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View Full Version : There's no Defiance in my Defiance - DLC?



Remag Div
07-03-2013, 10:00 AM
I've been thinking and while I originally didn't think it was a big deal to have the game and show be in separate areas, I'm starting to believe it was a very big mistake by the bigwigs.

The main problem with the game that keeps popping up is the total lack of a social aspect and central community hub. Trion did a lot of things right in terms of gameplay. Controls are tight and responsive, real time gun play is unique in an online game like this, weapon variation, vehicles are fun, etc. They developed the core of the game pretty well, but then really didn't know how to build on it.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a new player who may have watched the show then wanted to buy the game. They end up in a game and a location that's nothing like the show they just watched. For a show that's so heavily entrenched in politics and social interaction, the game is anything but. We get to shoot things. A lot of things. We have Challenge Hours asking us to shoot thousands of Hellbugs within an hour. It just seems very basic and pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Another thing, the game world is SO static. Even when you happen upon ranches and small pockets of towns they seem abandoned, and the NPC's that are there stand frozen in time. I guess they didn't expect players to want the option to do things like just shoot the shtako at the In N Out, browse a bustling marketplace street, or maybe even catch glimpses of show characters walking around. It would just feel more immersive and would do a much better job at portraying the crossover from show to game much better then they currently do.

It would give that immediate connection to the show, instead of being in a barren, lawless wasteland where we sometimes get show characters to show up for a 5 minute episode mission and then randomly disappear.

With DLC anything is possible, but I think they initially dropped the ball having the game and show be completely separate location-wise.

ncanning
07-03-2013, 10:06 AM
I just wanted too say, I think they need to add to the world instead of changing it all the time. I mean the volge emergencies replace the old miners and raider roadblocks and such therefore not adding to the game play just changing it, and for new players thats a big loss and for old players... well it's just a temp entertainment improvement.

Should limit emergencies types too areas till they are ready to expand the world. Mutants in tam, raiders in marin, darkmatter in san fran, etc...

noladude
07-03-2013, 10:08 AM
I've been thinking and while I originally didn't think it was a big deal to have the game and show be in separate areas, I'm starting to believe it was a very big mistake by the bigwigs.

The main problem with the game that keeps popping up is the total lack of a social aspect and central community hub. Trion did a lot of things right in terms of gameplay. Controls are tight and responsive, real time gun play is unique in an online game like this, weapon variation, vehicles are fun, etc. They developed the core of the game pretty well, but then really didn't know how to build on it.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a new player who may have watched the show then wanted to buy the game. They end up in a game and a location that's nothing like the show they just watched. For a show that's so heavily entrenched in politics and social interaction, the game is anything but. We get to shoot things. A lot of things. We have Challenge Hours asking us to shoot thousands of Hellbugs within an hour. It just seems very basic and pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Another thing, the game world is SO static. Even when you happen upon ranches and small pockets of towns they seem abandoned, and the NPC's that are there stand frozen in time. I guess they didn't expect players to want the option to do things like just shoot the shtako at the In N Out, browse a bustling marketplace street, or maybe even catch glimpses of show characters walking around. It would just feel more immersive and would do a much better job at portraying the crossover from show to game much better then they currently do.

It would give that immediate connection to the show, instead of being in a barren, lawless wasteland where we sometimes get show characters to show up for a 5 minute episode mission and then randomly disappear.

With DLC anything is possible, but I think they initially dropped the ball having the game and show be completely separate location-wise.

Sir I agree with everything you just said. I still love this game though.

Shogo_Yahagi
07-03-2013, 10:49 AM
I don't think the problem is that they're in two different locations, it's that (as you mentioned, it is SO static) and there is just no anchor. It's just too diffuse. There's stuff everywhere, but no real reason to be anywhere in particular. There's no there there. They haven't really done anything with the new location.

Outside the main mission, the NPCs are glassy-eyed zombies. They don't remember you or interact with you in any way, and you have no reason to interact with them. I'd gladly pass on seeing Datak and The White Heat wander past if Ara Shondu would talk to me once in a while. Maybe she could give me the Paradise contract instead of just going to the menu... Give her a couple of different interactions depending on where you are in the story mode. There's a fast travel point right there. Would it kill us to run over to her desk to activate the contract?

Likewise, that little weasel Varus could offer us Soleptor contracts. It's not like there's really any other reason to go to the Crater.

Hey, Rosa. How's it going? Remember when we saved your girlfriend and killed that guy that killed your dad and I got you that giant robot? Good times... good times... Uh, are you OK, Rosa? I know you're busy with uh... whatever that is, but maybe you could you look up and say hi when I show up?

Maybe Coop could roll up once in while when we're doing an emergency near Iron Demon Ranch. He is a Lawkeeper, after all. He can't be bothered to step outside his front gate to break up a carjacking?

Hey, Tork, did you know there are Raiders camped out at that little cluster of farm buildings just down the street from your house all the time? Don't you hate those jerks? I bet you'd like to drive by and drop some rockets on those clowns once in a while to remind them who's boss, wouldn't you?

What's Cass up to when she's not showing E-Rep how it's done? She was all over the place, and then she just vanished. I know she's a busy girl, but she could call once in a while, right? Take some of the load off EGO and give me a heads-up when something good is going on.

We have plenty of NPCs here that they could use if they wanted to. They just don't seem to want to.

Kroesis
07-03-2013, 11:04 AM
I'd be on board with checking with NPC's for contracts. Makes things seem that little more interactive in the world.

D351
07-03-2013, 12:08 PM
They just need to add drunkeness and mini-games at the crater... I like the worlds split, but it would be nive to have the bar more social and bar-like... poker sound good?

KrypAl
07-03-2013, 12:31 PM
TBH the OP is going a long the right lines

My biggest disappointment has been that the amount of actual interaction between the game and program are extremely limited. I would have loved to see a lot more going on between the two rather than the current links.

brandileigh
07-03-2013, 12:47 PM
I agree we need more interaction in the world, a hub/larger village with things to do where people could gather would be AWESOME and I've got my hopes pinning on the chat updates they say are coming....
Because if I want to watch the sunset, break down 50 weapons and chat with random people ( or friends ) that shouldn't require me to resort to a 3rd party program in hopes of a response.

Sdric
07-03-2013, 12:54 PM
The game Defiance is named after "the battle of Defiance", so is the city in the show.

As you can see both have nothing in common but the origin of their name.

Thus there is no reason to offer access with an uncorrelated city within the game.

It would rather result in problems for the TV-producer than in advantages for the players.

I appreciate the thought of a main town /community hub.
But not Defiance.

Remag Div
07-03-2013, 01:05 PM
The game Defiance is named after "the battle of Defiance", so is the city in the show.

As you can see both have nothing in common but the origin of their name.

Thus there is no reason to offer access with an uncorrelated city within the game.

I knew someone was going to bring that up!

I see what you're saying, but you have to look at it at face value. The show and town are called Defiance. The game is called Defiance. Yet they have little in common. I know if I was a new player I would be disappointed I cannot visit Defiance in the game. Yes, "everything" is called Defiance it seems like because of the Battle of Defiance, but new and potential players don't know or don't really care for that reasoning. Seems more like a scapegoat to me.


It would rather result in problems for the TV-producer than in advantages for the players.

Such as?

Sdric
07-03-2013, 01:17 PM
Whever Trion plans some kind of event or new contant in the city the show has to add it as well (in order to stay true to each other).

So either Trion would be completely handicapped or the TV producers would be forced to adapt, which costs them money.

Since it's synchron there also always would be the question "Hey, look I'm in that part of the city - have been online for a week! Why am I not in the show?"

Well, it would most likely not disturb the players too much.

However it would break the concept of synchron co-existance.
Due to player interaction a paradox would be created that'd make all crossover content illogical.

(Unless they create some kind of weird parallel-universe theory, lol)

Remember, they even timed the appearance of Nolan in the game to a believeable travel time out of the bay to enter the show a few days later.

Remag Div
07-03-2013, 01:27 PM
Whever Trion plans some kind of event or new contant in the city the show has to add it as well (in order to stay true to each other).

So either Trion would be completely handicapped or the TV producers would be forced to adapt, which costs them money.

I thought this was the whole point.

This project was labeled as an "unprecedented level of cross-media interaction between game and show." The more I see the more it seems like that was a bunch of PR bullshtako or they simply bit off way more then they can chew.

Or... simply have in-game events occur outside of the town. The town would simply be a social hub/marketplace players could visit.


Since it's synchron there also always would be the question "Hey, look I'm in that part of the city - have been online for a week! Why am I not in the show?"

However it would break the concept of synchron co-existance.
Due to player interaction a paradox would be created that'd make all crossover content illogical.

Well, that would just come down to the common sense of the player. I hope no one would actually think if they logged out in the game at the town square that they would complain they didn't see themselves on the show. haha

Sdric
07-03-2013, 01:35 PM
Well,

you can't apply common sense of the player to this issue.
It'ld still be inconsistent.

I totally understand your point.

But that doesn't change that fact that I'ld create a paradox.


One can say much about Trion - but when it comes to crossover content they're damn careful to avoid logical conflicts.

DoomPatrol85
07-03-2013, 01:41 PM
I've been thinking and while I originally didn't think it was a big deal to have the game and show be in separate areas, I'm starting to believe it was a very big mistake by the bigwigs.

The main problem with the game that keeps popping up is the total lack of a social aspect and central community hub. Trion did a lot of things right in terms of gameplay. Controls are tight and responsive, real time gun play is unique in an online game like this, weapon variation, vehicles are fun, etc. They developed the core of the game pretty well, but then really didn't know how to build on it.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a new player who may have watched the show then wanted to buy the game. They end up in a game and a location that's nothing like the show they just watched. For a show that's so heavily entrenched in politics and social interaction, the game is anything but. We get to shoot things. A lot of things. We have Challenge Hours asking us to shoot thousands of Hellbugs within an hour. It just seems very basic and pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Another thing, the game world is SO static. Even when you happen upon ranches and small pockets of towns they seem abandoned, and the NPC's that are there stand frozen in time. I guess they didn't expect players to want the option to do things like just shoot the shtako at the In N Out, browse a bustling marketplace street, or maybe even catch glimpses of show characters walking around. It would just feel more immersive and would do a much better job at portraying the crossover from show to game much better then they currently do.

It would give that immediate connection to the show, instead of being in a barren, lawless wasteland where we sometimes get show characters to show up for a 5 minute episode mission and then randomly disappear.

With DLC anything is possible, but I think they initially dropped the ball having the game and show be completely separate location-wise.

I agree with all of that and the fact that E-Rep is seen as good guys in the game and then when we see them in the show their completely ****s and totally act like ****'s. Then in the game the one chick that looks like the doctor in the show is called out in an data recorder as her daughter but on the show she acts like they just worked together. Theres alot of lack luster that connections the game and show plus the fact they claim it takes two weeks for people to travel between them and then in one week that girl escapes is in the game and then in one weeks time left the game and is back on the show in the last episode. Plus the whole bounty for nolan was talked about in the show way before it was even in the game.

Nadir
07-04-2013, 05:20 PM
I'm hoping at some point we'll be able to join factions like e-rep, votanis collective/spirit riders etc

Rebel Raven
07-04-2013, 05:36 PM
I don't mind the game, and show being split in location from the game. It helps people not end up complaining that they shot Nolan, and Irisa and they're fine in the show, or trying to suggest that if enough people kill an NPC that they're killed off in the show, or something along those lines. <.<
The ability to not have the 2 worlds directly impact eachother was a good call.

I do agree that the worlds of the show, and game are a bit too diffirent, though. The game world needs at least one place like the town of Defiance, and a more interactive world in general, IMO.

SpiritumLiberum
07-04-2013, 05:39 PM
I've been thinking and while I originally didn't think it was a big deal to have the game and show be in separate areas, I'm starting to believe it was a very big mistake by the bigwigs.

The main problem with the game that keeps popping up is the total lack of a social aspect and central community hub. Trion did a lot of things right in terms of gameplay. Controls are tight and responsive, real time gun play is unique in an online game like this, weapon variation, vehicles are fun, etc. They developed the core of the game pretty well, but then really didn't know how to build on it.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a new player who may have watched the show then wanted to buy the game. They end up in a game and a location that's nothing like the show they just watched. For a show that's so heavily entrenched in politics and social interaction, the game is anything but. We get to shoot things. A lot of things. We have Challenge Hours asking us to shoot thousands of Hellbugs within an hour. It just seems very basic and pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Another thing, the game world is SO static. Even when you happen upon ranches and small pockets of towns they seem abandoned, and the NPC's that are there stand frozen in time. I guess they didn't expect players to want the option to do things like just shoot the shtako at the In N Out, browse a bustling marketplace street, or maybe even catch glimpses of show characters walking around. It would just feel more immersive and would do a much better job at portraying the crossover from show to game much better then they currently do.

It would give that immediate connection to the show, instead of being in a barren, lawless wasteland where we sometimes get show characters to show up for a 5 minute episode mission and then randomly disappear.

With DLC anything is possible, but I think they initially dropped the ball having the game and show be completely separate location-wise.


Maybe there is a lead up to content being released with Defiance and lots of other main hubs/citys?

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
07-04-2013, 06:14 PM
Yeah. It's pretty much like having a Terminator Movie with NO Terminators lol.

Korben Reynolds
07-04-2013, 07:51 PM
I agree with all of that and the fact that E-Rep is seen as good guys in the game and then when we see them in the show their completely ****s and totally act like ****'s. Then in the game the one chick that looks like the doctor in the show is called out in an data recorder as her daughter but on the show she acts like they just worked together. Theres alot of lack luster that connections the game and show plus the fact they claim it takes two weeks for people to travel between them and then in one week that girl escapes is in the game and then in one weeks time left the game and is back on the show in the last episode. Plus the whole bounty for nolan was talked about in the show way before it was even in the game.

I don't want to come off like a ****, but I'm gonna bullet point this just to keep it all separate...


I think that the E-Rep come off as good guys in the game because they don't have any pull way out in the Bay area and they need help from someone. If Grant could've called in to the Earth Republic for help or reinforcements after the strato crashed, I'm sure they'd be crapping all over us Ark Hunters.



I think I missed that connection with Eren and Doc Yewll. I'll have to go look for that.



Nolan and Irisa weren't heading directly for Defiance when they left the Bay, which is why it took them longer to get there. I get the impression that they were looking for arkfalls along the way so they could make use of that crystal, otherwise they got really lucky on their first try. Plus, we know Nolan had at least one "situation" with a married woman and her weird alien pheromones and that didn't happen in the game.



Varus put a bounty out for Nolan almost immediately, but he had no idea where Nolan was and no one in the Bay area has seen him since. It wasn't until recently that Varus became impatient enough to hire professionals like Echelon and through them find out where Nolan is located. Of course, we still don't know how this is going to pay off in the show since Rynn is the only one that knows they are coming and she doesn't appear to be in the mood to tell Nolan.



More to the original topic, I like that the game and show are in separate locations since it gives us some perspective on the story and let's us see more of the world. Plus, there isn't a whole lot going on in former St. Louis these days. Sure they have a Volge attack or hellbugs popping up every so often, but I'll happily take a new Pursuit over a "Get out and vote" tie-in quest.

You had to look carefully to get through the PR speak, but they've been saying for a while now that they couldn't do much tie-in content for a TV season that had to be completed before the game even launched. Now that the game is live and they know what players are looking for, they can develop the tie-ins for Season 2 along with the actual show and things could potentially become a lot more complex. Unfortunately, getting to that point is going to require a lot of patience.

Sorry for the wall of text. :rolleyes:

CyrusKhane
07-04-2013, 08:06 PM
I think it's kinda dumb that in the game, Rynn seemed to take off to tell Nolan that Echelon mercs were looking for him, and then in the show, she just shows up and does what she does, rather than helping with what she could, and letting nolan know he was being hunted. (Worded to avoid spoilers for those that haven't watched)

Anyway, we should be given access to an Overland to Defiance during the shows layover between seasons. Players are happy, show writers don't have to cast for and come up with a reason why there's a gigantic army of heavily armed ark hunters strolling around Defiance.

And, the pilot episode of the show, when Nolan saves Datak's brat from Rafe, they were playing some kind of card game. Would be nice to see that in game at the Crater, with betting and everything. Also would be cool to watch/bet on Defiance-style cockfights. Like, imagine a Hulker going toe to toe with a Monarch, or a DM deathsquad versus some Volge troopers. That would be awesome.

Shogo_Yahagi
07-04-2013, 08:12 PM
I think it's kinda dumb that in the game, Rynn seemed to take off to tell Nolan that Echelon mercs were looking for him, and then in the show, she just shows up and does what she does, rather than helping with what she could, and letting nolan know he was being hunted. (Worded to avoid spoilers for those that haven't watched)
(Wording carefully to avoid spoilers) I think Rynn was planning to go warn Nolan, but then she received some delayed information from a mutual friend that changed her plan.

CyrusKhane
07-04-2013, 08:20 PM
Didn't even think about that, which is odd, because in the episode, she mentioned the mutual friend. Oh well. Lol.

thejx4
07-04-2013, 08:38 PM
I don't think the problem is that they're in two different locations, it's that (as you mentioned, it is SO static) and there is just no anchor. It's just too diffuse. There's stuff everywhere, but no real reason to be anywhere in particular. There's no there there. They haven't really done anything with the new location.

Outside the main mission, the NPCs are glassy-eyed zombies. They don't remember you or interact with you in any way, and you have no reason to interact with them. I'd gladly pass on seeing Datak and The White Heat wander past if Ara Shondu would talk to me once in a while. Maybe she could give me the Paradise contract instead of just going to the menu... Give her a couple of different interactions depending on where you are in the story mode. There's a fast travel point right there. Would it kill us to run over to her desk to activate the contract?

Likewise, that little weasel Varus could offer us Soleptor contracts. It's not like there's really any other reason to go to the Crater.

Hey, Rosa. How's it going? Remember when we saved your girlfriend and killed that guy that killed your dad and I got you that giant robot? Good times... good times... Uh, are you OK, Rosa? I know you're busy with uh... whatever that is, but maybe you could you look up and say hi when I show up?

Maybe Coop could roll up once in while when we're doing an emergency near Iron Demon Ranch. He is a Lawkeeper, after all. He can't be bothered to step outside his front gate to break up a carjacking?

Hey, Tork, did you know there are Raiders camped out at that little cluster of farm buildings just down the street from your house all the time? Don't you hate those jerks? I bet you'd like to drive by and drop some rockets on those clowns once in a while to remind them who's boss, wouldn't you?

What's Cass up to when she's not showing E-Rep how it's done? She was all over the place, and then she just vanished. I know she's a busy girl, but she could call once in a while, right? Take some of the load off EGO and give me a heads-up when something good is going on.

We have plenty of NPCs here that they could use if they wanted to. They just don't seem to want to.

You're forgetting that we can't talk.

Shogo_Yahagi
07-04-2013, 08:45 PM
You're forgetting that we can't talk.

And you're forgetting that they're adding voice options with the first DLC.

Aesu
07-04-2013, 09:15 PM
I understand the reasons why we can't go to defiance. Set director decides in the middle of a shoot to remove some decorative pieces because they are getting in the way. Content is already in the game, people notice the difference.. Complain.

They decide to have a story arc with some farmers, the farms are already modelled in game in the area around defiance, but they aren't what the set needs, and the game devs have to take time out of bug fixing to remodel a section of defiance.

Someone in the show is set to die in episode x. The game devs have some recorded speech from characters around defiance lamenting the loss. Bugs ensue or a player digs thru game files and the great PR planning around episode x is wasted. The pr money spent goes down the drain.

The show wants to have a fire. The game would need to have those sections remodelled for the eposide then fixed. Game devs dont have time, tell the tv guys to scrap it.

All these are examples of how if they dont allow some differences in between game and show the artists making the storys sets and characters will be hampered. We lose out on some creative stuff.

Korben Reynolds
07-04-2013, 09:23 PM
And you're forgetting that they're adding voice options with the first DLC.

I could be wrong, but I think the voice options are only for emotes and such. I don't think there is any plan to have us speak in cutscenes.

Shogo_Yahagi
07-05-2013, 06:35 AM
I could be wrong, but I think the voice options are only for emotes and such. I don't think there is any plan to have us speak in cutscenes.
Oh, I think you're right. I don't think they're planning to add voices to cutscenes, but as long as they've got the voice actors in, they could also have each one record a couple of generic greetings that they could use to lead into responses from the NPCs, and they could do double duty as a greeting emote for other players. They never call us by name, there's no reason we would have to call them by name. If they were to have the NPCs give us missions or contracts, they could even add a thanks audio clip, which is another emote many people have been asking for. By carefully scripting the interactions and keeping them brief, they could make it seem more alive and add audio that does double duty.

You could even mix it up. Add three or four greetings, a couple of affirmative and negative answers, a couple of thanks, and a couple of farewells. None of those have to be more than a couple of words long, so the total data size is negligible, even if you do it for each voice option. Then, in the settings tab, players could choose which version they want to be their default clip for that emote. Et voila, not only do the NPC actions seem more dynamic, because they can be different from day to day, but the players won't all be using the same audio emotes. Variety and customization. They're good things.

Do I think they're going to add that? Probably not. If they did, though, it would make the game seem less dead, and they could give players more ways to interact at the same time.

As far as that goes, they went this long having people interact with our character even though they never speak, so they could continue with that theme even without adding audio for us.

N3gativeCr33p
07-05-2013, 06:51 AM
I just wanted too say, I think they need to add to the world instead of changing it all the time. I mean the volge emergencies replace the old miners and raider roadblocks and such therefore not adding to the game play just changing it, and for new players thats a big loss and for old players... well it's just a temp entertainment improvement.

Should limit emergencies types too areas till they are ready to expand the world. Mutants in tam, raiders in marin, darkmatter in san fran, etc...

If they're ever hiring outside the company for conceptual ideas, you would get my vote. Well said!

NinjaofSmoke
07-05-2013, 10:14 AM
A little NPC interaction would be a good thing, not that your character says much to begin with, just agrees to what everyone else tells him/her to do and gets the job done as expected. I wouldn't mind you had to chose your interactions with them whether you wanted to go kill this or that or just simply tell them to piss off. Walking up to them for the contracts and then send you off to kill some more thing like a rampaging psychopath I can deal with.

As I recall Cass said you owes me a drink as well as Coop and Tork. I even stole a six pack of warm beer from Raiders and still haven gotten wasted yet. If then could make the NPCs interactive that's fine and dandy. But don't promise a person alcohol and not own up to a drinking binge with the NPCs. Drink to much and wake up in a Hellbug next isn't so bad. It'll teach people drinking Votan jek ain't about shtako.

We have more interactive with with chickens and pows in the game then the sorry dregs hanging out and telling jokes around Shondu's Consulate. No lie, seriously try this and you'll laugh out of your chair, epic battle music starts when you start killing the infinite re spawn chickens outside of Top Notch across the stress. Pows run when you shoot one bullet and are now known as your enemies. And all world enemies are pissed at you simply because you driving by them.

The only NPC interaction I had was when the game first came out and one of the pursuits involved those lanterns. I found a group of people and a three interact with NPCs spot showed up. Dance, drink, sleep. WTH happen to those? Now all we got is epic battle music with infinite re spawn chickens.

thejx4
07-05-2013, 11:49 AM
And you're forgetting that they're adding voice options with the first DLC.

And you're forgetting that they're for emotes and callouts