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View Full Version : Save the Saw!!!



calicoflo
07-11-2013, 08:58 PM
As some of you may know, trion's has once again cut it's nose to spite his face. In other words they want to nerf the SAW so that it sucks like the rest of the lmg's instead of buffing the rest. Why is this a good idea? The SAW is probably the most beloved gun in the game. Why would you ruin it. You have enough issues keeping the people who are playing entertained. Why actively aggravate them. Save the SAW!!! there are already a mountain of crappy guns, lets not add another.

dude26212
07-11-2013, 09:04 PM
im starting to think they could give everyone a nuke launcher and everyone would complain if they tried to nerf it

MattN
07-11-2013, 11:09 PM
It's about time they nerf Saw, I'm sick of using it for everything....

Now if they could increase lmg/ar pool to 750. Let smg share ammo with pistol and increase pool to 1000. There are so many guns pathetically weak and in urgent need of buff, guns that nobody want to use.

Sdric
07-11-2013, 11:18 PM
Well,

I think the main reason people disagree about the SAW nerf is the context.
Is a SAW overpowered compared to other LMGs, TACC, Blast and FRC AR?
Yes it is.

It it OP compared to Infectors, Shotguns, SMGs, Bolt Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, (or Pistols*PvE)?
No, it's not.
Note: Grenade Launchers very hugely in power depending on the plattform. PC players might not share this view.

Most of the players who appreciate the nerf are either AR or LMG users who compare it within those two classes.
However, if we compare it in a greater context those both classes suffer from some serious flaws.*
Flaws that won't get fixed by nerfing SAW, but only by improving other guns.

*E.g. low accuracy, huge damage falloff or a bad fire rate.

Thus requesting an overall buff for LMGs and ARs is valid in my eyes.
Also it should be done before taking further steps.



Does the SAW require a nerf?
We can talk about that once the other guns are fixed.


Do you, dear reader, disagree?
You're certain that those weapon classes are fine?

Well, try this.


Grab a friend who is high ego, got his 2k shield 6/9 def perks.
Join a few rounds of PvP until you join different team.
Pick a FRC Assault Rifle.

Now test the damage at 24m (Infector range 1) and at 48m (immunizer range).
Note: Their range can be even higher through weapon rolls.
Note: Infectors deal 735 damage after 5 blows, regardless of range.
Note: Heashots are 10 times easier with an Infector.
Now fire the magazine into your friends shield with bursts of 3 shoots.

You'll notice:

Your weapons accuracy is a joke. (No chance of proving skill through headshots)
The damage loss at range is just plain rediciulous
Assault Rifles & LMG damage is a joke if you compare it to other weapon types.



Just do it.
Done?

Now please tell me that ARs and LMGs are fine.

SuperMicrobe
07-11-2013, 11:32 PM
100% agree. Ammo pools are not aligned correctly. I understand that it's a game but please smg ammo and Lmg ammo don't mix ( no possible way you would fit Lmg .45 into smg 9 mm). That said and on to the next point, higher ego should receive a reduction in ark cost when playing with the salvage matrix for now. (If........... They decide to add perks or something for higher level players (( I understand the need for balance but time and effort put I to leveling should still be rewarded with some type of bonus.))

crasher
07-12-2013, 02:10 AM
It's about time they nerf Saw, I'm sick of using it for everything....

Now if they could increase lmg/ar pool to 750. Let smg share ammo with pistol and increase pool to 1000. There are so many guns pathetically weak and in urgent need of buff, guns that nobody want to use.

I would like everyone who says the SAW is overpowered to go thru Motherlode with an AR, and post a screenshot of their total.
No SAW, No Wolfhound, or Wolverine, either.
I know somebody is going to use a completely out-of-context weapon like a Det or RL and say it's OK, but thats not what we're talking about here.
Use a Disruptor if you want.
Then do it with a SAW.
Then do it with a Wolfhound.

Tell me again how SAWs do so well, but everyone who posted pix of huge A-fall totals almost always said you were foolish to use anything BUT a Wolfhound if you wanted the big numbers.

Rally?
You get the big numbers with a pistol, but a machine-gun is over powered?
A Squad-Automatic-Weapon is over powered?

The Oncoming Storm
07-12-2013, 02:18 AM
SAWs are meant to be powerful, if they wanna nerf it then the recoil while standing, the falloff damage, or the accuracy while standing would make more sense...

Erei
07-12-2013, 02:33 AM
Well,

I think the main reason people disagree about the SAW nerf is the context.
Is a SAW overpowered compared to other LMGs, TACC, Blast and FRC AR?
Yes it is.
That's not really difficult to find a weapon more OP than a disruptor, a thunder or a rocker. Doesn't mean they are op, but the LMG are ridiculous. Except for the SAW. They nerf the SAW, which mean the LMG category will be useless.
I wouldn't have as much a problem if they had balanced the LMG, but it simply not true. Starting by nerfing the best gun in the category, before buffing the ones that really need to, if they ever do that, and when, is beyond stupid.

Nilxain
07-12-2013, 11:05 AM
IMO if they do anything to the SAW they should make it less accurate. The damage being high is appropriate for this kind of weapon but given it's weight, the size of the bullet, and the number of rounds, it really shouldn't be as accurate as it is. I mean I can damn near snipe with my SAW...

IRL guns have many different advantages and disadvantages, and I think that's what Trion is going for here - "pick from a subset of weapons to fit your needs." Of course they want to give the player enough freedom to not feel like they have to use a specific weapon for every task, and they feel the SAW has become that way - which it kind of has.

I really don't think the SAW's damage should be nerfed, but I do think its accuracy should be. And, some of the other weapons should be buffed - Blast Rifle I'm looking at YOU. Damage is not the only way to buff/nerf a weapon.

Burntpowder
07-12-2013, 11:23 AM
It's about time they nerf Saw, I'm sick of using it for everything.....

lmao So because YOU can't stop using a gun, they should nerf it. Perfect sense. Nothing but socialist here...

Nilxain
07-12-2013, 11:56 AM
lmao So because YOU can't stop using a gun, they should nerf it. Perfect sense. Nothing but socialist here...

I'm just curios, do you genuinely not understand the meaning of his comment?

Burntpowder
07-12-2013, 12:08 PM
Unless it was sarcasm, which there was no indication, then perhaps you do not? I'm all against nerfing anymore guns at this point, I'd rather see things get buffed.

Nilxain
07-12-2013, 12:59 PM
Unless it was sarcasm, which there was no indication, then perhaps you do not? I'm all against nerfing anymore guns at this point, I'd rather see things get buffed.

Ok, you actually didn't understand - which is good I thought you were just being an *** and trolling him lol. What he was saying (poorly it seems) was that because the SAW is so good he feels like he is REQUIRED to use it in too many situations. So it's not that he literally can't stop using it, but instead that because of its superiority he feels like he has to because it is simply the best choice for most situations ATM. This is common because it is natural to find the strongest weapon and use it.

The problem that Trion has noticed (through metrics) and is trying to fix (but failing) is that the SAW has become unbalanced in its use. If you do the math on it, the SAW is "better" than many of the other weapons in the LMG/SMG/AR category (and really the other categories too). But does this mean that the SAW is over powered, that some of the others are under powered, or a little bit of both? I say both. The SAW is too accurate but the damage is fine, and some of the others do too little damage etc. Example:

Pulser – DPS =2655 (SMG) 1.5crit, 1.5 reload, 55mag
Disruptor – DPS = 1035 (LMG - bursts) 1.0crit, 4.5reload, 60 mag
VBI AR – DPS = 2664 (AR) 1.5crit, 2.4 reload, 45mag
Blast Rifle – DPS = 600 (AR) 1.1crit, 3.0 reload, 50 mag
SAW – DPS = 3200 (LMG) 1.5crit, 4.5reload, 85mag
Rocker – DPS = 4248 (LMG – bursts) 1.6crit, 4.3 reload, 75 mag

(The Rocker and the VBI AR numbers are skewed because I don't feel like adjusting it to account for my personal bonuses, but they are close enough. All of the others weapons are adjusted because I got the stats off the vendor.)

Now, this example is FAR from exhaustive, but it shows the disparity in DPS (which is per mag btw, and does not factor in the pause for bursts - which is why I just put burst after). Without going into it all, basically through playing the game people have migrated to the SAW for damage output because they have noticed consistently good results compared to their other choices - and if the above numbers are telling at all you can see why.

Personally I have put much more thought into it the above than I have shown, and compared quite a few more of the variables and weapons. The SAW is among the best weapon choices for DPS situations. But more importantly, it's not the only good choice and more over there are actually some "bad choices" which IMO should be fixed instead - again I'm looking at you Blast Rifle.

FlippyCake
07-12-2013, 01:07 PM
I don't really see the nerf they did.
All I see is that it went from 404 base to 400 base. Not really significant at all.

Burntpowder
07-12-2013, 01:20 PM
I don't really see the nerf they did.
All I see is that it went from 404 base to 400 base. Not really significant at all.

Because it hasn't happened yet.

calicoflo
07-12-2013, 05:39 PM
well with the SAW out of the way, the countdown to the wolfhound nerf begins

fang1192
07-12-2013, 06:42 PM
well with the SAW out of the way, the countdown to the wolfhound nerf begins

...you must only be half hearted in trying to save the SAW considering the nerf hasnt happened yet.

calicoflo
07-12-2013, 06:52 PM
...you must only be half hearted in trying to save the SAW considering the nerf hasnt happened yet.
i just wanted to have a discussion about the SAW nerfing before it happen so that trion could actually see whats left of the community really thinks about their decision.Unfortunately trion's pattern seems to be to find the guns most like,then nerf it.

Felis Menari
07-12-2013, 06:52 PM
I'm not terribly surprised that a nerf is in store for the SAW, I just hope Trion doesn't go overboard with it (I like LMGs with large mags and big damage; it would be a shame for the one that suits my playstyle to be nerfed into oblivion). Though, I think Trion will have to go overboard with the nerf in order to bring the SAW down to the level of the other LMGs (in other words, turn it into crap).


IMO if they do anything to the SAW they should make it less accurate. The damage being high is appropriate for this kind of weapon but given it's weight, the size of the bullet, and the number of rounds, it really shouldn't be as accurate as it is. I mean I can damn near snipe with my SAW...

IRL guns have many different advantages and disadvantages, and I think that's what Trion is going for here - "pick from a subset of weapons to fit your needs." Of course they want to give the player enough freedom to not feel like they have to use a specific weapon for every task, and they feel the SAW has become that way - which it kind of has.

I really don't think the SAW's damage should be nerfed, but I do think its accuracy should be. And, some of the other weapons should be buffed - Blast Rifle I'm looking at YOU. Damage is not the only way to buff/nerf a weapon.

That thought has occurred to me (lowering SAW accuracy). As it currently stands the SAW is just as accurate as the VBI/EMC full-auto ARs, and that seems kind of silly to me.

CptBadger
07-12-2013, 07:40 PM
They have no idea what they are doing. If they nerf the SAW, all LMGs will basically become useless.

But why do we even bother with our 'feedback' ? Certainly the designers that made this a 65/100 metacritic game MUST know better, right ?

Colif
07-12-2013, 10:28 PM
Unfortunately trion's pattern seems to be to find the guns most like,then nerf it.

This is actually what they probably do, as I assume their aim is to have people using everything, not just certain items. So if a large percentage of users all use 1 method, that method needs to be looked at. Its pretty clear they don't want all the guns to be high dps, so bringing the ones that stand out down to the others is better in their eyes than making all the other guns of that type better. Some guns do need help though.

MattN
07-13-2013, 09:20 AM
Slight nerf the SAW only, to 360-380dmg. Buff the other LMG to closer range in effective DPS. Combine SMG/pistol ammo pool, increase to 1000, AR/LMG to 700.

So many weapons need urgent buff.

3rdpig
07-13-2013, 09:37 AM
They have no idea what they are doing. If they nerf the SAW, all LMGs will basically become useless.

But why do we even bother with our 'feedback' ? Certainly the designers that made this a 65/100 metacritic game MUST know better, right ?

You just fail to understand their brilliance. After the SAW nerf they'll carefully watch to see which is the next over used gun and then nerf that too, then the next, and the next and the next, until FINALLY people start using the Disrupter. At this point all guns will finally be balanced.

NIKOLA
07-13-2013, 10:10 AM
the SAW is a mediocre weapon. It is the lazy mans weapon.
gamers are lazy, hence its popularity.
NERF away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!