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Tilarta
07-14-2013, 04:00 PM
After a particularly spectular trouncing by a boss, I decided to take a good hard look at my skills to figure out what went wrong.

And well, I was disappointed by reading the stats:
Tilarta's Tank Build Skills (http://forums.defiance.com/album.php?albumid=525)

3%Regeneration
+225HP
6% Less Damage
+30% Damage

Now granted, those last two skills aren't complete yet, but still, that's pretty bad.

For example, I take 6% less damage from a one shot kill, I'm still dead!
And my health regen wasn't enough to keep me alive between the his two shot kill skills.

In any other game that employed this mechanic, I outhealed the damage inflicted, which kept me in the fight long enough to finish it.

But this, well, I'm getting the impression I could remove all these skills (except for Overcharge) and still fight effectively.
Which means they're pointless in even being there in the first place!


If i invest my ego points in this build, I want to feel like I'm actually getting more powerful, not a placebo that doesn't help me in anyway whatsoever during practical gameplay.

Cavadus
07-14-2013, 04:02 PM
Because this game is a shooter and shooters are skill based. If you're looking for RPG-style progressions play an RPG.

And some give pretty huge bonuses. Thick Skinned and Escape Artist come to mind. Rear Guard as well. A bunch of the crouch/stand-still ones between Decoy and Cloak. There are more.

Tilarta
07-14-2013, 04:16 PM
So were the games I had in mind!

They were a Shooter style games and my defense rating was pretty formidable.
Like I said, they kept me in the fight long enough to finish it.

But this game, I don't feel like anything is really helping.

Overcharge does in a pinch, but against the really tough enemies, it doesn't even scratch them before they finish me.

mikeintheshell
07-14-2013, 04:25 PM
ALL but 30% dmg are useless IMO. I too had those "general" perks with all builds. But your weapon type makes a huge difference when equipping perks.

As for survival, find a respark shield iirc. 3 sec delay time @ 40% recharge is godly. And if you find one with health regen you are set. Yeah more HP is nice but with that respark shield + rolling, you will not need it.

Hannova
07-14-2013, 04:54 PM
Because this game is a shooter and shooters are skill based. If you're looking for RPG-style progressions play an RPG.

Gotta agree. I don't know who/what this 'boss' is that you were fighting, but there aren't any in the game that can't be done with the gear you start with and no equipped perks.

Tilarta
07-14-2013, 07:04 PM
Remind me to throw that at the guys who claim it's easy!

Because they say the exact opposite!

Wtflag
07-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Given that you can unlock all nine perks slots at ego 1000, it doesn't make much of a difference if the powers are stronger or weaker in PVP.

As for in PVE, the game is easy enough not to require further buffs. There is really no point to finally having a strong enemy in the form of volge and then turn around and buff players again to trivialize them.

Heinzlee
07-14-2013, 07:34 PM
After a particularly spectular trouncing by a boss, I decided to take a good hard look at my skills to figure out what went wrong.

And well, I was disappointed by reading the stats:
Tilarta's Tank Build Skills (http://forums.defiance.com/album.php?albumid=525)

3%Regeneration
+225HP
6% Less Damage
+30% Damage

Now granted, those last two skills aren't complete yet, but still, that's pretty bad.

For example, I take 6% less damage from a one shot kill, I'm still dead!
And my health regen wasn't enough to keep me alive between the his two shot kill skills.

In any other game that employed this mechanic, I outhealed the damage inflicted, which kept me in the fight long enough to finish it.

But this, well, I'm getting the impression I could remove all these skills (except for Overcharge) and still fight effectively.
Which means they're pointless in even being there in the first place!


If i invest my ego points in this build, I want to feel like I'm actually getting more powerful, not a placebo that doesn't help me in anyway whatsoever during practical gameplay.

If you're going to get fortitude, get thick skin as well.
That will effectively double the HP bonus when your shield breaks.

There is no build in this game that will allow you to just tank hits.
The closest is a crazy proc syphon weapon that just replenishes you over and over.

Have you tried standing behind cover?
That doesn't cost you any perks at all.

A s0t
07-14-2013, 07:40 PM
shhhh. they will nerf the skills next

fang1192
07-14-2013, 07:48 PM
The closest you can get to a tank:

1. Cellular Armor
2. Thick skin
3. Regeneration
4. Fortitude
5. Fortified Stance
6. Hunker Down
7. Detachment
8. Insult to Injury
9. Blast Shield

Blur
Syphon SAW modded Catalyst Injector 2 and some nano synergy.
Rhino Shield
Bio grenade.

This is pretty much the absolute closest you can get to an unmoving, unyielding tank and you can't maintain it longer than 20 or so seconds and it is very conditional.

Its smarter if you take cover.

0_d4RK_FaLLen
07-14-2013, 07:53 PM
Thank Trions idea of balancing PVE for PVP

Daholic
07-14-2013, 07:57 PM
Thank Trions idea of balancing PVE for PVP

Actually you can thank Trion for fooling everyone into thinking they can be tanks, oh my bad, half azz tanks, by stacking defensive perk.

KTCAOP
07-14-2013, 08:05 PM
Hrm, perhaps I should run a perk less, EGOless, only starting weapons character.

Who wants to give me the initial class to start with?

Organlegger
07-14-2013, 08:16 PM
Have you tried standing behind cover?
That doesn't cost you any perks at all.

Shhhhh they will nerf cover.

Tilarta
07-14-2013, 08:19 PM
Have you tried standing behind cover?


In the room I was in, there is no cover!
It's completely empty!

So I can't stand behind what is not there.

Organlegger
07-14-2013, 08:21 PM
In the room I was in, there is no cover!
It's completely empty!

So I can't stand behind what is not there.

Awesome. See they nerfed it already.

fang1192
07-14-2013, 08:30 PM
Is this the Nim or Jackleg fight?

Heinzlee
07-14-2013, 08:43 PM
Awesome. See they nerfed it already.

Lols!!!

Your series of replies cracked me up.

Heinzlee
07-14-2013, 08:52 PM
In the room I was in, there is no cover!
It's completely empty!

So I can't stand behind what is not there.

To be fair, in most places of the game, cover is available.

The only encounter I'm aware of that doesn't have cover is the beginning stage of the Nim fight.
Though it's not as if I remember the whole game so there might be others.

If you're talking about the beginning of the Nim fight, others have also mentioned that it's arguably the hardest part of the game since there is no cover. There are plenty of guides on how to do it, but basically it involves a lot of running / dodging while he attacks and putting the smack down on Nim when he's vulnerable.

I guess the Hulker at the bottom of soleptor excavation doesn't really have cover either. Once you learn his attacks, you should have time to roll out of the way of his bombs, slams and charges.

The end of Scrapworks doesn't really have cover either.

There you go... after a bit of thinking; cover is not universally available.

Time to get strafing and rolling.

As you experienced, you can't tank bosses.
And it's very hard to tank mobs as well.
Execept when it's just skitterlings.

Blondin
07-15-2013, 03:46 AM
If i invest my ego points in this build, I want to feel like I'm actually getting more powerful, not a placebo that doesn't help me in anyway whatsoever during practical gameplay.
Placebo is what you got in other games with vertical progression, it's illusional progression, here you have small bonuses but real bonuses.

In other games, when you're level 1, you do small damage and mobs have small life, then when you level up your damages grow but mobs life grow up too (which in fact is equal to lvl 1). The only powerful feeling you have, is about noobs.

In Defiance, you gain small bonuses, but mobs will not have more life, so it's real bonuses. If you pick your perks right, you can find good build, but don't try to find the holy trinity build, there is not, it's a shooter not a rpg.

Myria
07-15-2013, 04:02 AM
Placebo is what you got in other games with vertical progression, it's illusional progression, here you have small bonuses but real bonuses.

Did you just say "Small bonuses are real, big bonuses are fake"?

With a straight face?

Sorry, but whether it's 3% or 300% it's progression -- calling one "horizontal" and the other "vertical" is plain silly when he only real difference is one makes a noticeable difference and the other is so trivial that you may as well not bother.

Guess which is funner?

300% is no more "illusional" than 3%, it's always "just numbers", always. That's how we humans quantify our progress, regardless of whether you're talking athletic performance, paychecks, or physical characteristics. So can we please lose the mind bogglingly idiotic "tiny numbers are better because I gave them a new name" crap? People get enough grind in their real lives for naught save small progressions that make little meaningful difference in the end, more pointless levels of "progression" are sure the hell not what they're looking for in their leisure activities.

Blondin
07-15-2013, 04:23 AM
Did you just say "Small bonuses are real, big bonuses are fake"?

With a straight face?

Sorry, but whether it's 3% or 300% it's progression -- calling one "horizontal" and the other "vertical" is plain silly when he only real difference is one makes a noticeable difference and the other is so trivial that you may as well not bother.

Guess which is funner?

300% is no more "illusional" than 3%, it's always "just numbers", always. That's how we humans quantify our progress, regardless of whether you're talking athletic performance, paychecks, or physical characteristics. So can we please lose the mind bogglingly idiotic "tiny numbers are better because I gave them a new name" crap? People get enough grind in their real lives for naught save small progressions that make little meaningful difference in the end, more pointless levels of "progression" are sure the hell not what they're looking for in their leisure activities.
Hey mates, try to use your brain and think, you know if you do 100 damages on a mob who got 1 000 pts, it's the same if you do 100 000 damages on a mob who got 1 000 000 pts, that's vertical illusional progression, that's 0% more.
Here it's 100 damages on a mobs who got 1000, and 103 damages on a mob who got 1000, that's 3% more.

Do you see the difference or all of this is just numbers and all you need is to feel stronger than a noob?

janzig
07-15-2013, 07:22 AM
Hey mates, try to use your brain and think, you know if you do 100 damages on a mob who got 1 000 pts, it's the same if you do 100 000 damages on a mob who got 1 000 000 pts, that's vertical illusional progression, that's 0% more.
Here it's 100 damages on a mobs who got 1000, and 103 damages on a mob who got 1000, that's 3% more.

Do you see the difference or all of this is just numbers and all you need is to feel stronger than a noob?

Right on the money here. Sick of games inflating their numbers to make people 'feel like' they are more powerful, when its only just game scaling.

The perk bonuses do make a difference and in combination with weapon and skill bonuses can be HUGE. All the bonuses stack. Trion did this part right. Damage increases from perks, skills, weapons add up and are PER BULLET. Think about that when you consider how many rounds are fired during a typical fight.

Shogo_Yahagi
07-15-2013, 08:33 AM
Right on the money here. Sick of games inflating their numbers to make people 'feel like' they are more powerful, when its only just game scaling.

The perk bonuses do make a difference and in combination with weapon and skill bonuses can be HUGE. All the bonuses stack. Trion did this part right. Damage increases from perks, skills, weapons add up and are PER BULLET. Think about that when you consider how many rounds are fired during a typical fight.

Think about when you empty your magazine into an opponent and it's like you fired almost a whole extra bullet at them. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Sick nasty bonus, Trion!

CMac001
07-15-2013, 09:19 AM
To the original poster. The problem with your tank build is that you built it around the only ego power that is pure offense, i.e., no defense. Yes, you can you make overcharge work in a defensive situation -- but you are entirely dependent on your skills, perks, and equipment alone. Your ego power isn't supporting you defensively.

I'm not saying you should quit using overcharge. Just don't expect it to support you defensively. If that ego power best supports your play style and you don't want to build out another ego power, then, as other posters have mentioned, make sure you have a low-latency, fast recharge shield (respark) and get used to rolling, a lot. A rapid firing weapon with the syphon nano effect would also be helpful and possibly consider a BMG as well.

Good luck

dbcameron
07-15-2013, 10:16 AM
You're also talking about traditional face tanking. That is just not possible here, try like others have said to learn to dodge tank. If you keep up on damage most mobs with stay on you, though most bosses will target at random.

The only way to control attention is through decoy and really if you're looking at playing a tank you should be using this ability. Tanking in this game is all about crowd control seeing as there's no real agro mechanic in play.

In my opinion, this is a skill based game and the perks reflect that. They give small bonus because they are not here to let you out level the content. I'm sure most of us thought at our first arkfall "Wow this is rough" but three later and it's cake. That's skill progression, we're getting better at playing the content so it's easy. If the boss encounter you're playing is the hulker in 101 explosions then yeah there's no cover, but watch Era's video on how to use a wolfhound and you'll realize there's no need for cover. Or tanking for that matter.

Cavadus
07-15-2013, 10:39 AM
Guess which is funner?

Horizontal. A billion times over, horizontal. Vertical progression as seen in RPGs has no place in a competitive shooter. If that's what you want go play one of the fifty bajllion boring WoW clones.

Donnyrides
07-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Whoever thinks that fortitude and regeneration are junk are simply wrong. (see sig)

For the "tanking" that this game allows, Thick_skinned, Rear_Guard, Fail_safe, Hunker_down, and Escape_artist are all very good perks to go with alongside fortitude and regeneration.

Then your last 2 are up to you. Hunter_stance would make sense since you will be kneeling anyway for Hunker_down and then maybe Fortified_stance, but I don't trust this one since I don't know what the game classifies as "You take less damage while standing still". If it reads the way a magic card would read then you have to actually be "standing" to get the bonus and that would suck because you are using Hunker_down and Hunters_stance

If you are playing PvP with vehicles and you are not using Crash_test_dummy.....you should be. 60% less damage from a vehicle is very nice.

Use the EGO_calculator in my sig to play around with builds. Save you the time, headache and respec scrip from trial-and-error on the actual game.

Enjoy!

fang1192
07-15-2013, 11:34 AM
Guess which is funner?



Guess which game I'm playing.

@Donny - they stack. I use those 2 often. If they didnt stack I would notice, because the majority of damage reduction comes from fortified stance. So if it didnt work while crouching I'd be screwed especially against the volge.

Maitreakow
07-15-2013, 11:48 AM
Guess which game I'm playing.

@Donny - they stack. I use those 2 often. If they didnt stack I would notice, because the majority of damage reduction comes from fortified stance. So if it didnt work while crouching I'd be screwed especially against the volge.

Great to hear confirmation on this. I run them both on my tank builds, but was never sure if they were worth it...

Donnyrides
07-15-2013, 11:52 AM
@Donny - they stack. I use those 2 often. If they didnt stack I would notice, because the majority of damage reduction comes from fortified stance. So if it didnt work while crouching I'd be screwed especially against the volge.

Great to know. I will invest the 3 EGO points and see. I should have just tested it for myself since I have 11 EGO points just sitting around doing nothing. Thanks.

Tilarta
07-15-2013, 05:31 PM
There are is a particular kind of skill I avoid in games.

I call it Chance Based Proc.

Thick Skinned is an example of this, because the description reads:
Chance to double your health when your shield breaks.
If it says "will double your health when your shield breaks", then I'd take it.

I prefer to rely on Active Passives, ones that work all the time.

As for things like Fortitude and Hunker Down, I thought they wouldn't work for me, since I never sit still for a moment in combat!
The only time I am stationary is when lining up a Sniper Shot from a great distance.

Also, 3 of my passive slots are currently locked and the rest are being used, so until they get unlocked, I can't use them.

Plus, I searched the Entire Ego tree looking for more defensive passives to support my build, I couldn't find any more then the ones I already have.

They mostly said "you have to do this to get this result".
For example, a melee kill in a solo boss fight to restore your shields, that's not terribly useful.


So now I'm just foccussing on getting my secondary EGO build up and running, unlocking the skills required for Cloak and levelling up the passives for that.
I'm finding it annoying that I have to waste valuable EGO points to keep moving across the Grid to get to the actual skill I'm targeting though.

fang1192
07-15-2013, 05:39 PM
Thick skinned isnt chanced based, and it doesnt double your health. It reduces damage taken by 50% then it goes on cooldown for 15 seconds when it is triggered. If you're moving so much, move behind cover every now and then, you wont dodge bullets, especially from the Volge. Also, fortitude increases your health, not reduces damage. The active passives are not that powerful, because they are active passives.

You are considerably lucky I realized you are under 1000 Ego.

Donnyrides
07-16-2013, 12:40 PM
So we all took the time to write you excellent tips with actual real data and you chose to garbage out like "I don't like chance based procs" when there is no chance involved. There are very few perks that have to do with chance. Conditions - sure. They weren't going to make a game that just gave you everything great.

You are getting advice from people who have played over 200 hours. We know what what are talking about.

You shouldn't be "tanking" anyway. The game gives you all the tools you need to take cover evade attacks take less damage if you are doing it right. You're not going to stand in front of a hulker and go toe to toe with him. You take what he gives and reload and heal when you can. plain and simple. Thick skinned is one of the best perks in the game at rewarding players for playing right. You were taking shots while shooting and moving to cover: take less damage for 3 seconds while you get to cover. Same with rear guard. If you take 30% less damage from behind and you have 50% less damage for 3 seconds when your shield breaks, that means you have 3 seconds to run away and find cover while taking 20% damage.

Use the tools the game gives and you don't simply think you are going to go toe to toe with volge or other tough enemies.

I don't like getting upset about stuff with this game since it is just a game, but good grief. If you ask for help and people take the time to give it to you, just say thanks and try the suggestions you were given.

Tilarta
07-16-2013, 11:00 PM
Okay, let me break it down for you then.

I am currently working on building up my secondary EGO framework (Cloak) and I don't have the points to chase after another Ego build or more passives in addition to that.

According to my calculations, this is what I need:

Cloak: 4 Ego Points.
Cloak Duration: 3 Ego Points.
Unlock skill next to Cloak Recharge: 1 Ego Point.
Cloak Recharge Rate: 3 Ego Points.

To acquire that means I have to level 11 times.

And given that there is zip left to do in the game now that all the side missions are done, IF I choose to keep levelling, it means finishing the Cloak build and then working on a Decoy Build will be a lot of grinding!

And that's not counting the 2 Ego points I want for the vehicle durability/damage passive.

Also, I literally do not have any more passive slots left, there's 3 more and they're all locked, so even if I wanted to try a new EGO passive, I couldn't.


And you did see my point about no cover right?
I explored that entire room as thoroughly as I could with said boss chasing me all over the map.
There's literally nowhere to hide and recover!


As for Volge, they will chase you over prolonged distances, more then any other enemy will do.
So cover doesn't really work, as they'll follow you until they get a clean line of shot and then you're dead.

fang1192
07-17-2013, 12:08 AM
Please use this calculator and show us your exact set up.
http://defiance-central.com/ego-calculator/
Post the link when you have filled out the relevant perks.

Then tell us your grenade, your weapons and their nanos (bonuses dont really matter), and your shield. Finally, tell us what exactly you are trying to do with this set up. What is its main focus?

Edit: Example of an early cloak build - http://defiance-central.com/ego-calculator/?link=51c-52a-53a-54a-55a-62a-65c-72e-93a-94a-95c-&start=72

Also, what room are you in that has no cover, apparently no entrances or exits, and who or what exactly are you fighting. At least give us a map or mission name. The only rooms i can think that fit those conditions are the Hulkers in Co-ops, and Nim.

For the volge, if you can't fight but are able to find some cover (even sandbags works), summon your vehicle and get out of there - I am close to 4000 and I do that if my current set up cant handle them.

Why are you even trying to get vehicle perks? You dont need those for PvE, and you clearly arent ready for PvP.

Edit: seriously the abbreviation for get the eff out is censored?

Tilarta
07-17-2013, 01:53 AM
Here is the build:
Tilarta's Overcharge/Cloak Build (http://defiance-central.com/ego-calculator/?link=6c-16a-17a-18e-25a-26a-35c-36a-37a-39a-43a-44a-45c-46a-49a-50c-52a-53a-54a-56c-63a-64a-72a-84a-&start=18)
And here are the skills I'm targeting:
Tilarta's Ego Layout (http://forums.defiance.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4946&d=1374051620)
Red is the ones I am taking to max level, blue is maybe.

Weapons and Grenade mods here:
Tilarta's Gear (http://forums.defiance.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4943&d=1374050578)
E1 indicates I'm using it on my Overcharge Build, E2 on my Cloak Build.

And there's no goal really, other then survival.
Hold out long enough to shoot an NPC to death.

As for the vehicle passive, I figured more durability and more collision damage couldn't hurt, not when I'm ramming every hostile that gets in my way!
And yes, I'm doing that on purpose. :D



And I looked at Thick Skinned.
I was confusing it with another skill.
But there was still a reason for rejecting it, it has a cooldown.
I don't use those kinds of skills either.

Donnyrides
07-17-2013, 06:10 AM
I dont like cell armor very much but it fits what you want to do having no stop active perks.

With cell_armor you get hit for 100 now you get hit for 94, that doesn't sound as good as taking 15% less damage when your shield is recharging or 50% when your shield breaks. You need protection when your shields go down more than you need it when you first start a fight. It's keeps you alive while running around for 3 seconds waiting for your respark to charge.

To each their own I guess. Thank you for using the tools that Fang and I suggested.

Indra Echo
07-17-2013, 06:26 AM
So were the games I had in mind!

They were a Shooter style games and my defense rating was pretty formidable.
Like I said, they kept me in the fight long enough to finish it.

But this game, I don't feel like anything is really helping.

Overcharge does in a pinch, but against the really tough enemies, it doesn't even scratch them before they finish me.

The HP bump is meaningless. HP regen is mostly meaningless unless on a shield that has a short recharge delay or where you're using cloak. Heck, even shield capacity is not as much help as your strategy and personal tactics.

Nothing will help quite so much as your ability to assess when hiding or running or avoidance is the best course of action.

You have to also look at what EGO is best. Dark Matter and the Volge are not phased by Cloak. They see you. So, Overcharge can work the best with one defensive perk (can't remember the names of the perks), offensive ones for bumps in damage, and ammo refill ones.

Overcharge and a Canker can take down the Volge but surprisingly enough, an Infector Grenade is my best weapon against them. The bugs distract them, and still do a good job of reducing their shields.


The whole idea with any foe, even the "weakest" ones is to just know when you can't overpower them. Find their vulnerabilities. Use cover and roll when needed and so on. The Viscera is perhaps one of the best examples. If he's looking at you he will do one of two things. He will let you know he's about to shoot you or that he's going to charge. By the time that blue cloud forms, it's almost too late to get out of the way. So the tactic is to shoot until he looks at you, then use cover but be aware that he can adjust his direction. Make sure you get him to charge one way while you're moving to a different position. If he hits you, he may be quick to attack again and kill you or you may have time to roll or run away if you're lucky. The best shield, best perks, and the best weapons in the game can't change this.


I look at one other shooter series and will say that they don't do things any better. In CoD games there have always been problems with weapon power and range. And they vary from match to match. You can be in one match where people are using shotguns with sniper range for some amazing one shot kills, but no matter what weapon you use you have to empty the magazine to do any damage. In other matches, everyone's a sniper because some sniper rifles are multi-purpose, amazing run and gun AND long distance incredibly fast aiming machines. Then, there's the can't miss RPGs that people shoot at the ground and that do no damage to the user. Shooters often have incredible imbalances that change from match to match.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that in this game, it is often more the ability of the player to read a situation that can determine success. It means that almost any weapon can be used in almost any situation and be successful if you work with it. Some like BMGs just may take longer and require more evasive techniques. And that's cool.

Maitreakow
07-17-2013, 06:37 AM
The HP bump is meaningless. HP regen is mostly meaningless unless on a shield that has a short recharge delay or where you're using cloak. Heck, even shield capacity is not as much help as your strategy and personal tactics.

Nothing will help quite so much as your ability to assess when hiding or running or avoidance is the best course of action.


With regards to the HP, it depends on your perks/loadout. Check the HP regen link in my sig for more info.

That being said he has a great point with the last part. You can't tank like in most other games for an entire encounter unless you have a Tachmag Syphon and a huge defensive build. Even that will be going away with the upcoming change to nano procs.

WarHoundZero
07-17-2013, 06:48 AM
You can't go full on defense because this game simply doesn't allow it. The only way to survive is to kill and if you can't kill you will be killed.....unless you know how to utilize cover.

Indra Echo
07-17-2013, 07:08 AM
With regards to the HP, it depends on your perks/loadout. Check the HP regen link in my sig for more info.

That being said he has a great point with the last part. You can't tank like in most other games for an entire encounter unless you have a Tachmag Syphon and a huge defensive build. Even that will be going away with the upcoming change to nano procs.

Yes certainly HP regen can help if used correctly and not relied upon as the miracle solution. People see the increased HP or HP regen and misunderstand them. They are not substitutes for adequate strategies and aren't meant to be. They are augmentations that can give you help in a pinch.

No, you can't tank in this game and well there are many things you can and can't do in this game that are different from other games. For instance, if tanking were possible it should come with a heavy price. But I doubt many people want to pay the price for it. It should make you slow and overburdened to tank. The weight of all that protection should matter. Just as weapon weight and mechanics should matter. If we are to compare this to other games and yes, to "real world" physics and mechanics.

It's actually refreshing that this game does sort of make weapons in many ways subservient to tactics. It isn't so obvious about it but I think it does play a part in why nerfing anything is not as bad as it seems. If it was possible to just out-gun and tank up for every situation, then the game for me would offer no challenge. But if strong foes really are strong but can be out-thought then it's all about my abilities and not the weapon I'm carrying.

Maitreakow
07-17-2013, 07:10 AM
It's actually refreshing that this game does sort of make weapons in many ways subservient to tactics. It isn't so obvious about it but I think it does play a part in why nerfing anything is not as bad as it seems. If it was possible to just out-gun and tank up for every situation, then the game for me would offer no challenge. But if strong foes really are strong but can be out-thought then it's all about my abilities and not the weapon I'm carrying.

Completely agree with this

Donnyrides
07-17-2013, 07:15 AM
Regeneration is by far the single most "active/passive" ability in the game. You normally don't regain HP until your shields are back to 100%, With Regeneration you are always getting HP back. In some cases where weaker enemies have you cornered, if you die, Regeneration will bring you back to life.

Fortitude is also an amazing perk. it gives you nearly 20% more HP.

I think these 2 perks should be used on EVERY loadout, not just tank builds

Maitreakow
07-17-2013, 07:20 AM
Regeneration is by far the single most "active/passive" ability in the game. You normally don't regain HP until your shields are back to 100%, With Regeneration you are always getting HP back. In some cases where weaker enemies have you cornered, if you die, Regeneration will bring you back to life.

Fortitude is also an amazing perk. it gives you nearly 20% more HP.

I think these 2 perks should be used on EVERY loadout, not just tank builds

As a reminder, if the HP Regen link was TL;DR, Regen also is the only way to get the Regen shields to start working immediately instead of waiting for your shield to get back to full. Nice to help combat those pesky infectors/BMGs.

Cavadus
07-17-2013, 10:10 AM
...there is zip left to do in the game now that all the side missions are done...

Sorry dude, if that's what you honestly believe than Defiance isn't for you. There are a million things to do outside of primary and secondary missions.

In fact, the missions probably comprise a mere 10% of the content in the entire game.

I'm currently EGO ~3250 and I've only made it to Rosa's workshop at Top Notch.

You're doing something wrong.

Tilarta
07-17-2013, 02:53 PM
A million things to do?
Oh please.

Let's count them:
1. Daily missions for Vendors
2. Arkfalls
3. Challenges (Races, Rampages, whatever else those little diamonds on the map are).
4. Co-op maps.
5. PvP.

All of that is just repetitive content.
And I grew bored of that long before I came to Defiance.
They're not the first game to use that kind of content and they won't be the last either.

Maybe if you did them a million times over, then you could say that there is really a million things to do.
And with that Ego level, you are.

So I'm doing something wrong by not signing my life away to slaving in Defiance for level grinding?


As for surviving, my shields take a hit, but against most enemies, I put them down before they put me down.
Sometimes I've taken out 3-4 Dark Matter before having to duck into cover.

And maybe that's a flaw in the system, the cover mechanism.
They make combat so dependent on hiding from damage, they didn't factor in what would happen when you are placed in a room where there is no cover.
Like I said before, this isn't Tomb Raider, if you are moving, you aren't locked onto target and therefore, not shooting them.


I have no idea what a TachMag pulsar is.
I have to make do with whatever weapons the game handed me in one way or another.

However, I expect I am operating with substandard weapons.

KTCAOP
07-17-2013, 04:24 PM
Define Substandard?

Satsuki
07-17-2013, 04:28 PM
Honestly I prefer there be no cover "mechanic". Its natural. If I want to get into cover I move behind a solid object, ducking if need be. That's always worked just fine, much better than games that "snap" you to something with a button press.

Cavadus
07-17-2013, 04:31 PM
Stuff.

Like I said, this game isn't for you.

I have plenty of things to do.

The 47th does clan races, road marches, training exercises, pursuits, RPing, key grinding, lots of PvP (all forms), a few co-op maps here and there, et cetera.

Judging from your posts, Tilarta, I'm at a loss as to why you're playing this game at all. All of your posts are QQ rants about how this sucks, that is too hard, and you can't find anything to do.

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy Defiance. I do. I wish others' enjoyment of the game didn't upset you.

Anyways, last word is all yours.

/donewiththread

Tilarta
07-17-2013, 05:07 PM
Define Substandard?

I have no idea really.
I'm just basing it on what I've done in other games.
To be operating with whatever gear the game handed you, especially if it's green is considered bad form.

I don't understand the Defiance weapon system, so can't comment on that.

But in general, I look for weapons that support my playstyle and are of the highest quality with whatever mods I feel support that.

For instance, I like Scopes and Magazine/Ammo capacity with low recoil, so that is what I would seek.
I prefer fire damage, so I'd prioritize those weapons.
I usually have a backup damage in case fire proves inadequate, but what that should be in Defiance, I have no idea.

Unfortunately, when I dabbled in crafting, I kept getting told, no, you can't put a scope on this weapon.
I think it's something to do with the quality of the weapon.

Heinzlee
07-17-2013, 10:49 PM
And I looked at Thick Skinned.
I was confusing it with another skill.
But there was still a reason for rejecting it, it has a cooldown.
I don't use those kinds of skills either.

I understand where you're coming from since I personally prefer the same type of skills / abilities you do.
I like to keep things simple and and rather have 100% on smaller bonuses than having to manage multiple larger ones.

As you're probaby realising, the Ego grid only has a small number of perks that match this criteria and also actually be useful.
Even using conditional perks with larger bonuses with 4k+ tier equipment, you can't 'tank'.

So if we assume dodging and taking cover when available, a 15second cool down on thick skin is not that bad. It's effectively always on since if you're breaking your shield again within 15 seconds it might be more fruitful to adjust playstyle rather than ego perks.

You're free to play the game how you want; but hopefully you realise that the game system doesn't support a traditional tank build.

And as others have mentioned, and I fess to it myself, sometimes, no amount of taking cover and dodge rolling saves you. I've died more than a few times to Volge even at 4K plus. Sometimes you're just in a bad situation and/or don't have the right ego perk / loadout equipped.

Heinzlee
07-17-2013, 11:48 PM
So for a tanky build, I recommend the following.
You will probably need to respect to do it.

Ego Power - Cloak / Decoy

Cloak lets you instantly regen your shield.
Decoy allows you to take agro off yourself.
Recommend Cloak since it's easier to use in PvP as well.

Core tanky perks.
Thick Skin
Cellular Armour
Fortitude
Regeneration

If you've entered your 120 arkfall codes, and therefore start with scavenger perk; you should be able to get these four quite quickly. With fortitude, you should have roughly 1500 hp total. Thick skin effectively doubles that for 3 seconds when your shield breaks. So now you need to take 3k damage before you die. This is on top of the damage required to break your shield initially. The regeneration perk combined with your regeneration shield will start regenerating your HP right away.

Situational tanky perks
Blast Shield
Detachment
Execution
Rear Guard
Escape Artist

The thing that usually screws me up is failing to dodge an explosive and then it staggers me. Blast shield helps a lot with avoiding that.
Detachment gives you 12% dmg reduction on a kill. You should be doing a lot of that in this game. It gives you damage reduction when you need it the most - facing down multiple opponents.
I'm going to presume you're a decent shot and can get critical kills which will restore your shield.
Rear guard will help when you're surrounded (cos it still happens sometimes) and when you're making a tactical withdrawal.
Others really like Escape artist since it allows you to cover more distance at shield break to find cover in the magic 3 second thick skin time. Personally have done fine without it but could be useful.

I dont recommend the crouching / standing still perks since they discourage mobility.
But I'll also admit that I haven't used them myself based on the above playstyle reasons.
Seems others do use them and do okay though.

Dead things don't shoot back
The other path of course is to just kill everything before they can do too much damage to you.
Though it doesn't really fit the 'tank' descriptor.

Regarding equipment...
Your ironclad regenerater is a good pick.
Regenerater shields are arguably the best in PvE - especially with the fortitude / regeneration perk combination. The higher capacity of the Ironclad also works good with execution which works on a percentage value.

As for main weapon, try the syphon SAW you have. The SAW does very good damage and syphon is basically a lifesteal. You will need to manually burst fire it but the higher damage per bullet more than compensates. There's a reason the SAW is getting nerfed soon.

Othewise, infectors style weapons are useful because the bugs distract the enemy and take some aggro off you.

Lastly, try a bio grenade. The bio nano will not only slow them but reduce their damage as well.
Flash grenades also work but it's hard to find one with a low det time and refresh time and the effect doesn't last as long as bio.


Regarding mobs
You probably noticed that the basic shooting enemies have really good aim. Compared the the lobbing grenade attacks that can be dodged, there's not much you can do about the riff raff with rifles / smgs except to put some cover between you. Try to kill them first while avoiding the grenade lobber - especially if you're caught out in the open. You can dodge grenades in the open but not the direct fire weapons.

KTCAOP
07-18-2013, 01:31 AM
Not quite, the "quality" of the weapon really doesn't change as the base statistics don't change at all as you level up or get a higher tier rarity, just the extra bonuses that come with them. Adding a mod to a weapon isn't affected by things like that but rather you have the correct modification and the correct modification slot open.

Daholic
07-18-2013, 03:38 AM
Honestly I prefer there be no cover "mechanic". Its natural. If I want to get into cover I move behind a solid object, ducking if need be. That's always worked just fine, much better than games that "snap" you to something with a button press.

Oh and, be sure you count you hang time next time you log in and jump hills with your vehicle, then come back and tell me about what feels natural

Strontium Dog
07-18-2013, 03:52 AM
So for a tanky build, I recommend the following.
You will probably need to respect to do it.

Ego Power - Cloak / Decoy

Cloak lets you instantly regen your shield.
Decoy allows you to take agro off yourself.
Recommend Cloak since it's easier to use in PvP as well.



Have to point out that isn't very tanky at all. Cloaking and dropping aggro (decoy) is what glass canons need to do not the tank ( if this was a trinity game some think it is i mean) Tank needs to hold the mobs attention.

No idea how aggro works here, but its been discussed a lot and no conclusion.


Siphon anything works so long as its either fast or SAW like. I have a AR that just vomits siphon procs for some reason, just never stops :)

Tilarta
07-18-2013, 04:19 PM
Does it work on bosses too?

I want to take a second run at that guy, but if I'm not properly prepared, it will just end up like my first attempt.
Not to mention the time wasted in fighting through meaningless mobs before I actually get to him.

Unfortunately, I'm thinking properly prepared means at least a thousand ego points and all ego abilities specced.

I really don't want to invest that much time grinding Ego level just to do the final mission.



And by my definition, Tank isn't about holding aggro, it's about enduring damage.



Now, if I had missions to do to level up, then yeah, I'd go tackle those, but as I said, I'm all out, there's none left!

I think my only realistic option to get story based levelling is wait for a DLC or two and see if that gives me the extra level kick I want.

Donnyrides
07-18-2013, 05:31 PM
Does it work on bosses too?

I really don't want to invest that much time grinding Ego level just to do the final mission

Now we have the true problem. Nim. There is no tanking Nim. Use a ground pounder and any high bug producing infector. Use decoy to draw him away. Then jump all over the place. Even use the bug nade.

This is basic strategy for Nim. Results may vary...

Tilarta
07-18-2013, 06:15 PM
Oops, I didn't mean to identify who I was fighting! :eek:

But since the cat is out of the bag......
The last time I tried a ground pounder, it didn't work as well.
The manual detonation part worked against me.
And I doubt it works very well on Nim anyway, since he keeps moving all over the place!
So unless it's stuck to him, he's going to avoid the blast.

Besides, I think I threw that weapon away the last time I was culling my inventory.
It keeps expanding and I decided that I was going to intentionally limit what I carried to one or two of every type of weapon.

And well, I've shown you my build.
To get to Decoy in addition to the two I actually use is more work.
And no, I don't believe in Respecs, especially since I think (uncertain!) that you have to pay for them in Real World Money.
Once to get Decoy, once to put my skills back the way they were.

Besides, I'm a firm believer in the principle of universal builds.
If you're forced to use specific abilities or builds to get past what should be universally approachable by all builds, the game is poorly designed.

How much fun would it be if everyone brought a Decoy build to a battle?
There should be diversity, because it's more fun to have multiple builds then just one kind.

Cavadus
07-18-2013, 06:27 PM
...I don't believe in Respecs, especially since I think (uncertain!) that you have to pay for them in Real World Money.

An EGO grid respecification is charged in scrip, not RL money.

KTCAOP
07-18-2013, 06:39 PM
I beat nim with a cloak build and an overcharge build.

You don't need to respect since you're probably low enough of a level to just keep unlocking.

I'm working on a survivalist minimalist run, but yeah, he will do too much damage for you to sit still and take hits, you just need to constantly be running/moving and shooting.

Blondin
07-19-2013, 03:10 AM
I'm working on a survivalist minimalist run, but yeah, he will do too much damage for you to sit still and take hits, you just need to constantly be running/moving and shooting.


Like I said before, this isn't Tomb Raider, if you are moving, you aren't locked onto target and therefore, not shooting them.
There is no perks to auto-aim while running... game over.

Pipes
07-19-2013, 03:46 AM
Gotta be a troll thread surely....

Actually with a good levelled up BMG and the defense perks you can effectively tank any small group of lower enemies, provided you are shooting between the healing. As for mini bosses, ive suvived all 3 Tanker shots, Ive survived 3 full on hits from a Blacklung and Monarchs take a good 5-6 hits to take me down.

The main problem comes with facing groups of 4 or 5 fast firing enemies, ie : Raiders, they generally wont fire at you in synch so healing between shots like you can with mutants and 99'ers is a no no. Dark Matter is dependant on the troop type really.

As for Nim, tho I did him first attempt around 1800 ego (Way before the 1000 full perk crap) , that first room is an absolute **** for the reason you stated, no cover. He downed me once , after that I learnt his patterns and rolled a lot waiting for openings, unfourtunately his projectiles seem to troll you by randomly caring wether or not to hit you regardless of evasion. Cloak and Decoy work tho I think they barely had a timer before he found me, luckily it was enough to heal in time or distract with the bug grenade.

After that round, hes a joke tbh. Stick to cover, roll when the clearly signalled homing sttacks are coming and roll a lot.

As for Volge, you can effectively tank 2 NORMAL soldiers for a few seconds with the right perks but anything above that is suicide. Oh and regardless of shield , perks or hp, them elite Volge soldiers grenades will 1 shot u

KTCAOP
07-19-2013, 05:10 PM
There is no perks to auto-aim while running... game over.

Challenge Accepted >=D.

Veld
07-19-2013, 05:49 PM
Does it work on bosses too?

Unfortunately, I'm thinking properly prepared means at least a thousand ego points and all ego abilities specced.



It doesn't have to mean that at all. I see (like me) you're an Aussie. I know from my experience latency hampers me a bit in combat. I can't tell you how many times i have dodged at what is the right time according to what's on my screen only to have the game knock me down etc regardless. I have 3 characters, one is ego 2450 odd the others are not even ego 500 and they all play almost the same in terms of effectiveness. In fact, i have one character i play with no perks and ego ability and she's still completed the entire replay one set of perks and gotten the volge Intel done - i play solo 98% of the time too.

For me being mobile is the most important thing in this game over everything else. Once you get used to always moving and using the cover (which i really like in this game) things become a lot less annoying in terms of enemy AI with stupidly OP accuracy, damage dealt and health pools.

It's pretty obvious Trion don't want people to solo (it's possible but not their preferred play-style). They also have zero understanding of proportional risk / reward and how to scale their encounters because their AI cheats and ignores the fundamental rules players have to adhere to because they don't have the programming/development skill to actually write good, challenging and "intelligent" enemies. It's easier and faster for them to take the lazy "get it in the game fast" route of essentially god moding the AI. Volge viscerators blur charging through solid objects is a perfect example of it, but blacklungs that can fire multiple grenades with pin point accuracy from 100+ feet away is another .

I say the above as someone who REALLY enjoys the game and had a horrible time at the start - i almost quit for most of the above mentioned reasons. For me, the solution was to ditch cloak, and spend my time running around Mt Tam practising my aiming and use of cover with a pistol. Only other advice i can offer is to hit me up in game for a chat and we can see if we can't work through some of the issues.

Blondin
07-19-2013, 05:50 PM
Challenge Accepted >=D.
I'm sure you will punish Nim with your survalist mode (good idea btw), but Tilarta seems to have problem to shoot and run at same time, alas in the first part of Nim fight you need to move or you die :)

Tilarta
07-19-2013, 06:42 PM
The number one issue I have is the solo aspect of the game.

Veld said Trion don't want you to solo, but every time you enter a story instance mission like Jackleg Joe or Nim Shondu, you're forced to go alone.

This would be so much easier if I could just take someone with me, that's what I did in all my former mmos when I ran into difficulty, asked a friend to lend a hand.

So naturally, I have a high degree of skepticism that this is meant to be a multiplayer game, if it's hardcoded to make you solo.

That's why I've never bothered to establish a support network, because what can you really do together?
Not much, in terms of practical gameplay.
The only thing I saw that would be worth trying is the vehicle passenger challenge, but as I failed to get gold medals in races, it's irrevalent to get the other parts of the challenge.

For pity's sakes, even the NPCs abandon you when it comes time to fight Nim!
With the flimsy excuse that they don't have Egos, but you do, so go kick his behind while we chicken out.

I'm pretty sure 4 NPCs catching Nim in a crossfire will down him quick, heck I even knocked half his health off once on my best attempt.

Veld
07-19-2013, 07:24 PM
Yep solo is frustrating initially like i said, I typically wind up even now that i am comfortable with the game shaking my head in disbelief at something or other the game throws at me; be it a bug. stupidly OP mob or whatever. Trion seem to have tried to cater to everyone (solo, PVE, PVP and so on) and lost the plot along the way. On the one hand they make the difficulty punishing to play alone to the point of it being brutally un-fun and then force you to play alone regardless, yet on the other hand they put huge cooperative events in to encourage you to play with others whilst at the same time giving you a buggy, painful to use social interface that may not even work half the time.

Personally speaking they're lucky i am a patient person who in spite of it all finds the game fun. Not every one is like me though and that's why they have a lot less players now (and i have noticed a decline in the amount of players on) compared to when i started about a month and a half ago.

Like i said though, if you want a hand (even if it's just helpful advice on Nym (which is easier to do via Q&A in real time than on forums) feel free to look me up and i'll do what i can.