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Chump Norris
07-24-2013, 11:55 PM
They were never meant to turn infectors in to full auto weps. I read alot of threads about them not fixing bugs and this is was a bug and they fixed it....sure its not a bug most of us wanted fixed (especially with all the other bugs they need to focus on) but its still one less bug. Why are people mad? Is it because they did it without properly warning everyone? Is it just the method in which they fixed it?

Krael
07-24-2013, 11:58 PM
Because GRR CHANGE BAAD

JxSiN
07-25-2013, 12:12 AM
They said the change was coming, just didn't say when. I think people were shocked that it happened this fast. While it stopped the immunizer from being full auto, it actually fixed a bug in the inoculator where adding the +1 mag actually stopped it from firing 5 needles at a time and just becoming a 1 needle per shot crap weapon. To me, I think it was a good change cuz 2 bugs were fixed (the inoculator and the immunizer--- seeing how it was never suppose to be a full auto infector).

jbob spittlewop
07-25-2013, 01:48 AM
They are mad because they no longer have their exploited super infectors.

Strontium Dog
07-25-2013, 02:09 AM
Only in PvP are they bad. But then PvP is waste of time with hackers etc which Trion cares not about.

So that leaves PvE as the only viable game left. But then they start nerfing weapons and before long they are all nerfed.Then one will stand out and be nerfed again...and so vicious circle of nerfing begins. Far better to buff underpar weapons than to nerf. It NEVER works.


So far every mmo that i have played in has seen PvPkiddies moan about this and that and had stuff nerfed across the board because its too difficult to make a separate system, pvp & pve, that works. Then the kiddies start ranting about how their money is worth more or something and so they have MORE right to get what THEY want.


Usually ****in ****. tbh.


I dont even really care about infectors or SAW .Not a part of my main loadouts. Just sick of seeing folk whine and whine and whine until they get stuff nerfed just because THEY were having issues.

The small vical whining minority (in EVERY mmo)

WarHoundZero
07-25-2013, 03:17 AM
The one thing that's get's me is they didn't roll out the other balance changes i.e. nefing syphon since it is a major issue and people use it as a crutch . I know when this happens a lot of people are going to be od mad because infectors will become effective again. I like infectors but only as harassment weapons to make stealthers retreat and keep them tagged.

Dave Blackwell
07-25-2013, 03:39 AM
Only in PvP are they bad. But then PvP is waste of time with hackers etc which Trion cares not about.

So that leaves PvE as the only viable game left. But then they start nerfing weapons and before long they are all nerfed.Then one will stand out and be nerfed again...and so vicious circle of nerfing begins. Far better to buff underpar weapons than to nerf. It NEVER works.


So far every mmo that i have played in has seen PvPkiddies moan about this and that and had stuff nerfed across the board because its too difficult to make a separate system, pvp & pve, that works. Then the kiddies start ranting about how their money is worth more or something and so they have MORE right to get what THEY want.


Usually ****in ****. tbh.


I dont even really care about infectors or SAW .Not a part of my main loadouts. Just sick of seeing folk whine and whine and whine until they get stuff nerfed just because THEY were having issues.

The small vical whining minority (in EVERY mmo)

You're pissing in the wind regarding 'nerfs'. I've posted in nearly every thread about any 'nerf' and it seems no one ever realises how this cycle works - Oh, but see when their weapons get some love? Ha. The tune usually changes when that happens, but by then it's already too late. Shotguns are near enough useless in my eyes now, the SAW heh.. if it's anything like how the shotguns were treated then welcome them to the family of uselessness. To be honest, I'm against 'nerfing' entirely whether I use a weapon or not because I know the feeling.

The sad thing is; even though you don't use any of the weapons you mentioned, over time the weapons you do use they will get the exact same TLC from 'nerfing'. Why? Well, think about it. 'Nerfing' is essentially reducing the effectiveness of weapons, how well is a 'nerfed' weapon going to stand against a weapon that hasn't been touched at all with 'nerfs' since release?

The cycle never stops.

WarHoundZero
07-25-2013, 03:50 AM
You're pissing in the wind regarding 'nerfs'. I've posted in nearly every thread about any 'nerf' and it seems no one ever realises how this cycle works - Oh, but see when their weapons get some love? Ha. The tune usually changes when that happens, but by then it's already too late. Shotguns are near enough useless in my eyes now, the SAW heh.. if it's anything like how the shotguns were treated then welcome them to the family of uselessness. To be honest, I'm against 'nerfing' entirely whether I use a weapon or not because I know the feeling.

The sad thing is; even though you don't use any of the weapons you mentioned, over time the weapons you do use they will get the exact same TLC from 'nerfing'. Why? Well, think about it. 'Nerfing' is essentially reducing the effectiveness of weapons, how well is a 'nerfed' weapon going to stand against a weapon that hasn't been touched at all with 'nerfs' since release?

The cycle never stops.
It's a horrible cycle too. Developers that continue to "nerf" weapons never tend to understand that a "nerf" is never a fix unless the weapon is just leaps and bound than others and they honestly aren't. These were fixes and imo weren't super nerfs, but the shotguns were a blatant nerf that didn't need to happen how it did. No matter how much you "nerf" a weapon some people will never be satisfied because the way they see it is that they didn't do anything to deserve to be killed/out dps'd which imo is a stupid *** mentality. Idk I honestly hope this new guy can come up with constructive ways to remedy when a weapon needs a balance change and balancing it properly so that the gun doesn't lose it's overall effectiveness but is brought down a notch.

Arsenic_Touch
07-25-2013, 04:00 AM
They shouldn't be nerfing anything, but the fact that they snuck it in is what irks me. Patch notes say they're fixing a bug with innoculators that the strain reducer causes them to turn into 1 shot, what they really did is change the strain reducer completely from burst to fire rate, which is a nerf for immunizers(this was the target, this is what people were whining about in pvp), while a buff for other automatic infectors(they'll whine about this next, specially those cankers). They didn't fix the real problem (the infection bubble) I knew it was coming, but I don't like deceptive patch notes.

Strontium Dog
07-25-2013, 04:05 AM
I never really understand why mmos that dont have true open world pvp , dont make a system for damage that is seperate. I mean they can give our characters different looks depending on PvP or PvE so why not weapons etc. Have them all have a pvp mode automatically enabled when lvling. That way they can nerf balance or boost things without upsetting everyone.

As it is you are so right. SAW gets nerfed then will be under par with AR which will be seen as too strong compared to SAW so will get nerfed ad infinitum.

Terrible system to work with.Thats why I always take the statements from developers of any game, that they too are gamers and play games, as a load of pow shtako. They may play the developers mode and what have you but non truly level up and play any more.

WarHoundZero
07-25-2013, 04:15 AM
IMO they do need to have open discussions for balancing weapons. Hell people were so adamant about shotguns getting nerfed that they could care less about the overall effectiveness in pve. This is my problem for nerfs that stem from pvp because usually a good majority of the people who are for the nerf don't want the weapon to be fair they want it brough ALL THE WAY INTO THE GROUND.

Arsenic_Touch
07-25-2013, 04:19 AM
IMO they do need to have open discussions for balancing weapons.

They have open threads, but as far as the discussion part goes? not really. They post what they're doing and don't come back.

WarHoundZero
07-25-2013, 04:23 AM
They have open threads, but as far as the discussion part goes? not really. They post what they're doing and don't come back.
Yah you have a point. Oh well dev's gone keep nerfin.

Colif
07-25-2013, 04:34 AM
End result of balancing like this is weapons with all the same stats, just different skins. We will have different categories but to make it all "fair" all the weapons in those categories will be the same. I wish they would fix shotgun mags, have 1 shotgun with 3 +mag mods and all I get is 2 bullets extra.

Someone said it before, only way to balance pvp and make it fair is take all the weapons off them... bet that would be a fun game.

I used an outbreaker until this patch, guess I just swap to a canker.

treadingwater
07-25-2013, 05:06 AM
I'll have to try some more PVP on freight yard. 90% of the players on PS3 NA are infector baddies exploiting the bug, so I'd imagine they'll be dying a lot more now that they can't cheat.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 05:20 AM
They were never meant to turn infectors in to full auto weps. I read alot of threads about them not fixing bugs and this is was a bug and they fixed it....sure its not a bug most of us wanted fixed (especially with all the other bugs they need to focus on) but its still one less bug. Why are people mad? Is it because they did it without properly warning everyone? Is it just the method in which they fixed it?

Basically, there were a lot of people that liked this bug for somewhat ridiculous reasons. I know because some of them popped up in chat and complained about the fact it was going to be fixed - that and the burst mod bug that can happen for LMGs. They were mad because they'd modded their weapons with the thing, knowing it was a bug, and now Trion was going to fix it. They didn't think it was fair. I said that since they knew it was a bug, then they also had to know at some point it would get fixed.

The thing is those that rely a lot on Immunizers in PvP don't want them touched in any way. And they likely paid a lot of scrip (maybe other real money sometimes too) to get the very best Immunizer they could. But, no one could actually ever say the Immunizer wasn't way too OP'ed. I know this too because people eventually admit that it was (is) even after initially saying it's not.

People don't want to give up that super weapon that makes them king (or queen) of PvP, even when it requires 0 skill, especially when it requires 0 skill. The Immunizer even without that bug is almost unstoppable-when used as it is intended to be used it is unavoidable. If used at range, you will never see the shooter and unless you get lucky and can run in the right direction and escape the range, you're dead. Even if you can run away, you might still be dead due to bug tick damage.

I find it so funny that people will often tell those who complain about PvP and especially Infectors (Immunizers) that they need to get better at it, get some skills. It's funny because they're using a weapon that doesn't require any. And they're mad because people have all but demanded that it be changed so the shooter has to at least have some kind of skills. The Strain Reducer is the first change as far as I know.

Tekrunner
07-25-2013, 05:45 AM
That mod was never supposed to work the way it did (whether in PvE or PvP), it was only a matter of time until they fixed it.

Maitreakow
07-25-2013, 05:50 AM
I'll have to try some more PVP on freight yard. 90% of the players on PS3 NA are infector baddies exploiting the bug, so I'd imagine they'll be dying a lot more now that they can't cheat.

I jumped on FY last night for the contract, expecting to see what you described. Ran into 3-4 guys with Immunizers on the roof at B. Used to be I could at least take one out before I went down with mu Burst modded Immunizer, with it gone I wasn't even able to take one with me. OTOH they were only really dangerous in groups now. There DID seem to be a much larger population of BHing Boomer/BMGers out last night though...

Tyger
07-25-2013, 05:50 AM
They are mad because it's a crutch weapon for most of the complainers, and now they have to readjust their cr@p tactics to do well again. Period.



Are you one of them Complainers as stated above?

*ahem*

Come at me Bro, I'd love to read your rebuttal as to how this was totally unfair and in no way a QQ response with a butthurt agenda pushing it forward.

XD

Maitreakow
07-25-2013, 06:02 AM
Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 06:04 AM
IMO they do need to have open discussions for balancing weapons. Hell people were so adamant about shotguns getting nerfed that they could care less about the overall effectiveness in pve. This is my problem for nerfs that stem from pvp because usually a good majority of the people who are for the nerf don't want the weapon to be fair they want it brough ALL THE WAY INTO THE GROUND.


Not true. People that want weapons nerfed often want them to be because they see that all anyone is ever using is that weapon. It becomes ridiculous. I'm not saying that nerfing is the answer in all cases, because I don't think it is. I think balance isn't about just down-grading a weapon. I think it can be about taking an overall look at things that work in conjunction. The problem with shotguns (hasn't changed) is the shottie/cloak thing that allows for an instant kill. It's Shadow Strike I think, so that someone can camp cloaked with a shotgun (or any powerful weapon), shoot, and kill without warning. It was made worse with the infinite cloak glitch. Since the perk is supposed to only work while cloaked and shooting is supposed to bring you out of cloak, the use was supposed to be more limited. But people were using it without a cooldown. To be perfectly honest since all of this is still happening the shotgun nerfing didn't do anything to address this-it just caused some people to stop because the shotgun they liked wasn't as good as before for general use. Other people just use other shotguns.

Sure, there is a counter with Decoy. But I've seen it in other games and had other players argue about this issue. The game devolves into 1 or 2 builds out of the thousands of combinations available. Usually it takes longer than a month for this to happen. In this game apparently people came out of beta testing and were already using the shotgun/cloak almost exclusively.

I do think that it's completely reasonable to take all things into consideration. If you have people paying millions in scrip for a weapon, and see that quite often in PvP matches, only one combination is being used AND people are complaining, it becomes obvious something is happening. In order to "fix" what seems to be the problem devs must often do the least damage (coding wise) they can to the game. Nerfing one weapon and not just doing it for PvP might have the least effect on the rest of the game.

And I don't think it's necessarily the best thing. It would be better if all weapons had great features and offsetting ones. For instance, it might make more sense to have some sort of perk that allows players to evade Infectors' auto-homing function. But some would say cloak does, but it doesn't. I'd like a perk that really does have a defensive adjunct not the weak buffs that there are now. I'd also like it if Immunizers had a cool down function (yes, that's a nerf) or if they actually required good aim, dead on aim and not just random firing. They're suggestions but they might be far harder to do, less popular, and do some damage to the rest of the game or create bugs.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 06:19 AM
Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

What's amazing to me is that a weapon that is so weak in PvE is so powerful in PvP. I tend to like to slam them with my Poop shoes Northstar Flare. And it does work well for the bunny hoppers.

The latest thing is the Bonfire bunny hoppers-this is at the core of the problem as I see it and why we will undergo some rather constant nerfing and buffing of weapons. Physics are not "real" in the game. The only thing that suffers from real world physics is the mini-gun found at emergencies and in hotshots. And that makes no sense.

In order for it to be more real, then guns shouldn't just take longer to load or have limited mags or whatever, but they should feel more real. I don't think this will ever happen, but pistols should be light and faster to wield, point, and shoot. SAWs should be heavier, take longer to point, and inhibit your ability to move fast. LMGs of other types should allow you to do things more quickly than the SAW. Shotguns should also be a slower use weapon and slower reloading. Rocket Launchers should be really powerful but more difficult to use.

Bigger weapons should feel like they are. Smaller ones should range from pea shooters (like powerful bb guns with lots of ammo) to the Magnums with the recoil of a Magnum (seriously, ever shoot one).

As for the more fictional weapons there should be some sort of "real" upsides and downsides. And PvP changes should be different from PvE, in my opinion.

Tyger
07-25-2013, 07:00 AM
Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

I would say Sludge-toob with a + to rounds that way you can lay out a decent carpet of poo in an area with 3 or so shots and not wait for the 25+ second or so timer on your nade.

Tekrunner
07-25-2013, 07:55 AM
Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

Gomly
07-25-2013, 08:03 AM
As i've said in every single forum for every single game with any form PvP ....

Even if you gave everyone a level 1 stick that did 1 damage per hit you would still have some tools whining that someone else's stick is more OP than theirs.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 08:08 AM
I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

You can also spray the area with a SAW or use any fire weapon-that can be fun. But Cloak in PvP is mostly broken. It doesn't work the same as in PvE and seems to be either still exploitable or makes use of slow graphic rendering. Some people do have infinite cloak. I've seen it or well, not seen them. They should at least temporarily come out of cloak when getting ammo (but some don't), shooting (but some don't), being shot (but some don't), or at some point in the game (but I've seen whole teams that don't ever). There are people that never show up on the map, never drop cloak no matter what, can even hop on a vehicle and remain cloaked (never works for me) and more. I'm not going to say they're cheating but it does need to be fixed. As well, some players (me) do become partly visible when they move under cloak, others do not at all.


The truth is that in PvP cloak is being used as the new way to camp. In CoD games most often unless there's a UAV up or someone is using the right perk, opposing players don't show up on the mini-map so they can camp in corners. People use cloak in Defiance to do that and then they also use it to one hit kill others.

Maitreakow
07-25-2013, 08:22 AM
I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

The issue comes when they roll 2-3 times then go right back to BHing. Currently I can keep hitting them while they roll, replenishing the Poop Shoes. After the Nano nerf I am not sure that I will be able to kill them before the poop shoes wears off, especially since most PvPers run with Thick Skin, regen, and a regen shield. I will have to wait and see I guess.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 08:26 AM
As i've said in every single forum for every single game with any form PvP ....

Even if you gave everyone a level 1 stick that did 1 damage per hit you would still have some tools whining that someone else's stick is more OP than theirs.


Please. I've actually played other games where players could customize PvP, so you could create melee only matches. I never heard anyone complain or rage quit. People were laughing.

The thing here is people are in denial because they don't want their pet weapons nerfed. We can agree that random nerfing may not be the best solution but don't tell me that doesn't point to some weapons being OPed, or to be more precise, more powerful in some ways so people perceive they're better.

I am realistic about this and people need to be honest. Why else would someone spend 4 million scrip for a weapon? Duh. It's not so they can shoot Raiders. There's nothing in PvE that requires super powerful weapons.

And people are not paying lots o' money (even real money) for weapons that do 40 damage. They don't want to pay (right now) even 30k for RLs and the complaint is always that RLs are under-powered.

The argument is in PvP you need skills to be top dog. And that, instead of whining about cheating or OPed weapons people need to get some skills. That means it's supposedly not about powerful ultra-rare weapons, right? So, what does it matter if a weapon gets nerfed-it's about skills.

Except we all know it isn't all about skills. It's about having that ultra-rare powerful super weapon and not wanting it to be any less powerful. Clearly it should be obvious just what sort of hierarchy this creates.

In other games at the very least everyone can most often obtain the exact same powerful weapon. If I don't like RPGs in CoD well at least I can get and use the exact same weapon myself. I really have no right to complain-the playing field is equal technically based upon weapons we can all use.

In this game, most weapons are fairly equal except there are ultra-rares that are way more powerful and some rares that are also extremely powerful, not per shot but based on their total effects.

Immunizers had no downside to their usage and no real counter unless used up close, but that wasn't their intended use and it's just not how they are used. They're used at sniper range, created instant blindness, have no need to be aimed expertly, have homing effect, repeat bug damage, and more. Top that off with a mistake in the game that made them fully auto, add on the right mods, and maybe use cloak and PvP became a joke.

People cannot ever assert they are not OPed. It's also a mistake to have any game devolve this quickly into mainly one or two builds. It doesn't add up to fun. And people need to get over themselves with this "whiners gonna whine". Sometimes, where there's smoke there's fire. And if PvP is about skills then no nerf should threaten those who claim they don't whine.

alienstookmybeer
07-25-2013, 08:31 AM
I'd imagine people will be mad too if they ever fix Controlled Burst mods.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 08:36 AM
I'd imagine people will be mad too if they ever fix Controlled Burst mods.

Yep, I had that exact "conversation" with one guy who was complaining that it would be fixed. I said he knew it was a bug so using the mod was taking a chance. He was angry that it would make the gun less powerful (where's your skills, guy), and less valuable (whatever that means with virtual items).

This is a game and playing PvP that is just Immunizers for all is no fun. I like mindless gaming as much as the next person, but really after awhile even I need something more than this.


If that's what people want then I sincerely hope Trion will let people create custom games that force people to use only certain weapons in them and that everyone gets the exact same weapon and can access the exact same perks, tournament style.

Tyger
07-25-2013, 08:40 AM
Meh, I just wanna' see the certain group of weaps that are syphon proc'n wayy to heavily be brought inline with the rest. That way I can go back to my SAW with the Corrosion effect and get off this Syphon circle-jerk train everyone seems to force pvp on.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 08:49 AM
Meh, I just wanna' see the certain group of weaps that are syphon proc'n wayy to heavily be brought inline with the rest. That way I can go back to my SAW with the Corrosion effect and get off this Syphon circle-jerk train everyone seems to force pvp on.

Yes, another example of an overused thing. Nerfing well maybe no, but selective buffing. As it is it seems like some fire effects are not as good as they used to be, and the other effects should be stronger, I think. If Syphon can do all the amazing things it can do then why aren't the other nanos at least as effective.

I mean if a nano has 2 effects then it seems like each effect should be half of its total power. That acid or corrosive effect is I think supposed to weaken a players' defense and/or health. Well that's one effect so that should be 2 times as strong as syphon's shield drain. That should make it pretty powerful, but it isn't. And fire's cumulative effect should be powerful too.

Dave Blackwell
07-25-2013, 09:01 AM
Please. I've actually played other games where players could customize PvP, so you could create melee only matches. I never heard anyone complain or rage quit. People were laughing.

I've came across a game that allowed something similar to this, the game? BF3. Regardless of genre you can rent a server on that game and if you're the owner of the server or appointed admin, you can be the dictator in your own little world. Someone doing something you don't like? Ban them. Someone bested you more times than you can handle? Ban them. From my time with that game, I recall more complaining than laughing. That's not to say it would be the same for every other game that offers the ability to choose (dictate) what is and isn't allowed.


The thing here is people are in denial because they don't want their pet weapons nerfed. We can agree that random nerfing may not be the best solution but don't tell me that doesn't point to some weapons being OPed, or to be more precise, more powerful in some ways so people perceive they're better.

It's not that people want their 'pet weapons' to remain top dog, for some this may be the case. But for others, such as myself, these 'nerfs' will never fix a thing, no matter what anyone who is for them says. Tell me how reducing the effectiveness of a handful of weapons while leaving some weapons which haven't been touched yet (I'll keep an eye out for you in the upcoming 'nerf' threads) is going to balance anything? The weapons that have been 'nerfed' when pitted against those that haven't received any loving yet will be considered 'OP' because they're 'better' than the weapons that had been 'nerfed'.

Hence why this cycle, once started, never ends.


I am realistic about this and people need to be honest. Why else would someone spend 4 million scrip for a weapon? Duh. It's not so they can shoot Raiders. There's nothing in PvE that requires super powerful weapons.

Fun factor, nuff said. This is a game, not a simulation in any sense - realistic thinking in regards to weapons handling is not required. Unless you would prefer ammo conservation, weapon cleaning and lugging around ammo boxes over what is offered; if that's the case: http://www.arma3.com/


And people are not paying lots o' money (even real money) for weapons that do 40 damage. They don't want to pay (right now) even 30k for RLs and the complaint is always that RLs are under-powered.

Which is why the focus should be on increasing the effectiveness of the plethora of absolutely useless weapons instead of on reducing the weapons that are effective. People aren't forking money out for underpowered weapons for the sole fact that they're underpowered. This is also why some weapons are considered 'OP' by whatever group is making these decisions, if all weapons that are currently considered rubbish due to being, you guessed it, underpowered were increased in their effectiveness then that would level out field and offer a more enticing menu of options for players to choose from.

Why would you choose something that would drag you down when you can choose one thing that will offer to be an advantage?


The argument is in PvP you need skills to be top dog. And that, instead of whining about cheating or OPed weapons people need to get some skills. That means it's supposedly not about powerful ultra-rare weapons, right? So, what does it matter if a weapon gets nerfed-it's about skills.

Except we all know it isn't all about skills. It's about having that ultra-rare powerful super weapon and not wanting it to be any less powerful. Clearly it should be obvious just what sort of hierarchy this creates.

No game requires any remote 'skill' other than the basic motorskills which every human being has, unless born otherwise. You're either highly receptive with them or you're not; if you aren't? Tough ****, that's how life goes - that means that person is the underdog. Weapons are not the sole determining factor in who will best who, thought and the perception of the environment also play just an equally important role. If player A is running around with their head up their *** then, obviously, player B who's being more observant and aware will always top them - regardless of weapon.


Immunizers had no downside to their usage and no real counter unless used up close, but that wasn't their intended use and it's just not how they are used. They're used at sniper range, created instant blindness, have no need to be aimed expertly, have homing effect, repeat bug damage, and more. Top that off with a mistake in the game that made them fully auto, add on the right mods, and maybe use cloak and PvP became a joke.

People cannot ever assert they are not OPed. It's also a mistake to have any game devolve this quickly into mainly one or two builds. It doesn't add up to fun. And people need to get over themselves with this "whiners gonna whine". Sometimes, where there's smoke there's fire. And if PvP is about skills then no nerf should threaten those who claim they don't whine.

People view immunizers as 'OP' because some are stuck in the mindset that it always has to correlate with what already exists in the real world. If people would start looking at these games as games and that they're meant to be played for fun, to kick back and used as an escape from the real world then close to no one would care about these issues.

You state how it's a mistake for any game to revolve around one or two builds. Tell me how exactly we're ever going to achieve this crazy idea of a balanced weapon cycle when each weapon class are not the same? Oh wait, I forgot that's right.. 'nerfing' eventually boils down to making every single weapon equal. Ah, I guess it doesn't matter when we reach that stage, huh? I guess the developers should just remove all weapons and leave us with just the melee attack. Oh, who am I kidding that's just as 'OP' as everything else because it does damage.

Tekrunner
07-25-2013, 09:05 AM
The only thing I'd really, really like to see changed with cloak is that I wish people shooting from cloak would show up on the radar, at least until they become fully cloaked again. The radar is often the best way to know where the person shooting at you is, especially in the chaos that shadow wars often turn into. Everything else that that power does is fine by me.
I'm saying this as a PC player (= someone who can turn 180 in an instant), who has never used cloak in PvP. YMMV.


I'd imagine people will be mad too if they ever fix Controlled Burst mods.

The effect of these mods is not nearly as big as it was on infectors. If they changed them to increase fire rate by 10%, it would actually be a buff for a large number of weapons (= any gun that fires in bursts or has a fire rate >= 12). The SAW would be about the only one to have its DPS decreased, but if the increased recoil were also removed it would not be a bad trade-off at all.

Chrono499
07-25-2013, 09:08 AM
but its still one less bug.


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Is that a pun? Or just funny

RandomSmurf
07-25-2013, 09:48 AM
It still shoots pretty fast. If you were going to die from it pre nerf then you're still going to die from it post nerf.

bigguy
07-25-2013, 10:16 AM
we may all have conflicting opinions about this nerf and that nerf and what was supposed to work one way and what was supposed to work another way so they should fix it , but what worries me is what someone mentioned earlier , which is nerfing things all the time will lead to one thing , all the weapons will become too similar too each other or the nerf didnt do what it was intended to so you get a shotgun with multiple mag bonuses which is now useless , TOO MUCH NERFING LEADS TO USELESS GUNS AND NO VARIETY , they shouldnt nerf the saw they should buff the other lmgs a saw nerf will not lead me to use the other lmgs they suck an lmg buff for other than the saw will cause me to reevaluate their usefullness

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 10:35 AM
snipped for space

You've repeatedly made the assumption that I'm for nerfing everything and think that I constantly post that this should happen randomly when I've consistently said I don't agree that should be so.

I have stated that it's disingenuous for people to act like the one specific weapon talked about in this thread was not OPed, not since almost everyone in PvP is using it all the time. And it's wrong for people to act like they never expected a bug in the game, the strain reducer one, to one day be addressed given all the legitimate complaints about Immunizers.

Immunizers have sniper range, no need for aiming, homing needles, and repeat bug tick damage. They blind the person attacked (don't blind NPCs at all) and with the right mods can be made even more impossible to avoid or evade. No other weapon in this game has so many things working for it. Top that off with something that was broken and it was the perfect no skill weapon. A person could sit at the default spawn point in Freight yard and get attack or defense point kills without the attacked player ever being able to see who's shooting them. Snipers at least have to aim.

Immunizers also can hit people in cloak. So, not only can they hit people from a distance, around objects, in cover, and repeatedly and blind them and do tick damage, they can also be shot into the air randomly and hit people that are cloaked. Please explain the downside to this and just what buffing other weapons might get that will subvert these abilities, as the Immunizer is meant to be used, at longer range.

As for other weapons, I've said I don't think nerfing is always or exclusively the best solution. I often don't think it's a solution at all, and have said buffing should be considered. I've also said real world physics would be my preferred manner of handling all this, but that probably wouldn't be easy and so would never be done. And people wouldn't like it if they couldn't hop around while shooting their Bonfire.

But, I also stand by this. People are not complaining because a weapon that everyone can get and use is being nerfed. And people have said that they're good at PvP because they have skills. The people who really have skills don't say this stuff and don't feel threatened by what's happening. Sure they may not like it just as I have said I don't want my SAW nerfed, but good skilled players have said they'll adapt. Those that aren't so skilled and have said it's not about the weapon are proving it is all about the weapon for them. They spent all that scrip to try to get a weapon that would help them rule PvP. And they don't have the real skills to adapt. They're whining just as much as those demanding nerfs are, and even more.

Whether or not I ever in the future participate in any nerfing threads is of no consequence. Every situation is unique. I'd like some weapons buffed and I can adapt if my favorite weapon is nerfed. I'll survive. And that's because my ability in PvP was never tied to one weapon or one build. I like variety and I have thousands of options. I'd also never spend even fake money (scrip) on a weapon in a game. It's more fun using what I find or earn-I've got some weapons I won in contests. That was way more fun than doing any trade.

Indra Echo
07-25-2013, 10:45 AM
we may all have conflicting opinions about this nerf and that nerf and what was supposed to work one way and what was supposed to work another way so they should fix it , but what worries me is what someone mentioned earlier , which is nerfing things all the time will lead to one thing , all the weapons will become too similar too each other or the nerf didnt do what it was intended to so you get a shotgun with multiple mag bonuses which is now useless , TOO MUCH NERFING LEADS TO USELESS GUNS AND NO VARIETY , they shouldnt nerf the saw they should buff the other lmgs a saw nerf will not lead me to use the other lmgs they suck an lmg buff for other than the saw will cause me to reevaluate their usefullness


I don't think that's their intent though. Along with nerfing some, they buff others. And I don't want all weapons to be the same either. I just think it makes sense that one or two weapons shouldn't become the holy grail for the entire life of the game when it's not even 6 months into the life of the game. I think that leads to stagnation.

Consider that people are now being told the "market" for SAWS and Immunizers has declined, but that for other LMGs and RLs it's on the rise. People in the game are being told to hold onto that Interceptor, it might be worth a mint when the buff comes. Don't you see the ridiculousness of this? I think Trion will nerf and buff as time goes on. They may think the SAW will need to be buffed in some way at another time. Who knows?

But what this thread is specifically about is whether or not people should get their panties in an uproar because Trion fixes a weapon bug. I think the more bugs they fix the better and this one did cause a rift. There are other weapon bugs that got fixed-permanent poop shoes with the Incubator got fixed. The reason people didn't go ballistic is because the Incubator wasn't used so much-because the shooter was vulnerable because it was a closer range weapon. But it got fixed and it needed to.

I do think nerfs should be used when needed, and avoided when other things can be considered. Every weapon should hae its upside and its downside, and no one weapon should be a multi-purpose. all powerful thing with no bad points. It's not wrong to dynamically re-assess the interaction of weapons and perks in the game and nothing is set in stone. RLs were nerfed and are about to be buffed. Hurrah!

Orbital
07-25-2013, 10:54 AM
How are them queues?

LOOKxATxTHISxI
07-25-2013, 02:05 PM
Only in PvP are they bad. But then PvP is waste of time with hackers etc which Trion cares not about.

So that leaves PvE as the only viable game left. But then they start nerfing weapons and before long they are all nerfed.Then one will stand out and be nerfed again...and so vicious circle of nerfing begins. Far better to buff underpar weapons than to nerf. It NEVER works.


So far every mmo that i have played in has seen PvPkiddies moan about this and that and had stuff nerfed across the board because its too difficult to make a separate system, pvp & pve, that works. Then the kiddies start ranting about how their money is worth more or something and so they have MORE right to get what THEY want.


Usually ****in ****. tbh.


I dont even really care about infectors or SAW .Not a part of my main loadouts. Just sick of seeing folk whine and whine and whine until they get stuff nerfed just because THEY were having issues.

The small vical whining minority (in EVERY mmo)

This ^ x1000. I sit in ques forever to try to get into pvp, shadow wars. All these people pissing and moaning about every weapon in the game I gotta know when and where they are playing. I'm sick as hell of these guys needing every decent weapon because 3% of the players who play the pvp etc... Don't like something.

The same people crying about every gun are the same ones using cloak and auto shottys/detonators/vehicle spamming. Triton needs to have a specific weapon load out that goes into pvp then everyone is on the same turf. It becomes a gun game then. Stop nerfing everything because someone kills another with it. Before too long you will only be able to melee kill someone and that will need a reload nerf as well.

maverick07
07-25-2013, 02:49 PM
They were never meant to turn infectors in to full auto weps. I read alot of threads about them not fixing bugs and this is was a bug and they fixed it....sure its not a bug most of us wanted fixed (especially with all the other bugs they need to focus on) but its still one less bug. Why are people mad? Is it because they did it without properly warning everyone? Is it just the method in which they fixed it?

I'm not mad at the change. But it's annoying that they can't say exactly what they changed in the patch notes. They've done this with all of their "balance changes" so far, I'm talking about the ones that they've actually made not the thread about the SAWs and stuff, that might be coming soon. They should at least give us numbers on what they changed and be straight up about it in the notes.