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Maitreakow
07-26-2013, 06:00 AM
Just wanted to see if I am the only one who noticed this.

In light of the recent uproar over the impending SAW nerf (Still no word on how much they plan on bringing it down), I have found myself wondering why there everyone is so very upset. There seems to be two categories of players who post about this.

First are the players who are upset because it is their go-to/favorite weapon. Now some of these players are also the ones who I see constantly complaining that the game is too easy and there is no difficulty involved. To these folks I have to ask, "If the game is too easy for you and provides no challenge, why are you upset that they are going to be making it more of a challenge by reducing the effectiveness of the most powerful General Purpose weapon in the game?" Note, I said general purpose. There are other weapons that perform better/equally well for specific circumstances, Wolfhound and Crits come to mind as do Ground pounders and Hellbugs, however if you don't want to bother swapping loadouts, there is NO better weapon for doing it all than the SAW. You can manually burst fire for distant targets, you can rock 'n roll for medium/close range, you can use OC and have a huge DPS laser since it removes the recoil.
"But it's a FUN weapon to use, don't take away my fun!" Why is it so fun to use, because you CAN pull a Rambo and mow down whole groups of Raiders without too much worry, especially with the correct "Tank" build. That "fun" for you is one of the larger sources of complaint from others, mostly because they can't/won't use a less powerful weapon to make the game more challenging. I see the upcoming nerf as Trion's way of trying to address this issue.

Second group I understand a bit better. They are concerned that the nerfs will lead to more nerfs of other weapons, then the next "best" will get the nerf hammer, ad nauseum. What if, just stay with me here, the nerf they have planned for the SAW just brings it down to a level equivalent to the other leading weapons of their class. No stand out all around weapon that get sold for millions of scrip. There will be no endless rounds of nerfs to knock down the ONE weapon that stands out above all the rest.
Maybe I will be proven wrong and an endless cycle of nerfs WILL ensue, but I am willing to wait and see and hope that there will also be buffs to weapons that need it. Yes there are a plethora that fit this bill, too many to really list.

Just my 2 scrip

Comments and a calm, non-inflammatory discussion are not only welcome, but desired as well.

TravelerX1
07-26-2013, 06:22 AM
I am of group number two. The only thing I use a SAW for is arkfalls, and now that they give weapon XP..... not even those. Infectors.... only until I get to level 20 in them.

My problem with the nerfs is that in the light of other system flaws, why are they being made?

We have weapons that can't take advantage of certain synergies (Mag bonus on RLs, etc)
Mods that have become de-powered due to nerfs (Shotgun Mags)
Guns that have 4 slot synergies, but only 3 mod types available
RAMPANT infectors in PvP to the point that it induces migraines.
Weapons that could use a buff to bring them into the range of "Useable"
(Distruptor, Sawed Offs, Rocket Launchers, BMGs) that are being ignored.

This is just my opinion.....

But all of this could be fixed if they buffed a few items, reduced the homing ability on Infectors to like 50% of what it is now, added the missing Mods, and made bonuses for low ammo weapons use the + system rather then Percentage system - and make Mods, Bonuses, and Synergies award on the + side for those types of weapons. The whole system would be balanced and it would make sense. Right now it feels "Unfinished"

Deikon
07-26-2013, 06:22 AM
I also don't understand the hating on overpowered guns and yes, compared to other LMGs the SAW is better. This doesn't stop me from using the LMGs though. I have a large inventory with close to sixty weapons and every loadout I have has different weapons on it. I'm constantly switching them out. I'd get bored with double SAWs and preparedness (I think that's one I seen posts about). I'm strictly PvE right now, haven't touched PvP yet, and yes using the "poorer" weapons can and does get me killed playing. It's all about fun and playing a GAME, nothing more than a game, if it doesn't work for some nights I just move on and play something else. So let TRION nerf, buff, change, whatever....I really won't care.

Tekrunner
07-26-2013, 06:34 AM
I feel like people in the second group don't quite understand what Trion is trying to do with regards to weapon balance in PvE. They're not trying to make it so that each and every weapon is equal(ly bad). They just seem to have a fairly specific idea of how long and how difficult it should be for a player to kill easy (mutants, raiders), medium (99ers, dark matter) and hard enemies (volges, elites). The SAW made things too easy, and that's why it's getting nerfed. But on the other hand, rocket launchers, which are mostly useless in PvE right now, are getting buffed, because they're too difficult to use efficiently.

MartyrMarcus
07-26-2013, 06:37 AM
I'm kind of stuck between the groups. The saw is one of my favourite weapons for exactly the reasons you stated, but I don't want one nerf leading to another leading to another ad infinitum.

That being said, when you rank the saw up against other LMGs it outclasses all of them by a lot. As a general rule of thumb when one thing is largely superior to its kin, then that is the problem not the rest. Although I do think the other LMGs need some fine tuning (Thunder a higher crit chance and the disruptor a much lower pause between firing for example)

Myria
07-26-2013, 07:29 AM
In light of the recent uproar over the impending SAW nerf (Still no word on how much they plan on bringing it down), I have found myself wondering why there everyone is so very upset.


Personally I don't really 'get' why people are so hot on the SAW. I have one, I use it occasionally, it's a fine weapon with a place in the rotation, but I prefer my ARs.

Different strokes, I suppose.

That having been said, when discussing why some people are upset about things you can't discount history. The history of nerfs in this game has not been pretty, to the point where I find people's dread of the term a lot more understandable here than in games I've played where the devs were a little less... Heavy handed.


Now some of these players are also the ones who I see constantly complaining that the game is too easy and there is no difficulty involved. To these folks I have to ask, "If the game is too easy for you and provides no challenge, why are you upset that they are going to be making it more of a challenge by reducing the effectiveness of the most powerful General Purpose weapon in the game?"

Reducing the damage on one gun or all guns won't make the game any more difficult, only more tedious. The lack of difficulty is in the lack of tactics or teamwork necessary to win. There's only a few mobs that require any special consideration at all, and at that not a lot. Making every mob take ten more rounds before they expire in no way, shape, or form makes anything more difficult.


Maybe I will be proven wrong and an endless cycle of nerfs WILL ensue,

Will? In less then four months we've seen multiple weapons and two entire classes of weapons nerfed to oblivion.

It's not a question of whether or not there will be a cycle of nerfs, that ship has already long since sailed.

Maitreakow
07-26-2013, 07:37 AM
Personally I don't really 'get' why people are so hot on the SAW. I have one, I use it occasionally, it's a fine weapon with a place in the rotation, but I prefer my ARs.

Different strokes, I suppose.

I also leveled my ARs to 20 first, then I realized what a beast the SAW was. In all honesty, I have only played around with any of the other LMGs for maybe half of a weapon's XP bar or less.


That having been said, when discussing why some people are upset about things you can't discount history. The history of nerfs in this game has not been pretty, to the point where I find people's dread of the term a lot more understandable here than in games I've played where the devs were a little less... Heavy handed.

Reducing the damage on one gun or all guns won't make the game any more difficult, only more tedious. The lack of difficulty is in the lack of tactics or teamwork necessary to win. There's only a few mobs that require any special consideration at all, and at that not a lot. Making every mob take ten more rounds before they expire in no way, shape, or form makes anything more difficult.

I agree with your sentiment of actual difficulty, but one of the examples I hear constantly when talking about the lack of difficulty is that the player hardly needs to fear basic Mobs. They can stand still and blaze away and feel confident of coming out of the fight upright. This was the complaint I was addressing.


Will? In less then four months we've seen multiple weapons and two entire classes of weapons nerfed to oblivion.

It's not a question of whether or not there will be a cycle of nerfs, that ship has already long since sailed.

Those nerfs were based entirely on PvP balance. AFAIK this is the first time Trion has put forth a nerf not based around PvP complaints, that is the main reason I am holding out hope it will be different.

Thank you for your responses everyone, it is nice to see a calm and reasoned discussion on this topic.

Gomly
07-26-2013, 07:46 AM
What if, just stay with me here, the nerf they have planned for the SAW just brings it down to a level equivalent to the other leading weapons of their class.

If only it worked that way.

Time and time again, in every single MMO i've seen, once the nerfs start .... they don't stop.

I'm not concerned about what guns they do or don't nerf but some of us can see what comes next from a mile away with flashing neon signs.

There will be a gun that outperforms the rest once the SAW is brought down.

Some folk will whine about it.

Trion will nerf it.

And so on and so forth until all we have left are water pistols ..... without water because it might get someone in the eye and that's dangerous.

crasher
07-26-2013, 08:26 AM
Just wanted to see if I am the only one who noticed this.

In light of the recent uproar over the impending SAW nerf (Still no word on how much they plan on bringing it down), I have found myself wondering why there everyone is so very upset. There seems to be two categories of players who post about this.

First are the players who are upset because it is their go-to/favorite weapon. Now some of these players are also the ones who I see constantly complaining that the game is too easy and there is no difficulty involved. To these folks I have to ask, "If the game is too easy for you and provides no challenge, why are you upset that they are going to be making it more of a challenge by reducing the effectiveness of the most powerful General Purpose weapon in the game?" Note, I said general purpose. There are other weapons that perform better/equally well for specific circumstances, Wolfhound and Crits come to mind as do Ground pounders and Hellbugs, however if you don't want to bother swapping loadouts, there is NO better weapon for doing it all than the SAW. You can manually burst fire for distant targets, you can rock 'n roll for medium/close range, you can use OC and have a huge DPS laser since it removes the recoil.
"But it's a FUN weapon to use, don't take away my fun!" Why is it so fun to use, because you CAN pull a Rambo and mow down whole groups of Raiders without too much worry, especially with the correct "Tank" build. That "fun" for you is one of the larger sources of complaint from others, mostly because they can't/won't use a less powerful weapon to make the game more challenging. I see the upcoming nerf as Trion's way of trying to address this issue.

Second group I understand a bit better. They are concerned that the nerfs will lead to more nerfs of other weapons, then the next "best" will get the nerf hammer, ad nauseum. What if, just stay with me here, the nerf they have planned for the SAW just brings it down to a level equivalent to the other leading weapons of their class. No stand out all around weapon that get sold for millions of scrip. There will be no endless rounds of nerfs to knock down the ONE weapon that stands out above all the rest.
Maybe I will be proven wrong and an endless cycle of nerfs WILL ensue, but I am willing to wait and see and hope that there will also be buffs to weapons that need it. Yes there are a plethora that fit this bill, too many to really list.

Just my 2 scrip

Comments and a calm, non-inflammatory discussion are not only welcome, but desired as well.

Just a couple of my thoughts:
1.) "....go-to/favorite weapon": and "There are other weapons that perform better/equally well"....

-The SAW is 'Too Powerful', yet you want people to start using a more powerful weapon like the Wolfhound and Ground Pounder more often? Whens the last time somebody did 7 million damage on arkfalls, and posted screenshots of huge damage numbers, or solo'd a series of A-falls alone using a SAW? There's one large thread filled with some of the better/best solo players in the game boasting that they did just that and suggesting people were wasting time using the SAW when they ought use the Wolf Hound. And the Ground Pounder is already used to carpet bomb A-falls indiscriminately and cause people to mention migraines and 'seizure inducing events'.

Why would you want to go there?

2.) If people are using the SAW exclusively, they aren't leveling up their other weapons, That means they're not getting experience jumps at 4 EGO points / level added to their EGO number. That's only hurting themselves, not me, you, or anyone else. I don't need Nanny Trion doing MORE to induce me to do whats 'good for me'. I already have the gov't socially engineering my life. I come to the game as a respite from carp like that.

3.) "Second group I understand a bit better." ...

- It always happens that way. Social engineering leads to more social engineering, trying to lead us down the correct path when we think for ourselves and devise work-arounds that deviate from that path. Your suggestion, when it follows the inevitable outcome in many other games, leads to more weapons all doing the same (+/- 10%) damage in all situations, and why bother using weapon A when weapons B thru N do the same thing in the same way anyway?

4.) "Maybe I will be proven wrong and an endless cycle of nerfs WILL ensue, but I am willing to wait and see and hope that there will also be buffs to weapons that need it."

- And if you're wrong, what then? Trion declares "Oops, we made a mistake', and rolls the game back to pre-nerf status after spending how long nerfing how big a percentage of the weapons pool? It certainly wont be after SAWs, it'll not happen after Wolfhounds and Ground Pounders and the 5th or 6th weapon class gets nerfed either.

-And what happens to the people who invested time/effort into weapons skills and style, with mods and synergies? 'Well, tough, wasted effort/resources/time. Go learn something new, or quit.....'?

Are you going to be OK when the equally powerful and now more widely used Wolfhound and Ground Pounder become the most used weapons, and need nerfs because people use them too often?

-What happens when all the n00bs, (who are being recruited to replace the original players who left due to dissatisfaction) leave when they find out that the SAW, one of the more useful and fun weapons in a sea of under performing stuff, is now equally under performing, and don't bother to stick around a game that can require a full SAW mag or CS-X mag (to the face, no less) to kill one raider or blaster? You having such an easy time in Motherlode with SAWs, might want to try it with a Disruptor next time.

- I and many others want to play a satisfying game NOW, not 'wait and see' if the game weapons get borked enough to go find a better game, and hope that TRION MAYBE re-balances stuff AGAIN in a never-ending pursuit to make all weapons equally suck so that there are no favorites.


I'm Lvl 20 in everything but Infs/BMGs/Dets and rockets, and most of those are over 15. Not a boast, just pointing out that I use a lot of stuff besides the SAW.


Trions new motto can then become: "Game play and weapons balancing: We get it right the 6th time'

Thanks, Maitreakow, and to anyone who read this.

cusman
07-26-2013, 08:52 AM
I am of group number two. The only thing I use a SAW for is arkfalls, and now that they give weapon XP..... not even those. Infectors.... only until I get to level 20 in them.

My problem with the nerfs is that in the light of other system flaws, why are they being made?

We have weapons that can't take advantage of certain synergies (Mag bonus on RLs, etc)
Mods that have become de-powered due to nerfs (Shotgun Mags)
Guns that have 4 slot synergies, but only 3 mod types available
RAMPANT infectors in PvP to the point that it induces migraines.
Weapons that could use a buff to bring them into the range of "Useable"
(Distruptor, Sawed Offs, Rocket Launchers, BMGs) that are being ignored.

This is just my opinion.....

But all of this could be fixed if they buffed a few items, reduced the homing ability on Infectors to like 50% of what it is now, added the missing Mods, and made bonuses for low ammo weapons use the + system rather then Percentage system - and make Mods, Bonuses, and Synergies award on the + side for those types of weapons. The whole system would be balanced and it would make sense. Right now it feels "Unfinished"

I think Rocket Launchers and BMGs are pretty good already. They are great support weapons, and you can do well in 1-vs-1 too.

Your other points are what I think Trion should spend more of their time on than nerfing weapons like SAW which no one is asking for... not that I know of.

Weapon Synergy Bonuses that don't apply to the weapon class they are on
Weapon types that don't have any mods for 1 of their of their slots
Infectors being rampant and annoying in PvP which I hope the Strain Reducer nerf has addressed... but time will tell.

Beyond that they have long standing bugs like not being able to pick your PvP costume and the Cerberus riders leaving stationary targets behind somewhere on the map for other team to shoot and kill. Those things bug me more than any of the other issues.

Maitreakow
07-26-2013, 12:34 PM
I think Rocket Launchers and BMGs are pretty good already. They are great support weapons, and you can do well in 1-vs-1 too.

Your other points are what I think Trion should spend more of their time on than nerfing weapons like SAW which no one is asking for... not that I know of.

Weapon Synergy Bonuses that don't apply to the weapon class they are on
Weapon types that don't have any mods for 1 of their of their slots
Infectors being rampant and annoying in PvP which I hope the Strain Reducer nerf has addressed... but time will tell.

Beyond that they have long standing bugs like not being able to pick your PvP costume and the Cerberus riders leaving stationary targets behind somewhere on the map for other team to shoot and kill. Those things bug me more than any of the other issues.

I don't deny there are other issues that I think could/should have taken precedent over the SAW nerf. So while I may disagree with the timing, I don't disagree with it happening.

maverick07
07-26-2013, 01:00 PM
I don't really have an issue with a slight SAW nerf, like say, 10%. What I have a problem with is when they said they want to bring the SAW down to be in line with the other LMGs in power.

When the rest of the LMGs are severely underpowered, especially the Rocker, and Disruptor. If they wish to bring the SAW down in line with those guns... I'm worried it's going to get a huge nerf.

janzig
07-26-2013, 01:06 PM
The great thing about this game is how different weapons have advantages in different situations, and have unique 'feels' when playing. Because of the pursuits I forced myself to play with all of the weapon types and, surpisingly, found that they were all for the most part, fun and useful once I adjusted my play style. Hell, I even started to like BMGs while I was leveling them to 10.

Great design by the dev team for 'most' of the weapons. They all have a role and a situation where they shine. Same for the SAW. The SAW is unique as a high powered, but slow and inaccurate base weapon. If they take its damage away, the fear is it will just become a slow, crappy AR. FYI, the heavy AR can hit with just as much damage as a SAW, but is more accurate.

I think they should 'look into' weapon performance (other LMGs come to mind) but am leery of knee-jerk reactions because as others have said, we don't want to lose what makes each weapon type unique and fun.

DarknessEyes PT
07-26-2013, 01:06 PM
Its simple:
Nerf overpowered weapons, buff worst weapons and enemies AI.

Sdric
07-26-2013, 01:12 PM
Reducing SAW damage was the wrong decision.
Increasing recoil would have been a better option.

However, SAWs don't dominate because they're overpowerd - but simply because the whol LMG and most ARs suck in this game compared with other weapon categories.

At 25 meters it takes more than 35 bullets to bring down a shield if your opponent has at least 2/9 def perks (it's likely that he'll have 7/9).

ARs and LMGs are cotton-cannons.
They COULD be decent if it was they were accurate enough to go for headshots.
But guess what - even at 10m your crosshair will be 8 times big as an enemy head (zoomed!).

No wonder why noboy uses them!

It sure feels wrong to buff two whole weapon categories.
But nerfing 5 isn't an option either.

Maitreakow
07-26-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't really have an issue with a slight SAW nerf, like say, 10%. What I have a problem with is when they said they want to bring the SAW down to be in line with the other LMGs in power.

When the rest of the LMGs are severely underpowered, especially the Rocker, and Disruptor. If they wish to bring the SAW down in line with those guns... I'm worried it's going to get a huge nerf.

They actually said in line with other weapons, not LMGs. That has a lot to do with my hope this will not be a super nerf...

RealHoosier07
07-26-2013, 03:06 PM
Reducing SAW damage was the wrong decision.
Increasing recoil would have been a better option.

However, SAWs don't dominate because they're overpowerd - but simply because the whol LMG and most ARs suck in this game compared with other weapon categories.

At 25 meters it takes more than 35 bullets to bring down a shield if your opponent has at least 2/9 def perks (it's likely that he'll have 7/9).

ARs and LMGs are cotton-cannons.
They COULD be decent if it was they were accurate enough to go for headshots.
But guess what - even at 10m your crosshair will be 8 times big as an enemy head (zoomed!).

No wonder why noboy uses them!

It sure feels wrong to buff two whole weapon categories.
But nerfing 5 isn't an option either.

Nerfing more guns IS the best option. Why is everyone so against nerfing some of these weapons? All it does is make the game harder, which is what is needed. This game doesn't challenge people much. The Arkfalls are a joke when I can just stand in one spot and not pay any attention to enemies around me...and never die, because there are so many other arkhunters there. The Volge are harder than most, but once you figure them out, they aren't that hard either. If I were a developer, I would nerf the Wolfhound, Infectors, and the SAW. If all of these guns would have started out with lower stats, nobody would be complaining. The game would just feel harder and more challenging. I'm all for nerfing other weapons along with the SAW.

One nerf that NEEDS to happen is actually a glitch. The FRC Heavy Assault Carbine with a controlled burst +3 mod. I don't know who has noticed, but if you just tap the trigger as fast as possilble without waiting for the 3 shots to end, it actually becomes a fully auto gun. The TACC is okay, because it makes you time your trigger pulls right. It doesn't shoot again until the 3 shots are done. The FRC Heavy Assault Carbine doesn't. You can interrupt the burst by tapping the trigger again, which makes the gun fire like full auto guns. The reason I say this is because I have that gun with nano radiation and controlled burst..and I take out every Volge enemy like they are nothing. That guns is a Volge killer...maybe the best Volge killer in the game. They need to fix the mod so it works normally.

Remember folks, the only thing that changes by nerfing guns is the difficulty of the game. Nothing more. Thats a good thing, imho

Colif
07-26-2013, 11:12 PM
The really annoying thing about nerfs is that the weapon changes happen in both pvp and pve. So People want a nerf of infectors due to what they do in pvp BUT have they ever tried to use the things in pve? They aren't even in the same category as Ground Pounder/SAW yet people cry nerf them. So much easier if the weapons were different in pvp to pve.. then you could nerf them all down to sticks all I care.

I am in 2nd group, I used to be in 1st but worked out the SAW was too good and realized a rebalance would happen at some stage, and I never like relying on 1 weapon type. Any weapon that the majority of us use will be looked at, I assume they want us to use a wide variety of weapons, not just particular ones.

TwwiX
07-26-2013, 11:28 PM
Nerfing more guns IS the best option. Why is everyone so against nerfing some of these weapons? All it does is make the game harder, which is what is needed. This game doesn't challenge people much.

The game doesn't challenge people because of its poor AI, not because the weapons are overpowered. Nerfing weapons will add to the grind, nothing else. They buffed the mobs health during the last days of the closed beta and now they're infusing even more grind into the game making the combat even less enjoyable. They should be focusing on creating new content and actually improving the AI instead of trying to prolong the game's longevity with this nonsense. Also, if they're listening to the whining of the PvP folk they're going to run this game even sooner into the ground.

jbob spittlewop
07-27-2013, 12:23 AM
With the amount of dps the saw puts out it should have much lower accuracy, the Disruptor needs increased burst frequency and a bit of a damage boost, thunder isn't too bad but personally I think it could use a crit boost. The rocker I hasn't had much experience with.

Tekrunner
07-27-2013, 04:08 AM
At 25 meters it takes more than 35 bullets to bring down a shield if your opponent has at least 2/9 def perks (it's likely that he'll have 7/9).

Okay what? The highest capacity a shield can reach is around 2100. The only 2 commonly used defensive perks that always apply to shields are rear guard and cellular armor, for a 36% combined damage reduction. That's only if you're firing from behind, without the +15% damage perk. At 25m I'm pretty sure you don't suffer any reduction from falloff.

So, with a modded level 20 SAW, you need: 2100 / (452*0.64) = 8 bullets
With a modded level 20 VBI AR: 2100 / (246*0.64) = 13 bullets

Sdric
07-27-2013, 04:15 AM
@RealHoosier07

You're loocking at it from a PvE point of view, I'm on the PvP side.

There are other ways to make PvE more exciting than fcking up all weapons.

Do you really want weapons to be less accurate?
It it fun for you to have a head in the middle of crosshair but you still don't even hit his feet?

Please, do me a favor and play CoD.

Lower the damage?
You should really play PvP if you don't get this; it takes you several magazines to take down a standing target with an AR at ~20m.

It's a freaking joke.


Go check Ark's PvP montages, you can see him 1v3ing Assault and LMG users with his sniper rifle.

And don't please tell me sniper rifles are op....


@Tek.
You forget "in the trenches" , "Failsave"+Rebel, ( possible shield bonus reduction stats ),

Plus: Try using an AR other VBI.
VBI barely have falloff damage.
Use a normal FRC AR.
The damage drops incredibly fast at range.

nitroz76
07-27-2013, 05:03 AM
Buff everything.

The only nerfs that should be made are removing EGO powers in PVP. Thats the real cause of imbalance

Gomly
07-27-2013, 05:17 AM
Problems with weapons in PvP?

Problem with perks in PvP?

Remove PvP ..... I have solved the problem.

RealHoosier07
07-27-2013, 02:03 PM
I don't care about the PVP aspect of it Sdric....even the developers have said things that show they don't put pvp at the forefront. This game was developed to be a MASSIVE CO-OP, and thats the most important aspect of the game for the developers. The new producer even said on the live blog that adding a game mode in pvp that would exclude infectors and detonators is NOT A priority. His answer pretty much summed up that the pvp is a sidenote in this game.
I'm done playing COD because I'm over pvp for awhile. That's the reason I bought Defiance. I suggest YOU go play COD or Battlefield if you care about pvp, because many of us don't....including Trion. Sorry, but thats just the truth.

I don't want the guns to be less accurate. The only stat that needs changed is damage. Some guns need a little buff, some need a little nerf. This game is too easy and people want a bigger challenge. Lowering the damage on the Saw is one step to making this CO-OP game more challenging.

RealHoosier07
07-27-2013, 02:07 PM
The game doesn't challenge people because of its poor AI, not because the weapons are overpowered. Nerfing weapons will add to the grind, nothing else. They buffed the mobs health during the last days of the closed beta and now they're infusing even more grind into the game making the combat even less enjoyable. They should be focusing on creating new content and actually improving the AI instead of trying to prolong the game's longevity with this nonsense. Also, if they're listen to the whining of the PvP folk, they're going to run this game even sooner into the ground.

I agree that the AI needs tweaked. No doubt about that.

Sanguinesun
07-27-2013, 02:38 PM
I agree that the AI needs tweaked. No doubt about that.


They could always bring back mobs being able to wall hack style shoot you. Im sure folks would love that challenge :P

Valentine
07-27-2013, 02:43 PM
Buff weapons after they make mobs smarter with a cover system for both us and mobs =)

Orbital
07-27-2013, 03:08 PM
The problem is Trion has a bad track record of over-nerfing stuff. They nerfed missile launchers so bad that they are now buffing them because hardly anyone used them except for the mass and swarm cannons. They messed up the shotgun clip sizes, immunizer fire rates. I haven't seen exactly how badly they are going to mess with the SAW, but it wouldn't surprise me if they make them unusable.

Dave Blackwell
07-27-2013, 05:47 PM
Buff weapons after they make mobs smarter with a cover system for both us and mobs.

This is the solution right here.

Now for the topic of the thread;

I don't feel like spouting the usual sentences I find myself parroting in each and every single thread that's concerning any weapon being 'nerfed' whether I use that weapon or not. But I will put in a few words. Answer me this, oh great ones: Why do people choose to use supposedly 'OP' weapons instead of the plethora of weapons which are underpowered? Whoops. I think I just answered my own question.

Hm. I really do wonder.

Maybe.. because the other weapons are useless? Perhaps. I don't know - underpowered? Hence why you increase the effectiveness of the weapons which are considered rubbish and that entices more players to possibly consider using different types of weapons, instead of sticking to one specific type. Why choose a weapon that's bad, whereas you could you pick one which is better?

TwwiX
07-27-2013, 08:03 PM
Buff weapons after they make mobs smarter with a cover system for both us and mobs =)

That'll never happen. That would actually require some effort from them.

But, yeah. I agree. This game could have been fantastic with a combat system more akin to cover based shooters like Gears of War and Mass Effect 3's co-op. The latter might just be a glorified horde mode but the dynamic, team oriented combat and its adaptive AI make up for its flaws.

Nerfs in a game like this is just ****ing stupid. It won't change your tactics, it will just cost you more ammo. Let's not kid ourselves here. The only reason this is happening is because has so much little to offer. **** like this will only add to the frustration and make me want to play the game even less. You should be making the little things that you call content more fun instead of reducing the fun factor.

This game has obvious potential but this developer appears to have its collective head up its rear.

HadesDragoness
07-31-2013, 02:46 AM
Just wanted to see if I am the only one who noticed this.

In light of the recent uproar over the impending SAW nerf (Still no word on how much they plan on bringing it down), I have found myself wondering why there everyone is so very upset. There seems to be two categories of players who post about this.

First are the players who are upset because it is their go-to/favorite weapon. Now some of these players are also the ones who I see constantly complaining that the game is too easy and there is no difficulty involved. To these folks I have to ask, "If the game is too easy for you and provides no challenge, why are you upset that they are going to be making it more of a challenge by reducing the effectiveness of the most powerful General Purpose weapon in the game?" Note, I said general purpose. There are other weapons that perform better/equally well for specific circumstances, Wolfhound and Crits come to mind as do Ground pounders and Hellbugs, however if you don't want to bother swapping loadouts, there is NO better weapon for doing it all than the SAW. You can manually burst fire for distant targets, you can rock 'n roll for medium/close range, you can use OC and have a huge DPS laser since it removes the recoil.
"But it's a FUN weapon to use, don't take away my fun!" Why is it so fun to use, because you CAN pull a Rambo and mow down whole groups of Raiders without too much worry, especially with the correct "Tank" build. That "fun" for you is one of the larger sources of complaint from others, mostly because they can't/won't use a less powerful weapon to make the game more challenging. I see the upcoming nerf as Trion's way of trying to address this issue.

Second group I understand a bit better. They are concerned that the nerfs will lead to more nerfs of other weapons, then the next "best" will get the nerf hammer, ad nauseum. What if, just stay with me here, the nerf they have planned for the SAW just brings it down to a level equivalent to the other leading weapons of their class. No stand out all around weapon that get sold for millions of scrip. There will be no endless rounds of nerfs to knock down the ONE weapon that stands out above all the rest.
Maybe I will be proven wrong and an endless cycle of nerfs WILL ensue, but I am willing to wait and see and hope that there will also be buffs to weapons that need it. Yes there are a plethora that fit this bill, too many to really list.

Just my 2 scrip

Comments and a calm, non-inflammatory discussion are not only welcome, but desired as well.


I am between groups. The Saw is my fave but I do not find the game any easier. I just love the gun, the sound, the feel. My main reason being against the nerf is that it is a Light Machine Gun not a potato popper and it already has a slow reload, recoil etc unless you get the right mods in. They should bring the guns of this category up instead of bringing the Saw down. There are loads of guns out there so if someone thinks the saw makes it too easy, well use another gun and make the game more challenging. No one is forcing them to use the Saw. But others, like myself, love the saw and find it fun. That is my preference and I should not have that fun taken from me because others find that using Saw is not fun. Ok I am rambling now but I think my point is in there somewhere.

Arsenic_Touch
07-31-2013, 02:53 AM
You're forgetting those that realize the rest of the guns in the LMG category are just terrible and need to be brought up to be in line with the SAW instead of the other way around. There are a few in the other categories, SMG/AR that need to be brought up as well.

Maitreakow
07-31-2013, 06:50 AM
You're forgetting those that realize the rest of the guns in the LMG category are just terrible and need to be brought up to be in line with the SAW instead of the other way around. There are a few in the other categories, SMG/AR that need to be brought up as well.

As I stated earlier, my hope is that when they said "in line with other weapons" they meant the top weapons of other classes, rather than the rest of the LMGs. I completely agree that the other LMGs need a lot of love from the Buff fairy.

That came out wrong...

Anthalus
07-31-2013, 07:57 AM
I have no problem with a small nerf getting that right would be far easier than trying to buff 5 other weapons. Some of the most vehement objections to various nerfs I've read is that people are spending insane amounts of money on the latest 'Uber Weapon' and mods, that opportunistic sellers have way overpriced (cant really blame sellers if there are idiots out there willing to pay crazy amounts but it does screw players who don't have massive amounts of scrip) then when the nerf comes they get angry that they wasted all that cash rather than telling themselves they should have seen it coming. Was lucky enough to pick up a wolfhound with crit mult bonus and Assassin synergy but am really loathe to think about buying assassin mods at the prices wanted when I'm expecting a nerf due to everyone telling everyone else to use wolfhounds.

Maitreakow
07-31-2013, 08:02 AM
I have no problem with a small nerf getting that right would be far easier than trying to buff 5 other weapons. Some of the most vehement objections to various nerfs I've read is that people are spending insane amounts of money on the latest 'Uber Weapon' and mods, that opportunistic sellers have way overpriced (cant really blame sellers if there are idiots out there willing to pay crazy amounts but it does screw players who don't have massive amounts of scrip) then when the nerf comes they get angry that they wasted all that cash rather than telling themselves they should have seen it coming. Was lucky enough to pick up a wolfhound with crit mult bonus and Assassin synergy but am really loathe to think about buying assassin mods at the prices wanted when I'm expecting a nerf due to everyone telling everyone else to use wolfhounds.

There might be a nerf down the road for the Wolfhound, but since it is a situational weapon only (AFs and the like with a reletively stable Crit area), I am not positive if it will happen, or how bad it would be...

Anthalus
07-31-2013, 08:34 AM
I find the Wolfhound to be more general purpose myself just lacking in accuracy when fired rapidly over range but then again it is a pistol and I'm happy with that limitation, I have been playing FPS games for 24 years on high spec PC's so am used to the mechanics of headshots (loved getting a HEADSHOT in UT from across the map with an unscoped Sniper rifle) and am wondering about trying PvP (not really that interested) with my wolfhound but if it works I'll pretty much guarantee that nerf. My wolfhound that I currently use is a basic blue with syphon with max mag and crit mult mods added and find it to be the best weapon for me on anything I can get within 25 yrds of.

p.s. Thank you to all posters for making this a pleasurable thread to read, makes a change to see different ppl's takes on things without the shouting, screaming and abuse common to most threads, although I realise I've now jinxed the thread and apologise ;)

Maitreakow
07-31-2013, 08:40 AM
p.s. Thank you to all posters for making this a pleasurable thread to read, makes a change to see different ppl's takes on things without the shouting, screaming and abuse common to most threads, although I realise I've now jinxed the thread and apologise ;)

Completely agree, thank you to those who have posted so far.

IAMVILELENT
08-05-2013, 02:03 PM
It's pretty cut and dry.

Nerf the SAW, Players Quit, Hemorrhage players, Kill your game.

Nerf the Infector, Make majority happy, people that quit PVP BECAUSE of infectors MIGHT start playing again. Slow down the games bleeding.

Buff other weapons, Makes everyone happy, maybe people start flocking back. Clot up the bleeding, with a little spotting here and there.

nitroz76
08-05-2013, 02:26 PM
BMGs could use a HUGE buff.

Evolution
08-05-2013, 03:10 PM
No matter what you do, you can't please EVERYONE. That's just a fact. There are too many different personality types, personal preferences, and opinions of what constitute a "Challenge", what is "Boring", and what is "Fun". So, IMHO, I think they should be focusing on what will upset the Least number of players -vs- what will upset the Most.

Their Options:

Nerfs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Buffs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Nothing = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Just like a game, they need to consider the Risk of loosing players -vs- the Reward of gaining players, while simultaneously trying to Keep as many players as possible. The future of the ENTIRE game is riding on their decisions.

While I'm sure some people at Trion are looking at their time with the company as a "educational experience" and others see it as a "stepping stone to something greater", I Hope they have at least a few people on the team that are passionate enough about this game and its future to do everything in their power in order to make it succeed. I see allot of unrealized potential in this game, however, if they don't get their ash's in gear, it won't matter.

IAMVILELENT
08-05-2013, 04:35 PM
No matter what you do, you can't please EVERYONE. That's just a fact. There are too many different personality types, personal preferences, and opinions of what constitute a "Challenge", what is "Boring", and what is "Fun". So, IMHO, I think they should be focusing on what will upset the Least number of players -vs- what will upset the Most.

Their Options:

Nerfs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Buffs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Nothing = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Just like a game, they need to consider the Risk of loosing players -vs- the Reward of gaining players, while simultaneously trying to Keep as many players as possible. The future of the ENTIRE game is riding on their decisions.

While I'm sure some people at Trion are looking at their time with the company as a "educational experience" and others see it as a "stepping stone to something greater", I Hope they have at least a few people on the team that are passionate enough about this game and its future to do everything in their power in order to make it succeed. I see allot of unrealized potential in this game, however, if they don't get their ash's in gear, it won't matter.

Other games, this would be true, but here. I honestly doubt there are more then 10 players in these forums against buffing weapons.

The SAW nerf should be out of the question considering the 56+ page thread majority against it. Why piss off your remaining dedicated players lol?

ten4
08-05-2013, 04:42 PM
Most nerfs have to do with PvP and then it adversely affects PvE. It can go the other way, though but that is rare.

This is what you get when you DON'T separate PvE and PvP rulesets/mechanics.

It's been proven time and time again that having both aspects in one system is a poor choice.

Look at GW2, where PvP and PvE is entirely separate including gear/progression; it works really well and rarely if ever does nerfs to one side or the other effects each other in such drastic ways.

So unless they separate PvP and PvE from each other, they will never make a truly balanced game and there will always be much anger from the player base.

August Barkley
08-05-2013, 04:47 PM
No need to deal with nerf and buff right now. This game has a lot of other problems.

Evolution
08-05-2013, 08:46 PM
Other games, this would be true, but here. I honestly doubt there are more then 10 players in these forums against buffing weapons.

The SAW nerf should be out of the question considering the 56+ page thread majority against it. Why piss off your remaining dedicated players lol?

I Hope that they realize the "SAW Nerf" will upset more people than it pleases. Why do that when an alternate workaround would simply go over better. Stick to solutions that will improve the game AND make the most people happy. Don't just pick one or the other.


(Suggestion for a Alternate Solution)

Add a modifier to enemies (bosses/mini bosses/creature types... ect.) that can make them weak against and/or resistant to an element and/or weapon type. It doesn't make sense for "Fire" Hellbugs to burned to death anyways & Volge should be resistant to "traditional" firearms because of their armor. However, "Votan" weapons? One would think they considered the Volge when they were designed.

IAMVILELENT
08-05-2013, 09:43 PM
I Hope that they realize the "SAW Nerf" will upset more people than it pleases. Why do that when an alternate workaround would simply go over better. Stick to solutions that will improve the game AND make the most people happy. Don't just pick one or the other.


(Suggestion for a Alternate Solution)

Add a modifier to enemies (bosses/mini bosses/creature types... ect.) that can make them weak against and/or resistant to an element and/or weapon type. It doesn't make sense for "Fire" Hellbugs to burned to death anyways & Volge should be resistant to "traditional" firearms because of their armor. However, "Votan" weapons? One would think they considered the Volge when they were designed.

That's too much maffths for these devs I think. I honestly don't think the staff now is more then 10, it couldn't be the way things are going.

TwwiX
08-06-2013, 02:21 AM
Nerfs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Buffs = Anger some, annoy some, please some

Nothing = Anger some, annoy some, please some




The only people whining about buffs are PvP players. They've helped ruin numerous MMO's over the years. This is a tradition among them.

Maitreakow
08-07-2013, 04:47 AM
The only people whining about buffs are PvP players. They've helped ruin numerous MMO's over the years. This is a tradition among them.

I have no doubt that a few trolls would whine about buffs in PvE. Most likely stating that Trion is turning the game into an even easier version than it already is. That being said, there are always a few in every crowd and most of the players who would likely end up whining would indeed be the "PvP crowd".