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Blight Wolf
08-04-2013, 09:29 PM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people, and I see alot of people selling off their personal items and guns. I think with all the crashing, being kicked from servers, bugs, mutiplayer is all messed up, and the 3 or 4 push backs of a mythical dlc that now has announced that the truck of doom is now just another car that carries 4 people has maybe killed this game. I have a hard time believing that Trion can pull it from the grave, even when selling the game brand new for only $10. It's a sad time in Paradise. It's really sad because I do really like the game. It's just a great game, with a bad company that produced it.

SebastianGomez
08-04-2013, 09:35 PM
I agree. And the new arenas in the DLC being solo play only apparently?? This is a MMO. Something wrong there.

Blight Wolf
08-04-2013, 09:41 PM
I agree. Trion has no idea what an MMO is. First the certain solo missions during campaign and episodes missions, now withwhat they announced with the Mythical DLC. I don't think the game will survive Trion. Trion just got greedy.

MassacreN8
08-04-2013, 09:44 PM
My favorite part is how fast a NON LOOT BASED GAME became a buying and trading nightmare.

Blight Wolf
08-04-2013, 09:48 PM
Yeah it's pretty sick. This is a fun game that its own parent killed.

Blight Wolf
08-04-2013, 09:51 PM
Plus I ahve been playing PVP the last week, and it's so jacked up. people being left standing in the road while actually driving around in the truck. All the frickin bunny hopping is by far the most unrealistic part of the game. It will probably be the one thing I don't complete which is reach trusted status with Echelon

Notturno
08-04-2013, 10:08 PM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people,

The way the game world is structured makes it hard to decipher how many people are actually online. It splits people off into "worlds" that have a soft cap on how many people it can hold. If the server decides that there are too many people online, such as during peak hours, it will create another world for people to connect to. It will try to balance the player numbers across the worlds as they teleport to different locations. If you do not teleport anywhere, then you can theoretically remain on the same world for an indefinite period of time.

That being said, you could just be in the less populous worlds which is altering your perception of how active the game is.

felgar
08-04-2013, 10:12 PM
I happen to love the game. The issues will get fixed and the future is the quality of the dlc. Lets hope they are listening

demonwarb
08-04-2013, 10:17 PM
I agree. Trion has no idea what an MMO is.
RIFT is a very good game. Mostly standard MMO fare, but there were several ideas put into it that made it feel fresh and fun. It's hardly fair to say they don't know what an MMO is. That being said, Defiance failed hard. I haven't logged in well over a month.

Fancypants
08-04-2013, 10:21 PM
I agree. And the new arenas in the DLC being solo play only apparently?? This is a MMO. Something wrong there.It's a mmo in name. It's not really an mmo. It's a poorer version of Borderlands so just think of it as you are doing stuff there, and the population won't seem as low.

Btw: Trion should have watched this video from 6:50 on. It shows how to make vehicles with someone driving and someone SHOOTING a turret mounted gun.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6bbr8F5BS0

Fancypants
08-04-2013, 10:26 PM
RIFT is a very good game. Mostly standard MMO fare, but there were several ideas put into it that made it feel fresh and fun. It's hardly fair to say they don't know what an MMO is. That being said, Defiance failed hard. I haven't logged in well over a month.I wouldn't say it's 'very good' or else it wouldn't have gone F2P, especially considering they probably already paid off Rift's development costs already.

When a game that's paid off goes F2P, that's not the mark of a 'very good' game.

MacDeath
08-04-2013, 11:04 PM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people, and I see alot of people selling off their personal items and guns. I think with all the crashing, being kicked from servers, bugs, mutiplayer is all messed up, and the 3 or 4 push backs of a mythical dlc that now has announced that the truck of doom is now just another car that carries 4 people has maybe killed this game. I have a hard time believing that Trion can pull it from the grave, even when selling the game brand new for only $10. It's a sad time in Paradise. It's really sad because I do really like the game. It's just a great game, with a bad company that produced it.
I'm sure you have noticed this decline but, it could be an aspect of the server you play on. You're probably on NA-Xbox, right? This might be quite different from the other platforms and even from EU-Xbox. IMO, this thread belongs in the XBox forum.

stpaulsims
08-04-2013, 11:07 PM
No look at the clans
Where have they gone?
To different games

Sanguinesun
08-04-2013, 11:47 PM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people, and I see alot of people selling off their personal items and guns. I think with all the crashing, being kicked from servers, bugs, mutiplayer is all messed up, and the 3 or 4 push backs of a mythical dlc that now has announced that the truck of doom is now just another car that carries 4 people has maybe killed this game. I have a hard time believing that Trion can pull it from the grave, even when selling the game brand new for only $10. It's a sad time in Paradise. It's really sad because I do really like the game. It's just a great game, with a bad company that produced it.


Watch last friday's stream on defiance. Their system on server shards contributes a lot why you frequently dont see alot of people.

There is no accurate metric available to gamers to know exactly the numbers of players on. That is 100% not transparent to anyone except Trion. Even steam or other venues that track are only partial and thus anecdotal.

That said, I do believe there is a decline and can only offer a recipe of multiple sources of anecdotal evidence in that regard.

SNSDxTiffanism
08-04-2013, 11:55 PM
And the sad truth of them telling us now the Raptor does not have a turret we can use. Whats the point of having the word turret there where we can't use it? Totally misleading us -_- totally disappointed now. i didn't quit defiance but me and my brother hasn't log in for few weeks already. waiting for new fun contents which i doubt will happen.

Pipes
08-05-2013, 12:48 AM
Ive not noticed it too much really, Arkfalls still seem to get enough people at them no matter what time of day it is to be able to crash your system or boot you out or lag like hell. Iron demon still seems to be a clusterfk of people when I go to it. Nuclear Rubber is still everywhere you move your camera :p

Obviously there is going to be a decline over time , though im sure if the magical dlc that may or may not ever come out comes out, you will see a sudden spike of returning players and the servers will pack out again for a few weeks at least.

While I dont see the game ever becoming jam packed even if the later dlcs are good, I dont think its going to die anytime soon. All you hear day in day out is doom and gloom, yet we are all still here.

hardy83
08-05-2013, 02:07 AM
I wouldn't say it's 'very good' or else it wouldn't have gone F2P, especially considering they probably already paid off Rift's development costs already.

When a game that's paid off goes F2P, that's not the mark of a 'very good' game.

So a game going F2P automatically makes it not "very good"
Whelp, you're opinion is officially moot.

Mercy Killing
08-05-2013, 03:03 AM
I was playing Sunday afternoon, pacific time PC/NA and queued twice for Shadow Wars in less than ten minutes. Queue for Freight Yard kept popping quickly, too. After that, arkfalls that I did seemed to be quite crowded.

Not sure why you're not seeing anyone, but I see people all the time.

Blondin
08-05-2013, 04:32 AM
Btw: Trion should have watched this video from 6:50 on. It shows how to make vehicles with someone driving and someone SHOOTING a turret mounted gun.

You mean like in Freight Yard and Explosion 101 coop missions?

Ok, they lied about weapon on truck of doom, no need for us to lie too...

Etaew
08-05-2013, 04:38 AM
A good tip I learned that if the world feels empty, fast travel somewhere. That is when the calculation is done whether to remove you from a closing virtual server or onto a new opening virtual server.

That said, I always use my visitor count to get me some average figures of the health of the game :(

Yewa
08-05-2013, 05:04 AM
I think they should at least give us a slash command like "/pop" to see the overall population on all worlds.

Dracian
08-05-2013, 05:11 AM
Personnaly, and despite the Loot Bonus, I didn't play much that week-end. Simply because it was more rewarding to chase Redheads in The Witcher than to chase Arkfalls in Defiance.

MaxSterling
08-05-2013, 05:26 AM
As I stated in your previously closed thread... summer is ending. College is starting up at the end of this month for many of the remaining players. It's also a XP boost weekend. I pretty much farmed one location the entire weekend. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Some of the shady players are dumping a lot of their stolen goods, most likely to get rid of the evidence. Notice none of them are giving up their ARs or SAWs. They're still gonna be around.

alred
08-05-2013, 07:33 AM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people, and I see alot of people selling off their personal items and guns. I think with all the crashing, being kicked from servers, bugs, mutiplayer is all messed up, and the 3 or 4 push backs of a mythical dlc that now has announced that the truck of doom is now just another car that carries 4 people has maybe killed this game. I have a hard time believing that Trion can pull it from the grave, even when selling the game brand new for only $10. It's a sad time in Paradise. It's really sad because I do really like the game. It's just a great game, with a bad company that produced it.


I was at my local Target today. I noticed they had removed all the Defiance Bit cards from their shelves. And they no longer stock the Defiance game.
A mistake by Trion, IMO. Because not everyone likes using credit cards or paypal online.
Heck, you can't even find Rift game time cards in the stores anymore. I know Rift is free to play, but there are benefits to paying for game time.
I myself seldom play Defiance any more. I log in about 3 to 4 days a week now, before it used to be 7 days a week, and at least 3 hours at a time.

They need to hurry up with the DLC, may release it in small updates vs all at once. Because you know what will happen when the DLC hits, just like any patch day. The game will be unplayable for a day at a time. All because they will have "bugs" and such to weed out that didn't get picked up on their small user based test server.

Alexri
08-05-2013, 08:06 AM
If Trion had made a game that doesnt hurt players who play together, I would be more broken up over this

Maitreakow
08-05-2013, 08:21 AM
Oh look, this post again...

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 08:26 AM
So a game going F2P automatically makes it not "very good"
Whelp, you're opinion is officially moot.That's not what was said, but what you deduced.
If the game was 'very good', then it wouldn't have gone to F2P.

You are using the same argument people make about their dead mmos.

"No, the game was VERY good, great in fact. It's just that the company killed it." Really, lol?

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 08:29 AM
You mean like in Freight Yard and Explosion 101 coop missions?

Ok, they lied about weapon on truck of doom, no need for us to lie too...Not sure what this means. People are talking about what a company said was coming. If you want to lie about something go ahead. But don't include me into that 'we'. I haven't lied about anything here.. just stated facts.

Borderlands has a vehicle with a turret. A WORKING turret. Since 2009.

This game knew that, wanted to copy it and found out they couldn't, and now some people are trying to cover for that. It's pretty silly.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 08:37 AM
I was at my local Target today. I noticed they had removed all the Defiance Bit cards from their shelves. And they no longer stock the Defiance game.
A mistake by Trion, IMO. Because not everyone likes using credit cards or paypal online.
Heck, you can't even find Rift game time cards in the stores anymore. I know Rift is free to play, but there are benefits to paying for game time.
What makes you think Trion just refused to sell them in Target anymore?

It could be a matter of Trion trying to sell them to Target, Walmart, etc and those companies saying "Thanks, but no thanks. They don't move off of the shelves fast enough and the profit margin for us it too little."

A company will usually only sell supportive things like time/bit cards to games they continue to sell, or that sell well. If the game wasn't moving (which it wasn't), why would they want to order several hundred thousand more cards to sell for games that they themselves no longer stock or when they do stock it, are discounted so bad that people run?

August Barkley
08-05-2013, 08:39 AM
Personally, I see new players every day [EU server]. Maybe it's the second or third characters of some players, I do not know.

Arsenic_Touch
08-05-2013, 09:09 AM
That's not what was said, but what you deduced.
If the game was 'very good', then it wouldn't have gone to F2P.

You are using the same argument people make about their dead mmos.

"No, the game was VERY good, great in fact. It's just that the company killed it." Really, lol?

Actually, free to play does not mean "not very good" not even remotely. Now if Rift went free to play within the first 6 months, then you'd have an argument. But as it stands, you're flailing your arms and missing.

Jay Common
08-05-2013, 09:15 AM
Not sure what this means. People are talking about what a company said was coming. If you want to lie about something go ahead. But don't include me into that 'we'. I haven't lied about anything here.. just stated facts.

Borderlands has a vehicle with a turret. A WORKING turret. Since 2009.

This game knew that, wanted to copy it and found out they couldn't, and now some people are trying to cover for that. It's pretty silly.

I totally agree with your point of view. It was wrong for Trion to ever promise us this '4 player truck of doom' knowing almost full well their servers would not be able to handle multiple trucks at once. But this comparison of Defiance->Borderlands is almost just as silly. Of course Borderlands has had a working turret since 2009. There is only ever 4 people in an online world at once. You could have used Battlefield games as a better comparison, since there are multiple tanks and different vehicles with working turrets on them, but that still doesn't reach the scope of how many there would be in a given world at a given time on Defiance.

I am not defending Trion at all. They never should have stated the details of this truck. Especially with amount of bug fixes they had to incorporate post-release. A cerberus has a working turret on it, so it's not that they can't do it. If I had to hedge my bets towards a guess, I would certainly pick server strain over incompetence. If 50 raptors with passengers firing turrets at the same arkfall ever happened, the game would critical error and crash faster than you can blink. Maybe if the game was sub-based and we paid for stronger servers, but no one in their right mind would pay for Defiance monthly now.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 09:16 AM
Actually, free to play does not mean "not very good" not even remotely. Now if Rift went free to play within the first 6 months, then you'd have an argument. But as it stands, you're flailing your arms and missing.Two years isn't some kind of benchmark. Sorry.

When you have games like FFXI, EvE, WoW, and others still not F2P.

Maybe we can say Rift is 'good', but that only puts it in the same category as Aion, Tera, DCUO, Age of Conan, EQ2 or any of the other 'good' games that had to convert for the same reason; loss of players.

"Very Good" mmos don't go F2P.

Indra Echo
08-05-2013, 09:17 AM
The way the game world is structured makes it hard to decipher how many people are actually online. It splits people off into "worlds" that have a soft cap on how many people it can hold. If the server decides that there are too many people online, such as during peak hours, it will create another world for people to connect to. It will try to balance the player numbers across the worlds as they teleport to different locations. If you do not teleport anywhere, then you can theoretically remain on the same world for an indefinite period of time.

That being said, you could just be in the less populous worlds which is altering your perception of how active the game is.

Yeah this is a misunderstood thing. One person could in fact try logging on and get the queue screen-I got that several times this weekend and may find the phase to be very busy. My experience was even while phase hopping I still did find that it was quite busy. Is that indicative of all phases? No way.

But this is also what happens with lag. Busier phases will have more of it. And everything that goes on within a certain area of the phase or in the phase itself will cause more lag. People using the Titans at arkfalls cause loads of it, cars do too at all times. BMGs and detonators or grenades. And just trying to meet up with specific people in a phase rather than randoms will cause it. And the larger the group of people all trying to get together to do any event will keep certain events from spawning because of the lag already created. This happens when large clan groups try to do arkfalls together or do Volge hunts-the larger the group the fewer events that spawn.

Just saying that people don't fully understand what's going on. If you enter a really laggy game, you might try logging out and going back in to get into a different phase that is less populous.

Thomas1975
08-05-2013, 09:18 AM
Funny that I see a lot of people posting that the game is dead. From what i have seen this game is very much alive. Defiance has always been a F2P game from its official launch in April. Remember that there are many phases in the game and players are put into different phases to keep the Lag down. Every time I am on I see tons of players.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 09:19 AM
I totally agree with your point of view. It was wrong for Trion to ever promise us this '4 player truck of doom' knowing almost full well their servers would not be able to handle multiple trucks at once. But this comparison of Defiance->Borderlands is almost just as silly. Of course Borderlands has had a working turret since 2009. There is only ever 4 people in an online world at once. You could have used Battlefield games as a better comparison, since there are multiple tanks and different vehicles with working turrets on them, but that still doesn't reach the scope of how many there would be in a given world at a given time on Defiance.

I am not defending Trion at all. They never should have stated the details of this truck. Especially with amount of bug fixes they had to incorporate post-release. A cerberus has a working turret on it, so it's not that they can't do it. If I had to hedge my bets towards a guess, I would certainly pick server strain over incompetence. If 50 raptors with passengers firing turrets at the same arkfall ever happened, the game would critical error and crash faster than you can blink. Maybe if the game was sub-based and we paid for stronger servers, but no one in their right mind would pay for Defiance monthly now.I would say the comparison between Defiance and Borderlands is silly only if that were a one-way street.

Meaning, if the fanboys would stop saying "Well, for the $60 I paid I got more out of this than I get out of Borderlands" or "You are looking at Defiance all wrong, it's not really a 'mmo'; it's a shooter like Borderlands" or "Borderlands this/Borderlands that".

It appears to be the same argument Rift fans were making. "Rift is better than WoW. Rift is blah blah than WoW. WoW does this/that/Sparkle Pony this that..haha it's dead." and yet, after all of that their game went F2P while WoW did not.

And then when you point that out, they say "Well of course it's silly to compare it vs WoW... WoW is X years old!" even though Rift was the one starting the hype and comparisions, not WoW. This is a Trion pattern.

Cannot have it both ways. Especially when the company ITSELF (not the players) were the ones talking up the Truck of Doom. Not sure why they should get a free pass for creating the hype, then slinking back into a quiet corner with only fans to defend them.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 09:28 AM
Funny that I see a lot of people posting that the game is dead. From what i have seen this game is very much alive. Defiance has always been a F2P game from its official launch in April. Remember that there are many phases in the game and players are put into different phases to keep the Lag down. Every time I am on I see tons of players.It's always about 'perception'.

I know it was that way with Warhammer Online. People saying "I don't see many people logging in anymore, what's going on?" to which the reply was always "Meh. Shut up troll. I see people ALL the time on my servers, in fact.. blah blah blah". It goes on that way back/forth until some time passes and either one person or the other is proved right.

In the case of Warhammer, they went from near 100 servers down to now.. three. And the funny thing? The people on those three servers are still saying "Shut up troll.. the game is not dying. I see people all the time on my server doing stuff."

When this game hits F2P, then you'll know what people are saying now is correct, at which point the fanners will then say "So what? I don't care, I still have fun" which isn't the point people now are making.

I still don't know why you and others keep saying this is F2P. It's not.

If this was F2P since April, you wouldn't have anyone saying 'Why are the servers light?' You'd have people saying "Why did they turn this into F2P? Look at all these trolls and griefers! Do something!"

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 09:28 AM
Recently, I've noticed a decline in the number of people playing the game. Some of the hangouts like Muir and Iron Demon don't have as many people, and I see alot of people selling off their personal items and guns. I think with all the crashing, being kicked from servers, bugs, mutiplayer is all messed up, and the 3 or 4 push backs of a mythical dlc that now has announced that the truck of doom is now just another car that carries 4 people has maybe killed this game. I have a hard time believing that Trion can pull it from the grave, even when selling the game brand new for only $10. It's a sad time in Paradise. It's really sad because I do really like the game. It's just a great game, with a bad company that produced it.

I have noticed the opposite, actually. I have seen more and more people while in game, even at off peak hours for my local time. My guild is constantly growing larger and most of the newest recruits are people who have only just started playing the game in the last few weeks.

Agreed on the new vehicle, however. Such a disappointment that a Cerebus in all aspects is not considered a Cerebus for the open world. There is no reason that the new vehicle should not qualify as a Cerebus for the pursuit.


I agree. And the new arenas in the DLC being solo play only apparently?? This is a MMO. Something wrong there.

Actually, Trion always said they were making a shooter first and an MMO second. However, I would agree the two solo missions should allow for a co-op group for completion.


Plus I ahve been playing PVP the last week, and it's so jacked up. people being left standing in the road while actually driving around in the truck. All the frickin bunny hopping is by far the most unrealistic part of the game. It will probably be the one thing I don't complete which is reach trusted status with Echelon

The bunny hopping is annoying, but when I encounter one of them (as I often do) I just bunny hop myself and shoot them in the face. I only wish they could see me tea-bagging their corpse before respawning. I'm not even that good at shooters, so these people must really be bad.

Indra Echo
08-05-2013, 09:29 AM
Two years isn't some kind of benchmark. Sorry.

When you have games like FFXI, EvE, WoW, and others still not F2P.

Maybe we can say Rift is 'good', but that only puts it in the same category as Aion, Tera, DCUO, Age of Conan, EQ2 or any of the other 'good' games that had to convert for the same reason; loss of players.

"Very Good" mmos don't go F2P.

You cannot compare the strategies of older games with those released recently. Today the expectation is quickly becoming rampant that games should be F2P at least in part and after the initial outlay of cash for buying the base game, this one essentially will be. Other games have followed this same model in that they may have charged a subscription but went F2P not always because they weren't good but because it is now expected. But they too do have some for pay parts to them, just as this has for pay DLC with aspects that are F2P.

If today WoW went F2P, veteran players might well have a fit. They have a formula, an old one, that works for them and people rightly or wrongly might get all up in arms to think new players suddenly don't have to pay for stuff they've been paying for over the years. You may as well state the converse and consider that any game must be great if it goes from F2P to a subscription model, but it's obvious what the reaction would be over that.

WoW wasn't always great. It has a formula that works and is still profitable, dust and all. It also has a loyal fanbase built on years of play. If that were not so, any of that, it's likely the thing would change. Blizzard has been known to try new things and got reamed over things done with Diablo3. Like it or not, the idea that has been promoted in a huge way all across gaming and not just for MMOs but for any game is to offer sort of free stuff that rely on the nickel and dimes (er $10) microtransactions to cover the cost.

F2P doesn't mean "bad game", it means devs followed what other devs are doing and what players are now expecting. Players view F2P as a way to play for free and even decide if they like a game, sort of a big demo. And whether I agree with it or not (I prefer having finite costs, not subscriptions, not microtransactions, but one time fees), it is the trend.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 09:33 AM
F2P doesn't mean "bad game", it means devs followed what other devs are doing and what players are now expecting.I think you and Arsenic read what you want to read.

I said Rift is not a 'very good game' because very good games do not go F2P. If it was so 'very good' it wouldn't have resorted to that because, you know... it would still have plenty of people to actually.. pay for it.

It's actually a little worse when you consider Rift is paid for (after two years, development costs are no longer an issue), so a game that only had to really pay for upkeep and expansions still didn't have enough players to do that, even though it was 'very good'.

Maitreakow
08-05-2013, 09:34 AM
I am not defending Trion at all. They never should have stated the details of this truck. Especially with amount of bug fixes they had to incorporate post-release. A cerberus has a working turret on it, so it's not that they can't do it. If I had to hedge my bets towards a guess, I would certainly pick server strain over incompetence. If 50 raptors with passengers firing turrets at the same arkfall ever happened, the game would critical error and crash faster than you can blink. Maybe if the game was sub-based and we paid for stronger servers, but no one in their right mind would pay for Defiance monthly now.

Currently the turret does not, in fact work. Gunners often lag behind the truck, enabling other players to kill them. Since they are seen as standing still in the middle of the road. THIS is the issue they are trying to work out before they give a working/shooting turret to the Raptor.


Funny that I see a lot of people posting that the game is dead. From what i have seen this game is very much alive. Defiance has always been a F2P game from its official launch in April. Remember that there are many phases in the game and players are put into different phases to keep the Lag down. Every time I am on I see tons of players.

There is a misunderstanding of F2P between console and PC players for the most part. On these forums when you see "F2P" they mean the game is free to download as well as not having a subscription fee...

Jay Common
08-05-2013, 09:43 AM
Currently the turret does not, in fact work. Gunners often lag behind the truck, enabling other players to kill them. Since they are seen as standing still in the middle of the road. THIS is the issue they are trying to work out before they give a working/shooting turret to the Raptor.

With this example, you could argue that absolutely nothing in Defiance works than. This is a bug, this is not a turret being broken. You can get into the turret, and shoot it to kill enemies. This is the primary function of the turret. Therefore, it works, however it has some problems. And really, what difference does that bug make? You will (and should) still be able to get shot off the back of the turret. The bug may make it a little easier, but if it gets fixed, people will still get shot off of a turret.

Maitreakow
08-05-2013, 09:48 AM
With this example, you could argue that absolutely nothing in Defiance works than. This is a bug, this is not a turret being broken. You can get into the turret, and shoot it to kill enemies. This is the primary function of the turret. Therefore, it works, however it has some problems. And really, what difference does that bug make? You will (and should) still be able to get shot off the back of the turret. The bug may make it a little easier, but if it gets fixed, people will still get shot off of a turret.

I would say there is a major difference with being shot off of the back of a moving vehicle while you are firing back at whatever is shooting at you, and getting killed by someone/something you never see because your body is standing still in the middle of the road 1/2 of a map away. From your point of view you just die suddenly for no reason.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 09:48 AM
What makes you think Trion just refused to sell them in Target anymore?

It could be a matter of Trion trying to sell them to Target, Walmart, etc and those companies saying "Thanks, but no thanks. They don't move off of the shelves fast enough and the profit margin for us it too little."

A company will usually only sell supportive things like time/bit cards to games they continue to sell, or that sell well. If the game wasn't moving (which it wasn't), why would they want to order several hundred thousand more cards to sell for games that they themselves no longer stock or when they do stock it, are discounted so bad that people run?

This anecdote can be a little misleading. I have worked at Target for nearly a decade, and even though the company is set up to have a similar inventory from store to store, that is only in a general sense. Many factors influence the inventory in a particular store, and in my region there are several stores that still carry not only Defiance time cards, but SWTOR time cards as well. Up until a year or so ago, some of the stores in my region still carried the Guild Wars Platinum packaged version of the game whereas the main store I work at stopped carrying it about a year prior to that.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 09:53 AM
Two years isn't some kind of benchmark. Sorry.

When you have games like FFXI, EvE, WoW, and others still not F2P.

Maybe we can say Rift is 'good', but that only puts it in the same category as Aion, Tera, DCUO, Age of Conan, EQ2 or any of the other 'good' games that had to convert for the same reason; loss of players.

"Very Good" mmos don't go F2P.

Logical fallacy. "Good" is a matter of personal preference. There are many factors in determining whether an MMO should go F2P, or be F2P from the outset, not the least of which is CCP (which is a lot less for the "classic" games when compared to a "modern" MMO) and the fact that a cash shop that usually accompanies F2P can make a crapton of money with a smaller overall population - sometimes more than a subscription based game.

Gomly
08-05-2013, 09:55 AM
Defiance has always been a F2P game from its official launch in April.

Nope.

Defiance is B2P (buy to play) ..... F2P games are completely free, no initial purchase required.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 09:55 AM
This anecdote can be a little misleading. I have worked at Target for nearly a decade, and even though the company is set up to have a similar inventory from store to store, that is only in a general sense. Many factors influence the inventory in a particular store, and in my region there are several stores that still carry not only Defiance time cards, but SWTOR time cards as well. Up until a year or so ago, some of the stores in my region still carried the Guild Wars Platinum packaged version of the game whereas the main store I work at stopped carrying it about a year prior to that.Why wouldn't they sell SWTOR cards? That game still has almost 500k paying subs, lol? Not counting the near 2 million F2Pers.

I understand your point, but I'm talking stores in general.. not just Target.

Usually unless they still sell the game or are told that a game is still doing okay despite a drop in price, they will carry cards. It usually makes little business sense to reorder things that most people aren't likely to buy, unless you can get them dirt cheap and resell them at a good price.

Otherwise, they usually (other stores) do not order any more items related to products that dive in price especially so drastically.

I mean hell man, plenty of stores still sell Age of Conan cards, Warhammer online time cards, etc. Not because the games are still popular but because they haven't totally depleted their stock yet.

Jay Common
08-05-2013, 10:00 AM
I would say there is a major difference with being shot off of the back of a moving vehicle while you are firing back at whatever is shooting at you, and getting killed by someone/something you never see because your body is standing still in the middle of the road 1/2 of a map away. From your point of view you just die suddenly for no reason.


So than, that is my bad for not fully understanding what you meant. I haven't played PvP since I got trusted with Echelon (months ago) so I didn't know this was happening to this extent. When I was playing, the characters would lag behind the cerberus (as if they appeared to be tethered by it), but still moved with the truck at the same pace and speed. I had no idea people's toons were just appearing as not moving on a map when they were actually in the turret. Sounds like another bug patch that fixed something we didn't want fixed, screwed up something else that people actually use.

/facepalm

We will probably see the cerberus nerfed totally out of PvP. This never happens in Explosions 101.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:00 AM
Logical fallacy. "Good" is a matter of personal preference. There are many factors in determining whether an MMO should go F2P, or be F2P from the outset, not the least of which is CCP (which is a lot less for the "classic" games when compared to a "modern" MMO) and the fact that a cash shop that usually accompanies F2P can make a crapton of money with a smaller overall population - sometimes more than a subscription based game.Of course 'good' is a matter of preference, I said as much.

He thinks the game is 'very good', so do plenty of people playing Rift right now. I said perhaps it was 'good'. Preference as mentioned.

That still has no bearing on the fact that hundreds of thousands of other players tried and left, despite it being a 'very good game'. But there does come a point when reality trumps 'personal preference'.

There are people still to this day that thought CoH or Tabula Rasa were 'very good games', but it doesn't mean anything unless it's pulling enough money in to keep itself alive or staving off a F2P conversion.

Common sense starts to win over when 'very good things' end up being .. not so popular and have to resort to drastic measures to save themselves.

Blondin
08-05-2013, 10:00 AM
I totally agree with your point of view. It was wrong for Trion to ever promise us this '4 player truck of doom' knowing almost full well their servers would not be able to handle multiple trucks at once. But this comparison of Defiance->Borderlands is almost just as silly. Of course Borderlands has had a working turret since 2009. There is only ever 4 people in an online world at once. You could have used Battlefield games as a better comparison, since there are multiple tanks and different vehicles with working turrets on them, but that still doesn't reach the scope of how many there would be in a given world at a given time on Defiance.

I am not defending Trion at all. They never should have stated the details of this truck. Especially with amount of bug fixes they had to incorporate post-release. A cerberus has a working turret on it, so it's not that they can't do it. If I had to hedge my bets towards a guess, I would certainly pick server strain over incompetence. If 50 raptors with passengers firing turrets at the same arkfall ever happened, the game would critical error and crash faster than you can blink. Maybe if the game was sub-based and we paid for stronger servers, but no one in their right mind would pay for Defiance monthly now.
Exaclyt my point, and I'm not defending Trion, but they have a working turret, there is absolutly no issue with turret in explosion 101 coop map, just like in Borderland, that's why I said no need to lie... btw, Trion devs are incompetent enough that we don't need to exaggerate and say that Borderland has better performance.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:03 AM
Exaclyt my point, and I'm not defending Trion, but they have a working turret, there is absolutly no issue with turret in explosion 101 coop map, just like in Borderland, that's why I said no need to lie... btw, Trion devs are incompetent enough that we don't need to exaggerate and say that Borderland has better performance.But there is no "Truck of Doom" as promised/described. Saying so is not a lie. Surely even you see that?

It's called a 'fact'.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 10:08 AM
Why wouldn't they sell SWTOR cards? That game still has almost 500k paying subs, lol? Not counting the near 2 million F2Pers.

I understand your point, but I'm talking stores in general.. not just Target.

Usually unless they still sell the game or are told that a game is still doing okay despite a drop in price, they will carry cards. It usually makes little business sense to reorder things that most people aren't likely to buy, unless you can get them dirt cheap and resell them at a good price.

Otherwise, they usually (other stores) do not order any more items related to products that dive in price especially so drastically.

I mean hell man, plenty of stores still sell Age of Conan cards, Warhammer online time cards, etc. Not because the games are still popular but because they haven't totally depleted their stock yet.

But even in a general sense, retailers have options depending on the contracts they have with vendors. At Target, depending on the product, we have several options to "move" old inventory, including sending unsold stock back to the original vendor. Trust me, I have worked in retail long enough to know that if a product isn't selling, it's wasting valuable shelf space that can be used by a product that does sell. It's all about the bottom line. If we still have Defiance game cards sitting on our shelves, it's not because we have an unsellable product.

Yewa
08-05-2013, 10:11 AM
playing devil's advocate here, it's a bit unfair to compare borderlands' vehicles with turrets with the ones we have in defiance. Borderlands' networking solution is for small scale 4 players groups, and their world is not as open as defiance. Theres a good deal of area transitions there with loading screens.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:14 AM
But even in a general sense, retailers have options depending on the contracts they have with vendors. At target, depending on the product, we have several options to "move" old inventory, including sending unsold stock back to the original vendor. Trust me, I have worked in retail long enough to know that if a product isn't selling, it's wasting valuable shelf space that can be used by a product that does sell. It's all about the bottom line. If we still have Defiance game cards sitting on our shelves, it's not because we have an unsellable product.True, but as you said.. that's Target.. and in general, YOUR STORE as you said. Other stores don't always operate that way.

I'm not professing to know the inner working of Target, not by any stretch. The post was made that it was a mistake for Trion to stop selling cards in Target. I suggested Trion may not be the ones making that decision, or even that the price they are offering is enough of a good deal for a company to jump on.

I merely said for many stores (which is true even though you didn't acknowledge it) they may not see the value in re-ordering merch for products that don't seem to have a future.

To anyone with again, common sense, it's not a hard question to answer:

"Do we continue to order stock for a product that has dropped approximately 84% in value in four months, or do we simply sell out and support products that still seem to be profitable (ala SWTOR)".

Apparently you are saying Target doesn't look at it that way which is fine because I don't know your capacity there.. you may be the main buyer and do this a lot. But most major stores having managers consistently do this will end up losing a lot of money and that manager will be 'I used to work at Walmart and I can tell you..' before long, after enough of this bad planning.

Blondin
08-05-2013, 10:15 AM
But there is no "Truck of Doom" as promised/described. Saying so is not a lie. Surely even you see that?

It's called a 'fact'.
Yope, it's exactly what I said in several threads, still there is a turret working in Defiance just like in Borderland, that's a fact too, say otherwise is lying.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:18 AM
Yope, it's exactly what I said in several threads, still there is a turret working in Defiance just like in Borderland, that's a fact too, say otherwise is lying.I didn't say there was no 'working turret' in Defiance. I said the Truck of Doom didn't work and wasn't here as promised. Then you said there's no reason for 'us' to lie.

Someone else made the argument the turret already here doesn't work, but that was LONG after you and your 'lie' comment regarding the truck. Please don't muddy the waters.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:20 AM
playing devil's advocate here, it's a bit unfair to compare borderlands' vehicles with turrets with the ones we have in defiance. Borderlands' networking solution is for small scale 4 players groups, and their world is not as open as defiance. Theres a good deal of area transitions there with loading screens.I'll say it again... when people consistently want to compare this game with Borderlands when they see fit:

"I get more value out of this than Borderlands"

"Stop saying this is a mmo; it's a shooter like Borderlands",

then it's perfectly fair to compare. Cannot only use the example when it suits your (someone's) argument, and then discard it when it doesn't match up good.

August Barkley
08-05-2013, 10:20 AM
"Truck of Doom" - it's just a name! Not a single word in this title is not to say that it is a truck with a gun. There is chocolate "Mars", but it's not made ​​from the planet Mars or the Roman god of war!

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:23 AM
"Truck of Doom" - it's just a name! Not a single word in this title is not to say that it is a truck with a gun. There is chocolate "Mars", but it's not made ​​from the planet Mars or the Roman god of war!Oy vey. I'll leave this one to hang there.

Elric1
08-05-2013, 10:25 AM
I agree. Trion has no idea what an MMO is. First the certain solo missions during campaign and episodes missions, now withwhat they announced with the Mythical DLC. I don't think the game will survive Trion. Trion just got greedy.

Already stated by them this is NOT an MMO. I think honestly they tried to make an MMO and screwed everything up trying. Trion just can't do anything right. How do they stay in business?

Blondin
08-05-2013, 10:26 AM
I didn't say there was no 'working turret' in Defiance. I said the Truck of Doom didn't work and wasn't here as promised. Then you said there's no reason for 'us' to lie.

---->


Btw: Trion should have watched this video from 6:50 on. It shows how to make vehicles with someone driving and someone SHOOTING a turret mounted gun.
In other words : Trion need to learn how to make a turret working...

You don't speak of the truck of doom in this sentence I quoted in the first place, reread yourself before claiming someone is trying to muddy the waters.

DarknessEyes PT
08-05-2013, 10:27 AM
I agree that dlc is not worth with solo arenas and with a vehicle without turret, I'm not buying it.

The current cerebrus problem (passangers standing in middle of road) is so easy to solve...

1) When someone enter a vehicle hes body should become invisible and immune to dmg.
2) When the vehicle explode/passenger exists the body return to original state.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 10:28 AM
Of course 'good' is a matter of preference, I said as much.

He thinks the game is 'very good', so do plenty of people playing Rift right now. I said perhaps it was 'good'. Preference as mentioned.

That still has no bearing on the fact that hundreds of thousands of other players tried and left, despite it being a 'very good game'. But there does come a point when reality trumps 'personal preference'.

There are people still to this day that thought CoH or Tabula Rasa were 'very good games', but it doesn't mean anything unless it's pulling enough money in to keep itself alive or staving off a F2P conversion.

Common sense starts to win over when 'very good things' end up being .. not so popular and have to resort to drastic measures to save themselves.

But again, there are other factors that determine the need for F2P. Your posts imply that the games you mention are somehow more superior or successful because they have not needed to go to F2P in order to maintain profitability (even though Blizzard has been and continues to show signs that WoW may one day go that route). The case for such an argument is not as simple as that. Again, there are many factors involved in why those older games can maintain a subscription (even with and especially because of a lower playerbase (popularity) than modern day MMOs).

Ultimately, most gamers will not play a bad game. Whether that game is sub based or F2P, if it sucks, it will go away. While the move to F2P for most of the recent MMOs of the last few years may seem like a desperate measure, all it is is a reflection on the state of the gaming community in today's society. With the number of choices for our entertainment dollar out there, it just makes good business sense to appeal to the widest possible audience your game could have. I for one applaud the move because it means I can play more "Very good" games that I ever was in the past. The numbers thus far bear that out for several of those games.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:35 AM
But again, there are other factors that determine the need for F2P. Your posts imply that the games you mention are somehow more superior or successful because they have not needed to go to F2P in order to maintain profitability (even though Blizzard has been and continues to show signs that WoW may one day go that route).I think that's where again, people read what they want to read. Try not to focus on 'what's implied' and more on 'what's typed', which is what ends up getting conversations twisted. If you ask me 'is this what you mean' and I say 'Yes', then you know... not what you think you know.

Back to the point, more 'superior' to games that aren't F2P? No. Many F2P games are decent.

More 'successful' to games that aren't F2P? For the majority, Hell no, lol.

That's the point. If they were more successful, then they wouldn't be F2P. It's clear that money is the overriding factor in running games to a company, so if a game isn't pulling it's weight in a reasonable enough way, it's either going to go F2P or get shutdown like City of Heroes.

The game was making money, had subs and could have been called 'very good' by it's players. But since the game wasn't pulling ENOUGH people in to the company's satisfaction, it got shut down.

Sure Blizzard will go F2P one day.. or maybe not. We don't know so why speculate on something not related?

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 10:39 AM
I'm not professing to know the inner working of Target, not by any stretch. The post was made that it was a mistake for Trion to stop selling cards in Target. I suggested Trion may not be the ones making that decision, or even that the price they are offering is enough of a good deal for a company to jump on.

I merely said for many stores (which is true even though you didn't acknowledge it) they may not see the value in re-ordering merch for products that don't seem to have a future.

Apparently you are saying Target doesn't look at it that way which is fine because I don't know your capacity there.. you may be the main buyer and do this a lot. But most major stores having managers consistently do this will end up losing a lot of money and that manager will be 'I used to work at Walmart and I can tell you..' before long, after enough of this bad planning.

Which is an assumption you are making and I am if not attempting to correct, at least offer an informed explanation on that point as thus far, these comments have been made in an attempt to prove the OP's point that Defiance is somehow "dead" or "not profitable". True, not all stores will work as we do, but in my 30 odd years of experience in and out of the industry in many aspects from the Mom and Pop shops to the big box retailers, whether a particular item is continued to be carried in a store location does not necessarily reflect the profitability of said object. The "future" of said object does not directly correlate to whether it is stocked on the shelves or not. In the case of SWTOR time cards, my main store and several others in the region stopped stocking them months ago, while the remaining stores continue to stock them. So in the end, the anecdotal evidence of the OP on this particular topic is really pretty meaningless in that aspect, which is what I was trying to point out.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 10:47 AM
Which is an assumption you are making and I am if not attempting to correct, at least offer an informed explanation on that point as thus far, these comments have been made in an attempt to prove the OP's point that Defiance is somehow "dead" or "not profitable". Dead? No. Dying? Without a doubt. The price drops alone confirms that.

If you deny that, I see no reason to continue discussion because there hasn't been any SUCCESSFUL mmo that has had an almost 90% price drop in FOUR MONTHS.. ever. You could prove me wrong by showing a ton of very good and successful mmos that have done this, but we both know that list doesn't exist.

You are the Target 'expert'. I am not speaking for what your store (that you worked at) did/does. But that certainly doesn't mean what ALL Target stores do and more importantly, what all other stores do that aren't.. Target.

Back to the point, Trion probably didn't make a decision to stop selling cards to stores.. who would do that? It's probably more that they cannot offer a good enough deal for profit to those stores and those stores are saying "Thanks but no thanks" looking at the totality of Defiance.

Unless Target and other major stores have managers working in them that have absolutely no idea what Defiance is doing as a whole price wise and how the game is going, they'd be buying up tons of cards.

But I think it's more they do have people who know what's going on and deciding to not restock those cards instead but that's opinion, not really fact.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 11:28 AM
Dead? No. Dying? Without a doubt. The price drops alone confirms that.

If you deny that, I see no reason to continue discussion because there hasn't been any SUCCESSFUL mmo that has had an almost 90% price drop in FOUR MONTHS.. ever. You could prove me wrong by showing a ton of very good and successful mmos that have done this, but we both know that list doesn't exist.

I am sure someone could come up with a list. But in the end, I guess it all comes down to how you define successful. Taking the latest big name faildog - SWTOR, I consider that a successful game. After all, they are in the top 3 of MMOs for number of subscriptions, the leader of which is an anomaly that even the creators said cannot be repeated, and the other is a unique sci-fi sandbox game with a subscription.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider 4 months a benchmark on pricing. As I am trying to recall, every single game I have bought over the last 2-3 years (with the exception of the Skyriim CE, and Defiance, natch), I have bought at no more than half the original price within six months of it landing on the shelves (not including my 10% discount, of course), and often times for even less than that. Hell, I have seen consumer electronics (very successful ones I might add - I am sure we call can think of a few!) that drop price drastically within months of first being released. Sadly, 'tis only those early adopters that get to pay full price. Again, this is the market trend and in no way reflects on the actual "health" of said product.


You are the Target 'expert'. I am not speaking for what your store (that you worked at) did/does. But that certainly doesn't mean what ALL Target stores do and more importantly, what all other stores do that aren't.. Target.

Back to the point, Trion probably didn't make a decision to stop selling cards to stores.. who would do that? It's probably more that they cannot offer a good enough deal for profit to those stores and those stores are saying "Thanks but no thanks" looking at the totality of Defiance.

Unless Target and other major stores have managers working in them that have absolutely no idea what Defiance is doing as a whole price wise and how the game is going, they'd be buying up tons of cards.

But I think it's more they do have people who know what's going on and deciding to not restock those cards instead but that's opinion, not really fact.

I wouldn't consider myself the Target expert, just someone speaking from experience. Again, that experience embodies more than just Target - it includes both successful and failed businesses both large and small. Speaking from a very broad perspective, the market trend in retail today emphasizes the new and shiny. Therefore, older product will naturally be phased out in some aspect (yes something even as young a four months is considered old in retail standards), and that has nothing to do with the "Future" of said product. Trust me, no one in the buyer's division of Target Corporate HQ cares one whit about how many players Defiance has right now. It's all about what's coming down the pipeline and making plans for shelf space for November and December, and determining where in the regional markets it makes the best sense to free up shelf space for the new and shiny and where it makes sense to keep the current selling inventory.

I'll leave it at this. Thinking back to all the forums I have visited for games I played (both ones I loved and ones I hated), and did not play, but was interested in following, one thing never seemed to change. The "Death" post and debate. Ironically, the majority of those games are still alive and kicking today, including WoW. What amazes me, that even with the flood of choices we as gamers can make in the MMO genre of what to play, it's only a minority of those games that actually shut down. I think that above all speaks volumes in the health of the PC gaming era. Needless to say, when I compare (subjectively, of course), the entertainment value, fun, and work that I get out of and has gone into Defiance to many of those other games that still manage to keep the servers up, I'm not too worried about the future or health of this game in the slightest.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 12:20 PM
I am sure someone could come up with a list. But in the end, I guess it all comes down to how you define successful. Taking the latest big name faildog - SWTOR, I consider that a successful game. After all, they are in the top 3 of MMOs for number of subscriptions, the leader of which is an anomaly that even the creators said cannot be repeated, and the other is a unique sci-fi sandbox game with a subscription.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider 4 months a benchmark on pricing. As I am trying to recall, every single game I have bought over the last 2-3 years (with the exception of the Skyriim CE, and Defiance, natch), I have bought at no more than half the original price within six months of it landing on the shelves (not including my 10% discount, of course), and often times for even less than that. Hell, I have seen consumer electronics (very successful ones I might add - I am sure we call can think of a few!) that drop price drastically within months of first being released. Sadly, 'tis only those early adopters that get to pay full price. Again, this is the market trend and in no way reflects on the actual "health" of said product.



I wouldn't consider myself the Target expert, just someone speaking from experience. Again, that experience embodies more than just Target - it includes both successful and failed businesses both large and small. Speaking from a very broad perspective, the market trend in retail today emphasizes the new and shiny. Therefore, older product will naturally be phased out in some aspect (yes something even as young a four months is considered old in retail standards), and that has nothing to do with the "Future" of said product. Trust me, no one in the buyer's division of Target Corporate HQ cares one whit about how many players Defiance has right now. It's all about what's coming down the pipeline and making plans for shelf space for November and December, and determining where in the regional markets it makes the best sense to free up shelf space for the new and shiny and where it makes sense to keep the current selling inventory.

I'll leave it at this. Thinking back to all the forums I have visited for games I played (both ones I loved and ones I hated), and did not play, but was interested in following, one thing never seemed to change. The "Death" post and debate. Ironically, the majority of those games are still alive and kicking today, including WoW. What amazes me, that even with the flood of choices we as gamers can make in the MMO genre of what to play, it's only a minority of those games that actually shut down. I think that above all speaks volumes in the health of the PC gaming era. Needless to say, when I compare (subjectively, of course), the entertainment value, fun, and work that I get out of and has gone into Defiance to many of those other games that still manage to keep the servers up, I'm not too worried about the future or health of this game in the slightest.See, this is what doesn't make any sense.

You say SWTOR is a 'faildog', yet they publicly posted they had almost half a MILLION paying subs after going F2P. What universe is that fail?

In what feasible reality does almost 6.5 million dollars each month strictly from subscription (not cash shop sales) = faildog? I guess in a Haterverse maybe, but I don't even play TOR and know that's damn successful.

You don't consider four months a benchmark? You do realize of course, this game is selling for $10. There really isn't much lower it can go in five months. Simple math shows you it's almost down 90% of it's launch value.. in less than half a year. What other games you know when down that fast as mmos? There is no list you can come up with, not sure why you pretended "someone else" can; I asked YOU.

I really don't think we need to go into employment history. That wasn't asked or demanded since any of it can be faked (I know, I know.. why would you have to lie?) so let's leave that out. Let's talk about Occam's razor.

Is it more plausible that Target (where the poster said Trion stopped selling the cards) decided to stop selling them because they looked at the price of Defiance falling almost 90% in business trade in four months and assumed if they bought more cards from Trion, that they probably would have a hard time selling them for any real profit/over time

or

that that Target sold them like hotcakes, asked for more and Trion simply told Target "Sorry, we aren't selling you any more Bit cards, even though you want them"?

MRE
08-05-2013, 12:38 PM
It's a game that will have dedicated fans playing until the servers are shut down.
I played Homefront and bought the extra dlc until the servers shutdown and, I was full of 'Never again' will I throw good money after bad!
The maps on the dlc were devoid of life except for the achievement hunters with a mate (or four) faking it to get the ' You have done it all award ' and they hated us Random's.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 12:47 PM
See, this is what doesn't make any sense.

You say SWTOR is a 'faildog', yet they publicly posted they had almost half a MILLION paying subs after going F2P. What universe is that fail?

In what feasible reality does almost 6.5 million dollars each month strictly from subscription (not cash shop sales) = faildog? I guess in a Haterverse maybe, but I don't even play TOR and know that's damn successful.

Because it seems to still be the popular trend with the "TORtantic" despite all the evidence to the contrary. SWTOR failed as a pure subscription based game, even I as a fanboi need to admit that. However, by all appearances, it seems to be a very good game as a F2P hybrid. I, myself, account for two of the subscriptions (one of which I had when I first started playing the game 3 months after launch and buying the CE for $30 - by my calculations that's 80% off the retail price ... 3 months after release).


You don't consider four months a benchmark? You do realize of course, this game is selling for $10. There really isn't much lower it can go in five months. Simple math shows you it's almost down 90% of it's launch value.. in less than half a year. What other games you know when down that fast as mmos? There is no list you can come up with, not sure why you pretended "someone else" can; I asked YOU.
No I don't because such price reductions are the norm in the technology industry, of which the gaming industry is an ancillary. I could take a picture of my 5 shelf gaming bookcase, but since I haven't saved any of the receipts from all those games (which includes about a dozen MMOs) in which I paid less than 1/2 the original cost within the first six months or less, it would really be meaningless (and since it can be photoshopped anyway ...). As I said, I am sure someone out there can do the legwork and research to put together a list. I simply do not care enough to do so about a trend that really doesn't concern me in the slightest.


I really don't think we need to go into employment history. That wasn't asked or demanded since any of it can be faked (I know, I know.. why would you have to lie?) so let's leave that out. Let's talk about Occam's razor.

Is it more plausible that Target (where the poster said Trion stopped selling the cards) decided to stop selling them because they looked at the price of Defiance falling almost 90% in business trade in four months and assumed if they bought more cards from Trion, that they probably would have a hard time selling them for any real profit/over time

or

that that Target sold them like hotcakes, asked for more and Trion simply told Target "Sorry, we aren't selling you any more Bit cards, even though you want them"?

Neither actually. That's simply not how the process works at Target, nor several of the other retailers I have been involved with. Take it for what it is worth, I don't care if anyone believes me or not. I haven't had much dealings or experience with other big box stores, but using my prior knowledge and experience can make an educated guess that it's similar for them as well. Regardless, the fact that someone no longer sees an item at a store has no bearing on the actual "health" of said item. Again, talking from personal experience, there are many instances where items were discontinued in stores but are continued to be available through on-line purchasing. Thankfully, the Internet makes inventory management much easier for brick and mortar businesses in many cases.

dominad
08-05-2013, 01:07 PM
I am sorry but anyone who is trying to say there has NOT been a drop off in players is in la la land.
Many members here posted unallowed good bye threads or like me stated they stopped playing.
There is a lot of people taking breaks from the game, not playing as much and loads of xbox people have been getting the free gold games and playing other things. I used to see 20 - 30 people on Defiance when I logged in now it is literally anywhere from 1 - 3 people. Even if my experience is heavily skewed it still shows a decrease it activity. Even if that is the case there will be others who are seeing the same I am just a lower percent. Only Trion knows the figures.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 01:25 PM
I am sorry but anyone who is trying to say there has NOT been a drop off in players is in la la land.
Many members here posted unallowed good bye threads or like me stated they stopped playing.
There is a lot of people taking breaks from the game, not playing as much and loads of xbox people have been getting the free gold games and playing other things. I used to see 20 - 30 people on Defiance when I logged in now it is literally anywhere from 1 - 3 people. Even if my experience is heavily skewed it still shows a decrease it activity. Even if that is the case there will be others who are seeing the same I am just a lower percent. Only Trion knows the figures.

Anecdotal evidence is still ... anecdotal. Indeed, only Trion has the actual facts, so anything else is pure speculation and to equate that with the death of the game is simply ... ridiculous. This is what happens to games - Eve being the only MMO to buck the trend (good for them). Are there as many people playing Wizardry now than there were when it was first released in the early '80s? What about Baldur's Gate, Doom, Quake, Dragon's Age, Oblivion, etc. This is what happens with games. People buy them. People play them. Some people buy new games and move on. Some people buy new games and play both, but tend to play the older one less. Some people stick with the old game and don't buy anything new. For some reason however, players now see fit to see this trend as meaning the "death" of an MMO, when it is simply the natural ebb and flow of the playerbase. As I mentioned in a previous post, comparatively speaking, only a small percentage of MMOs are actually "turned off." Most continue on with their dedicated fans and playerbase.

Games like Guild Wars and Defiance are in a more unique position in that they are Buy to Play, so there is no feeling of having to log in and play to get one's money's worth as the subscription based MMOs of old tended to do. Let's get real here, these games are Themeparks, and similar to the single-player games in that there is a finite amount of content to consume before the base game is "completed." Therefore, in between content releases, there is no need to someone to continue to log in as much as they did before "completing" the game until more content is made available. Just like Guild Wars has done over the last 8+ years, people will come and go as the content is expanded and the special events come and go. Even now, in maintenance mode, GW shows no signs of dying, despite all those posts to the contrary that have been posted in the forums since May of 2005.

dominad
08-05-2013, 01:29 PM
Anecdotal evidence is still ... anecdotal. Indeed, only Trion has the actual facts, so anything else is pure speculation and to equate that with the death of the game is simply ... ridiculous. This is what happens to games - Eve being the only MMO to buck the trend (good for them). Are there as many people playing Wizardry now than there were when it was first released in the early '80s? What about Baldur's Gate, Doom, Quake, Dragon's Age, Oblivion, etc. This is what happens with games. People buy them. People play them. Some people buy new games and move on. Some people buy new games and play both, but tend to play the older one less. Some people stick with the old game and don't buy anything new. For some reason however, players now see fit to see this trend as meaning the "death" of an MMO, when it is simply the natural ebb and flow of the playerbase. As I mentioned in a previous post, comparatively speaking, only a small percentage of MMOs are actually "turned off." Most continue on with their dedicated fans and playerbase.

Games like Guild Wars and Defiance are in a more unique position in that they are Buy to Play, so there is no feeling of having to log in and play to get one's money's worth as the subscription based MMOs of old tended to do. Let's get real here, these games are Themeparks, and similar to the single-player games in that there is a finite amount of content to consume before the base game is "completed." Therefore, in between content releases, there is no need to someone to continue to log in as much as they did before "completing" the game until more content is made available. Just like Guild Wars has done over the last 8+ years, people will come and go as the content is expanded and the special events come and go. Even now, in maintenance mode, GW shows no signs of dying, despite all those posts to the contrary that have been posted in the forums since May of 2005.

Why do people go on and on about MMO's when I have been told this game is NOT an MMO.
I do know from I have learned from this forum and Defiance if I ever see a game labelled MMO I will not go near it with a 10 foot pole. I much prefer a working game that I play beat want to keep because it was awesome and get out every 2 -3 months to play the DLC or help my friends, and then the odd time for nostalgia sake. I guess some games are so good their retail price is nearly the same as release day unlike this.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Why do people go on and on about MMO's when I have been told this game is NOT an MMO.
I do know from I have learned from this forum and Defiance if I ever see a game labelled MMO I will not go near it with a 10 foot pole. I much prefer a working game that I play beat want to keep because it was awesome and get out every 2 -3 months to play the DLC or help my friends, and then the odd time for nostalgia sake. I guess some games are so good their retail price is nearly the same as release day unlike this.

Well, I know the definition of MMO seems to be under debate of late, but let me put it this way Defiance is more of an MMO than SimCity could ever hope (or dream) of being.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the rest of your post, as it seems a bit convoluted, but if you are talking about bugs and such. Well, welcome to the technology age in the 21st Century. It seems to be an unfortunate fact of life that games now (MMO or off-line) are released with what many affectionately call a "beta" state. The truth of the matter is that we, the gamers, have brought this upon ourselves. We continually demand more from our games in terms of content, performance, and eye candy, and as such creating and coding such a product has become infinitely more complex and complicated. No matter how much QA is done internally, a game will never be released in a "ready" state, much less a perfect state. This doesn't excuse some of the brokenness that occurs in games, but it is simply a fact that we, as gamers, should have learned to expect and live with by now. Personally speaking, while I have found many of the bugs to be aggravating to say the least, nothing has caused me to think of them as gamebreaking or quit the game because of them. TBH, I have played games that are more broken than this a year after their release. Heck, I still see bugs and glitches in games that are over a decade old and were there since the Alpha, Beta, and launch of said game.

But really, this is a topic that gets debated in an endless circle and ultimately goes no where. How much the game costs now is meaningless. How many players you happen to see at the Bug N Chug now are meaningless. The random bug that causes me to fall through the world and die in PvP is meaningless. What does, and should, mean something is how much enjoyment one is getting from the game. If you enjoy the game and the gameplay, then keep playing, report the bugs as you find them, and understand that it takes time to get things fixed. If you don't enjoy the game, then you need to go find one that you do enjoy. I am a huge Star Wars fan, but I still am not going to bang my head against a brick wall with a huge Star Wars mural on it because that is simply not enjoyable to me (any more than playing SWG for those few hours of my life off and on through it's life that I will never get back). Simple as that.

defiant
08-05-2013, 02:38 PM
I don't know its an mmo with managed instances, so there's a lot of perception involved "it being online based and on a CONSOLE", its guaranteed that there will be lower numbers often (Completely Irrelevant) to the community's health, the average Console' gamer doesn't have an mmo mindset and there was no chance that everyone with a console would day/night cycle an mmo on their tv to keep numbers up for your conscience "its a casual environment with some hard gamers". In my honest opinion players are painting a grim picture on these forums that's just not that realistic. I'm not blind to the pessimism of business, but with all info being server side, and the minimal chance of gamers moodily rifling through their Other console mmo's, I'll probably continue playing as I do most of my games.

Its bizarre how much be all/end all ranting goes on here, I see massive population spikes randomly all the time, some days are lazier with trading, some are more about xp. If the truly Small number of attention hoarding ,quitting children want to believe the game died with their departure than they can go ahead and do that. I'm part of a "gamerscore" generation, and will always juggle the odd title enjoyably looking for completion. grandiose expectations aside this isn't 1996 where a single niche community worships the only mmo, it 2013 lol and I have fun hunting for legendaries, there's Not a lot of loothunters on console and I Hate borderlands because outside of a community environment, the idea of pack hoarding loot seems childish.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 04:52 PM
Because it seems to still be the popular trend with the "TORtantic" despite all the evidence to the contrary. SWTOR failed as a pure subscription based game, even I as a fanboi need to admit that. However, by all appearances, it seems to be a very good game as a F2P hybrid. I, myself, account for two of the subscriptions (one of which I had when I first started playing the game 3 months after launch and buying the CE for $30 - by my calculations that's 80% off the retail price ... 3 months after release).


No I don't because such price reductions are the norm in the technology industry, of which the gaming industry is an ancillary. I could take a picture of my 5 shelf gaming bookcase, but since I haven't saved any of the receipts from all those games (which includes about a dozen MMOs) in which I paid less than 1/2 the original cost within the first six months or less, it would really be meaningless (and since it can be photoshopped anyway ...). As I said, I am sure someone out there can do the legwork and research to put together a list. I simply do not care enough to do so about a trend that really doesn't concern me in the slightest.



Neither actually. That's simply not how the process works at Target, nor several of the other retailers I have been involved with. Take it for what it is worth, I don't care if anyone believes me or not. I haven't had much dealings or experience with other big box stores, but using my prior knowledge and experience can make an educated guess that it's similar for them as well. Regardless, the fact that someone no longer sees an item at a store has no bearing on the actual "health" of said item. Again, talking from personal experience, there are many instances where items were discontinued in stores but are continued to be available through on-line purchasing. Thankfully, the Internet makes inventory management much easier for brick and mortar businesses in many cases.
It's just amazing that I had a conversation with someone who thinks a game that pulls in probably over 7 million dollars a month is a faildog,

and defends another game that went from $60 to $10 in less than four months as 'not enough data.. cannot call it failing yet'.

I don't even remember Warhammer Online fans being that... interesting. :p

But seriously, thanks for the discussion. I certainly will remember this one for awhile.

ten4
08-05-2013, 04:59 PM
Hit ego cap at 4721 unless I join zerg guild + PvP for 3 months.

No ty.

In hind sight, I should have abused the rep reset glitch like all the other 5kers but I took the high road and chose not to exploit it. W/e.

So I will stop playing until the lack luster, content light DLC shows up 1+ month from now which might hold my interest for a week or two.

Trion does know how to make a good MMO (Rift), but sadly they just went for a quick fast buck with defiance. Oh well.

Fancypants
08-05-2013, 04:59 PM
Why do people go on and on about MMO's when I have been told this game is NOT an MMO.Simple.

When they want to say how much 'value' they get out of Defiance as a game, they start calling it a "mmo" and say it's better than getting Borderlands, CoD, Halo, Battlefield, etc.

When they want to make excuses for Trion, the game's shortcomings, the massive amount of bugs, missed deadlines, small amount of repetitive content, then they call it a dudebro shooter and say 'Well compared to GW2, WoW, Rift, etc its not supposed to blah blah blah".

It's called 'situational ethics'. :cool:

Satsuki
08-05-2013, 05:09 PM
Defiance is an MMO, no matter who says otherwise. Massively Multiplayer Online, that's the definition of MMO. Its just not much of an RPG. Its an MMO Shooter.

But yes, a declining player base is cause for concern with any MMO. It takes money every day to run the servers, pay the staff, overhead, etc. and if the daily income from sales of the game and bit store falls below the sustainable margin for any length of time, the lights will go out in Paradise.

BJWyler
08-05-2013, 09:52 PM
It's just amazing that I had a conversation with someone who thinks a game that pulls in probably over 7 million dollars a month is a faildog,

and defends another game that went from $60 to $10 in less than four months as 'not enough data.. cannot call it failing yet'.

I don't even remember Warhammer Online fans being that... interesting. :p

But seriously, thanks for the discussion. I certainly will remember this one for awhile.

Now who is making assumptions? I said it failed as a subscription based game (and failed to meet EA's expectations of over taking WoW) - that is fact and the reason why they implemented a F2P (or more precisely, the Freemium) based model. This is the perfect sign of a game being able to turn itself around and become more profitable and popular than it was even at launch. However, according to your previous statements, "If the game was 'very good', then it wouldn't have gone to F2P." I guess it wasn't so bad after all, and quite happy to have proved all the same doom and gloom posts that continually popped up on the SWTOR forums like this one wrong (and amusingly enough, still do).

Yet, I bought SWTOR at almost the same deep discount that you use to claim Defiance is "Dying." I don't think "interesting" is enough to describe that paradox. Amazing that the price of a game and the time of a reduction in said price don't seem to mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Blondin
08-06-2013, 03:50 AM
Now who is making assumptions? I said it failed as a subscription based game (and failed to meet EA's expectations of over taking WoW) - that is fact and the reason why they implemented a F2P (or more precisely, the Freemium) based model. This is the perfect sign of a game being able to turn itself around and become more profitable and popular than it was even at launch. However, according to your previous statements, "If the game was 'very good', then it wouldn't have gone to F2P." I guess it wasn't so bad after all, and quite happy to have proved all the same doom and gloom posts that continually popped up on the SWTOR forums like this one wrong (and amusingly enough, still do).

Yet, I bought SWTOR at almost the same deep discount that you use to claim Defiance is "Dying." I don't think "interesting" is enough to describe that paradox. Amazing that the price of a game and the time of a reduction in said price don't seem to mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.
No need to be a genius to know that SWTOR is a fail, EA just made a marketing product, no originality, they didn't take any risk, a bad wow copy, Star Wars is one of the biggest licence of all time, ppl could have spend millions for this game, Star Wars MMO was the dream of thousands of ppl all around the world.

Maitreakow
08-06-2013, 05:10 AM
I agree that dlc is not worth with solo arenas and with a vehicle without turret, I'm not buying it.

The current cerebrus problem (passangers standing in middle of road) is so easy to solve...

1) When someone enter a vehicle hes body should become invisible and immune to dmg.
2) When the vehicle explode/passenger exists the body return to original state.

Not sure i can agree with this fix. There are players out there who excel at sniping guys out of a moving Cerberus. That change would make this, as well as triple kills from blowing up the vehicle with my courier, moot.

Yeah, some selfish reasoning there, I know...

Indra Echo
08-06-2013, 11:50 AM
Logical fallacy. "Good" is a matter of personal preference. There are many factors in determining whether an MMO should go F2P, or be F2P from the outset, not the least of which is CCP (which is a lot less for the "classic" games when compared to a "modern" MMO) and the fact that a cash shop that usually accompanies F2P can make a crapton of money with a smaller overall population - sometimes more than a subscription based game.

Exactly. F2P doesn't imply "not very good". It's the current trend and expected by players and used fully by devs for those micro-transactions. It's the fact that having a game or portion of it be F2P is a big draw. Devs already see that people like demos, even the time limited full game versions, or the release of portions of games that might get players to buy the rest of the game. The F2P idea has been used a lot even for more traditional SP games. The company might release some MP maps or types of matches for free and then hope it will get a player to buy the whole game.

And to be clear some games have gone F2P due to dwindling subscriptions but that could be because the game's not that good or just because players have so many choices of similar games to play and they pick F2P. Other things that form a desire for them are truly financially inspired and time constraints. If I only ever play games once a month, I'm not going to want to pay for very much. I won't buy a subscription and I may not buy DLC of any kind so I might rent games, buy used ones, or play a lot of F2P games and won't care if I get that far in them (when companies frequently start requiring money). It's kind of like gaming's version of going to a library. Some books are great, some aren't so, but free is free. And if I can't buy, free is better.

M0G
08-06-2013, 11:54 AM
I agree. And the new arenas in the DLC being solo play only apparently?? This is a MMO. Something wrong there.

If Trion REALLY makes this game focus EVEN MORE on Single player...I might have to call it quits myself.


Trion, please confirm these WILL be multiplayer! you guys would be killing yourselfs with this if it aint....

Indra Echo
08-06-2013, 11:56 AM
Not sure i can agree with this fix. There are players out there who excel at sniping guys out of a moving Cerberus. That change would make this, as well as triple kills from blowing up the vehicle with my courier, moot.

Yeah, some selfish reasoning there, I know...

I don't think people in vehicles should be immune to damage at all. I do think they should be inside the vehicle though. And an exploding vehicle should kill the occupants. The only real problem is that "out of body" experience and it's not just specific to the Cerberus but is most frequent with it.

I was playing the game the other day in a group with friends. We were following a friend around helping her with missions. At one point we stopped to get rid of some Volge and she had to come back to meet us. Well her body had left the ATV she was in and flipped quickly back to where we were and then her ATV suddenly started driving backwards at us. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in the game. I didn't know it was her ATV and I was wondering where this remote controlled ATV came from. I ran to where she was and she was kind of stuck in this driving position and then the driverless ATV just suddenly was there. Ghosts I tell you.

dahanese
08-06-2013, 12:18 PM
If Trion REALLY makes this game focus EVEN MORE on Single player...I might have to call it quits myself.


Trion, please confirm these WILL be multiplayer! you guys would be killing yourselfs with this if it aint....

Arenas will be SP at launch but MP in the future. And that's just Arenas - we have a bunch of other stuff that's all MP/coop/group/open world/can I add another term here? focused.

TravelerX1
08-06-2013, 12:27 PM
Arenas will be SP at launch but MP in the future. And that's just Arenas - we have a bunch of other stuff that's all MP/coop/group/open world/can I add another term here? focused.

When? Soon?
Stop teasing us, seriously I liked it better getting no info

thejx4
08-06-2013, 12:40 PM
Arenas will be SP at launch but MP in the future. And that's just Arenas - we have a bunch of other stuff that's all MP/coop/group/open world/can I add another term here? focused.


A bunch of other stuff? You mean a Siege mode, 1 PvP map and a new Arkfall type?

Yeah...that's a bunch of other stuff...

N3gativeCr33p
08-06-2013, 12:45 PM
When? Soon?
Stop teasing us, seriously I liked it better getting no info

But I like it when she teases us... ;)

Indra Echo
08-06-2013, 12:51 PM
No need to be a genius to know that SWTOR is a fail, EA just made a marketing product, no originality, they didn't take any risk, a bad wow copy, Star Wars is one of the biggest licence of all time, ppl could have spend millions for this game, Star Wars MMO was the dream of thousands of ppl all around the world.


It also had a lot to do not only with a badly done product but the whole ME3 debacle. A lot (not known how many) of people decided to dump Bioware anything.

And quite personally, I'm way less inclined to buy anything with EA's logo on it due to ME3, the Sims3, Dead Space 3, and apparently anything with a 3 in it. EA is one company that is doing its level best to ruin gaming. They've tested out ideas and expressed a desire for day one DLC (to get players to fork over more money right away before they've played the game), microtransactions (to get you to pay for bullets, necessary things in the game), and for single player games to be tied to multi-player sort of to give you more opportunities to use real cash in the game. They tried it with ME3, but had to back peddle on that SP/MP thing, but then used it for Dead Space 3 because certain parts of the game were not accessible if you didn't have a team.

And there have been times when EA SP games DLC will not play if you are not online. I just don't have much faith in them since they've been behind efforts to get rid of the used game market, started that whole online code thing, and even though they dropped that, seemingly will instead require that you register with Origin to play a next gen game. They also were going to require you have an always online connection while playing one of their games on either next gen console and it's unknown if they dropped that in light of the xbox One's backlash.

Indra Echo
08-06-2013, 12:55 PM
A bunch of other stuff? You mean a Siege mode, 1 PvP map and a new Arkfall type?

Yeah...that's a bunch of other stuff...

Open world dueling, IIRC. Go look at the list of stuff to be released in the first DLC and compare it to other games where you get a map pack for $15. That stuff is the easiest to make and they charge an arm and a leg for it. New missions, new coops, sieges, arenas, a new PvP map, a new vehicle, new weapons, new character to play as, and turrets and other stuff, that's a lot harder to make and incorporate than new maps.

N3gativeCr33p
08-06-2013, 01:22 PM
New missions, new coops, sieges, arenas, a new PvP map, a new vehicle, new weapons, new character to play as, and turrets and other stuff, that's a lot harder to make and incorporate than new maps.

Quoted for truth.

M0G
08-06-2013, 01:53 PM
I
Cannot have it both ways. Especially when the company ITSELF (not the players) were the ones talking up the Truck of Doom. Not sure why they should get a free pass for creating the hype, then slinking back into a quiet corner with only fans to defend them.

Its why I stopped leading the DFMDS (defiance fanboy mobile defense squad)

Not only would Trion NOT have my back, but I would get the banhammer on the regular.....Well...not me...but "someone" I know....yea......lets say that.....

Its silly, and they deserve all the hate now......It JUST DOES NOT STOP!! Lies, taking things away....

Lets do this list (and im forgetting probably 100)

-Episode Content. We were promised, every week, new content and episode mission relating to the story...I guess finding data recorders, and new pursuits is just as fun????????

-DLC, Pushed back

-Weather effects removed, even tho shown on trailers

-Truck of Doom now being taken away

-Legendary Drop rates from Mobs

-Arenas were going to be MP, they are now SP

And probably 100 more im forgetting....

SirCampsalot
08-06-2013, 04:20 PM
Actually, free to play does not mean "not very good" not even remotely. Now if Rift went free to play within the first 6 months, then you'd have an argument. But as it stands, you're flailing your arms and missing.

One of the reasons why Rift went F2P was the under performance in sales of their expansion, which also resulted in layoffs at Trion.

SirCampsalot

ten4
08-06-2013, 04:26 PM
Open world dueling, IIRC. Go look at the list of stuff to be released in the first DLC and compare it to other games where you get a map pack for $15. That stuff is the easiest to make and they charge an arm and a leg for it. New missions, new coops, sieges, arenas, a new PvP map, a new vehicle, new weapons, new character to play as, and turrets and other stuff, that's a lot harder to make and incorporate than new maps.

Compare a Borderlands 2 DLC vs a Defiance DLC which are both around the same price and tell me with a straight face which has more 'value'. DLC1 looks lame and cheap.

Wiggle Pooh
08-06-2013, 05:28 PM
They would have rather payed a large burly man to ravage them from the rear than to have payed for this game. Infectors.