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Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:00 PM
Trion Worlds shuts down San Diego office


Almost immediately after an announcement that Scott Hartsman was rejoining the company as its new CEO, news has surfaced that Trion Worlds is closing its San Diego office.

A Trion Worlds representative was able to confirm the news for Gamasutra. The news comes on the heels of reports from several months ago that company-wide layoffs had all but eradicated the team dedicated to Defiance. Here is the full statement:

"We can confirm that the San Diego studio will be closing. The day to day operations of Defiance will be moved to our Redwood City studio where it can be managed alongside Rift and our other in development titles including ArcheAge and End of Nations. As part of this transition, we are working hard to ensure that a number of great people will be making the move from San Diego to the Bay Area and continue their work at Trion."

It is unclear at this time how many workers will be affected by the studio's closure. Gamasutra has followed up with Trion for clarification but has not yet received a reply.


The next few months should be quite exciting.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/197933/Trion_Worlds_shuts_down_San_Diego_office.php

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:03 PM
Well that was unexpected...

Gomly
08-08-2013, 01:03 PM
I'll be honest, i'm starting to get a little bit worried (which is not like me at all) about the future of those games and this.

All of this is incredibly similar to how Realtime Worlds crumbled.

N3gativeCr33p
08-08-2013, 01:05 PM
I'll be honest, i'm starting to get a little bit worried (which is not like me at all) about the future of those games and this.

You and me both, sir.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:06 PM
If it wasn't Hartsman, I'd be worried, but Rift started a downhill roll when he left. I think he has what it takes to juggle Trion's projects nicely. Moving all the studios into one place is a damn good start. Still not sure why they had some spread out, in the same state even. o.O

Aaricane
08-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Great......

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:08 PM
It wasn't massive layoffs, they're moving the studio to the Redwood City studio, which is a smart move in my opinion.

Sanguinesun
08-08-2013, 01:08 PM
Well that was unexpected...

I wish I had the luxury to say the same :/

Sanguinesun
08-08-2013, 01:09 PM
It wasn't massive layoffs, they're moving the studio to the Redwood City studio, which is a smart move in my opinion.

I agree 100%. I think the recentralization of projects will help some of their issues emensely.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:12 PM
Im still mad that EoN got turned into a MOBA and that they last Warface, whatever the story with that was. Looked like a damn good game.

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:12 PM
https://www.facebook.com/hartsman/posts/10151903094803906

Hartsman makes a post on facebook, not sure how in touch he is with this game but a statement like that is huge.

dahanese
08-08-2013, 01:13 PM
https://www.facebook.com/hartsman/posts/10151903094803906

Hartsman makes a post on facebook, not sure how in touch he is with this game but a statement like that is huge.

Scott is in touch with the game. He's good people - and that's an understatement.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:13 PM
https://www.facebook.com/hartsman/posts/10151903094803906

Hartsman makes a post on facebook, not sure how in touch he is with this game but a statement like that is huge.

Here, this should clear it up.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/22/hartsman-the-traditional-aaa-style-of-development-and-distribu/

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Scott is in touch with the game. He's good people - and that's an understatement.

Amen to that! I'm so glad he's back at Trion!

JxSiN
08-08-2013, 01:15 PM
https://www.facebook.com/hartsman/posts/10151903094803906

Hartsman makes a post on facebook, not sure how in touch he is with this game but a statement like that is huge.

Can you post the statement for those of us who choose not to use social media please and thanks

EDIT: NM, switched from my phone to the computer and the link pulled up without it telling me to log into anything

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:16 PM
Scott is in touch with the game. He's good people - and that's an understatement.

Ok, I don't know the guy and I didn't want to come off as bashing the game. Dahanese, I trust you and if you say hes good people then that's good enough for me.

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:16 PM
Can you post the statement for those of us who choose not to use social media please and thanks

Scott Hartsman 13 followers
May 17 at 5:03pm

Same as last time - If I can help at all with intros/anything, please find me. This model of game making is so fundamentally broken.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:17 PM
Scott Hartsman 13 followers
May 17 at 5:03pm

Same as last time - If I can help at all with intros/anything, please find me. This model of game making is so fundamentally broken.

Here is the follow up to that post.


A few days ago we reported on RIFT's impending free-to-play conversion, followed by the news that Trion was undergoing a second set of apparently unrelated layoffs. Former Trion studio GM and CCO Scott Hartsman responded to the layoffs on Twitter, intimating that aspects of the gaming industry are "fundamentally broken."

After we invited your thoughts on that same subject in a Daily Grind earlier this week, we contacted Hartsman in the hopes of getting him to elaborate. Join us after the cut for the resulting interview.

Massively: Your tweet raised a few eyebrows, even after people clicked through to read the whole convo about soaring costs/expectations/etc. For those who didn't get a chance to read it, can you elaborate a little bit about what you meant by the industry being "fundamentally broken"? Do you mean the way MMOs are being pumped out, the free-to-play craze, the way employees are treated disposably, or something else entirely?

Scott Hartsman: I don't know of anyone who's hired with the intent of treating people disposably. No one ever wants that, even the companies frequently perceived as "evil." The industry is generally full of good, smart people trying to create the best entertainment they can. I think what's become broken is the traditional AAA style of development and distribution, MMO or otherwise.

Here -- a picture's worth a thousand words.
http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2013/05/hartsmanchart.jpg

zomg massively sorta did journalism!

We're approaching the point at which AAA projects need to be blockbusters just to sustain everyone in the ecosystem: the developer, the publisher, the manufacturing and physical goods cost, the distributor, the retailer, and in some cases, the platform/console owner.

The movie model worked when companies could absorb missteps and teams could hopefully learn from their mistakes to fight another day. As the absolute costs go up, fewer and fewer companies are capable of doing so. That's what's broken. When it comes to who pays the piper in that list a couple sentences ago, it tends to get paid left-to-right, beginning with the developer.

More product creators realize that, and more are choosing to step out of that ecosystem entirely.
Stepping away gets easier every day in a world that now contains things to help you operate independently at a far lower cost, faster than ever before, from funding to accelerating your development, helping you host, helping you bill, helping you distribute, helping you analyze, and so on.

Beyond those stepping out of AAA, take a look the biggest games startup success stories over the past few years. Which ones operate outside the old AAA ecosystem (Riot, Mojang, and SuperCell come to mind), and which are inside of it? (Have there been any inside of it?)

With any luck, we'll see more endeavors where the balance of power returns to the product creators and the audiences they're trying to serve in the most direct relationship possible -- where everyone involved is a "product person" whose sole mission is to best serve the customer. That's powerful and exciting.

You've said before that F2P wasn't a good match for RIFT because the game wasn't designed with it in mind. How much work is involved in retrofitting a game like RIFT for a totally new business model?

A lot of work -- far more than I imagine most people realize. If you can come up with a model that fits your audience, put a sufficiently sized team on it for enough time, and implement it very well, it absolutely can work. Most companies aren't in that position, however.

My commentary back then was more about F2P conversions that alienate existing customers and end up being counterproductive to the long term health of a service -- the ones where content or level gates get added as quickly as possible, advancement rates get slowed down, a store gets added, and developers hope enough of their problems get solved in the precious little time they have to do the job.

Over the last year, we've also seen a lot wider acceptance of free-with-genuine-value-add models in core gaming, where players are paying for enjoyment or as a way to say thank you, not paying to remove pain, like the original free models were. Model, game, and audience have to be a good fit. The customer has to feel he is getting a genuine value for his dollar, no matter the model. That all has to work together. That's the important part.

As a developer do you find it difficult to separate gameplay design from monetization design? Have these disciplines called for individual devs with individual skillsets in the MMOs you've worked on, and if so do you think they'll continue to be separate going forward?

It's challenging, but also exciting.

In past generations, in a lot of places, it was, "Devs, just do your dev things and let the business people figure out the business-y bits. Business people, figure out which of the eight widget types it is, get it on the shelf, and here's some money to get people to buy it." That's all changing.

Going forward, we'll see an expansion in both directions as developers become more business-aware and non-developers become more product-aware. That's actually a great thing. It means more people inside of games companies will have to care about the customer than ever before. People of all disciplines now need to be "product people" who are always conscious of their impact on customers and what they experience. Especially online.

Conversely, we'll also start to see more traditional product people with a keener sense for what it takes to succeed as a business in ways their customers will genuinely appreciate. When you think about the number of teams coming up via Kickstarter alone, they're already more familiar with business realities and bank account balances than many AAA developers have ever needed to or been able to be. That's a great starting point.

In the highest-functioning teams, we'll see people with a wider variety of skills all acting as a cohesive team, all with the mission of product first, customer first, everything else dead last.

Is the industry becoming more focused on monetization-driven design?

Certain parts of it were, but it's just now going through the hangover and coming out the other side. Monetization-driven design isn't a sustainable practice. The rise and decline of pure social and the short-term benefits it provided before burning out entire audiences have shown there's only so far that method will take you.

What's happened there has scared the hell out of the investment community with regard to games as a whole, which is really unfortunate since it's such an exciting time full of new opportunities in every dimension.

Many who used to champion that model as the end-all are backing away from it rapidly in favor of the more balanced view that online games have had success with for years. Data exist to help guide you in the long term, not drive you to short-term win after short-term win until your audience begs for mercy.

The biggest successes focus on fun, have the ability to create long-term, mutually beneficial relationships with customers, and then demonstrate that revenue can be a part of that and can smartly let the data guide them along the way.

When you left Trion, RIFT was still firmly in the subscription-only camp (though it did have a limited free trial). In a recent Massively interview, Trion said that internal F2P discussions have been happening for some time. Did that play a role in your decision to leave, or was it more of a looking-for-new-challenges thing?

No role in it whatsoever. The initial rounds of exploring what potential new models could look like were on my whiteboard for a long time. At the time I left, the folks charged with the real, hard work of evolving those conversations into the right answer for RIFT and turning them into a reality were exactly the right people to pull it off. That remains true today.

These are people who know the game well. They care about the game, its customers, and its ability to endure as a business. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've done!

Speaking of, can you tell us what you're up to these days and whether we'll be seeing you working on MMOs in some capacity again?

I've been spending my time doing a lot of learning while quietly helping out a few different places and working on some of my own projects I've been putting off. It's been a great time meeting and reconnecting with people across all parts of the games industry, from small dev to mid-size to large. From devs to investors. From mobile to online to MMO, across the US and Asia.

It's great to know that there are a lot of smart people out there trying to fix these problems and create new paths forward. I promise to let you know when I'm doing something more than quietly again. :)

Excellent, thanks for catching us up, Scott!

JxSiN
08-08-2013, 01:19 PM
Scott Hartsman 13 followers
May 17 at 5:03pm

Same as last time - If I can help at all with intros/anything, please find me. This model of game making is so fundamentally broken.

Thanks man.

BTW, I think the Bay Area is a lot nicer that San Diego (SD is a good place to visit or vacation). My heart just belongs in the area starting from Monterey Bay and going up to SF Bay. I hopefully will make it back there to live one day. :)

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:20 PM
Here, this should clear it up.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/22/hartsman-the-traditional-aaa-style-of-development-and-distribu/

Ah, thank you that did clear up some things.

Gomly
08-08-2013, 01:20 PM
Scott is in touch with the game. He's good people - and that's an understatement.

How many Jelly Babies did that compliment cost......






If it's cheap enough I have 2 bags just for you to tell everyone how fantastic I am.

MacDeath
08-08-2013, 01:25 PM
If it wasn't Hartsman, I'd be worried, but Rift started a downhill roll when he left. I think he has what it takes to juggle Trion's projects nicely. Moving all the studios into one place is a damn good start. Still not sure why they had some spread out, in the same state even. o.O
They were in Redwood Shores so they could hire talent from EA, they were in San Diego so they could hire talent from SOE.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:26 PM
They were in Redwood Shores so they could hire talent from EA, they were in San Diego so they could hire talent from SOE.

Well, that would make sense. The Austin studio?

EV76
08-08-2013, 01:35 PM
So, how will this impact defiance? Hope it's for the best.

crasher
08-08-2013, 01:35 PM
Trion Worlds shuts down San Diego office



The next few months should be quite exciting.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/197933/Trion_Worlds_shuts_down_San_Diego_office.php

Being on fire is exciting, too, but.... :)

I remain optimistic. I love the game, and 95% of the things that make me want to (cumulatively) quit are small things/bugs that are (cumulatively) frustrating.

I really want this game to hang in for the long haul, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd DLC. I've invested a fair amount of additional resources into the game in the way of inv slots and 'stuff', as have many others, and I expect to spend more in the future. So I'm not insisting on F2P - give me more free stuff. I'll spend money if they give me working content worth spending my money on.

If Scott can do it, he's got my best wishes for eternal happiness.

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 01:37 PM
So, how will this impact defiance? Hope it's for the best.

I have no clue, there is a restructure going on with Trion currently and there is no way to tell how it will effect its IP's and its player base/employees. This is a bit fearful to hear if you work with one of those IP's and all this is going on.

MacDeath
08-08-2013, 01:38 PM
Well, that would make sense. The Austin studio?
Austin is a hotbed of MMO talent. Richard Garriot started there with the Ultima series. That said, AFAIK, Trion Austin was never tasked with product development. It's where Trion does Tech Support.

Zugo
08-08-2013, 01:39 PM
Oh dear,

I'm getting a familiar feeling. Flagship Studios?

Gomly
08-08-2013, 01:40 PM
All we can do is speculate, watch what happens and bug the CM's on a daily basis about what the hell is going on.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:41 PM
Oh dear,

I'm getting a familiar feeling. Flagship Studios?

Not at all.

Hartsman is restructuring Trion to where it needs to be to be successful. Defiance gets at least one more Syfy season, so, the ship will be righted. Hartsman, as far as I know, hasn't failed yet.

Gomly
08-08-2013, 01:42 PM
Oh dear,

I'm getting a familiar feeling. Flagship Studios?

Could be worse, Trion could be under EA's wing ..... oh Bullfrog, how I miss you.

duction
08-08-2013, 01:43 PM
could be a good thing... handed over to a department that knows alot about games, ive herd rift is doing OK.

August Barkley
08-08-2013, 01:43 PM
Anyway, some significant changes will definitely follow. It seems that the case moved forward. But where this will lead? I'm not very good at politics, someone can explain with a simple example?

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:45 PM
could be a good thing... handed over to a department that knows alot about games, ive herd rift is doing OK.

Rift is doing more than okay, it's actually flourishing under F2P.

It's the other games that have been...having trouble. EoN being changed to a MOBA. The loss of Warface. Some of the Defiance issues. Lots of balls to juggle and Scott is a master jester, so, Trion is now definitely in good hands with actual developer experience out the wazoo.

EV76
08-08-2013, 01:46 PM
I have no clue, there is a restructure going on with Trion currently and there is no way to tell how it will effect its IP's and its player base/employees. This is a bit fearful to hear if you work with one of those IP's and all this is going on.

I hear you, hope the workers that trion wants to keep and move from San Diego to redwood make the move. Hopefully trion helps them re-locate. As far as my concerns as a player, I would have to ask if this will create a major slowdown in content development. As staff will be relocated.

Soren
08-08-2013, 01:48 PM
Honestly I kind of think this will overall be a good thing for a few reasons:

-Centralizes Trion's development teams into one studio rather than being disconnected in two different places.
-It means we'll potentially get Defiance questions answered more swiftly.
-Livestreams for Defiance should be easier to manage with getting the right developers on and whatnot.
-In general communication will potentially improve greatly and it'll help keep all the games together and on track.

-Saves costs on the San Diego studio building and whatnot. In general probably cuts costs in a lot of areas by doing this.


I think the biggest downside though is that there may be some more layoffs and restructuring within the Defiance team due to this transition. 'cause they probably won't be able to move everyone over to Redwood. HOPEFULLY this doesn't slow down the DLC release progress, but who knows, since they potentially have to move a lot of stuff over to the Redwood Studio in the next few days, if they haven't already started.

So... I think this is a good move for the long term. One of the biggest problems IMO was how the Defiance team felt disconnected from the rest of Trion, and this is a good way to solve it. But we'll see if this ends up helping it or not, I guess.

Awesome Jeff
08-08-2013, 01:49 PM
I hear you, hope the workers that trion wants to keep and move from San Diego to redwood make the move. Hopefully trion helps them re-locate. As far as my concerns as a player, I would have to ask if this will create a major slowdown in content development. As staff will be relocated.

The Defiance time got "obliterated" - http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192495/New_layoffs_reach_Trion.php

So there's really not anyone left to move. And now they're gonna throw the DLC at a new team of developers. They're probably more competent than what got laid off, but it's not like they're gonna be picking up where the other team left of, it's gonna take months before they are ready to even talk about release dates.

Market
08-08-2013, 01:49 PM
Could be worse, Trion could be under EA's wing ..... oh Bullfrog, how I miss you.

I applaud you for this. What EA did to that old Bullfrog IP was an abomination.

Gomly
08-08-2013, 01:51 PM
As far as my concerns as a player, I would have to ask if this will create a major slowdown in content development. As staff will be relocated.

I would expect some form of slowdown. Not only with the move but with a studio closing down more people are going to be losing their jobs I would think.

From what I read it's only a few people moving with the rest being cut loose.

As I said earlier, it's all speculation. I doubt many at Trion know whats going to happen over the coming weeks while the dust settles down.

It's a lot of changes in a short space of time.

On another note. Far too much happening, i'm making serious posts and it's making my brain hurt.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 01:51 PM
The Defiance time got "obliterated" - http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192495/New_layoffs_reach_Trion.php

So there's really not anyone left to move. And now they're gonna throw the DLC at a new team of developers. They're probably more competent than what got laid off, but it's not like they're gonna be picking up where the other team left of, it's gonna take months before they are ready to even talk about release dates.

That layoff was back in May.

Awesome Jeff
08-08-2013, 01:53 PM
No it wasn't, I'm reading it now, so it happened now!

squidgod2000
08-08-2013, 01:55 PM
they were in San Diego so they could hire talent from SOE.

Well there's the problem. No wonder Defiance has crashed so hard.

Not surprised they shut down SD. Place must have been a ghost town the past couple months.

brandileigh
08-08-2013, 02:00 PM
I'm excited and freaked out the same time.

Honestly this could all mean nothing other than after the layoffs it was determined they could consolidate into one office building and cut out all those additional expenses of having the san diego office.

EV76
08-08-2013, 02:00 PM
The Defiance time got "obliterated" - http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192495/New_layoffs_reach_Trion.php

So there's really not anyone left to move. And now they're gonna throw the DLC at a new team of developers. They're probably more competent than what got laid off, but it's not like they're gonna be picking up where the other team left of, it's gonna take months
before they are ready to even talk about release dates.

I hear what your saying. It can't be much more affected since it has slowed down since may.

MacDeath
08-08-2013, 02:05 PM
I hear you, hope the workers that trion wants to keep and move from San Diego to redwood make the move. Hopefully trion helps them re-locate. As far as my concerns as a player, I would have to ask if this will create a major slowdown in content development. As staff will be relocated.
IMO, a lot of staff won't be relocated. I've lived in both San Diego AND the Silicon Valley and the price of homes ANYWHERE near Redwood Shores is a LOT higher than in the San Diego area, so most folks would be looking at a HUGE increase in the cost of their house. If they were apartment renters, it's less of a hurdle.

As seen here: http://www.dqnews.com/charts/monthly-charts/ca-city-charts/zipcar.aspx

The average home price in San Diego County in June 2013 was $416,500. The average in San Mateo County was $693,750 in June 2013. And, if you wanted to be close to work... Redwood City, where the Studio is located averaged $810,000 in June 2013.
So people would be looking at adding $300k to $400k to their mortage or take on a VERY long commute.

Sanguinesun
08-08-2013, 02:05 PM
I hear what your saying. It can't be much more affected since it has slowed down since may.

They were given 60 day notices in May, they actually didnt leave until July technically.

squidgod2000
08-08-2013, 02:06 PM
I'm excited and freaked out the same time.

Honestly this could all mean nothing other than after the layoffs it was determined they could consolidate into one office building and cut out all those additional expenses of having the san diego office.

That's basically what it was. The catch, however, is whether or not they replace people who don't want to move their families from San Diego to Redwood. Could be more reduction via attrition and Defiance could be to Trion what Vanguard was/is to SoE--something your devs can mess around with when they're not working on something important.

Phaius
08-08-2013, 02:06 PM
This really makes sense to me because have you ever tried managing things with other people long distance? It's a pain in the ***. But other than that, I expect it's so much easier to just handle operations on their two big titles with everything under the same roof. Feels a bit like Defiance was a ship that started to drift away from its dock. I'm remaining pretty positive over this because it sounds like Mr. Hartsman's return is excellent news.

Soren
08-08-2013, 02:08 PM
Ok, I don't know the guy and I didn't want to come off as bashing the game. Dahanese, I trust you and if you say hes good people then that's good enough for me.

Short version: Hartsman has been around at Trion for a really long time prior to leaving back in January and then coming back now.

Longer version: He was the Executive Producer/Creative Director/Head Honcho/something like that of RIFT and he was pretty damn awesome. He helped lead the team to make major improvements to Chocolate Rift over the span of Rift's first year and then some, only to go silent shortly after Storm Legion's announcement and then step down from Trion in January of this year. A lot of people were sad to see him go, but he handed the reins over to a really awesome guy (Daglar) before he left. Prior to working with Trion he was the lead guy behind Everquest 2 and also helped with a few Everquest expansions prior to that. He's a pretty well known guy amongst the MMO industry, and he's overall been a very passionate and non-PR-talk kind of guy. And it's super surprising that he would come back to Trion as the CEO less than 7 months after leaving. So I imagine he's going to pull off some really great things in the future to help Trion get back on track.

ten4
08-08-2013, 02:28 PM
Well, this is great. If this game continues to operate by xmas, call me surprised. I severely doubt the company (or what ever is left of it) is going to pay to move all those employees; some might make the transition if they are deemed good enough to continue having a job and can afford the extreme costs of living in Redwood but I expect most will not.

And I doubt they are going to hire people, you need profits for that. Plus training new devs aint going to be cheap nor quick.

If ANYONE here thinks that this is a good thing then you are in magical pony la la land.

edit. I see that many big names around here just quit or got laid off. They cleaned house once and now they are burning it completely to the ground.

Taaltos
08-08-2013, 02:35 PM
LMAO! If you think Trion is folding, you're nuts. They're still mostly in the black, but their restructuring with a brilliant new MMO born developer as CEO to get even more in the black and to right some of the floundering IP's.

Sanguinesun
08-08-2013, 02:41 PM
LMAO! If you think Trion is folding, you're nuts. They're still mostly in the black, but their restructuring with a brilliant new MMO born developer as CEO to get even more in the black and to right some of the floundering IP's.


Indeed, shuttering the SD office will save them resources on multiple fronts. However, I think it is healthy to remain skeptical with regards to things on some levels until we start to see a meaningful reversal of the decline of for example this game or the company otherwise. Though I also think it we may need to prepare that there may come an eventuality of Defiance being culled from their inventory if even after this transition it is unable to translated to a sustainable revenue stream. I could also see them using other possibilities as an exit strategy to keep the IP in their inventory(such as a conversion to SP... though doubtful).

MstrJedi_Kyle
08-08-2013, 02:42 PM
So, DLC in September? I kid I kid.... Kinda...

IAMVILELENT
08-08-2013, 02:43 PM
So DLC End of September I take it?

IAMVILELENT
08-08-2013, 02:44 PM
So, DLC in September? I kid I kid.... Kinda...

Lol my thoughts exactly.

MacDeath
08-08-2013, 02:53 PM
So, DLC in September? I kid I kid.... Kinda...
Stay tuned...

MstrJedi_Kyle
08-08-2013, 02:56 PM
Stay tuned...

Well now that's depressing...

Notturno
08-08-2013, 03:00 PM
There's a very high likelihood Trion is struggling as a company right now, both financially and structurally. You can tell they recognize this by all of the recent changes that have occurred; staff are communicating way more frequently, people are being let go, and they are shutting down an entire facility to save resources. This is bad because it means Trion is not in a good place financially, which translates into a huge amount of risk when it comes to keeping this game around, as well as seeing those DLC updates. However, this is good because they are trying to trim costs and seem to be working very hard at improving; bringing back Hartsman is great, their company thrived under his leadership.

Just some other general observations from an outsider:
We saw two people who have publicly acknowledged they have been let go or shifted jobs. I think based on the relocation from San Diego to Redwood, we're going to see more people gone based on not wanting to relocate, or simply not having a position at Trion anymore.
The costs of running two facilities were likely placing unnecessary financial stress on Trion. This is likely going to be a major cost saving measure for them. This is good because Defiance's operating costs go down, thus making it easier to generate profit from its operation.
If dahanese and OverloadUT are in the same building as the Defiance developers, I think it's very likely we will see better communication since they can talk to developers in person. That means more information for us, and probably faster.
There's two possible outcomes of this move. The first, and more optimistic one, is that Trion can apply their flexible job description to their developers. This would mean we could see some flexible developers who can work on both RIFT and Defiance, which may get us updates faster. The more pessimistic outcome is that Trion can see Defiance is not successful, and are preparing for the eventual closure of the game.

Ultimately, I think for the time being this is a good sign. Hartsman is a good influence at Trion, based on how well RIFT did under him. It's great to see Trion recognizing they have had some performance issues and seem to be rapidly iterating on solutions to them. However, long term I can see this spelling bad news for this game. We'll have to wait and see.

Soren
08-08-2013, 03:01 PM
So, DLC in September? I kid I kid.... Kinda...


Honestly it would be really nice if they just address this up front in the livestream tomorrow. 'cause a lot of people will be wondering if this move will affect the DLC or not, I imagine. Though after reading up on how ridiculous the certification process can be for some games (ie: Skyrim's DLC took around 6+ months to finally get certified and released on the PS3, and that's 6+ months AFTER the first DLC was already certified and released on the 360), I wouldn't be surprised if they really are waiting on the certification stuff to finish up... especially since they want to release it at the same time on all platforms.

Notturno
08-08-2013, 03:03 PM
Honestly it would be really nice if they just address this up front in the livestream tomorrow. 'cause a lot of people will be wondering if this move will affect the DLC or not, I imagine. Though after reading up on how ridiculous the certification process can be for some games (ie: Skyrim's DLC took around 6+ months to finally get certified and released on the PS3, and that's 6+ months AFTER the first DLC was already certified and released on the 360).

It sounds like the DLC is "done," but they are waiting on certification. Plus, I do not think Trion is immediately shuttering their San Diego office, it will likely take some time. I doubt the first DLC release date will be impacted by this at all, but the next one will likely have some sort of delay since Trion will have to spend some time relocating staff.

cusman
08-08-2013, 03:04 PM
Next-Gen is predicted to shut down even more studios than the current gen.

The future looks bright for
* High-cost AAA games (CoD, Halo, Battlefield, GTA, etc) that manage to find that bulky audience
* Low-cost indie type games that manage to find their niche audiences

The future looks very grim for anything in between
* This is where Defiance and every other game from TRION falls

Valethar
08-08-2013, 03:13 PM
He went to work for EA. Anyone want to start a pool on when they give him a pink slip?

squidgod2000
08-08-2013, 03:15 PM
So, DLC in September? I kid I kid.... Kinda...

Actually, judging by past dev comments, the DLC patch is being certified right now. The real issue will be DLC bug fixes.

Soren
08-08-2013, 03:15 PM
Next-Gen is predicted to shut down even more studios than the current gen.

The future looks bright for
* High-cost AAA games (CoD, Halo, Battlefield, GTA, etc) that manage to find that bulky audience
* Low-cost indie type games that manage to find their niche audiences

The future looks very grim for anything in between
* This is where Defiance and every other game from TRION falls

The thing is, Trion now has a CEO who realizes that "the current gaming model is fundamentally broken" (words said (or at least typed out) by Hartsman himself) (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/22/hartsman-the-traditional-aaa-style-of-development-and-distribu/). So I think he will attempt to make changes to curb that and get Trion out of that bad track, and I think he could be the guy to really help Trion become way more successful. Especially because he was the guy who helped bring us (and was then heavily involved with improving) Trion's flagship game, Rift. So I imagine he very well knows what he's doing as a former lead game developer for one of Trion's own products.

A s0t
08-08-2013, 03:26 PM
So where is trion worlds global headquarters, and how many offices do they have?

thinice
08-08-2013, 03:35 PM
Next-Gen is predicted to shut down even more studios than the current gen.

The future looks bright for
* High-cost AAA games (CoD, Halo, Battlefield, GTA, etc) that manage to find that bulky audience
* Low-cost indie type games that manage to find their niche audiences

The future looks very grim for anything in between
* This is where Defiance and every other game from TRION falls

Pretty sure the cost of 50 million would make Rift a AAA game anywhere and it shows with the care the dev team takes with not just the game but the community. Defiance...the game is fun to play but their execution with the patches and anything technical really made them look like amateurs and I think that has more to do with the EX executive producers handling of his crew.

If anyone can right that ship it will be Scott Hartsman.

Valethar
08-08-2013, 03:39 PM
So where is trion worlds global headquarters, and how many offices do they have?

The Redwood office is their home base. I'm not sure how many different offices they have, I think SD was just the Defiance team, with Rift running out of Redwood, and I'm guessing the EoN team also being based there as well.

TheOz
08-08-2013, 03:41 PM
So where is trion worlds global headquarters, and how many offices do they have?
One too many - apparently.

Valethar
08-08-2013, 03:42 PM
Pretty sure the cost of 50 million would make Rift a AAA game anywhere

If cost alone is what constitutes 'AAA' in a title, there have been a lot of expensive duds in recent years.

thinice
08-08-2013, 03:46 PM
There's a very high likelihood Trion is struggling as a company right now, both financially and structurally.


I would say they have been struggling structurally with Defiance. Speculation on my part but Nathan Richardson seems to have left that whole crew in shambles. Poor responses to fixes, poor responses in Alpha testing. Someone has to take the blame for that fiasco. An otherwise good game that was let down by poor execution.

Financially, more speculation from what I have heard and read, Rift's f2p launch was very successful. Before that Rift was carrying the whole company and it seems to still be doing that even more so now. Makes sense to cut their losses in San Diego and consolidate everything in Redwood with a group that knows what they are doing. Smart move.

thinice
08-08-2013, 03:47 PM
If cost alone is what constitutes 'AAA' in a title, there have been a lot of expensive duds in recent years.

And there have been some AAA duds in very recent times.

A s0t
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
And there have been some AAA duds in very recent times.halo cod gow
hopefully star citizen wont be a dud

Carnak
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Sad that Trion needs to do things like this, but good that they're doing what needs to be done.

I still have my fingers crossed that they can whip Defiance into shape and look forward to playing when the DLC hits.

ralisti
08-08-2013, 03:59 PM
This does not surprise me at all. The San Diego office, judging by its track record with Defiance, was full of utterly incompetent management prone to making the worst possible decisions. Restructuring like this will allow, hopefully, competent management to keep Defiance under the microscope and prevent future idiotic decisions.

It also allows the tapping of better developers to peer review code to, again hopefully, prevent bug ridden and shoddy code from being pushed to production.

Given that Trion San Diego was following the path well travelled, building a game for 10 year old specifications and not doing anything overly original, their failure shows that the office there was a total liability.

The main issue is that Trion San Diego has so damaged Trion's reputation as a whole, I am not sure they can save Defiance. The amount of time that it will take to not only fix the game but repair the damage done, combined with the new consoles on the horizon and being woefully simplistic for many PC gamers, is likely to mean the death for the game as people will have moved on.

Rasczak
08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
This does not surprise me at all. The San Diego office, judging by its track record with Defiance, was full of utterly incompetent management prone to making the worst possible decisions. Restructuring like this will allow, hopefully, competent management to keep Defiance under the microscope and prevent future idiotic decisions.

It also allows the tapping of better developers to peer review code to, again hopefully, prevent bug ridden and shoddy code from being pushed to production.

Given that Trion San Diego was following the path well travelled, building a game for 10 year old specifications and not doing anything overly original, their failure shows that the office there was a total liability.

The main issue is that Trion San Diego has so damaged Trion's reputation as a whole, I am not sure they can save Defiance. The amount of time that it will take to not only fix the game but repair the damage done, combined with the new consoles on the horizon and being woefully simplistic for many PC gamers, is likely to mean the death for the game as people will have moved on.


It is a possibility in the end that Trion Worlds would want to cut its loses on Defiance once the bean counters are done assessing the overall investment needed to fix the game, market it again, and so forth. However, Defiance the game was also 50% funded by Syfy for development, so Trion Worlds is not the sole financial investor of the game. Also, the show has a Season 2 for June 2014, and it is quite possible that the contract with Syfy (coupled with their 50% pre-launch development funding) doesn't simply allow Trion Worlds to shut it down so easily.

Trion Worlds could very much be stuck with Defiance for a bit, yet.

Azimov
08-08-2013, 04:13 PM
It wasn't massive layoffs, they're moving the studio to the Redwood City studio, which is a smart move in my opinion.

The problem there is that even though the Studio may move, some people on that team will not. Imagine if you were told at short notice you job was moving that distance.

Valethar
08-08-2013, 04:15 PM
It is a possibility in the end that Trion Worlds would want to cut its loses on Defiance once the bean counters are done assessing the overall investment needed to fix the game, market it again, and so forth. However, Defiance the game was also 50% funded by Syfy for development, so Trion Worlds is not the sole financial investor of the game. Also, the show has a Season 2 for June 2014, and it is quite possible that the contract with Syfy (coupled with their 50% pre-launch development funding) doesn't simply allow Trion Worlds to shut it down so easily.

Trion Worlds could very much be stuck with Defiance for a bit, yet.

They also stated early on, when people doubted the show itself would last the whole first season, much less get a second one, that the game was not tied to the show and that Trion had the resources and the commitment to keep the game going regardless of the fate of the TV series.

I suppose we're just going to have to see what happens, once they get around to spin controlling whatever information they're going to release about what happened in SD, etc....

Phaius
08-08-2013, 04:22 PM
They also stated early on, when people doubted the show itself would last the whole first season, much less get a second one, that the game was not tied to the show and that Trion had the resources and the commitment to keep the game going regardless of the fate of the TV series.

I suppose we're just going to have to see what happens, once they get around to spin controlling whatever information they're going to release about what happened in SD, etc....

I always doubt when I hear players telling of impeding doom and near future shut down of any MMO. I've heard it with so many, including even sandboxes like Second Life and yet, it fails to pan out. Personally, I'm just going to wait and see what happens. I'm not an insider at the company so I can't claim to know what will happen.

However, you (general you) might find this interesting. Kevin Murphy of SyFy talks a bit about the game which says they have a strong and keen interest in keeping the game going, in terms of SyFy's interest:

http://youtu.be/bSuIsuUzOno

WhiteCell
08-08-2013, 04:29 PM
Well that was unexpected...

Only if you were oblivious to Defiance's poor sales, terrible player retention rate, and horrid reduced pricing.

This was completely expected. Defiance was a major flop for Trion and it was apparent a couple of days post launch when players stopped logging in because the game was missing standard MMO features and has no substance to it.

Remember shortly after launch Trion literally fired nearly all major managers of of Defiance's team due to lack of content and quality of content.

Harnace
08-08-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm quite happy about this, the san diego studio had no idea how to run a MMO properly. The redwood studio have done some amazing things on Rift so them working on Defiance is a huge improvement. I forsee a bright future for this game now!

Iceberg
08-08-2013, 04:32 PM
Only if you were oblivious to Defiance's poor sales, terrible player retention rate, and horrid reduced pricing.

This was completely expected. Defiance was a major flop for Trion and it was apparent a couple of days post launch when players stopped logging in because the game was missing standard MMO features and has no substance to it.

sigh, you don't think I know this? tell ya what, next time I will use hashtag #sarcasm :P

Yewa
08-08-2013, 04:41 PM
Dahanese, is there any possibility to address this subject on tomorrow's livestream?

Did Trion release an official statement about this?

Rasczak
08-08-2013, 04:53 PM
I always doubt when I hear players telling of impeding doom and near future shut down of any MMO. I've heard it with so many, including even sandboxes like Second Life and yet, it fails to pan out. Personally, I'm just going to wait and see what happens. I'm not an insider at the company so I can't claim to know what will happen.

However, you (general you) might find this interesting. Kevin Murphy of SyFy talks a bit about the game which says they have a strong and keen interest in keeping the game going, in terms of SyFy's interest:

http://youtu.be/bSuIsuUzOno

That was part of my point. People have asked about Trion's future interest in maintaining Defiance. My point was: that might not matter, as even IF they would want to cut loses, Syfy helped fund the pre-launch development and marketed the game as a part of the Defiance experience (show + game). Depending on the contract, Defiance the game might need Syfy's approval to close down. Which I'm not sure Syfy would give just yet. Did they recoup their 50% investment on the game yet?

The was a rhetorical question.

In the end, Defiance is Syfy's property. There's no doubt in my mind that, as with any license parrtnership, they have a say in certain aspects of the game, but Trion has no say in any aspect of the show.

Valethar
08-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Did Trion release an official statement about this?

Nothing I've seen yet, beyond the news stories 'confirmed' by Trion, and a quote from an alleged internal email by Hartsman.

Elizabeth stated something was coming, but I don't think anyone has a firm ETA on when.

Valethar
08-08-2013, 04:58 PM
In the end, Defiance is Syfy's property. There's no doubt in my mind that, as with any license parrtnership, they have a say in certain aspects of the game, but Trion has no say in any aspect of the show.

Actually, that was addressed as well, early on. They both have input when it comes to crossover material, but neither one has anything to do with the production of the other project beyond that.

ten4
08-08-2013, 04:58 PM
Dahanese, is there any possibility to address this subject on tomorrow's livestream?

Did Trion release an official statement about this?

Trion did not say anything the last time they cleaned house so don't be surprised if they say nothing this time nor in the future. It is clear, they are in trouble but admitting that to us is a sign of defeat. Plus we are not worthy of the truth.

I do know that the odds they release 5x real DLCs will more than likely never happen now and defiance's future is looking bleak.

Rasczak
08-08-2013, 05:02 PM
Dahanese, is there any possibility to address this subject on tomorrow's livestream?

Did Trion release an official statement about this?

Technically. Though not on their website yet, they did make an official statement to PC Gamer: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/08/trion-shuts-down-san-diego-studio/

Spiltmilk
08-08-2013, 05:04 PM
I'll be honest, i'm starting to get a little bit worried (which is not like me at all) about the future of those games and this.

All of this is incredibly similar to how Realtime Worlds crumbled.

Yeah, but from what I am reading so far, at least we won't get something like Defiance Reloaded lol.

Rasczak
08-08-2013, 05:09 PM
Actually, that was addressed as well, early on. They both have input when it comes to crossover material, but neither one has anything to do with the production of the other project beyond that.

I actually have (well had) two friends at Trion development. But, really, that was a confusing post on my part. I was still referring to the points of: depending on clauses, Syfy could very well have a say in the closing or not of Defiance as long as they have not yet recouped their 50% game development investment (unless, a likely part of such a clause, Trion could absorb recouping them on their own post closure).

Trion, however, has no investment in Defiance outside of the 50% game development on their end (and continued development post-launch). They would, in turn, have no say on the life span of the show.

Gomly
08-08-2013, 05:24 PM
Yeah, but from what I am reading so far, at least we won't get something like Defiance Reloaded lol.

That made me chuckle.

Ridiculousss
08-08-2013, 05:32 PM
yeah lets work on new game titles, when our current ones are broken to shyt, lets also lay off a bunch of people when we already dont have enough man power to fix anything in the game.

good plan guys, nice one

360_Eelissa
08-08-2013, 05:35 PM
How many Jelly Babies did that compliment cost......


If it's cheap enough I have 2 bags just for you to tell everyone how fantastic I am.

Hell for 2 bags of Jelly Babies I'll tell everyone that for upwards of 4 days.

Notturno
08-08-2013, 05:36 PM
yeah lets work on new game titles, when our current ones are broken to shyt, lets also lay off a bunch of people when we already dont have enough man power to fix anything in the game.

good plan guys, nice one

RTFA. They are closing a studio and relocating staff, we only know of two people who are actually gone from Trion. End of Nations has been in development for a while, ArcheAge is something they are localizing and publishing. The only impact this has on Defiance is they are centralizing all of the Trion team in one location for better management. If anything, this is positive because the historically high quality RIFT management can be replicated at the same location with Hartsman back at the helm of the company.

A s0t
08-08-2013, 05:38 PM
I actually have (well had) two friends at Trion development.did they crash on your couch? have a beer with you? borrow 10 bucks? or stopped by for a bar-b-que? if the answer is no: then they are not your friends, they are just strangers from the interwebz

waiting for face book users to figure this fact out

marshy
08-08-2013, 05:42 PM
We all know where this is going don't we:confused:

Defiance makes little to 0 cash, so why would trion continue to fund the running cost of the game?
Tell me how big is the player base on all 3 platforms?

August Barkley
08-08-2013, 05:46 PM
Stay positive, guys. Everything will be OK! :)

A s0t
08-08-2013, 05:46 PM
We all know where this is going don't we:confused:

Defiance makes little to 0 cash, so why would trion continue to fund the running cost of the game?
Tell me how big is the player base on all 3 platforms?
dont worry when the dlc drops and every one makes a new character and have to REBUY inventory slots they will be raking in the bits and 400 bits for color changes for the light sabre, dont know if vehicles bought with bits carry over but highly doubt it

nitroz76
08-08-2013, 05:47 PM
So, since he is moving the studio. Can we expect another delay?

marshy
08-08-2013, 05:49 PM
dont worry when the dlc drops and every one makes a new character and have to REBUY inventory slots they will be raking in the bits and 400 bits for color changes for the light sabre, dont know if vehicles bought with bits carry over but highly doubt it

You forgot albinos with light sabres:D

Valethar
08-08-2013, 05:50 PM
dont worry when the dlc drops and every one makes a new character and have to REBUY inventory slots they will be raking in the bits and 400 bits for color changes for the light sabre, dont know if vehicles bought with bits carry over but highly doubt it

Vehicles carry over to all characters, if bought on the Bit store. If I'm not mistaken, outfits do as well.

Personally, I'm not buying any inventory slots until A) they're account wide, and B) the pricing is adjusted so that buying the bigger packages has a better cost ratio.

marshy
08-08-2013, 05:53 PM
So, since he is moving the studio. Can we expect another delay?

That post will come in the next week or too
Trion post due to our defiance studio being closed down/ moved the DLC will not be released in August, but sometime in the future

A s0t
08-08-2013, 05:57 PM
So, since he is moving the studio. Can we expect another delay?it still gonna take them 4 days to fix the new bugs for the dlc, so they should have dlc first then **** canned everybody, then move their crap to new office then fix 25% of the bugs in the new patch

Valethar
08-08-2013, 06:22 PM
That post will come in the next week or too
Trion post due to our defiance studio being closed down/ moved the DLC will not be released in August, but sometime in the future

They said the DLC would be released in August. They never specified which year that particular August would be in.

/innocence

Wraieth
08-08-2013, 06:27 PM
This will be just like everything else that has happened with trion. The only real news we will get will come from 3rd party sources.

They will clam up and say nothing give no real info, And worst of all the loyal players that tried to bucket the water out of this sinking ship for awhile now.

Will all be left in the dark wondering what now. The dlc will be delayed until further notice and the players will again be made to suffer simply for trying to support them.

I have seen the devs and others at trion and others ask for our patience yet give very little reason for us to continue being patient.

Theres been every excuse under the sun given both by die hard fans as defense and those displeased as offense.

But fact is if trion want to keep a good base of players for this game they need to get off their azz and give us information on how this is going to effect the overall development and progress of the game.

The time for half answers and bull **** silence is done. they need to man up or step out. they asked for patience and from many it was given. Now they need to honor that patience with information and a reason to continue to hang on.

As news like this can cause many loyal fans to walk away rather than continue on with such uncertainty,

While I understand the intimate of inner working for the company need to remain private, That dosnt mean they cant inform their player base what the hell is happening with game progression and development.

Nor does it mean they should continue to ask for patience and give no reason for their player base to give it.

Daholic
08-08-2013, 06:54 PM
This will be just like everything else that has happened with trion. The only real news we will get will come from 3rd party sources.

They will clam up and say nothing give no real info, And worst of all the loyal players that tried to bucket the water out of this sinking ship for awhile now.

Will all be left in the dark wondering what now. The dlc will be delayed until further notice and the players will again be made to suffer simply for trying to support them.

I have seen the devs and others at trion and others ask for our patience yet give very little reason for us to continue being patient.

Theres been every excuse under the sun given both by die hard fans as defense and those displeased as offense.

But fact is if trion want to keep a good base of players for this game they need to get off their azz and give us information on how this is going to effect the overall development and progress of the game.

The time for half answers and bull **** silence is done. they need to man up or step out. they asked for patience and from many it was given. Now they need to honor that patience with information and a reason to continue to hang on.

As news like this can cause many loyal fans to walk away rather than continue on with such uncertainty,

While I understand the intimate of inner working for the company need to remain private, That dosnt mean they cant inform their player base what the hell is happening with game progression and development.

Nor does it mean they should continue to ask for patience and give no reason for their player base to give it.

QFT!!!

The patience has ended for me. I no longer wonder why they cant just simply come to the forums and provide any information, actually I find it more hilarious that anything. This is not a profitable business model to keep your fans in the dark. Like someone said in that twitter link, you can release a shoddy product, then expect the fan to wait it out while they get it sorted.

I don't know whats more funny, the fact that even your more intelligent, thoughtful, well thought out poster saw the failure in this product, or the trolls who saw this coming.

Nefarious
08-08-2013, 07:08 PM
Can someone make some cliff notes on what all this means.

A s0t
08-08-2013, 07:14 PM
Can someone make some cliff notes on what all this means.sledge baled offices closed everything else is panic about dlc new mods are talking more, but not saying anything about anything

Valethar
08-08-2013, 07:20 PM
sledge baled offices closed everything else is panic about dlc new mods are talking more, but not saying anything about anything

Lance (Myll_Erik) is gone too. It was on his Twitter earlier today. The odd thing is he just got a promotion. I guess they'll end up paying out more unemployment and severance now though. :)

A s0t
08-08-2013, 07:26 PM
Lance (Myll_Erik) is gone too. It was on his Twitter earlier today. The odd thing is he just got a promotion. I guess they'll end up paying out more unemployment and severance now though. :)
Him too? the end is near
im gonna go get some deer slugs and deer bait, venison is tasty

Pasha
08-08-2013, 07:31 PM
I see DLC will be delayed for couple more months - or forever. In my 16 years long MMO experience Defiance was the fastest flop by a huge margin - it's just 4 months old and its almost closed already.

P.S. So Rift is going to be subscription-based again?

A s0t
08-08-2013, 07:38 PM
Stay positive, guys. Everything will be OK! :)
Andrews: Once again, this is rumor control, here are the facts. At 0800 hours, prisoner Murphy, through carelessness on his part, was found dead in vent shaft 17. He seems to have been sucked into a ventilator fan. At about 2100 hours, prisoner Golic reappeared in a deranged state. Prisoners Boggs and Rains are missing. There seems to be a good chance that they have met with foul play at the hands of prisoner Golic. We need to organize and send out a search party; volunteers will be appreciated. I think it's fair to say that our smoothly running facility has suddenly developed a few problems. I can only hope we are all able to pull together over the next few days until the rescue team arrives for Lieutenant Ripley.
Ripley: [runs into the room, out of breath and panicking] It's here! It got Clemens!
Andrews: [loses his temper] Stop this raving at once! Stop it!
Ripley: I'm telling you, it's here!
Andrews: Aaron, get that foolish woman back to the infirmary!
[The alien reaches down from an overhead airduct and pulls Andrews into the airshaft as he screams]

yeah every thing is just fine

WARDUKE
08-08-2013, 07:49 PM
All I know is that this news will make Friday's live stream fun to watch. I better get to the store tomorrow, as I am out of popcorn.

thinice
08-08-2013, 07:51 PM
I see DLC will be delayed for couple more months - or forever. In my 16 years long MMO experience Defiance was the fastest flop by a huge margin - it's just 4 months old and its almost closed already.

P.S. So Rift is going to be subscription-based again?

In your 16 years have you waited until a game actually does fold before you say that or are you always quick with a knee jerk reaction?
Why would Rift go back to sub when they are making more money as f2p?

ten4
08-08-2013, 07:51 PM
All I know is that this news will make Friday's live stream fun to watch. I better get to the store tomorrow, as I am out of popcorn.

They won't say nothing about this at all...count on it.

Wraieth
08-08-2013, 07:58 PM
They won't say nothing about this at all...count on it.

Exactly and its sad as my post on page 11 of this thread states they keep asking us to have patience yet give little to no reason for us to do so anymore.

With this news hitting us now theres even less reason than we had before. Yet they say nothing and expect the same.

WARDUKE
08-08-2013, 08:06 PM
I suggest everyone boycott the random chit chat on twitch and just continue to copy/paste the same question about WTF is going on.

Wraieth
08-08-2013, 08:10 PM
As posted by dahanese in another thread.


We have threads on these topics already - I invite you to join them! I'll also add that we're very much alive and kicking. I'll even go as far as to make a Monty Python joke.

News to come soon.

In the mean time, shutting this thread to keep the conversation consolidated

Do you realize how many times in the last 4 months we have heard coming soon? Only soon never comes. Yes your a lot more active on forums yet say nothing.

And you guys are very much alive and kicking that is such a true answer. For here lately it seems to a lot of people like trion has went out of their way to kick players in the teeth.

You ask for patience yet give no real info to help us continue to give it. Now the office has closed things are being moved around , Still no dlc dates no info on how this effects game progression or development. no real info at all other than coming soon and we closed this thread for this reason.

You want patience and understanding from us ? Stop kicking us in the teeth and let us know what to expect and why we should be patient.

Because for a lot of people myself included trions say so dosnt realy hold up anymore. We want to hold on we want to support you guys . But that dosnt mean it dosnt have limits. We need real information real interactions and real reasons to trust you guys again.

Or at the very least we need you to care enough about us players to stop patronizing us with half truths and non answers.

Rasczak
08-08-2013, 09:15 PM
As posted by dahanese in another thread.


We have threads on these topics already - I invite you to join them! I'll also add that we're very much alive and kicking. I'll even go as far as to make a Monty Python joke.

News to come soon.

In the mean time, shutting this thread to keep the conversation consolidated

Do you realize how many times in the last 4 months we have heard coming soon? Only soon never comes. Yes your a lot more active on forums yet say nothing.

And you guys are very much alive and kicking that is such a true answer. For here lately it seems to a lot of people like trion has went out of their way to kick players in the teeth.

You ask for patience yet give no real info to help us continue to give it. Now the office has closed things are being moved around , Still no dlc dates no info on how this effects game progression or development. no real info at all other than coming soon and we closed this thread for this reason.

You want patience and understanding from us ? Stop kicking us in the teeth and let us know what to expect and why we should be patient.

Because for a lot of people myself included trions say so dosnt realy hold up anymore. We want to hold on we want to support you guys . But that dosnt mean it dosnt have limits. We need real information real interactions and real reasons to trust you guys again.

Or at the very least we need you to care enough about us players to stop patronizing us with half truths and non answers.


Sadly, same story and dance, different red name. Nothing new here. This one just shows up and says it more often.

It's time for concrete dates and information to the player base (at least what seems to be left of it). The ship of "be patient" and "information coming soon" sailed back in mid-July.

Valaska
08-08-2013, 10:06 PM
In the very least, this game has outlasted APB's original launch... It -IS- also a better game (with a crappy character customization though lol) so there's that.

From what I have seen so far though, with these lay offs and restructuring, no good will come of it. It doesn't matter whom is at the helm, when you cut down on your staff resources dedicated to a project and have been WITH that project for sometime, your ability to work on that project will crash. APB Reloaded hasn't put -any- new content out what so ever, they haven't even been able to touch bugs etc because the team had no idea what direction to take ANYTHING, they simply have added guns etc.

With a Developer who simply it saying "I'll be honest with you!" and "You will always hear it straight from me!" without giving us an honest straight answer... Another bad sign.

CyrusKhane
08-08-2013, 10:10 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if they dropped the dlc tomorrow with no announcement and made us all look like *******s?

I know it's not gonna happen, but it would be damn funny.

ralisti
08-08-2013, 10:59 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if they dropped the dlc tomorrow with no announcement and made us all look like *******s?

I know it's not gonna happen, but it would be damn funny.

With all the turmoil, dropping the DLC before things die down would be a horrible decision. That being said, it would not surprise me at all if they dropped the DLC tomorrow and the game was unstable for a week.

TwwiX
08-08-2013, 11:12 PM
I'll be honest, i'm starting to get a little bit worried (which is not like me at all) about the future of those games and this.

All of this is incredibly similar to how Realtime Worlds crumbled.


My thoughts exactly. I just hope that GamersFirst doesn't get the rights to this game too. They've done **** all to improve APB since they acquired the rights to it. All they did is crow bar in a pay to win microtransaction system into the game. They're now selling individual weapons for ridiculous amounts of money. The matchmaking is still broken and the game's infested with all kinds of cheaters.

CyrusKhane
08-08-2013, 11:20 PM
My first day playing APB some guy showed me how to get G1 creds for free.

I contacted G1 and showed them how to patch the hole. Haha

Oberon
08-09-2013, 12:38 AM
Personally I feel like the Season Pass DLC is vaporware. I mean the 1st DLC was suppost to be out just a few weeks after release, but the game was to buggy.

Now it keeps getting pushed further and further and my impression of DLC is that it is slim pickings. The game needs to be able to grab people, make them want to replay another race.....provide some variety and it doesn't. I bow my hat to Hartsman as he had has a very tough road ahead of him with this game.

Lunging Wolf
08-09-2013, 02:19 AM
[Deleted.]

Rasczak
08-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Well, Hartsman is now Trion Worlds' CEO. Very Interesting. That news certainly turned my head, even after bidding a bittersweet farewell to Defiance for now.

These questions immediately come to my mind: Does he have any experience with MMO shooters? And, even if not, is it possible that he'll be bold enough to make Defiance a MMORPS as funding permits anyways? :D Frankly, I certainly hope so.

I know that only time will tell. But I hope that he shakes things up at Trion with unexpected good things.

While I cannot even remotely see the possibility of Defiance being overhauled into an MMORPG, I've always felt the game missed the boat by being an MMOTPS.

The Defiance setting and lore are very interesting. Hell, my tabletop group and I plan to start a new d6 or Savage Worlds game in October using the Defiance setting. The lore, politics, racial/cultural tensions, and characters (even new ones in the Bay area) would have fit so much better in an MMORPG. The Lore could have been better explored and revealed through quests/missions, too, as opposed to having to do it through lackluster data recorders.

They could have kept the action firearm combat using a technique similar to the free targeting combat of Neverwinter, even.

Lollie
09-14-2013, 09:33 AM
I'll be honest, i'm starting to get a little bit worried (which is not like me at all) about the future of those games and this.

All of this is incredibly similar to how Realtime Worlds crumbled.

eeeeee I don't want Trion to crumble, always quite liked them despite the stupid moves they tend to make. I just want them to get their **** together. My bet is they're banking on ArcheAge to be the big money earner...but they'll need to lose the emphasis on pvp all over evereywhere if they're hoping for that success though...my pick however is they'll screw that up and end up like AION in the West (dead because of the pvp everywhere) :(

hey u
09-14-2013, 03:50 PM
I personally freaked out with tears of joy when I heard Chris Lena was replacing Nathan Richardsson

August Barkley
09-14-2013, 04:15 PM
It seems that this guy does not have any influence on the development of Defiance.