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Market
09-11-2013, 10:47 AM
Firstly, I want to make it abundantly clear that I do not in any way work for Trion Worlds, Inc. I am a customer of theirs, and that's as far as the relationship goes.

I am writing this for the benefit of all the people complaining, demanding things, and slandering this company and its employees for what they are doing or not doing. As far as I can see, too many of the people here obviously do not understand what a corporation is and what it does.

The following are some observations of mine, but I need to lead it off with a simple statement. A company is in business to do one thing, and one thing alone. Turn a profit.

That being said, on with the show.

* "Trion doesn't care about it's customers." - This makes me laugh every time I see it. They want this game to be successful, more than any of us could ever dream of. Without it, they lose money. They have staff, time and monetary investments, physical locations that use electricity and generate other bills, as well as the ongoing support of every one of their titles. Without people buying and playing their games, Defiance included, they can't hope to continue. They care about their customers as a whole, not necessarily the whining and fit-pitching of a select few.

* "OMG! They broke/changed/nerfed/otherwise altered something I loved! WTF!" - I'm not having an opinion on this, just copying word for word what it says on the back of the box: "Trion does not ensure continuous or error-free access or availability of any in-game content, feature, or server and may change, modify, disable, suspend, or remove any such content, feature, or server at its sole discretion." The fact of the matter is that this is a constant in many other places than just games. Either accept this or find another hobby.

* "They lied! - This one gets me as well. See the entry above for the answer to most of the things they've said and not delivered upon. We have no contract with them to produce specific things and therefore have no right to demand something mentioned in a video or blog. Mistakes can be made by anyone. Unless they said specifically something would be done in order to sell a product and we, the customer, paid for it with that understanding and turns out to be false, they have no legal responsibility to deliver. (Example: No where did they say "buy the DLC and you'll get a car with a gun on it.) If you have issue with this, again, read the section above this one.

* "Trion doesn't listen to us." - I'm not going to site all of the places that disproves this notion (Dev Tracker), I'm only going to refer back the the first section about Trion not caring about their customers. They do indeed listen to us! However, from what I've seen here since February, they pay much more attention to criticism and complaints that are well thought out and bereft of "hate speech". You can be angry! Several things I've run into in the game tick me off outright. The difference is that I bring my thoughts to their table with a modicum of respect and humility, without the use of nasty language. I've done the same with their Live support and in every case came out happy with the results. I treat the agent with respect and come armed with a bucket of patience, keeping calm and giving them the information they need to assist me. Try this sometime, even out in the real world, and you will find the results to be astounding.

* Opinions vs. Facts - Everyone has opinions. Not many have facts. I've seen several people write about how the game has only gotten worse since release. I also read a bit about how the still unfinished DLC2 is ruining grenades. These would be opinions. The facts are that many things that were going on with the game at release are not an issue anymore or have been greatly reduced. Trion has added more problems to the game with some patches that repaired other issues. They are still working on fixing it. They're still building the second DLC, so everything you've heard about it so far could totally change. We have no first hand knowledge of how it will actually work in the game. Forming an opinion with a lack of hard facts is something to be avoided in life. Leaving your opinions at the door and feeding them nothing but facts will make the work significantly easier. Both sides win in this scenario.

If you want the game to improve, the above should be taken into consideration with everything you add to
conversations here. If you are simply venting frustration and anger over this game, it's my opinion you need to get out more.

Yes, the problems exist and they have outright admitted on several occasions that it's not going as well as they would like to see. (again, see the first point) The amount of contact we are getting from them has increased exponentially in the past few months, regardless of typical corporate shake-ups in the form of office closures and lost manpower. I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to the mistakes that have been made, but I am saying that we should give them adequate time to turn things around and not behave like a mob of angry, entitled children.

I know I am going to get a ton of backlash for posting this and it will likely end up getting so rude, insulting and out of reality that it will probably be lost... but I had to anyway. For my own peace of mind. If you have something to say about this, keep it civil. Those who agree with the above, I salute you. Those who disagree..... well.... give it a shot. I'm a big boy, I can handle it.

that is all.

dahanese
09-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Hey guys -

I reopened this thread and I'm going to explain why. First off: this isn't a thread for talk of moderation (only I'm allowed to do that here!)

As I said before, we're working on making the moderation rules lenient. This is a process for my team as well as for you. In this case, I am in favor of the OP sentiment and the conversation (both positive and negative) it can bring. We need to hear this stuff and you guys need to say it.

The only way this thread will be closed is if you start attacking the devs, Trion, or each other. And yes: covert and overt ways of doing this will get you infracted. We've all be on the internet a long time. I know how to skirt forum rules as well as you do. Let's not play that game - please don't be an albatross.

Market
09-11-2013, 03:09 PM
Hey guys -

I reopened this thread and I'm going to explain why. First off: this isn't a thread for talk of moderation (only I'm allowed to do that here!)

As I said before, we're working on making the moderation rules lenient. This is a process for my team as well as for you. In this case, I am in favor of the OP sentiment and the conversation (both positive and negative) it can bring. We need to hear this stuff and you guys need to say it.

The only way this thread will be closed is if you start attacking the devs, Trion, or each other. And yes: covert and overt ways of doing this will get you infracted. We've all be on the internet a long time. I know how to skirt forum rules as well as you do. Let's not play that game - please don't be an albatross.

Much respect, Dahanese! Totally made my day! ;)

August Barkley
09-11-2013, 03:11 PM
Just one word: Opportunism.

jaded
09-11-2013, 03:16 PM
I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to the mistakes that have been made, but I am saying that we should give them adequate time to turn things around and not behave like a mob of angry, entitled children.


It's been five months. People are leaving everyday. How long do you suggest is "adequate time"; and how many people do you think will still be playing then?

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:19 PM
none probably.....since none play now lol

Amack
09-11-2013, 03:24 PM
* "Trion doesn't care about it's customers." - This makes me laugh every time I see it. They want this game to be successful, more than any of us could ever dream of. Without it, they lose money. They have staff, time and monetary investments, physical locations that use electricity and generate other bills, as well as the ongoing support of every one of their titles. Without people buying and playing their games, Defiance included, they can't hope to continue. They care about their customers as a whole, not necessarily the whining and fit-pitching of a select few.

Have you read the 450k scrip thread?


* "OMG! They broke/changed/nerfed/otherwise altered something I loved! WTF!" - I'm not having an opinion on this, just copying word for word what it says on the back of the box: "Trion does not ensure continuous or error-free access or availability of any in-game content, feature, or server and may change, modify, disable, suspend, or remove any such content, feature, or server at its sole discretion." The fact of the matter is that this is a constant in many other places than just games. Either accept this or find another hobby.

Luckily I am new and have yet to experience this one... but I am sure it is coming.


* "They lied! - This one gets me as well. See the entry above for the answer to most of the things they've said and not delivered upon. We have no contract with them to produce specific things and therefore have no right to demand something mentioned in a video or blog. Mistakes can be made by anyone. Unless they said specifically something would be done in order to sell a product and we, the customer, paid for it with that understanding and turns out to be false, they have no legal responsibility to deliver. (Example: No where did they say "buy the DLC and you'll get a car with a gun on it.) If you have issue with this, again, read the section above this one.

I did not purchase the DLC, a company has to earn my money once I spend the initial cost.


* "Trion doesn't listen to us." - I'm not going to site all of the places that disproves this notion (Dev Tracker), I'm only going to refer back the the first section about Trion not caring about their customers. They do indeed listen to us! However, from what I've seen here since February, they pay much more attention to criticism and complaints that are well thought out and bereft of "hate speech". You can be angry! Several things I've run into in the game tick me off outright. The difference is that I bring my thoughts to their table with a modicum of respect and humility, without the use of nasty language. I've done the same with their Live support and in every case came out happy with the results. I treat the agent with respect and come armed with a bucket of patience, keeping calm and giving them the information they need to assist me. Try this sometime, even out in the real world, and you will find the results to be astounding.

Have you read the 450k scrip thread?


* Opinions vs. Facts - Everyone has opinions. Not many have facts. I've seen several people write about how the game has only gotten worse since release. I also read a bit about how the still unfinished DLC2 is ruining grenades. These would be opinions. The facts are that many things that were going on with the game at release are not an issue anymore or have been greatly reduced. Trion has added more problems to the game with some patches that repaired other issues. They are still working on fixing it. They're still building the second DLC, so everything you've heard about it so far could totally change. We have no first hand knowledge of how it will actually work in the game. Forming an opinion with a lack of hard facts is something to be avoided in life. Leaving your opinions at the door and feeding them nothing but facts will make the work significantly easier. Both sides win in this scenario.

So you want us to have facts... and where are these facts supposed to come from? You must be talking about the facts regarding the upcoming grenade changes, right? I will speak for myself here, throwing grenades takes practice and timing, I am getting better each day, yet I have someone telling me I miss all the time... shrug.


Market,

You created a very nice thread, I was appalled when it was immediately closed. Dahanese was correct in re-opening it. I love to be optimistic, I strive for it each day. You need to create another thread with suggestions TO TRION on how to keep optimism in their customers because they are failing and failing badly.

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:27 PM
Trion = liars (episode content, turret, multi arenas etc....), unfair (450k scrip for FREE, but only for some people) and horrible people (closing this thread?? realllllly?? lol, pathetic)

That's 3 things I DO NOT WANT IN ANY COMPANY

Celke
09-11-2013, 03:29 PM
Trion = liars (episode content, turret, multi arenas etc....), unfair (450k scrip for FREE, but only for some people) and horrible people (closing this thread?? realllllly?? lol, pathetic)

That's 3 things I DO NOT WANT IN ANY COMPANY

I just want to point out on the episode content ... there have been but there are no episodes atm so there is no episode content in game atm ;)

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:30 PM
3 data recorders does not equal episode content!!


don't be fooled!!!!!!

Myria
09-11-2013, 03:31 PM
I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to the mistakes that have been made, but I am saying that we should give them adequate time to turn things around and not behave like a mob of angry, entitled children.

When exactly did expecting a product you paid money for to work become childish?

Many of the game's worst problems have been there since Alpha (which was really a closed Beta, but never mind...) and were reported and discussed at length then, yet they went ahead and launched a buggy arsed half baked mess anyway.

It has been downhill ever since.

Just how much time is "adequate"?

Not that I honestly even really care at this point, but personally I think the half life on the whole "give them time!!!1!!!one!!" argument expired quite a while back.

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:32 PM
give them time was on month 3 of horrible lag STILL


now its pathetic

Misfit501
09-11-2013, 03:33 PM
I still love this game. Haven't played it in a minute but still hoping for the best. My only worry is that when I get my PS4 in a couple of months my defiance time will be severely limited unless it's being ported. I am glad to see the new mods being a lot more active around here.

Celke
09-11-2013, 03:33 PM
give them time was on month 3 of horrible lag STILL


now its pathetic

A little oftopic but I am pretty sure your signature pic is against the rules and will probably be deleted :p

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:34 PM
Naaaah its fine im sure

just a naked kitty ****** girl, its fine

PointyShrew
09-11-2013, 03:35 PM
lets play the

"how long will it take to ban me" game

starring:

Naked kitty anime girl!


\Guest appearance by:

The mods (maybe?)

nikra
09-11-2013, 03:40 PM
Trion = liars (episode content, turret, multi arenas etc....), unfair (450k scrip for FREE, but only for some people) and horrible people (closing this thread?? realllllly?? lol, pathetic)

That's 3 things I DO NOT WANT IN ANY COMPANY

Episode content has to be run by syfy, you know the folk who own the universe, the game + ideas for it ans stuff are Trions but the stories have to be oked by syfy. Sure the episode content sucks but i understand why for season one, as for the teams getting closer and stuff im hoping the later dlc's/episodes are actually gamplay/story altering.

I never read/heard any official statement about turrets. Only some game article things and since I rarely read those I have no idea about credibility.

Coop arena's were buggy and once they get to grips with it I hope they are fun.

Trion aren't like EA or treyarch or infinity ward who can push out year upon year of the same crap over and over cause idiot fanboys keep buying it all up so they can afford to ignore us. Their continued success (and so good profit) depends on getting all their problems ironed out. If this game flops they lost a large audience and many are rift players too/interested in their other projects.

And above all people it is just a damned GAME. Stop feeling like someone cut your kids throats in front of you. Walk away for a bit, it is a prime gaming season now, come back in a few months (or not at all).

hey u
09-11-2013, 03:42 PM
I play all the time unless server wont let me on. Just did few arkfalls and no HUGE LAG, NO DISCONNECT AND LOTS OF PEOPLE ON!!!!!! Has been hours and now I'm scared to log off and go do anything else because they are playing sooooooo nice I just hope this lasts the night and I will pull a all night gameplay

Market
09-11-2013, 03:44 PM
It's been five months. People are leaving everyday. How long do you suggest is "adequate time"; and how many people do you think will still be playing then?

It's hard to say what is adequate, if I'm honest. I'm more patient than your average gamer, so I'm willing to give them quite a bit of time in order to get the bugs ironed out. As far as other games in the save vein as this one, several of them took more than six months to get some of the major issues ironed out. I don't want to drop titles here, but I think we all know of at least one major MMO that had game-breaking flaws for more than half a year before they were fixed. Trion is breaking untouched ground with this one, as far as consoles go anyway, so it has to be expected that mistakes are going to be made and problems will arise from them editing the code.

As for how many people? That is hard to say in the game culture we have these days. I certainly hope there are enough to keep it afloat. With so many impatient people buying a game, devouring it (someone here called them game locusts, and I love that person... lol) and moving on to the next one for a week or two until that one is spent (rinse, repeat), it's difficult for *any* game company to keep one game fresh and new enough to hold players interests for much longer than a month.

What I'm looking at with Trion is a comparison to a specific major game company (again, unnamed but we all know who) that couldn't possibly care less about a title unless it sells a half million copies. At least with Trion, I don't feel like my concerns are falling on deaf ears and eyes like the most hated corporation in America... oops, was that too much info? lol

I guess to set an answer to the first part of the question, if there is no forward progress being made by the end of the year and many of the things that have been issues since release are still left unfixed, I'd have to reevaluate my devotion to the game. However, I've been playing it daily without serious problems, so I'm a bit lucky in that regard. I know there are people who still get disconnected frequently, and I used to be one of them. Thankfully, it hasn't happened in a few weeks and I've been playing daily.

As for the second part of it, I don't know how many will still be playing. They're going up against some big releases recently and in the near future. What will really bolster their numbers is if the next DLC is rock solid and mostly absent of issues. I am a realist, and I know the history here, but I am also hopeful that all the civil discussions of what's good and bad are giving them the idea that we want the game to be great, but also won't stick around forever if it's not. After all, a corporation only makes money when their customers are happy and engaged. From what we've seen lately with the increase in chatter, I'd be willing to bet my eyes that they are all quite aware of this.

nikra
09-11-2013, 03:50 PM
Don't you just love the devotion some people have? Making alt accounts just to troll? You all are aware that this company you apparently hate so much still have their hooks in you? Indifference people, that is how you really stick it to them!

Nefarious
09-11-2013, 03:51 PM
I like this game and I like all the changes. As far as nerfing weapons goes, its super funny how the over powered weapons get nerfed and then ppl cry because that's all they used.

NameInViolation
09-11-2013, 03:51 PM
what alt account??

Im a new player, just unhappy is all!!

hey u
09-11-2013, 03:53 PM
When this game goes week+ with no lag and is working people will come back and check it out most likely just to see if Trion fixed the lag issue I would think and with that said if the game runs as it should I would think they would stay and play yelling out FINALLY

Samhael
09-11-2013, 03:58 PM
I like this game, but I'm finding it harder to login each time. Lack of guildies to run with and not enough variance of activities to participate in. The game has potential. I'm reminded of Asheron's Call 2. AC2 shut down a few months after their first xpac. It was probably one of the best games running at that time...that no one played.

The game launched with lag and serious chat issues. M$ gun servers couldn't handle the load. Fun features were nerfed for the sake of longterm balance without adjusting other areas of gameplay. Lastly Turbine purchased the right of AC2 from M$ requiring account migrations. Players didn't migrate accounts.

I fear this game is headed in that direction. Not an account migration, but ftp with price point changes players won't support.

Xaearth
09-11-2013, 04:12 PM
Lots of stuff to reply to and I kinda jumped around when I was doing it, so if it doesn't make sense just try and read each point by itself... that might work. Walls of text and headaches don't mix but I'm going with it anyways. :o


* "Trion doesn't care about it's customers." - This makes me laugh every time I see it. They want this game to be successful, more than any of us could ever dream of. Without it, they lose money. They have staff, time and monetary investments, physical locations that use electricity and generate other bills, as well as the ongoing support of every one of their titles. Without people buying and playing their games, Defiance included, they can't hope to continue. They care about their customers as a whole, not necessarily the whining and fit-pitching of a select few.

While I wouldn't exactly say "Trion doesn't care about it's customers.", it's also very hard to deny that they are pushing much harder to bring in new players than they are for keeping old ones. Many people have even voiced concerns that they feel they are being pushed away. That cannot be too good from a business standpoint.


* "OMG! They broke/changed/nerfed/otherwise altered something I loved! WTF!" - I'm not having an opinion on this, just copying word for word what it says on the back of the box: "Trion does not ensure continuous or error-free access or availability of any in-game content, feature, or server and may change, modify, disable, suspend, or remove any such content, feature, or server at its sole discretion." The fact of the matter is that this is a constant in many other places than just games. Either accept this or find another hobby.

I've said this before and I'll say it again:
My biggest problem with such changes is very simple. More times than not, these changes have shown a very distinct lack of foresight and/or logical thought process. It's those changes that make you stare at the screen dumbfounded and think "What the hell are these people thinking?".

Case in point, the latest fiasco with the Thorn Liro vendor and the reimbursements. Anyone that argues that they couldn't have handled the situation better is just plain wrong. Sure they could've done it worse too, but the path they took made it look like they made a decision without thinking through the consequences and had to rush out a band-aid afterwards. That is bad for business, and it is quite simply unacceptable that this blind-leading-the-blind approach to game changes still persists.


* "They lied! - This one gets me as well. See the entry above for the answer to most of the things they've said and not delivered upon. We have no contract with them to produce specific things and therefore have no right to demand something mentioned in a video or blog. Mistakes can be made by anyone. Unless they said specifically something would be done in order to sell a product and we, the customer, paid for it with that understanding and turns out to be false, they have no legal responsibility to deliver. (Example: No where did they say "buy the DLC and you'll get a car with a gun on it.) If you have issue with this, again, read the section above this one.

I do not believe I've ever stated that the devs have lied to us.
I have stated numerous times that they have made mistakes, and even failed. Failure to follow through on their design intentions is as good as lying to some people. I might not see it that way, but I'm not going to fault others for feeling slighted in the matter.

This does go to a deeper problem though. Failure is, of course, an option. But it is seldom a good one from a business standpoint. And there are myriad "features" of Defiance that could only be described by the word failure, not the least of which are the horribly designed social aspects (chat and for the longest time voice-comms - An open mic with no option for push-to-talk that defaults to on with no indication that you're broadcasting whether you're using a headset or have a mic integrated to your web-cam or audio card is - or was - UNACCEPTABLE.).


* "Trion doesn't listen to us." - I'm not going to site all of the places that disproves this notion (Dev Tracker), I'm only going to refer back the the first section about Trion not caring about their customers. They do indeed listen to us! However, from what I've seen here since February, they pay much more attention to criticism and complaints that are well thought out and bereft of "hate speech". You can be angry! Several things I've run into in the game tick me off outright. The difference is that I bring my thoughts to their table with a modicum of respect and humility, without the use of nasty language. I've done the same with their Live support and in every case came out happy with the results. I treat the agent with respect and come armed with a bucket of patience, keeping calm and giving them the information they need to assist me. Try this sometime, even out in the real world, and you will find the results to be astounding.

We still have a horrible chat system and an inflexible UI. Sure they're listening about it, but the sounds aren't making any noticeable positive progress. That's a real problem.


* Opinions vs. Facts - Everyone has opinions. Not many have facts. I've seen several people write about how the game has only gotten worse since release. I also read a bit about how the still unfinished DLC2 is ruining grenades. These would be opinions. The facts are that many things that were going on with the game at release are not an issue anymore or have been greatly reduced. Trion has added more problems to the game with some patches that repaired other issues. They are still working on fixing it. They're still building the second DLC, so everything you've heard about it so far could totally change. We have no first hand knowledge of how it will actually work in the game. Forming an opinion with a lack of hard facts is something to be avoided in life. Leaving your opinions at the door and feeding them nothing but facts will make the work significantly easier. Both sides win in this scenario.

Opinions and facts...
Fact: They've made mistakes. - Unless you want to argue that everything wrong with Defiance is and has always been intentional...

Fact: The only person from Trion's end I can recall admitting to having made mistakes publicly was the Ex-Executive Producer who summarily got thrown under the bus with his now viewed as wildly fantasy-inspired blog posts.

I can respect a development team that acknowledges their shortcomings and seeks to improve them, but if they don't "own up" to those shortcomings, I have no way of knowing that they recognize and intend to address the problem, and thus have no reason to believe things will improve.


Yes, the problems exist and they have outright admitted on several occasions that it's not going as well as they would like to see. (again, see the first point) The amount of contact we are getting from them has increased exponentially in the past few months, regardless of typical corporate shake-ups in the form of office closures and lost manpower. I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to the mistakes that have been made, but I am saying that we should give them adequate time to turn things around and not behave like a mob of angry, entitled children.

It's gotten to the point that it's too little too late.

I will admit I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of info Trick shared in last week's twitch stream...

Until I realized, out of no less than 5 forum regulars there, not a single one of us even cared enough anymore to bother taking notes to summarize the bulk of the info for a post on the forums after the fact.

If they want us back they need to re-energize the community and get us excited for the game, and the current state of events is taking us in the opposite direction.

mattr
09-11-2013, 04:58 PM
As for how many people? That is hard to say in the game culture we have these days. I certainly hope there are enough to keep it afloat. With so many impatient people buying a game, devouring it (someone here called them game locusts, and I love that person... lol) and moving on to the next one for a week or two until that one is spent (rinse, repeat), it's difficult for *any* game company to keep one game fresh and new enough to hold players interests for much longer than a month.

Considering for the past week I come home, log in, sit in pvp queue for 4 hours to play 2 matches if i'm lucky....

hey u
09-11-2013, 05:25 PM
it's difficult for *any* game company to keep one game fresh and new enough to hold players interests for much longer than a month.


And I say no it is not. I'm now on Sony but back on Microsoft there was an arcade called Monday night combat. If Defiance made a game mode like that I would freak out and on a older post I would play this game till the day I die. Only reason I don't play Monday night combat is the lag when you got in the 500+ or 1000+ waves it would freak out and the lag and I smashed my 360 so I now on Ps3

Market
09-11-2013, 05:49 PM
Please bear with me, quoting multiple people and keeping my head straight through it all is bad even without a headache ;)


Have you read the 450k scrip thread?

Yes, I have. I believe that they tried to do right by the people who shelled out that much in-game currency and it ended up in a bit of a ball dropping... I didn't get the 485k, but I'm not upset about it in the least. The game still holds my interest without the extra pixels. There were people who had a legitimate claim and Trion listened. I doubt it was fit-throwing that swayed them into acting upon this issue.


So you want us to have facts... and where are these facts supposed to come from? You must be talking about the facts regarding the upcoming grenade changes, right? I will speak for myself here, throwing grenades takes practice and timing, I am getting better each day, yet I have someone telling me I miss all the time... shrug.

I can't speak about the plans to change grenades as of yet. None of us have first hand knowledge of what they're going to put into the live game and what was said by Trick on the topic is still subject to change before they release it. The changes they have in store for them could very well include a fix for the grenade issue many people are having, but I haven't seen anything about that in the positive or negative.




Market,

You created a very nice thread, I was appalled when it was immediately closed. Dahanese was correct in re-opening it. I love to be optimistic, I strive for it each day. You need to create another thread with suggestions TO TRION on how to keep optimism in their customers because they are failing and failing badly.

Thank you! I consider myself to be an optimist grounded in reality. As for suggestions to Trion, I think they know what they have to do to make people optimistic about the game. What I have been doing is using the in-game report system to inform them of anything I find wrong with the game as I run into things. I suggest the same to all of our Clan and many of them do so. I also chime in on bug threads when I have something to add to it.


When exactly did expecting a product you paid money for to work become childish?

I never said it was. I expect the money I spent (and you spent, and we all spent) to not be thrown away. What I find childish is the manner in which some people share their dissatisfaction with said product. It's not necessary to use abusive or vulgar language to share opinions. It's always counterproductive.


Many of the game's worst problems have been there since Alpha (which was really a closed Beta, but never mind...) and were reported and discussed at length then, yet they went ahead and launched a buggy arsed half baked mess anyway.

I didn't have the ability to be a part of the Alpha, so I can't speak from experience on what has and hasn't changed. I will say that I know programmers cannot account for some things from the testing process into release and there's no way to know all the issues that exist until the game goes from the hands of a few thousand players into those of tens or hundreds of thousands.

I will say that I agree with the feelings that the game should have been tested longer before release and since release there needed to be priority shifts to fix the bigger ones. As I said in the OP, mistakes were made. The true test of Trion will come in these next few months to see if the renewed sense of priority will pay off with results in the game or not.


It has been downhill ever since.

I can't agree with this at all. I was involved in the XBox beta and have been playing the game near daily since release. In my experience, the first week was the worst. People and cars flying through the air like they were on a three second time loop. Enemies that wouldn't die, items lost in the salvage matrix when you logged out or DC'd. Constant reloading of a weapon when hit while reloading. Frequent time-outs going into Ark Falls. These things were all problems for me in the first months that are simply gone now. I still get the "stutter glitch" every once in a while (picking up an item while reloading a weapon resulting in a character stuttering) but that was a significant problem that has been reduced to highly infrequent. I don't get shorted in my ammo reserve when I swap weapons anymore, nor do I lose a Perk from my loadouts every time I log in or enter/leave a Co-Op. Saying it's been downhill since release is just not the case for many people and is too vague a statement for Trion to do anything about the problems that lead you to that conclusion.


Just how much time is "adequate"?

I actually answered this question earlier in this thread, but it's really a matter of personal opinion for each person as to how long they are willing to wait for all the problems to be dealt with.


Not that I honestly even really care at this point, but personally I think the half life on the whole "give them time!!!1!!!one!!" argument expired quite a while back.

You must care at least a little bit or you wouldn't have bothered to respond to this, much less still be hanging around here. If it's too long for you personally, I can't slight you for that opinion! Each person is different in what they are willing to put up with and for how long! For me, I totally understand (and am baffled by) the amount of work it takes to build something like this on three platforms when it's not been done before on 2/3rds of them. I am willing to put up with the minor bugs I've encountered for a considerable amount of time as I have not run into anything game-breaking now that the massive disconnects have subsided for me.

I liken the task they have before them to finding a needle in a haystack on an Earth-sized planet made of haystacks. I'm patient. I understand that some aren't. I also understand that some started out patient and that has since run its course. I don't fault people for getting frustrated with the game, only the manner in which they share that frustration.

(takes a drink, has a smoke, walks around a little bit... .... okay... here goes again... lol)


Lots of stuff to reply to and I kinda jumped around when I was doing it, so if it doesn't make sense just try and read each point by itself... that might work. Walls of text and headaches don't mix but I'm going with it anyways. :o

Oh, tell me about it! lol


While I wouldn't exactly say "Trion doesn't care about it's customers.", it's also very hard to deny that they are pushing much harder to bring in new players than they are for keeping old ones. Many people have even voiced concerns that they feel they are being pushed away. That cannot be too good from a business standpoint.

I agree with you on this, but if the most recent livestream is an indication of what is to come, they have something in the works for player retention. This is a shared sentiment across the board, it seems, and I think they are painfully aware they have much work to do where this is concerned.


I've said this before and I'll say it again:
My biggest problem with such changes is very simple. More times than not, these changes have shown a very distinct lack of foresight and/or logical thought process. It's those changes that make you stare at the screen dumbfounded and think "What the hell are these people thinking?".

I personally haven't thought that about anything I've seen in the game yet, but the night is still young and we have patches and more DLC on the horizon. lol On further thought, I did think that the first time I ran into a Volge. But then I revived myself and changed my tactics! LOL


Case in point, the latest fiasco with the Thorn Liro vendor and the reimbursements. Anyone that argues that they couldn't have handled the situation better is just plain wrong. Sure they could've done it worse too, but the path they took made it look like they made a decision without thinking through the consequences and had to rush out a band-aid afterwards. That is bad for business, and it is quite simply unacceptable that this blind-leading-the-blind approach to game changes still persists.

As I said earlier in this quote book, I feel they had the right intentions but someone somewhere made a really big error. I don't think it was their intention to hand out Scrip to anyone that didn't spend 500k on a sword. Mistakes are going to be made, as they've admitted, and to some this was a really large one. I didn't get the 485k back and I'm not bothered by it, nor am I upset that some people did. It's not going to change the way I play the game, nor will it effect my enjoyment. If they had done something like this with Bits, it would be a whole different issue, I think.

I don't want that to sound like I think there's no relevance to your point. Not at all. They need to avoid mistakes like that in the future as if they were made of the plague. It's only going to do damage to them in the long run.


I do not believe I've ever stated that the devs have lied to us.
I have stated numerous times that they have made mistakes, and even failed. Failure to follow through on their design intentions is as good as lying to some people. I might not see it that way, but I'm not going to fault others for feeling slighted in the matter.

I think this is the reason that the community people have clamped up severely when it comes to sharing information that is not set in stone. Some people are going to take a statement like "what we want to do is..." and turn it into gospel, only to freak out when it doesn't happen. Then there's the nasty side of the internet that takes a statement and plays the telephone game with it in a matter of minutes. Again, I think this very thing is why Trion is clamping up on what they want to do with the game unless someone is actually testing that feature at that time.


This does go to a deeper problem though. Failure is, of course, an option. But it is seldom a good one from a business standpoint. And there are myriad "features" of Defiance that could only be described by the word failure, not the least of which are the horribly designed social aspects (chat and for the longest time voice-comms - An open mic with no option for push-to-talk that defaults to on with no indication that you're broadcasting whether you're using a headset or have a mic integrated to your web-cam or audio card is - or was - UNACCEPTABLE.).

I'm on the XBox, but I used to be a PC gamer before my rig exploded. (yes, literally, but that's a story for Off-Topic, I'd imagine... lol) I can understand how that would be incredibly frustrating. I hope that's something that either has been fixed, or will be in the very near future. I know on the consoles, we've had a heck of a time communicating with others, especially Clan members. I don't agree with the current chat system layout or some of its functions, but at least it works now! At least, it has for me without fail so far.


Opinions and facts...
Fact: They've made mistakes. - Unless you want to argue that everything wrong with Defiance is and has always been intentional...

Nope, won't argue that in the least! If it was intentional, someone has a fatal business model!


Fact: The only person from Trion's end I can recall admitting to having made mistakes publicly was the Ex-Executive Producer who summarily got thrown under the bus with his now viewed as wildly fantasy-inspired blog posts.

Since I can't call out names, I will only say that there are three community people that have said outright mistakes were made in several places on these forums and over the livestream. That's not including the ex-EP.


I can respect a development team that acknowledges their shortcomings and seeks to improve them, but if they don't "own up" to those shortcomings, I have no way of knowing that they recognize and intend to address the problem, and thus have no reason to believe things will improve.

It's gotten to the point that it's too little too late.

For some, it may be far past that point. But as long as there are people here willing to share the information about what we see wrong with the game, the only way they can drop the ball is by ignoring it. I don't think that's the case here. After all, this thread was brought back from the dead. That tells me they want to know.


I will admit I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of info Trick shared in last week's twitch stream...

Until I realized, out of no less than 5 forum regulars there, not a single one of us even cared enough anymore to bother taking notes to summarize the bulk of the info for a post on the forums after the fact.

If they want us back they need to re-energize the community and get us excited for the game, and the current state of events is taking us in the opposite direction.

Probably the best livestream yet, as far as I'm concerned. Other than killing a few minutes to ask Trick what kind of animal he'd like to be... but I understand some humor needs to be splashed around sometimes.

I also realized that no one here bothered to post anything but answers to their own questions, but I for one wrote up an article about it on our website. Still, I share your concerns with this. It shows that the hardcore fans are losing their edge for the game. Hopefully something that will shift around very, very soon.

okay........ I'm posting this and I'll look for more in a bit... my hands are starting to cramp up something fierce!! lol

Azubaz
09-11-2013, 06:10 PM
There is not enough content. Content that is there is WAY too easy ([Don't just make enemies hit harder and have more life, it is just as easy, it just takes a little longer to burn them down. We need smarter AI and maybe they do need to hit harder, but MUCH harder like player dead in 2-3 hits {1 for headshot} hard] I've played more challenging games made for young children). When I do finally find something to do, I get disconnected. I've lost count of how many Shadow Wars I was leading, just to get disconnected near the finish and not getting to see my awesome score (#1).

Many times the things that keep people in a MMO is is the social aspect. It is seemingly non-existent in this game.

There is just not enough to keep me playing, and the stuff that would has pissed me off with disconnects or auto aim weapons (have no business in a fps, or any game that should require any amount of skill). Then all the broken things in the game (apparently they are hiding behind the fine print on the back of the box). Something about this thread and the first few replies that really anger me. They do all this negative stuff and you want me to accept it? No, I'm done. I tolerated it this long, but tonight I think I'm done.




Nope, won't argue that in the least! If it was intentional, someone has a fatal business model!

We know it is intentional because when you report it to CS or anyone who responds to those things says "They are working as intended."

I think what happened is it didn't blow up and become a big thing as expected and now it's an clean escape plan. "Our game is dead due to low popularity, sorry Syfy/Dodge"

1. Release unpopular changes that drive away players.
2. Explain to sponsors that it has become unpopular.
3. ???
4. All Hands Abandon Ship

Xaearth
09-11-2013, 06:41 PM
I read your replies and don't really have anything else to add to what I said, we both just sit at different ends of the spectrum, and that's fine as long as we're being realistic about it all and honest with ourselves.

But I did want to elaborate on my point about "lack of foresight" on the part of the dev team. I didn't really go into it because... well, it's a very long and drawn-out analysis of the progression of the game since launch, and didn't really fit in the thread.

To clarify my position, I'm going to link to the first part of this analysis (the rest of which lies in a hodgepodge of notepad, MS Word, and my head) I posted on the forums... ~1 month after launch it must've been?
You may find some of the things in it are familiar, and several are problems they're still dealing with today.
Devs, Lack of Foresight and Common Sense is Ruining this Game (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?63552-Devs-Lack-of-Foresight-and-Common-Sense-is-Ruining-this-Game)

No need to read it, no sense in replying to it (it's a 4 month old dead thread), it's just the easiest way of explaining my position on that point to anyone curious, but it's long as hell so I'm not going to quote it. :o

Amack
09-11-2013, 07:13 PM
Yes, I have. I believe that they tried to do right by the people who shelled out that much in-game currency and it ended up in a bit of a ball dropping... I didn't get the 485k, but I'm not upset about it in the least. The game still holds my interest without the extra pixels. There were people who had a legitimate claim and Trion listened. I doubt it was fit-throwing that swayed them into acting upon this issue.

I also believe they had good intentions, but we all know where good intentions lead. I am still playing regardless of the unfairness. Unfairness will not stop me from enjoying a game where I can solo and level myself, it will however stop me from spending in said game.



I can't speak about the plans to change grenades as of yet. None of us have first hand knowledge of what they're going to put into the live game and what was said by Trick on the topic is still subject to change before they release it. The changes they have in store for them could very well include a fix for the grenade issue many people are having, but I haven't seen anything about that in the positive or negative.

The only issue I have with any proposed changes to grenades, is that I have no issues with them currently. I find no need to change them. I've worked with computers enough to know, that if the code is bad, it affects everyone equally, and this is simply not the case we are facing. If you don't diagnose a problem properly, then you are only adding more variables to the equation, and that is the last thing we need here. Who is to say that the people having the issues are not logged into a certain machine(s) in the server farm, and that machine(s) are the ones causing the issue. That is a hypothetical example. Having someone tell me I am missing targets all the time when I see damage numbers by throwing grenades is not kosher.

MacDeath
09-11-2013, 10:21 PM
Episode content has to be run by syfy, you know the folk who own the universe, the game + ideas for it ans stuff are Trions but the stories have to be oked by syfy. Sure the episode content sucks but i understand why for season one, as for the teams getting closer and stuff im hoping the later dlc's/episodes are actually gamplay/story altering.

I never read/heard any official statement about turrets. Only some game article things and since I rarely read those I have no idea about credibility.

Coop arena's were buggy and once they get to grips with it I hope they are fun.

Trion aren't like EA or treyarch or infinity ward who can push out year upon year of the same crap over and over cause idiot fanboys keep buying it all up so they can afford to ignore us. Their continued success (and so good profit) depends on getting all their problems ironed out. If this game flops they lost a large audience and many are rift players too/interested in their other projects.

And above all people it is just a damned GAME. Stop feeling like someone cut your kids throats in front of you. Walk away for a bit, it is a prime gaming season now, come back in a few months (or not at all).
Defiance is a game that only plays well when lots of players are on line at the same time. Sieges won't work at all solo, Major Arkfalls don't work solo, etc. So asking people to leave the game (even for a time out) is counter productive. Most people who leave will start focusing on some other game and few will return. So players need other players to play.

Trion ALSO needs players to play. Trion has little hope of getting additional revenue out of players who aren't actively playing. Low revenue will eventually lead to the game being shut down.

So PLEASE stop asking playes to leave.

3rdpig
09-11-2013, 11:20 PM
My Daddy told me "Never attribute something to malice when it can be explained by simple incompetence".

Trion doesn't hate their customers, they don't want the game to fail and they're not liars or thieves. They're just bunglers. Oh sure, there's one or two here and there who aren't, but on a whole they're not competent to do what they're trying to do, which was start and run a vast project with half vast resources. Sure, they're nice folks, I'd love to sit down and have a beer with them, but they're not up to running this project with any degree of competency.

Here's an example. I've got two pursuits that won't complete, Cerberus License and Volge Violence. I've put in at least 3 in game trouble tickets and gotten no response. I've posted it here multiple times and gotten no response, I've contacted their live chat and been booted to email because it's not a technical issue. Their email team sent me a canned response that says "We know and we're working on it" yet didn't bother to mark them off as complete. Now I learn here I have lie going into live chat, tell them it's a technical issue and they'll mark them as completed.

And that's just one thing by one person. There are many other issues that can only be explained by bungling. From the top to the bottom.

I've bought 3 copies of Defiance (and that was back when they were full price) and 2 DLCs. I like the game and want it to succeed. But until they get a savvy producer who gets the resources to create and fulfill an intelligent strategy, what we're going to get is more bungling.

Rasczak
09-11-2013, 11:44 PM
And no offense to the OP, but as a business owner myself, with a decent sized fan base, international publication and distribution, and very positive reviews for 8 years and running, you obviously do not understand the full relationship between a company and its consumer base.

The typical forum trolls aside, Trion Worlds has brought every bit of serious criticism and irate consumer backlash on itself; and unfortunately does, at this point, deserve what it gets. The MMO market is highly competitive today. It is no longer a market where the consumer base will hang around through issue after issue, mistake after mistake, and give it time to turn around. The market is populated with far too many MMOs whose defenders rallied for just that sort of support, and the games have, to a one, inevitably been dumped into the F2P market by the studio as a means to stay afloat-- including two with very well-known licenses attached.

In the current market, it is launch ready, or don't launch at all. Launching a game in the state Defiance was launched in, and then having the past 5 months that it has had, is a model for failure. This was not Trion Worlds' first game, they already had over 2 years experience and should have known what they were doing, what state they were launching the game in, and whether or not they had the proper staff in place to support the product.

They made what can only be assumed to be educated and experienced decisions, both pre-launch and post-launch. Therefore, they've received the results their management should have expected.

LITTLE B1RD
09-12-2013, 12:08 AM
I happened upon this thread earlier and was dumbfounded as to why it was immediately closed.

Market makes some good points, and the mod who closed it, obviously, didn't even read it.

Good call, dahanese to reopening this post. Unfortunately, it looks like many of the veteran players are still unhappy.

Perhaps I'm just not "hardcore" enough to appreciate their perspective, but some just seem to loiter the forums to naysay any positive post.

I admit that the original "urge to play" has diminished after a couple of months, but there is still a lot to this game that I have yet to explore. My playtime being limited could account for this; some people seem to be able to play anytime, sooo jelly.

Just to add, I don't begrudge anyone that got extra scrip for the charge blade debacle. Anyone who didn't "actually" deserve it, ENJOY! (you all have probably suffered through disconnects, lag, etc. so, there ya go, Trion threw you a bone.) All those who are crying, " NO FAIR!", no worries, that extra scrip will be burned through very quickly.

Another point, the fact that people are getting so upset that other people got something that they did not makes me wonder about the players here. I thought this game was about people working 2gether, but lately, the focus seems to be about competing.

There is a co-op option, and there is a competitive option, but lately, they seem to be getting "blurred", ie: duels.

MacDeath
09-12-2013, 01:01 AM
My Daddy told me "Never attribute something to malice when it can be explained by simple incompetence".

Trion doesn't hate their customers, they don't want the game to fail and they're not liars or thieves. They're just bunglers. Oh sure, there's one or two here and there who aren't, but on a whole they're not competent to do what they're trying to do, which was start and run a vast project with half vast resources. Sure, they're nice folks, I'd love to sit down and have a beer with them, but they're not up to running this project with any degree of competency.

Here's an example. I've got two pursuits that won't complete, Cerberus License and Volge Violence. I've put in at least 3 in game trouble tickets and gotten no response. I've posted it here multiple times and gotten no response, I've contacted their live chat and been booted to email because it's not a technical issue. Their email team sent me a canned response that says "We know and we're working on it" yet didn't bother to mark them off as complete. Now I learn here I have lie going into live chat, tell them it's a technical issue and they'll mark them as completed.

And that's just one thing by one person. There are many other issues that can only be explained by bungling. From the top to the bottom.

I've bought 3 copies of Defiance (and that was back when they were full price) and 2 DLCs. I like the game and want it to succeed. But until they get a savvy producer who gets the resources to create and fulfill an intelligent strategy, what we're going to get is more bungling.
I don't know which is worse, a 'vast project with half vast resources' or a 'half vast project with vast resources'. The gaming world is, IMO, full of both types. What would be nice is to have a vast project with appropriate resources. A right sized game with a right sized staff using appropriate tools for agile iteration...

Valdrane78
09-12-2013, 01:16 AM
I don't know which is worse, a 'vast project with half vast resources' or a 'half vast project with vast resources'. The gaming world is, IMO, full of both types. What would be nice is to have a vast project with appropriate resources. A right sized game with a right sized staff using appropriate tools for agile iteration...

So far, from what I have seen, and what I have read directly from the source. Dragon Age: Inquisition is doing just that. Heck, they even extended development by a year to get it right. But, like with any other game, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Time and game play will tell.

Azubaz
09-12-2013, 04:15 AM
Heck, they even extended development by a year to get it right. But, like with any other game, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Well you see, there was a game that had a horrible release. The other game producers watched and took notice as they do not want to do the same.

Market
09-12-2013, 09:02 AM
Many times the things that keep people in a MMO is is the social aspect. It is seemingly non-existent in this game.

I'm sorry to read that this has been your experience, but it hasn't been the same for me or my Clan. We talk to each other constantly through text and voice (though I'm not able to be on a mic as much as I would like to be) now that it's working on a regular basis for us. I haven't been experiencing constant disconnects as we were once accustomed to and I truly hope they get this issue ironed out for everyone.


There is just not enough to keep me playing, and the stuff that would has pissed me off with disconnects or auto aim weapons (have no business in a fps, or any game that should require any amount of skill). Then all the broken things in the game (apparently they are hiding behind the fine print on the back of the box). Something about this thread and the first few replies that really anger me. They do all this negative stuff and you want me to accept it? No, I'm done. I tolerated it this long, but tonight I think I'm done.

Again, I'm terribly sorry this is what the game has come down to for you, but know that not everyone playing is sharing your experiences. Does this negate what you personally are going through? Absolutely not. If one person is suffering these issues, it's one too many. With recent changes in transparency and a huge increase in conversation between Trion and their customers, I don't feel that they are hiding behind anything. I respect your opinion, but it's just not what I've been seeing.

I see a difference in being asked to simply accept it and what I'm suggesting with this whole thread. I don't want people to accept the problems with the game. I would just like to see the issues repaired. The method some around here use to bring problems to light is simply unacceptable and counterproductive, is all. Bashing Trion and their employees will not magically make the issues vanish.

If we bring our concerns to the table without all the vile language and give real substance in our posts, the efforts could be much more streamlined when it comes to fixing the issues. Simply saying "the game is broken, fix it" does not give the Devs anything to go on. I'm not looking for people to ignore the errors and accept the game as it is. What I am asking is that we all be a bit more respectful to the hand that feeds us by being concise and giving as much detail as possible.


We know it is intentional because when you report it to CS or anyone who responds to those things says "They are working as intended."

I think what happened is it didn't blow up and become a big thing as expected and now it's an clean escape plan. "Our game is dead due to low popularity, sorry Syfy/Dodge"

1. Release unpopular changes that drive away players.
2. Explain to sponsors that it has become unpopular.
3. ???
4. All Hands Abandon Ship

"We" don't know anything of the sort. I have never seen a company that would rather shoot itself in the foot than sell their product to a thousand customers. It's bad business, and to say that these mistakes are intentional is very short-sighted.

I've worked in customer service in the past and I'm painfully aware of how little information flows to people answering phones and emails. This said, I had the benefit of being able to tell a person "hang on, let me go ask someone with more information than I have on hand", and was able to follow through to get the customer informed. Thankfully, the times I've dealt with CS from Trion, the people I've talked to have been very knowledgeable on the subjects of which I've inquired. I'm sorry that you haven't had the same.


I read your replies and don't really have anything else to add to what I said, we both just sit at different ends of the spectrum, and that's fine as long as we're being realistic about it all and honest with ourselves.

I couldn't agree more.


But I did want to elaborate on my point about "lack of foresight" on the part of the dev team. I didn't really go into it because... well, it's a very long and drawn-out analysis of the progression of the game since launch, and didn't really fit in the thread. <snip>

I read the thread you sited and I can only hope that discussions like this and the recent development of increased conversation will bring these things to light and changes will be made. This is exactly why I started this, to be honest. There are far too many threads of hate-spewing quashing those of real substance in the deluge.

To point out a specific (and slightly off-topic) section of your analysis, I agree about the Emergencies. Even though they are excellent sources of character and weapon XP, once you hit the cap they're not very enticing. I would love to see each one of them having a *small* chance at giving a player one Key Code. I think more people would stop for them if this were the case.


Having someone tell me I am missing targets all the time when I see damage numbers by throwing grenades is not kosher.

Forgive me for this, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I know that several people are having issues with current grenades being thrown with no effect whatsoever. Thankfully, I have not yet run into this issue and I use all grenade types depending on where I am in the game. Could I ask that you clarify your position and give a bit more detail?


And no offense to the OP, but as a business owner myself, with a decent sized fan base, international publication and distribution, and very positive reviews for 8 years and running, you obviously do not understand the full relationship between a company and its consumer base.

With all due respect, you do not know my history to make this claim. I shared this comment with some of my family members and we all had a huge laugh over this assumption. I'm not going to share my resume with the forums, but I assure you my life experience has me quite knowledgeable on the subject.


The typical forum trolls aside, Trion Worlds has brought every bit of serious criticism and irate consumer backlash on itself; and unfortunately does, at this point, deserve what it gets. The MMO market is highly competitive today. It is no longer a market where the consumer base will hang around through issue after issue, mistake after mistake, and give it time to turn around. The market is populated with far too many MMOs whose defenders rallied for just that sort of support, and the games have, to a one, inevitably been dumped into the F2P market by the studio as a means to stay afloat-- including two with very well-known licenses attached.

I agree they have put themselves in the position to be criticized, however my entire point to this is that under no circumstances does it give anyone the right to berate the people working for the company. As I've said before, it is only counterproductive to do so. Be angry. Bring everything wrong with the title to the forums, support tickets, live support, email, PM's, and any other outlet that Trion will read. However, nasty language and slander is never the route to positive outcome. Ever.


In the current market, it is launch ready, or don't launch at all. Launching a game in the state Defiance was launched in, and then having the past 5 months that it has had, is a model for failure. This was not Trion Worlds' first game, they already had over 2 years experience and should have known what they were doing, what state they were launching the game in, and whether or not they had the proper staff in place to support the product.

They made what can only be assumed to be educated and experienced decisions, both pre-launch and post-launch. Therefore, they've received the results their management should have expected.

I agree that this utopian ideal you describe would be the absolute best situation we could hope for. However, it's just not the world we live in, nor do I think it will ever be. This isn't Trion's first foray into MMO's, but it is the first time they've worked with consoles. I've had several people tell me that the PC experience is much cleaner than that of the consoles. I have been saying since the console Beta that Trion needed to test and repair these versions much more than they did. I would even like to see some way of bringing an Alpha test server online for the consoles to bug test future content. I realize that there are multiple factors that will likely keep this from happening, but it's still good to bring it up.

The point you make here is a good one, but it just isn't the way things happen these days. Cars, food, video games, appliances, pharmaceuticals, etc all have this issue. While it would be excellent for companies to fully vet their products before release, it's just not how capitalism works. As a business owner, you should be painfully aware of this fact. I can't count the number of video games I've purchased that had a release day patch to fix things that were wrong before they sent it to print. I see countless ads on television from lawyers suing pharmaceutical companies for products that hurt or kill people due to a lack of thorough testing. Thankfully, no one will die as a result of the persistent bugs in Defiance. Or at least, I hope no one will!! lol


I happened upon this thread earlier and was dumbfounded as to why it was immediately closed.

Market makes some good points, and the mod who closed it, obviously, didn't even read it.

Good call, dahanese to reopening this post. Unfortunately, it looks like many of the veteran players are still unhappy.

Perhaps I'm just not "hardcore" enough to appreciate their perspective, but some just seem to loiter the forums to naysay any positive post.

Thank you for your support! I couldn't agree more with the rest of this bit. I don't want to discuss moderation here, so I'll just leave it with thanking Dahanese for reinstating it. :)


I like this game and I like all the changes. As far as nerfing weapons goes, its super funny how the over powered weapons get nerfed and then ppl cry because that's all they used.

This is the curse of online gaming, imo. I find it humorous myself, especially because it's a never-ending cycle. These are the days of our lives...... lol

Snodination
09-12-2013, 02:29 PM
don't be an albatross.


That's a cute way of saying it, I'll use it in the future. Good job Dahanese!

Xaearth
09-12-2013, 02:41 PM
That's a cute way of saying it, I'll use it in the future. Good job Dahanese!

"Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot killed it."

It pains me to see people on a SyFy shooter that don't know that quote. :(

Sanguinesun
09-12-2013, 02:43 PM
"Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot killed it."

It pains me to see people on a SyFy shooter that don't know that quote. :(

Going the way of the dodo hehe :P

dahanese
09-12-2013, 04:28 PM
"Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot killed it."

It pains me to see people on a SyFy shooter that don't know that quote. :(

And worn round the neck - so perhaps I should have written the whole line for clarity but I figured with a community like this, I wouldn't have to be long winded. :P

If there's one thing I know, it's my literature. I am sure there a couple of you out there that can give me a run for my money but I've read a library worth of stuff.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_idiom_an_albatross_around_your_neck_ mean

Azubaz
09-12-2013, 04:36 PM
Thankfully, the times I've dealt with CS from Trion, the people I've talked to have been very knowledgeable on the subjects of which I've inquired. I'm sorry that you haven't had the same.

Seems we've been in contact with completely support staff.

Market
09-12-2013, 07:29 PM
And worn round the neck - so perhaps I should have written the whole line for clarity but I figured with a community like this, I wouldn't have to be long winded. :P

If there's one thing I know, it's my literature. I am sure there a couple of you out there that can give me a run for my money but I've read a library worth of stuff.

I may not be the most well read person on the block, but I instantly knew what you were talking about... Thank you, Bruce...

Iron Maiden - Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNAiPpApx4)


Seems we've been in contact with completely different support staff.

I edited in the bold portion of the quote, I hope I had a correct assumption with that.

Perhaps we should be making a point of suggesting that the support staff (all of them) get more up-to-date information so there aren't such large discrepancies in the service they offer. As I say, I've had very good luck with the three or four people I've talked to. I know this is not the case for everyone.... but it should be!

Certainly something they could look into, I would imagine!

dahanese
09-12-2013, 08:26 PM
I may not be the most well read person on the block, but I instantly knew what you were talking about... Thank you, Bruce...

Iron Maiden - Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNAiPpApx4)



I edited in the bold portion of the quote, I hope I had a correct assumption with that.

Perhaps we should be making a point of suggesting that the support staff (all of them) get more up-to-date information so there aren't such large discrepancies in the service they offer. As I say, I've had very good luck with the three or four people I've talked to. I know this is not the case for everyone.... but it should be!

Certainly something they could look into, I would imagine!

I haven't been replying to everyone's posts in the thread (but reading them and want to thank you for the good conversation) but this is something the studio move has been helping already. Customer Service is still in a different office, though, so that's the next area to make sure we improve. There are definitely times when I tell you guys stuff because I got it from the devs a few cubes over and my info is different from CS because it's coming from the horse's mouth to you. There are ways to tighten that up more.

MacDeath
09-12-2013, 08:54 PM
Seems we've been in contact with completely support staff.
I've been a Trion tester/customer since 2010. In that time I've never found Trion's CS staff to be less than completely professional. In my experience they go out of their way to resolve issues that they can and to explain why they can't resolve those that they can't. I also expect that they are understaffed to deal with all the issues they get due to buggy code. Buggy code is a dev issue and to a large extent a QA issue, NOT a CS issue.

Rasczak
09-12-2013, 09:11 PM
@Market (because there is way too much to quote):

First, I'm glad you and yours had a laugh. Irrelevant, however. I had a hearty laugh at the original post, so we're on even ground, then. /shrug.

Second, I was not speaking of those insulting and trolling Trion Worlds at the forums, so your replies to me in that regard were off-topic to my post. As I stated, the Trolls aside, but in regards to the serious criticisms and backlash:

Yes, they are founded and deserved. First time on consoles or not, they have to be prepared and be competitive. If not, they can expect to lose customers to their competition, lose revenue, make cuts, downsize, lose jobs . . . and pretty much what they've been suffering. Rift (their flagship title, for example) is a fun game, but in the end proved to not be as competitive has it could have been had they not tried to directly compete with WoW and seek out disenfranchised Blizzard customers (and even their launch marketing made that intent clear). So, 27 months post launch, it went F2P. First quarter post launch, it consolidated servers and was $9.99 retail, first month subscription still included.

Defiance, even by console game standards, is not very competitive. I've been hearing this from enough console players already. That situation stems from Trion Worlds' decisions as a game developer/business, not because they aren't existing in a utopia.

Trion Worlds has made its situation. This was not a problem brought about by outside factors or consumer economic issues, for example.

There are some developers that I am willing to give a wait-and-see consumer approach to, because they have proved to (usually) be able to turn it around.

Blizzard, obviously. Surprisingly, SOE as well, since they actually did manage to vastly improve EQ2 and DCUO over time.

I'm at a loss to name a third.

Of course, now I am mentally shaking my head. I've stopped logging into Defiance as of late. Haven't booted it up in almost 2 weeks. I'm not even sure why I'm at the forums anymore.

Well, in all fairness to the Defiance fans: Auf Wiedersehen, until I decide to play again. I hope you continue to enjoy it, and maybe I'll return to it again one day.

MacDeath
09-12-2013, 09:32 PM
@Market (because there is way too much to quote):

First, I'm glad you and yours had a laugh. Irrelevant, however. I had a hearty laugh at the original post, so we're on even ground, then. /shrug.

Second, I was not speaking of those insulting and trolling Trion Worlds at the forums, so your replies to me in that regard were off-topic to my post. As I stated, the Trolls aside, but in regards to the serious criticisms and backlash:

Yes, they are founded and deserved. First time on consoles or not, they have to be prepared and be competitive. If not, they can expect to lose customers to their competition, lose revenue, make cuts, downsize, lose jobs . . . and pretty much what they've been suffering. Rift (their flagship title, for example) is a fun game, but in the end proved to not be as competitive has it could have been had they not tried to directly compete with WoW and seek out disenfranchised Blizzard customers (and even their launch marketing made that intent clear). So, 27 months post launch, it went F2P. First quarter post launch, it consolidated servers and was $9.99 retail, first month subscription still included.

Defiance, even by console game standards, is not very competitive. I've been hearing this from enough console players already. That situation stems from Trion Worlds' decisions as a game developer/business, not because they aren't existing in a utopia.

Trion Worlds has made its situation. This was not a problem brought about by outside factors or consumer economic issues, for example.

There are some developers that I am willing to give a wait-and-see consumer approach to, because they have proved to (usually) be able to turn it around.

Blizzard, obviously. Surprisingly, SOE as well, since they actually did manage to vastly improve EQ2 and DCUO over time.

I'm at a loss to name a third.

Of course, now I am mentally shaking my head. I've stopped logging into Defiance as of late. Haven't booted it up in almost 2 weeks. I'm not even sure why I'm at the forums anymore.

Well, in all fairness to the Defiance fans: Auf Wiedersehen, until I decide to play again. I hope you continue to enjoy it, and maybe I'll return to it again one day.
Good luck out there friend. May the gaming gods smile down on you. May your road be challenging and fun.

Stop by and check us out now and then here at Fort Defiance.

Krauser
09-12-2013, 09:51 PM
After not playing for over a week, I figured I'd play for a few hours tonight, see what my clan mates were up to, maybe buy some bits and get the Dark Matter armor. After 20 minutes I get the underwater chainsaw audio glitch, log off and put the game back on the shelf.

I like the game, but it doesn't work. Until the first DLC shut the game down I was playing for hours a day, every day. I used to log off and on all night to keep playing, but I don't see the point anymore. Most of my clan, which was founded because we all played this game, are playing other games now. All the post DLC stuff is nice, but what good are new arkfalls if you get kicked out before the end and get nothing for them? What good are arenas if they're so bugged you quit from frustration? What good is a four person truck when there aren't four people you know online at the same time? I thought things were getting better, but since the DLC they have become much worse. I bought the season pass, but I'm not even interested in news about the next DLC because I know whatever we hear about it now is just hypothetical. I learned my lesson from the months of hype about DLC 1. What we get will undoubtedly be reduced by the limitations of Trion and their inability to get this game to work. I'll be surprised if there's even three DLCs for the consoles.

The crazy part is, I liked the show too. When the second season starts next summer this game will be a distant unpleasant memory, and I doubt I'll even watch it. By then I'm sure the next gen consoles will have reduced this game to a small PC following. I might try to play Defiance again in a few weeks, but from now on when I log off I'm done. I'd rather be playing a game than trying to get one to work long enough to enjoy it, especially since this is the only game I've ever had that problem with, online or off.

God bless you crazy freaks. If I ever run into you on PS4 maybe we'll have a good laugh about this mess. Later taters.

Market
09-12-2013, 10:50 PM
@Market (because there is way too much to quote):

First, I'm glad you and yours had a laugh. Irrelevant, however. I had a hearty laugh at the original post, so we're on even ground, then. /shrug.

Happy to amuse you! Personally, I don't think any opinion is irrelevant as long as it's grounded in reality, but.... that's my opinion! ;)


Second, I was not speaking of those insulting and trolling Trion Worlds at the forums, so your replies to me in that regard were off-topic to my post. As I stated, the Trolls aside, but in regards to the serious criticisms and backlash:

I apologize for being confused, it seemed at first like you were disagreeing with me. I'm glad we're on the same page. I never said they didn't deserve criticism. My entire point was the method and lack of helpful information to get it on track.


First time on consoles or not, they have to be prepared and be competitive. If not, they can expect to lose customers to their competition, lose revenue, make cuts, downsize, lose jobs . . . and pretty much what they've been suffering.

I can think of a few game companies off the top of my head that this applies to. Even the biggest game company currently in existence suffers from these things. The difference is that Trion doesn't have a ton of sports games that people will buy year after year to make up the balance.

If a company could predict exactly what will come of their decisions in every avenue, well... I think it would suddenly produce a unicorn! There's simply no way to predict everything that will come up after a game releases. But, I digress.

I'm going to state this again to be totally clear. I agree that mistakes were made with Defiance. They made them before release, after release, and very recently with the unintentional reimbursement of Scrip to those who weren't entitled to it. But show me anyone (corporation or not) that goes through life without making mistakes and I'll saddle up that unicorn! lol

I appreciate your opinions and I really wish we lived in a world where they were possible and typical. Unfortunately it's not, and I wish you luck with your game choices in the future.

sly wolf
09-13-2013, 09:02 AM
I have a few points to make about this thread which are as follows:

1. Saying that this is untouched ground on consoles so trion have nothing to gauge by is wrong as final fantasy was on the xbox 360 and ps3 and also DC universe online is massive on the ps3 at the moment and has been around for nearly 2 years so trion have got plenty to go by on the consoles.

2. That said DCUO did have alot of problems for nearly a year and it still does have a few bugs but on the whole plays very well with no lag or server down time so i agree trion should be given some more time before saying that defiance is a flop.

3. It seems alot of people are complaining that no one is online which is not the case on the ps3 eu servers as i find quite a few people playing (when i can stay on the server for more then half hour)

4. People keep saying gta5 will kill this off with its online play BUT lets not forget only 16 players will be in each game world as in red dead so thats not really massivly online is it? so compairing the two is a little redundant.

Hope these points are of interest and in closing may i just say i hope series 2 and the game both come along with leaps and bounds

Market
09-13-2013, 10:39 AM
I have a few points to make about this thread which are as follows:

1. Saying that this is untouched ground on consoles so trion have nothing to gauge by is wrong as final fantasy was on the xbox 360 and ps3 and also DC universe online is massive on the ps3 at the moment and has been around for nearly 2 years so trion have got plenty to go by on the consoles.

2. That said DCUO did have alot of problems for nearly a year and it still does have a few bugs but on the whole plays very well with no lag or server down time so i agree trion should be given some more time before saying that defiance is a flop.

3. It seems alot of people are complaining that no one is online which is not the case on the ps3 eu servers as i find quite a few people playing (when i can stay on the server for more then half hour)

4. People keep saying gta5 will kill this off with its online play BUT lets not forget only 16 players will be in each game world as in red dead so thats not really massivly online is it? so compairing the two is a little redundant.

Hope these points are of interest and in closing may i just say i hope series 2 and the game both come along with leaps and bounds

Thank you for pointing these things out, I stand corrected by your first point. I should have said comparatively they didn't have much to go on for previous titles attempting the same thing instead of this being the first of its kind. I welcome this sort of thing wherever I am lacking in my information.

I just finished a Siege on the NA Xbox servers that had at least 40 other people in attendance, so I share your feelings about those saying no one plays this game. I'm sure Trion would like many, many more to be playing their game, but it's certainly not "dead". I'm sorry to hear that you are one of the several people having connection problems still. Thankfully, that problem has nearly vanished for me. I was logged in for more than five hours yesterday without a hitch, and going on three hours today with the same story. It truly stinks that not everyone is sharing this experience.

Again, thank you for the fact-checking!!

PseudoCool
09-13-2013, 11:03 AM
Thank you for pointing these things out, I stand corrected by your first point. I should have said comparatively they didn't have much to go on for previous titles attempting the same thing instead of this being the first of its kind. I welcome this sort of thing wherever I am lacking in my information.

I just finished a Siege on the NA Xbox servers that had at least 40 other people in attendance, so I share your feelings about those saying no one plays this game. I'm sure Trion would like many, many more to be playing their game, but it's certainly not "dead". I'm sorry to hear that you are one of the several people having connection problems still. Thankfully, that problem has nearly vanished for me. I was logged in for more than five hours yesterday without a hitch, and going on three hours today with the same story. It truly stinks that not everyone is sharing this experience.

Again, thank you for the fact-checking!!


Here's the thing I don't think people are getting about "server population".. it's not just about where your standing or who's on your map.. but who's in your phase.

Literally.. I know people that that's all they do.. go to arkfalls, make friends, add friends, then follow their friends around when their in different phases. THis way their phase hopping to find the arkfalls and sieges as quickly as possible.. they they zip there and start kicking butts while the rest of their friends list and/or clan follows them.

It actually works out really well. Last night I think we had probably 90 people at a Monolith, followed within minutes by about 55 people or more at just one location of the Sieges.

Then you equate that to the growth in my clan alone (since I can't speak for others), and the game isn't just in "survival mode".. new players are coming in and enjoying the game, joining up, learning, and helping bring other new players in. And there's just enough of us "old timers" here from launch and before to let them know how epically BAD of a move it is to buy bits. Sadly.. but, when Trion get's things sorted, we'll all start buying bits again.. yes.. its a vicious cycle..

Pavel Andreievich Chekov
09-13-2013, 11:04 AM
Stop feeding this TrollBoy.

Market
09-13-2013, 11:15 AM
Here's the thing I don't think people are getting about "server population".. it's not just about where your standing or who's on your map.. but who's in your phase.

Literally.. I know people that that's all they do.. go to arkfalls, make friends, add friends, then follow their friends around when their in different phases. THis way their phase hopping to find the arkfalls and sieges as quickly as possible.. they they zip there and start kicking butts while the rest of their friends list and/or clan follows them.

It actually works out really well. Last night I think we had probably 90 people at a Monolith, followed within minutes by about 55 people or more at just one location of the Sieges.

Then you equate that to the growth in my clan alone (since I can't speak for others), and the game isn't just in "survival mode".. new players are coming in and enjoying the game, joining up, learning, and helping bring other new players in. And there's just enough of us "old timers" here from launch and before to let them know how epically BAD of a move it is to buy bits. Sadly.. but, when Trion get's things sorted, we'll all start buying bits again.. yes.. its a vicious cycle..

I couldn't agree more! I have to start adding that phase thing in with my responses, as well. I know that's the case but always forget to point it out here. Just because there are only fifteen people standing in Iron Demon that you can see, that does not mean that is the only shard open with people in it.

Thanks for this!

PseudoCool
09-13-2013, 11:19 AM
I couldn't agree more! I have to start adding that phase thing in with my responses, as well. I know that's the case but always forget to point it out here. Just because there are only fifteen people standing in Iron Demon that you can see, that does not mean that is the only shard open with people in it.

Thanks for this!

Your welcome.. and just as an aside: There have been MANY times where I haven't been able to get into a phase to do an arkfall because it was FULL. Not sure what the phase cap is, but since I've been in arkfalls with well over 100 people.. Defiance doesn't show any signs of slowing down it's player retention and new player recruiting at all.

JBoneFX
09-13-2013, 11:19 AM
Hate to sound hollow, but you either take the extra money away (which is now impossible) or give the same amount to those who didn't receive it in the first place.

How can you forget to put the date range in your DB update? You didn't do it by hour, you just did it by day and said you wanted to make sure you got everyone. C'mon, you knew when the servers were down, you had a nice long window to not F it up and there was a mistake made...

Dahanese, please stop letting the various teams tell you something that you repeat here without getting an expert to filter it first... Wanting to make sure you got everyone is an insulting statement and no way that can be true...

If you wanted to 'oops!' some money you would have done it for everyone, not just certain people...

Market
09-13-2013, 11:45 AM
@JBoneFX: I'm not worried about the Scrip being given to people who purchased the blade after the cost reduction. I understand that some people are, and that some are angry that there doesn't seem to be a solution to it that's fair to everyone. The way I look at it is those people who got the error in their favor received the equivalent to selling a few high-end orange items to other players. It's no skin of my backside, it really isn't going to have an in-game effect on those that didn't get the bonus. At least, I don't see how it would. Maybe someone that's angry about it could enlighten me on the subject.

JBoneFX
09-13-2013, 11:49 AM
It's just a poor excuse made for a mistake. I for one could have used that money to payout clan members for winning events on out clan event nights. But besides that, I'm getting tired of seeing excuses for errors made. They just need to own up to them instead of making up bogus reasons...

Rasczak
09-13-2013, 09:13 PM
@Market: I just wanted to pop in, one last time, since you replied and someone PMed me about it (don't ask, I don't know why either). I enjoy a good debate, and that's all I consider this. Nothing personal on any level, mate.

I'm with you, though, that those who blatantly flame and insult Trion Worlds are in the wrong. As customers, yes, we have the right to voice it to a company when we are displeased (or pleased) with their product or service, and it's no secret I've been critical. But that's also because I enjoyed 2 years in Rift (give or take), and it is a solid game and continues to be so; but Defiance is, really, subpar to several indie games I have Alpha and Beta tested--- and I am talking Kickstarter backed projects. That is a terrible and inexcusable situation for a AAA developer.

But that voice should not berate or insult. Hell, I would ignore that customer as well.

I can't speak for what happened on the development or management end with this project. I don't know, and don't have any inside info. I won't even hazard a guess, and will only state the obvious: whatever system they used to develop this game: failed. I'm not even sure what they attempted with the State of the Game address, which simply regurgitated the same working on it, in the pipe, and soon that have been stated since week 1 of launch; and even for the exact, same topics: Chat, Weapons, Progression, UI. One would hope that 5 months later, they would have had something more solid to tell than the same sort of info Nathan gave months ago.

/shrug.

My moving on is no loss to Trion, though. I refused to buy the DLC, and won't spent a penny on Bits for the game, so I was a non-revenue source anyway. I wish them luck, though. They need it.

@MacDeath: Thanks, mate. Hopefully, one day they can actually turn this game around. If not, I got my purchase price out of it in play-time, so I don't feel cheated. I will, however, take Trion Worlds with some salt from here on out; from the hollow statements made about Defiance for the past 5 months, to the blatant misleading they did about Rift F2P circa March 2013 (which, based on it being clearly stated in 2 interviews that Rift was not going F2P saw me purchase Storm Legion for $50 for a friend; only to have F2P announced 2 months later and stated to have been in the works for close to a year).

Whether it is a matter of the departments not knowing what the others are doing, or something more obvious, the confidence and trust they once had from me and the wife is gone.

sly wolf
09-13-2013, 11:22 PM
Firstly @ market your welcome for my points and im glad you took them in the sprit in which i intended them, Also may i add i played for 4-5 hours last night (friday night) eu time on the ps3 server and apart from the odd bug which is excusable nothing went wrong i enjoyed some arkfull's with quite a fair amount of players and had a very enjoyable time THEN four of us decided to do some coop we started playing and half way though i was disconnected from the server it was very annoying and i could't get back on for ages and by the time i did i could't find the people i was playing with so i turned it off and played diablo 3 instead, My last point is I see a trend here where the xbox servers and bugs seem to be alot further along the fixed road then the ps3 not sure the reason for this but it is a fact, Once again hope my points are of interest to what on the whole has been a very interesting and mature thread

Market
09-14-2013, 10:35 AM
@Rasczak: I am the same way, love a meaningful conversation about things, even when there are disagreements to be had. If everyone agreed on everything, this would be a boring world!

With that in mind, I wish I could disagree with the rest of what you had to say there, but alas, I cannot. I only hope that conversations like this one will get them headed in the right direction. I read through the State of the Game article and I have to agree with what a few have said in the past. Words are great, but until it's seen, that's what it amounts to. Personally, I'd even like to see them say when they'd *like* to have these things done. I understand that they do not want (and cannot afford) to promise things that they will later regret due to inability to deliver. However, knowing what their internal schedule looks like could help it look like more than just more of what the old EP had to say time after time.

@sly wolf: I'm glad you're enjoying this conversation as much as I am! I'm totally shocked that it's gone this long without more than just a few nonconstructive elements. While I'm glad you had the hours of uninterrupted game time, I have to share your frustration with the timeouts. After all of this, I think I jinxed myself last night! lol I was timed out around 5 times in a matter of as many minutes. I reloaded the game from the dash and it stopped, but I'm painfully aware that others are not this lucky. From what I'm reading, you seem to be right about the issues being more prolific on the PS3. Point blank, it shouldn't be that way on any of the platforms. Here's to hoping these things are ironed out in the very near future.

Realistically, this is all we can do to help them make things better, but I understand not everyone here is going to be reasonable in sharing their issues and ideas. At least we can fly above that here!

sly wolf
09-14-2013, 03:13 PM
Definace's biggest problem is no offline mode where by even if you lose connection you can still play and earn xp and this is something trion need to address because next year destiny comes out and it has that feature so does elder scrolls online, If trion brought in a offline mode alot more people would be alot more happy

Market
09-15-2013, 05:39 PM
Definace's biggest problem is no offline mode where by even if you lose connection you can still play and earn xp and this is something trion need to address because next year destiny comes out and it has that feature so does elder scrolls online, If trion brought in a offline mode alot more people would be alot more happy

I'm not sure I'd agree with it being the biggest problem, but I see what you're saying! lol

I have mixed emotions about this, actually. On one hand, it would be a good move to allow the casual player the ability to play the game without being connected to their servers, but I also think it would open up the game up to be modded much more easily. I admit, and am glad to admit, that I know very little about such things. I have no need to know how they do this, but if character information were saved locally instead of on their servers, I'd imagine the game would eventually be flooded with modded gear.

As for Destiny, I won't be joining the masses that are going to flood over to that game, but I sincerely hope it lives up to the 180mph hype train carrying it. I have a sinking suspicion that many of the issues that are occurring with Defiance will also be a problem with that title. No way to tell until it releases, of course. However, I see many people in various places championing that game like it will have no flaws. Not that I'm saying that's what you're doing here, not in the least. I hope for the sake of everyone buying it that it is seriously lacking in issues. Otherwise, there will be a similar outcome as there is here.

Back to Defiance, I also hope Trion gets things in high gear before that title releases or they will likely see a mass migration of players leaving. More than have already.

I have hope it can be done, but I'm not blind. I think conversations like this one can only help them in the long run.

JxSiN
09-15-2013, 05:43 PM
But these conversations have carried on for quite a while and Trion not only hasn't done anything about it, they MADE IT WORSE. A little piece of me still wants this game to turn around and become the potential that it has, but from everything I have witnessed from being a day 1 player, rationality starts setting in. Honestly, I feel the only thing that can save this game is for Trion to sell it to another company. I really hope I am wrong.... history says I'm not

Market
09-15-2013, 06:46 PM
"made it worse" is something I feel is subject to opinion, and a bit vague at that. While I agree there are things that were better prior to certain patches (such as the layout for the chat system, Mod caches, and Volge emergency drops to name a few), there are things I feel were much worse before now. This is where I feel things are subject to opinion and personal experiences when it comes to overall connection stability, the reliability of the chat system, phase and group issues, lag, and some of the smaller problems like ammo reserve and loss of perks in load outs.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware that these conversations have taken place since before release! However, I'm a big proponent of "doing things until..." much like trying to correct behavior in a child. You don't try things a few times and give up when they don't work. You do them until they change. It doesn't help that many of these discussions have degraded into flaming each other and the company, and at that point, the drive for change is lost. Thankfully, that hasn't really happened with this one yet!

It's going to be up to each player to decide when enough is enough, I get this as clear as day. For me, they have a bit of room yet before I will give up. While we've not seen answers with definitive dates on when things will be addressed, I'm hopeful with the evidence that at least the Community team is listening and responding. It's a start. It's late in the day, as it were, and I get that. They needed to change tack months ago, and by this I mean them being totally transparent about direction and priority. They still have a distance to go on this one for many people to have any sort of faith that this game will turn around. For many, that ship sailed and sank. I don't slight people in the least for giving up.

For me, it's something I just can't do yet. I've invested too much time and money to walk away at this point. I have to keep reminding myself of my first point in the OP, that this is a company that wants this game to succeed. Are they perfect at letting us know with results? Heck no. But I do feel like the people here who are listening genuinely take our gripes and issues seriously and aren't lying to us when they say they're getting them to the people who can facilitate change. The bottom line is that if this game fails, it's likely many of them will be without jobs. I'm certain none of them want that.

I hope you're wrong, too. I really do. I am a realist and painfully aware that they need to start slinging buckets of water out of this thing, and they need to do it yesterfrigginday. I have a suspicion that many of the Trion people are brutally aware of this as well. The true test will be with what they do with that knowledge and how quickly we start to see things turn around. We haven't seen much yet, I understand. Lots of talk and not much action. From what I understand, they've just moved the staff into their main offices, so I'm hoping to see that have a major effect on things in the very near future. I won't believe anything until I see it, however.

Again, the only thing that can come of discussions like this one will be positive for them as long as we keep it as it has been. I stand and applaud most that have responded to this thread, I'm very happy to see there are other people who can keep things civil around here.

At the end of it all, we will know we did what we could to help them. It's going to be on them entirely should it fail. For the record, I genuinely hope that never happens.

JxSiN
09-15-2013, 06:59 PM
I too have a lot of time and money invested. I used to think that Trion must want the game to succeed for the very same reasons. However, a conversation I had with a buddy a week or so ago made me rethink some of that. My buddy had some very good points.

This game is tied to a TV show, as well as have other sponsors (Dodge), so they are under contractual obligations. That contract must mean they have to stay and work on this game until that contract is up (let's say 5 DLC's or the end of the show's season 2). Now we noticed they aren't fixing major issues in this game but changing things which many assume will lead to more issues. So what if they really want to break the game in such a way that people quit playing. Then they can go back to the people they have a contract with and say "Hey, it's not our fault. People just don't play anymore so we have to shut servers down/stop working on latest DLC/break our obligation because of an outstanding clause, etc". They are out of a contract because of a loophole, they don't have to worry about the "future" of defiance anymore.

The staff has already been gutted and relocated to the home office. The same home office where they are working on their other games. Will Defiance's skeleton crew be out of a job? No. Out of a headache, yes. Chances are Trick and the other devs will be moved over to their other games, especially their upcoming ones. Morgana, Oat, and Elizabeth are already managers for the other forums, so they won't be out of a job either.

What if changing core mechanics and KNOWING it will cause issues which will drive people away and not work on current ongoing issues IS their escape plan because of the reasons stated above?

Market
09-15-2013, 07:53 PM
While I can't say those theories are incorrect, I can say with some degree of certainty that it would be bad for the company overall. Pubic opinion matters heavily, and if they were to do these things for those reasons, it could seriously hurt the public opinion of everything they do in the future. I'm personally in that boat with a few game companies out there due to huge mistakes they've made with a certain titles. I know I'm just one person, but I'm dead sure I'm not the only one out there that will not trust anything a company does based on how they handled one specific product.

Is that to say that these theories are impossible? Damn, I wish I could say no. I don't want to believe it's possible, but as I've said since the beginning, I try to ground myself in reality. The reality of it is that they'd do much better overall if these things were not true and they are just floundering under the pressure of past mistakes and a very rocky future. I would hope they didn't start the entire project with the intent to fail. I would also hope that these are not the last resort actions to tank the project and save themselves from these contracts.

As far as the major problems going on that are not being fixed, I would simply hope that they are not able to discuss the inner workings to avoid promising something they cannot deliver upon. I guess the next major patch will speak volumes on this subject. None of us know everything they're doing, and I hope these fixes are part of that lack of knowledge on our parts.

What I would really like to see from Trion is a total transparency policy. In a perfect world, they should fish and not just cut bait. We should get a State of Trion address, something to the effect of a bullet list of things they are working on right now and when they would like to see them rolled out. Leading this off with "We do not know at present when these things will be ready or when they will appear in the live game, but are things you need to know to have continued faith in our efforts to fix."

Sadly, I have to agree with those on the forums and the Community Blog that liken the recent State of the Game address with the words written by the previous Executive Producer. I'm taking them as positive notes, but nothing more than words until we see them in the game. Actions speak louder, that's for sure. Especially with the last 5+ months as a gauge.

Again, I really hope you're wrong. lol

hey u
09-15-2013, 07:55 PM
From what I have read and understand from the day I read this to right now I almost shed a tear of joy and I personally freaked out with tears of joy when I heard Chris Lena was replacing Nathan Richardsson. From that day I seem to notice like 3-4 things right with 2-6 things wrong or so since I heard Chris Lena replaced him.

From what I can recall every time Nathan Richardsson did try to fix something it was maybe if that 1 thing fix or attempted to fix with that either fix or more broke with 5-10 new bugs. I can honestly say I have seen a difference in just how the map feels, enemy Ai and in world difficulty seems to be harder now and over the past 3 weeks I go down and die lotS more AND I LOVE IT

IDK if I wrong but I as I recall when Nathan Richardsson was at Trion I think I may have only died a 2-3 times. Just seems to me since I read the post on Trion webpage on his post introducing himself that he is now on the job I have died up in the game soooooooo many more times SO THANK YOU CHRIS LENA

Yes things could be WAY BETTER but they are on the way I think

Market
09-15-2013, 08:12 PM
@hey u: I would agree and my experiences with Defiance have only improved, not only since Mr. Lena took over, but ongoing since that first patch after release. I've run into the added bugs, sure. However, the major things perplexing my enjoyment of the game have improved. I know I get floored by the Volge when I'm not paying attention... hell, even when I am!! lol

I also agree that they have a good distance to go with the game to make it as close to perfect as it can be, but it's a darn sight better than it was under the previous leadership. At least people are talking to us much more frequently here. That's a good start.

(off topic, I LOVE the avatar... Nothing but Trouble was a fantastic movie, very underrated!)

hey u
09-15-2013, 08:16 PM
@hey u: I would agree and my experiences with Defiance have only improved, not only since Mr. Lena took over, but ongoing since that first patch after release. I've run into the added bugs, sure. However, the major things perplexing my enjoyment of the game have improved. I know I get floored by the Volge when I'm not paying attention... hell, even when I am!! lol

I also agree that they have a good distance to go with the game to make it as close to perfect as it can be, but it's a darn sight better than it was under the previous leadership. At least people are talking to us much more frequently here. That's a good start.

(off topic, I LOVE the avatar... Nothing but Trouble was a fantastic movie, very underrated!)

"I know I get floored by the Volge when I'm not paying attention... hell, even when I am!! lol" THIS IS SO WELL SAID

MacDeath
09-15-2013, 10:01 PM
I too have a lot of time and money invested. I used to think that Trion must want the game to succeed for the very same reasons. However, a conversation I had with a buddy a week or so ago made me rethink some of that. My buddy had some very good points.

This game is tied to a TV show, as well as have other sponsors (Dodge), so they are under contractual obligations. That contract must mean they have to stay and work on this game until that contract is up (let's say 5 DLC's or the end of the show's season 2). Now we noticed they aren't fixing major issues in this game but changing things which many assume will lead to more issues. So what if they really want to break the game in such a way that people quit playing. Then they can go back to the people they have a contract with and say "Hey, it's not our fault. People just don't play anymore so we have to shut servers down/stop working on latest DLC/break our obligation because of an outstanding clause, etc". They are out of a contract because of a loophole, they don't have to worry about the "future" of defiance anymore.

The staff has already been gutted and relocated to the home office. The same home office where they are working on their other games. Will Defiance's skeleton crew be out of a job? No. Out of a headache, yes. Chances are Trick and the other devs will be moved over to their other games, especially their upcoming ones. Morgana, Oat, and Elizabeth are already managers for the other forums, so they won't be out of a job either.

What if changing core mechanics and KNOWING it will cause issues which will drive people away and not work on current ongoing issues IS their escape plan because of the reasons stated above?

Shutting down Defiance doesn't fit with Trion's master plan. Their goal is to be a publisher and host for games, NOT primarily a developer. They did develop two games, Rift and Defiance to demo their ability to host both MMORPGs and MMO Shooters. They also co-developed an MMORTS game, End of Nations. If Trion were to shut down Defiance it has a big impact on their master plan. Now, Trion could sell Defiance to another dev studio who would agree to continue to host the game on Trion's platform. THAT would advance the master plan.

ArcheAge fits the master plan better than Rift or Defiance. Watch what they do to roll out AA to the western world. That will tell us if they are a serious player in the gaming industry.

Black_Adder_
09-16-2013, 06:21 AM
I have no idea about what people are talking here, just wanted to answer the question "Trion Inc, and what this means to you". Trion Inc means some company that as I understand created the game named Defiance that I play a lot. I don't know anything else about Trion and I haven't seen Defiance TV show (I also don't plan to).