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View Full Version : Devs: Maybe the Patch Doesn't Devalue our Old Weapons? Please Answer



Overtkill21
10-16-2013, 02:14 PM
Ok so this is giving me pause - the new rolls I have seen are weaker than the old. It looks like it will take the common roll plus the uncommon roll to equal the old common roll.

Of course this is just a few weapons I have seen - we need a larger sample size - but let's say that the new rolls are barely adding up to the old rolls - this would make this patch a vastly different beast.

So here's my new question(s):


Do the new rolls have less effect than the old rolls?

Example: I have a favorite VBI AR with 1.25 Crit Mult as the white common roll - do the new weapons even have this roll available?

If they do have a crit roll available is it actually lessened in effect? - say to x1.05 Crit Mult for the white roll and x1.10 Crit Mult for the green and so on...


I would love for a dev to answer this question so I made it, its' own thread.

(For the rest of us would you be so kind as to provide any stats (color coded if you please) for new oranges and purples you pull. I would like to start crunching numbers.)

crasher
10-16-2013, 02:22 PM
I have no idea how common it's GOING to be, but I've noticed comparing several of the new versions of weapons at vendors and drops/rewards Vs weapons I already have have in my inv:

** The new versions have no slots, and no mechanism to ADD slots.

No clue how pervasive, but I've seen several like this.

Chevota
10-16-2013, 02:25 PM
Maverick has assured me he is on the job, updating his Roll thread, explaining it and showing the new functions of the Rolls... Keep a keen eye on it...

We shall find out soon... So many tears have been shed for the Patch, and it may have only FURTHERED the value of "Old" guns.

(id link it but im lazy, and he'll be around eventually... or someone with a sig Link)

Overtkill21
10-16-2013, 02:32 PM
Maverick has assured me he is on the job, updating his Roll thread, explaining it and showing the new functions of the Rolls... Keep a keen eye on it...

We shall find out soon... So many tears have been shed for the Patch, and it may have only FURTHERED the value of "Old" guns.

(id link it but im lazy, and he'll be around eventually... or someone with a sig Link)

I'll message him to not change his old thread - the old numbers will be just as valuable as the new. I was already on there and have copied the old rolls to a spreadsheet to compare to the new ones I am able to glean.

I would honestly just like an honest Developer answer here - is that too much to ask for?

Chevota
10-16-2013, 02:41 PM
I would honestly just like an honest Developer answer here - is that too much to ask for?

No, they have picked up the communication in the past month or so. But with the complete list that Maverick made, you may not need a Dev to answer. You may just be able to do the math yourself when he updates/adds on to his guide...

But gl getting Trick to answer, bout the only 1 that will i think.

Critical Errors
10-16-2013, 03:34 PM
This may help:

VBI ASSAULT RIFLE
= 1500
= NO NANO!
= RUN-N-GUN
Rolls:
XP = untouched (Still opening mod slots)
= x1.05 Mag
= -0.30 Accuracy
= x1.25 Crit
= 15% Grenade on kill
= x1.10 DMG

Disappointing to see all these no Nano weapons, but at least the rolls are good. Also, even our old 5 rolled weapons appear to be lower quality to the new 6 roll weapons. Back to the grind I guess!

Overtkill21
10-16-2013, 04:09 PM
This may help:

VBI ASSAULT RIFLE
= 1500
= NO NANO!
= RUN-N-GUN
Rolls:
XP = untouched (Still opening mod slots)
= x1.05 Mag
= -0.30 Accuracy
= x1.25 Crit
= 15% Grenade on kill
= x1.10 DMG

Disappointing to see all these no Nano weapons, but at least the rolls are good. Also, even our old 5 rolled weapons appear to be lower quality to the new 6 roll weapons. Back to the grind I guess!

Hmmm, well that is disconcerting, the blue roll is the 1.25 Crit Mult and the orange roll of x1.10 DMG is entirely new on an AR. Yeah, nevermind on this - patch remains a hose to us veteran players.

That 1500 VBI is going to have clearly better stats than any old VBI AR even if it has fantastic rolls. The fact that the blue roll takes on a max value and the orange roll creates a new max value kind of clinches it.

SO a big nevermind on this thread.

Vets back to being pissed, noobs back to wondering why we're pissed...

dahanese
10-16-2013, 04:38 PM
Good question! On common rolls for assault rifles over EGO rating 1000 those are now rare bonuses and the common rolls are smaller bonuses. The gun you are talking about specifically, though, has not changed (same with all other guns that already exist). The only thing that has changed for guns that existed before this patch is that there is now an across the board base damage increase on all guns based on their rarity.

jr_smurf_dog
10-16-2013, 04:41 PM
Only if our old ars got a blue roll... Is that possible dahanese for trion to give blue rolls to everyones old guns? Alot of people are quiting right now because it took alot to get a great ar with 5 rolls, now their are 6 rolls... Imagine how thats gonna effect the economy.

Chevota
10-16-2013, 04:48 PM
Its not about the AR's... 5 vs 6 is ok, nothing new... Its the other weapons that MAYBE had 4 rolls, all now have 6.

Youre talking a 2-3 roll increase. But the point of grinding games, like Defiance, is to find NEW guns. If you quit because new stuff comes out, you'll quit every game developed.

And theyve said no to replacing old guns. For the love of god, they said NO. Its too dangerous to do. Hell they couldnt even get through NEW guns without a glitch, do you still really want them re-doing old guns??

Overtkill21
10-16-2013, 04:53 PM
And theyve said no to replacing old guns. For the love of god, they said NO. Its too dangerous to do. Hell they couldnt even get through NEW guns without a glitch, do you still really want them re-doing old guns??

Yeah this excuse would fly if they weren't already changing grenade rolls on existing weapons and if they hadn't already changed the mag rolls on sawed offs...so if it was done in April with 1000's more playing and it didn't kill the game and it is being done again with DLC 2 and the grenade rolls it is rather disingenuous to think it's just too dangerous to be done.

jr_smurf_dog
10-16-2013, 04:55 PM
Yeah this excuse would fly if they weren't already changing grenade rolls on existing weapons and if they hadn't already changed the mag rolls on sawed offs...so if it was done in April with 1000's more playing and it didn't kill the game and it is being done again with DLC 2 and the grenade rolls it is rather disingenuous to think it's just too dangerous to be done.
Couldnt have said it better... Really lol

maverick07
10-16-2013, 05:30 PM
I'll message him to not change his old thread - the old numbers will be just as valuable as the new. I was already on there and have copied the old rolls to a spreadsheet to compare to the new ones I am able to glean.

I would honestly just like an honest Developer answer here - is that too much to ask for?

Hey guys I'm actually about to go in and make some changes. Don't worry as I will be keeping the old bonuses on there as a reference!

Something else I figured out that might be useful to you guys while I was on and sorry if it was already mentioned on here. Here are the base damage number increases for weapons now.

Green - 3% DMG increase
Blue - 6% DMG increase
Purple - 10% DMG increase
Orange - 15% DMG increase

I should also mention that all of your old five stat AR/SMG/LMGs are still very good weapons at least all they are missing is that now low value Common roll.

I'll use the orange VBI AR I have as an example. If you have old weapons with good rolls before they might not be as bad as you think after these changes.

8% EGO Duration on Kill - Mastery
1.05 DMG - White (Now Blue value) roll
1.10 Mag - Green
25% Stowed Clip on Kill - Purple
1.10 Fire Rate - Orange
Missing a common (White) value roll is all (Ex. 1.05 Mag, 0.95 Reload, 0.10 Acc)

This thing is still as good has new stuff coming out IMO. With a 15% DMG increase from being orange this thing is now doing a cool 301 DMG per shot on a VBI AR.

maverick07
10-16-2013, 05:57 PM
Ok so this is giving me pause - the new rolls I have seen are weaker than the old. It looks like it will take the common roll plus the uncommon roll to equal the old common roll.

Of course this is just a few weapons I have seen - we need a larger sample size - but let's say that the new rolls are barely adding up to the old rolls - this would make this patch a vastly different beast.

So here's my new question(s):


Do the new rolls have less effect than the old rolls?

Example: I have a favorite VBI AR with 1.25 Crit Mult as the white common roll - do the new weapons even have this roll available?

If they do have a crit roll available is it actually lessened in effect? - say to x1.05 Crit Mult for the white roll and x1.10 Crit Mult for the green and so on...


I would love for a dev to answer this question so I made it, its' own thread.

(For the rest of us would you be so kind as to provide any stats (color coded if you please) for new oranges and purples you pull. I would like to start crunching numbers.)

But yeah Overt to answer your OP it seems that is how it works now. I was on with a friend and we bought a bunch of lockboxes and looked at a lot of different weapons.

And I believe this is why they couldn't fix old weapons. They were changing the system completely and they wanted the value of bonuses go up in rarity. It makes sense and tbh, I think this is how it should of been from day one, but this was the only way they could have done it with the system. They might have been able to reset everyones guns but I'd bet that would have pissed off a lot of people too.

Would have pissed me off if they reset all my guns. I'd rather just have my Double Stalker, double Fire Rate, Syphon SAW with the rolls I like now then to likely end up with no nano and rolls I don't like.

Oh yeah also. Just me or are no nano guns coming out a lot more post patch? Did get a Orange Pulser earlier but no nano. Same for my friend's Orange Berserker shotty.

It also looks like a lot of blues and purples I was running into had no nano. More stuff than usual I thought.

Shogo_Yahagi
10-17-2013, 06:29 AM
For the love of god, they said NO. Its too dangerous to do. Hell they couldnt even get through NEW guns without a glitch, do you still really want them re-doing old guns??

They've said lots of crap that has turned out not to be true. This smells like more of the same. Saying don't make it so.

They've never had problems retroactively nerfing weapons in the past, they ought to be able to fix them for a change. It wasn't too dangerous when they decided to turn all of our shotgun mag bonuses into useless crap.

Spiltmilk
10-17-2013, 06:51 AM
You guys should read the "no nano thread" (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?137817-No-NANO-!!!!!!!!!&p=1300735#post1300735).

I haven't been able to log in to check out this new patch but I'm curious how significantly they reduced the chance of nano rolls on the new weapons. While I welcome the new white bonus rolls, I wouldn't give up a nano effect for it.

I rather they get rid of the white bonus roll on the weapons and give them all nano rolls, but this way is alright. I get it, they are increasing the rarity of the nano effect. But I look forward to them adding nano convertor mods at all the vendor locations like the "Bug n' Shack" vendor. I won't be on for two weeks but I'm crossing my fingers they'll have them added when I get back hehe.

Shogo_Yahagi
10-17-2013, 07:51 AM
For what it's worth, cleaning up the database is a simple 3-step procedure.

1. If weapon has a nano-effect in the rare bonus slot, award nano effect and re-roll bonus.

2. For each bonus, check against a table of "bad bonuses" that have been removed from that weapon's bonus table. If the existing bonus is on the bad bonus table, re-roll the bonus, else leave bonus in place.

3. Check all bonus slots that should be filled under the new system based on the weapon's EGO level and rarity. If the slot is empty, roll a bonus as if it were a new bonus.

Simple stuff, really, and super easy to automate. This eliminates the problem of nano effects being wiped out when rares are re-rolled, and it prevents wiping out or nerfing the old "common bonuses" on some weapons--if the devs want to keep a bonus, all they have to do is not add it to the list of bad bonuses.

Does this result in a few weapons that may be slightly better than a newly rolled weapon? Sure. You can consider those weapons a bonus for the players who get them, and rest comfortably in the knowledge that it is a small price to pay for not screwing over your most loyal customers.

More importantly, does it devalue the inventory of every player in the game. No. No it does not.

Zugo
10-17-2013, 07:56 AM
Missing a common (White) value roll is all (Ex. 1.05 Mag, 0.95 Reload, 0.10 Acc)

This thing is still as good has new stuff coming out IMO. With a 15% DMG increase from being orange this thing is now doing a cool 301 DMG per shot on a VBI AR.

I hope people don't mass scrap their old gear. I wouldn't even notice the missing white roll when there are 5% damage increases across the board based on rarity.

Overtkill21
10-17-2013, 08:11 AM
I hope people don't mass scrap their old gear. I wouldn't even notice the missing white roll when there are 5% damage increases across the board based on rarity.

The missing white roll would only apply to ARs, SMGs (sans VOT Pulser) and the Disruptor...all other weapons will be missing much more...seeing as how they don't have a former common roll to fall back on they are missing that great roll as well as the new blue roll...

With SAWs, Thunders, Rockers, pistols, sawed offs, combat & pump shotguns, infectors, sniper rifles, rocket launchers, detonators, and especially BMGs you'll notice the difference markedly.

Zugo
10-17-2013, 08:13 AM
The missing white roll would only apply to ARs, SMGs (sans VOT Pulser) and the Disruptor...all other weapons will be missing much more...seeing as how they don't have a former common roll to fall back on they are missing that great roll as well as the new blue roll...

With SAWs, Thunders, Rockers, pistols, sawed offs, combat & pump shotguns, infectors, sniper rifles, rocket launchers, detonators, and especially BMGs you'll notice the difference markedly.

Going off of maverick07's findings it looks like our old white roll is the new blue roll, or am I mistaken?

Chevota
10-17-2013, 08:16 AM
Going off of maverick07's findings it looks like our old white roll is the new blue roll, or am I mistaken?

not mistaken, thats exactly right... The old White, is our Current Blue. It takes a NEW White + Green to = the OLD Blue, if i read correctly.

They didnt just add new rolls, they balanced them quite properly too. White rolls are no where as good as they once were. So all these people moaning and whining about "Devalue" and "its crap, more rolls now" refuse to investigate differences. They fail to see the forest through the trees.

Of course its not the case for EVERY gun... But the most vocal people against NEW guns say they had PERFECT guns. Which it turns out, werent so perfect then huh?

Zugo
10-17-2013, 08:20 AM
not mistaken, thats exactly right... The old White, is our Current Blue. It takes a NEW White + Green to = the OLD Blue, if i read correctly.

They didnt just add new rolls, they balanced them quite properly too. White rolls are no where as good as they once were. So all these people moaning and whining about "Devalue" and "its crap, more rolls now" refuse to investigate differences. They fail to see the forest through the trees.

Ok, that's what I took from it too. Now figure in the +5% damage steps between rarity and there's no way the new purples are better than our old "good" oranges.

Overtkill21
10-17-2013, 08:25 AM
Going off of maverick07's findings it looks like our old white roll is the new blue roll, or am I mistaken?

According to the dev explanation on the blog the old common roll is equivalent sometimes to the new orange roll and sometimes to the new blue roll.

However weapons that had no common roll - like the weapons I mentioned - will miss out not only on the new common roll (sure no big loss) but also on the blue roll - which since it is basically an old orange roll - will be a marked difference.

Zugo
10-17-2013, 08:33 AM
According to the dev explanation on the blog the old common roll is equivalent sometimes to the new orange roll and sometimes to the new blue roll.

However weapons that had no common roll - like the weapons I mentioned - will miss out not only on the new common roll (sure no big loss) but also on the blue roll - which since it is basically an old orange roll - will be a marked difference.

I wasn't aware of weapons missing the common roll pre-patch. Maybe it was possible to miss the common roll? I know I have old orange sniper rifles with the old white roll.

Overtkill21
10-17-2013, 08:37 AM
I wasn't aware of weapons missing the common roll pre-patch. Maybe it was possible to miss the common roll? I know I have old orange sniper rifles with the old white roll.

No weapons had the common roll prior to this patch - except ARs, SMGs (but not the VOT Pulser), and the Disruptor - no other weapon got the common roll. You are mistaken about your old sniper rifle.

Pre Patch Orange ARs, SMGs (except the VOT Pulser) and the Disruptor could get:


Green Uncommon Roll
Purple Epic Roll
Orange Legendary Roll
White Common Roll
White Mastery Roll


Pre Patch Orange Everything Else could only get:


Green Uncommon Roll
Purple Epic Roll
Orange Legendary Roll
White Mastery Roll

Deunan
10-17-2013, 10:50 AM
It seems that the new nano effect bonus role is significantly nerfed compared to the prior blue nano effect bonus role. Given the absence of converters with synergies that's something else that might maintain value for a legendary weapon. Personally I'd rather have a legendary assault rifle or LMG with a syphon effect than have one with a blue weapon stat bonus and no nano effect

rebtattoo
10-17-2013, 10:53 AM
It seems that the new nano effect bonus role is significantly nerfed compared to the prior blue nano effect bonus role. Given the absence of converters with synergies that's something else that might maintain value for a legendary weapon. Personally I'd rather have a legendary assault rifle or LMG with a syphon effect than have one with a blue weapon stat bonus and no nano effectAgreed!Even with the new "nerfed" rolls, I think the 2 would be extremely comparable! Now, if they bring the converters back, that will change things again!

Zugo
10-17-2013, 10:55 AM
I had no idea converter mods were removed. I really wish I had known that prior to last nights salvage storm.

rebtattoo
10-17-2013, 11:06 AM
I had no idea converter mods were removed. I really wish I had known that prior to last nights salvage storm.Converter mods for ARs have been missing from IDR since DLC1. I've been looking for a QM Rad Converter for nearly 2 months! LOL

Atticus Batman
10-17-2013, 02:10 PM
Converter mods for ARs have been missing from IDR since DLC1. I've been looking for a QM Rad Converter for nearly 2 months! LOL

I'd offer to see if I still have any you could have in return for a new decent Ba Sniper, but you are on Ps3 so I am afraid you can't have any of my convertors. :P

Zugo
10-17-2013, 02:12 PM
I'd offer to see if I still have any you could have in return for a new decent Ba Sniper, but you are on Ps3 so I am afraid you can't have any of my convertors. :P

I have a bunch of these too, I guess I didn't know they vanished because I don't go looking for them.

Deunan
10-17-2013, 02:18 PM
Converter mods for ARs have been missing from IDR since DLC1. I've been looking for a QM Rad Converter for nearly 2 months! LOLJust to clarify, even though I think everyone means this, converter mag mods with synergies are missing from the game. Non synergy ones are still in game. I just slapped one on to my legendary VBI LM 43 Thunder a few nights ago. It had no nano effect despite being pre-patch. Since it's pre-patch it also has no blue weapon stat bonus. The best of both worlds! \o/

Moogletime
10-17-2013, 02:21 PM
I would honestly just like an honest Developer answer here - is that too much to ask for?

CMon....normally I would make a joke, but you know that answer by now dude

Deunan
10-17-2013, 02:43 PM
CMon....normally I would make a joke, but you know that answer by now dudeAnd yet dahanese answered this question at post #8. >^^<

dahanese
10-17-2013, 02:54 PM
CMon....normally I would make a joke, but you know that answer by now dude

I'm part of the dev team, Moogle. That was actually written with me sitting on top of the desk next to the guy who programmed all the changes. :P

ironcladtrash
10-17-2013, 03:27 PM
I'm part of the dev team, Moogle. That was actually written with me sitting on top of the desk next to the guy who programmed all the changes. :P

Then smack him in the back of the head for me. This is a great change but there should be an option to fix our current weapons.

Dandrielas
10-17-2013, 03:32 PM
I'm part of the dev team, Moogle. That was actually written with me sitting on top of the desk next to the guy who programmed all the changes. :P

Sounds uncomfortable. Desks usually don't make good chairs.

yue
10-17-2013, 09:51 PM
Good question! On common rolls for assault rifles over EGO rating 1000 those are now rare bonuses and the common rolls are smaller bonuses. The gun you are talking about specifically, though, has not changed (same with all other guns that already exist). The only thing that has changed for guns that existed before this patch is that there is now an across the board base damage increase on all guns based on their rarity.

So basically the question still has not been answered . However if u were looking on a example of dancing around a question u have a fine example here . Looking for numbers old white roll 1.25 crit new white roll xxx ?

lynford
10-18-2013, 05:30 AM
my biggest problem with this is, my ego is 4300, any weapon I draw from box will be to high to trade with most people, ok nothing new right but the 40 org weapons I have now are no longer valuable for trade, how is this a good thing ? I'm all about new guns and better rolls but months of grinding to get these weapons is now wasted