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View Full Version : TRION - The Real Reason PVP is DEAD



Arcisen
10-21-2013, 03:43 PM
I have a friend who has just joined defiance hes only at level 625 and already he has quit the pvp games because in his words 'What Hope Do new players have against OP Surge Bolters when you cant move 10 feet without being one hit killed from a player miles away in such small maps' - sad to say i recommend the game to him as 'fun'

i wonder how many other new players to defiance have gave up having fun in pvp because of over powered weapons / vs new players -

Nefarious
10-21-2013, 03:52 PM
This has been happing since day 1. Once everything came down to cloak, infector, and detonators. The surge bolter is the final piece to make up the four horsemen that would kill PvP.

once upon a time Shadow Wars were full and queuing up for a death matches took under 20 seconds. But now since there are 4 over powered things that take all thinking and strategy out of the game its no wonder why ppl got fed up with PvP.

Heinzlee
10-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha

You think one piece of anectdotal evidence suddenly gives you magical insight into the "Real" reason PvP is dead?

Cos every other reason we've already spoken about in the PvP forum were all false...

Sorry... but hardly think this is the "Real" reason.
More likely your "friend" needs to just harden up a bit.

Are Surge Bolters a menace in Shadow Wars? YES!
Is it the real reason PvP is dead? Unconvinced based on your post.

Overtkill21
10-21-2013, 04:01 PM
I've played Defiance since Day 1 and never touched a pvp match or Shadow Wars - (small aside: aren't they both Pvp? - some thread made it seem not the case).

I think players like me may have something to do with it...

randomvg
10-21-2013, 04:06 PM
The Halo Bunny hoppers are what keep me out of PvP.

Arcisen
10-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha

You think one piece of anectdotal evidence suddenly gives you magical insight into the "Real" reason PvP is dead?

Cos every other reason we've already spoken about in the PvP forum were all false...

Sorry... but hardly think this is the "Real" reason.
More likely your "friend" needs to just harden up a bit.

Are Surge Bolters a menace in Shadow Wars? YES!
Is it the real reason PvP is dead? Unconvinced based on your post.


he quit because of Overpowered weapons not cheating or poor map design, so i would agree op weapons are the reason pvp is dead when it comes to new defiance players, Also please advice him on how to ''harden up'' with your magical insight !

BJWyler
10-21-2013, 04:35 PM
I could have been like your friend. I am a PvE player by 30+ years of trade, but have enjoyed PvP since I have delved into the realm of MMOs. I started Qing for the PvP arenas right around the same EGO that your friend was (before they lowered the requirements for unlocking Perks). Needless to say, I didn't last long in the first two matches I played.

What did I do? I continued playing PvE until I got better at the game (and finished the main storyline), and then I made the determination to start Playing more PvP so I could learn the maps and improve my skills. I can now say that I thoroughly enjoy all the PvP options in the game (even with the bunny hopping infectors and exploits). Sure it is still frustrating at times, but it is also fun as hell, and can't wait until improvements come that make it a bit more balanced.

jbob spittlewop
10-21-2013, 04:53 PM
Pvp is dead because it never should have been added in the first place. Obviously the developers don't know how to handle it, they should have spent all the time, resources, and energy wasted on the broken and dying Pvp improving the co-op and single player aspects.

Azubaz
10-22-2013, 02:36 AM
i wonder how many other new players to defiance have gave up having fun in pvp because of over powered weapons / vs new players -

I've lost all credibility in the area of game suggestion among my peers due to this game.

Elastik Spastik
10-22-2013, 03:41 AM
Pvp should be taken out of this game.

Blackdeathteal
10-22-2013, 03:59 AM
Bunny hopping and one shots was broken in closed beta and now you have charge weapons infectors and exploits , I took a long break from the beta of the game to actually buying it and nothing has changed

One option would be to break off games into ego rating and high the high levles with charge weapons etc in one group and lowbies an actual chance to enjoy pvp without writing it off within one or two games

Or locking weapons sets would address a few issues closer to team fortress or tombraider pvp etc keeping it locked from pve progression

Azubaz
10-22-2013, 04:08 AM
I know this sounds somewhat of a bad idea, but it could be improved upon.

Make like and old school fps lobby system where a player chooses what weapons are allowed, score limit, game type, ego range, ego powers on/off, and such. Then while they run around in Defiance people choose if they want to join that particular game. Gather enough interest and it can start.

Thearl
10-22-2013, 05:31 AM
Feel like I'm repeating myself to death, but IMO, PvP is dead because there are no rewards for participating.

Defiance, in general, is a casual FPS with co-op/MMO tones. Spending 20 minutes anticipating bunny hopper movement, raging at not being able to get a berth on the cerberus for pursuits, raging because your kill didn't count toward the contract, trying to dodge-roll away from infector auto-aim, being suckered into chasing a griefer jumping in/out of SW, trying to respawn without a cloaker camping you, all for 2 keys is the opposite of casual.

N3gativeCr33p
10-22-2013, 05:35 AM
Defiance, in general, is a casual TPS with co-op/MMO tones.

There... fixed that for you.

kendillin
10-22-2013, 06:37 AM
Why do I keep defending pvp?
It's a hot mess.
Before deciding to get those pursuits, the last "pvp" I played was "goldeneye". You can imagine the fun I've had, I'm sure.
Guess I feel if more people who don't cloak(Infectors/ big boomer/ yada yada) played, it wouldn't be dominated by it. (Not a writer)

TRMC606
10-22-2013, 06:42 AM
Pvp should be taken out of this game.
lol yeah.. as long as they replace it for 'open world player killing'. This would help all arkhunters alot.
Someone hits the ego boost at an arkfall for no reason, kill his ***!! revive him, then do it again and B button spam your character over his!!
Someone parked in front of the vendor with his vehicle, blow him & vehicle out of the way!!
Dont like another clan, ..W'd hunt some clans out there till they disband it. All of this would promote more grouping up to stay safe from other arkhunters.
I gues for players that dont like pvp as it is, it would be a nightmare..

kendillin
10-22-2013, 06:46 AM
I would love to see clan wars of some sort. If it stays friendly, at least.
Couldn't be much different than shadow wars right? (IDK)

TRMC606
10-22-2013, 06:55 AM
Feel like I'm repeating myself to death, but IMO, PvP is dead because there are no rewards for participating.
If they increase the keys in pvp to 5-10, pvp would live again lol

Thearl
10-22-2013, 08:09 AM
There... fixed that for you.

thanks! imaginary +1 to ya.

Justified
10-22-2013, 08:40 AM
There are many reasons why pvp is dead. People come at it at different angles. This should indicate how poorly implemented the system is. Rewards was never an issue pre-DLC. We still had decent queues for observatory and FY.

The reason there's been a dramatic decline isn't because weapons are OP. We've had OP weapons since the beginning. Trion just nerfs every weapon to shut the whiners up. The main reason why there's no more pvp matches is because of the reduction in the amount of players it takes to start a shadow war. They need to reduce the amount of players needed to start the other matches too. It's too late to save the game though. My clan was a pretty active clan. Now, no one signs on at all because we enjoyed pvp. Trion continues to lose players because they don't listen to the people who have played since launch. Who wanted the saw nerf? no one. We cried out against it. It still happened.

Moogletime
10-22-2013, 08:51 AM
Whatever, pull out a big boomer and get me back, or keep letting me go 30-0 in maps...

you have access to ALL the same weapons....sheesh....

N3gativeCr33p
10-22-2013, 08:54 AM
thanks! imaginary +1 to ya.

You're very welcome. Imaginary +1 right back 'atcha. :)

Zugo
10-22-2013, 09:05 AM
Simple truth,

PvP is not part of my daily play because the time spent in PvP doesn't net me the same rewards as PvE does.

N3gativeCr33p
10-22-2013, 09:08 AM
Simple truth,

PvP is not part of my daily play because the time spent in PvP doesn't net me the same rewards as PvE does.

Thanks for the new signature quote, sir! ;)

rebtattoo
10-22-2013, 10:10 AM
I was new to MMO games and had never played a PVP match in my life. I decided to try one [shadow wars]. Died so many times because I was laughing too much to play. The entire screen was alight with ppl jumping around like their a sses were on fire. I understand the term "bunny hopping" now.

I'll probably never do the pvp pursuits, but just may stop in from time to time for excellent comic relief.

JBoneFX
10-22-2013, 10:11 AM
Whatever, pull out a big boomer and get me back, or keep letting me go 30-0 in maps...

you have access to ALL the same weapons....sheesh....


Never seen you pvp, or anyone go 30-0 in a map... Seen a certain someone go 74-3, but never 30+ and 0.

...and I will pull out my boomer thanks, oh and a bonfire, been rockin um before they were cool...

JBoneFX
10-22-2013, 10:14 AM
I was new to MMO games and had never played a PVP match in my life. I decided to try one [shadow wars]. Died so many times because I was laughing too much to play. The entire screen was alight with ppl jumping around like their a sses were on fire. I understand the term "bunny hopping" now.

I'll probably never do the pvp pursuits, but just may stop in from time to time for excellent comic relief.


Yeah I hear you on the hopping... I do it, primarily for my detonator/RL angles... Helps with avoidance too, so my tail is pretty damn fluffy...

Valentine
10-22-2013, 10:51 AM
The Halo Bunny hoppers are what keep me out of PvP.

Ya everyone looks so dumb jumping around. I'm glad I snipe instead xD

freshful
10-22-2013, 10:58 AM
Never seen you pvp, or anyone go 30-0 in a map... Seen a certain someone go 74-3, but never 30+ and 0.

...and I will pull out my boomer thanks, oh and a bonfire, been rockin um before they were cool...

http://i.imgur.com/aVFecaz.jpg 51:0 :D


btw. the real reason why pvp is dead because of shadowwar you can join shadow war with 4v4 so nobody queus for freight yard and observatory.

JBoneFX
10-22-2013, 11:30 AM
http://i.imgur.com/aVFecaz.jpg 51:0 :D


btw. the real reason why pvp is dead because of shadowwar you can join shadow war with 4v4 so nobody queus for freight yard and observatory.

you're in serious need of PVP competition...

Heinzlee
10-22-2013, 04:15 PM
he quit because of Overpowered weapons not cheating or poor map design, so i would agree op weapons are the reason pvp is dead when it comes to new defiance players, Also please advice him on how to ''harden up'' with your magical insight !

Before getting started - I'm not suggesting that the Surge Bolter is not OP.
My reaction was more about it being the 'real' reason PvP is dead.

PvP was already dying before Surge Bolters.
The double whammy of adding the Surge Bolters with the changes to Shadow Wars queue just made it worse.


As for 'hardening up' for PvP...
The first place to start is Notturno's beginners guide to PvP.
It can be found in the useful guides link in my sig.


PvP is the hardest content in this game.
Your opponents are better equipped, have ego powers and aren't constrained to AI.

Most players get wrecked when the start PvP for the first time in Defiance.
It plays completely differently to PvE so your loadouts are all wrong.

PvP is also affected the most by personal skill.
Lower ego characters take out higher ego characters all the time in PvP.
Despite the many mechanical disadvantages they have.

If you can't get over that mentally, then yeah - PvP is dead for you.


As for map design - They're generally alright.
Except for military academy. That one is apparently glitched as hell.

Heinzlee
10-22-2013, 04:21 PM
That's why you've never seen him Chuck - Freshful is on EU servers.

I've played against him a few times in shadow wars and he's the real deal.
Still a cloaking surge bolter pansy... but that's mostly the butthurt talking.

chilipino
10-22-2013, 04:44 PM
The double whammy of adding the Surge Bolters with the changes to Shadow Wars queue just made it worse.


Yep. If they changed the queue requirements such that Observatory popped most frequently then people would have never QQ'd about Surge Bolters.

XTORT
10-22-2013, 04:51 PM
I've played Defiance since Day 1 and never touched a pvp match or Shadow Wars

same here lol

Notturno
10-22-2013, 06:29 PM
Before getting started - I'm not suggesting that the Surge Bolter is not OP.
My reaction was more about it being the 'real' reason PvP is dead.

PvP was already dying before Surge Bolters.
The double whammy of adding the Surge Bolters with the changes to Shadow Wars queue just made it worse.

Surge Bolters and Shadow Wars were nothing more than symptoms to a larger issue. The general lack of understanding with continued changes left a sour taste in my mouth, and seemed to translate across many of the other top players I kept in touch with on PC-NA. While SW and Surge Bolters certainly contribute to the plethora of issues I personally have with PvP, those changes just solidified my belief that nobody at Trion actually plays PvP. Considering one of their artists threatened me with account deletion because he felt I was cheating, I'm just going to continue assuming Trion does not play or understand that aspect of their game.

People stuck around because of potential, then left when it was not realized. The final nail in the coffin for me was the damage absorption issue, which just further reinforced how out of touch the development team was with the PvP community. Other people left for reasons prior to that, such as the lack of competitive maps popping and the lack of participants. Others seem to be holding on to hope still.

The PvP side of Defiance died because of developer neglect, unintentional or otherwise. I think the budget issues Trion is dealing with (read: rumored 80% of the team being laid off (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/05/18/trion-worlds-layoffs/)) had a lot to do with it. There isn't enough developer love to spread around the game, so they are essentially banking on the PvE aspects of the game to carry it. While I disagree with this strategy, at least it's better than FireFall's "let's do everything and fail at all of it" strategy.

Either way, the PvP side of Defiance is not going to recover. Nearly all of the good players were gone before I left, and I only know of a couple who were still active when I quit. There may still be players, but I weep for the quality of competition.


As for 'hardening up' for PvP...
The first place to start is Notturno's beginners guide to PvP.
It can be found in the useful guides link in my sig.

If there aren't any updates messing with it, some of it should be relevant. I'm sure with the upcoming patch much of it will be invalidated, and I have no intentions of updating it or playing the game further.


PvP is the hardest content in this game.
Your opponents are better equipped, have ego powers and aren't constrained to AI.

Agreed, this is why PvP attracts me.


Most players get wrecked when the start PvP for the first time in Defiance.
It plays completely differently to PvE so your loadouts are all wrong.

Yep, that's about right. Many people walk in with their sub-optimal PvE builds and expect to stomp on everyone right away. Tell tale signs of this are lacking of defensive perks, unmodded weapons, inefficient weapon selections, and so on. It's also funny competing with friends to see how long you can juke those players (spoiler: it's usually over 20 seconds).


As for map design - They're generally alright.
Except for military academy. That one is apparently glitched as hell.

Military Academy was actually a really cool map, it's just that nobody was able to play it due to the queuing. Freight Yard is fantastic as well. Shadow Wars are just garbage because they weren't expressly designed for competitive play.

Chump Norris
10-22-2013, 07:23 PM
It needs to be removed from the game and the nerfs to weapons because of it need to be undone.

Moogletime
10-24-2013, 09:31 AM
Never seen you pvp, or anyone go 30-0 in a map... Seen a certain someone go 74-3, but never 30+ and 0.

...and I will pull out my boomer thanks, oh and a bonfire, been rockin um before they were cool...

Havent been on in time, and this aint my GT.

But yea, Xbox, NA?

My and some of my boys would do 20-30, and 0-3 anytime we played.

Wish not to say my GT, but played with CYanetix, Rickochet, players92, Staxxi,, Storm119, Hope499, Royal Kush, ImSoTwisted.

like I said Havent played in monhs tho.

Any 360 VETS, will know those names.