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Mr666
10-23-2013, 03:50 AM
I have a very tech question that comes of my clanmates and I want to see if anyone can answer the question before I take it to Trick. There is three mods to mod the radius of damage inside the blast radius for detonators. The aim&hip changes damage throughout the radius for my understanding. The minimum damage and the full radius is where I question and how they work. I understand it as the minimum works for the outside in making the outer most radius do more damage and the full radius works from the inside out making the inner most radius larger as so to do max damage while being less dead on with your shots. Now the question is when either MIN or Full is used does it make the other radius smaller or over lap them making it it's own.(note I know the circles are not perfectly sized but the radius in the full radius chart is meant to be bigger in the middle but all other are the same in layer and size.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/dark_dragon_lord_zack_666/radius_zps6fa516ba.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dark_dragon_lord_zack_666/media/radius_zps6fa516ba.jpg.html)

Nilxain
10-23-2013, 06:58 AM
For Full Damage Radius it demises with the new inner value. So, If we were to say the first inner circle on your "unmod" picture was to be expanded to the next concentric circle, via full damage radius, the damage then diminishes at an new rate, and does serve as a greater damage increase than a damage mod would for most of the damage zone (with the crossover points being before the point of full damage from a full damage radius mod and then again very close to the bast radius).

As an example, but not meant to be the exact rate, here is a representation of what's happening using your numbers(ish):

Unmod

100-80-60-40-20

+.60 full damage radius

100-100-73-46-20

x1.07 damage

107-85-63-41-21


(This answer is based off extensive testing that I discussed in --> this (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?108465-Full-Damage-Radius-Range/page3) <-- thread - I originally confused it with "blast radius" so you will have to read past that part to get to the "full damage radius". I would suggest starting on page 3, post #24.)

I assume the minimum damage works similar, but in reverse - however I have not tested that one.

Nilxain
10-23-2013, 10:28 AM
**Updated my answer to give an example along the lines of what was used in the OP**

Zugo
10-23-2013, 10:51 AM
**Updated my answer to give an example along the lines of what was used in the OP**

Damage radius is a percentage of the potential damage, so at the 3rd radius (73% modded) we are looking at 73% of which damage potential? Or does it work a different way?

Nilxain
10-23-2013, 11:10 AM
Damage radius is a percentage of the potential damage, so at the 3rd radius (73% modded) we are looking at 73% of which damage potential? Or does it work a different way?

Somewhere in that ball park, yes.

I wanted to add; the example I gave is meant to give people an idea of the effect. That example shows the +.60 mod doubling the minimum damage radius and the minimum damage being 20% of the max. But ,to be more precises, in some cases it's more than double, in some case it's just slightly less than double, and the min damage isn't 20%. This means that the place within the damage area that the 73% falls will vary depending on the weapon, but it will always be a higher % than the x1.07 mod at that point.

A better example might be in increments of 10 - since previous to the newest damage update (iirc) the min damage was 10% of the max damage. But, even in that case the minimum blast radius isn't necessarily 10% of the (full) blast radius. If I used an example like that the full damage radius would look like:

Unmod
100-90-80-70-60-50-40-30-20-10

+.60 Full Damage Radius
100-100-88.75-77.5-66.25-55-43.75-32.5-21.25-10

x1.07 Damage mod
107-96.3-85.6-74.9-64.2-53.5-42.8-32.1-21.4-10.7

*The bold shows the point where full damage radius becomes more than x1.07 damage and then the point where it becomes less again - if the min damage was 10% of the max, and if the base full damage radius was .6 so that the +.60 FDR was exactly double.


Since these examples are meant to show the effect, without being the actual numbers, the % isn't directly correlated to any specific weapon in these examples, but it is probably somewhere in the same ball park for the actual numbers. The reason I am not directly correlating them is because the % of damage lost at any given point in the blast area is dependent on a few things that are weapon specific: base full damage radius, minimum damage, maximum damage, and (full) blast radius.

Nilxain
10-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Damage radius is a percentage of the potential damage, so at the 3rd radius (73% modded) we are looking at 73% of which damage potential? Or does it work a different way?

*Updated my answer to be more specific because I realized my example may have caused a little confusion.*

Zugo
10-24-2013, 08:39 AM
Are the rings within the blast radius evenly spaced?

If we look at a 4.5 meter total blast radius the center ring would only be 1.125 meters is size.

So if we increase the overall radius by adding the tier3 mod (0.60)

(0.60)1.125 meters = 0.675 increase to the center ring.

vs

(.060)4.5 meters = 2.7 increase of the outer most ring.

Nilxain
10-24-2013, 09:22 AM
Are the rings within the blast radius evenly spaced?

I believe so.

When I collected my data I didn't realize, until the end, that my shield and my health were different - and this mattered because 2 of the 5 data points also hit me for HP along with Shield (which I discussed at the end of my data presentation). But, knowing the type of shield I normally use, I can deduce that they were very close to the same value at that time. So, if the damage diminishes on a curve it is pretty small (in comparison to the average); in that case using a linear approximation should be just fine (ie: evenly distributed rings).



If we look at a 4.5 meter total blast radius the center ring would only be 1.125 meters is size.


While I was testing I don't remember ever seeing a base full damage radius that was this large in comparison to the blast radius (full). That said, I'll use that number in addressing the next part:



So if we increase the overall radius by adding the tier3 mod (0.60)

(0.60)1.125 meters = 0.675 increase to the center ring.


Full damage radius mods are "+.x0"; this means they are additive, not multiplicative (unless Trion has broken from their notation here). So, the result would be:

1.125 + .60 = 1.725 full damage blast radius



vs

(.060)4.5 meters = 2.7 increase of the outer most ring.


If I'm understanding what you are doing here, then it's important to note that +full damage mods don't increase the blast radius (full), they only increase the full damage radius (and the subsequent damage between the new full damage radius and the blast radius). If instead you mean the outer most concentric ring, then I will refer back to the answer for the above question and say just treat it like it's linear (ie: evenly distributed) - even if it doesn't yield the exact answer it will be very close.

Zugo
10-24-2013, 09:38 AM
The 4.5 blast radius I was using was from a base VBI Matchlock Boomer.

1.125 meters representing 1/4th of the total blast radius, and (0.60)1.125 calculating 60% of 1.125 to come up with a 0.675 increase. The center ring would then increase from 1.125 meters to 1.8 meters.

I was primarily focusing on the center ring because that's where we have the highest damage potential.

Nilxain
10-24-2013, 10:08 AM
The 4.5 blast radius I was using was from a base VBI Matchlock Boomer.

Ok, in that case, if the matchlock boomer follows the same trend as the grenade launcher (which is also 4.5 base BR) then the base full damage radius is about 11% of the blast radius.




1.125 meters representing 1/4th of the total blast radius, and (0.60)1.125 calculating 60% of 1.125 to come up with a 0.675 increase. The center ring would then increase from 1.125 meters to 1.8 meters.



In the thread I link I discussed the option that Trion may have actually meant x1.60 (ie: +60%) instead of +.60units on the full damage radius mods. However, we all agreed that it is likely that they do actually mean +.60 and not x1.60, because they have been pretty consistent in using the x1.n notation to signify adding a %. For this reason I do think it would be 1.725 in your example.



I was primarily focusing on the center ring because that's where we have the highest damage potential.


The Grenade Launcher's base full damage radius was about .5 when I tested it, if the matchlock is the same, then the t3 mod would make it either .8units or 1.1units. My money is on the 1.1units (unless they have changed it since I did the test), because the Big Boomer I tested did yielded the expected result for +.6units and not x1.60 (ie: +60%).

Zugo
10-24-2013, 10:35 AM
Ok, in that case, if the matchlock boomer follows the same trend as the grenade launcher (which is also 4.5 base BR) then the base full damage radius is about 11% of the blast radius.

11%? are we sure there are 4 concentric circles in the blast radius? When you say full damage radius you are referring to the center ring where 100% damage can occur?



In the thread I link I discussed the option that Trion may have actually meant x1.60 (ie: +60%) instead of +.60units on the full damage radius mods. However, we all agreed that it is likely that they do actually mean +.60 and not x1.60, because they have been pretty consistent in using the x1.n notation to signify adding a %. For this reason I do think it would be 1.725 in your example.

Agreed



The Grenade Launcher's base full damage radius was about .5 when I tested it. So, if the matchlock is the same then the t3 mod would make it either .8units or 1.1units. My money is on the 1.1units (unless they have changed it since I did the test), because the Big Boomer I tested did yielded the expected result for +.6units and not x1.60 (ie: +60%).

I always figured our base unit was meters. When you did your testing did it appear to be meters, more or less?

Nilxain
10-24-2013, 10:52 AM
11%? are we sure there are 4 concentric circles in the blast radius?

Well, in actuality there are infinitely many concentric circles between the base full damage radius and the blast radius. Using the concentric circles helps us see a trend - like plotting points on a graph. By doing this what we are saying is; as the damage approaches this area, or point, it is approaching 'x' percent of the initial damage.



When you say full damage radius you are referring to the center ring where 100% damage can occur?

Yes.



I always figured our base unit was meters. When you did your testing did it appear to be meters, more or less?

Less.

When I started testing I was using the term "meters," but as it went on I realized that the units I was dealing with were not what I would have expected an in game meter to be. For this reason I switched to calling them ddu's (defiance distance units) at the end of my testing. I'm not sure how universally this applies, so I have only used them in this case (this also being the only case I would have need to be precise(ish) - lol).

Zugo
10-24-2013, 11:00 AM
Well, in actuality there are infinitely many concentric circles between the base full damage radius and the blast radius. Using the concentric circles helps us see a trend - like plotting points on a graph. By doing this what we are saying is; as the damage approaches this area, or point, it is approaching 'x' percent of the initial damage.

Light bulb! I thought there was a finite number of concentric circles.



When I started testing I was using the term "meters," but as it went on I realized that the units I was dealing with were not what I would have expected an in game meter to be. For this reason I switched to calling them ddu's (defiance distance units) at the end of my testing. I'm not sure how universally this applies, so I have only used them in this case (this also being the only case I would have need to be precise(ish) - lol).

Makes sense, probably why the term "meters" isn't present. Brings up questions for grenades, falloff damage, and explosive damage resistance perks.

I've only done limited testing in game, thanks for shedding some light on the subject.

Nilxain
10-24-2013, 11:16 AM
Light bulb! I thought there was a finite number of concentric circles.


For my own peace of mind, I would like to say that if there are finite concentric circles then they fell in such a way that my test didn't pick them up. Personally I would not do it that way, but if for some reason they wanted to manipulate specific zones of the explosion then they may have chosen that route.



Makes sense, probably why the term "meters" isn't present. Brings up questions for grenades, falloff damage, and explosive damage resistance perks.


I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the case, but my suspicions could be wrong.



I've only done limited testing in game, thanks for shedding some light on the subject.


No problem, I'm always glad to help if I can :-)

Mr666
10-24-2013, 12:45 PM
Thankz for all the info Nilxain

Nilxain
10-25-2013, 12:28 PM
The whole "meters" thing has been bothering me since it came back up. Originally it didn't really matter so I just called it something else and moved on. But now that it came back up I wanted to put some time into figuring out if these stats are actually supposed to be in meters or not. I don't want to put out possibly false info. with out doing my due diligence and having something to back it up - beyond just "hum that seems small" lol. So, I set out to find a "standard candle" and what I came up with leads me to believe these are actually meant to be in game meters. I still can't quite put my finger on why it seems smaller than it should be, but it could be because I am seeing things from where my camera sits and not my character's eyes - and since we don't really get a good view of our characters it's hard to judge.

Zugo
10-25-2013, 12:31 PM
The whole "meters" thing has been bothering me since it came back up. Originally it didn't really matter so I just called it something else and moved on. But now that it came back up I wanted to put some time into figuring out if these stats are actually supposed to be in meters or not. I don't want to put out possibly false info. with out doing my due diligence and having something to back it up - beyond just "hum that seems small" lol. So, I set out to find a "standard candle" and what I came up with leads me to believe these are actually meant to be in game meters. I still can't quite put my finger on why it seems smaller than it should be, but it could be because I am seeing things from where my camera sits and not my character's eyes.

I was going to suggest that, third person perspective makes it look smaller than it is.

Stone Hinther
10-28-2013, 08:11 AM
So would it make any sense to go over 100% full damage radius? Or would you be adding a value that isn't there after you go past 100%. For instance I have a mass cannon with a .50 full damage radius and a 1.25 full damage radius. It also has a 1.05 damage roll. Would putting on a Damage radius barrel on make any sense? Or would it be a waste because its at 75% already.

Nilxain
10-28-2013, 08:26 AM
So would it make any sense to go over 100% full damage radius? Or would you be adding a value that isn't there after you go past 100%. For instance I have a mass cannon with a .50 full damage radius and a 1.25 full damage radius. It also has a 1.05 damage roll. Would putting on a Damage radius barrel on make any sense? Or would it be a waste because its at 75% already.

The best I can tell the modifier for Full Damage Radius represents distance (meters) instead of percent.

So, going over 100% is not really an option because you would have to add ~4 meters, and if multiple bonuses exist now (since they recently changed a bunch of stuff maybe there are some more rollable bonuses) then they might be (at most) something like (.2m(white) +.4m(green) +.6m(blue) +.8m(modT4)) + (base m x 1.25(mastery)) = 2.6m(updated) (<--- should be close to the max possible full damage radius for a 4.6m blast radius weapon, if all of these bonuses exist and were all rolled, with the mod added).

Zugo
10-28-2013, 08:37 AM
I tried to land one of the new tier IV blast radius mods this weekend but didn't have any luck.

Can someone post the stats on them here please.

alienstookmybeer
10-28-2013, 08:43 AM
I'd be surprised if the level IV mod wasn't +.80 full damage radius. Every other purple mod has just been increased by the same amount as the blue is higher than the green.

Also, I'd expect there are cases where you can go over 100% full damage radius bonus (double the radius). Especially if the guesswork was correct that the base full damage radius is somewhere around 20% of the base blast radius. I'd imagine a mass cannon could easily be doubled or even tripled.

Zugo
10-29-2013, 06:38 AM
Here's a radius tier IV mod

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--pr7F94FxcM/Um85YXRt2ZI/AAAAAAAAALY/Gci9Lmo-7yE/w548-h889-no/13+-+4