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PhotriusPyrelus
11-01-2013, 10:08 AM
...am I missing something? These guns seem to be pretty crappy. Their per-shot damage is okay, but the fire rate is really low. Their blast radius is *tiny*. They don't seem to count as explosive weapons. They seem pretty meh.

Seems to me anything they can do, something else can do better. So what am I missing? 'cause I see a number of people using them, they must not be all that bad. Unless they're "noob bait".

crasher
11-01-2013, 10:10 AM
...am I missing something? These guns seem to be pretty crappy. Their per-shot damage is okay, but the fire rate is really low. Their blast radius is *tiny*. They don't seem to count as explosive weapons. They seem pretty meh.

Seems to me anything they can do, something else can do better. So what am I missing? 'cause I see a number of people using them, they must not be all that bad. Unless they're "noob bait".
They canNOT introduce game-breaking overpowered weapons into the game.
Especially if you consider all the work and grief they will have in front of them when you see the nerfs that will have to follow.

It's a new 'Golly-Gee' weapon that has to be (as an LMG) on the same shelf as the Disruptor and Thunder)

Nilxain
11-01-2013, 10:22 AM
They canNOT introduce game-breaking overpowered weapons into the game.
Especially if you consider all the work and grief they will have in front of them when you see the nerfs that will have to follow.

It's a new 'Golly-Gee' weapon that has to be (as an LMG) on the same shelf as the Disruptor and Thunder)

If I understand your meaning: Disruptor, yes; Thunder, no. The Battle Rifles are in line with the worse weapons in the game (like the disruptor, blast rifle, and berserker shotgun), buffing them would not be "game-breaking" - as long as they don't go overboard.

xilfxlegion
11-01-2013, 10:25 AM
it depends on what youre doing with them.

i wouldnt use one in a siege because the fire rate is so slow, even the ones with fire rate rolls on them. but they seem to have no falloff and inflict decent damage on farther away targets, and on the monolith at the darkfalls.

the other bad thing about them is you cant use them close in because they damage you also. but with the green boost at the darkfalls --- they are a one shot kill on the dark matter troops, and they do about 5500 dmg per shot on the tachmag drive on the monolith.

crasher
11-01-2013, 10:32 AM
If I understand your meaning: Disruptor, yes; Thunder, no. The Battle Rifles are in line with the worse weapons in the game (like the disruptor, blast rifle, and berserker shotgun), buffing them would not be "game-breaking" - as long as they don't go overboard.
YOU know that.
I know that.
A percentage of the people who, through repetitive discussion and example are deemed 'whiners', know that.
The devs don't seem to grasp details like that.
So, we have what we have.

I still stand by my statement though, from a practical POV .... It's an LMG, the devs have only so much interest in practicality, so they use the generic broad brush on classes and call it 'good'.

EDIT: They nerf weapons.
Later they buffed some damage as a sop to the ppl discussing the patch.
It was a bargaining chip.
I'm waiting for the new nerf that puts them back again.

Nilxain
11-01-2013, 10:33 AM
it depends on what youre doing with them.

i wouldnt use one in a siege because the fire rate is so slow, even the ones with fire rate rolls on them. but they seem to have no falloff and inflict decent damage on farther away targets, and on the monolith at the darkfalls.

the other bad thing about them is you cant use them close in because they damage you also. but with the green boost at the darkfalls --- they are a one shot kill on the dark matter troops, and they do about 5500 dmg per shot on the tachmag drive on the monolith.

They are fun to use, and I personally enjoy using them, but in application there are significantly better guns for both general and specific uses. A buff on these would not be unreasonable, but they are fun enough that I think people will choose to use them regardless - so maybe not necessary.

Kibblehouse
11-01-2013, 11:34 AM
No one has added yet, they are FUN, and shoot BLUE FIRE!

Now maybe that shouldnt excite me, but it does.

For some players and playstyles, the Volge rifles can compete with any of the "Best" weapons. Personally if I am wailing away at a volge with my AR I will not be hitting crit spots all the time, I'm just not that good, but with the volge rifle I can actually get more crits because of the added blast radius.

If you can nail 8 out of 10 headshots with a Wolfhound (or AR, or SMG), no reason to bother with a volge rifle. But if your me, I can get my self a good spot by the front gate, and aim uphill at the spawnpoints and get a kill or assist on every volge that spawns.

Its not the best weapon around, but it can be useful in the right situations. Like every weapon in the game, someone out there will find it very useful.

Overtkill21
11-01-2013, 12:12 PM
Just last night scored 65K at an infected siege and 45K at a Volge siege where I stopped shooting with 5 minutes left - using a Volge LMG exclusively...

In fact a Volge LMG with a velocity buff and a decent Crit Mult will shower you with Crit kills as your projectile lands well before others.

As a Volge LMG user and a routine top scorer - I'd say your assessment of the weapon is lacking. Pickup a decent model, use it correctly, and easily dominate the competition.

Nilxain
11-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Just last night scored 65K at an infected siege and 45K at a Volge siege where I stopped shooting with 5 minutes left - using a Volge LMG exclusively...

In fact a Volge LMG with a velocity buff and a decent Crit Mult will shower you with Crit kills as your projectile lands well before others.

As a Volge LMG user and a routine top scorer - I'd say your assessment of the weapon is lacking. Pickup a decent model, use it correctly, and easily dominate the competition.

I actually haven't re-reviewed them since plague sieges dropped, and with the way the crit points are set up for them I could see a Battle Rifle preforming quite well there. I'll test it against my detonator, since I generally get 70k+ with them (depending on the location of course), and see if it can compete (which it might, I'm interested to see, they are fun to use).

However, I assure you my assessment has been quite thorough - pre-plague siege re-release. This is not meant to attack or ridicule your weapon choices; play with what's fun, I do, all the time. For my own personal use, I generally do a mathematical analysis of the weapons and then back it up with a performance comparison - the results I find are often reflected in my statements.

Overtkill21
11-01-2013, 02:43 PM
I actually haven't re-reviewed them since plague sieges dropped, and with the way the crit points are set up for them I could see a Battle Rifle preforming quite well there. I'll test it against my detonator, since I generally get 70k+ with them (depending on the location of course), and see if it can compete (which it might, I'm interested to see, because they are fun to use).

However, I assure you my assessment has been quite thorough - pre-plague siege re-release. This is not meant to attack or ridicule your weapon choices; play with what's fun, I do, all the time. For my own personal use, I generally do a mathematical analysis of the weapons and then back it up with a performance comparison - the results I find are often reflected in my statements.

Even pre-plague sieges I used the Volge LMG to outscore most opponents. The weapons occupies a previously unoccupied niche of an ultra-long range high damage explosive round LMG. My math says that my 1233 DMG at 2.5 Crit and 25 Rounds = over 77K damage per clip which I believe is right on target even if it takes 15.6 seconds to empty. The length of time you can engage targets without reloading your ammo pool is also a great balancer.

The VBI AR with 270 DMG and a 2.3 Crit and 72 Rounds = 45K damage per clip and a little over 5 seconds to empty. You burn through your ammo very quickly and run dry in less than a minute barring ammo pickups. If you were to then factor in the time to the ammo box and back the two weapons become extremely close in damage potential over time.

I too use math to choose weapons and my math and my experience show that the Volge LMG is anything but weak.

Nilxain
11-01-2013, 04:22 PM
Even pre-plague sieges I used the Volge LMG to outscore most opponents. The weapons occupies a previously unoccupied niche of an ultra-long range high damage explosive round LMG. My math says that my 1233 DMG at 2.5 Crit and 25 Rounds = over 77K damage per clip which I believe is right on target even if it takes 15.6 seconds to empty. The length of time you can engage targets without reloading your ammo pool is also a great balancer.

The VBI AR with 270 DMG and a 2.3 Crit and 72 Rounds = 45K damage per clip and a little over 5 seconds to empty. You burn through your ammo very quickly and run dry in less than a minute barring ammo pickups. If you were to then factor in the time to the ammo box and back the two weapons become extremely close in damage potential over time.

I too use math to choose weapons and my math and my experience show that the Volge LMG is anything but weak.

I want to say that I can't put too much time into this (atm), but I can't find a way to do it with out feeling like I'm sounding rude, so I'm sorry if I sound that way (and in turn that this is a short and sloppy presentation).

First of all your math isn't complete, start with this formula instead (it factors in the time for the mag and reload): [(DMG*Rate*Mag)/((Reload*Rate)+Mag)] = DPS

My orange Volge LMG (recently posted in the linked thread) (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?138621-Epic-Mod-Hoard/page6) is 1426 DPS

The old blue VBI AR (so pre-dmg-buff (222) - which doesn't even exist anymore) with no bonuses (http://www.defiancedata.com/item.php?id=617) is 1624 DPS

A old blue VBI I have (which shows the dmg buff (247), but no blue roll, no relevant bonuses (for this part) and without mods) is 1807 DPS

So, right off the bat, a pre-buff blue (which doesn't even exist anymore) and a post buff (but pre-blue roll) is superior to a buffed orange with the bonus 10% damage included. And, in fact, there are MANY other weapons that exceed the Volge LMG without even including buffs or even being of the same loot tier.

With respect to ammo, it really doesn't matter how quickly you go through it, if you never run out - which I never do because mobs drop ammo like crazy now (provided you're doing the damage), and will be even less likely with DLC 2 (ammo on the VBI isn't really an issue anyway). But if you do run out, just switch to a different weapon and kill something (there are several pistols and shotguns that also exceed the Volge LGM)

Now, dry DPS isn't the only thing to look at here, there are also crits:

My orange Volge LMG's crit dmg is 3017.5 (if all shots are hip shots), making it's DPS with 100% crits 3564 DPS

The old blue VBI AR's (no patch 1.105 buff, no bonuses, no mods) crit dmg is 333 making it's DPS with 100% crits 2437 DPS

A old blue VBI I have (which shows the dmg buff but no blue roll, and without mods) crit dmg is 518.7 making it's DPS with 100% crits 3795 DPS

While the Old VBI (which doesn't exist anymore) does loose out (without taking into account accuracy), the Old VBI with the patch 1.105 buff beats it again. But, that isn't all, because both VBI's (and just about every other SMG/LMG/AR) are significantly more accurate than the Volge LMG is. So, while it's not hard to hit your target with the Volge, critting is a completely different story, and in a situation where you need to hit a small or moving crit point the volge LMG likely will not do it where Both VBI's will.

Still, that's a lot of "ifs", so I like to evaluate this using the logic surrounding my 1/3 rule: If you can crit on your target more that 33% of the time, build crit, if not, build damage (this rule is an approximation I use when modding to see if I need to look closer or move on). So, how will this help us? Think about how often you crit 100% of the time, are those situations limited to only one gun type? If so why?

It turns out that in the situations were you crit 100% of the time, it's normally due to a stable crit point that is exposed for some length of time (ie: highest crit DPS wins). And, the situations were you don't crit 100% of the time (or close) the more accurate the gun, the more likely you are to crit with it (most guns are more precise than the volge). And, there are actually many situations where you crit less than 33% of the time because no crit point is available or it's difficult to hit (ie: higher base DPS wins).

But, DPS wasn't all that was brought up, there is also the matter of the explosive quality:

The DPS of my matchlock boomer is 1767 DPS

This is a 341 DPS increase (over the volge) and a 237 damage increase per shot; which is important here because the application is generally aoe burst not DPS (which it's still better anyway). Not only that, but the Det. counts as explosion damage (which I haven't tested for the volge, tbh, but that doesn't matter because of the following--->) and all Dets have a much larger radius than the Volge LMG has (making it so you can synergize with perks)

With respect to ammo: When comparing the Dets v the LMG there is an obviously huge ammo difference, but the question is, does it matter? The places where I choose to use a Det. are ones were am hitting a lot of things all at once. Since this is the case, many of those things are dropping ammo for me, or there is a major pause between waves were I loose no DPS by going to a box.

So, what does this all mean?

For single target DPS the VBI AR is way better, for crits the VBI is way better, and for aoe the Det is way better. So, you wouldn't use a volge rifle because you think you can't hit the head, because even body shots with a VBI are more damage. You wouldn't choose a Volge for crits, because again the VBI is more damage. You wouldn't choose a Volge for explosion because a Det is way better. So, Why would you choose it? Because it's fun, it has some unique properties for a LMG that also makes it fun, it has the ammo pool that every LMG has, and it has the falloff range of an LMG. But, when you actually take the time to look at the numbers it just doesn't stack up. (This is just the tip of how far it goes; I have looked at this from more angles than just these, and it simply isn't as good as it should be).

Steel Fire
11-01-2013, 05:22 PM
Oh, for crying out loud...

Math isn't everything in what makes a weapon more or less effective in someone's hands. Any given DPS number is only actually a maximum potential DPS number, assuming every single round hits and you simply hold the trigger down to burn through rounds as fast as the weapon can fire. Except anyone with an ounce of skill understands fire control and doesn't simply hold the trigger down all the time anyway.

Nor is any single person's experience with a given weapon useful except to someone else who has a similar play style.

That is why you could look at the top five people at any given siege or arkfall and not find them all using an identical build. That's actually a good thing, as it means balance isn't so bad that there are only one or two "best" builds.

What is best for any given player is what fits their playstyle and skill. Some prefer close combat, some prefer long ranged combat, some prefer blowing the shtako out of things with explosives. If they can score big, or at least score enough to be happy with their results, and kill things then whatever weapons they are using are what is most effective for them; no matter what the math or anyone else says.

Overtkill21
11-01-2013, 05:34 PM
Wait...I wrote a long reply, but why should I fight this? LOL

You're right - the gun is poop.

It needs a fire rate buff. Let's get that happening devs.

LOL

Nefarious
11-01-2013, 06:39 PM
The Volge Rifle has no drop off dmg and no recoil. Seems pretty cool to me.

Nilxain
11-01-2013, 06:51 PM
That is why you could look at the top five people at any given siege or arkfall and not find them all using an identical build. That's actually a good thing, as it means balance isn't so bad that there are only one or two "best" builds.



Both of you are surrounding the thought behind the above quote, and that question surrounds, what I perceive as, the thought behind this thread (min/max), so I'll address that:

The reason you don't see "best builds" is because there isn't much of a point to it in this game, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist (in a small number of forms). In other games there are "best builds." It's not because this game is more or less balanced than other games, it's because people haven't sat down and posted what the best builds are (because it's a heck of a lot of work).

If high end raiding were a thing in this game then you better believe the top clan's raiders would have to know the best builds, and those people would be consistently higher on average than the people doing the Arkfalls/Sieges with random weapons and builds. This coming from a person who has been a top 1% raider and has put together many best builds in many games. Even though this game is designed to work well with any random build, it's not because the game is that balanced, it's because the game is easy enough that there is no need. Even I have become lazy about builds and weapons (to an extent) because this game doesn't really drive someone to want/need to push the limits (sieges stages don't matter, points don't matter, etc.) - heck, I go afk for nearly everything. To some people min/maxing is important, even if there is no need. The thing that was brought up by the OP was that the Volge LMG "seemed" weak to him, and I can confirm that from a min/max comparison it is.

If you guys want to choose the Volge LMG because you like it better and feel like it's a better fit for you, then like I said several times, do that - I am neither criticizing you or judging you for whatever choice you make; this is a game, do what is fun. What I am doing is offering the min/max outlook, and to someone who cares about min/maxing the Volge LMG is not the choice I would recommend (with the possible exception to plagues sieges, because I haven't not review them yet with respect to that weapon, and I could see where they might preform well - as overkill21 suggested).

I would also say that the Volge LMG does need a buff because after having done extensive empirical testing on a great many weapons, the Volge LMG is weak enough to say that it really does need a buff (with the stipulations posted in my earlier posts). If people chose to use that weapon because they feel like its the right choice for them, and functions fine, that is their choice, and I'm not trying to stop anyone from that. But, the weapon is in fact sub par, and by doing the numbers on it to find that out, I am doing you guys a favor too. It is a vote to buff a weapon you guys already love, and just don't realize that it needs a buff (with the stipulations posted in my earlier posts) - because you have been having too much fun blow'in shtacko up! I don't blame you for that; it is a fun weapon to use.

Tekrunner
11-02-2013, 06:08 AM
I think Nilxain is pretty spot on. There's very little talk about best builds or best in class outside of PvP because there's very little need for it.

In my opinion, the volge LMG has two things going for it:
- it's fun to use
- it's basically a sniper rifle with almost no recoil, which can be fired on the move

Like a sniper rifle, its DPS isn't great, but it can do very well against enemies with relatively little HP. But against bullet sponges, it's outclassed by many other guns.

As for afflicted sieges... I'm pretty sure that the best setup is a big boomer as main, and a high DPS gun (tachmag pulser, vot blaster...) as secondary.

Nilxain
11-02-2013, 11:05 AM
Follow up for Volge LMG with respect to Plague sieges:

I ran my two favorite sieges (Bolinas and Chinatown) with my Volge LMG and I do feel like this weapon preformed within the level of tolerance for these two sieges. I received 38k @ Chinatown and 66k @ Bolinas. Even though I do feel like this weapon is preforming within tolerance for these two sieges, this would not be my recommendation for these. Both of the scores were low compared to my normal minimum scores (45k+ @ Chinatown, and 70k+ @ bolinas). Still, some tweeking may be able to be done to push this VLMG higher.

If the niche Volge LMGs are meant to fill is Plague Sieges, then I would conclude that: While not optimal, the Volge LMG is fine and does not need a buff.

*I preformed this evaluation with a orange Volge LMG that has 1207 base damage, and 2.7x crit mult (since all shots were hip shots). I did not use Gunslinger or Killing spree, which I do feel would have increased my score (with still some more theory-crafting that could have been done to ensure I was optimized for this weapon). I am also really concerned that this test was done with a orange Volge LMG, that was extremely well rolled for this specific task - especially Bolinas - (I added a x1.15 crit mod for this test), therefor others may not be able to yield similar results with lower tier versions.

*Edit: I did a second pass with a different orange VLMG at bolinas, so I could get a better Idea about the expected scoring range. I also modded it with green mods and picked up Gunslinger and Killing spree to better tweak for it. I got 61k; there were also fewer people at this one, so I had more time on stuff. This VLMG is also pretty good (cannoneer, .95reload, 1.03fire rate, .85reload, 1.10fire rate, and 15% DMG on next grenade). The real problem I have with these VLMGs for this application is hitting much fewer mobs at a time then I should be for this (with regard to Bolinas and Chinatown). The VLMG is definitely fun for these, but I don't expect to be changing my current recommendation - Detonators.

Hyperion5182
11-02-2013, 08:12 PM
Just last night scored 65K at an infected siege and 45K at a Volge siege where I stopped shooting with 5 minutes left - using a Volge LMG exclusively...

In fact a Volge LMG with a velocity buff and a decent Crit Mult will shower you with Crit kills as your projectile lands well before others.

As a Volge LMG user and a routine top scorer - I'd say your assessment of the weapon is lacking. Pickup a decent model, use it correctly, and easily dominate the competition.

Agreed i loved the Mark 1 and i got a mark 3 sitting at 4300 ego if i ever get to it.

I still keep the mark 1 around for sieges or any case i need long range heavy power but dont want the problems of an SR. Between that and a full auto shotgun that max reloads every time i have all main combat ranges covered.

The volge LMG is a BADASS and i'm only at 830 ego. I was top 10 in arkfalls and i've gotten 20K+ in sieges with it as primary. One of the things i love about it compared to other guns is how efficent it is ammo wise. Lots of damage for a single shot not gonna burn ammo like other AR's or LMG types

Though to be fair using a rocket launcher and an AR i just did 1.9 mill and got 1st place damage in a scrapper arkfall =) Still if i can find an upgraded one at 1k I'll switch back to the Volge Battle Rifle. Lots of ways to use that gun. =)

Liquidacid
11-03-2013, 04:10 AM
I like it but it's still not as much fun to spam during Arkfalls as the beta Plasma ball SMG was :(

Hyperion5182
11-03-2013, 05:33 AM
I like it but it's still not as much fun to spam during Arkfalls as the beta Plasma ball SMG was :(

Dude...aint nothing as fun as that...the problem was it was too OP. >.<

Liquidacid
11-03-2013, 07:07 AM
Dude...aint nothing as fun as that...the problem was it was too OP. >.<

nothing but full screen size balls of white light and cluster rockets everywhere!

think we ruined a few alpha live streams that way