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Overtkill21
11-04-2013, 11:16 AM
The weapon stats that are shared with us on the screen need to be changed.

All the talk about the Volge LMGs and their explosive capability got me thinking about other weapons that are unique to their class and how their stats don’t reflect this; like the Courier, Clustershot, and Volge LMG.

Why do we not see a Max/Min DMG, a Damage Radius, or a Velocity (aka Projectile Speed) on these weapons? Could these stats be added?

(Small aside: Shouldn’t all explosive weapons be able to get rolls and use mods that alter weapon mechanics such as Velocity, Damage Radius, or Max or Min DMG? I’d like a velocity scope for my Volge LMG and Courier please.)

Other stats should be changed as well:

-- Why show the Fire Rate stat on Sawed Off Shotguns – or the bloom for that matter?

-- Why can’t we see a Crit Mult value on a shotgun or any weapon other than an AR/SMG/LMG, Pistol, or Sniper Rifle?

-- How long is the det time on the Courier?

-- 2.00x Velocity brings my projectile speed to what value?


I’m sure there are tons more other players can think of – so hey Trion how about a stat overhaul?

Musashi
11-04-2013, 11:18 AM
Awesome questions, love answers to every single one to be honest.

alienstookmybeer
11-04-2013, 11:19 AM
And ADD FULL DAMAGE RADIUS.. don't make us guess what it is

Adrena Chrome
11-04-2013, 11:20 AM
Ha ha. Why is the sky blue....

Holy Bahamut3
11-04-2013, 11:32 AM
The weapon stats that are shared with us on the screen need to be changed.

All the talk about the Volge LMGs and their explosive capability got me thinking about other weapons that are unique to their class and how their stats don’t reflect this; like the Courier, Clustershot, and Volge LMG.

Why do we not see a Max/Min DMG, a Damage Radius, or a Velocity (aka Projectile Speed) on these weapons? Could these stats be added?

(Small aside: Shouldn’t all explosive weapons be able to get rolls and use mods that alter weapon mechanics such as Velocity, Damage Radius, or Max or Min DMG? I’d like a velocity scope for my Volge LMG and Courier please.)

Other stats should be changed as well:

-- Why show the Fire Rate stat on Sawed Off Shotguns – or the bloom for that matter?

-- Why can’t we see a Crit Mult value on a shotgun or any weapon other than an AR/SMG/LMG, Pistol, or Sniper Rifle?

-- How long is the det time on the Courier?

-- 2.00x Velocity brings my projectile speed to what value?


I’m sure there are tons more other players can think of – so hey Trion how about a stat overhaul?

Just wanted to mention this will probably create more "antique" weapons. Although I know I don't have to tell you that. Lol

Nilxain
11-04-2013, 11:49 AM
**Updated with Bonus, Mastery, and Synergy recaps - to make this a quicker read**

I really think they need to look VERY closely at a lot of things in order to "trim the fat." With respect to bonues, masteries and synergies.

I prepared this list a while back, but then they announced that they were removing revive stuff, giving damage values per tier, and even looking at adding bonuses to mods to balance things out some. So, in light of all of that I decided not to go ahead with it, because it seemed like they were making an honest effort.

Still, now that it has come up, I see no reason we can't help them by debating bonuses, masteries, and synergies we see as "fat."

Here's the list I started (I don't remember if I went as far with this as I intended, so I may come back and do some editing after the post - since this was a very raw rough draft):

Which Bonuses, Masteries, and Synergies Should Be on Which Weapons?

Thanks to JxSiN (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?117443-Sin-s-Ultimate-Guide-to-Weapon-Mods&p=1107997#post1107997) and Maverick07 (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?99055-Mav-s-Guide-to-Weapon-Bonus-Rolls-and-More&highlight=mav%27s+guide) I have been able to easily sort through the available bonuses, masteries, and synergies to make a list of which ones should go where.

**Notes:

-Above all of the following, what I think should be done is: The number of options should be drastically reduced, made generally versatile, and more "weapon"/"weapon type" specific (more attractive options and less unattractive ones).

-show us all relevant stats (accuracy, full damage radius, recoil, etc.)

-since synergies are a little bit different in their issues, I will include them separately at the end.

-In their current forms, some of these don’t make sense. If I included something that really doesn’t make sense, it’s because I think it can be adjusted in a such a way that it does make sense (example: DMG on a BMG could be a healing trade out that gives a significant increase/decrease making it more task oriented).

-I have excluded all of the revive, grenade (<---this was previous to the new grenade bonues changes; but I still think they could be better), ammo (except ammo on melee kill for shotgun), link time, charge and vehicle options – because I greatly dislike them, a different mechanic would do the same job, or they are/will be obsolete.

Bonuses

Crit mult (exclude bmgs and infectors)
Reload (all)
Recoil (exclude dets and RL, and maybe snipes)
Dmg (all: make it viable for DMGs)
Accuracy (exclude dets, Rl, infectors, and bmgs)
Mag (exclude infectors)
Fire rate (exclude snipers, sawed-offs, and BMG (or make it a significant thing for them))
Melee dmg (only shotguns; maybe RL's and Dets with increased base melee damages)
Full dmg radius (only dets and RL)
Max links (only bmgs)
Healing*added* (BMG)

25% Stowed Weapon Clip Reloaded on Kill - All Weapons
10% EGO Power Recharge on Full Reload - All Weapons
10% EGO Power Recharge on Critical Kill - AR/SMG/LMGs, Snipers, Pistols
25% Speed Boost for 5 Seconds After Explosive Kill - Detonators/RLs
25% of Clip Reloaded on Melee Kill - All Shotguns
10% Bug Damage 3 Seconds After Shield Refresh - Infectors

Bonus recap
There are too many bonuses for some weapons, too few for others, and the permutations are ridiculous. So, some weapons have more/better options, while the best thing going for other weapons is the fact that they don't have so much "fat" in them - making the chance of getting your combination of bonuses fall within the realm of your life time. And, some are so "lack luster" that you really don't care what you get.


Masteries

*NOTE: Among other things, one of the things I did in the following was to remove bonuses that gave a damage increase to the "the next shot" from weapons that rely heavily on a stream of shots for their damage. And, as I talk about at the end, I really don't like that the number of bonuses, masteries, and synergies, that "make sense," very depending on the weapon. I think this lack of balance makes the loot far too random, and having the weapons themselves unbalanced, in terms of interesting traits, is the sign of a unfinished system.

LMG/SM/AR (18 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult
Mag
Reload
Recoil
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)


Shotgun (24 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult (I don’t personally care about crit on my SG, but maybe someone does or maybe they will make the berserker (or similar) more DPS viable.)
Mag
Reload
recoil
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)
damage on next shot after kill
dmg from last shot in mag
melee dmg
melee when shields down
ammo on melee kill

Pistol (18 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult
Mag
Reload
recoil
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)

BMG (11 arguably make sense)

Dmg
Mag
Reload
less dmg while reloading
speed boost after reload
ego recharge on full reload
fire rate
health on reload
heal
damage to multiple targets (should also have a healing option)
link range

Infectors (10 arguably make sense)

Dmg
Reload
less dmg while reloading
speed boost after reload
ego recharge on full reload
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)
bug dmg

Sniper Rifles (20 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult
Mag
Reload
Recoil (since most of the time your fire rate is slower than your ability to reacquire your target, I’m not sure this one makes sense)
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload (this would really only apply from the ones you hip shoot – if those)
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)
damage on next shot after kill
dmg from last shot in mag


Detonators (21 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult (this is with plague sieges in mind)
Mag
Reload
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)
ego refresh on explosive kill
less dmg from your explosives
damage on next shot after kill
dmg from last shot in mag


Rocket Launchers (22 arguably make sense)

Dmg
crit mult
Mag
reload
dmg from above (personally I feel this one is too siuational)
less dmg while reloading
crit % while crouched
crit % from hip
dmg from behind
speed boost after reload
ego duration on crit kill
ego recharge on full reload
crit % to incoming targets
fire rate
health on reload
range (not sure if this effects fall off because this one may be infector specific atm. I think this should effect falloff and be included on more weapons)
damage on next shot after kill
dmg from last shot in mag
ego refresh on explosive kill
less dmg from your explosives
projectile speed after explosive kill

Mastery recap
There are far too many masteries, and the chance of getting the one you want is ridiculous. And, on top of that, they aren't even all balanced in number. So some weapons have more/better options, while the best thing going for other weapons is the fact that they don't have so much "fat" in them - making your chance of getting something useful fall within the realm of your life time. (Sound familiar?)


Synergies

*copied from the guide so people could easily see what they all do if they don’t know right off

**I’m going to be very strict here in the sense that if a synergy is available for a weapon all 4 tiers should make sense – I’ll put a note on this at the end explaining.

***These are the weapon types I'll use here: (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles).

Synergy: Assassin (pistols, Rocket Launchers, Sniper Rifles)
[1]: +2% Crit Mult
[2]: +4% Crit Mult
[3]: +5% DMG on next shot after critical kill (Expires after 10 sec)
[4]: +10% DMG on next shot after critical kill (Expires after 10 sec)

Synergy: Brutal (shotguns; maybe RL's and Dets with increased base melee damages)
[1] +5% Melee DMG
[2] +10% Melee DMG
[3] +5% Reload on Melee Kill
[4] +10% Reload on Melee Kill

Synergy: Cannoneer (AR/LMG/SMG, pistols, Shotguns)
[1] +3% Fire Rate
[2] +6% Fire Rate
[3] +10% nano-effect chance for 2 sec after full reload
[4] +20% nano-effect chance for 2 sec after full reload

Synergy: EGO Precision (VENDOR-- Shondu's Consulate) (AR/LMG/SMG, pistols, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[1] +10% Accuracy
[2] +20% Accuracy
[3] +3% active EGO ability duration on critical kill
[4] +6% active EGO ability duration on critical kill

Synergy: Grenadier (AR/LMG/SMG, pistols, Shotguns)
[1] -10% Recoil
[2] -20% Recoil
[3] +5% grenade refresh on kill (this is dmg now)
[4] +10% grenade refresh on kill (this is dmg now)

Synergy: Prepared (VENDOR-- Top-Notch Toolworks) (Shotguns)
[1] 1% ammo regen/10 sec
[2] 2% ammo regen/10 sec
[3] +5% DMG on next shot after melee kill (expires after 10 sec)
[4] +10% DMG on next shot after melee kill (expires after 10 sec)

Synergy: Quartermaster (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[1] +5% Reload
[2] +10% Reload
[3] +50% Reload on self-revive
[4] +100% Reload on self-revive

Synergy: Rolling Thunder (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns)
[1] +5% Mag
[2] +10% Mag
[3] +10% Hip Accuracy
[4] +20% Hip Accuracy

Synergy: Run-n-Gun (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, pistols, Shotguns)
[1] +5% Movement Accuracy
[2] +10% Movement Accuracy
[3] +10% Accuracy and -10% Recoil at low health
[4] +20% Accuracy and -20% Recoil at low health

Synergy: Scavenger (VENDOR-- The Crater) (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[1] +1% item drop chance
[2] +2% item drop chance
[3] +10% nano-effect chance against out-of-combat targets
[4] +20% nano-effect chance against out-of-combat targets

Synergy: Stalker (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[1] +5% Range
[2] +10% Range
[3] +5% EGO ability refresh on critical kill
[4] +10% EGO ability refresh on critical kill

Synergy: Hard-Boiled (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +2% refresh self-revive on a kill

Synergy: Machinist (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] Take 5% less damage while reloading

Synergy: Nano-Executioner (AR/LMG/SMG, pistols, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +5% nano-effect chance on a kill

Synergy: Nano-Mastery (AR/LMG/SMG, pistols, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +5% nano-effect chance on a critical hit

Synergy: Outlaw ( BMG, Detonators, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +5% damage from last shot in clip

Synergy: Sawbones (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] Fully reload weapons after reviving another player

Synergy: Survivalist (Detonators, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +2% damage to targets with full health and shields

Synergy: Veteran (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles (I’m in conflict on this one)
[2] +10% rate-of-fire after a full reload

Synergy: Wrecker (AR/LMG/SMG, BMG, Detonators, Infectors, pistols, Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles)
[2] +10% DMG to vehicles


Synergy recap/explanation
Ok, so after the synergies section many of you guys are probably saying,"Hey man, WTF! The second half of that synergy is GREAT for this weapon." But, I will ask you to ask yourself: Is this really how synergies should be? Or, are we just used to getting a watered down, half a**, version of a synergy because very little of it is done right?

Example:

Synergy: Assassin (pistols, Rocket Launchers, Sniper Rifles)
[1]: +2% Crit Mult
[2]: +4% Crit Mult
[3]: +5% DMG on next shot after critical kill (Expires after 10 sec)
[4]: +10% DMG on next shot after critical kill (Expires after 10 sec)

Some of you might be saying, "that extra crit is great for my AR/SMG/LMG! Why in the hell would you take that from me?!?!?! >.<"

My answer is:

I really don't want to. Instead, I want to show how few synergies are actually good all around. What I would like to see are synergies on weapons that make complete sense.

Here is my version of the assassin synergy:

Synergy: Assassin
[1]: +2% Crit Mult
[2]: +4% Crit Mult
[3]: +5% DMG for the next 10 sec after a critical kill
[4]: +10% DMG for the next 10 sec after a critical kill

This way it makes more sense for more weapons. If 10 sec is too much, make it 5 or 3. The point is to make it useful for ALL of the weapons it is available for, while giving ALL weapons equally attractive options that are each viable for different possible applications and play styles. Putting all the synergies on all the weapons just inflates the system and waters down the options.

A reoccurring theme in this whole system (bonuses, masteries, and synergies) is a lack of organization and a general unbalanced approach to weapons as a whole. All three categories could use a rework where each weapon has the same number of each category available (Example: 3 bonus options, 6 mastery, 4 synergy available to each weapon but not always the same one across all weapons - only the 5 that make sense, etc.). That way each weapon has 'x' number of possible of 'y' category and every single one of them makes sense and is desirable for different tasks or approaches taken with that weapon.

Overtkill21
11-04-2013, 03:40 PM
@ Bahamut – I agree that, if acted upon, this may have the unintended consequence of shining a harsh light on weapons that do not function correctly. If so I can say I am truly sorry to the owners of those weapons – but I don’t believe it is better to live in ignorance.

I’d like to see a universal list of weapon stats on every weapon – where inapplicable stats are indicated as “N/A”. It would require us to scroll through each weapon’s stat list but would certainly be easier to code than to have individual weapons show specific stats only.
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@ Nilxain – I had begun work on something very, very similar to that a long, long time ago when I cared a bit more – a very good job! (Though I’d argue a few points – like the viability of “crit from the hip” on a sniper rifle. ;))

I think you should make it a thread of its’ own so we can all share our input. Call it a Roll Overhaul thread! (You can still give props to Mav & JxSin of course – JxSin doesn’t play anymore sadly, he was one of the 4 Commission Members – our small clan of four which is now a clan of one.)

They’ve already overhauled weapons, so now let’s do rolls and stats – we can play Defiance free from the shadowy comfort of ignorance!

Nilxain
11-04-2013, 05:29 PM
I think you should make it a thread of its’ own so we can all share our input.



Done :-)

(msg too short)

Mess7739
11-04-2013, 07:57 PM
I wish Trion would let us see ALL the stats, numbers seem to scare them a lot, usually if you can manipulate something in games then the game shows how you manipulated it. I haven't seen a numbered value for Accuracy, Radius, Velocity or Melee stat on any weapon or Health and Health Regen which leaves it to players to figure out. I don't mind figuring things out for myself or going over some of the awesome work other players have done, it just gets under my skin a bit that they don't show these stats, leave players to figure them out and then I hear about "Max Caps".

"They have Max Caps so weapons don't get Over Powered."
Who cares?

Yes some weapons will be better than most but thats the whole reason for random rolls and hunting for really good mods and if someone creates an OP weapon using this method then good for them, they deserve it. Your goal as an Ark Hunter is to become Over Powered to destroy your enemies so you can collect Ark Salvage and become rich.

Please show us the numbers, remove the restrictions, have the math work and let us ascend into Rare Epic-dary Ark-dom.