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crasher
11-25-2013, 02:16 PM
For clarity, I know the game is not a documentary.

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?98927-Upcoming-Sight-Mods-Changes&highlight=scope+change

"Hi there!

My name’s GaryStelmack and I’m a senior designer on the mechanics team. Our team’s focus is on pretty much everything that you can make your character do: from jumping to shooting to driving to EGO Powers.

[snip 4 paragraphs]

Assault weapon mods

The scope overlay from the maneuver accuracy mods will be removed. Restricting peripheral vision with the scope overlay is antithetical to the idea of these mods which seek to improve your ability to use the gun effectively while moving."

[snip the rest]
==============================

Looking thru the scope tube is fine.
I dont have to give up a scope tube/zoom/reticle to be able to have peripheral vision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_relief
If you think for a moment that it's in any way 'normal' to put your eye 'to/on' the scope and pull the trigger, I recommend you go TO the range with your medical card pinned to your sweater-vest, so the EMTs can sort it out easier.

"If the eye relief of a telescopic sight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescopic_sight) is too short, leaving the eye close to the sight, the firearm's recoil can force the optic to strike the skin around the shooter's eye, leaving a cut. This is frequently called the "idiot cut" due to the obvious and long-lasting nature of such a mistake. "

The completely blinding black surround is stupid. I'm just getting tired of the dev's weapons ignorance in a shooter game.

It's not real.
It's not realistic.
It's not how anyone who has ever used a scope would ever use a scope.

It IS just one more detail the dev's put into the game to be frustrating and annoying.

What is it with games that requires them to to take simple shtako and just make it breathtakingly stupid.

You want to make it 'harder than actually normal'?
Make the surround blurred, or hazy.
YTF do you make me blind?

And another pro-tip for the devs:
They're 'Mags', not 'Clips'.

I know you live a Frito and Mt. Dew infused life style.
But some of us do care about honesty and the appearance of just a modicum of attention to detail.
You manage to mangle the small stuff, and you wonder why we assume you don't know wtf you're doing when your latest bug patch broke the previous bug patch that took you months to figure out and hand craft.


It's just the 1,004 stupid-azzed little things that drive me up the wall.

johnwayne777
11-25-2013, 02:23 PM
wow u mad lol

Bane_Of_Legends
11-25-2013, 02:29 PM
Yeah, he's mad. But if you think about it, it's not for a bad reason.
What he says is true. You don't close an eye when shooting. That was made up by Hollywood.

crasher
11-25-2013, 02:32 PM
wow u mad lol

Not mad :)

Just annoyed.
Lotta time in shooting at stuff, and knowing how it really works, is all.

I'm an Arkhunter, right?
I know how to stay alive, else I wouldn't be an Arkhunter and still alive.

I don't close my eye to shoot at stuff that's trying to kill me.

DIS
11-25-2013, 02:36 PM
I close an eye when using a cope but only because the eye I close is damn near blind and doesn't do any good when using a scope with the good eye. I too, however, wish they would make scopes more realistic. I can close my off eye on my own, the people with two good eyes should not be forced to do the same.

Deunan
11-25-2013, 02:50 PM
Even animals know you don't close your eye when sniping.

http://anddomestic.com/images/sniper_kitty_1.jpg

Elastik Spastik
11-25-2013, 03:00 PM
Not mad :)

Just annoyed.
Lotta time in shooting at stuff, and knowing how it really works, is all.

I'm an Arkhunter, right?
I know how to stay alive, else I wouldn't be an Arkhunter and still alive.

I don't close my eye to shoot at stuff that's trying to kill me.

Im british army and when we use scopes on the range we close one eye to aim. So we see only what is down the scope. Obviously we adjust scope to leave a big enough gap to prevent eye injury during shooting. But your eye is still close enough to see only what you see through the sight. I think thats what the dev was aiming at. Look through a toilet roll with one eye then both eyes. With both eyes the vision can be diistorted as we see slightly different visions in each eye. Making it difficult to aim down the scope properly. Thus making it useless. Even aiming down an ironsight we close one eye.

Cyphre
11-25-2013, 03:11 PM
I've read through the original post and finding it difficult to understand, other than some blind assertion that devs are speaking incorrectly about real world mechanics... back in June.

I read through the linked topic as well for the changes that were made and all I am seeing is the mention of a change to how some sights now function without a scope overlay, because it narrows your field of vision. All of which are basic game terminology, making reference only to the philosophy of optics in game and their use while moving.

Also fairly sure we see both magazines and clips present when it comes to these crazy futuristic weapons we're wielding. Unless you were the designer or modeler for all of the guns, it's a bit of an assumption to state they all use magazines by default.

crasher
11-25-2013, 03:27 PM
Im british army and when we use scopes on the range we close one eye to aim. So we see only what is down the scope. Obviously we adjust scope to leave a big enough gap to prevent eye injury during shooting. But your eye is still close enough to see only what you see through the sight. I think thats what the dev was aiming at. Look through a toilet roll with one eye then both eyes. With both eyes the vision can be diistorted as we see slightly different visions in each eye. Making it difficult to aim down the scope properly. Thus making it useless. Even aiming down an ironsight we close one eye.

Left eye dominant, righty shooter, so I had to learn to shoot lefty to make it easier.
At least I can shoot well off-hand, around either corner of a building. :)

All the weapons training I've had always stressed keeping both eyes open to avoid distortion from squint and to keep situational awareness.
S/A is specifically useful to acquire/reacquire the target quickly without waving the weapon around trying to find it with the scope.

I accept that there are many ways to solve the same problem.

The method we have here just happens to be completely foreign to my training, so it grates on my nerves.

Elastik Spastik
11-25-2013, 03:29 PM
Left eye dominant, righty shooter, so I had to learn to shoot lefty to make it easier.
At least I can shoot well off-hand, around either corner of a building. :)

All the weapons training I've had always stressed keeping both eyes open to avoid distortion from squint and to keep situational awareness.

I accept that there are many ways to solve the same problem.

The method we have here just happens to be completely foreign to my training, so it grates on my nerves.

I see. Everywhere trains different. Though the only scope I use in the game is sniper anyway. Don't like it on any other weapons.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-25-2013, 03:37 PM
Grandpa is a retired U.S. army vet. He taught me to aim with the eye that uses the scope, and to let the other eye stay open yet unfocused. It felt awkward to me to keep both eyes open, but he said the reason for that was in case the target moved quickly out of the scope view. The other open eye let's you keep track of what direction the target moves so you can quickly reacquire it in the scope. Made sense, and it became easier after some target practice.

crasher
11-25-2013, 03:42 PM
General comment - The reload animation shows mag loading, not clip loading, not that it matters.



I see. Everywhere trains different. Though the only scope I use in the game is sniper anyway. Don't like it on any other weapons.
I'm finishing up my 5K assault rifle skills on alt-account 'Toon #4.
FRC Heavy Assault Carbine, +11 fall-off barrel, and a Stab scope make a reasonable sniper for those fast-paced sniper moments considering the draw distance blows chunks.

Elastik Spastik
11-25-2013, 03:51 PM
I like garlic bread.

crasher
11-25-2013, 03:54 PM
I like garlic bread.

http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=20384

TrickDempsey
11-25-2013, 03:56 PM
Unfortunately, our engine supports neither binocular vision nor, more importantly, multiple FOVs in a single render window. Ideally, scoped view would just place a scope in front or your vision, moving the game camera just over the stock, and you would experience normal vision around the scope and telescopic vision when looking through the scope. Unfortunately, the Defiance engine does not support such chicanery. So we have to make do with what we have.

When I fire a rifle, I do what I was taught to do, and keep both eyes open. Personally, I mostly shoot skeet, so I don't actually deal with scopes or rifles. But, whatever. I certainly keep both eyes open during that because otherwise I'd hit ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because, as you know, leading is incredibly important in skeet shooting.

Knowing the limitations of our engine, we must work within it to create significant player decisions. As such, the black matte creates a tunnel vision that makes the decision to scope a more significant one and allows us to significantly compress the FOV without creating insane visual artifacts around the periphery.

So, yes, were we making a military simulation game, we would definitely support the dual focal length that people really experience while hunting or in the battlefield.

Bonehead
11-25-2013, 04:02 PM
I like garlic bread.

@spaz
meeee tooooo

@crasher
You made me laugh out loud with the range talk.One of the many firearms I own is a scoped 45-70 marlin. I load for it and it can take some high chamber pressures so the eye relief has to be generous. It has kissed my brow a couple of times but never broken the skin.
I used to have a ruger #1 chambered in 460 wby mag. I sold it because there was nothing at all fun about shooting it and there are no cape buffalo in WA. Squeezing that trigger was like getting kicked square on by a rabid mule on coke!
Thanks for another good post.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-25-2013, 04:12 PM
Unfortunately, our engine supports neither binocular vision nor, more importantly, multiple FOVs in a single render window. Ideally, scoped view would just place a scope in front or your vision, moving the game camera just over the stock, and you would experience normal vision around the scope and telescopic vision when looking through the scope. Unfortunately, the Defiance engine does not support such chicanery. So we have to make do with what we have.

When I fire a rifle, I do what I was taught to do, and keep both eyes open. Personally, I mostly shoot skeet, so I don't actually deal with scopes or rifles. But, whatever. I certainly keep both eyes open during that because otherwise I'd hit ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because, as you know, leading is incredibly important in skeet shooting.

Knowing the limitations of our engine, we must work within it to create significant player decisions. As such, the black matte creates a tunnel vision that makes the decision to scope a more significant one and allows us to significantly compress the FOV without creating insane visual artifacts around the periphery.

So, yes, were we making a military simulation game, we would definitely support the dual focal length that people really experience while hunting or in the battlefield.

Great Dev answer! :D

crasher
11-25-2013, 04:18 PM
[snip]

When I fire a rifle, I do what I was taught to do, and keep both eyes open. Personally, I mostly shoot skeet, so I don't actually deal with scopes or rifles. But, whatever. I certainly keep both eyes open during that because otherwise I'd hit ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because, as you know, leading is incredibly important in skeet shooting.

[snip]

Thank you, Sir, for your whole answer, and specifically that part.

Bone: AR's, almost no recoil. Even in 300BLK.
Thats where I draw my line anymore :)

Lillith Valerian
11-25-2013, 08:20 PM
Unfortunately, our engine supports neither binocular vision nor, more importantly, multiple FOVs in a single render window. Ideally, scoped view would just place a scope in front or your vision, moving the game camera just over the stock, and you would experience normal vision around the scope and telescopic vision when looking through the scope. Unfortunately, the Defiance engine does not support such chicanery. So we have to make do with what we have.

When I fire a rifle, I do what I was taught to do, and keep both eyes open. Personally, I mostly shoot skeet, so I don't actually deal with scopes or rifles. But, whatever. I certainly keep both eyes open during that because otherwise I'd hit ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because, as you know, leading is incredibly important in skeet shooting.

Knowing the limitations of our engine, we must work within it to create significant player decisions. As such, the black matte creates a tunnel vision that makes the decision to scope a more significant one and allows us to significantly compress the FOV without creating insane visual artifacts around the periphery.

So, yes, were we making a military simulation game, we would definitely support the dual focal length that people really experience while hunting or in the battlefield.

My mother taught me to keep both eyes open also, but I've always assumed that black overlay in games was due to engine limitations.

You can't leave with the most important question left lying unanswered though, Dempsey.

Do you or do you not like garlic bread?

Elastik Spastik
11-25-2013, 08:26 PM
Everybody should like garic bread.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-25-2013, 08:37 PM
Everybody should like garic bread.

Motion seconded.
Those who do not like garlic bread shall be subjected to the horror of being stuffed with lima beans and brussel sprouts till their bellies bulge bigger than Jennifer Lopez's bubble butt.

Oshduckman
11-25-2013, 09:33 PM
Motion seconded.
Those who do not like garlic bread shall be subjected to the horror of being stuffed with lima beans and brussel sprouts till their bellies bulge bigger than Jennifer Lopez's bubble butt.

motion carried

Atticus Batman
11-25-2013, 09:43 PM
motion carried

Denied, unless you allow exemptions! I do not like garlic bread because I am slightly allergic to garlic and that much garlic causes breathing issues. A little mixed into a big pot of soup or something is fine, but enough to constitute good or even decent garlic bread is BAD for the Bat. On a side note, even a little bit of rice can be deadly to this bat. Good thing I like couscous!

Oshduckman
11-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Denied, unless you allow exemptions! I do not like garlic bread because I am slightly allergic to garlic and that much garlic causes breathing issues. A little mixed into a big pot of soup or something is fine, but enough to constitute good or even decent garlic bread is BAD for the Bat. On a side note, even a little bit of rice can be deadly to this bat. Good thing I like couscous!
hmmm well superman has kryptonite....didn't know batman hated garlic...and rice is deadly to him

Bane_Of_Legends
11-26-2013, 06:11 AM
Denied, unless you allow exemptions! I do not like garlic bread because I am slightly allergic to garlic and that much garlic causes breathing issues. A little mixed into a big pot of soup or something is fine, but enough to constitute good or even decent garlic bread is BAD for the Bat. On a side note, even a little bit of rice can be deadly to this bat. Good thing I like couscous!

A bat allergic to garlic? Hmmm.. There is only one possible explanation....
VAMPIRE! Stake it through the heart, chop off its head, and burn the body to ash!

Atticus Batman
11-26-2013, 06:35 PM
A bat allergic to garlic? Hmmm.. There is only one possible explanation....
VAMPIRE! Stake it through the heart, chop off its head, and burn the body to ash!

Wow! Your really ARE a Bane to us legends! Van Helsing is that you?!
http://ccjhs.shcsc.k12.in.us/Dracula/Van%20Helsing.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uXrpZBmU5kw/T7YxEu2FE1I/AAAAAAAAE24/txiQvHdiQNY/s1600/vanhelsing6.jpg

Bane_Of_Legends
11-26-2013, 07:24 PM
Wow! Your really ARE a Bane to us legends! Van Helsing is that you?!
http://ccjhs.shcsc.k12.in.us/Dracula/Van%20Helsing.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uXrpZBmU5kw/T7YxEu2FE1I/AAAAAAAAE24/txiQvHdiQNY/s1600/vanhelsing6.jpg

Imagine Van Helsing, Blade, Sherlock Holmes, Leonidas, Beowulf, Luke Skywalker, Master Chief, Harry Potter, Legolas, and Captain Kirk, all rolled into one being.

thejx4
11-26-2013, 09:29 PM
Unfortunately, our engine supports neither binocular vision nor, more importantly, multiple FOVs in a single render window. Ideally, scoped view would just place a scope in front or your vision, moving the game camera just over the stock, and you would experience normal vision around the scope and telescopic vision when looking through the scope. Unfortunately, the Defiance engine does not support such chicanery. So we have to make do with what we have.

When I fire a rifle, I do what I was taught to do, and keep both eyes open. Personally, I mostly shoot skeet, so I don't actually deal with scopes or rifles. But, whatever. I certainly keep both eyes open during that because otherwise I'd hit ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because, as you know, leading is incredibly important in skeet shooting.

Knowing the limitations of our engine, we must work within it to create significant player decisions. As such, the black matte creates a tunnel vision that makes the decision to scope a more significant one and allows us to significantly compress the FOV without creating insane visual artifacts around the periphery.

So, yes, were we making a military simulation game, we would definitely support the dual focal length that people really experience while hunting or in the battlefield.

Since you're being honest here, do you think Defiance has a good engine? For a game that launched in 2013, do you truly feel it has a good engine?

Oshduckman
11-26-2013, 11:22 PM
Imagine Van Helsing, Blade, Sherlock Holmes, Leonidas, Beowulf, Luke Skywalker, Master Chief, Harry Potter, Legolas, and Captain Kirk, all rolled into one being.

extreme overkill

Mike Chone
11-27-2013, 01:26 AM
If we're going for realism though, you should have a spotter and a range finder to tell you what to set your mildots on as well.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 06:06 AM
If we're going for realism though, you should have a spotter and a range finder to tell you what to set your mildots on as well.

Battlefield games have range finders I believe.
Out of all the games I've player, Sniper: Ghost Warrior had the most realistic sniping experience.
But even that was too easy because there was a dot in your scope that would tell you where your shot would land.
To have a spotter, you'd need another player with the patience to cover you while you're sniping, and give range estimates.
Not many people have that patience or knowledge.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 06:07 AM
extreme overkill

Better to overkill than to underkill.

Fulmen
11-27-2013, 06:51 AM
Battlefield games have range finders I believe.
Out of all the games I've player, Sniper: Ghost Warrior had the most realistic sniping experience.
But even that was too easy because there was a dot in your scope that would tell you where your shot would land.
To have a spotter, you'd need another player with the patience to cover you while you're sniping, and give range estimates.
Not many people have that patience or knowledge.

That could possibly be very interesting gameplay, for "real" sniper situations, over long distances and well-hidden somewhere.
But the sniper gameplay in Defiance, as I experienced it so far, seems to be more mid-range, and it's not really worth it to spend much time and effort in choosing a good place to snipe from, since you'll likely be on the move a minute later anyway.

May be different in pvp, I haven't tried that yet.

Elastik Spastik
11-27-2013, 07:08 AM
Sniper isnt that good because of the draw distance. I love sitting up on a high spot covering my teammates before going in to help clean up and collect the rewards. But theres not many places in defiance to do it properly. There needs to be a proper draw distance.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 07:30 AM
That could possibly be very interesting gameplay, for "real" sniper situations, over long distances and well-hidden somewhere.
But the sniper gameplay in Defiance, as I experienced it so far, seems to be more mid-range, and it's not really worth it to spend much time and effort in choosing a good place to snipe from, since you'll likely be on the move a minute later anyway.

May be different in pvp, I haven't tried that yet.

Game draw distance is 100 meters. Which means to track a target, you'll have to be within 90 or below meters. Else you risk the chance of them moving out of the 100 meter draw distance. Not exactly the optimal distance for snipers.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 07:34 AM
Sniper isnt that good because of the draw distance. I love sitting up on a high spot covering my teammates before going in to help clean up and collect the rewards. But theres not many places in defiance to do it properly. There needs to be a proper draw distance.

I imagine the draw distance is so low, because the engine can't handle showing more than 100 meters in any direction. I'm not entirely sure how the sniper rifles work in relation to the game mechanics, but why not just move the players camera forward 50 or so meters, and have it then display 100 meters in the direction it's pointing. Like having your character stand there, looking forward 100 meters, but instead, only the viewing camera is there and the players actual body is 50 meters back. Would make for a maximum viewing distance of 150 meters, without actually showing more than 100 meters. I think. Someone with more knowledge, please give input.

Deathshot
11-27-2013, 07:35 AM
So what games has both eyes open with in scope? Would like to experience it.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 07:38 AM
Any game that has you looking through a scope, but has a blurred image of your surroundings around the scope.
I've played some but can't remember their names.
The point of showing only what you see through the scope is to put less stress on the game engine.
Otherwise you're risking a crash.

Atticus Batman
11-27-2013, 10:10 AM
That could possibly be very interesting gameplay, for "real" sniper situations, over long distances and well-hidden somewhere.
But the sniper gameplay in Defiance, as I experienced it so far, seems to be more mid-range, and it's not really worth it to spend much time and effort in choosing a good place to snipe from, since you'll likely be on the move a minute later anyway.

May be different in pvp, I haven't tried that yet.

Pvp has a kill come, so the moment you kill somebody, they ARE shown your exact location. Therefore snipers HAVE to move to a new place, the moment they land a killshot.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 10:27 AM
Pvp has a kill come, so the moment you kill somebody, they ARE shown your exact location. Therefore snipers HAVE to move to a new place, the moment they land a killshot.

Whether they care enough to go after you, especially if you're 300 or so meters away, is what matters. I've had a few times when playing as a sniper class that I've found someone determined enough to hunt down my location just for a revenge kill. Simple issue, especially in games where I can set up defenses. By the time anyone gets to my spot, I usually have had time to pop off 2 or 3 more killshots and hit the road. Which leaves my bouncing betty to greet them upon their arrival. :D

But of course, that's in games that have draw distances larger than 100 meters.

Atticus Batman
11-27-2013, 10:38 AM
Whether they care enough to go after you, especially if you're 300 or so meters away, is what matters. I've had a few times when playing as a sniper class that I've found someone determined enough to hunt down my location just for a revenge kill. Simple issue, especially in games where I can set up defenses. By the time anyone gets to my spot, I usually have had time to pop off 2 or 3 more killshots and hit the road. Which leaves my bouncing betty to greet them upon their arrival. :D

But of course, that's in games that have draw distances larger than 100 meters.

That is when I use cloak. I fire and get the kill, THEN I cloak and move to a different location, so the killed or their clanmates looking for their killer can't find me, even if the nade my last location since I moved on to a different spot(usually overlooking the last, so I can kill those coming for me.) That is when I BOTHER with PvP.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 10:41 AM
That is when I use cloak. I fire and get the kill, THEN I cloak and move to a different location, so the killed or their clanmates looking for their killer can't find me, even if the nade my last location since I moved on to a different spot(usually overlooking the last, so I can kill those coming for me.) That is when I BOTHER with PvP.

THAT is the only way to play as a sniper in Defiance. Currently. Hopefully the 100 meter rendering distance issue will be changed at some point.

zzzornbringer
11-27-2013, 11:45 AM
i figure, you use real guns?! are you in the army? do you hunt animals? why?

why do you refer to RL? this is a video game. it consists of gameplay mechanics and stuff. why don't you take this fact and base your argumentation on this? why do you have to make a RL connection? it does not make any sense to use the RL argument in a video game.

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 12:03 PM
Because in a video game based on Earth and everything on it, you have to have a certain level of realism, otherwise it feels like you're playing on some foreign alien world. Asking why we want realism in a video game is like asking why there are people running around on their feet in the game, instead of flying through the air on fart fuel, or why there are vehicles with four wheels driving around, instead of giant fish flopping around on land.

P.S. Anyone with common sense would know about effective range, bullet dropoff, windage adjustment, and the like.

crasher
11-27-2013, 04:40 PM
Because in a video game based on Earth and everything on it, [snip for brevity]



Thank you...

Bane_Of_Legends
11-27-2013, 07:30 PM
Thank you...

Thank you, kind pony. :D

Darrow
11-28-2013, 03:35 AM
Hey guys, sorry I'm late.

I... heard there was garlic bread?

Bane_Of_Legends
11-28-2013, 09:31 AM
Hey guys, sorry I'm late.

I... heard there was garlic bread?

*gives you my last piece* Use it wisely; tis a bane to vampires, yet a blessing to your tummy.