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View Full Version : To do away with natural health regeneration. yeh or nay?



Nefarious
12-05-2013, 04:08 PM
I think that since stims (health potions) are making their way into the game that natural health regeneration we get should be cut. Health regeneration should be done through stims, shield bonuses, and the Regeneration perk.

Also take away the self healing ability of BMGs and have it only to be able to heal others.

Bane_Of_Legends
12-05-2013, 04:33 PM
I think that since stims (health potions) are making their way into the game that natural health regeneration we get should be cut. Health regeneration should be done through stims, shield bonuses, and the Regeneration perk.

Also take away the self healing ability of BMGs and have it only to be able to heal others.

Doing this would make the very small playerbase that thinks this game is somehow "too hard" have an even more difficult time with it.
Then they'd ask that health be raised to 10,000 and every weapon be a one-shotter.
And they'd STILL find something to complain about.
"Oh, the challenge timers are too short! Oh, the volge kill me when I stand in front of them for extended periods of time like a fool! Oh, the hulker is too big and strong, he needs to be reskinned as a little bunny rabbit that throws carrots at you that do 1 damage each!"
Need I continue?

Whippersnapper
12-05-2013, 04:56 PM
I post to politely ask that you let this thread die.

Seriously, what's wrong with you? You voluntarily offer up nerf ideas?!

Just let it go. Drop the subject and we will all forget this ugliness ever happened.

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 05:26 PM
I post to politely ask that you let this thread die.

Seriously, what's wrong with you? You voluntarily offer up nerf ideas?!

Just let it go. Drop the subject and we will all forget this ugliness ever happened.

Well with idea of health stims...and Spikes, I forgot about those, we have all these things filling our HP up.

And the fact that since HP would need to be filled by other means -- things that cost scrip -- then perhaps the higher capacity shields with slower recharge times would be more lucrative to use since guarding and protecting our HP would have more meaning.

Deunan
12-05-2013, 06:00 PM
It's not going to happen so it doesn't matter what you think or say.

I hated spikes and stims the moment I heard about them but Trion's implementing them with the intent to make players even more out of scale with the content than they are now, not to proxy for other things that are already in the game.

Bane_Of_Legends
12-05-2013, 06:19 PM
It's not going to happen so it doesn't matter what you think or say.

I hated spikes and stims the moment I heard about them but Trion's implementing them with the intent to make players even more out of scale with the content than they are now, not to proxy for other things that are already in the game.

Your pic and sig from an anime?
If so, please tell me the name.

Deunan
12-05-2013, 06:35 PM
Your pic and sig from an anime?
If so, please tell me the name.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVo1pxtJZM

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 06:47 PM
It's not going to happen so it doesn't matter what you think or say.


I think it's going to happen.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2562/lz2.gif

Bane_Of_Legends
12-05-2013, 06:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVo1pxtJZM

Beyond epic...

crasher
12-05-2013, 06:54 PM
I think that since stims (health potions) are making their way into the game that natural health regeneration we get should be cut. Health regeneration should be done through stims, shield bonuses, and the Regeneration perk.

Also take away the self healing ability of BMGs and have it only to be able to heal others.
So you're saying that I now HAVE to buy the DLC package to be able to play the game the way YOU want to change it?

How's about you just ask them to make it pay-to-win, too, so that even fewer people can compete and just wander off to leave you all alone on your private servers?

http://cdn.defiance.com/defiance/img/forum/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Deunan http://cdn.defiance.com/defiance/img/forum/buttons/lastpost-right.png (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?p=1339098#post1339098)
It's not going to happen so it doesn't matter what you think or say.


I think it's going to happen.


I think I'm not liking the world you live in.

I know.
Hows about we do away with any weapons you don't get in the DLC, and the rest of us can Judo-chop the Volge?

Deunan
12-05-2013, 07:06 PM
So you're saying that I now HAVE to buy the DLC package to be able to play the game the way YOU want to change it?Spikes and stims are free content. They will be a scrip sink if you use them regularly but I don't intend to use them at all.

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 07:22 PM
I think its a good suggestion to do this. A lot of shooters that have 'shields' do it this way. Your shield protects your HP Bar. Over time your HP gets chipped away making the AI more of a threat.

And so does a lot of Fantasy Adventure D&D type games do it this way. Your health and mana pools just don't fill up on their own without the help of some kind of item or what not.

There are enough ppl running around at major events to help each other up, no one dies, and if so no big deal, 180 scrip revive. Get revived right back into things. Don't get sent back town or anything.

On top of all the ways keeping us alive now we are going to get Health Stims which fill your life up and Ego Spikes to regenerate health. Along with our characters base health regeneration. Things are easy enough and they are going to be a lot easier.

I for one like the idea of having to take cover and gain strategic position to help with survivability. As things are now I need to charge in face first to get put down, let alone all this new stuff to buff HP with...there will be no struggle to not fail. That's not fun.

Chump Norris
12-05-2013, 08:08 PM
I for one like the idea of having to take cover and gain strategic position to help with survivability. As things are now I need to charge in face first to get put down, let alone all this new stuff to buff HP with...there will be no struggle to not fail. That's not fun.

That would maybe be cool if this game has an actual cover system. Anyway my vote is hell nay **** their stims im not going to use those.

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 08:15 PM
**** their stims im not going to use those.

If HP was dependent on stims you might.

kendillin
12-05-2013, 08:32 PM
Spikes and stims are free content. They will be a scrip sink if you use them regularly but I don't intend to use them at all.

I'll use 'em if there's a pursuit involved.
And to dump them out of inventory.

I honestly can't remember the last game I played you didn't regenerate health.

Deunan
12-05-2013, 08:34 PM
If HP was dependent on stims you might.Not if you have half a brain. As you mentioned they have little practical value at large co-op events where it's kind of hard to get killed and easy to get revived (or in the case of a Siege the extraction point is really close by and sometimes inside the Siege zone itself). It makes no sense if you're soloing something like a conflict location either for the same reason. Paying 180 scrip for an extraction with instant EGO regeneration is better than using an item that costs over 3000 scrip from a vendor any day of the week.

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 08:41 PM
Not if you have half a brain. As you mentioned they have little practical value at large co-op events where it's kind of hard to get killed and easy to get revived (or in the case of a Siege the extraction point is really close by and sometimes inside the Siege zone itself). It makes no sense if you're soloing something like a conflict location either for the same reason. Paying 180 scrip for an extraction with instant EGO regeneration is better than using an item that costs over 3000 scrip from a vendor any day of the week.

That's kind of a problem then. Maybe dying should have more dire consequences.

DanteYoda
12-05-2013, 09:00 PM
I have to say nay, i like it as it is now, i hate no Regen, and its just a unnecessary fix like the grenades etc, I'd much rather see trion fix stuff that actually needs it, honestly this is very small on the scale of needs..

Not everything in game should be epically hard to be fun, honestly it will just make yet another group leave the game, which is bad..

A simple fix for a lot of events is add more mobs, a lot more..at least on the PC version. it would be a lot harder then due to so many and limited ammo.

samuelsinn
12-05-2013, 09:23 PM
deep deep in the future of this game. i see it turning to free to play and all DLCs being pay.

the stems would be handy when going agenst a boss. say the new large boss that is comeing out in the ark braker DLC, or when your co oping agenst the dogtown mine boss or the final boss or any new boss that thay come out with,

i for one say keep regen and keep the health system the way it is. and every one else. stop crying about it and go back to killing hell bugs and darkmatter and scraper. and start shouting for better cars with guns

Mess7739
12-05-2013, 09:41 PM
1. They fixed chat so players can group more often and communicate to each other effectively.
2. They toned down the BMG's graphics.
3. They lowered the price of stims and spikes to be equal or slightly greater than an uncommon weapon's sell price.
4. They made a pursuit requiring stim and spike usage.
5. They could recode the game without ****ing anything else up.

I don't see it happening :( decent idea though. I replaced my "Survivor" loadout with a "Combat Support" loadout filled with revive oriented perks just in time for the influx of new players. I sparingly used my BMG and being the go to guy reviving and pistol whipping baddies with my Wolf-Hound was pretty fun, until that spot in the Motherlode where you fight that large group of 99ers and the Blacklung, that took forever and was not fun. :p

Nefarious
12-05-2013, 09:51 PM
deep deep in the future of this game. i see it turning to free to play and all DLCs being pay.

the stems would be handy when going agenst a boss. say the new large boss that is comeing out in the ark braker DLC, or when your co oping agenst the dogtown mine boss or the final boss or any new boss that thay come out with,




Yeah but like Deunan said "Paying 180 scrip for an extraction with instant EGO regeneration is better than using an item that costs over 3000 scrip from a vendor"

So the if you die against the new Warmaster you just extract right back into the same place in the Ark, it doesint kick you out. If death was a factor and you got sent back to town or something then using health stims ect. would be a priority to use. But its not. Its actually better to die in certain situations then it would be to have to use a stim pack.

Bonehead
12-05-2013, 10:31 PM
I vote neigh in favor of horse armor.
No but really I vote nay because health regens slowly without a shield augment and the stims come in many forms not just health. I like the power stims and the damage spikes are fun too. Yea I like them both. It is borrowed straight from firefall but it works for me. If it makes the game too easy for you you are free to not use them but it took me a very long time for this game to seem easy to me and even now after 2000+ hours I can still get my *** handed to me if I do something stupid.
BTW a health stim has a unit cost of 600 scrip. It's 3000 for a 5 pac. Still a better deal to extract than to spend the scrip.

Umfafa
12-05-2013, 11:13 PM
I vote neigh in favor of horse armor.
No but really I vote nay because health regens slowly without a shield augment and the stims come in many forms not just health. I like the power stims and the damage spikes are fun too. Yea I like them both. It is borrowed straight from firefall but it works for me. If it makes the game too easy for you you are free to not use them but it took me a very long time for this game to seem easy to me and even now after 2000+ hours I can still get my *** handed to me if I do something stupid.
BTW a health stim has a unit cost of 600 scrip. It's 3000 for a 5 pac. Still a better deal to extract than to spend the scrip.

Sorry. I've played with you a couple of times (Umfafette is Umfafa's sister. Apparently, their father was a Viking of note, so they both carried his name).

But.....Um.

Yeah. Not sure I've seen you get your *** handed to you.

Arsenic_Touch
12-06-2013, 12:58 AM
In the history of bad ideas posted on this forum, congrats on hitting the top 5.

Bonehead
12-06-2013, 01:01 AM
In the history of bad ideas posted on this forum, congrats on hitting the top 5.

LOL. Root beer, meet keyboard.

Nefarious
12-06-2013, 11:35 AM
In the history of bad ideas posted on this forum, congrats on hitting the top 5.

I hope I'm number #1 then.

As if doing away with natural health regeneration would be such a bad thing if it were to happen considering all the things we are going to have to fill up our HP with.

Deunan
12-06-2013, 01:05 PM
...all the things we are going to have to fill up our HP with.With your idea all you'll have are healing stims and Syphon weapons. All the regeneration bonuses in the game are based on the character's base regeneration rate. Last time I checked 50% of 0 is still 0.

Red Mephisto
12-06-2013, 01:21 PM
I post to politely ask that you let this thread die.

Seriously, what's wrong with you? You voluntarily offer up nerf ideas?!

Just let it go. Drop the subject and we will all forget this ugliness ever happened.

Hahha, this is the same guy that posts glicthes, cheats, and PvP exploits....

why are you surprised???

Steel Fire
12-06-2013, 01:31 PM
I hope I'm number #1 then.

As if doing away with natural health regeneration would be such a bad thing if it were to happen considering all the things we are going to have to fill up our HP with.

Or they could not add the silly stims and spikes and just worth about keeping things fun and create scrip sinks around that goal. There's no need for Defiance to get all serious and economic and grindy. There's another game that's gone that direction, Firefall, and they've destroyed it by trying to make it all MMORPG, economy, crafting seriousness. They forgot about the fun though and are destroying the game. With these DLC 2 era changes I see Defiance turning toward that same path and it's a fiery dead end down that road.

Attain
12-06-2013, 03:00 PM
In the history of bad ideas posted on this forum, congrats on hitting the top 5.

This ^^^

As per the usual from what I have seen and read since coming to these forums Arsenic has hit the nail on the head. Terrible idea in my opinion.

Nefarious
12-06-2013, 05:04 PM
Hahha, this is the same guy that posts glicthes, cheats, and PvP exploits....

why are you surprised???


Yeah I post up glitches, exploits, and point out cheats. I do so because the ppl using and doing such things will never bring them to light themselves because they don't want anyone to know, they don't want it to be fixed. Or if its a unknown thing that's not used at all Ill point it out so it gets fixed before its a real problem or do so to point out another problem.

Anyway, with a raise of hands does anyone else agree to keep this game challenge free? Jeez. Whats the use of getting rewards if its not a challenge to earn them? Without the fun of challenge along with the fear of dying leaves us with the guarantee of always winning. I never do a Ark Fall and have to be aware of my surroundings, I just blast things repeatedly. Giant monsters and outnumbering hoards are no threat. Penalties of being beat are non existent. Im sure you all know the feeling. The game just becomes a thing of putting in the hours to earn 'dice roll' chances in being rewarded. That's the only real struggle, putting in more hours. And if that's going to be the case -- which it is -- I for one would like the hours I put in to be challenging and worth while.

Being 'Rambo' is fun when you pull it off and do it on your own, not when its giving to you.

Maybe, hopefully, when the game offers more events/expanded map that will break up the populace. The most fun Ive had in Defiance is when there are 20 or less Ark Hunters at the Bathhouse Volge Siege or Major Dark Matter Ark Fall. They became a thing where players actually started working together instead of an Army of individuals. But as far as I can see the events will always be swamped with players. Players with no fear of death. That's why I say things should be looked into when it comes to all these ways that buff our HP.

Mess7739
12-06-2013, 05:11 PM
Everyone plays for their own reasons whether its for fun, a challenging experience, or simply to complete pursuits/collect keys as quickly as possible with the least amount of resistance. I hear where you're coming from and maybe Trion will get their **** together and create a level difficulty mode or something but I don't see it happening.

Deunan
12-06-2013, 05:59 PM
Anyway, with a raise of hands does anyone else agree to keep this game challenge free? Jeez. Whats the use of getting rewards if its not a challenge to earn them?You're missing the point entirely. There are good ways of making the game more challenging and there are bad ways of making the game more challenging and pretty much everything you've suggested is bad because it negates a core concept in MMOs which is the ability for character builds and progression to substantively matter in the game and not to nerf them to near irrelevance for some of its players. This is true even for a shooter like Defiance where character progression and builds are more muted than they are in traditional MMORPG's.

On top of that your ideas aren't even well thought out. You talk about things like relying on regeneration bonuses from gear and perks that don't even work if there's no base regeneration for the player character. In actuality all your really advocating is complete reliance on stims, syphon effects, and extraction (which effectively renders all regeneration bonuses from gear worthless and makes entire generations of shields worthless - good luck getting the player population to support that idea).

The more sound approach doesn't seek to make the game more challenging by nerfing character builds and abilities, it makes it more challenging by making tougher content. That's always been the conventional way to go with MMO's or any game that has a focus on a character ability and weapon system that allows progression (Borderlands 2, while not an MMO, is a good example of this). This keeps the less skilled players happy because they can continue to enjoy the parts of the game they've been enjoying and also satisfies the better players who can move on to the tougher content. That's a good business model for game development. A business model that needlessly focuses on alienating one player demographic to satisfy the needs of another demographic on the other hand is a terrible one.

If you want make things that are generally supposed to be very relevant in an MMO irrelevant for you than you can already do so without impacting on anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Slap on a white gun with no nano effects, white grenade and white shield and pick the most useless perks you can think of combining to make the general game more challenging and save your really good builds for the competitive aspects of the game like Sieges to see if you can get the highest score. I really don't understand why players like you feel the need to impose your will on other players in the game instead of using a modicum of self control and free will to make the game more difficult for you on your own. People do this in single player games all the time where the potential for builds that are overpowered exist. They simply choose not to use those builds.


The most fun Ive had in Defiance is when there are 20 or less Ark Hunters at the Bathhouse Volge Siege or Major Dark Matter Ark Fall. They became a thing where players actually started working together instead of an Army of individuals. But as far as I can see the events will always be swamped with players. Players with no fear of death. That's why I say things should be looked into when it comes to all these ways that buff our HP.I thought you were playing the PC version now? San Francisco Sieges on PC NA are generally low in attendance, especially on weekdays. Forget about 20 or less, they're often a dozen or less. We also have a noticeable amount of new players in San Francisco who clearly don't understand Seige strategy as they ignore Troopers and/or bombers and try to go after the Viscera first, don't activate any turrets and have some...interesting...weapon loadouts. That tends to make things more challenging (not in terms of scoring but in terms of getting more waves done) as well since they add to the Volge count but don't contribute damage as effectively and efficiently.

GeneCo
12-06-2013, 06:14 PM
Had to post once to say that this is a ridiculous idea. Now I am going to ignore this thread so it dies like it should.

Nefarious
12-06-2013, 06:16 PM
You're missing the point entirely. There are good ways of making the game more challenging and there are bad ways of making the game more challenging and pretty much everything you've suggested is bad because it negates a core concept in MMOs which is the ability for character builds and progression to substantively matter in the game and not to nerf them to near irrelevance for some of its players. This is true even for a shooter like Defiance where character progression and builds are more muted than they are in traditional MMORPG's.

On top of that your ideas aren't even well thought out. You talk about things like relying on regeneration bonuses from gear and perks that don't even work if there's no base regeneration for the player character. In actuality all your really advocating is complete reliance on stims, syphon effects, and extraction (which effectively renders all regeneration bonuses from gear worthless and makes entire generations of shields worthless - good luck getting the player population to support that idea).

The more sound approach doesn't seek to make the game more challenging by nerfing character builds and abilities, it makes it more challenging by making tougher content. That's always been the conventional way to go with MMO's or any game that has a focus on a character ability and weapon system that allows progression (Borderlands 2, while not an MMO, is a good example of this). This keeps the less skilled players happy because they can continue to enjoy the parts of the game they've been enjoying and also satisfies the better players who can move on to the tougher content. That's a good business model for game development. A business model that needlessly focuses on alienating one player demographic to satisfy the needs of another demographic on the other hand is a terrible one.

If you want make things that are generally supposed to be very relevant in an MMO irrelevant for you than you can already do so without impacting on anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Slap on a white gun with no nano effects, white grenade and white shield and pick the most useless perks you can think of combining to make the general game more challenging and save your really good builds for the competitive aspects of the game like Sieges to see if you can get the highest score. I really don't understand why players like you feel the need to impose your will on other players in the game instead of using a modicum of self control and free will to make the game more difficult for you on your own. People do this in single player games all the time where the potential for builds that are overpowered exist. They simply choose not to use those builds.

I thought you were playing the PC version now? San Francisco Sieges on PC NA are generally low in attendance, especially on weekdays. Forget about 20 or less, they're often a dozen or less. We also have a noticeable amount of new players in San Francisco who clearly don't understand Seige strategy as they ignore Troopers and/or bombers and try to go after the Viscera first, don't activate any turrets and have some...interesting...weapon loadouts. That tends to make things more challenging (not in terms of scoring but in terms of getting more waves done) as well since they add to the Volge count but don't contribute damage as effectively and efficiently.

You are reading into it to much and making up more then what my original post was about.

Nefarious
12-06-2013, 06:20 PM
Had to post once to say that this is a ridiculous idea. Now I am going to ignore this thread so it dies like it should.

Yeah because its such a ridiculous idea even when so many other games have health packs/potions as a main means to fill up a players life bar. lol its insane!

And whoa! Wouldint you know it such things are being added to the game. But what will be the motive to use these new health items if players HP will fill up anyway? Or better yet why would a player want to do so when its cheaper to let yourself die and pay for the revive then it would to use pricey health stims?

Mess7739
12-06-2013, 06:59 PM
Yeah because its such a ridiculous idea even when so many other games have health packs/potions as a main means to fill up a players life bar. lol its insane!

And whoa! Wouldint you know it such things are being added to the game. But what will be the motive to use these new health items if players HP will fill up anyway? Or better yet why would a player want to do so when its cheaper to let yourself die and pay for the revive then it would to use pricey health stims?

Then why not treat Health like Ammo? We could have Health Stations at the fast travel areas or spreadout through levels and health item drops like Medicated Bandages or Super-Noodle Soup. *We have Overcharge, why not an ability that lets you take 30%, hell 60%less damage while active? Tell those cloaked shotties to **** off in PvP that way.

They want stim usage instead of just filling up the health bar, have them give health boosts max and/or regen wise, give tactical incentive.

I would love a 'challenging' version of this game but its challenging enough dealing with all the random ******** as is, Bulwarks teleporting around minor arkfalls, perks not working as intended, General Steve everywhere and the whole world pulls a Matrix and lags the **** out.

* Idk if that would even work balance wise in game just an idea.

cypheon
12-06-2013, 07:51 PM
I think that since stims (health potions) are making their way into the game that natural health regeneration we get should be cut. Health regeneration should be done through stims, shield bonuses, and the Regeneration perk.

Also take away the self healing ability of BMGs and have it only to be able to heal others.

i can see cutting in-combat health regen completely (keeping, of course, shield/perk regen), but the self heal on bmg's is the (second) reason to even have one equipped. (we all get a good laugh once in a while using it to zap a trillion skitterlings, after all)

but how often will stims drop? will they actually be a reliable method of in-combat recovery? what about boss fights where you don't get no fancy drops at all the entire fight, and thus, can't replenish stims?

DragonsWife
12-07-2013, 08:54 AM
Yeah because its such a ridiculous idea even when so many other games have health packs/potions as a main means to fill up a players life bar. lol its insane!

And whoa! Wouldint you know it such things are being added to the game. But what will be the motive to use these new health items if players HP will fill up anyway? Or better yet why would a player want to do so when its cheaper to let yourself die and pay for the revive then it would to use pricey health stims?

"Unskilled" player here. Yeah, I play because it's fun and I don't have a ton of hours to play, so I don't want a game that just makes me want to throw my controller at the TV.

And excuse me for asking, but don't these other games with health packs, etc, have dedicated healer roles? Up till now I've only played fantasy MMOs, and those all had dedicated healing rolls.

They also had a crafting system, where if you didn't have a ton of hours to make money, you could just make your potions.

And all this talk of scrip sinks is ridiculous. The players who have a ton of money will continue to have a ton of money, while those of us who don't will have even less. And even less incentive to play, because we have to grind to make money. At least if I go play Skyrim on my own making money in that is enjoyable. In this game it's just obnoxious.

crasher
12-07-2013, 10:33 AM
"Unskilled" player here. Yeah, I play because it's fun and I don't have a ton of hours to play, so I don't want a game that just makes me want to throw my controller at the TV.

And excuse me for asking, but don't these other games with health packs, etc, have dedicated healer roles? Up till now I've only played fantasy MMOs, and those all had dedicated healing rolls.

They also had a crafting system, where if you didn't have a ton of hours to make money, you could just make your potions.

And all this talk of scrip sinks is ridiculous. The players who have a ton of money will continue to have a ton of money, while those of us who don't will have even less. And even less incentive to play, because we have to grind to make money. At least if I go play Skyrim on my own making money in that is enjoyable. In this game it's just obnoxious.
Well, otoh, it IS why they make different games ... different.

If they were all the same, we wouldn't need more than one.

I play THIS one BECAUSE it's not like the other ones.

I'm not real keen on the people who play the other ones trying to make my game like the other ones they play.
Just sayin'....
Not trying to argue, or be narrow-minded or rude.