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View Full Version : Split PvE and PvP; Analysis, Critic, Improvement



Sdric
12-08-2013, 08:33 PM
Foreword:
Any kind of contructive feedback is welcome!
Also a Dahanese or Dev post would be great :p

TL;DR:
Fixed PvP kits would be easy to implement, allow the Devs to concentrate on major map bugs instead of weapon balancing and AFTER that weapon customizastion could be added step by step.
PvE players would be unharmed by PvP Balancing:
TL;DR;END.




The main post:


PvP is dead.

Bugs, equipment based power gaps and PvE orientated weapon balancing are the main reasons for this.

Weapon changes based on either PvE or PVP have caused a lot of displeasure throughout the community.
We're at a point were it's basically impossible to get a team for instanced PvP.
Something has to change.

The most logical solution would be to disarm the situation by splitting both, PvE and PvP, into individual modes.
Meaning that PvE and Shadow War use weapons earned through PvE - and instanced PvP gets a new treatment.

While I'd favor a solution like the Guild Wars 1* custimization, I'ld suggest a blunt amount of fixed PvP kits (Like in BF2).
Customization is great, however it's also much more difficult to implement.
Fixed kits have 3 major advantages:
1.) They are easy to implement
2.) They allow competitive play
3.) They can slowly be improved (more choices, etc.)


Kits would be chosen upon your spawn.

I will now present you how kits could work.
Note that from top to bottom those come with more customization options.
This could reflect a possible development path for improving and balancing gear and kits slowly.

1.) Directed, easy to implement:
Fixed weapon + Fixed Granade + Fixed Shield + Fixed Ego Ability +Fixed perks

2.) Limited, more work to implement
Offense pack: Weapon + Grenade; Choice of shield ; Ego pack: An Ego Ability with fitting perks

3.)Free fixed.
Weapons, grenades and shield can be chosen freely from a small selection for each category;
...
n.)...
You see were this is going.


After the initial implementation the Devs could take their time and focus on fixing map bugs before looking further into kits.
This might be the fasted way to reach a point of enjoyable PvP.


I also am convinced that this change would be able to revive PvP in Defiance and make it an overall more fun experience.
I expact to hear protest from well equipped players, however I'ld beg you to think about this suggestion.
In the long run it might be the right choice.


Sincerely
Sdric

In Guild Wars 1, there was a dropdown menu which allowed you to freely and costless combine PvP gear after unlocking the basic parts.

DanteYoda
12-08-2013, 09:06 PM
I'd give PvP a run if it was even and fair, as it is now not a hope in hell would i PvP.. I think Battlefield style kits would be a better PvP experience.

Sdric
12-09-2013, 04:40 AM
About 70 views, but only 1 response :/

I'ld really like to read more opinions on this by:
-PvE players: If those changes would make PvP more attractive
-PvP players: If we agree on the same problems
-PvP players: If the solution would be accepted /appreciated
-Devs: If they like the idea / if they would be able to implement it

inox2980
12-09-2013, 08:36 AM
About 70 views, but only 1 response :/

I'ld really like to read more opinions on this by:
-PvE players: If those changes would make PvP more attractive
-PvP players: If we agree on the same problems
-PvP players: If the solution would be accepted /appreciated
-Devs: If they like the idea / if they would be able to implement it

I'm not sure if this is such a cut and dry thing to change. I do both PvE and PvP and I think it would be nice to have a more balanced approach to PvP. As far as weapon kits go, I don't think that would work. Many PvP'ers spend a good amount of time with their weapon loadouts and perfecting them to work with specific perks. Taking away the customized weapons would damage the current PvP implementation and would alienate many PvP'ers.

What would solve some issues, in my opinion, is better weapon balancing (think rampant one-shotting with Surge Bolters), adding a rippling effect to cloak, similar to DM Snipers, and eliminating any damage reduction bugs/shield hackers. I'm also a strong supporter of having there be some sort of penalty for constant bunny hopping (aim, bloom, something.)

I think these combined changes would encourage more people to try PvP. Given time, I think most players could succeed in PvP once they get used to the maps, the PvP environment and also how each weapon works with their perks.

Sdric
12-09-2013, 08:48 AM
I agree that building your own set is fun.
Maybe some people remember me from a few month ago where everything was full of Cloak and shotguns - and nano glitches!
Yet, I managed it to spread fear being the only Bonfire-user on the whole EU west server.

However,
using PvE weapons for PvP does and will always lead to incredible imbalance.
At least when it is so difficult to get "perfect" weapon as it is now - and the bonuses being multipliers.

As mentioned in my start post - in the long run - those kits could be improved and allow more customization, step by step.
However - NOT changing the current system is no solution.
Try to join a PvP match and you know why.

There is no way to get PvP working without screwing all over PvP weapons.

spddy
12-09-2013, 09:13 AM
I think what should be added for pvp is to be able to summon it as to like an arkfall and be able to choose how many can join. that way when it is slow, their would be plenty to join.

Prothean
12-09-2013, 08:38 PM
I've been playing MMOs for a very long time - since week 1 of Everquest, and then later to include Tabula Rasa, WoW, EVE, Warhammer, RIFT, and SW:ToR. In every single MMO I've played, without exception, balancing PvE with PvP was impossible. One would invariably negatively affect the other with an endless cycle of nerfs, buffs, nerfs, buffs, and so on. No game studio to date that I'm aware of has ever done it successfully. MMOs that have focused on one aspect of gameplay mostly to the exclusion of the other (e.g. EVE is PvP centric, Tabula Rasa was PvE centric, etc.) have done a far better job of making that one aspect better. It stands to reason, in my long experience as a gamer, that a game can either do one or the other well, or do both poorly. I've seen it happen in every single MMO that has tried to include both PvE and PvP, and this one is certainly no exception.

In my opinion, the only way this game is ever going to get PvP back under control (i.e. make it fair and enjoyable so that more players are willing to participate in it) is if they completely separate it from the rest of the game. Give it a subset of rules, equipment, and abilities based on the larger game with little room for variance and completely exclusive. In this way, they can isolate balance issues (and exploits) without adversely affecting the rest of the game, while preventing new ones from getting introduced from the PvE side.

For example, you picked up a legendary Surge Bolter during an Arkfall? Congrats, but you won't be able to bring it into PvP. This would avoid the issue of it being completely overpowered in PvP which requires them to nerf it, and in turn makes it undesirable to use in PvE. It also avoids miserable players - PvP players won't be getting frustrated because they are getting one-shotted by someone across the map, and PvE players won't be getting frustrated because the 1 million Scrip they saved up and spent to get a legendary Surge Bolter of their very own won't get nerfed into oblivion. Likewise, you could earn specific and limited upgrades in PvP (similar to the Battlefield model), but that can only be used in PvP.

Unfortunately, given the track record of bad management and design decisions that have been made thus far, the Trion Defiance team seems to have a propensity for wasting what little resources they have left on the wrong issues (or things that aren't issues at all). I don't see them ever spending the time or resources on overhauling their PvP system, even if they had them to spend. That said, I consider PvP in this game to be gangrenous at this point. It's better to just amputate it than to allow it to infect and kill the rest of the game. They have so few players left now, and most of them avoid PvP like the plague and solely play on the PvE side of the game. You only have to queue up for a PvP match during primetime to see how dead PvP is presently. And a lot of that had to do with unaddressed exploits/cheating, slow design reactions, poor QA, and eventual over-tuning (read as, nerfing with a nuke) in a futile attempt to balance PvP. Unless they are willing to commit to transplant surgery and completely replace the current PvP system, PvP will progressively fester and spoil the rest of the game as they continue to waste resources on treating a dead limb.

Atticus Batman
12-10-2013, 01:45 AM
Am I the only one reminded of Star Wars: Battlefront, when set kits are mentioned? Either way something does need to be done, to seperate PvP balances from PvE balances and vice versa.

Zewy
12-10-2013, 04:39 AM
When I played "The Secret World" you can chose the classes healer, tank or dps. and then you get genric gear so all have the same chance and it is more about skill then gear. Battlefield system wold work too. But bring your own gear in a MMO killing less gear/perks players is't balanced at all.

BJWyler
12-10-2013, 05:18 AM
I'm not sure if this is such a cut and dry thing to change. I do both PvE and PvP and I think it would be nice to have a more balanced approach to PvP. As far as weapon kits go, I don't think that would work. Many PvP'ers spend a good amount of time with their weapon loadouts and perfecting them to work with specific perks. Taking away the customized weapons would damage the current PvP implementation and would alienate many PvP'ers.

What would solve some issues, in my opinion, is better weapon balancing (think rampant one-shotting with Surge Bolters), adding a rippling effect to cloak, similar to DM Snipers, and eliminating any damage reduction bugs/shield hackers. I'm also a strong supporter of having there be some sort of penalty for constant bunny hopping (aim, bloom, something.)

I think these combined changes would encourage more people to try PvP. Given time, I think most players could succeed in PvP once they get used to the maps, the PvP environment and also how each weapon works with their perks.

I would have to agree with most of this here. For the OP to say that it would be easy to implement the changes they propose is a bit disingenuous - we really don't know how easy or hard it would be for Trion to implement a whole new system for PvP. Let's also remember in GW1, they don't have specific "kits" but made skills act differently between PvE and PvP, so to use GW1 as an example doesn't really work here. Even GW1's codex arena, which tries to mimic what the OP proposed was/is not without its issues because of it.

Balance in PvP is a myth - especially if a game wants to give players a choice in customizing their character. The only way PvP can be truly balanced is to have one single Cookie Cutter build and let player skill with that build determine the outcome. Unfortunately, CC builds tend to make whatever forum they are used in very boring and tedious, and thus ends up doing the opposite of what is intended.

Sdric
12-10-2013, 08:40 AM
Thanks for your feedback :)

I see we all agree on my two main points:
1.) Splitting PvE and PvP would be a good step
2.) PvP is in urgent need of a rebalance

I should explain why I suggested kits:
-Kits can easily be balanced towards each other
-Kits can be added easily (2 weapons, 1 shield, 1grenade, 10 perks, 1 Ego ability) //
-Those fixed components can be switched to variables (meaning you now can select one of several shields)

Overall this SHOULD lead to quick and solid results.
IN THEORY it would be much less work than trying to tweak all weapons etc. towards each other.

ironcladtrash
12-10-2013, 10:02 AM
Thanks for your feedback :)

I see we all agree on my two main points:
1.) Splitting PvE and PvP would be a good step
2.) PvP is in urgent need of a rebalance



Actually looks like a couple of people disagreed with splitting PVE and PVP. I do too. This topic seems to be another one that gets brought up all the time. The only reason PVP is attractive in this game is because of all the perks, weapons, and ego powers else it would be a very generic shooter. They do need to balance some weapons and fix the bugs, and exploits though. Weapon balancing shouldn't be an issue. If it's OP in PVP it more than likely is in PVE too. PVP showcases the problem more clearly.

I believe if it were to change only a few more people would play PVP just to check out they changes and then realize they still hate it and go back to PVE. Then the only thing you accomplished is nerfing all of PVP.

The bigger issue is the game population overall is down. In games like this PVP is the minority of the population. They need to get more people back into game overall. The more people that play PVE the more people that would try PVP. With the constant bad decisions and refusal to acknowledge problems they created the situation we are in now with the mass exodus of players. Hopefully the DLC today will back old and get some new players. I fear that is being optimistic, and anyone coming in for the DLC will probably leave in a few days.

kasaitenma
12-10-2013, 10:29 AM
i dont think premade kits for pvp would fit in this game. the game is about finding your ideal weeapons and kicking butt with em so there goes any fun of pvp. inaddition i personally dont think is the equipment that is the difference. i dont have many ojs and the ojs i got arent good for pvp anyway. im using purples and putting up solid k/d ratios. its that this game pvp is simply way harder that anything in pve and its steep learning curve between the two. also i personally think that erbody in this game cant aim for ****, atleast in the ps3. its y infectors r used instead of an ar, smg or lmg. if they just fixed cloak and made it shimmer like intended that would be so much better as well as doing something about the most overpowered weapon in the game, jumping, i think pvp would be better

Sdric
12-10-2013, 10:56 AM
@ironclad.

If balancing was that easy and weapons not that far off PvP would've been fixed a long while ago.
In fact balacing all weapons, or even just a few weapons with eevery possible mod combination is a close to impossible task.

You say strong PvP and PvE weapons would be the same, well let's look at shotguns.
Before the nerfs.
They were completely fine in PvE, since most often you'ld face to many enemies that restealthing wasn't easy - or the enemies even could tank half a magazine!
In PvP however they tended to 1HKO enemies even at further ranges.

Or take the Northstar Flare - as an opposite example.
It was nerfed (killed) since it critted everything to death within PvE, whereas in PvP it was close to impossible to even score a hit with this due to it's low projectile speed and ballistic flying curve.

The whole section of Infectors used to DOMINATE PvP, while being BARELY viable in PvE.

The list goes on.
What I'm saying is:
I disagree - there is a HUGE difference in power between PvE and PvP.