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Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 04:56 AM
An open letter to Trion:

This is not your average "I'm sick of the bugs" thread, in fact, I'm not worried about bugs at this point. This is also not a QQ thread, as while I love Defiance, if Trion seeks not to heed my advice, I can play elsewhere without issue. This is also not a troll thread -- while what I'm about to write is brutally honest, take note that I will offer up logical suggestions that will both be cost effective and well-thought out. I will attempt to keep my critiques as constructive as possible.

What I am worried about is the players base and what the population has dwindled down to. I know there are on official numbers and only you guys possess these records, but it doesn't take a statistical genius to see that there are considerably less folks online than there were three months ago. I am full aware that the series is in-between seasons, however the TV Show doesn't need a game to garner an audience, and nor should this game need the show to garner an audience. I fear this dependence on the TV Show, if not addressed could be a crippling issue to leave as is.

I'm going to infer a few things as well as use logic a bit generously to get right down to the problems behind population. These issues have either been felt by myself, brought up by friends (even those that don't play any more that I constantly nag to play again), and family that plays off and on (the wife).

CONTENT
Nearly every complaint I see in the forums, or hear from a friend, or read from a clan-mate seems directly or indirectly centered around the lack of content in the game. The content in the game is very weak -- I'm not going to sugar-coat that -- yet content is also the most critical and signature aspect of any MMO on the market. So lets examine for a moment how content is so crucial to Defiance.

When a player joins a MMO, the one thing they look at is your signature quest-line. It is cut-'n-dry, if you can't give them something to call an achievement at the end (such as a huge time or skill investment) and be incremental at that, continuously pandering the grind is not something that is desirable. People have more fun when there are tons of people online to help them out and to create impromptu pugs than having to pay over 1K script to extract multiple times from an arkfall.

So now we have an out-of-control chain reaction where the lack of players causes burnout, content causes people to become less interested, the ease of content doesn't achieve any stigma of achievement, and the sheer speed one can zoom through the content means those people we do snag into the game are generally out as soon as they beat the boss at the end. This runs full circle until the last player logs in.

This situation is dire I do believe yet it is so easily fixed. What I'm about to say will likely get me a few stalkers and a few bricks thrown through my window, but I'm going to say it: Artificial Time Syncs. Loading a few quests in the main quest line that require a player to sit at an area for a while killing numbered amounts of mobs (where it is tracked and kept so they can log out and back in and finish) will create a time sync that is not super imposing on the player. These types of quests should be all around as well. They should require a player to capture a position and over a period of hours to kill and defend the area.

I know this sounds a lot like contracts, and honestly it is very similar, but a required part of the quest line. With these syncs in place you can virtually multiply the content more than ten-fold. The problem comes in a point where the devs can't go nuts. For every one of these types of quests, there must be intermissions and times where the player doesn't feel he's doing the same rinse-and-repeat quest (like the side-quests currently are).

This problem can also be mitigated slightly by leveling mobs -- mobs around the San-Fran area should one-shot-on-sight players that "go-to-friend" at level 2 ego. Likewise, a ego rated 200 character should also stand a snow-balls chance in hell in that area as well. This will encourage players to grab more ego instead of barreling *** through the quest-line. This will encourage the players to additionally and crucially stop the quest progression and seek ego points to continue their progression. This could add another ten-fold to the game's content.

These two items I see will greatly benefit the content of the game without adding ANY new content while making the content seem 100 times longer. Players here now may not like this idea too much, and new players may not like that idea too much -- but once they begin playing and see the challenges and achievements of those before them, the game becomes more addicting to play.

ARKFALLS
I'm aware that this new DLC will allow players to somewhat "raid" Arkfalls indoors now, so I'm going to skip this part until I evaluate the new DLC.

WEAPONS AND GEAR
While this game has an incredible array of weapons it is lacking in gear and armor. I understand there is a range of appearance armors, however consideration needs to be made for adding a new slot to the character to give them access to equip armor that will mitigate 1-2% damage and even give additional perk slots and so-on. I can't imagine that 1-2% damage mitigation and one extra perk could be even close to OP or game breaking, but I can see how that folks may get the idea that they can tailor their character exactly the way they want.

Weapons are also, while in great variety, not that great. There is no holy grail of weapons to chase after that is so awesome (by a fraction) that it has its own name. Even legendary weapons seem to be lesser than that of green weapons after a few hundred ego. All legendary weapons should level up with the character, because the awful chance of ever having the pleasure of seeing one (without pay-to-win buffs), is so low, that after 3 months of playing, a player could go the entire time without ever being awarded one -- so they should be very special.

These are items that need to be seriously considered to allow players to feel as if their character isn't a pre-molded mechanic.

REAL DLC
In accordance with industry standard, when a company advertises they are releasing DLC for $10.00, there are certain expectations of that DLC:


It will grant the player another 5-10 hours of play-time
It will grant new features that will dazzle and entertain
It will give new areas to explore and more loot to grab


As it stands, only the ladder has been achieved thus far. No DLC, (unless the DLC released today does it) to date has given us more than an hour of play time, nor have they come with the features one would come to expect from the industry.

I personally feel insulted for buying the season pass to see such content so half-baked that even a turret based vehicle didn't come with the turret working. This, I can only interpret as a huge blundering fumble that needs to be recognized as such and fixed. But that's not the point -- the point is there are many other half-baked items in this game that seems to have just been pushed out at the last minute to satisfy the basic legal requirements to honor "5 DLC". The point is, you may not be a criminal for meeting this basic requirement, but a con you can still be.

DELIVER ON YOUR PROMISES
Many players are under the impression that promise after promise has been broken -- and that impression would be somewhat correct. While you may have never made any direct claims, many indirect claims are nonetheless broken. Just an example -- when you started advertising the season pass, this implied that players would receive 5 DLC's during the first season of Defiance.

Players went the entire season before ever seeing a DLC. This kind of insidious contempt for the players cannot go without apology and yet Trion has made none to-date. There are many other promises, some direct that was never kept such as motorcycles and getting turrets working in the over-world vehicles.

Until you can deliver a solid promise, no advice I can give will ever work -- so every thing that I've covered thus far is utterly dependent upon Trion keeping its commitments and promises to their players in a punctual manner.

SUMMERY
In short, there is a wide array of things that would help this game, much of it wouldn't even scratch a modest budget or a modest team of developers. But the question becomes why hasn't it been done already? If the game is dying or close to such a point where development is near zero, be honest with us, let us know. The worst and most despicable thing you can do is lead on our audience into thinking that there will be season after season of this game to suddenly tell them "Nope! Sorry, that's all, server is shutting down!" just to cram in a few more bucks.

BJWyler
12-10-2013, 06:01 AM
Very well stated and I applaud your efforts, including the point about heeding your advice affecting your own decision to play (or not to play), instead of the usual blanket statement of “everyone”.

So let’s dig into it:


CONTENT
… continuously pandering the grind is not something that is desirable.

This situation is dire I do believe yet it is so easily fixed. What I'm about to say will likely get me a few stalkers and a few bricks thrown through my window, but I'm going to say it: Artificial Time Syncs. Loading a few quests in the main quest line that require a player to sit at an area for a while killing numbered amounts of mobs (where it is tracked and kept so they can log out and back in and finish) will create a time sync that is not super imposing on the player. These types of quests should be all around as well. They should require a player to capture a position and over a period of hours to kill and defend the area.

I know this sounds a lot like contracts, and honestly it is very similar, but a required part of the quest line. With these syncs in place you can virtually multiply the content more than ten-fold. The problem comes in a point where the devs can't go nuts. For every one of these types of quests, there must be intermissions and times where the player doesn't feel he's doing the same rinse-and-repeat quest (like the side-quests currently are).
Artificial Timesinks are one of the very definitions of grind. The example you give here is one of the premier examples of mind-numbing repetitive boredom – even with breaks in between. Many people simply do not have that kind of time to put into a game – either in a single sitting, or overall just to feel like they are doing the same thing over and over again just to try to advance to the next stage of their mission progress. There is a reason why the game industry is becoming more “casual”. It’s because those of us who were there when it was born and helped form the industry have realized that the playstyle of the olden days no longer befits us as players. I did the hardcore grind for the first half of my 40+ years of life, and have no desire to bring those days back. A quick trip back here and there on one of my aging systems is more than enough.



This problem can also be mitigated slightly by leveling mobs -- mobs around the San-Fran area should one-shot-on-sight players that "go-to-friend" at level 2 ego. Likewise, a ego rated 200 character should also stand a snow-balls chance in hell in that area as well. This will encourage players to grab more ego instead of barreling *** through the quest-line. This will encourage the players to additionally and crucially stop the quest progression and seek ego points to continue their progression. This could add another ten-fold to the game's content.
But you are not adding more content, simply artificially gating the content there is. Historically, the gaming community has disliked artificial gating of content. The joy that is Defiance is that you CAN go anywhere (with the one exception of not being able to get past the Monolith until you complete the relevant main mission – the friend porting being the exception), and do anything that your skill allows you to do.

I, for one, appreciate the friend porting workaround immensely. It means that a lower EGO friend can still join me in SF to do content with me when we are on-line together, instead of being forced to stay on the mainland. Dark Matter is already designed to be harder than most of the mainland mobs, so it makes it all the more fun when we group up together and adds to the challenge of the area.



These two items I see will greatly benefit the content of the game without adding ANY new content while making the content seem 100 times longer. Players here now may not like this idea too much, and new players may not like that idea too much -- but once they begin playing and see the challenges and achievements of those before them, the game becomes more addicting to play.
There’s a reason that players won’t like it – for the reasons stated above. It is simply adding grind where no grind is required, and no longer desired by the gaming community as a whole (generally speaking). The good thing about Defiance is that you can still make the content seem 100 times longer by re-doing the repeatable content (Emergencies, Conflicts, Arkfalls, Co-ops, PvP) to your heart’s content. The only difference between what you propose and what is in game now is that the current implementation puts the power to do so in the hands of the player. The gaming community (generally) has always desired to have that power in their hands and not be dictated to them by the devs.



WEAPONS AND GEAR
While this game has an incredible array of weapons it is lacking in gear and armor. I understand there is a range of appearance armors, however consideration needs to be made for adding a new slot to the character to give them access to equip armor that will mitigate 1-2% damage and even give additional perk slots and so-on. I can't imagine that 1-2% damage mitigation and one extra perk could be even close to OP or game breaking, but I can see how that folks may get the idea that they can tailor their character exactly the way they want.

Weapons are also, while in great variety, not that great. There is no holy grail of weapons to chase after that is so awesome (by a fraction) that it has its own name. Even legendary weapons seem to be lesser than that of green weapons after a few hundred ego. All legendary weapons should level up with the character, because the awful chance of ever having the pleasure of seeing one (without pay-to-win buffs), is so low, that after 3 months of playing, a player could go the entire time without ever being awarded one -- so they should be very special.

These are items that need to be seriously considered to allow players to feel as if their character isn't a pre-molded mechanic.
And that’s the difference between Defiance and the typical MMO. Like GW2, Defiance breaks the mold a bit to remove the gear treadmill (read grind), and focuses on letting player skill be the deciding factor between success and failure instead of gear being that factor. I, for one, appreciate the fact that I do not have to hop on the gear treadmill when playing Defiance, and have noticed a considerable difference in skill from when I started playing up to now – and that’s using my favorite weapons nearly from start to finish (several of which are the common white items from the Ark Hunter rewards, and several others from the quest lines). Personally speaking, I have found Trion’s implementation of this system better than Arenanet’s. I did not enjoy GW2, but immensely enjoy Defiance.

I have never felt that my character was a pre-molded mechanic outside of the initial character creation, which is limited in comparison to a typical RPG game’s character design. The only thing I feel limited by is the number of loadout slots we currently have. With the number of perks and the selection of weapons we have to choose from, not to mention that our clothing is completely cosmetic, I think there is more than enough room for customization of our characters. And thanks to the new Proxy Memory adjustment coming with Arkbreaker, I no longer have to worry about looking at a ton of General Steve’s anymore.



REAL DLC
In accordance with industry standard, when a company advertises they are releasing DLC for $10.00, there are certain expectations of that DLC:


It will grant the player another 5-10 hours of play-time
It will grant new features that will dazzle and entertain
It will give new areas to explore and more loot to grab


As it stands, only the ladder has been achieved thus far. No DLC, (unless the DLC released today does it) to date has given us more than an hour of play time, nor have they come with the features one would come to expect from the industry.

I personally feel insulted for buying the season pass to see such content so half-baked that even a turret based vehicle didn't come with the turret working. This, I can only interpret as a huge blundering fumble that needs to be recognized as such and fixed. But that's not the point -- the point is there are many other half-baked items in this game that seems to have just been pushed out at the last minute to satisfy the basic legal requirements to honor "5 DLC". The point is, you may not be a criminal for meeting this basic requirement, but a con you can still be.
To each his own there. I am unaware of any industry standard that lists the things you do – and I have been a part of the community and have followed the industry in some form or another for 20+ years. What you list is simply a Player’s Possible Expectations. I have no expectations of what any game’s DLC is going to be other than what the developers decide to include in that DLC. I remember a time, not too long ago, when some DLC was nothing more than a set of armor ... for a mount.

Personally speaking, going by your list, both DLC 1 and DLC 2 have given me each of those three things:
I have played the Battle Arenas for much longer than 5-10 hours at this point, and continue to play them
Arkbreaker will certainly add several dozen hours of play time with the new Emergencies and Arkfall Interiors.

I have been entertained by the content provided by each DLC up to this point. The “story missions” of DLC 1 did not quite “dazzle” me, but DLC 2 certainly improved upon that aspect.

Both the Battle Arenas and the Arkfall interiors are new areas to be experienced and explored, and there certainly has been a good number of additional weapons to be had from both DLCs.



DELIVER ON YOUR PROMISES
Many players are under the impression that promise after promise has been broken -- and that impression would be somewhat correct. While you may have never made any direct claims, many indirect claims are nonetheless broken. Just an example -- when you started advertising the season pass, this implied that players would receive 5 DLC's during the first season of Defiance.

Players went the entire season before ever seeing a DLC. This kind of insidious contempt for the players cannot go without apology and yet Trion has made none to-date. There are many other promises, some direct that was never kept such as motorcycles and getting turrets working in the over-world vehicles.

Until you can deliver a solid promise, no advice I can give will ever work -- so every thing that I've covered thus far is utterly dependent upon Trion keeping its commitments and promises to their players in a punctual manner.
That’s just players not managing their expectations. Nothing was ever said about getting 5 DLCs during the first season of Defiance. I certainly never expected that when I purchased the SP. The only thing I expected was to get 5 DLCs within one year. We currently have 2 and they said they are on track to provide the other 3 before the start of Season Two. I would say that no claim of broken promises can be made until the premier episode of the second season airs.

And Trion did apologize about the Raptor confusion – again most of the confusion stemming from a hyped up dev post that really promised nothing other than what Trion hoped to bring into the game. I also never saw any promise that motorcycles would be included in the game. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that game development is fluid and that what may seem possible turns out to be impossible (or impractical) so changes must be made or entire ideas scrapped. Again, much of the controversy and “broken promises” come from players not being able to manage their own expectations and pretty much taking on the “Chicken Little” attitude where one small thing said must be taken as gospel.

FriendlyStranger
12-10-2013, 06:19 AM
Players went the entire season before ever seeing a DLC. This kind of insidious contempt for the players cannot go without apology and yet Trion has made none to-date. There are many other promises, some direct that was never kept such as motorcycles and getting turrets working in the over-world vehicles.

They in fact did have the turrets working on the rapter. Prior to the release of DLC 1 one of the developers had spawned one in and was messing around with it. There is video of it somewhere. I'm doubtful they'll put it back in the game, despite it being part of the dlc.

Atticus Batman
12-10-2013, 06:41 AM
Very well stated and I applaud your efforts, including the point about heeding your advice affecting your own decision to play (or not to play), instead of the usual blanket statement of “everyone”.

So let’s dig into it:

Artificial Timesinks are one of the very definitions of grind. The example you give here is one of the premier examples of mind-numbing repetitive boredom – even with breaks in between. Many people simply do not have that kind of time to put into a game – either in a single sitting, or overall just to feel like they are doing the same thing over and over again just to try to advance to the next stage of their mission progress. There is a reason why the game industry is becoming more “casual”. It’s because those of us who were there when it was born and helped form the industry have realized that the playstyle of the olden days no longer befits us as players. I did the hardcore grind for the first half of my 40+ years of life, and have no desire to bring those days back. A quick trip back here and there on one of my aging systems is more than enough.


But you are not adding more content, simply artificially gating the content there is. Historically, the gaming community has disliked artificial gating of content. The joy that is Defiance is that you CAN go anywhere (with the one exception of not being able to get past the Monolith until you complete the relevant main mission – the friend porting being the exception), and do anything that your skill allows you to do.

I, for one, appreciate the friend porting workaround immensely. It means that a lower EGO friend can still join me in SF to do content with me when we are on-line together, instead of being forced to stay on the mainland. Dark Matter is already designed to be harder than most of the mainland mobs, so it makes it all the more fun when we group up together and adds to the challenge of the area.


There’s a reason that players won’t like it – for the reasons stated above. It is simply adding grind where no grind is required, and no longer desired by the gaming community as a whole (generally speaking). The good thing about Defiance is that you can still make the content seem 100 times longer by re-doing the repeatable content (Emergencies, Conflicts, Arkfalls, Co-ops, PvP) to your heart’s content. The only difference between what you propose and what is in game now is that the current implementation puts the power to do so in the hands of the player. The gaming community (generally) has always desired to have that power in their hands and not be dictated to them by the devs.


And that’s the difference between Defiance and the typical MMO. Like GW2, Defiance breaks the mold a bit to remove the gear treadmill (read grind), and focuses on letting player skill be the deciding factor between success and failure instead of gear being that factor. I, for one, appreciate the fact that I do not have to hop on the gear treadmill when playing Defiance, and have noticed a considerable difference in skill from when I started playing up to now – and that’s using my favorite weapons nearly from start to finish (several of which are the common white items from the Ark Hunter rewards, and several others from the quest lines). Personally speaking, I have found Trion’s implementation of this system better than Arenanet’s. I did not enjoy GW2, but immensely enjoy Defiance.

I have never felt that my character was a pre-molded mechanic outside of the initial character creation, which is limited in comparison to a typical RPG game’s character design. The only thing I feel limited by is the number of loadout slots we currently have. With the number of perks and the selection of weapons we have to choose from, not to mention that our clothing is completely cosmetic, I think there is more than enough room for customization of our characters. And thanks to the new Proxy Memory adjustment coming with Arkbreaker, I no longer have to worry about looking at a ton of General Steve’s anymore.


To each his own there. I am unaware of any industry standard that lists the things you do – and I have been a part of the community and have followed the industry in some form or another for 20+ years. What you list is simply a Player’s Possible Expectations. I have no expectations of what any game’s DLC is going to be other than what the developers decide to include in that DLC. I remember a time, not too long ago, when some DLC was nothing more than a set of armor ... for a mount.

Personally speaking, going by your list, both DLC 1 and DLC 2 have given me each of those three things:
I have played the Battle Arenas for much longer than 5-10 hours at this point, and continue to play them
Arkbreaker will certainly add several dozen hours of play time with the new Emergencies and Arkfall Interiors.

I have been entertained by the content provided by each DLC up to this point. The “story missions” of DLC 1 did not quite “dazzle” me, but DLC 2 certainly improved upon that aspect.

Both the Battle Arenas and the Arkfall interiors are new areas to be experienced and explored, and there certainly has been a good number of additional weapons to be had from both DLCs.


That’s just players not managing their expectations. Nothing was ever said about getting 5 DLCs during the first season of Defiance. I certainly never expected that when I purchased the SP. The only thing I expected was to get 5 DLCs within one year. We currently have 2 and they said they are on track to provide the other 3 before the start of Season Two. I would say that no claim of broken promises can be made until the premier episode of the second season airs.

And Trion did apologize about the Raptor confusion – again most of the confusion stemming from a hyped up dev post that really promised nothing other than what Trion hoped to bring into the game. I also never saw any promise that motorcycles would be included in the game. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that game development is fluid and that what may seem possible turns out to be impossible (or impractical) so changes must be made or entire ideas scrapped. Again, much of the controversy and “broken promises” come from players not being able to manage their own expectations and pretty much taking on the “Chicken Little” attitude where one small thing said must be taken as gospel.

Darn Bj. You didn`t leave much for me to say, except that you can keep the horse armor. Most of the long~-term forumites know I`d love some new types of nades and melee/ranged weapons and have suggested some, but this is Trion`s game and creative endevour, not ours, so they can and will legally do what they want with it.

Guess I did figure out something to say afterall.

Market
12-10-2013, 07:59 AM
This is the best conversation I've read on these forums in quite some time.

Mike, I agree with your overall point. The only thing I sort of disagree with is the weapon/gear section. The only reason I see it differently is due to other games I've played with that have that gear that is "better" than all the rest end up having every player in the game running around with one setup. Once people hit that point, the drive to continue can dwindle because you already have that top-tier gear. As for armor that gives you a certain bonus, it usually ends up the same way. Everyone will be running around with that specific suit and we'll have "general steve" all over again.

Now, to argue with myself here, the one thing they could do with this idea is create... oh, how to put this... an undershirt of sorts. The trouble with things like this is a balance to make more than one item usable by a variety of people. To equate my thoughts on this, I'll point out how unbalanced all the nano's would be if they decided to create Syphon converters for our weapons. I doubt very many people would be using anything but Syphon on all their gear. If they were to add some sort of advantage to our armor, I'd like to see it varied enough to make different load outs worthwhile, while not effecting our actual appearance. Lest we see the same suit on everyone and *not* have it related to a lower server load.

I agree with just about everything else you had to say, Mike, and I applaud you on your delivery. I second BJ's very first paragraph in his reply. It's quite refreshing knowing that there are other people on these forums that can bring about a well typed statement, devoid of hatred, and give some actual substance to their opinions beyond something like "this game isn't perfect *for me*, so it sucks and Trion should rot". Good on you, sir.

BJ, I also agree heartily with your reply. Very well said.

Again, it's great to see that there are still some realists here on these forums. What I mean by that is the few of us here that see the game for what it is, understand that Trion dropped the ball on a number of occasions (and admits this), and have an abundance of keeping our commentary civil. Vitriol will never make the game better, nor will it get them listening.

What a way to start the day, guys. Keep up the level heads!! :)

Sdric
12-10-2013, 08:13 AM
It's not only the content, it's the difficulty.
Looking at other MMOs there usually is some frustratingly hard endgame content.
A Raid, or dungeon which takes the whole community several weeks or evem month to figure out a solid way to deal with it.
Defiance can be played with your eyes closed.
While the Volge are strong enemies, they're boring.
They are strong not because they are difficult to fight.
They are strong because the have exaggerated damage and health.

We need more enemies at Arkfalls (half of the time there isn't even anything to shoot at)
We need faster and "smoother" (more fluently moving)enemies.

BJWyler
12-10-2013, 12:16 PM
It's not only the content, it's the difficulty.
Looking at other MMOs there usually is some frustratingly hard endgame content.
A Raid, or dungeon which takes the whole community several weeks or evem month to figure out a solid way to deal with it.
Defiance can be played with your eyes closed.
While the Volge are strong enemies, they're boring.
They are strong not because they are difficult to fight.
They are strong because the have exaggerated damage and health.

We need more enemies at Arkfalls (half of the time there isn't even anything to shoot at)
We need faster and "smoother" (more fluently moving)enemies.

I tend to agree with that statement. The problem is not so much the difficulty, but with the scaling system. This kind of system is a boon to MMOs in that difficulty can be scaled up based on the number of players in an area. The problem we have now, is that the system as implemented does not go far enough in the high end of the spectrum, and thus we have things like Dark Matter Arkfalls where 90% of the Arkfall is just running around waiting for the Monolith to land again. Teak this system to do as you suggest - adding more enemies (and yes with higher health/shields), and trying to make them smarter (there's actually a whole discussion about AI and the actual fallbacks to smart AI, et al. in games out on the 'Webs), will do a lot to increase difficulty without severely handicapping the low-skill casual player.

Etaew
12-10-2013, 12:23 PM
It is rare to see nicely formatted posts which are well thought out. Unfortunately I stem from the branch of forum viewers who have difficulty reading long posts.

I didn't want to say TLDR, because I did read through it, I just didn't absorb it. Potential suggestions, a summary at the top of the post, with key bullet points and descriptive section headers should aid in readability and allow more targeted feedback.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 12:41 PM
YEA! HORSE ARMOR!
and for the record...
I can't play this game with my eyes closed.

zombiekitty
12-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Very, very, well worded and truthful. Awesome. Perhaps they'll take the time to read it, also.

crasher
12-10-2013, 12:54 PM
YEA! HORSE ARMOR!
and for the record...
I can't play this game with my eyes closed.
Me either.
But a lot of the game *is* better at night.

Scrapper finals, for example.

Enemies that hunted at night would be interesting, instead of enemies that are exactly the same while the ambient light happens to be lower.

samuelsinn
12-10-2013, 01:10 PM
ya the only thing in the hole list of stuff that was saggusted that i even remotly agreeed with wasthe armour part. we have what 10 to 20 armours that are all cosmetic and do nothing for us. i know for one i would love to see the heavy armour make it so you took less damage. or had a faster shield recharge or some such things. why give us the armour to begin with if it does nothing ?

but then agine. the likely hood of trion reading over all of this post and realy.. hmmm takeing the feed back and suggestions . might be low. just my thoughts on it.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 02:33 PM
Artificial Timesinks are one of the very definitions of grind. The example you give here is one of the premier examples of mind-numbing repetitive boredom – even with breaks in between. Many people simply do not have that kind of time to put into a game – either in a single sitting, or overall just to feel like they are doing the same thing over and over again just to try to advance to the next stage of their mission progress.

Indeed it is. I hope it was not sugar-coated in my statements at all. However all time syncs and "grinds" are relative. Most people wouldn't agree but there are many time syncs and "grinds" already put into the main story-line. "How much is too much" becomes the magic question, and that is a question, with a dire lack of content, the devs need to be asking and toeing that line.


But you are not adding more content, simply artificially gating the content there is. Historically, the gaming community has disliked artificial gating of content. The joy that is Defiance is that you CAN go anywhere (with the one exception of not being able to get past the Monolith until you complete the relevant main mission – the friend porting being the exception), and do anything that your skill allows you to do.

I, for one, appreciate the friend porting workaround immensely. It means that a lower EGO friend can still join me in SF to do content with me when we are on-line together, instead of being forced to stay on the mainland. Dark Matter is already designed to be harder than most of the mainland mobs, so it makes it all the more fun when we group up together and adds to the challenge of the area.

Again, I hope it wasn't sugar-coated and I also hope the point that these were mere band-aids for bullet wounds was crystal clear. My entire post runs under the inference that there is a thread-thin budget for the game based on the neglect Trion is showing the game and how lacking DLC is. However, it is not reasonable to have this expectation of the game when the content is so severely lacking. Would you like this friend to be able to join you in the "end-game" content immediately to have him/her play for 1-2 days and quit, or not have them join you in end-game content and possibly play the game for months with residual play-time from feeling the character they've built is a monumental achievement? Choosing between the two, I choose the ladder.


There’s a reason that players won’t like it – for the reasons stated above. It is simply adding grind where no grind is required, and no longer desired by the gaming community as a whole (generally speaking). The good thing about Defiance is that you can still make the content seem 100 times longer by re-doing the repeatable content (Emergencies, Conflicts, Arkfalls, Co-ops, PvP) to your heart’s content. The only difference between what you propose and what is in game now is that the current implementation puts the power to do so in the hands of the player. The gaming community (generally) has always desired to have that power in their hands and not be dictated to them by the devs.

Players have never liked it in any game and fight it at every corner, yet the games it is despised in the most have the highest subscriber numbers. In fact it can be argued that the larger the content in a game seems, the more players that will play and for longer, even if the content is treadmill. Don't believe for a second I'm also one that likes or enjoys this sort of content, but it is an observation I'm willing to be honest with.


And that’s the difference between Defiance and the typical MMO. Like GW2, Defiance breaks the mold a bit to remove the gear treadmill (read grind), and focuses on letting player skill be the deciding factor between success and failure instead of gear being that factor. I, for one, appreciate the fact that I do not have to hop on the gear treadmill when playing Defiance, and have noticed a considerable difference in skill from when I started playing up to now – and that’s using my favorite weapons nearly from start to finish (several of which are the common white items from the Ark Hunter rewards, and several others from the quest lines). Personally speaking, I have found Trion’s implementation of this system better than Arenanet’s. I did not enjoy GW2, but immensely enjoy Defiance.

Perhaps that is true, but in a game that is so heavily weapon focused, there should be 'golden weapons' made available that overachieving players can earn. Forgoing this idea to prevent Defiance from fitting the standard mold isn't necessarily a great thing.


I have never felt that my character was a pre-molded mechanic outside of the initial character creation, which is limited in comparison to a typical RPG game’s character design. The only thing I feel limited by is the number of loadout slots we currently have. With the number of perks and the selection of weapons we have to choose from, not to mention that our clothing is completely cosmetic, I think there is more than enough room for customization of our characters. And thanks to the new Proxy Memory adjustment coming with Arkbreaker, I no longer have to worry about looking at a ton of General Steve’s anymore.

This is actually a complaint I've seen though-out the forums. The complaints usually start with, "lack of customization" and tell you how the character seems confined to a very small mold.


To each his own there. I am unaware of any industry standard that lists the things you do – and I have been a part of the community and have followed the industry in some form or another for 20+ years. What you list is simply a Player’s Possible Expectations. I have no expectations of what any game’s DLC is going to be other than what the developers decide to include in that DLC. I remember a time, not too long ago, when some DLC was nothing more than a set of armor ... for a mount.

There is no text on the matter. STO, Skyrim, DnDO, Rift, just to name a few where the $10-$30 DLC expansions tout nearly twenty times what the DLC's for Defiance has thus far.


Personally speaking, going by your list, both DLC 1 and DLC 2 have given me each of those three things:
I have played the Battle Arenas for much longer than 5-10 hours at this point, and continue to play them
Arkbreaker will certainly add several dozen hours of play time with the new Emergencies and Arkfall Interiors.


Weren't you just chastising the idea of time syncs as a bad thing and something you didn't want to do? You also chastised the system of a cherished weapon and that players should "chase" these weapons. How come you have spent more than the basic hour in those arenas to call the expansion "complete" then?


I have been entertained by the content provided by each DLC up to this point. The “story missions” of DLC 1 did not quite “dazzle” me, but DLC 2 certainly improved upon that aspect.

Companies that successfully sale DLC do so on reputation and customer loyalty. The simple fact is, a publisher will not get the DLC sales they are likely seeking when their DLC track-record is less than hideous


Both the Battle Arenas and the Arkfall interiors are new areas to be experienced and explored, and there certainly has been a good number of additional weapons to be had from both DLCs.

I'm not sure I would consider 6 (can't remember the precise number) singular open-rooms you can lap in 40 seconds to be an area to explore. You zone in -- you've seen the room, now you can leave.


That’s just players not managing their expectations. Nothing was ever said about getting 5 DLCs during the first season of Defiance. I certainly never expected that when I purchased the SP. The only thing I expected was to get 5 DLCs within one year. We currently have 2 and they said they are on track to provide the other 3 before the start of Season Two. I would say that no claim of broken promises can be made until the premier episode of the second season airs.

Its actually very much implied. When Defiance came out, "Get the Season Pass for Season 1!" was all over the place. This heavily implied 5 DLC during season 1.


And Trion did apologize about the Raptor confusion – again most of the confusion stemming from a hyped up dev post that really promised nothing other than what Trion hoped to bring into the game. I also never saw any promise that motorcycles would be included in the game. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that game development is fluid and that what may seem possible turns out to be impossible (or impractical) so changes must be made or entire ideas scrapped. Again, much of the controversy and “broken promises” come from players not being able to manage their own expectations and pretty much taking on the “Chicken Little” attitude where one small thing said must be taken as gospel.

The hype was so much that devs were spawning them in-game to show off to players. Spawned them, crawled in the turrets and killed mobs. This is not confusion on our end. Everyone that saw this knew exactly what they saw -- there was no mistaking it.

As far as the motorcycles are concerned, it was promised (http://forums.defiance.com/archive/index.php/t-123789.html?) many times before the game went live.

rebtattoo
12-10-2013, 02:42 PM
Alright. Another "suggestion" thread. Albeit, very concise and constructive ideas. However...


this is Trion`s game and creative endevour, not ours, so they can and will legally do what they want with it.

Guess I did figure out something to say afterall. This.

Agree with everything BJ stated.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 02:54 PM
Alright. Another "suggestion" thread. Albeit, very concise and constructive ideas. However...

This.

Agree with everything BJ stated.

With what BJ stated, indeed they will and I too agree. But lets consider the companies before Trion that did the exact same thing:

1. SOE With SWG -- Star Wars pulled the license from SOE and awarded it to !! EA !! But what do you expect when a game is changed so drastically because the company decided it was just what it wanted to do.
2. Where SW is now, the same thing is happening again. Bioware/EA is taking their own liberties with the game and there are mass exoduses going on right now.
3. EQ2 -- some moron (like Smedly again) got the bright idea that he would do what he wanted and made it where brand new players can just level straight up to level 80 in the game and give them a special title of "heroic" with all the grand gear that comes with it. That game is now DOA.
4. Rift -- well its F2P now.

I could keep going but the point should be present and clear -- sure, they can do what they want, they can just go ahead and close the doors too while they're at it.

Atticus Batman
12-10-2013, 02:57 PM
As far as the motorcycles are concerned, it was promised (http://forums.defiance.com/archive/index.php/t-123789.html?) many times before the game went live.

All of those statements in your link are from August, Not April (when the game went live). None are promises and none are from Devs. Motorcycles were never promised. It was just wishful thinking on the community's part. The devs said, they like the idea, that is ALL they said. Just because somebody likes an idea, does NOT mean they will implement it.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 03:05 PM
Alright. Another "suggestion" thread. Albeit, very concise and constructive ideas. However...

This.

Agree with everything BJ stated.

Me too....

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 03:13 PM
All of those statements in your link are from August, Not April (when the game went live). None are promises and none are from Devs. Motorcycles were never promised. It was just wishful thinking on the community's part. The devs said, they like the idea, that is ALL they said. Just because somebody likes an idea, does NOT mean they will implement it.

You can likely note from the OP that the post is not around the forums any longer.


Mr LightningBolt
08-18-2013, 05:30 PM
We will push for motorcycles ! .. Hmm they might close this thread and send me a warning

In fact it seems pretty common to make too much reference to it gets threads locked and accounts banned. It was there, as many people are witness to and recognized by the CRM, well at least the questions to why they were not in the game yet was recognized:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?121680-Questions-you-guys-have-asked-the-team-answered-Part-One


9. Are there any plans or thoughts to make an ability to queue up for a "Hard Mode" Co-op map? Bosses more like Nim?

This is something that is already on our list of stuff we think is awesome, but I don’t have more concrete info and I’m not going to promise anything quite yet.

10. Are there plans for adding dirtbikes or other motorcycles to Defiance? They're in the show!

Hang tight on this one and refer to answer #9.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 03:15 PM
You can likely note from the OP that the post is not around the forums any longer. It was there, as many people are witness to and recognized by the CRM:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?121680-Questions-you-guys-have-asked-the-team-answered-Part-One

You are on drugs right?

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 03:21 PM
You are on drugs right?

How does referencing the community relations manager's post give you any inkling that one is under the influence? Is there something you're not telling us?

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 03:32 PM
How does referencing the community relations manager's post give you any inkling that one is under the influence? Is there something you're not telling us?

No where does it even remotely suggest in the crms post that motor cycles were in any way anything other than a good idea.
You using that post as some kind of evidence that they were somehow promised is an indicator that, perhaps, something could be acting to impair your ability do perceive reality accurately.

From Batman:
"All of those statements in your link are from August, Not April (when the game went live). None are promises and none are from Devs. Motorcycles were never promised. It was just wishful thinking on the community's part. The devs said, they like the idea, that is ALL they said. Just because somebody likes an idea, does NOT mean they will implement it."

This is the reality non impaired, sane people can agree on.

panthersnbraves
12-10-2013, 03:33 PM
Although my character is not ready to take on Volge single-handed, it did make it so I could help on Ark Falls, and get some XP/Contracts so I could level up. I had to learn how to zoom around stuff.

It helped me finish the campaign.

The only piece I haven't really "mastered" yet is the PvP, since I don't have enough friends playing that piece. I'll have to get some more players as friends. Hopefully the lack of titles on the new systems and a second season on TV will bring some people back.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 03:39 PM
No where does it even remotely suggest in the crms post that motor cycles were in any way anything other than a good idea.
You using that post as some kind of evidence that they were somehow promised is an indicator that, perhaps, something could be acting to impair your ability do perceive reality accurately.

From Batman:
"All of those statements in your link are from August, Not April (when the game went live). None are promises and none are from Devs. Motorcycles were never promised. It was just wishful thinking on the community's part. The devs said, they like the idea, that is ALL they said. Just because somebody likes an idea, does NOT mean they will implement it."

This is the reality non impaired, sane people can agree on.

Yeah, you didn't notice the sentence half-finished either did you? I have a bad habit of hitting ctl+enter (I'm a programmer).

I expanded on it. I stated pretty clearly that as the OP indicated, posts about it get purged rather quickly and threads that talk about it too much get locked. The CRM acknowledged the question that question being "when will motorcycles be in the game". It was said a few times on dev blogs and these forums which seems rather clean of mention now, that navigating terrain in your very own buggy or motorcycle would make this a nextgen MMO.

This promise was obviously not fulfilled and people who saw it, knows it wasn't fulfilled -- no need to argue with me on it, I saw it, others saw it, Trion knows what they did. The beef is between those who saw this promise and Trion. If you didn't see it, then there is no reason to interject except to toll a thread closed.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 03:41 PM
Yeah, you didn't notice the sentence half-finished either did you? I have a bad habit of hitting ctl+enter (I'm a programmer).

I expanded on it. I stated pretty clearly that as the OP indicated, posts about it get purged rather quickly and threads that talk about it too much get locked. The CRM acknowledged the question that question being "when will motorcycles be in the game". It was said a few times on dev blogs and these forums which seems rather clean of mention now, that navigating terrain in your very own buggy or motorcycle would make this a nextgen MMO.

Case closed

Amack
12-10-2013, 03:45 PM
and for the record...
I can't play this game with my eyes closed.


Me either.

buncha nooblars.

crasher
12-10-2013, 03:48 PM
nooblar. /10char
I'm thinking that what we have here is failure to communicate.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 03:48 PM
buncha nooblars.

that stung a bit

Amack
12-10-2013, 03:51 PM
Grin, it was just a joke boys. Isn't the game easy enough to close your eyes?

I'm guessing most people who will read this know neither of you would qualify for that title.

Nathan Foxbane
12-10-2013, 04:02 PM
Grin, it was just a joke boys. Isn't the game easy enough to close your eyes?

I'm guessing most people who will read this know neither of you would qualify for that title.

TwitchTV video of you playing Defiance with your eyes closed for an hour or you missed their joke.

Defiance is easy, but it is not that easy. It just has a rather gentle learning curve on many aspects.

Amack
12-10-2013, 04:11 PM
TwitchTV video of you playing Defiance with your eyes closed for an hour or you missed their joke.

Defiance is easy, but it is not that easy. It just has a rather gentle learning curve on many aspects.

This laptop would most definitely explode in my face if I attempted that.

Finally finished patching some other game.

Doubling the ETA, lol... Not one or two more hours, but doubling the ETA, what could possibly go that bad?

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 04:17 PM
This laptop would most definitely explode in my face if I attempted that.

Finally finished patching some other game.

Doubling the ETA, lol... Not one or two more hours, but doubling the ETA, what could possibly go that bad?

We wouldn't want to see you picking little bits of laptop out of your lips and cheeks and forehead, OR WOULD WE?

(okay for the record... we wouldn't)

DanteYoda
12-10-2013, 05:18 PM
One reason I love Defiance the game is its lack of Grind, I Can jump in play for a few hours and enjoy myself, i do not need to worry about hitting ridiculous walls every day because some one is better at the game than me..

That said i agree we do need more content as every mmo made does to continue to survive, i do not think this game is overly easy it has a learning curve and the quality of AI is pretty good compared to every other game I've played, I'll be honest here, i find certain parts hard as nails (Solo Bosses, Volge events etc) and i like that i also find parts nice and casual which i also like.

For me I'd love to see

More Coop maps added (even some solo if possible).
More Sieges (newer types, newer enemies) Decent into a Volge Hive? Defend an E-rep Outpost?
Variations on Arkfalls (DLC2 is a good start)
EGO systems additions
Weapons Overhauls and Additions
Shield Overhauls and Additions
More Side mission Chains that link story wise
Customizations in the Game like more Helmets and such, More Costumes and Vehicles in the Shop too.

On a difficulty note i believe the AI is fine as is, i believe they are easy because of the quantity being thrown at us is low, if there were more to deal with it would get progressively harder to survive in Sieges and Arkfalls, I also believe the AI pause in combat a lot, if those Pauses were shorter we as players would find it harder to survive.

On another note i feel Content should be secondary to the GUI overhauls, the game can be filled with new content and if players cannot chat and socialise they will still leave en mass.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 05:21 PM
(okay for the record... we wouldn't)

Utter lies, I saw you grabbing the popcorn while chanting, "Do it! Do it!".

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 05:23 PM
Utter lies, I saw you grabbing the popcorn while chanting, "Do it! Do it!".

Busted again!

Amack
12-10-2013, 05:25 PM
After an 8 hour wait for your favorite online game to come back... blowing up a laptop doesn't sound all that bad.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 05:28 PM
After an 8 hour wait for your favorite online game to come back... blowing up a laptop doesn't sound all that bad.

I'm all gitty thinking about this impromptu fireworks display :P

BJWyler
12-10-2013, 05:59 PM
Going to start with the shorter posts first:

With what BJ stated, indeed they will and I too agree. But lets consider the companies before Trion that did the exact same thing:

1. SOE With SWG -- Star Wars pulled the license from SOE and awarded it to !! EA !! But what do you expect when a game is changed so drastically because the company decided it was just what it wanted to do.
2. Where SW is now, the same thing is happening again. Bioware/EA is taking their own liberties with the game and there are mass exoduses going on right now.
3. EQ2 -- some moron (like Smedly again) got the bright idea that he would do what he wanted and made it where brand new players can just level straight up to level 80 in the game and give them a special title of "heroic" with all the grand gear that comes with it. That game is now DOA.
4. Rift -- well its F2P now.

I could keep going but the point should be present and clear -- sure, they can do what they want, they can just go ahead and close the doors too while they're at it.

1. Oversimplification. There are several reasons why SWG was shut down, not the least of which was the broken state of the game and the years of bleeding subs as a result. LucasArts provided EA with a license to use the IP only a couple of years after SWG launched - when SWTOR began development back in 2005/2006.
2. SWTOR had its own problems - not the least of which was the lack of PvP and endgame, which caused many players to leave within the first few months. However, the game has been turned around and has proven to be more profitable now than it ever has, and has had two years to mature.
3. Can't comment. Never had an interest in EQ2.
4. Every game released as a sub in the last few years has gone F2P or Freemium (FF the exception which required a reboot, and appears to already be stumbling slightly). Didn't you use Rift as an example of good DLC - it didn't appear to help them all that much in that case, either.


You can likely note from the OP that the post is not around the forums any longer.



In fact it seems pretty common to make too much reference to it gets threads locked and accounts banned. It was there, as many people are witness to and recognized by the CRM, well at least the questions to why they were not in the game yet was recognized:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?121680-Questions-you-guys-have-asked-the-team-answered-Part-One

Again, no promise was ever made to have motorcycles in game. In fact the dev responses you show quoted at the bottom of this post indicate that they were not promising anything.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 06:02 PM
Again, no promise was ever made to have motorcycles in game. In fact the dev responses you show quoted at the bottom of this post indicate that they were not promising anything.

Like I said on the whole reality/perception impairment thing, Case closed.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 06:13 PM
1. Oversimplification. There are several reasons why SWG was shut down, not the least of which was the broken state of the game and the years of bleeding subs as a result. LucasArts provided EA with a license to use the IP only a couple of years after SWG launched - when SWTOR began development back in 2005/2006.

That is simply not the case. SWG made a huge change to the game mechanics just a few months after release that sabotaged the game early on -- a change that SOE decided to make because they just wanted to. The art of inference here is very key.


2. SWTOR had its own problems - not the least of which was the lack of PvP and endgame, which caused many players to leave within the first few months. However, the game has been turned around and has proven to be more profitable now than it ever has, and has had two years to mature.

Umm, are you reading the post I made? I didn't say this, I made the point that these games were bought to their knees because the companies did what the companies wanted to do regardless of what the game needed or what the players wanted.


4. Every game released as a sub in the last few years has gone F2P or Freemium (FF the exception which required a reboot, and appears to already be stumbling slightly). Didn't you use Rift as an example of good DLC - it didn't appear to help them all that much in that case, either.

When did WOW go F2P? 7-8 years counts as a 'few', yes? Also, ESO is touting that it will be subscription based, and I'm sure it will be successful by sheer fan-base in that respect.

http://elderscrollsonline.info/news/free-to-play-or-subscription

Can Elder Scrolls Online be free to play?

Now this is a serious question. If we assume that TES MMORPG will be a huge and long term project the answer is “No”. Elder Scrolls Online will hardly use F2P model.


Again, no promise was ever made to have motorcycles in game. In fact the dev responses you show quoted at the bottom of this post indicate that they were not promising anything.

As I said, the promise was there -- hype, what ever you want to call it -- it was there. It has been deleted I'm sure because others that have been incessantly griping to Trion about it has had their threads locked, deleted, and their accounts banned or limited. Therein said, if you didn't read this promise, then obviously you shouldn't even concern yourself as that beef remains between Trion and the players that saw that promise and placed good faith in Trion to make it happen. Funny thing 'good faith' is: you see, once you are given good faith and you violate it, one is only left with bad faith -- just in case you are wondering where all the negativity is coming from. Trion knows, these players knows, again if you didn't read it, then just move along.

Bonehead
12-10-2013, 06:23 PM
The lone gunman on the grassy knoll knows who deleted those posts.

BJWyler
12-10-2013, 06:26 PM
That is simply not the case. SWG made a huge change to the game mechanics just a few months after release that sabotaged the game early on -- a change that SOE decided to make because they just wanted to. The art of inference here is very key.
Again, not entirely correct. The game was borked almost from the start. Not every decision they made was a good one (or was and just implemented badly). However, in the case of the CU, it was needed (depending on your PoV because combat was one of the borked mechanics).


Umm, are you reading the post I made? I didn't say this, I made the point that these games were bought to their knees because the companies did what the companies wanted to do regardless of what the game needed or what the players wanted.
That is the way game development works. However, every game company, including BW have also instituted changes and additions that players have wanted.


When did WOW go F2P?
I said last few years (which to me, is less than 8-9 years but more than 1-2 years). Regardless, they have the Free to 20 trial and rumors are they have considered complete F2P recently.


As I said, the promise was there -- hype, what ever you want to call it -- it was there. It has been deleted I'm sure because others that have been incessantly griping to Trion about it has had their threads locked, deleted, and their accounts banned or limited. Therein said, if you didn't read this promise, then obviously you shouldn't even concern yourself as that beef remains between Trion and the players that saw that promise and placed good faith in Trion to make it happen -- Trion knows, these players knows, again if you didn't read it, then just move along.

Hype is not a promise, otherwise every single piece of advertising would be in big trouble. Didn't read any promises because they did not exist - not one statement ever said "Yes we will have motorcycles in this game, we promise."


ya the only thing in the hole list of stuff that was saggusted that i even remotly agreeed with wasthe armour part. we have what 10 to 20 armours that are all cosmetic and do nothing for us. i know for one i would love to see the heavy armour make it so you took less damage. or had a faster shield recharge or some such things. why give us the armour to begin with if it does nothing ?

but then agine. the likely hood of trion reading over all of this post and realy.. hmmm takeing the feed back and suggestions . might be low. just my thoughts on it.

Sorry, but having purely cosmetic "armor" is one of the better things Trion implemented in this game. It allows me to wear whatever I want on my character without being forced to use "armor" that gives me better stats, whether I actually like the look of the armor or not, and thus look like everyone else in this game because they have to wear the same armor for the same reason and not because of the "General Steve" issue.

Seth Winternight
12-10-2013, 06:38 PM
BJWyler I wholeheartedly agree on the armour front: it makes a lot more sense to have cosmetic armour so people can customise their appearances without worrying about stat changes.

However I would like to offer an alternate suggestion, similar to what was mentioned in the OP: Have additional pieces that you can wear on top of the outfit that can provide a miniscule bonus to stats and can vary, from shoulder pads, to vests, to gloves/gauntlets, gun holster/webbing, etc. They could be small additions that won't change much of the appearance of said armours and can satisfy those gamers that would like a little stat bonus from armour pieces. Of course, this would require an outfit slot.

Mike Chone
12-10-2013, 06:42 PM
Again, not entirely correct. The game was borked almost from the start. Not every decision they made was a good one (or was and just implemented badly). However, in the case of the CU, it was needed (depending on your PoV because combat was one of the borked mechanics).

LOL, man, that borking almost from the start you're speaking of -- that was the change SOE made that borked it.


That is the way game development works. However, every game company, including BW have also instituted changes and additions that players have wanted.

SOE doesn't work that way -- granted BioWare is a bit more in contact with their clients (at least before EA declared themselves tyrrants over BW).


I said last few years (which to me, is less than 8-9 years but more than 1-2 years). Regardless, they have the Free to 20 trial and rumors are they have considered complete F2P recently.

Every MMO has had some sort of free trial -- this is not F2P. If you want to deal in what-if's then consider Elder Scrolls Online which already has a massive subscriber base while not even be released yet which has nearly guaranteed its 'subscribership' for more than 5 years into the future (link in my last post -- edited).


Hype is not a promise, otherwise every single piece of advertising would be in big trouble. Didn't read any promises because they did not exist - not one statement ever said "Yes we will have motorcycles in this game, we promise."

On the contrary, hype when done so by a Trion official is marketing which is advertising. If you don't believe this is a "promise" you need to read up on 'Bait and Switch (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Bait+and+Switch)'.


A deceptive sales technique that involves advertising a low-priced item to attract customers to a store, then persuading them to buy more expensive goods [DLC] by failing to have a sufficient supply of the advertised item on hand or by disparaging its quality.

This practice is illegal in many states under their Consumer Protection laws.

It is text-book. Is what Trion did illegal? Likely not. There is no store and it is digital goods. However the spirit of luring customers in on promises of quality (the bait) to then nickel-and-dime them for DLC to make up for a crappy game (the switch) meets this spirit in its entirety. In fact, if someone had enough buckaroos, they could likely take this to suit, and either settle with Trion or get a judgement in their favor, and if appealed to a state appellate court system, likely get that precedent set so that entire state will for ever more encompass digital goods under this law.


Sorry, but having purely cosmetic "armor" is one of the better things Trion implemented in this game. It allows me to wear whatever I want on my character without being forced to use "armor" that gives me better stats, whether I actually like the look of the armor or not, and thus look like everyone else in this game because they have to wear the same armor for the same reason and not because of the "General Steve" issue.

I'm not recommending that it be gotten rid of either. I merely recommend that there should be a slot to mitigate damage constantly.

Organlegger
12-10-2013, 06:47 PM
Well written Mike. I agree with you, and i'm one of the people that no longer play this game.

BJWyler
12-12-2013, 07:57 AM
BJWyler I wholeheartedly agree on the armour front: it makes a lot more sense to have cosmetic armour so people can customise their appearances without worrying about stat changes.

However I would like to offer an alternate suggestion, similar to what was mentioned in the OP: Have additional pieces that you can wear on top of the outfit that can provide a miniscule bonus to stats and can vary, from shoulder pads, to vests, to gloves/gauntlets, gun holster/webbing, etc. They could be small additions that won't change much of the appearance of said armours and can satisfy those gamers that would like a little stat bonus from armour pieces. Of course, this would require an outfit slot.

That is pretty much what the Shields are for.


Every MMO has had some sort of free trial -- this is not F2P. If you want to deal in what-if's then consider Elder Scrolls Online which already has a massive subscriber base while not even be released yet which has nearly guaranteed its 'subscribership' for more than 5 years into the future (link in my last post -- edited).
That remains to be seen. The same could have been said of SWTOR, but that failed miserably as a sub. At this point, I don't see much of that changing for ESO either. I think they can hold out a little bit longer than SWTOR, but foresee the same results sooner rather than later.




On the contrary, hype when done so by a Trion official is marketing which is advertising. If you don't believe this is a "promise" you need to read up on 'Bait and Switch (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Bait+and+Switch)'.



It is text-book. Is what Trion did illegal? Likely not. There is no store and it is digital goods. However the spirit of luring customers in on promises of quality (the bait) to then nickel-and-dime them for DLC to make up for a crappy game (the switch) meets this spirit in its entirety. In fact, if someone had enough buckaroos, they could likely take this to suit, and either settle with Trion or get a judgement in their favor, and if appealed to a state appellate court system, likely get that precedent set so that entire state will for ever more encompass digital goods under this law.

Unfortunately, Bait and Switch does not apply in the case of Defiance. Nothing here would qualify for any Bait and Switch tactics. Perhaps something would fall under the premise of a Lemon Law, but B&S is no where near anything here.

Mike Chone
12-12-2013, 08:03 AM
That is pretty much what the Shields are for.

Shields are there to provide you with a little protection until you find cover -- this is the main mechanical purpose thereof. The proposal of armor that provides constant protection (damage mitigation) would be great to ensure you cannot be one-shot by mobs at higher ego levels.

Sure there are perks that have some effect like this like cellular armor -- however this bonus does not stack with others like rear guard which is why an armor class is necessary to act as a base to stack with or multiply other bonuses.

Edit to edit:


That remains to be seen. The same could have been said of SWTOR, but that failed miserably as a sub. At this point, I don't see much of that changing for ESO either. I think they can hold out a little bit longer than SWTOR, but foresee the same results sooner rather than later.

Case in Point -- the post I replied to went in on hypotheticals -- what could be because the company mulled it over, my post did the same to portray the exact opposite.


Unfortunately, Bait and Switch does not apply in the case of Defiance. Nothing here would qualify for any Bait and Switch tactics. Perhaps something would fall under the premise of a Lemon Law, but B&S is no where near anything here.

I made this clear by stating that there is likely no law broken because it is a virtual product and no real storefront.

I said:


Is what Trion did illegal? Likely not. There is no store and it is digital goods. However the spirit of luring customers in on promises of quality (the bait) to then nickel-and-dime them for DLC to make up for a crappy game (the switch) meets this spirit in its entirety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_of_the_Laws (purely educational in understanding what I mean by "the spirit".

Question -- (I realize there is no way to word this without sounding overly condescending, so I apologize ahead of time) are you inept or have some deficiency at reading (understandable, many people do and I can tolerate this, and it could just be simple error, which I apologize for the harshness in trying to get to the bottom of it) or are you purposely trying to pretend I'm saying things I'm not by contorting my quotes out of context (which I won't tolerate)? I've noticed this to be a pattern with you in several posts and you started very early on by trying to state that I for fact stated that Trion made some solid post of promises which I directly said there was no direct promises made, only indirect:


Many players are under the impression that promise after promise has been broken -- and that impression would be somewhat correct. While you may have never made any direct claims, many indirect claims are nonetheless broken. Just an example -- when you started advertising the season pass, this implied that players would receive 5 DLC's during the first season of Defiance.

BJWyler
12-12-2013, 08:54 AM
All righty, getting back to the longer discussion at hand:


Indeed it is. I hope it was not sugar-coated in my statements at all. However all time syncs and "grinds" are relative. Most people wouldn't agree but there are many time syncs and "grinds" already put into the main story-line. "How much is too much" becomes the magic question, and that is a question, with a dire lack of content, the devs need to be asking and toeing that line.

Again, I hope it wasn't sugar-coated and I also hope the point that these were mere band-aids for bullet wounds was crystal clear. My entire post runs under the inference that there is a thread-thin budget for the game based on the neglect Trion is showing the game and how lacking DLC is. However, it is not reasonable to have this expectation of the game when the content is so severely lacking. Would you like this friend to be able to join you in the "end-game" content immediately to have him/her play for 1-2 days and quit, or not have them join you in end-game content and possibly play the game for months with residual play-time from feeling the character they've built is a monumental achievement? Choosing between the two, I choose the ladder.

Players have never liked it in any game and fight it at every corner, yet the games it is despised in the most have the highest subscriber numbers. In fact it can be argued that the larger the content in a game seems, the more players that will play and for longer, even if the content is treadmill. Don't believe for a second I'm also one that likes or enjoys this sort of content, but it is an observation I'm willing to be honest with.
Agreed that all things are relative, but we have seen the ongoing trend of games getting away from those artificial barriers and grind and putting in the optional ones. WoW was a big move in the casual direction, and I think games like Defiance, Rift, and GW1/GW2 are just further extensions of that. In the end, all grind and time sinks are relatively the same – the difference is in the perception of the person playing. When the grind/gate is forced upon the player (such as the design of Factions in Guild Wars 1), that is taken less favorably than the ones that are implemented that leaves the grind optional or places the choice to grind or not to grind in the hands of the player, and that which allow them to complete the content at their desired pace.

No amount of grind or gating will prevent people from speed rushing to “end game.” As such, game design should not take these types of players into consideration. Doing so would ruin the game for the “normal”crowd. From a personal standpoint, it could have been implemented that in order to progress through the storyline missions, one had to complete a certain number of major and minor arkfalls between pre-determined mission points. For me, I would find that unfavorable because then I am forced into playing content I may not feel like playing on any particular gameplay session. However, as it is implemented now, I have the option to play whatever I feel like playing when I log in. It is still the same content, but now I find it enjoyable because the choice of what I am doing in each session is my own, and I am not forced into content in order to progess during a session.



Perhaps that is true, but in a game that is so heavily weapon focused, there should be 'golden weapons' made available that overachieving players can earn. Forgoing this idea to prevent Defiance from fitting the standard mold isn't necessarily a great thing.

I don’t disagree with the “Carrot on a stick” notion. When I first started playing and finally got my first Legendary, I was quite underwhelmed by the result. I always thought that the colored tiers of gear should show some increase of power between identical weapons, without making them feel like I was gimped for not using them. Fortunately, the update to the weapons rolls system now brings that to bear slightly, so each higher tier of weapon will add to one’s power. The good thing is, you are not overly gimped for not using those weapons. That’s what I like about Defiance – I can use whatever kind and color of weapon I want and still let it come down to skill with said weapons for success or failure.

Does that appeal to everyone? Certainly not, but GW has shown that there is a market for removing the gear treadmill and Carrots, or at least making those things more cosmetic than powerful.


This is actually a complaint I've seen though-out the forums. The complaints usually start with, "lack of customization" and tell you how the character seems confined to a very small mold.
There will always be those arguments. I am an RPGer by heart and love a deep customization system that includes everything from initial character creation to “loadouts.” This is a personal preference type of thing here, and no system can satisfy anyone. However, knowing who I am at any rate, I haven’t felt that issue at all with Defiance. And that is coming from someone who wants their toon to be more unique than the most unique snowflake out there.



There is no text on the matter. STO, Skyrim, DnDO, Rift, just to name a few where the $10-$30 DLC expansions tout nearly twenty times what the DLC's for Defiance has thus far.
And that’s why it is too each their own. I make my ultimate judgments on a game by game basis. “Am I getting value for the money I am spending on this game?” What STO does, what WoW does, What Rift does, what SWTOR does, what any other company does for their game has no bearing on my assessment of value for all the other games that I play, no more than one Retailer that offers a 5 for 1 deal when another offers a 3 for 1 deal. My assessment comes from the deals individually and not comparatively, even if the deals involve the same product – because ultimately, the overall value comes from more than just the deal and the product.

SWTOR, WoW, and GW2 all have more “content” than Defiance. GW2 releases more free content at a quicker pace than the other two games. SWTOR is the only game I am playing of those three, even though WoW might have more overall content for the same price of subscription, and GW2’s content is more dynamic than either and costs nothing additional per month. WoW might have the best value for the money content-wise, but I am not just playing a game just for sheer amount of content, but for an overall experience. Therefore, the games I am playing offer me sufficient amount of value and enjoyment for my money.

I don’t care how much content the other games may release or what price they charge. If I am playing those games, I assess the value based on the package for that game. Right now, I feel like the current DLC in Defiance is enough of a value for me to spend the money on. Would having crapton of more stuff in the DLC for the same price be desirable and awesome? Of course it would, but just because it isn’t there and other games do whatever they want to do doesn’t mean I am not going to buy it and enjoy it here if I still think it’s worth the money.




Weren't you just chastising the idea of time syncs as a bad thing and something you didn't want to do? You also chastised the system of a cherished weapon and that players should "chase" these weapons. How come you have spent more than the basic hour in those arenas to call the expansion "complete" then?
The difference is what I mentioned above – it’s where the choice lies. If I am forced to do it in order to progress, then yes it is a bad thing. If the choice of how and when I want to do it, then it’s a good thing. Take Daiblo III for instance (I don’t play it because of the on-line thing, but anyway) – let’s say there are 5 different difficulty levels, but in order to unlock the higher levels, you need to complete the base game first. To me that is bad. Why should I have to grind through the first tiers of the base game and levels if all I want to do is play the Nightmare Mode? Let’s say that the campaign takes 20 hours to complete. By gating the levels it would take me 100 hours to “complete” everything. However, 80 of those hours wouldn’t be as enjoyable as the final 20. I would much rather a game allow me to enjoy the 20 hours I want rather than force me into the 80 other hours I don’t particularly want. I am more apt to spend more time in the game that gives me options (and thus play longer than 100 hours), than the game that forces me into playing stuff I don’t necessary want.


Companies that successfully sale DLC do so on reputation and customer loyalty. The simple fact is, a publisher will not get the DLC sales they are likely seeking when their DLC track-record is less than hideous
Which just boils down to personal preference, but even so, it takes more than just DLC to make or break a game, unless that is someone’s sole focus. A game is more than the sum of its DLC. If the base game sucks, it doesn’t matter how much stuff is crammed into a DLC, or how good that stuff is, I will not play that game if I do not enjoy it. It gets back to what value I feel I am getting for my money, as I said above.


I'm not sure I would consider 6 (can't remember the precise number) singular open-rooms you can lap in 40 seconds to be an area to explore. You zone in -- you've seen the room, now you can leave.
New areas are new areas, even if they are re-skinned. Again, it is a matter of perception and has less to do with what other games choose to do. Defiance isn’t a game about exploration (except for the Data Recorders). It is a game about shooting things in the face. I really don’t need any more map areas in order to continue to enjoy that. Naturally, in the future, I would like to see more areas of the world that are talked about in the game and in the show, but that’s kinda low on my priority list.



Its actually very much implied. When Defiance came out, "Get the Season Pass for Season 1!" was all over the place. This heavily implied 5 DLC during season 1.
Implying is not promising, and “implying”, by nature, is entirely on the person who is making the false assumption. Again, it gets back to gamers not being able to manage their own expectations. That is not the game develper’s fault – that rests solely with the gamer. Again, nothing I ever saw ever gave me reason to think, infer, or otherwise believe that the Season Pass meant we would get all 5 DLCs before the show’s season finale finished airing.


The hype was so much that devs were spawning them in-game to show off to players. Spawned them, crawled in the turrets and killed mobs. This is not confusion on our end. Everyone that saw this knew exactly what they saw -- there was no mistaking it.

As far as the motorcycles are concerned, it was promised (http://forums.defiance.com/archive/index.php/t-123789.html?) many times before the game went live.

And there is nothing wrong with Devs hyping up something they want to add in the game. In fact, I would have serious issues if a developer was not excited about things they want to include in their game. However, as I have said before, game development is fluid and common sense dictates that no matter how much a dev or a gamer wants something a game, it may not always be possible and in the end may either need to be modified or scrapped. Personally speaking, I am very thankful that Trion decided to scrap the turret. While in a closed and controlled testing environment, it may work and look like a fantastic idea, the actual implementation of having this in the game – even if it was perfect and bug free, would have been an absolute disaster. I thank Trion for having the guts and the smarts to get rid of the turret before putting the Raptor in the game. The only issue I have with it is that the vehicle is considered a roller and not a cerebus. That would be the only change I want for it.

BJWyler
12-12-2013, 09:14 AM
I made this clear by stating that there is likely no law broken because it is a virtual product and no real storefront.

I said:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_of_the_Laws (purely educational in understanding what I mean by "the spirit".

Question -- (I realize there is no way to word this without sounding overly condescending, so I apologize ahead of time) are you inept or have some deficiency at reading (understandable, many people do and I can tolerate this, and it could just be simple error, which I apologize for the harshness in trying to get to the bottom of it) or are you purposely trying to pretend I'm saying things I'm not by contorting my quotes out of context (which I won't tolerate)? I've noticed this to be a pattern with you in several posts and you started very early on by trying to state that I for fact stated that Trion made some solid post of promises which I directly said there was no direct promises made, only indirect:

No problem reading at all. This simply does not fall under bait and switch. I could explain in detail why, but that ultimately is not the purpose of the thread, and this being the Interwebs and all, well stuff like that certainly must always be taken with a grain of salt when coming from a relatively unknown person sitting behind the keyboard (like myself). I will be content to let you believe what you will. From my standpoint, personal experience and the knowledge of those whom I know well and deal with these types of matters lead me to believe/know otherwise.

Mike Chone
12-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Agreed that all things are relative, but we have seen the ongoing trend of games getting away from those artificial barriers and grind and putting in the optional ones. WoW was a big move in the casual direction, and I think games like Defiance, Rift, and GW1/GW2 are just further extensions of that. In the end, all grind and time sinks are relatively the same – the difference is in the perception of the person playing. When the grind/gate is forced upon the player (such as the design of Factions in Guild Wars 1), that is taken less favorably than the ones that are implemented that leaves the grind optional or places the choice to grind or not to grind in the hands of the player, and that which allow them to complete the content at their desired pace.

I can agree with this, which is why I said it is paramount the devs refrain from going nuts when implementing these kinds of grinds. There also needs to be considerably more rewards from these grinds as well, such as, ensuring that a player (if they stay the path) will be at least 1,000 ego by the time they finish the main story-line.

Again, this is a bandaide to be perfectly honest to slow people down from being weekend-one-time-players of the game. When someone can play from start to finish in just 24 game hours (I did it in 18 my first time) it makes the rest of the game very superficial, and if I weren't a fan of the series and the shooter style mechanic in a MMO, I would have been one of those that found no further value to the game and no attatchment to the character I've built and would have moved a long.

The attachment to the character should never be undervalued. Look at EverQuest -- we can both relate. The story/lore of EverQuest isn't as long as you might think (until they came out with the comics and books) and collector's edition stuff. In fact most people playing that game today knows very little about the actual lore -- I know I was a Senior Guide LOL. What keeps people playing that game is the incredible attachment they have from all the time investments into their characters -- in retrospect, they are elitists. But it is those elitists that keep playing the game, passing on their knowledge, and making the game more fun for everyone else that plays.

Again, we cannot undervalue the the sheer attachment players can have on their characters and the time investments as such.


No amount of grind or gating will prevent people from speed rushing to “end game.” As such, game design should not take these types of players into consideration. Doing so would ruin the game for the “normal”crowd. From a personal standpoint, it could have been implemented that in order to progress through the storyline missions, one had to complete a certain number of major and minor arkfalls between pre-determined mission points. For me, I would find that unfavorable because then I am forced into playing content I may not feel like playing on any particular gameplay session. However, as it is implemented now, I have the option to play whatever I feel like playing when I log in. It is still the same content, but now I find it enjoyable because the choice of what I am doing in each session is my own, and I am not forced into content in order to progess during a session.

Indeed, however if we can discourage just 20% of the newcomers from doing this, then that would be 20% more players that would likely play this game for years on end solving the population problem. I didn't say my ideas are perfect by any stretch but as I see it, they are the only ideas on the table thus far that don't require Trion to shell out more than they're making for the game.


I don’t disagree with the “Carrot on a stick” notion. When I first started playing and finally got my first Legendary, I was quite underwhelmed by the result. I always thought that the colored tiers of gear should show some increase of power between identical weapons, without making them feel like I was gimped for not using them. Fortunately, the update to the weapons rolls system now brings that to bear slightly, so each higher tier of weapon will add to one’s power. The good thing is, you are not overly gimped for not using those weapons. That’s what I like about Defiance – I can use whatever kind and color of weapon I want and still let it come down to skill with said weapons for success or failure.

I think you misread again. I was clear that OJ's should be very special weapons and the holy-grail in this game. As it stands they are not, as you said, very underwhelming for their rarities.


There will always be those arguments. I am an RPGer by heart and love a deep customization system that includes everything from initial character creation to “loadouts.” This is a personal preference type of thing here, and no system can satisfy anyone. However, knowing who I am at any rate, I haven’t felt that issue at all with Defiance. And that is coming from someone who wants their toon to be more unique than the most unique snowflake out there.

Indeed, but that does not mean we should not shoot for objectives that targets a super-majority.


And that’s why it is too each their own. I make my ultimate judgments on a game by game basis. “Am I getting value for the money I am spending on this game?” What STO does, what WoW does, What Rift does, what SWTOR does, what any other company does for their game has no bearing on my assessment of value for all the other games that I play, no more than one Retailer that offers a 5 for 1 deal when another offers a 3 for 1 deal. My assessment comes from the deals individually and not comparatively, even if the deals involve the same product – because ultimately, the overall value comes from more than just the deal and the product.

It is actually very critical that you compare your game experiences to other experiences to guage a sense of value in the game. For instance, when RuneScape came out there was literally nothing to compare it to. People said it was the best of the best out there, until EverQuest came out. Then in comparison, EverQuest was the cat's meow, until World of Warcraft and so on. In order to be objective about a MMO, it is absolutely crucial that you compare that MMO to other experiences like it.


I don’t care how much content the other games may release or what price they charge. If I am playing those games, I assess the value based on the package for that game. Right now, I feel like the current DLC in Defiance is enough of a value for me to spend the money on. Would having crapton of more stuff in the DLC for the same price be desirable and awesome? Of course it would, but just because it isn’t there and other games do whatever they want to do doesn’t mean I am not going to buy it and enjoy it here if I still think it’s worth the money.

You may feel this way now, you may even feel this way six months from now, but it is not you you should be worrying about -- it is others. Remember the success of any MMO's is the community and when the community is unhappy, it doesn't matter how ecstatic you are, if you are alone, you'll be playing alone until the operations budget for the game runs out at which time you'll still be alone when the switch is flipped. At which point you then ask yourself "What did I pay for then?" and then you have that 'ah ha' moment of clairvoyance into how the game wasn't about your satisfaction but the satisfaction of those around you.


The difference is what I mentioned above – it’s where the choice lies. If I am forced to do it in order to progress, then yes it is a bad thing. If the choice of how and when I want to do it, then it’s a good thing. Take Daiblo III for instance (I don’t play it because of the on-line thing, but anyway) – let’s say there are 5 different difficulty levels, but in order to unlock the higher levels, you need to complete the base game first. To me that is bad. Why should I have to grind through the first tiers of the base game and levels if all I want to do is play the Nightmare Mode? Let’s say that the campaign takes 20 hours to complete. By gating the levels it would take me 100 hours to “complete” everything. However, 80 of those hours wouldn’t be as enjoyable as the final 20. I would much rather a game allow me to enjoy the 20 hours I want rather than force me into the 80 other hours I don’t particularly want. I am more apt to spend more time in the game that gives me options (and thus play longer than 100 hours), than the game that forces me into playing stuff I don’t necessary want.

Again, to critically objectify this situation you have to stop thinking about what you want for a moment and think what others need -- what this game needs. Whether or not it is to your or my benefit, this game needs time syncs to retain players plowing through it. Sure, the time going through the missions would be as enjoyable on its face, but if you were going through these missions consistently with 3 other players, this would multiply the fun you have right now by 3. So imagine now that the game was 2x less fun with the time syncs but you had 3 others to go with you -- well you have [to attempt to quantify it] (fun(0.5))3 = fun(2). This means you would be, after the dust settles, two times the fun with more people and time syncs.


Which just boils down to personal preference, but even so, it takes more than just DLC to make or break a game, unless that is someone’s sole focus. A game is more than the sum of its DLC. If the base game sucks, it doesn’t matter how much stuff is crammed into a DLC, or how good that stuff is, I will not play that game if I do not enjoy it. It gets back to what value I feel I am getting for my money, as I said above.

Indeed, and the point I'm making is that it is not just your personal preference which is important. If you and Trion aren't thinking about the mass's collective preferences, the game will fail -- it is a no-brainier. Sure you may not be having as much fun (so you think) but it beats the lights at Trion from being turned off doesn't it?


New areas are new areas, even if they are re-skinned. Again, it is a matter of perception and has less to do with what other games choose to do. Defiance isn’t a game about exploration (except for the Data Recorders). It is a game about shooting things in the face. I really don’t need any more map areas in order to continue to enjoy that. Naturally, in the future, I would like to see more areas of the world that are talked about in the game and in the show, but that’s kinda low on my priority list.

I cannot agree with this. New areas, re-skinned that put you in a 20x20 room is not new content and feels very cheap to most players.


Implying is not promising, and “implying”, by nature, is entirely on the person who is making the false assumption. Again, it gets back to gamers not being able to manage their own expectations. That is not the game develper’s fault – that rests solely with the gamer. Again, nothing I ever saw ever game me reason to think, infer, or otherwise believe that the Season Pass meant we would get all 5 DLCs before the show’s season finale finished airing.

Implying is not promising -- no it is not (agreeing), but in marketing you have to be very careful what is implied because issues are run into of false advertising and bait and switch (if you were a store), and the same standards should always apply to any merchant because it remains just as wrong if you are selling digital goods or if you are selling tangible goods in a store-front. Ethics do not change simply because you change medium and when a company is seen and stigmatized with having a low standard of ethics, gaining future customers is an impossibility.


And there is nothing wrong with Devs hyping up something they want to add in the game. In fact, I would have serious issues if a developer was not excited about things they want to include in their game. However, as I have said before, game development is fluid and common sense dictates that no matter how much a dev or a gamer wants something a game, it may not always be possible and in the end may either need to be modified or scrapped. Personally speaking, I am very thankful that Trion decided to scrap the turret. While in a closed and controlled testing environment, it may work and look like a fantastic idea, the actual implementation of having this in the game – even if it was perfect and bug free, would have been an absolute disaster. I thank Trion for having the guts and the smarts to get rid of the turret before putting the Raptor in the game. The only issue I have with it is that the vehicle is considered a roller and not a cerebus. That would be the only change I want for it.

When they are under a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) until the game goes live which is standard practice in the industry, the only reason there would be any hype is if it was authorized by the publishers (Trion or SyFy). At any rate, this would be so very wrong and wouldn't represent the developer's excitement but it would represent an nearly quantify the greed of these corporations which is again a very negative mark.

Mike Chone
12-12-2013, 09:27 AM
No problem reading at all. This simply does not fall under bait and switch. I could explain in detail why, but that ultimately is not the purpose of the thread, and this being the Interwebs and all, well stuff like that certainly must always be taken with a grain of salt when coming from a relatively unknown person sitting behind the keyboard (like myself). I will be content to let you believe what you will. From my standpoint, personal experience and the knowledge of those whom I know well and deal with these types of matters lead me to believe/know otherwise.

Indeed, as I clarified it in the post you quoted. However the spirit of the Bait and Switch laws applies equivocally as its theory and premise remains the same -- no one can argue that there was a bait as it was indeed there, and then a switch (namely a big one that just took place in this DLC by making arkfalls less frequent while allowing people to pay real money to spawn their own) which also cannot be argued as the game was much less of value that originally stated, however the option was given to buy additional DLC to make the game better to a point it would live up to its hype. This is the precise spirit of bait and switch in a virtual market.

To see how this applies look at some of the other (very irreverent) laws that were created specifically for newer technologies. Fraud is an example. There was no such thing as "Wire Fraud" until phones came about and people couldn't be charged with fraud without being face-to-face with the victim. The thing is, the spirit nevertheless remained the same, so 'wire fraud' was then created and enforced specifically to address the spirit of fraud over the telephone, and now, other electronic communications. To further drive the point, mail fraud is another critical subject of the same, as this law did not exist until after the US Postal Service was founded.

These crimes, while having nothing to do with bait and switch (except the fraud of it), demonstrate how the spirit of the crime can be extended to other means as technology advances. The internet is still rather new and our country and states have still yet to draft laws that cover and protect the virtual market places. However and again, I can guarantee you that regardless of this, what Trion has done meets the spirit of Bait and Switch and will more likely than not be very illegal in time.

To give you an idea, the same actions that have taken place here by Trion, is already being addressed in a House Resolution on the floor now (it may be dead now, I haven't been following it) while embedded into an online sales tax law:

http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-opinion/2013/11/what_will_the_us_house_do_with.html

The name of this bill is, "The Marketplace Fairness Act" if you want to have a go at it. The specific provision that provides Bait and Switch protection is the "Online Marketplace Frauds" under "Bait and Switch" which covers publishers advertising features, and once paying for the game with those features, the features are either not present or removed and then offers being made to purchase the features separately from the main game already purchased.

Riz
12-12-2013, 09:59 AM
Nice open letter m8. Kinda sums up the reasons why i quit playing Defiance. Love the game, and still checking back once every two weeks or so. But can't really say i'm an active player anymore. Since i was naive (or stupid) enough to purchase the season pass at launch i'll also be checking out the DLC's. Gotta say i was quit dissapointed with the first DLC. We got a broken car, an ugly outfit, a useless blade and an arena where it could be fun playing in if it was made for co-op. To solo those arena's is kinda boring. Then again, since all my friends retired as well and the EU-PS3 server is nearly dead, who would be there to co-op with anyways lol. There was a bit more in that DLC, but i gotta say it was unimpressive that i already forgot what it was.

Been reading the content for DLC 2, and will check it out this weekend. But my hopes for a good second DLC are already out the window. You could say my expectations were too high. Sure, but the price of 30 euro's (plus the 55 euro i paid for the full game at launch) is also high. And it saddens me to see that, again, there is no new REAL content as in a new area to explore. Or even a lengthy addition to the storyline even, maybe some side-storyline with new missions. It's not strange to 'expect' something worth the money you paid. I wouldnt say Trion lied (yet), 5 DLC's is 5 DLC's and i believe they'll deliver them. No one mentioned quality, and that's where it all goes wrong. It feels like they just launched the game, had no idea for a DLC what-so-ever and just try to make things up along the way. It feels cheap and forced.

After a full year i am still playing Borderlands 2. And i wondered why i do still play that, but stopped playing Defiance. There is two huge differences between those games. The first are the DLC's. Where Gearbox actually manages to produce good DLC's with usefull new loot, nice characters and a good story, Trion does the opposite. They give us a goodiebag of broken goodies and thats it. No new life been blown into Defiance, just same old stuff to do. The second thing is the loot itself. Borderlands hands you the opportunity to level up and get gear and weapons that match your new level. In Defiance everything is the same, feels the same. The idea that an EGO 200 player can co-op with an EGO 3000 player is nice, but in a way also completely unrewarding for players that keep playing. I got 21 unallocated EGO-points cause i dont need to spent them anymore. Got my 5 loadouts as i want them. Completed the story, did all the sidemission and reached the 'Trusted' status with all factions. It feels like i'm done, i made it and Trion doesnt give me a reason to come back and achieve more. There is no 'more'. Sad...

bostonmauler
12-12-2013, 03:18 PM
People who claim to have played MMO games for 20+ years are in fact liars trying to make themselves appear knowledgable. I know this because I personally have played mom games ever since the very first came out. That was just 1996, when Origin Servers revolutionized gaming entirely by introducing Ultima Online. This was a pc game, but it was released long before online console games were ever even concieved. With that brutal truth cleared up I shall address another issue regarding this thread. Mike Chone, you honestly have a few half bakes and mostly moot points. The only valid in thing you said was in regards to game population not needing to depend on a television show. Your idea of timed kill counts etc is mediocre. The only thing this game needs is a way to have multiple quests active at once, other ran that your idea would not even remotely apply in a dynamic content MMO with such fast re spawn rates. I would venture to guess that you do not work for Trion, or any other game creator, nor have you ever. Keep in mind that the game world is directly effected by the direction the TV show goes and vice versa, so they can't unlock new areas until the show includes them. Same for storylines, plots etc.

Mike Chone
12-12-2013, 03:28 PM
People who claim to have played MMO games for 20+ years are in fact liars trying to make themselves appear knowledgable. I know this because I personally have played mom games ever since the very first came out. That was just 1996, when Origin Servers revolutionized gaming entirely by introducing Ultima Online. This was a pc game, but it was released long before online console games were ever even concieved.

Who said they were playing MMO's for 20 years? I started in 1999 when EQ came out, before then I was doing muds back in 1992 (which is about 20 years and precisely what MMO's today are based on, just more visual :P ) Muds were indeed massive, they were multiplayer, they were also role-playing games... Just without all the 3-D :P


With that brutal truth cleared up I shall address another issue regarding this thread. Mike Chone, you honestly have a few half bakes and mostly moot points. The only valid in thing you said was in regards to game population not needing to depend on a television show. Your idea of timed kill counts etc is mediocre.

Half baked? Sure, I'm not paid to think tank ideas for MMO publishers. Are you? Moot? That's hardly the case being that population is a problem and being talked about a LOT here, on steam, and around the web, with complaints centered around most of the points I discussed. Don't call me moot for making observations and proposing ideas to fix them -- that's like me trolling your 20 year thing with saying muds have been around for 30+ years.


The only thing this game needs is a way to have multiple quests active at once, other ran that your idea would not even remotely apply in a dynamic content MMO with such fast re spawn rates.

Just to ensure I'm reading what you said right: you are proposing that the quest system be muti-missioned so players who can already achieve the main story-line in 24 hours can do so even faster and catalyze the revolving door in this game? I can't say I agree in the least.


I would venture to guess that you do not work for Trion, or any other game creator, nor have you ever.

What gave that way? The fact I had to ask Trion to do something? Better yet, where did I claim this to begin with? :S


Keep in mind that the game world is directly effected by the direction the TV show goes and vice versa, so they can't unlock new areas until the show includes them. Same for storylines, plots etc.

Yet not a single 'moot' point I made -- sorry I mean my suggestions, had anything to do with adding new content.