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Maledon
04-02-2013, 01:06 PM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.

I liked the old EQ2 system where you got XP debt every time you died and from that point 50% of all XP went to paying off the debt.

I think the newer generation of players is more casual so I understand why MMOGs are care bear but it'd be nice to fear dying (in game) again.

Spyle
04-02-2013, 01:08 PM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.

I liked the old EQ2 system where you got XP debt every time you died and from that point 50% of all XP went to paying off the debt.

I think the newer generation of players is more casual so I understand why MMOGs are care bear but it'd be nice to fear dying (in game) again.

Yeah I'm guessing it's been discussed a thousand times, but I agree with you. At the very least there shouldn't be a self-revive. That's just silly.

Chivaro
04-02-2013, 01:14 PM
Yeah I'm guessing it's been discussed a thousand times, but I agree with you. At the very least there shouldn't be a self-revive. That's just silly.
There's a cooldown on self revive.

Yars Revenge
04-02-2013, 01:17 PM
I'm on the fence with this one. I hate the CoD style of play where everyone runs around shooting without a care because kills count, but deaths don't.

On the other hand, how long would it take to finish a major arkfall if everyone was running away as soon as they took a hit or two of damage?

Maybe they can create a cool-down time that increases with each death in a certain time frame. Not really a solution, but a compromise.

Daholic
04-02-2013, 01:22 PM
There's a cooldown on self revive.

OOOhhhh cooldown on self revive!!!!.....

Listen, ive said this once before, and i agree with the OP, this game is dumb down so that everyone will fell special, and noone will be left out. Debt death would be awesome, but you would have a bunch of people crying about it.

Vertis
04-02-2013, 01:26 PM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.

I liked the old EQ2 system where you got XP debt every time you died and from that point 50% of all XP went to paying off the debt.

I think the newer generation of players is more casual so I understand why MMOGs are care bear but it'd be nice to fear dying (in game) again.


what ego level are you? It starts easy - trust me it gets hard and $$ starts flying out the window by the percentage.

FourEyes
04-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Walk away from the computer for six hours every single time you die. There we go, instant hardcore death penalty.

Arsenic_Touch
04-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Your scrip repair is based on your EGO level, when you get to the real part of the game, outside of what was available in the BETA and your ego level is higher you'll start to see that death is not something to laugh at.

AZAG0TH
04-02-2013, 01:28 PM
I am 100% fine with things as they are

dreadburn
04-02-2013, 01:30 PM
Walk away from the computer for six hours every single time you die. There we go, instant hardcore death penalty.

An even better one is delete your character each time you die.

JucheBoy
04-02-2013, 01:31 PM
Once you get to a higher ego level, running around trying to kill the enemy won't be such a good idea.

Nexos_Arc
04-02-2013, 03:40 PM
perma death for all pls.
no it's not optional ;-)

mikuniman
04-02-2013, 03:44 PM
Death penalty was just one of the many features in older mmos to slow you down and create sub time. I would hate to see that and stupid repair system. Keep it fun!

SunyataBound
04-02-2013, 03:48 PM
An even better one is delete your character each time you die.

This. Do it. Please. It will spice up your game in just that way you're looking for. I promise!

Dixa
04-02-2013, 03:53 PM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.

I liked the old EQ2 system where you got XP debt every time you died and from that point 50% of all XP went to paying off the debt.

I think the newer generation of players is more casual so I understand why MMOGs are care bear but it'd be nice to fear dying (in game) again.

gamers today no longer tolerate harsh death penalties. mmorpg's have been making death penalties non existent for a while now. even original eq no longer leaves your gear on your corpse. why?

because people with money won't spend it on such games, regardless of what someone like you wants.

Yars Revenge
04-02-2013, 03:53 PM
I am amazed at how many negative comments came from this post. Turn the game off, delete character. Basically the brats are getting defensive when their fun game is threatened. How dare someone suggest a game or any situation where there are consequences to one's actions. They just want to win win win and have fun. Being challenged in any way is just too tough.

mikuniman
04-02-2013, 04:02 PM
I am amazed at how many negative comments came from this post. Turn the game off, delete character. Basically the brats are getting defensive when their fun game is threatened. How dare someone suggest a game or any situation where there are consequences to one's actions. They just want to win win win and have fun. Being challenged in any way is just too tough.

Typical generic response and narrow view. This is more about inconvenience than having anything to do with challenge. All your transparent post says is that your elite and if anyone else doesn't agree with your idea of difficulty should not play that game.

mikuniman
04-02-2013, 04:03 PM
is that Amanda Tapping? nice pic!

Philote
04-02-2013, 04:14 PM
This is a double edged blade for me. On one hand added challenge would be nice, but on the other, I've had some very unfair deaths in this game simply because I was overwhelmed or a grenade launcher mutant just lobbed three grenades at once right under my feet regardless of how much I dodge roll away.

Though, they could add a death penalty after your first death. Maybe doubling cooldown for powers or reducing movement speed when not driving a vehicle, forcing you to be less reckless until you're at full strength again.

Shismar
04-02-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.


I played EQ2 for quite some time and and about 7 years of EQ and I am happy there is no death penalty in Defiance. It sucked back then and it would suck today, no thanks.

Dixa
04-02-2013, 04:23 PM
I played EQ2 for quite some time and and about 7 years of EQ and I am happy there is no death penalty in Defiance. It sucked back then and it would suck today, no thanks.

there is no death penalty in eq or eq2 anymore, either

just an FYI

Alexilon
04-02-2013, 04:28 PM
I am amazed at how many negative comments came from this post. Turn the game off, delete character. Basically the brats are getting defensive when their fun game is threatened. How dare someone suggest a game or any situation where there are consequences to one's actions. They just want to win win win and have fun. Being challenged in any way is just too tough.

Well I heard Wizardry Online is all hardcore and stuff. Permadeath and everything. Go play that. :3

Clarkeh
04-02-2013, 04:44 PM
what ego level are you? It starts easy - trust me it gets hard and $$ starts flying out the window by the percentage.

This man speaks the truth when you start fighting Raiders and 99ers with thier instagib shotguns/grenades **** gets real.

Philote
04-02-2013, 04:46 PM
This man speaks the truth when you start fighting Raiders and 99ers with thier instagib shotguns/grenades **** gets real.
I can't wait.

Chaotichorizon
04-02-2013, 04:47 PM
An even better one is delete your character each time you die.

I like this one. Thats some hardcore sh!t right there.

Valethar
04-02-2013, 04:52 PM
Death penalties are bad. If you want to be hardcore, delete your character when you die.

There's already a timer on revive, and there's a small fee in scrip as well. There's also travel time involved since you go to the last extract beacon you tagged, not the closest one to you. You can literally wind up going from the Golden Gate Bridge back to Mt. Tam if you miss the beacon after you quick travel to the Bug and Chug, for example.

The idea here is for them to make money. If they drive off the average player because of punitive death penalties, they lose out on sales in the cash shop, and possible box sales when people start QQing about the death penalty on the web.

Yars Revenge
04-02-2013, 04:59 PM
Typical generic response and narrow view. This is more about inconvenience than having anything to do with challenge. All your transparent post says is that your elite and if anyone else doesn't agree with your idea of difficulty should not play that game.

I am anything but typical and generic. Trying to put me into a stereotype and thereby minimizing my opinion is a cheap and low-ball tactic. My comment was in reference to the way people attacked the OP. Their responses were to play it the way they like it or leave. Isn't that the same elitist attitude you accuse me of having? Please don't try to project labels on me. They aren't accurate and you don't have a firm enough grasp of the pscho-babble you are attempting to pass off as knowledge.

Since you brought up the concept of inconvenience vs challenge; I say you're almost correct. The best way of phrasing it is that many people feel inconvenienced when they are challenged. The two go hand in hand. As a society, we are evolving in what upsets us. Whereas in the past one needed to be hurt, harmed or wronged in some way to inspire anger or indignation, now anything that inconveniences us is considered just cause.

In case it was too inconvenient for you to read the whole thing, I will para phrase: I'm right and you're wrong.

Dagbiker
04-02-2013, 05:07 PM
I am not the best third person shooter player in the world, and I don't mind having to fear death. I have played, perhaps 4 hours today, and died thrice, once because I drove into a place I couldn't handle. But the other two times, i died i found i kept being damaged and didn't know how to fix the situation.

I didn't know if I was doing a mission, ( one of the story missions ) and was under leveled. I did not know, nor was the game communicating how I should win this scenario. So I died, and died, and finally, i just ran around turning for half a second and shooting before the mutants could rush up and kill me.

If there was more communication on how to improve, whether it be through loot, or through pop ups, suggesting how to defeat what just killed you. Then I would agree with you. But until then, I dont think its fair to punish the player for brute forcing the game when the game doesn't really help you do it any other way.

Yars Revenge
04-02-2013, 05:10 PM
Dagbiker: great point. I think there has to be a middle point. Stronger penalties for dying but a better understanding of how to avoid it.

Nexos_Arc
04-02-2013, 05:10 PM
.... As a society, we are evolving in what upsets us. Whereas in the past one needed to be hurt, harmed or wronged in some way to inspire anger or indignation, now anything that inconveniences us is considered just cause.

are we talking about a computer GAME here :D

Suikoden
04-02-2013, 05:11 PM
I've died a bunch of times already on some quests. I probably suck and am OK with that. Or probably due to the fact that I'm all Overcharge so far and have no decoy, blink, or cloak to save me like 99% of players are using :)

Yars Revenge
04-02-2013, 05:23 PM
Nexos_Arc:
Yes we are talking about a game. I sometimes forget that when I enter forums. Thanks for the reminder.

Moose Of Woe
04-02-2013, 05:27 PM
This is more about inconvenience than having anything to do with challenge.

Inconvenience?

Say you're in the middle of a mission, and on a boss mob at the end of it. You get the boss' HP halfway down, and you die twice. You lost some chump change you'll make up in minutes, run thirty seconds back to the mission, and the boss is STILL AT HALF HEALTH. How in the hell is that not about challenge? You can't possibly lose.

What is the point of playing the game when the outcome is predetermined? It's like starting a game of Monopoly with all the money in the bank and the other player (CPU) has nothing. Where is the fun is that? The outcome is already decided.

This game is nothing more than zergfest. You don't even need an army of zerglings - just yourself. You're not encouraged to redo the mission without playing like an idiot or committing too many mistakes - you can just figuratively bash your head against a wall until you break through. No matter what you do, you can not lose. There is no weight to your actions. No risk, all reward.

I never thought I'd see a more absurd system than Dead Island. In Dead Island, you spawn roughly ten yards from where you die. Like Defiance, all mission progress/enemy health is not reset and you lose some chump change. It was essentially the same system - only you didn't have an option to spawn ON THE SAME SPOT for five minutes at a time.

For those who do find the game difficult...what would you consider easy to be? At the rate we're going, we may as well omit dying altogether and give everyone infinite HP outside of PvP. That would make it more accessible I suppose.

I'm not saying we need permadeath, full loot, etc. That's one extreme. What people need to realize is we're already at the OTHER extreme and it absolutely ruins games. A non-winnable game is not fun. For many, neither is an non loseable one.

There is next to nothing they can do to make Defiance easier aside from an "I win" button or infinite HP in PvE.

Moose Of Woe
04-02-2013, 05:34 PM
are we talking about a computer GAME here :D

What is a game if you already know who wins?

Laughter
04-02-2013, 05:36 PM
I fear dying. It hurts my epeen. :(

Chaz
04-02-2013, 06:35 PM
jeez so what, this game obviously isn't meant to be hardcore. Why should dying be something to be feared with how casual this is? Also its a game people, not a simulation and an mmo at that of course the death penalties will be light.

Moose Of Woe
04-02-2013, 06:50 PM
Also its a game people, not a simulation and an mmo at that of course the death penalties will be light.

Light is fine. Borderline non existent, though?

I'd be satisfied if at least all the enemies you killed in a mission didn't stay dead when you, yourself, croak. It completely trivializes the death mechanic. You can just keep chucking your corpse at a mission until you finish it.

MADTHINKER
04-02-2013, 06:50 PM
A death penalty? No MMO that I know of has a death penalty today. I think Everquest was the last MMO to have a death penalty that trained you to avoid death at all costs. Today. all MMOs are designed to be as easy as possible to appeal to as many people as possible. The success of the Wii to bring in non gamers by offering something so simplistic grandma and grandpa could play has motivated game producers to focus even more on making games easy.

FourEyes
04-03-2013, 04:07 AM
Curious how far you've actually gotten, Moose.

Kawwah85
04-03-2013, 04:09 AM
I wouldn't like it if the game punished you too hard for dying. Not in a game like Defiance, where dying is pretty often unavoidable (For a lesser good player like me). I think its fine the way it is.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Curious how far you've actually gotten, Moose.

I'm curious as to why nobody can refute my claim with substance. Simply posting one or two sentence replies asking another question instead of making a case against it. Well, actually I'm not surprised because when there is no evidence to back them people love to detract from the actual subject by asking questions about the person presenting an argument. But, I'll humor you.

I've started over twice. Currently I'm just outside the tutorial area and not playing/progressing while my girlfriend downloads the game on her ghetto internet. She's been trying to get the patcher to fully download correctly for two days without errors. The furthest I've gotten was a bit in to the third area/just after fighting El Gigante or whatever he was on the docks. Marin, I think it was.

Are you implying if I got Bob's Big Boy to half health, and he actually managed to kill me, I'd have to start the level over and/or he'd be back to full health? Or that the same applies to later enemies/missions, for that matter? If so, I retract my previous statement.

As for the ins and outs of the game, I've also done four or five of the instances and typically score 1-3 on Arfkall events. I have a pretty good idea of how the mechanics work. Again - if I'm wrong and enemies/bosses start resetting and instances suddenly get interesting after EGO 400 or so let me know. I would be pleasantly surprised and happy to be wrong. I'd be nothing less than shocked if the game mechanics altered to such an extent beyond a certain point.

I realize monetary loss goes up with EGO rating, but it's nothing significant. The game showers you with loot and scrip at a rate it should never be an issue.

(Waits for attack response saying the equivalent of, "Go play this instead, delete your character/some other stupid self-imposed rule." Neither of which has nothing to do with the state of the actual game.)

Dixa
04-03-2013, 01:12 PM
A death penalty? No MMO that I know of has a death penalty today. I think Everquest was the last MMO to have a death penalty that trained you to avoid death at all costs. Today. all MMOs are designed to be as easy as possible to appeal to as many people as possible. The success of the Wii to bring in non gamers by offering something so simplistic grandma and grandpa could play has motivated game producers to focus even more on making games easy.

last one was daoc actually - you lost xp but could not lose levels and kept your gear

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 01:41 PM
Inconvenience?
What is the point of playing the game when the outcome is predetermined? It's like starting a game of Monopoly with all the money in the bank and the other player (CPU) has nothing. Where is the fun is that? The outcome is already decided.


Every game you play, every single one, is pre-determined. If you play long enough, you get to the credits, see the cinematic, and your character saves the day, gets the Cheetos, eats the cookie and rides off on a golden pony shooting rainbows out of its tail. The outcome as you say, was decided. It was decided before you even bought the box in the store, downloaded it from steam, or watched the video of the trailer online. You are partaking in a developers' idea of an entertaining experience, and it very much is already decided as you put it.




I'm not saying we need permadeath, full loot, etc. That's one extreme. What people need to realize is we're already at the OTHER extreme and it absolutely ruins games. A non-winnable game is not fun. For many, neither is an non loseable one.


Oh? Are we now at this "extreme"? Define "loseable", please. Unless your character and all progress is deleted without hope of recovery, you, by definition, have a "non-loseable" game; Its just a matter of time and you "win", period. It may take hours, days, or weeks, but unless you can no longer re-start, re-load, re-try, you by definition, cannot lose.

Losing a game means you get kicked out, sent to the starting line, can't re-try from the last measurable progress marker and are "done"; You lost the game, start over. A few games have that in them, they call it "hardcore".

Further, some of the most successful games of all time in gaming history have been "casual" or "indie" games where there is no possible way to "win" OR "lose", you play to relax, entertain, and dare I say, laugh or have fun.



This game is nothing more than zergfest. You don't even need an army of zerglings - just yourself. You're not encouraged to redo the mission without playing like an idiot or committing too many mistakes - you can just figuratively bash your head against a wall until you break through. No matter what you do, you can not lose. There is no weight to your actions. No risk, all reward.


So....How is this different from any other mmo, computer game or Hell, I will even throw in something as old as arcade games; Just drop in another quarter and BAM, keep going. Given that, your point is......You want to spend more time "working" for something, suffering "significant loss", outside of actual real life job/life? (Yes, I'm doing that horrible thing you hate, asking YOU questions).



I realize monetary loss goes up with EGO rating, but it's nothing significant. The game showers you with loot and scrip at a rate it should never be an issue.


So here comes another question...Define, "significant". I know, those pesky "return questions", the bane of all good discussion and debate. What, to you, would be "significant", and why?

Do you need to lose random items from your inventory if you make a "mistake" to feel a sense of well-being about a leisure activity like a computer game?

Do you need to go backwards in levels to make it feel more like "work" and less like, oh I dunno, "fun", so you can justify the time spent playing?

Would losing say, 30% of scrip, salvage, and reputation at once if you die, be "significant" enough to be able to say "I had to work in my game, therefore my time was well spent in my leisure activity!"


In reading the replies in the thread from those who would like more work, loss, and "significant" struggle in their game; I have a challenge for you, that has not once been taken up, by anyone, in nearly 2 decades of me presenting it.

I come from an era of gaming where the games were all text, Zork and before, where graphics were literally big fat squares glued together at right angles to represent a plane, or a tank, and another big square was a projectile that simply erased the target from the other side of the play field to represent its destruction.

I have played games that deleted you, on the spot, for dying. A great example was called PoMud, a Diku derived MUD. You went to an altar, prayed to the gods to give you but one life, and the code set a flag for your character. If you ever died, no matter the cause, lag, stupidity, cat on the keyboard, etc, the game deleted you, period. The admins could not recover your character by any means. You were gone, you lost, an you were kicked out to the log-in screen for the server.

I was, until the game shut-down, the 2nd highest level person in the game, behind only what I can surmise was a cyborg of a human with some kind of magic ESP power allowing him to evade death. I died, re-started probably a hundred times over the course of the servers life and every time, the first thing I did was go pray at that altar. Over and over and over.

I have lived/breathed and left these games to the dustbin of history, that become work instead of play and I am pretty sure not a single one of you will do this, you're not from my generation, where games WERE work.



Each and every one of you has the ability to make this, and any other game, as difficult as you want it, without forcing your own personal need, or desire for work, struggle or pain on anyone else. Its quite simple really, and quite fun if you are really looking for challenge, but, I don't think you are, but, hey, here goes.


For defiance :

Get a pistol, I'll even make it easy for you, ANY pistol. Purple, blue, orange, anything, with any bonuses.

Use this to EXCLUSION. You are allowed to sell only every fifth item you find, and salvage every 10th. Other than that, you must delete/destroy/throw away everything because what you find is so horribly broken, bashed up or beyond your character that he cant use it and no one wants your left over junk.

Do NOT use ammo caches in the field, they are trapped and are there as a decoy by the aliens, you have to return to base camp.

You do NOT get a vehicle, gas is far too precious and expensive. Its' used for hospitals and a few factories making food and ammunition and something as loud as a car attracts attention from enemies. You must walk everywhere.

When you die, you must resurrect back at base and if you cant resurrect directly to base, you have to resurrect at the extraction point and walk to base, where you will log-out for 1-31 days, determined by the method of your demise. If you are blown apart, 31 days. If you were simply shot by that random raider with a pistol, that's easier to fix, 1 day and everything between on a sliding scale of severity.

Because the game does not implement food, water, sleep, or other needs, you are on the honor system to simulate this. Every 6-8 hours of activity(combat, walking, etc) you have to stop for 1 hour and log out. You must log out after 16 hours accumulated play time for 8 hours to simulate sleep.


Every, single, one of you, can make this, or any game as "challenging" as you like, but you never do, never. I've watched this cycle repeat, in every game, where things are decried as "too easy", not "painful enough", and never once has any of you taken it upon yourself to actually, you know, MAKE IT A CHALLENGE.

Wonder why that is.....Perhaps.....You aren't really looking for one? You need to feel punished for using time for leisure activity? There has to be some kind of self-loathing because you don't toil, every minute you are awake?

Whatever the case is, I'm pretty confident this particular challenge won't be met either, no, they never are.

Want it harder? Won't take it on yourself to make it so? Seems like a pretty hollow request.


(Waits for attack response saying the equivalent of something along the lines of "but, erm, nuh uh!!! I never said dat! I just want, erm, well, I dunno what I want, but I want moar hardness!").

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 02:07 PM
Every game you play, every single one, is pre-determined. If you play long enough, you get to the credits, see the cinematic, and your character saves the day, gets the Cheetos, eats the cookie and rides off on a golden pony shooting rainbows out of its tail. The outcome as you say, was decided. It was decided before you even bought the box in the store, downloaded it from steam, or watched the video of the trailer online. You are partaking in a developers' idea of an entertaining experience, and it very much is already decided as you put it.

lHyW6Gp6UE8

You're telling me everyone, everywhere with enough time invested, could beat that? I highly doubt it. Granted, a Touhou game on Lunatic is an extreme...but so is saying every single game is predetermined and can be completed by anyone. You could argue most games are predetermined since they're simple - and you'd be right.


Oh? Are we now at this "extreme"? Define "loseable", please.

http://static.mubasher.info/File.Story_Image/2586670.jpg

Of course there are continue options. A game that is loseable entails you can actually....LOSE. Not save all of your progress to the point where, if you screw up, there are next to zero repercussions for it. For example - setting you back to the point of having to redo a mission I'd consider losing/failing the mission.

As it stands, Defiance is the equivalent of playing a version Mario Bros. where you fall in a hole and, instead of overcoming that pitfall by redoing the level, you continue right before it. Every time you fall in the hole, the hole loses a little HP. (Boss health) If you fall in the hole enough times/hole HP hits zero Lakitu swoops down and carries you over.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/315/7/8/minecraft_pixel_art_series___lakitu_by_lonesilverw ind-d4fuw7g.jpg

All glory to LAKITU. I reference him whenever I can, because I just love saying Lakitu.


Further, some of the most successful games of all time in gaming history have been "casual" or "indie" games where there is no possible way to "win" OR "lose", you play to relax, entertain, and dare I say, laugh or have fun.

Sure there are. Myst, for example, is one of my favorite games. Is this a single player exploration/puzzle solving game/social simulator game? No...it's a third person shooter with MMO elements tacked on and a marketing gimmick. It has leaderboards which makes one think it might even aim to be a competitive shooter -which usually mean someone WINS and someone LOSES. (Or multiple people, if on teams.) In PvP, that applies...it only applies in PvE during Arkfalls, but even then everyone wins regardless of score.


So....How is this different from any other mmo, computer game or

It's unique in that it's a third person shooter MMO with a TV show tie in. I'm not sure where you're going with this one.


Hell, I will even throw in something as old as arcade games; Just drop in another quarter and BAM, keep going. Given that, your point is......You want to spend more time "working" for something, suffering "significant loss", outside of actual real life job/life? (Yes, I'm doing that horrible thing you hate, asking YOU questions).

I just want to be encouraged by the game not to play like a complete dunce, and overcome the game. Not be pulled through it no matter what I do.


So here comes another question...Define, "significant". I know, those pesky "return questions", the bane of all good discussion and debate. What, to you, would be "significant", and why?

Significant would be having to overcome a mission/challenge - not figuratively hurling your character at it until you "win." You didn't overcome the game, you zerged it. You can not lose...it's just a matter of how many bodies it takes.


Do you need to lose random items from your inventory if you make a "mistake" to feel a sense of well-being about a leisure activity like a computer game?

No. Read above.


Do you need to go backwards in levels to make it feel more like "work" and less like, oh I dunno, "fun", so you can justify the time spent playing?

No. I want to conquer the level. Not be dragged through it by the game no matter how much I screw up.


Would losing say, 30% of scrip, salvage, and reputation at once if you die, be "significant" enough to be able to say "I had to work in my game, therefore my time was well spent in my leisure activity!"

For one, it would make me actually think about what I did before I did it. As I stated in a previous post, it doesn't have to be something as severe as char wipe or loot loss - just something to inspire one not to play like a complete buffoon.



In reading the replies in the thread from those who would like more work, loss, and "significant" struggle in their game; I have a challenge for you, that has not once been taken up, by anyone, in nearly 2 decades of me presenting it.

I come from an era of gaming where the games were all text, Zork and before, where graphics were literally big fat squares glued together at right angles to represent a plane, or a tank, and another big square was a projectile that simply erased the target from the other side of the play field to represent its destruction.

I have played games that deleted you, on the spot, for dying. A great example was called PoMud, a Diku derived MUD. You went to an altar, prayed to the gods to give you but one life, and the code set a flag for your character. If you ever died, no matter the cause, lag, stupidity, cat on the keyboard, etc, the game deleted you, period. The admins could not recover your character by any means. You were gone, you lost, an you were kicked out to the log-in screen for the server.

I was, until the game shut-down, the 2nd highest level person in the game, behind only what I can surmise was a cyborg of a human with some kind of magic ESP power allowing him to evade death. I died, re-started probably a hundred times over the course of the servers life and every time, the first thing I did was go pray at that altar. Over and over and over.

I have lived/breathed and left these games to the dustbin of history, that become work instead of play and I am pretty sure not a single one of you will do this, you're not from my generation, where games WERE work.

Each and every one of you has the ability to make this, and any other game, as difficult as you want it, without forcing your own personal need, or desire for work, struggle or pain on anyone else. Its quite simple really, and quite fun if you are really looking for challenge, but, I don't think you are, but, hey, here goes.
For defiance :

Get a pistol, I'll even make it easy for you, ANY pistol. Purple, blue, orange, anything, with any bonuses.

Use this to EXCLUSION. You are allowed to sell only every fifth item you find, and salvage every 10th. Other than that, you must delete/destroy/throw away everything because what you find is so horribly broken, bashed up or beyond your character that he cant use it and no one wants your left over junk.

Do NOT use ammo caches in the field, they are trapped and are there as a decoy by the aliens, you have to return to base camp.

You do NOT get a vehicle, gas is far too precious and expensive. Its' used for hospitals and a few factories making food and ammunition and something as loud as a car attracts attention from enemies. You must walk everywhere.

When you die, you must resurrect back at base and if you cant resurrect directly to base, you have to resurrect at the extraction point and walk to base, where you will log-out for 1-31 days, determined by the method of your demise. If you are blown apart, 31 days. If you were simply shot by that random raider with a pistol, that's easier to fix, 1 day and everything between on a sliding scale of severity.

Because the game does not implement food, water, sleep, or other needs, you are on the honor system to simulate this. Every 6-8 hours of activity(combat, walking, etc) you have to stop for 1 hour and log out. You must log out after 16 hours accumulated play time for 8 hours to simulate sleep.

Every, single, one of you, can make this, or any game as "challenging" as you like, but you never do, never. I've watched this cycle repeat, in every game, where things are decried as "too easy", not "painful enough", and never once has any of you taken it upon yourself to actually, you know, MAKE IT A CHALLENGE.

And there it is. Self imposed challenges that have nothing to do with how the game presents itself. Read the bottom of my previous post in parenthesis. I read your entire post, you could at least extend the same courtesy before writing half a page comprised of a poor argument which I already said is all self-imposed and not offered by the game itself.


Wonder why that is.....Perhaps.....You aren't really looking for one? You need to feel punished for using time for leisure activity? There has to be some kind of self-loathing because you don't toil, every minute you are awake?

Whatever the case is, I'm pretty confident this particular challenge won't be met either, no, they never are.

Want it harder? Won't take it on yourself to make it so? Seems like a pretty hollow request.

Yes - I do wish the game were more difficult. I do not wish I had to figuratively tie my hands to make it that way. No, I am not a masochist. I'm more of a sadist.


[ (Waits for attack response saying the equivalent of something along the lines of "but, erm, nuh uh!!! I never said dat! I just want, erm, well, I dunno what I want, but I want moar hardness!").

Yes. I did say all of that, and I stand by it. I'll give you props for actually making a detailed argument against it unlike 9/10 people. Although the meat of your post delved in to what I said not to bother trying to argue - creating personal challenges unrelated to what the game offers as is. At least you stayed away from the "go play this then" category.

Goes To Show
04-03-2013, 02:15 PM
By defining yourself as a sadist, you tip your hand to your true desire...

not suffering and penalty for yourself... but suffering and penalty for others, whom you define as lesser than yourself.

Game publishers like Trion, were they to cater to you and sadists like you, would alienate a very high percentage of the player base who buy and play games to have fun and relax, not to suffer under the whim of another. Bad business model.

MrLostAlex
04-03-2013, 02:15 PM
No thanks.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 02:30 PM
By defining yourself as a sadist, you tip your hand to your true desire...

It was a joke. I don't literally get pleasure from physically or mentally abusing people.

Good lord. -_- COME ON, people. Context.

I'm not a masochist, either. I don't tell my girlfriend to tie me up and crack me with a whip. She does that anyway. That was another joke, by the way. But seriously just ignore the shrill cries coming from downstairs.

FourEyes
04-03-2013, 02:49 PM
I'm curious as to why nobody can refute my claim with substance.

...

Currently I'm just outside the tutorial area and not playing/progressing

Hey guys the game just taught me how to play why isn't it punishing me??????????

Nobody's bothered giving you anything substantial because you've not put in any progression. It's already been pointed out the game gets harder, so the sort of death penalties you're rabbling on about would be annoying - not challenging - when the more intelligent and deadlier enemies come into play.

You're complaining about something you haven't even scratched the surface with.

Coraline
04-03-2013, 02:52 PM
I hate the I use to play X game and it had X feature. This game should have that feature.

Honestly if you loved that feature so much go play the game that has it.
Dying in Defiance is like dying in Borderlands. You lose some credits and that is quite alright with me.
I'm not trying to play 10 hours die and lose my xp gain or delevel, Sorry. Go play a game with that or some hardcore mode where you die forever.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 03:04 PM
And there it is. Self imposed challenges that have nothing to do with how the game presents itself. Read the bottom of my previous post in parenthesis. I read your entire post, you could at least extend the same courtesy before writing half a page comprised of a poor argument which I already said is all self-imposed and not offered by the game itself.


Let me fix that for you :

I cant be bothered to challenge myself, because that challenge, the most basic of all, is simply tooooo challenging for me.

You have the power, -in- the game, to make this as hard or painful as you like, but, you don't.

You arent forced to sell everything you find, no, thats a choice. One you do not have to make. Challenge your wallet, sell only every 5th item.

You arent forced into a vehicle, nope, you have to press that nifty call vehicle key. Challenge your endurance and never use one.

You arent required to resupply in the field, you have to manually run your little character over those ammo crates. Thats a choice. One you make repeatedly. Stop making that choice, challenge your aim, your tactics.

Yes, they are self-imposed, and you fail to even rise to THAT challenge?

So, you need someone else, to force something on you, for it to be a challenge? Interesting. Flawed. Hollow.



No. I want to conquer the level. Not be dragged through it my the game pulling me through it no matter how much I screw up.


Clearly, you do not, because you can't even be bothered to take initiative and make it as much of a challenge as you want. You need to be spoon fed that struggle or perceived difficulty. Handed a rule-book that prevents you from doing XYZ.

Want to conquer it? Take my challenge; But, I know you and those like you, you never do.

Taking personal responsibility for the ease or difficulty of things requires actual initiative, action; Things you are un-willing to do.

The most basic of all challenges, one you create; And you can't even "conquer" that one.

But, you are perfectly happy for everyone else to be forced into your mold of difficulty, struggle, challenge, from which there is no alternative for them.


No, I read your post, and like all of those before you; The unwilling. The unable. The "do it for me"'s. Knew exactly where you would go with it.


If you can't even challenge yourself, what does that say for all of this "but i need struggle! strife! work!" rhetoric.....

Let me know how the pistol, log-out on death challenge goes....It'll be waiting for you anyyyy time you like.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:05 PM
Nobody's bothered giving you anything substantial because you've not put in any progression. It's already been pointed out the game gets harder, so the sort of death penalties you're rabbling on about would be annoying - not challenging - when the more intelligent and deadlier enemies come into play.

You're complaining about something you haven't even scratched the surface with.

If you read a whopping six small paragraphs, the furthest I've been is roughly the halfway point if not a bit further in to it. Currently, my character is outside the tutorial area.

Haven't scratched the surface with 3/5 of the game? Alright, I'll bite. What game mechanics suddenly change in San Fran?

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:06 PM
Honestly if you loved that feature so much go play the game that has it.


There's the other one.

FourEyes
04-03-2013, 03:09 PM
If you read a whopping six small paragraphs, the furthest I've been is roughly the halfway point if not a bit further in to it. Currently, my character is outside the tutorial area.

Haven't scratched the surface with 3/5 of the game? Alright, I'll bite. What game mechanics suddenly change in San Fran?

Enemy AI, how their attacks hit harder, the way they coordinate, etc. Great you're God King of the games, that's wonderful. Not everyone is - use your soap box and anger for something that's actually important in life.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:11 PM
Let me know how the pistol, log-out on death challenge goes....It'll be waiting for you anyyyy time you like.

The pistol is arguably the best weapon type in the game with the critical multipliers it offers. Between that and a get out of jail free card (self revive, five minutes at a time.) that's not a difficult challenge.

I've been knocked down several times...I died...once to that bazooka mini boss when I fought him alone scaled for four people. If I avoid situations like that, which isn't hard since I could drop/relog if teammates appear then abandon mid mission it wouldn't be difficult.

I'm humoring you with this because, again, that's a self-imposed challenge by the player, not the Defiance.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Enemy AI, how their attacks hit harder, the way they coordinate, etc. Great you're God King of the games, that's wonderful. Not everyone is - use your soap box and anger for something that's actually important in life.

What does all of that increased attack power, the way they coordinate, etc. matter? The enemies do not reset. Meanwhile, you get a fresh batch of HP, and can keep mindlessly dying until you finish. How is that difficult?

Instead of personal attacks/anger comments, try to stick to the topic. You sound like the subject has gotten under your skin and it really doesn't help whatever case you're trying to make. I don't think I'm God's gift to gaming, but I think many people do and want to feel like the ultimate badass. Because of this, games tend to be simple so that anyone can finish them. I just wish this game hads ubstance/weight to your actions.

It's funny, though. In a span of about five posts already it's nothing but self challenges (not the game) and "go play this". At least Shak came close to composing a good argument with a few things, but fails on his main point of emphasis and chose to stick with it.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 03:15 PM
The pistol is arguably the best weapon type in the game with the critical multipliers it offers. Between that and a get out of jail free card that's not a difficult challenge.

I've been knocked down several times...I died...once to that bazooka mini boss when I fought him alone scaled for four people. If I avoid situations like that, which isn't hard since I could drop/relog if teammates appear then abandon mid mission it wouldn't be difficult.

Again, artificial challenge from the player, not the game.

Again, you can't even challenge yourself.....No, you don't want challenge, because you fail to take a basic one, a simple one, one that requires no changes, no patches, nothing.....Only requires action on your part, which you simply won't take. A choice, to NOT be challenged.

It has to come at the expense of others, for your brand of gameplay, from which THEY have no alternative.

If its so easy, why are you not taking the challenge? Too hard? Too much of one? Unable to conquer it?

I too have a wish. That the folks who claim they need/want/must have more difficulty, would actually man up and you know, do something about it for themselves; Instead of having to be spoon-fed things, even their challenges, which is pretty funny and ironic. "I want challenge, but won't challenge myself", pretty funny actually.

Still waiting.

FourEyes
04-03-2013, 03:16 PM
You sound like the angry one. Instead of personal attacks/anger comments, try to stick to the topic.


lol.

And no, you're right, the enemies don't reset. But if you're dying enough to notice that then you're going to be paying fairly heavy scrip costs. You don't like that, great. Others do - stop making yourself out as some sort of victim because you're getting called out on your passive-aggressive posting style.

Goes To Show
04-03-2013, 03:22 PM
The real challenge? Finding enough strong salve to soothe the ginormous wind-burned e-peen some folks have to carry and swing in the breeze with wild abandon.

My awe has no bounds... really.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:27 PM
"I want challenge, but won't challenge myself", pretty funny actually.
Still waiting.

You make it seem as if I've never challenged myself in a video game.

A recent example:

I've finished Dark Souls on the lowest level on multiple run throughs. Did I have to? No...the game offered a challenge as is. I did it because I felt like it. Dark Souls was a good enough game that I invested the time and effort to do something like that.

On the first run through, though? Hell no! If you ran with reckless abandon you got roflstomped. That was all on the part of the game.

Dark Souls had a semblance of replay value that, when you finished the game, you looked to yourself for creative ways to do it again.

Does Defiance fit that bill for me? Not really. I wouldn't enjoy it, so why do it? I see it as a different way to spend time with my girl and tie in to the TV show. Gameplay wise there isn't enough depth for it - it would just feel like a repetitious grind. It's not hard power leveling to 1000 Ego and then pummeling the game, just incredibly boring.



Instead of having to be spoon-fed things...

The irony in this is hilarious. Thank you for that.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:31 PM
And no, you're right, the enemies don't reset. But if you're dying enough to notice that then you're going to be paying fairly heavy scrip costs.

Something of substance! Hallelujah! You were doing so well until you kept on going with the attacks.

Come on, folks...try to be more like Shakesh.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:32 PM
The real challenge? Finding enough strong salve to soothe the ginormous wind-burned e-peen some folks have to carry and swing in the breeze with wild abandon.

My awe has no bounds... really.

Thanks for contributing.

ShrykeAbysmal
04-03-2013, 03:34 PM
I am amazed at how many negative comments came from this post. Turn the game off, delete character. Basically the brats are getting defensive when their fun game is threatened. How dare someone suggest a game or any situation where there are consequences to one's actions. They just want to win win win and have fun. Being challenged in any way is just too tough.

Just not that simple.

There is no standard base of player skill or experience in online play. You get on as an adult with a job and/or family and play for a reasonable amount of time and get faced with a server full of unemployed losers who drop their entire state check on their broadband account and DLC purchases coupled with kids spending 16 hours a day playing and lax camping and griefing rules, and next thing you know you're creating a new character every 10 minutes, watching your XP count down like a digital stopwatch, and/or getting a curiously long look at a map consisting entirely of the room with the respawn point.

You interested in spending $60-$149 for that plus bandwidth and DLC costs? I guess that makes one of us, which is why this is the first multi player experience I've involved myself in since Unreal Tournament and I'm not exactly trying to make it a trend after this one.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:41 PM
You get on as an adult with a job and/or family and play for a reasonable amount of time and get faced with a server full of unemployed losers who drop their entire state check on their broadband account and DLC purchases coupled with kids spending 16 hours a day playing and lax camping and griefing rules, and next thing you know you're creating a new character every 10 minutes, watching your XP count down like a digital stopwatch, and/or getting a curiously long look at a map consisting entirely of the room with the respawn point.

Fair points, but you're talking about extremes. It would be preferable if folks realized we're at the other side of the extreme scale as it is.

It doesn't have to be nut-crushingly punishing, just offer some incentive to play well and moderately prohibit progression until you earn it. Earning progress doesn't have to be hard, but it shouldn't require the IQ of a gnat to be achievable.

Right now, you can't...not....win. (Double negative.) PvP aside, of course. Even then I'm sure the losing side "wins" xp and such. Again, it's impossible to lose.

dreadburn
04-03-2013, 03:46 PM
I am amazed at how many negative comments came from this post. Turn the game off, delete character. Basically the brats are getting defensive when their fun game is threatened. How dare someone suggest a game or any situation where there are consequences to one's actions. They just want to win win win and have fun. Being challenged in any way is just too tough.

Excuse me? Are you calling me a brat? Just to copy from what the op wrote

"I would like it if dying in game was something to be feared."

Now if there was perma death , wouldn't that be something to be feared?

I am not getting defensive , I am actually looking forward to a game that is actually challenging. I love the radio station mission's.
The bit where you have to protect Cass is bloody awesome. I have died repeatedly there.

Anyway, I think what you have taken what I wrote the wrong way. I am actually agreeing with the OP, currently at my ego level dying takes off a bit of scrip. Great is that it. Maybe I went a bit far with saying perma death for the character but I certainly don't have anything against making death cost me more , be it XP scrip etc.(Btw only ego 170ish so scrip % may get worse like other's have mentioned.)

Next time mate don't try and be offensive by calling someone a


brat

because by the tone of your post you actually sound a bit like one to ;)

Foxholenorman
04-03-2013, 03:46 PM
You do realize, OP, that there are ... CHALLENGES ... in this game? Like those little icons EVERYWHERE that CHALLENGE you to do various tasks, and if you do them poorly you don't get anything. There are driving challenges! Shooting challenges! Challenges where you log online to make silly posts about how games marketed to the masses aren't hard enough for you, the only one who cares about their difficulty. Wait that wasn't one. Anyway. Would you be okay with WoW level challenge, where you get booted out of the instance and then you have to pay money to fix your gear? Or do you literally want us to go back to the days of UO and crawl around slowly trying not to get ganked so we don't have to corpse-run?

I think the problem you have is with the VERY basis of this game and you probably should quit playing it after getting your money's worth.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 03:56 PM
" I am not getting defensive , I am actually looking forward to a game that is actually challenging. I love the radio station mission's. The bit where you have to protect Cass is bloody awesome. I have died repeatedly there.

First off, you're right in that there is no need for name calling. Usually it's the sign of a failed argument as they fail to back up what they say.

On to the subject, what did you find difficult about protecting Cass at the Radio Tower? You don't actually have to protect her - she can not die. She can be knocked down, but she can't die.

The enemies, while numerous, are limited. You, however, can keep returning from where you died and your progress does not reset. I'm not saying you suck, I'm asking how that is difficult.

I do not understand how people find things like this challenging. I wish I did, but I don't. I still haven't received a concise response without flaming or otherwise derogatory comments involved. I'm hoping you're the person mature enough to provide some insight without going in to hyper defensive mode. If you're that person, I'll give you a cake.

dreadburn
04-03-2013, 04:01 PM
On to the subject, what did you find difficult about protecting Cass at the Radio Tower? You don't actually have to protect her - she can not die. She can be knocked down, but she can't die.

The enemies, while numerous, are limited. You, however, can keep returning from where you died and your progress does not reset. I'm not saying you suck, I'm asking how that is difficult. I literally do not understand how people find things like this challenging, I wish I did, but I don't.

Yeah I know she cannot die, the problem I had was going kamikaze with my lmg , getting my arse kicked pretty hard. Extracting just out side , running back in repeat. It's because at that time the tiny bit of scrip being taken for death wasn't really enough of a dis-incentive ( is that a word? ) to actually try and be careful about it. Other than the time invested.

edit: it was easier when I was cloak in beta and Decoy on my first character. But over charge is soo much more fun I had to try it that way.


I'm not saying you suck, I'm asking how that is difficult. I literally do not understand how people find things like this challenging, I wish I did, but I don't.

Haha ;) I probably do suck, but it isn't difficult. Now if Cass could die and the mission was failed when she did , that would be a completely different story.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:03 PM
Yeah I know she cannot die, the problem I had was going kamikaze with my lmg , getting my arse kicked pretty hard. Extracting just out side , running back in repeat. It's because at that time the tiny bit of scrip being taken for death wasn't really enough of a dis-incentive ( is that a word? ) to actually try and be careful about it. Other than the time invested.

Ok. What I gather is that you find SOME difficulty in the fact that you got killed, and a slight time sink, but don't feel that it's enough?

PS: THANK YOU! In the name of all that is holy THANK YOU for responding reasonably. As promised, here you go:
http://brotherbangun.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/spiderman-cake-ideas-05.jpg

Just...uh..substitute William age 4 for your name and age of choice. >_>

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 04:07 PM
You make it seem as if I've never challenged myself in a video game.

A recent example:

I've finished Dark Souls on the lowest level on multiple run throughs. Did I have to? No...the game offered a challenge as is. I did it because I felt like it. Dark Souls was a good enough game that I invested the time and effort to do something like that.

On the first run through, though? Hell no! If you ran with reckless abandon you got roflstomped. That was all on the part of the game.

Dark Souls had a semblance of replay value that, when you finished the game, you looked to yourself for creative ways to do it again.

Does Defiance fit that bill for me? Not really. I wouldn't enjoy it, so why do it? I see it as a different way to spend time with my girl and tie in to the TV show. Gameplay wise there isn't enough depth for it - it would just feel like a repetitious grind. It's not hard power leveling to 1000 Ego and then pummeling the game, just incredibly boring.



The irony in this is hilarious. Thank you for that.

Irony that you missed.

Here, begging for a "challenge" but refusing to do it for yourself.

Now you're just devolving into "but, but, but, but, I cannnnnnnt!". Not enough depth? Oh? Another trait lost on subsquent generations, an imagination. So not only can you not rise to the challenge, you cant even exercise your imagination to flesh out why that challenge exists....Yes, the irony was lost on you, entirely.

I gave you every single tool you need to create challenge, I even gave you a set of rules to play by, did that work for you. I created the challenge for you, brought it by on a silver platter, and you can't even take one as simple as that.

Still can't rise to it, still going around the maypole, still side-stepping and unable to rise to the challenge, still needed it to be handed to you while punishing everyone else with your own personal vision of challenge.

No, instead here you are, failing at the most fundamental challenge of all, posting about how much of a challenge you need, while unable to take such a simple, pre-defined one for you.

Another in the long line of those who fail, you are welcome among their ranks.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:14 PM
Haha ;) I probably do suck, but it isn't difficult. Now if Cass could die and the mission was failed when she did , that would be a completely different story.

You do not suck. For what you just said I could brofist you after reading some of the replies in this thread.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:15 PM
I gave you every single tool you need to create challenge, I even gave you a set of rules to play by, did that work for you. I created the challenge for you, brought it by on a silver platter, and you can't even take one as simple as that.

You are not Defiance.

A self-imposed rule set was one of two things I said don't bother with from the get go, yet you continue to use it as your main point of emphasis.

Now you're trying to hide that by calling it something else. You've cleverly moved to claiming I should now follow your ruleset. All made up and what not with the outlines drawn. You, like myself, are not the game. I would be taking your rule set and instilling it on myself. That is still a self-imposed rule set.

Then, again, come the personal insults, again the sign of a failed argument. You say I fail, yet take one of two things I said not to bother with and try to build a case around it? The irony is there, and it's in abundance.

Once more - I give you props for trying but please just stop.

dreadburn
04-03-2013, 04:21 PM
Ok. What I gather is that you find SOME difficulty in the fact that you got killed, and a slight time sink, but don't feel that it's enough?

It really wasn't enough of a dis-incentive ( it's now my word of the day and will try to get in all my posts ;) ) to actually modify my game playing style at that early stage in the game.

My first character when game went live( decided he didn't look right and started again ), I did it as Decoy and with shotgun, and it was pretty easy. In beta i did it as cloak and sniper/pistol and found it fairly difficult but manageable, but for some reason with the lmg/sniper and overcharge I have done crap repeatedly on it.

Foxholenorman
04-03-2013, 04:21 PM
You are not Defiance.

A self-impose rule set is was one of two things I said don't bother with from the get go, yet you continue to use it as your main point of emphasis. Incredible.

What do you hope to accomplish with this thread, then? Do you want them to add a "hardcore mode" that you can toggle so you are punished severely when you die? Or are you just venting? Because you are in the vast minority here. I don't personally want to play the game you're dreaming up. I paid for the game they made and the game I knew I'd have fun with between work and girlfriend time. It just seems like you don't enjoy the very base game, so why did you buy it? I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying. I get where you're coming from. About fifteen years ago when I was in high school I would have enjoyed that too. But not now.

Goes To Show
04-03-2013, 04:25 PM
It must be rough to be "above the curve" when it comes to skill in a video game. Wretched are those who must "settle" for games designed for people of average skill.

The reality is that mass-market, big-budget games are probably never or nearly never going to be designed for the "elite." The elite, in order to be challenged, will have to either gravitate toward niche games, or resolve themselves to be satisfied with a self-imposed ruleset that increases challenge.

On the bright side, the elite can garner lots of attention by crowing about their skill, and boredom with games that are pretty well tailored to deliver adequate challenge and reward for the "average" player. So, there's that.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 04:29 PM
You are not Defiance.

A self-imposed rule set was one of two things I said don't bother with from the get go, yet you continue to use it as your main point of emphasis. Incredible.

Now you're claiming I should follow YOUR ruleset. All made up and what not with the outlines drawn, but you're not the game. I would be taking your rule set and instilling it on myself. That's still a self-imposed rule set.

Again, I give you props for trying but please just stop.

Challenge: FAILED.

So, you can't challenge yourself. Can't take a challenge from anyone else. And need to be spoon-fed it while at the same time, ensuring everyone else has to adhere to YOUR vision of challenge.

Yes, incredible indeed.

You still side-step it, though the breadcrumbs are there for you in several posts : Your version of challenge would leave the rest of the paying, playing population WITH NO ALTERNATIVE.

They can't turn it down. They cant turn it off. They can't NOT be forced to toil away like this is work.

But, you have the power to change the difficulty at any moment, but refuse to do so, in a manner that would not affect others.

Yes, I do continue on that path because your sad attempt at a set of parameters is akin to asking the question :

"when did you stop beating your wife".

The person cant say "never", oh? you still beat her?
The person can't say "I never beat her", I didnt ask you that, I asked when you stopped.
The person can't say "insert day X", oh, so you DID beat her.

In debate, thats called a contradictory premise and is a sophomoric construct at best, so yes, it was summarily ignored.

Using your logic : What do you think your deficiency is with rising to a challenge?

Foxholenorman
04-03-2013, 04:35 PM
Please rename your username to "Shakesh Sundae Bar"... Because Moose just got SERVED.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:36 PM
Do you want them to add a "hardcore mode" that you can toggle so you are punished severely when you die? Or are you just venting? Because you are in the vast minority here. I don't personally want to play the game you're dreaming up. I paid for the game they made and the game I knew I'd have fun with between work and girlfriend time. It just seems like you don't enjoy the very base game, so why did you buy it? I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying. I get where you're coming from. About fifteen years ago when I was in high school I would have enjoyed that too. But not now.


What do you hope to accomplish with this thread, then?
Intelligent conversation.


It just seems like you don't enjoy the very base game, so why did you buy it?

I do enjoy the base game, I just wish you had more weight to your actions and weren't encouraged to play like a dolt. I enjoy overcoming whatever the game (not myself, or anyone else) can throw at me. I also bought it since there isn't much else out there, and it gives my girlfriend and I something to play together. (Digitally, at least. Giggity.) Also I see supporting the game as supporting the show, and I want it to succeed.




About fifteen years ago when I was in high school I would have enjoyed that too. But not now.

You were doing pretty well. Starting Monday I'll be working roughly 60 hours a week, and play Defiance maybe a couple hours on Tues, Wed, and Fri. That's about it. If you consider the sole qualification to be time played, I'm far from hardcore. I used to be when I was also in high school, but not any more. Time wise I'm fairly casual - I just like my time spent playing to be overcoming the game, not the game giving me a boot in the butt all the way to the end.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7a63q9P1rBM/TaLTK49guOI/AAAAAAAACjE/PolO6teyGhU/s1600/wipeout-the-motivator-300x202.jpg

NalkorRN
04-03-2013, 04:36 PM
Death penalty was just one of the many features in older mmos to slow you down and create sub time. I would hate to see that and stupid repair system. Keep it fun!
You need to go further back, like, Pre-SoL EQ1, when it was still just RoK and SoV. Die and run back to your corpse, naked. Did you die on the other end of the continent and forget to bind your soul (a manual thing at the time, not like how it's automatic here) near the area? Congrats, you're on the other end of a very huge continent with absolutely zero gear on you, you lost some XP and possibly de-leveled. Did you die deep in a hard dungeon? I hope you're a Monk with Feign Death or have a group of very nice friends willing to drag you along so you can get your corpse and gear back before it decays in one week's time, taking the gear with it. Oh what's that, you're not a monk with feign death and your friends are unwilling to drag you along a hard dungeon for a corpse run, kiss all that gear (and likely your character as well) goodbye permanently.

Pre-SoL/PoP EQ1 had a simple creed to it: Get good or leave. This game's death penalty, no matter how harsh it can get, doesn't really engender that kind of mentality.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:41 PM
You still side-step it, though the breadcrumbs are there for you in several posts : Your version of challenge would leave the rest of the paying, playing population WITH NO ALTERNATIVE.

You talk of sidestepping, yet when your argument goes south you go from talking about making up rules myself and change your premise to why I should use rules you create.


Challenge: FAILED.

What do you think your deficiency is with rising to a challenge?

As I've already told you, I have no interest in anything you or I provide when it comes to this game. The only challenge I care about comes from Defiance - the game itself.

I should make a correction - I do care about challenges others set for me. Namely, the people who make the video game. That in itself is rising to a challenge - and in this case it is minimal. I've risen to that challenge already, along with every single game I've ever played. Your point is moot.


Your version of challenge would leave the rest of the paying, playing population WITH NO ALTERNATIVE.

Learn from one's mistakes? Adapt? Heaven forbid be encouraged to talk and team up in an MMO. There are plenty of alternatives.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 04:51 PM
As I've already told you, I have no interest in anything you or I provide when it comes to this game. The only challenge I care about comes from Defiance.

Let me fix that for you as well :

"The only challenge i care about comes at the expense of others and their ability to enjoy or play the game because I'm unable and unwilling to do it for myself".


Finally, let me then go on to break apart that other contradictory premise that I have to this point, also ignored :

If you find not enough "challenge" here; And the critical measure of a game for you is work, toil, strife, struggle and pain; Why do you not move on to more painful pastures?

That challenge too hard as well?

I'm seeing a pattern here.......

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:51 PM
Please rename your username to "Shakesh Sundae Bar"... Because Moose just got SERVED.

Aaaaand again no substance.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 04:52 PM
Why do you not move on to more painful pastures?

And there it is. Again.

I enjoy the game, and want it to be more than what it is. Though one of the major factors in my gaming choice, difficulty it is not the sole one. Nor is it, alone, the most important. However, based on the criteria I use toward judging a game - it is the category in which it is Defiance most severely lacking.

Foxholenorman
04-03-2013, 04:54 PM
Aaaaand again no substance.

Okay so. Fine.

How about they go with the carrot instead of the stick? You get super extra bonuses if you complete certain tasks without dying. That'd be more of an incentive for me to play the game than "oh man I died, I guess it's time to never play the game again because of what just happened to my character."

Foxholenorman
04-03-2013, 04:59 PM
Also, you have this major issue that sometimes your life depends on the actions of others, being that it's an online game. So in your wild and wacky world of wonderdeath, should I be happy to be penalized for other people not doing their jobs during an instance? I deal with taking the blame for other peoples' shoddy work all the time in my profession, and I go to games to get away from that.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:00 PM
Okay so. Fine.

How about they go with the carrot instead of the stick? You get super extra bonuses if you complete certain tasks without dying. That'd be more of an incentive for me to play the game than "oh man I died, I guess it's time to never play the game again because of what just happened to my character."


I have no problem with the carrot on the stick method/instilling a system that rewards playing well.

Beyond that, I'm not saying we need permadeath, loot loss, etc. People seem to love putting words in my mouth or "fixing that" for me, but I've stated several times I don't think it needs to be extreme like those would be. Just something to offset mindless zerging.

Goes To Show
04-03-2013, 05:01 PM
Okay so. Fine.

How about they go with the carrot instead of the stick? You get super extra bonuses if you complete certain tasks without dying. That'd be more of an incentive for me to play the game than "oh man I died, I guess it's time to never play the game again because of what just happened to my character."

Bravo. Designers can implement this without chasing off 99% of their clients.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:03 PM
Also, you have this major issue that sometimes your life depends on the actions of others, being that it's an online game. So in your wild and wacky world of wonderdeath, should I be happy to be penalized for other people not doing their jobs during an instance? I deal with taking the blame for other peoples' shoddy work all the time in my profession, and I go to games to get away from that.

And again, people love to keep taking what I post and "fixing that for me" instead of responding to what I say. I don't think the game needs to be relentlessly difficult for others. I don't care if it is, but I don't advocate that it should be. I want it to offer a significant challenge, for myself or others, should we choose to do so. Not challenges from me, not challenges from you or anyone else.

An example would be end game dungeons or arkfalls with no self rez, healing is actually important, etc. Not saying the game can't stay as it is, but give us an option to pursue options that require some semblance of thought and, potentially, team work.

Katosu
04-03-2013, 05:07 PM
I think for the open/world map, or solo missions, it's a great idea to keep the Revive in. It currently allows more people to solo, although at a cost if they do not exercise caution. At the same time, have you tried running Co-Op missions yet?

I think during boss fights, they disable the Revive mechanic to add additional challenge. Perhaps you would enjoy doing Co-Op missions more than Open World Questing/Missions? They do seem rather well-balanced for a group, and it's a lot of fun when you have a great team of people who work together. :)

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:10 PM
I think during boss fights, they disable the Revive mechanic to add additional challenge. Perhaps you would enjoy doing Co-Op missions more than Open World Questing/Missions? They do seem rather well-balanced for a group, and it's a lot of fun when you have a great team of people who work together. :)

I've done four or five of the coop maps, but they didn't seem particularly difficult. I would imagine the zerg effect still applies - in that even if you wipe the instance does not reset. If I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. I hope I am.

ebonrain
04-03-2013, 05:10 PM
i never quite understand the .. please make the game harder for every one .. i liek harder games . really if u want more a penalty for dieign .. make one up delete one of your weapons every tiem you die . or punch your self in the balls .. why would you want to make it harder for other people , when you have the power to make it as hard as you like any time you want ?


heres some suggestions .. don be locked into waht the game gives you for dieing .. chose your own

"An example would be end game dungeons or arkfalls with no self rez, healing is actually important, etc. Not saying the game can't stay as it is, but give us an option to pursue options that require some semblance of thought and, potentially, team work. "

dont take the self rez .. quit out and start the mission over start a club or a guild where every one agrees thats what they want and do it

heres other options :

die - force yoru self not to play for an hour or a day ?
die - delete your favorite weapon
die - physcialy punch your self in the balls
die - smash your computer with a hammer

if you play with like minded people , feel free to get them invoved in the harsher deathpenality club
death penatlys are somethign you have th epower to controll for you own game any time you want .. because you like harsh penaltys dosent mean other peopel do .so play it how you want to you have as much controll over the deathpenalty for your self as you want .

LadyChaos
04-03-2013, 05:11 PM
I just ran through a quest event where the player who happened upon it with me, died 3 times during it. I thought it was a fair scenario. He reset and had to come back missing xxx amount of time each death. I still gave him a greet and cheer for the teamwork and was happy to have company for the fight. I felt accomplished for completing it without death and thought nothing less of the other player at all. Making stuff harder just to make harder reduces a server pop by the discouraging the casual players.

IMO pick a side are you looking to make it more MMO or more Solo than it's current state. The more penalty towards the casual and new players we make stuff like this, the more of a solo game it will become.

I think this system is fair enough to hardcore who can do it without a death, and those who might still be learning or having a bad day.

IMO some of the requests to make the death system harder are not so much to balance a system but to point out that it's "easy" for them. If it is easy for you great, it's not for a lot of people who would still like to enjoy the game. It is a very fair compromise.

dreadburn
04-03-2013, 05:13 PM
die - smash your your self in the balls with a hammer

It's a bit extreme really :p

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:14 PM
...make one up delete one of your weapons every tiem you die ....


We're up to... I think five now.

Katosu
04-03-2013, 05:15 PM
I've done four or five of the coop maps, but they didn't seem particularly difficult. I would imagine the zerg effect still applies - in that even if you wipe the instance does not reset. If I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. I hope I am.

While the whole map does not reset, if you whipe during a boss fight the boss will reset (Complete with being forced to re-watch the intro unless people opt to skip.)

I think we've done the same Co-Op maps, so I won't comment beyond that. :) I don't feel like it was very zerg, except for the fact that I charged in on each one while I had 3 people who stayed back with covering fire most of the time.

What's your playstyle like? Are you the type to stay back and snipe? Maybe try to mix it up a little for yourself. Playing in the thick of things is my way of making it a challenge.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:18 PM
I just ran through a quest event where the player who happened upon it with me, died 3 times during it. I thought it was a fair scenario. He reset and had to come back missing xxx amount of time each death. I still gave him a greet and cheer for the teamwork and was happy to have company for the fight. I felt accomplished for completing it without death and thought nothing less of the other player at all. Making stuff harder just to make harder reduces a server pop by the discouraging the casual players.

IMO pick a side are you looking to make it more MMO or more Solo than it's current state. The more penalty towards the casual and new players we make stuff like this, the more of a solo game it will become.

I think this system is fair enough to hardcore who can do it without a death, and those who might still be learning or having a bad day.

IMO some of the requests to make the death system harder are not so much to balance a system but to point out that it's "easy" for them. If it is easy for you great, it's not for a lot of people who would still like to enjoy the game. It is a very fair compromise.

You just had to go and post a coherent non insulting response. SHAME on you. I'd give you a cake, but I already gave one to Dreadburn.

I'm not saying make the game hell on earth for inexperienced players, I'm saying give us incentives to play well. This could be in various forms - carrot on the stick as previously mentioned or optional, non main quest content that is a significant leap in difficulty.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 05:19 PM
We're up to... I think five now.

Annnnnnd no substance.

Goes To Show
04-03-2013, 05:20 PM
IMO some of the requests to make the death system harder are not so much to balance a system but to point out that it's "easy" for them.

Bingo! Well-said and oh, so accurate.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:22 PM
While the whole map does not reset, if you whipe during a boss fight the boss will reset (Complete with being forced to re-watch the intro unless people opt to skip.)

Now see folks, THAT is what I was looking for. A clear, concise, response. I'm glad I was wrong about zerging not always being the answer.



I think we've done the same Co-Op maps, so I won't comment beyond that. :) I don't feel like it was very zerg, except for the fact that I charged in on each one while I had 3 people who stayed back with covering fire most of the time.

What's your playstyle like? Are you the type to stay back and snipe? Maybe try to mix it up a little for yourself. Playing in the thick of things is my way of making it a challenge.

Overcharge/full dps. Seems fairly pointless to tank/heal without fear of death, so may as well drop enemies quicker. However, if what you say is right and I have no reason to doubt you or call you a liar, I might rethink that if we get more difficult co-op sessions.

I'm going to run out of cake at this rate. Thank you.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:23 PM
Annnnnnd no substance.

Your argument ran dry, I know. It was dry before you began. I advised you not to try, but you insisted. Again I give you props for trying, even if you did shuffle around your premise quite a bit.

I managed to get the monopoly on your posts, it seems. At least you're interested in the subject.

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 05:25 PM
Your argument ran dry, I know. It was dry before you began.

Yet more lack of substance.

Not surprising, given your inability to take action for yourself.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:28 PM
Yet more lack of substance.

Not surprising, given your inability to take action for yourself.

I got halfway through the game. How is that not taking action/overcoming a challenge no matter how minimal?

So we've gone from self-imposed challenges, to imposing your challenges upon myself, back to taking action upon myself? Pick something and stick with it. I've already shown you that, by progressing in the game, I have taken action upon myself. Where are you going with this?

Katosu
04-03-2013, 05:32 PM
Now see folks, THAT is what I was looking for. A clear, concise, response. I'm glad I was wrong about zerging not always being the answer.



Overcharge/full dps. Seems fairly pointless to tank/heal without fear of death, so may as well drop enemies quicker. However, if what you say is right and I have no reason to doubt you or call you a liar, I might rethink that if we get more difficult co-op sessions.

I'm going to run out of cake at this rate. Thank you.

Yea. It's accurate as far as my experiences go. :P

If you get downed during the boss fights, you won't be Forced to extract once the bar runs out like you usually are when on the field map. You stay in a downed state until everyone is downed, you force extraction (Hold X, locked out), or until someone picks you up. I got downed once on Motherload and sadly no one could get to me before it ran out. I was worried I'd be locked out, but I just stayed in a Downed state.

As for Overcharge/Full DPS, how do you utilize it? Do you use a Sniper to try and maximize the effectiveness of each shot? Do you tend to get up close and personal with the enemy via ShotGuns / SMG's? Or do you play yourself mid-range? That was moreso the style difference I was talking about. I, personally, can only play Long-distance for so long before I get the urge to rip off my shirt and charge into the middle of battle. :P

I'm probably more akin to a tank myself, though. All my talents are Damage Mitigation / HP restoration / Shield Deplete-Damage Reduction skills. Purely survival, really. Decoy helps me out with this by not only giving me a breather if I find myself in a bad situation, but also it helps peel enemies off allies at times (As AI seems to prioritize shooting it.)

Anyways. Glad to offer what little I know at the moment. Still learning all the paces myself and loving it. Can I assume you're at the Golden Gate Bridge as you said you've done 4 of the instances so far?

cypheon
04-03-2013, 05:33 PM
I can't yet pick up the game until payday 2 fridays from now (rent was more important), but, based on moose crying over being allowed to zerg his way through missions and deciding the time spent dead/running back wasn't enough incentive to not die... i'm really not sure i want to play a game populated by such crybabies with more free time than skill...

Shakesh
04-03-2013, 05:36 PM
I got halfway through the game. How is that not taking action/overcoming a challenge no matter how minimal?

So we've gone from self-imposed challenges, to imposing your challenges upon myself, back to taking action upon myself? Pick something and stick with it. I've already shown you that, by progressing in the game, I have taken action upon myself. Where are you going with this?

Nope, just using your own logic. The action you have not taken and are unwilling to take is taking control of the difficulty of the game you play.

No, the premises have not changed, just enjoying your reaction when presented with your own responses.

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:38 PM
Yea. It's accurate as far as my experiences go. :P

If you get downed during the boss fights, you won't be Forced to extract once the bar runs out like you usually are when on the field map. You stay in a downed state until everyone is downed, you force extraction (Hold X, locked out), or until someone picks you up. I got downed once on Motherload and sadly no one could get to me before it ran out. I was worried I'd be locked out, but I just stayed in a Downed state.

If you only knew how much I wanted to hug you.


As for Overcharge/Full DPS, how do you utilize it? Do you use a Sniper to try and maximize the effectiveness of each shot? Do you tend to get up close and personal with the enemy via ShotGuns / SMG's? Or do you play yourself mid-range? That was moreso the style difference I was talking about. I, personally, can only play Long-distance for so long before I get the urge to rip off my shirt and charge into the middle of battle. :P

Usually, pistol or lmg just about shreds everything. I used the first ego point on blur, and activated three points toward "intimidation." (75% more damage VS stunned enemies)

Then, with the scavenger perk unlocked from arkfall rewards - within a couple levels I already have overcharge and can switch to it. (You don't need to go all the way up from blur, saves around three levels.) Mass damage ensues....I haven't heard of anyone else doing this, but there ya go. You'll pretty much destroy Arkfalls and bosses. Also the reload perk for your weapon that is not being used is very, very useful for sustained damage - especially with hard hitting, long reload shotguns.






Anyways. Glad to offer what little I know at the moment. Still learning all the paces myself and loving it. Can I assume you're at the Golden Gate Bridge as you said you've done 4 of the instances so far?

A little bit before, maybe? I erased my character so can't really check. I'm waiting on my girl to finish downloading with her ghetto internet (2 days, YUCK!) so we can go through together. She got a patcher error last night and had to start over. >_<

Moose Of Woe
04-03-2013, 05:39 PM
Nope, just using your own logic. The action you have not taken and are unwilling to take is taking control of the difficulty of the game you play.

There are no difficulty options provided, and I don't want to impose ones on myself not outlined by the game. That's what I've been saying the entire time.

This is a themepark MMO (well, sort of an mmo..different subject) where everything is laid out in front of you. This is not a sandbox like, say, DayZ where it's "here are the keys go figure it out."

Again, where are you going with this?

JHBorden
04-03-2013, 05:39 PM
Walk away from the computer for six hours every single time you die. There we go, instant hardcore death penalty.

LMAO good $hit!

LadyChaos
04-03-2013, 06:02 PM
Please forgive me in advance if this has been posed already:

monetary penalties are very popular as a death deterrent, but IMO they do not deter the very people who call for more death penalty.

There hasn't been an MMO I've played where I didn't begin to make a fortune quickly, and I've never cared even a little about paying death penalties because of it. In SWTOR I covered my guild's death penalties Because of excess cash and it cost more money to repair the better your gear for those that didn't play. I'm not a casual player, I would try to modestly say I'm in the above average category for comparison.

This is an example. The good players who don't die easily, tend to also make more money efficiently. A player who hasn't got the hang of the combat mechanics is likely to not be wealthy in cash either comparatively.

My point on this type of (fiscal) penalty is that the same people tend to not care about the death penalty where the new and advancing or casual players are hit excessively, discouraging them from further play.

MrTexas
04-03-2013, 06:06 PM
what ego level are you? It starts easy - trust me it gets hard and $$ starts flying out the window by the percentage.

this. There are some places where you might die 15 times before completion...you clearly have not faced the Dark MAtter guys yet

ShrykeAbysmal
04-03-2013, 11:14 PM
Fair points, but you're talking about extremes. It would be preferable if folks realized we're at the other side of the extreme scale as it is.

It doesn't have to be nut-crushingly punishing, just offer some incentive to play well and moderately prohibit progression until you earn it. Earning progress doesn't have to be hard, but it shouldn't require the IQ of a gnat to be achievable.

Right now, you can't...not....win. (Double negative.) PvP aside, of course. Even then I'm sure the losing side "wins" xp and such. Again, it's impossible to lose.

Okay on that I'll have to see it (soon as I get finished with the patch crap as I just installed from DVD about 40 minutes ago). I played the game for about 9 hours between the 1st and 3rd beta windows and I can say that, at least at that level of finish, I was pretty much destroying everything I met. A large part of that I owe to having done the 1st person thing since shareware Doom, being a good shooter in RL and going to sniper rifles constantly in UT and Modern Warfare, but a not so insignificant amount also gets chalked up to the game not being geared up difficulty-wise. It's no Bioshock Infinite 1999 Mode - let's put it that way.

I do expect as they go forward with things that challenges will increase, but where you say I'm talking about extremes, in my experience wherever there's been opportunity to either game the system or apply hugely lopsided game time experience in environments where skill levels are not even close to standardized, that's what the reasonably progressing player ends up facing. Dweebs considering frags and eco-monopolies to be on the same level as "real life rock star" or just generally what you expect in return for allowing Satan to deny you girlfriends for eternity. Although I admit there are happy mediums...

Nezumi
04-03-2013, 11:38 PM
Wait, what's this about Overcharge being the only worthwhile Ego power? I've been playing with Cloak from day one, and I've managed some wonderful things with it. Taking excess heat off of me. Sneaking past turrets to take out their generators without firing a shot. Stealthing to interaction objectives in Co-Op missions while the rest of the party distracts the guards. Getting to a good sniping position without taking unnecessary fire, or right behind the enemy for a few quick pistol taps to the head. And it's really handy for getting at the rear critical hit point on Hellbug Warriors -- their mouth gland is only accessible some of the time, but you can always hit them in the tail.

BrutikusIV
04-03-2013, 11:44 PM
An even better one is delete your character each time you die.

And this thread is solved.. Consumer has been 100% guaranteed satisfaction now. Everyone can move on along. Oh wait, He doesn't have it in em to do delete his characters ? OK. GM's you heard the man's request. Randomly delete his characters so he doesn't get bored!

ExpiredLifetime
04-04-2013, 12:00 AM
I agree with there needing to be changes done about dying - especially being able to die and have all of the things that were shooting you not restore any health. I managed to breeze through the entire campaign without ever worrying about what was around the corner, since I knew if I died I could come right back instantly and finish it off.
The only fight I've encountered at all that I could even define as being difficult would be the first phase of the final boss; mostly due to the fact that he's dashing around invulnerable 90% of the time and there's zero cover.

S0DA POPINSKI
04-04-2013, 12:05 AM
I played EQ2 for quite some time and and about 7 years of EQ and I am happy there is no death penalty in Defiance. It sucked back then and it would suck today, no thanks. word. EQ1 was so frustrating at times.

Mysfit
04-04-2013, 12:08 AM
Walk away from the computer for six hours every single time you die. There we go, instant hardcore death penalty.

or better yet every time you die delete that character and start a new one.

Noubito
04-04-2013, 12:08 AM
I'm curious as to why nobody can refute my claim with substance. Simply posting one or two sentence replies asking another question instead of making a case against it. Well, actually I'm not surprised because when there is no evidence to back them people love to detract from the actual subject by asking questions about the person presenting an argument. But, I'll humor you.


No one has to refute anything. You're not making some compelling argument. You're just whining about your personal opinion as if it's fact. It's not. Since other people are fine with what you're complaining about, you don't have any evidence that requires a refute with "substance".

ShrykeAbysmal
04-04-2013, 12:20 AM
Wait, what's this about Overcharge being the only worthwhile Ego power? I've been playing with Cloak from day one, and I've managed some wonderful things with it. Taking excess heat off of me. Sneaking past turrets to take out their generators without firing a shot. Stealthing to interaction objectives in Co-Op missions while the rest of the party distracts the guards. Getting to a good sniping position without taking unnecessary fire, or right behind the enemy for a few quick pistol taps to the head. And it's really handy for getting at the rear critical hit point on Hellbug Warriors -- their mouth gland is only accessible some of the time, but you can always hit them in the tail.

Cloak was awesome when I had it in beta but my favorite hands down was that decoy drone. Mostly because the mutants were stupid enough to still be shooting at it while I was literally pelting them with violence from behind. Idiots seriously never turn around until the decoy goes away.

Colt558
04-04-2013, 12:34 AM
An even better one is delete your character each time you die.

Like WarZ lol

Loki The Harvester
04-04-2013, 01:00 AM
I think really the op's thread name is the reason for all the conflict. though fun to read, some responses were ridiculous. I completely understand about feeling low amount of accomplishment if you zerg your way through the game or have the game "force" the zerg mentality on you. I wish the game would say heal the bad guys when they are out of combat. I am totally ok with dying at that boss but since my buddy was still throwing rounds into him hes still at 50% hp, but if say he dropped back and waited for me to come back so we could take him on the boss should really be doing something other then just sitting there waiting for more punishment and "making the mission easier with each subsequent death". is this to "hard" that a casual player would feel frustrated and give up? it would be a small change and add a lot to the game imo. is this enough of a change that an advanced player would find the game more enjoyable? I would love to hear opinions from both sides of the skill level. sadly if games all move to this zerg mentality I will be seriously disappointed. it wont stop me from playing as I play for the enjoyment games of all types give me, but it would make me sad.

also there are games out there where no matter how much time you put into it you can and will lose the game from making to many mistakes, excom for one. threat lvl get to high around the world, didn't advance the right tech? eventually you will lose, game over, it will not let you just plug in more hours to fix everything. but this game is a mmo and I don't expect that kind of thing nor would want it from this type of game.

Aetrion
04-04-2013, 01:10 AM
I don't think dying should be overly painful considering how stupidly random it is sometimes.

I did a mission that had me go to the bottom of an open pit mine. I touch an item down there, the game spawns a dozen raiders on top of the mine, 3 of which had rocket launchers, firing down on me, the others with assault rifles. I got hit with all 3 rockets and died before I even realized I was now under attack. Used the self revive, made it half way out of the pit before getting shot by another rocket, and then died again when a second rocket killed me while I was on the ground.

I then returned to the same location and killed all of the raiders without much of a problem now that I wasn't stuck in a deathzone with no cover anymore. I don't feel like you should get too harshly punished for random deaths like that.

Philote
04-04-2013, 01:18 AM
There's already a death penalty in Defiance. Wounded pride. You should be ashamed of yourself every time you have to return to an extraction point, and taking your paltry scrip is just insult to injury. Bow your head in shame.

I know I do. :P

Ra1dMaX
04-04-2013, 03:02 AM
heh only times i die is when i take on arkfalls solo or when i get distracted ....got plenty of scrip..almost 80k atm with nothing to spend it on...pretty much played to 300 with a SAW LMG and a sniper rifle with the occasonal mix in with the BMG and a grenade launcher...

tbh the deaths how it is now ingame is just fine...its meant to be fun to play...and EQ/aions way of making a death sting just sucked outright

Fiancee
04-04-2013, 03:05 AM
I suggested risk and reward to them. I agre Id love to see something with limited deaths, or if you die you get no reward, or dying means substantially less reward.

ExcuseMyMandarin
04-04-2013, 03:32 AM
I suggested risk and reward to them. I agre Id love to see something with limited deaths, or if you die you get no reward, or dying means substantially less reward.

or a sphree without dying is rewarded?

Nazrudin
04-04-2013, 04:24 AM
Remove self revive, that's just silly. I don't care if it has a cooldown.
Having to loose scrip everytime you die is totally acceptable but self revive is just lame and off putting tbh.

All you do is rush and go "meh.. if things go south I'm just gonna use my self revive, nps"
Less catering please and more brain.

Dagbiker
04-04-2013, 06:13 AM
Or how about an increased drop rate if you increase your death debt percentage?
I dont know if anybody played the new Kid Icoras, but they did that.
Basically you could increase your EXP awarded after a level by increasing the difficulty.

Saraya
04-04-2013, 06:24 AM
Your scrip repair is based on your EGO level, when you get to the real part of the game, outside of what was available in the BETA and your ego level is higher you'll start to see that death is not something to laugh at.

Because you lose some money? Money that is coming in heavy streams consistently? And that you don't often have anything else to spend on?

Losing money on death is a ******ed idea when there's no lore support for it. Am I paying to have myself revived? Even though I see or hear no such process?


I believe people are talking about things such as time, stat, movement or location penalties.

Dagbiker
04-04-2013, 07:00 AM
Because you lose some money? Money that is coming in heavy streams consistently? And that you don't often have anything else to spend on?

Losing money on death is a ******ed idea when there's no lore support for it. Am I paying to have myself revived? Even though I see or hear no such process?


I believe people are talking about things such as time, stat, movement or location penalties.

Really, the uncanonical death tax is the thing that brings you out of the game?
Not the materialization of the Dodge Chargers out of thin air?
or the hundreds of people that look exactly like you, or the hundreds of mutants that look, and are defeated exactly the same way?

Woody
04-04-2013, 07:17 AM
will you stop with this already! Oh no, i'm not getting punished enough. How am i to have fun if i don't suffer for dying/failing a mission/whatever. And please wipe my inventory and perma delete my character if i die in PvP too. /sigh

Kaeleron
04-04-2013, 07:24 AM
I think if you are incapacitated you can be revived by only another player with a medic Perk but once that bar runs out and you die they should close your account and make you re purchase the game . . . cause your dead . . . Hardcore Penalty!

Saraya
04-04-2013, 07:28 AM
Really, the uncanonical death tax is the thing that brings you out of the game?
Not the materialization of the Dodge Chargers out of thin air?
or the hundreds of people that look exactly like you, or the hundreds of mutants that look, and are defeated exactly the same way?
You assume we haven't complained about those either?

Hawty
04-04-2013, 08:22 AM
I'm having fun and I really like this game but god do I wish death were more than a minor inconvenience.

I liked the old EQ2 system where you got XP debt every time you died and from that point 50% of all XP went to paying off the debt.

I think the newer generation of players is more casual so I understand why MMOGs are care bear but it'd be nice to fear dying (in game) again.


In the end you still end up with a vast majority of carebears who only PvP when they feel there is no competition or in PvE only do things that are easy.

I know there are actual hardcore people who just like the risk involved, but there are too many players who will play like said above.

Although i guess experience isnt quite as important in this game. Im rambling and thinking about the effects lol.

Hawty
04-04-2013, 08:24 AM
I think if you are incapacitated you can be revived by only another player with a medic Perk but once that bar runs out and you die they should close your account and make you re purchase the game . . . cause your dead . . . Hardcore Penalty!


hahahahahaha

Ngamok
04-04-2013, 08:46 AM
Do we want EQ corpse runs or Plane of Fear break ins when things go bad and your corpse is stuck there until someone clears it?

fireflower
04-04-2013, 09:49 AM
The way I see it, there's never going to be a consensus on a discussion topic like this. Unfortunately, unless Trion were to make multiple versions of the game or server-specific alterations, there's no way that the people who are fine with the current death/revive penalty system can have what they want, and those who want another system (regardless of the specifics of such) can also have what they want. Even if such a thing were done, that would split up the game's population even more than it is now, which would lead to a dead game and/or unwanted server merges in time. At best, there would have to be some middle ground...but changing the game for the sake of difficulty boosts/alterations at this point of time would be pretty stupid, honestly. The staff has enough on its plate with the pile of bugs and other issues that are all over the forums.

With that said, I understand the OP's perspective. I don't know about FPS/TPS games, but in a lot of other types, getting punished heavily for death is just what happens. Miss a jump in a platformer and die? Hope you reached the checkpoint, or it's back to the beginning of the level for you. Come in 4th by .005 seconds in a racing game when you needed 3rd? Game over, start the tournament again from the beginning, sorry. Bullet hell games and other shooters? No more continues and no more lives, and you start over from level one; even if you have continues or lives left, getting hit or running out of energy still boots you to the beginning of that area. The game throws up brick walls in front of you and says, "If you're not good enough to pass this, do it over until you get it right!" There's a sense of accomplishment and excitement when, after losing over and over again, you finally get it.

I know I'm not much of a gamer compared to a lot of the people who are on this forum - I openly admit to being both a casual and a carebear. (Better that I know where I stand than to delude myself, right? :) ) For a lot of people, a MMO isn't a good MMO without quality PvP, both in mechanics and in community. I've got no problem with that, it's just not something I've found the appeal of yet, so instead of getting in the way or whining about PvP, I stay in my corner and enjoy my PvE content, or go somewhere else where I can. No hard feelings either way: that's my usual perspective when it comes to differences between what I want and what makes the majority of the community happy.

Why'd I bother saying all that? Because I wanted it to be clear that someone doesn't have to be a hardcore gamer to get the point, even if I can't see it from the same perspective.

When most games teach you to expect that challenge that locks you out of the next level of play until you master the current one, the experience of beating that challenge is a reward in itself. If a game's not going to do that, then you want some other kind of reward, right? If someone who doesn't die at all due to their skill gets the same stuff for clearing a mission as the person who's died repeatedly (hi radio tower), then of course to the more skilled player it's going to look too easy. What's the point of playing well when repetition will do the job? Not as well or as quickly, but it's still possible...the game doesn't make it a requirement to improve, just one option of many.

Most people probably aren't used to that kind of approach. It definitely surprised me...and I'm honestly not good at FPS/TPS games at all (this is the first time I've decided to own one so I can actually practice and get better, haha) so I was relieved, not annoyed. I expected having to extract meaning that I get dumped at the last bind point and have to travel back to where I was with all the enemies at full health, if not having to pick the quest up again and start from square 1. It was good to not have to burn time doing that, only to die again, drive back, start from scratch, die, drive back, rinse and repeat until I either decided to do something else or just rage quit altogether.

So no, I don't think that the current system is a bad thing. It's strange, but I kind of like it...but I can see why some people wouldn't like it, and there's nothing wrong with their opinions! If it were possible to have difficulty levels in Defiance like there are in Touhou, I'd support it - even though I'd be keeping as far away from Defiance's Lunatic mode as I do from Touhou's, for the sake of my own patience if nothing else.

While I know that you're not a fan of self imposed challenges, OP, if the current difficulty levels are reducing the enjoyment of the game for you, perhaps it'd help to try something new anyway? Using weapons you're not as used to, or different powers, or just mastering new strategies is as much of a self-given challenge as any of the more complex examples here. No, it won't fix the core issue. But if they fixed it now, there'd be a large number of people rightfully frustrated/annoyed with the staff for patching difficulty while things keep their games offline or working incorrectly...so it could help with passing the time until a change along the lines of what you want becomes more likely. Something like rewards for players who don't die (as that's probably less of a programming change than changing enemy AI or health regen?) may become popular enough to add, maybe in areas added by DLC. But we still wouldn't get to see it for a while yet.

Just keep in mind, hardcore gamers out there, that Trion is probably gambling that once Defiance-the-show is out, some people who like it will try out the game even if TPS type titles aren't their strong point. (And I'm sure Syfy is advertising it already.) Just like PC users have to deal with a console friendly UI because both groups have to be included at all stages of planning*, gamers who know shooters and are expecting more of a challenge have to live alongside those who have little to no experience with them yet. And if the game starts out too hard - no, not just the tutorial, but the early areas beyond it, where new players are still getting their feet under them - then people who would've stayed and bought cash shop items/dlc will leave. If Trion's a smart company, and I do hope they are, they'll see lost customers as lost revenue. I've seen people spend far more in F2P games getting cosmetic-only items than it cost to buy the standard edition of Defiance. There are others who spend more than Ultimate Edition's price tag on digital items in a year. The staff shouldn't want people to be unhappy enough to stop playing, cause then they don't buy more stuff! (Why else make a game B2P with cash shop, really, unless the intent is to potentially make the game more profitable via cash shop purchases? Which means making sure that the entry level for the game is low enough to get a bunch of people in.)

The hard part facing the staff is that they're blending a lot of groups here. They have to try and make enough people happy while knowing they can't please everyone. People who are playing on console versus people playing on PC, people who are here for shooter aspects versus people who are more interested in the MMO aspects, those who want PvP versus those who want PvE, people connecting from all over the world versus people with barely any server ping...we're not enemies but we do have different wants and requests, and not all of those are going to be possible to meet at the same time. Which comes back to what I said at the start about this topic being subjective and difficult to find a point of agreement on that works for everyone.

Er, anyway, I do believe I've rambled enough.

TL;DR: I get what you're saying, OP. While having expected that sort of gameplay myself, due to my own lack of skill I'm glad it's not that way yet. But if it ever changes to become that way, I'll live with it and enjoy the game for what it is to the best of my ability. I hope you can find ways to do the same until there's a chance for the things you dislike to be improved on. (Oh, and I hope your girlfriend's game successfully patches! I initially bought the game so I could play it online with my boyfriend, who's physical edition isn't supposed to be at the store until today. So I understand what it's like, a little.)

*I understand why...but Trion, can we have a better chat system, at least for PC? How are people supposed to meet one another if the only way for someone to hear you is for you to stand right next to them? Group is fine once you're actually in one, but...

WaGzy
04-04-2013, 09:49 AM
There's already a death penalty in Defiance. Wounded pride. You should be ashamed of yourself every time you have to return to an extraction point, and taking your paltry scrip is just insult to injury. Bow your head in shame.

I know I do. :P

Try out Dayz!

If you die, your dead you lose EVERYTHING talk about epic zombie survival!

Zakka
04-04-2013, 10:47 AM
I am one those ancient gamers that come from MUD and UO days that you hear about. While I understand were the OP is coming from, I don't agree. I've been through to many games with exp lost, down leveling, item breaking when you die that I just don't believe the system works anymore.

If you punish a player too much for dieing, they won't want to play anymore, if the death punishment is too light it probably won't be challenging and become boring quickly

There is a balance which I believe most players like. "hard-core" and "care-bear" are just made up terms for the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Would I mind slightly harder death penalty? No
I feel is may be a bit to lean, but at the same time I haven't hit a very high ego level and can't fully judge something I don't fully understand.

Would I mind down leveling, corpse runs, items breaking? Yes
This type of game punishment is just doesn't work very well anymore, you have to remember more people are playing video games and online game than any time before. Most gamers really don't want to be harshly punished for playing a game, and what is the primary goal of a game? To entertain us, and the vast majority of us want something that isn't too easy or too hard.

I for one want to be challenged, but I don't want to throw my arms up in the air and beat my head against the wall for stress release.


The one thing I believe that is utterly true in the world is there is a balance too everything.

So being that is is only about what the second day of launch? Why don't we all take off the design caps, sit back and just play the game and try to just enjoy it for what it is, and then once a week has past if we still feel the game is to easy or to hard we can come back here and start discussing again.

leoeldude
04-04-2013, 02:20 PM
You forgot something. DLC. I have played games that have easy main questlines but they get zones that are only suited for the top players, such zones have better loot and more challenges and the mob there have carebears for breakfast.
Self revive is a consolation, it's sad to see how everybody stomps on your dying body.
I think rewards will be better than punishments, like giving buff for endurance and debuffing you when you die, but then again we don't need more buff.

PHug
04-07-2013, 07:40 PM
There are no difficulty options provided, and I don't want to impose ones on myself not outlined by the game. That's what I've been saying the entire time.

This is a themepark MMO (well, sort of an mmo..different subject) where everything is laid out in front of you. This is not a sandbox like, say, DayZ where it's "here are the keys go figure it out."

Again, where are you going with this?

I think your problem is that you don't know what you want.

You state here that you want more difficulty but when the options to make the game more challenging are presented you won't use them. I also find it funny that some one claiming that the game needs more difficulty used arkfall codes to buff their character.

I'm going to suggest you change your argument to what you really want.
I feel you want the game more difficult for other people because you are more concerned with measuring your ability/progress against people you don't know. So the reason you can't bring yourself to make the game more difficult is because if you did then those people you don't know would think less of you because you would have less progress.

You remind mo of parents I don't like. I tell people all the time that I hate people with kids because instead of raising their kids they try to fix the world. Like when someone curses on tv they want the station shut down instead of explaining to their kid that the action was wrong, or wanting violent games banned instead of teaching their kid the difference between game violence and real life violence.

Failby
04-07-2013, 08:45 PM
OP, here's one solution I use every now and again when I feel like it is too easy to just zerg an area. Log out, log back in. It will reset your progress on your current quest. So you would have to re-fight everything in the area.

Obviously not the best solution, but it still serves the purpose for the time being.

Having read a bulk of the thread, hopefully getting the relevant idea of the OP... you would be more interested in stopping zerg'ing missions that an overall ramping up of difficulty?

Because truthfully, in my experience the game does give a decent challenge at times. Enemies will outflank and outgun you if you rush in too fast. The ability to come right back to the fight takes it away (unless I'm playing with my friends... then being able to rejoin doesn't bother me as much)


Best solution I could see would be if changes were being made would be to leave the self-respawn timer in (cheap deaths aren't any fun >.>), but if no players are in the area, mobs should regenerate their health/reset their spawns