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crasher
02-12-2014, 02:13 PM
I have a blue BMG (Tele-spanner) with a decent damage charge of 4% on a lower level 'toon. First BMG I've found for this 'toon that didn't completely suxor.
The Link range is '7'.

I pick up a blue '+4 range' scope mod from the vendor at Coit, and attached it.
10K scrip

So why is my range still '7'?
Either the word 'range' has a meaning in the game stats, or it does not.
Why the jekk would the word 'Range' be used in such a way to mean two different things on the same weapon?

If it's referring to range on the weapon and range on the scope with 2 different meanings, I can only surmise that the same guy who wrote the descriptions of both also defined the game as an MMO in the marketing copy, decided to sprinkle other bits of shtako through-out the game, and still insists that if you close one eye and squint with the other you can see Uranus if you try really hard one night.

I'm getting tired of descriptions in the game having little or no, and sometimes completely random, definitions. It appears to be just one more example of the devs having a joke at our expense, and wondering why we don't trust them or take the staff seriously.

Smooth move, guys. It's nice to see that you don't mind herding your customers into the 'TRION doesn't care about gamers' camp.
I'm sure getting used to the the concept that writing a game with stats that mean what you read them as in context is a stupid and archaic concept.

And Crix wonders why there's negativity on the forums.

Shadow Andreas
02-12-2014, 02:29 PM
I have a blue BMG (Tele-spanner) with a decent damage charge of 4% on a lower level 'toon. First BMG I've found for this 'toon that didn't completely suxor.
The Link range is '7'.

I pick up a blue '+4 range' scope mod from the vendor at Coit, and attached it.
10K scrip

So why is my range still '7'?
Either the word 'range' has a meaning in the game stats, or it does not.
Why the jekk would the word 'Range' be used in such a way to mean two different things on the same weapon?

If it's referring to range on the weapon and range on the scope with 2 different meanings, I can only surmise that the same guy who wrote the descriptions of both also defined the game as an MMO in the marketing copy, decided to sprinkle other bits of shtako through-out the game, and still insists that if you close one eye and squint with the other you can see Uranus if you try really hard one night.

I'm getting tired of descriptions in the game having little or no, and sometimes completely random, definitions. It appears to be just one more example of the devs having a joke at our expense, and wondering why we don't trust them or take the staff seriously.

Smooth move, guys. It's nice to see that you don't mind herding your customers into the 'TRION doesn't care about gamers' camp.
I'm sure getting used to the the concept that writing a game with stats that mean what you read them as in context is a stupid and archaic concept.

And Crix wonders why there's negativity on the forums.

Hey crasher....I think the same happens on other weapons when you add a crit multiplying barrel and your crit multiplier doesn't change in the description of the weapon. I asked about this previously....but no response. I'll add it to the questions for the live stream.

Quebra Regra
02-12-2014, 02:55 PM
Hey crasher....I think the same happens on other weapons when you add a crit multiplying barrel and your crit multiplier doesn't change in the description of the weapon. I asked about this previously....but no response. I'll add it to the questions for the live stream.

By all means, please do. I start with a pistol with two crits, then slap on a crit barrel and see NO change. Borkd?

Shadow Andreas
02-12-2014, 02:57 PM
By all means, please do. I start with a pistol with two crits, then slap on a crit barrel and see NO change. Borkd?

Already added. Like I said....I did ask in previous live stream questions....but they have never really answered or acknowledged an issue. Hopefully this week :)

dramaQkarri
02-12-2014, 02:58 PM
The barrel mod (forget the mod name) that is supposed to increase minimum damage on rocket launchers doesn't work either, no change to stats. I replaced them all with damage radius instead = no more problem. Still, it would be nice if these mods did what they said they would do.

rebtattoo
02-12-2014, 03:21 PM
This isn't the only mod issue, however.

I don't know about the other platforms, but when I go into the matrix to inspect a weapon that I acquired from another player, I can't see the synergy n the mod. Have received a couple that I needed to play"guess which one" when trying to figure out which mod was wrong so I wasn't getting the full bonus.

Albion
02-12-2014, 03:56 PM
This isn't the only mod issue, however.

I don't know about the other platforms, but when I go into the matrix to inspect a weapon that I acquired from another player, I can't see the synergy n the mod. Have received a couple that I needed to play"guess which one" when trying to figure out which mod was wrong so I wasn't getting the full bonus.

Yep, same on Xbox. You used to be able to see the synergy by pressing the "view" button, but that changed sometime around Arbreaker DLC (I think, not sure). It really stinks when you get mismatched mods on a gun from someone, and you have to gamble on which are right and which are wrong.

Shadow Andreas
02-12-2014, 03:59 PM
Yep, same on Xbox. You used to be able to see the synergy by pressing the "view" button, but that changed sometime around Arbreaker DLC (I think, not sure). It really stinks when you get mismatched mods on a gun from someone, and you have to gamble on which are right and which are wrong.

I will add this too :)

crasher
02-12-2014, 04:02 PM
Yep, same on Xbox. You used to be able to see the synergy by pressing the "view" button, but that changed sometime around Arbreaker DLC (I think, not sure). It really stinks when you get mismatched mods on a gun from someone, and you have to gamble on which are right and which are wrong.
That changed some time around last August or so.

Amack
02-12-2014, 04:53 PM
Yeah, the mods are enough to drive a person crazy. CRAZY! I say!

Arsenic_Touch
02-12-2014, 04:54 PM
Double meanings are fun.

@op, what's funny? we still haven't gotten any dev clarification on stalker synergy. Someone did some testing and shows it's basically a falloff barrel redux not a range extender itself.
It doesn't extend the range on infectors and it doesn't appear to on bmgs either and there's no reason to extend the range on other guns except maybe shotguns because of how terrible the draw distance is. Though it's a drop in the ocean.

crasher
02-12-2014, 05:25 PM
Double meanings are fun.

@op, what's funny? we still haven't gotten any dev clarification on stalker synergy. Someone did some testing and shows it's basically a falloff barrel redux not a range extender itself.
It doesn't extend the range on infectors and it doesn't appear to on bmgs either and there's no reason to extend the range on other guns except maybe shotguns because of how terrible the draw distance is. Though it's a drop in the ocean.
Are you saying that they put BMG fall-off extender mechanics in the game?
That alone would be a knee-slapper.:rolleyes:

I did like the idea of fall-off barrels for ARs, I put them on the TNTW purple heavy carbines for semi-auto sniper type work on Bombers at Bathouse before they did the Surge Bolter thing.

Bonehead
02-12-2014, 05:30 PM
Seems to me I remember the stats never changing on any of the infectors I fully modded either.

Arsenic_Touch
02-12-2014, 05:33 PM
Are you saying that they put BMG fall-off extender mechanics in the game?
That alone would be a knee-slapper.:rolleyes:

I did like the idea of fall-off barrels for ARs, I put them on the TNTW purple heavy carbines for semi-auto sniper type work on Bombers at Bathouse before they did the Surge Bolter thing.

I like the idea of falloff barrels for ARs too, they really need them. Same with pistols. The problem is, there already is a falloff barrel that says + to falloff range. Where as the stalker synergies are labeled % to range" not falloff.

The devs seriously need to take a month and look at all of the guns and their stats and get things working properly. I don't see it happening but yeah.

It was funny, back when the immunizer was able to be automatic and had it's old stats, people were paying millions for a stalker immunizer thinking it would increase the range, only to find that it did nothing at all.

Overtkill21
02-12-2014, 06:12 PM
Ground Pounder...and I think a few other Detonators too - DMG stats, Blast Radius Stats, etc. these do not change in spite of any rolls or mods you have on the gun.

Amack
02-12-2014, 06:58 PM
The devs seriously need to take a month and look at all of the guns and their stats and get things working properly. I don't see it happening but yeah.

They really need to do this though! Nilxain gave up on it and doesn't play anymore, but the rolls thread was as good if not better than the Warmaster guide.

Just assign a single person to take care of this, it can't take them more than a week, maybe two?
If they just re-arranged things without coming up with new rolls then most of the code already exists along with the database entries...

WTH Trion... this would be such a drastic improvement on the game... I don't get you sometimes, and when I do... I rarely enjoy it.

Lillith Valerian
02-13-2014, 12:34 AM
Depressing and demoralizing thread is depressing and demoralizing.

I've been frequently baffled and wondered why some of my weapons didn't seem to show improvement, when by all rights they should have. Now I guess I know.

Good news, though. My car didn't get repo'd. At first. Instead I would summon it, then stand there endlessly and wait for it to actually appear - only to have it finally appear, and immediately disappear (timed out) before I could get into it. Apparently I was supposed to take a lovely stroll. So I did.

Each encounter went the same. I would shoot and kill something, then it would just sit there, life bar empty, threatening me from beyond the grave like shtako that wouldn't flush. When it finally disappeared, I would play the dynamic new content added, which is a long delay before ammo draws up from the ground into your character, or ammo boxes that refuse to respond. It's the difficulty increase we were asking for, in an inventive new way. Lots of interesting new things since DLC 3.

I just started to get the hang of anticipating where enemies might spontaneously disappear and rubber band to as well, when money and weapons flatly refused to be picked up, no matter how long I waited. So I logged out and back in, and had my car repo'd a half-dozen times in a row, before Trion decided I needed to start spending more time with my new PS4 and kicked me out of the game.

Defiance is a strange bird. A few hundred dollars I've put into it might not be much to some people, but it's a lot to me. I'm bummed that the current quality and future prospects aren't what I'd assumed and hoped for.

*Sigh*. Ah, well.

Bonehead
02-13-2014, 01:55 AM
Me too Pink, me too.

WhiteF8ng
02-13-2014, 05:02 AM
I have a blue BMG (Tele-spanner) with a decent damage charge of 4% on a lower level 'toon. First BMG I've found for this 'toon that didn't completely suxor.
The Link range is '7'.

I pick up a blue '+4 range' scope mod from the vendor at Coit, and attached it.
10K scrip

So why is my range still '7'?
Either the word 'range' has a meaning in the game stats, or it does not.
Why the jekk would the word 'Range' be used in such a way to mean two different things on the same weapon?

While there are a plethora of weapon stats that are wonky in DEFI this isn't one of them. Link Range is the distance between targets being linked. That's why the Stock mod says "Link Range" and not "Range". Range, is the distance your character can initiate damage upon firing.

So instead of being falloff, Range increases the range at which the "beam" starts to hit an enemy. Link Range is the distance the BMG starts to link.

N3gativeCr33p
02-13-2014, 06:21 AM
So I logged out and back in, and had my car repo'd a half-dozen times in a row, before Trion decided I needed to start spending more time with my new PS4 and kicked me out of the game.

So you finally got your PS4, eh? Congrats!

Shoogli
02-13-2014, 07:01 AM
By all means, please do. I start with a pistol with two crits, then slap on a crit barrel and see NO change. Borkd?

It *sometimes* happens to me as well right after I mod a gun *BUT* after closing inventory and re-opening it the stats are then updated and appear right, or after logging out then back in.
It seems to be a UI update issue.

If the issue persist I would suggest you do the following to provide a way for them to reproduce it fast :

- Take a screenshot of the weapon card before modding.
- Take a screenshot after modding.
- Take a screesnhot after closing & re-opening inventory or logging out and back in

And post them so they can track the issue. If you can and have the patience also provide the exact steps you did, if the weapon was equipped in a loadout or not when being modded (who knows, it may force recalculation or not on the weapon card), what UI component you opened and when, depending on the screenshot you posted, etc...

Also by providing a screenshot they can see (for example on a crit calculation issue) if the total calculation includes an assassin synergy or not, see it may happen because of synergy or not.
Just saying a pistol with 2 crits doesn't help, maybe it happens on some pistols and not others...

Screenshots people, DATA...

The way the issues are described in this thread makes it painful to reproduce easily.

crasher
02-13-2014, 07:16 AM
While there are a plethora of weapon stats that are wonky in DEFI this isn't one of them. Link Range is the distance between targets being linked. That's why the Stock mod says "Link Range" and not "Range". Range, is the distance your character can initiate damage upon firing.

So instead of being falloff, Range increases the range at which the "beam" starts to hit an enemy. Link Range is the distance the BMG starts to link.

Not fighting with you, I respect you too much to argue WITH you.
I'm just presenting my points TO you.
And as an aside, Me and the community appreciate ALL you do for us.


So my BMG is defined NOT to link BETWEEN adjacent targets.
The Bionetic Mod Amplifier defines Link Range as "The range at which the BMG can link TO targets" (no mention of 'between').
The BMG lists a Link Range of '7'
The Projector lists a Range of '4'

My point is that there is nothing in the descriptions that tells me my mod influences 'Between', and common usage of 'Range' is
2.
the distance within which something can be reached or perceived.
"something lurked just beyond her range of vision"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/range

5
a (1) : the horizontal distance to which a projectile can be propelled (2) : the horizontal distance between a weapon and target


The Projector mod implies 'to', not 'between', targets.
The Projector mod description had ample space available to insert the words 'between targets being linked' if they wanted mean something other than 'to'.
:)
I'm going with wonky on this one, and my BMG should hit the inital/only target at an additional '4'.
My range should have increased from '7' to '11'.

BTW: Starting with a .5 reload and adding a blue '.85 reload mod' results in the same '.5' reload, even though (.5 * .85)=.425, and the .425 should round down to .4, not up to .5.

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/kaos_crasher/BMGLinkRange.jpghttp://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/kaos_crasher/BMGProjector.jpghttp://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/kaos_crasher/BMGstocklinkrange.jpg

Zugo
02-13-2014, 08:11 AM
Just to add to the confusion.

I had a tele-spanner with a range roll and added a scope like the one shown above. Only the damage beam was effected by the range modifier. Link range is the range at which the beam will jump to the next closest target so you don't really know the actual range of a tele-spanner without playing around with it.

Amack
02-13-2014, 08:25 AM
It *sometimes* happens to me as well right after I mod a gun *BUT* after closing inventory and re-opening it the stats are then updated and appear right, or after logging out then back in.
It seems to be a UI update issue.

DATA...

The only problem is, these UI, and stat issues (not to mention the mods themselves) have been this way for way too long.

If this (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?139475-Rolls-Overhaul-Thread&highlight=Rolls+Thread) isn't enough data, then I don't know what is.

They expect us to believe that they can completely modify multiple UI screens for things like clan boosts etc. but they can't fix it so we can see what synergy the mods are that are installed in the weapons? They expect us to believe they can't fix the same UI updating issue you described above? Personally, I find this rather insulting.

Shoogli
02-13-2014, 11:44 AM
[...]

If this (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?139475-Rolls-Overhaul-Thread&highlight=Rolls+Thread) isn't enough data, then I don't know what is.

[...]

I'm sorry I don't see the relevant part connecting to this thread and more specifically the issue I answered to.
If you want to quote me and add a rant to it please at least be on topic, the thread you linked to has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Amack
02-13-2014, 12:40 PM
I'm sorry I don't see the relevant part connecting to this thread and more specifically the issue I answered to.
If you want to quote me and add a rant to it please at least be on topic, the thread you linked to has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Yep, you're right. This whole thread frustrates me. I've seen and heard it all just one too many times. I apologize. You just haven't been here long enough.

Players like Nilxain (much like yourself) are not exactly what I would call common. We need players like Nilxain and he is gone now. Why do I know this and pay attention to such things, but Trion has a much harder time of doing so? It bugs me Shoogli. I'm guessing that if I were the one pulling a paycheck from this game and not Trion, it wouldn't bug me nearly as much.

Nilxain didn't deserve a title for all the hours he put into writing those threads and trying to troubleshoot difficult bugs? Arsenic doesn't deserve a title for everything he has done?

I'm not buying it, and neither should you.

crasher
02-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Yep, you're right. This whole thread frustrates me. I've seen and heard it all just one too many times. I apologize. You just haven't been here long enough.
Says the 'new' guy.....
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/kaos_crasher/Snoopy_Glasses_thumbsup.jpg

Shoogli
02-13-2014, 01:47 PM
Hey Amack, as a preamble to my answers below, I'd like to make sure you understand I'm not a native english speaker, thus some of my answers may seem either patronizing, in a mad tone, not humble, against you as a person, etc...
I certainly don't mean all that but my knowledge of the english language isn't as good as I wish to convey the exact tone and meaning : so take it easy ok :) ?


Yep, you're right. This whole thread frustrates me. I've seen and heard it all just one too many times. I apologize. You just haven't been here long enough.

I've been playing for little over a month now, EGO 2300ish, etc, and I can assure you I've been here long enough and don't need more than that to be able to analyze several things that are going on, why they are going on, and so on and so forth.
So while this may seem anything else than humble I can tell you I understand things, why they're like this, why this mechanic, why this way of doings things, that 95% of the players are oblivious to, including those that played in Beta or day 1.
Just one example, when I saw people rant about the new 6% orange drop from wm : I litterally facepalm...

Also I don't only mean game mechanics, but also "forum mechanics" and 2-ways clogged communication.


Players like Nilxain (much like yourself) are not exactly what I would call common. We need players like Nilxain and he is gone now. Why do I know this and pay attention to such things, but Trion has a much harder time of doing so? It bugs me Shoogli. I'm guessing that if I were the one pulling a paycheck from this game and not Trion, it wouldn't bug me nearly as much.

It doesn't work this way.
What happens "there" is miles away from what you think is happening.
Things are *never* black and white like this. You shouldn't be bugged by this, it's a "figment of your imagination".
Trust me :) !


Nilxain didn't deserve a title for all the hours he put into writing those threads and trying to troubleshoot difficult bugs? Arsenic doesn't deserve a title for everything he has done?

I'm not buying it, and neither should you.

The first time I read "that" comment of yours I thought you indeed saw what TD did there, now am not so sure. :p

-----

Ok Amack you managed to get me off-topic, on top of me being unable to lighten the "wordz" so this would seem funny, smart, trendy, and cool-kid like : gratz ;) !

Amack
02-13-2014, 02:02 PM
I've been playing for little over a month now, EGO 2700ish, etc, and I can assure you I've been here long enough and don't need more than that to be able to analyze several things that are going on, why they are going on, and so on and so forth.
So while this may seem anything else than humble I can tell you I understand things, why they're like this, why this mechanic, why this way of doings things, that 95% of the players are oblivious to, including those that played in Beta or day 1.
Just one example, when I saw people rant about the new 6% orange drop from wm : I litterally facepalm...

Also I don't only mean game mechanics, but also "forum mechanics" and 2-ways clogged communication.

I gathered all that from talking to you just a few times, I know you know.



It doesn't work this way.
What happens "there" is miles away from what you think is happening.
Things are *never* black and white like this. You shouldn't be bugged by this, it's a "figment of your imagination".
Trust me :) !

Normally there would be a few others jumping in to try and explain my frustration (and theirs) but it's not needed. I hope you never understand my perspective on this subject.


The first time I read "that" comment of yours I thought you indeed saw what TD did there, now am not so sure. :p

I saw it alright. Again, I hope you never understand my perspective.

-----


Ok Amack you managed to get me off-topic, on top of me being unable to lighten the "wordz" so this would seem funny, smart, trendy, and cool-kid like : gratz ;) !

No need to worry, Crasher is quite used to me derailing his threads.

maverick07
02-13-2014, 02:13 PM
By all means, please do. I start with a pistol with two crits, then slap on a crit barrel and see NO change. Borkd?

Pretty sure this is a case of what has been explained a few times on here. The salvage matrix shows the math multiplicatively when in reality it is additive. This makes people believe that the stats are going to be different than what they actually turn out to be. I thought that has been reported already and talked about on livestreams but apparently not...

Edit I forgot to mention that damage is done multiplicatively but that is the only one. Everything else is done additively like mag, crit, or reload bonuses.

Bonehead
02-13-2014, 05:23 PM
Yep, you're right. This whole thread frustrates me. I've seen and heard it all just one too many times. I apologize. You just haven't been here long enough.

Players like Nilxain (much like yourself) are not exactly what I would call common. We need players like Nilxain and he is gone now. Why do I know this and pay attention to such things, but Trion has a much harder time of doing so? It bugs me Shoogli. I'm guessing that if I were the one pulling a paycheck from this game and not Trion, it wouldn't bug me nearly as much.

Nilxain didn't deserve a title for all the hours he put into writing those threads and trying to troubleshoot difficult bugs? Arsenic doesn't deserve a title for everything he has done?

I'm not buying it, and neither should you.

That's it Mack. That's the nub of it. You see something and it (with repeated careful observation) can only be explained by a small set of possibilities. For me those possibilities have come down to either ineptitude, or apathy. Lack of resources could be an exacerbating issue in either case but I don't see it as a root problem any more. It were just that, other actions the management have taken would make more strategic sense.
That's just how I see it from atop my little hill.

WhiteF8ng
02-13-2014, 06:36 PM
My point is that there is nothing in the descriptions that tells me my mod influences 'Between', and common usage of 'Range' is
2.
the distance within which something can be reached or perceived.
"something lurked just beyond her range of vision"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/range

5
a (1) : the horizontal distance to which a projectile can be propelled (2) : the horizontal distance between a weapon and target


The Projector mod implies 'to', not 'between', targets.
The Projector mod description had ample space available to insert the words 'between targets being linked' if they wanted mean something other than 'to'.
:)
I'm going with wonky on this one, and my BMG should hit the inital/only target at an additional '4'.
My range should have increased from '7' to '11'.

Man, you really like those definition links...:p Either way, the range mod does exactly what definition 2 says. the horizontal distance "between a weapon and target" I see you haven't seen enough Tele-spanners yet. While the Tele-spanner is designed not to link by default, it's a common misconception that it isn't possible for it to link at all. It just has a "0" in the hidden links stat. The "+X Links" bonus rolls can change this.


BTW: Starting with a .5 reload and adding a blue '.85 reload mod' results in the same '.5' reload, even though (.5 * .85)=.425, and the .425 should round down to .4, not up to .5.

No argument here. That stat's broken. I'd assume BMG reloads work on a percentage. So that number should go up instead of down. Though I'm sure the mods still work they just aren't represented on the card. Haven't gotten around to testing it completely though. The last time I went at it with BMG numbers it wasn't pretty.

Aw yeah, pictures! (we'll just snip those) Lets look at the first one and it's description. "Extended Range but does not link to adjacent targets." A Tele-spanner by default, can hit an enemy at a far greater distance than any other BMG. That would be range. The Projector "+4 Range" mod increases this. It's right there really...I promise... You could say you're confusing Link Range and standard Range but the mod does work.