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View Full Version : Accuracy rolls, what are they good for? Official Info Wanted



ConcreteSnake
03-29-2014, 04:16 PM
So I've had some debates on exactly what rolls like -0.30 or -0.50 accuracy do on a gun like a vbi assault rifle or pistols, anything that's fired while aiming, not hip firing. I've heard lots of people say that the accuracy rolls do not make the aim reticule smaller but makes the bullets have a tighter more accurate grouping, but I just don't see it. I've tried guns with similar stats only difference is one has 2 accuracy rolls.....and they seem to fir the same to me. It is my current belief that accuracy rolls only affect the hip fire reticule and do nothing for aim accuracy. I would like convincing evidence and/or a post from a CM to confirm/deny my thoughts. There are so many stats and things in this game we are in the dark on and this one needs some light shed on it.

WhiteF8ng
03-29-2014, 06:45 PM
TL : DR Because of how they're applied, the accuracy rolls may not seem as if they work. It affects both aim and hip accuracy.

Accuracy was described by Trick as affecting the size at which the reticle begins. But accuracy itself isn't as powerful as the numbers would seem because:


A -0.20 accuracy bonus is flat. A -20% accuracy bonus is relative, and better than -0.20 as long as the base accuracy is higher than 1.0 (which it probably isn't on a VOT SMG, but is on most other weapons, at least when moving).

For example the difference of -0.50 accuracy on a SAW versus one without is pretty miniscule. It's probably there, but in order to see this small change you have to really look for it. In a sense, accuracy will affect bloom (bullet spread) because if the reticule begins smaller, then the bloom should end with a smaller reticule than if there were no accuracy bonus.

I'd be careful about this accuracy thing though. The last time accuracy rolls were challenged, 2 weapons caught an accuracy "fix". ....just sayin'...

Binky
03-29-2014, 10:43 PM
TL : DR Because of how they're applied, the accuracy rolls may not seem as if they work. It affects both aim and hip accuracy.

Accuracy was described by Trick as affecting the size at which the reticle begins. But accuracy itself isn't as powerful as the numbers would seem because:



For example the difference of -0.50 accuracy on a SAW versus one without is pretty miniscule. It's probably there, but in order to see this small change you have to really look for it. In a sense, accuracy will affect bloom (bullet spread) because if the reticule begins smaller, then the bloom should end with a smaller reticule than if there were no accuracy bonus.

I'd be careful about this accuracy thing though. The last time accuracy rolls were challenged, 2 weapons caught an accuracy "fix". ....just sayin'...

Another issue you might want to consider:

What the devs think is happening doesn't always coincide with what they say is happening, and quite often neither have anything to do with what is actually happening.

To put it another way, I suspect that many of the stats on the weapons cards have no relation or input in some of the formulas for weapons, and I'm sure many of the stats displayed are just random numbers in many more cases than we'd like to find out.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many of the numbers we see for stats are not used in any way in, or have any relation to, weapons characteristics.

How long did it take scopes to get fixed?

Trick said in a recent response to my BMG stat question in a live stream that they knew it was an issue, and they'd be working on it, but it wasn't a priority.

OK, so, it's wrong for a year, and will continue to be wrong, but just keep using the stats to make decisions about which BMGs to keep/scrap/mod/use, and uhm, good luck with that because for all intents and purposes some of the numbers might as well be Greek letter variables but we wont even tell you which ones.

I just dont trust crap in this game anymore, it's as good as random much of the time anyway.

Well, at least we got that going for us.

eaglepowers
03-29-2014, 10:59 PM
Great post. I was part of the discussion where critical errors had posted some nice photos and info regarding accuracy/bloom/recoil:
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?145863-ACCURACY-BLOOM-RECOIL-Illustrated-Sticky-Material

I agree with tekrunner's quote above but I think it only applies to hip reticule size.

ConcreteSnake
03-29-2014, 11:19 PM
TL : DR Because of how they're applied, the accuracy rolls may not seem as if they work. It affects both aim and hip accuracy.

Accuracy was described by Trick as affecting the size at which the reticle begins. But accuracy itself isn't as powerful as the numbers would seem because:



For example the difference of -0.50 accuracy on a SAW versus one without is pretty miniscule. It's probably there, but in order to see this small change you have to really look for it. In a sense, accuracy will affect bloom (bullet spread) because if the reticule begins smaller, then the bloom should end with a smaller reticule than if there were no accuracy bonus.

I'd be careful about this accuracy thing though. The last time accuracy rolls were challenged, 2 weapons caught an accuracy "fix". ....just sayin'...

this has made the most sense out of all the conversations I've had about this. So, while aiming and at full trigger pull max bloom, my reticule will be smaller because of my accuracy rolls. <-------this makes sense, the accuracy rolls not really affecting initial aim accuracy. I'm not challenging the accuracy rolls, I'm just trying to understand them.

Ambelina
03-29-2014, 11:54 PM
OK, so, it's wrong for a year, and will continue to be wrong, but just keep using the stats to make decisions about which BMGs to keep/scrap/mod/use, and uhm, good luck with that because for all intents and purposes some of the numbers might as well be Greek letter variables but we wont even tell you which ones.

Firstly: Thank you for not saying intensive purposes!!!

Secondly: Snake, I have a large collection of triple accuracy (with -.10, -.30, -.50 accuracy rolls) weapons I would be more than happy to let you test fire, against similar weapons without accuracy rolls, to let you see firsthand what these rolls do. I firmly believe accuracy is the most underrated roll on any weapon in the game. Just hit me up in game. I have you on friend list, so shouldn't be too hard to find me.

Thirdly: Here is a link to the page with the pictures of the Acc/Recoil/Bloom test. http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?145863-ACCURACY-BLOOM-RECOIL-Illustrated-Sticky-Material

Drewbud
03-30-2014, 02:12 AM
Firstly: Thank you for not saying intensive purposes!!!

Secondly: Snake, I have a large collection of triple accuracy (with -.10, -.30, -.50 accuracy rolls) weapons I would be more than happy to let you test fire, against similar weapons without accuracy rolls, to let you see firsthand what these rolls do. I firmly believe accuracy is the most underrated roll on any weapon in the game. Just hit me up in game. I have you on friend list, so shouldn't be too hard to find me.

Thirdly: Here is a link to the page with the pictures of the Acc/Recoil/Bloom test. http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?145863-ACCURACY-BLOOM-RECOIL-Illustrated-Sticky-Material

I too, feel acc rolls to be the best in game. I find on the SMG's where the base acc is much msaller to start and you can get close to 0.0 acc( shoots every bullet in the same hole) you do get the bonuses when scoped, the VBI SMG and vairents come to mind as some of the best with all acc rolls and rolling thunder synergy to boot.

cary2010haha
03-30-2014, 02:23 AM
no matter those roll is useful or not, they work


just like those X1.10 mag rolls, they all works

WhiteF8ng
03-30-2014, 02:37 AM
Another issue you might want to consider:

What the devs think is happening doesn't always coincide with what they say is happening, and quite often neither have anything to do with what is actually happening.

To put it another way, I suspect that many of the stats on the weapons cards have no relation or input in some of the formulas for weapons, and I'm sure many of the stats displayed are just random numbers in many more cases than we'd like to find out.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many of the numbers we see for stats are not used in any way in, or have any relation to, weapons characteristics.

How long did it take scopes to get fixed?

I'll be honest, a lot of stuff Trick says makes sense. It's just when he explains it, not every one gets it. Helping out with that weapon sheet helped explain things to the tenth power. Seriously. A lot of it makes sense but some of the things we find out could've been more stream-lined. I do like finding out these things though and experimenting, etc, etc...


Trick said in a recent response to my BMG stat question in a live stream that they knew it was an issue, and they'd be working on it, but it wasn't a priority.

OK, so, it's wrong for a year, and will continue to be wrong, but just keep using the stats to make decisions about which BMGs to keep/scrap/mod/use, and uhm, good luck with that because for all intents and purposes some of the numbers might as well be Greek letter variables but we wont even tell you which ones.

I just don't trust crap in this game anymore, it's as good as random much of the time anyway.

Well, at least we got that going for us.

They are getting there. They finally fixed the charge bonuses but forgot to take a gander at the mods apparently. But there are far more things wrong with BMGs but I don't think this current team is up to speed (yet) with a lot of it. It's evident when we ask about things and get that look that's in-between confusion and intrigue as to why it is that way. Well, when they actually understand what we're questioning. It also seems that some things in-game were made by a different team and the current is piecing it all together and honestly, if that is the case, this current team is fairing better than the old. (btw Trick, I still want our old Tactical scope back! As a "new" scope of course)


Secondly: Snake, I have a large collection of triple accuracy (with -.10, -.30, -.50 accuracy rolls) weapons I would be more than happy to let you test fire, against similar weapons without accuracy rolls, to let you see firsthand what these rolls do. I firmly believe accuracy is the most underrated roll on any weapon in the game.
Thirdly: Here is a link to the page with the pictures of the Acc/Recoil/Bloom test. http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?145863-ACCURACY-BLOOM-RECOIL-Illustrated-Sticky-Material

And Recoil. Recoil is delicious too.

Tekrunner
03-30-2014, 05:19 AM
What the Defiance community needs to do is to hassle Trick until he makes all accuracy bonuses relative instead of absolute. Something like -0.10 --> -10%, -0.30 --> -15%, -0.50 --> -20% (maybe a little lower, so that any triple accuracy rolling thunder weapon doesn't become a laser).

This really needs to happen at least for shotguns, because right now accuracy rolls are almost completely useless on most of them. A flat -0.10 bonus on a base value of 20 is a 0.5% bonus. -0.50 bonus on base value 7 is a 7% bonus.

I have asked Trion to do this a few times without success, but I don't have the motivation that some people have to hassle them until they do it (or tell us that they won't and why).

Tsort
03-30-2014, 06:48 AM
On the subject of rolls and BMGs, last week I did a couple of tests about the "link range" of BMGs.

My goal was to determine if the link range could improve the basic range of the BMG (the first beam). From what I've seen, the answer is no. I healed a toon and stepped back to max range. Then I switched to a BMG with better link range (10 to 16 I think). Max range was the same, I couldn't step back any further. Link range only works from the first target to the others.

Which means link range rolls on BMGs that do not link are useless. Like recoil on one-shot weapons, etc.

What I'm getting at is this: one of the first suggestions I've made when I started posting here was for Trion to make some kind of in-game glossary to explain what the bonuses are. I don't care if some rolls are useless, or if some are not working as intended. Most of the time I'd just like to know just what they're supposed to do in the first place...

How can modding become a big thing in this game if we don't even know what we're doing.

TAG
03-30-2014, 07:05 AM
I had a triple accuracy SAW and it sucked.

cary2010haha
03-30-2014, 07:50 AM
On the subject of rolls and BMGs, last week I did a couple of tests about the "link range" of BMGs.

My goal was to determine if the link range could improve the basic range of the BMG (the first beam). From what I've seen, the answer is no. I healed a toon and stepped back to max range. Then I switched to a BMG with better link range (10 to 16 I think). Max range was the same, I couldn't step back any further. Link range only works from the first target to the others.

Which means link range rolls on BMGs that do not link are useless. Like recoil on one-shot weapons, etc.

What I'm getting at is this: one of the first suggestions I've made when I started posting here was for Trion to make some kind of in-game glossary to explain what the bonuses are. I don't care if some rolls are useless, or if some are not working as intended. Most of the time I'd just like to know just what they're supposed to do in the first place...

How can modding become a big thing in this game if we don't even know what we're doing.

thats because heal range is bugged, try attack range, you will find they works well

Fuzzle
03-30-2014, 08:16 AM
link range

There's specifically separate stats for range and link range so it makes sense that they wouldn't affect each other. Getting a Spanner Trapper with no +links, but +link range stats makes me so rawr!

Imagine how happy I was to get THESE orange BMG's!

http://i.imgur.com/FAJR2sg.jpg

There are so many horribly useless stats all over for different weapons. There have been multiple threads before looking for some stat overhauls. I never read them that thoroughly, but I highly doubt any have been comprehensive.

As for OP, as the other people stated accuracy is usually not noticeable unless you are using an already extremely accurate weapon. A tachmag pulser for example. The crosshairs do actually shrink with those accuracy bonuses.

One question I've had though, is if it's possible to overshoot your accuracy. Like, your target is to get 0 accuracy, but if you have a gun that's .1 accuracy and get a -.5 accuracy bonus, will it make your gun -.4 accuracy and have your crosshairs actually get larger? And if that is the case with both AIM accuracy and regular accuracy. This might be answered in the thread linked earlier? I'll have to read through the whole thing later.

Tekrunner
03-30-2014, 08:28 AM
One question I've had though, is if it's possible to overshoot your accuracy. Like, your target is to get 0 accuracy, but if you have a gun that's .1 accuracy and get a -.5 accuracy bonus, will it make your gun -.4 accuracy and have your crosshairs actually get larger? And if that is the case with both AIM accuracy and regular accuracy. This might be answered in the thread linked earlier? I'll have to read through the whole thing later.

Remember back when adding a scope to a sniper made it impossible to hit anything with them? I think that's what was happening. Snipers have pinpoint accuracy when aiming, so the bonus from a scope made that negative and they became inaccurate. Since they fixed this for snipers, one can hope that they made it a general check: if (accuracy < 0) then accuracy = 0.

@Tsort: there isn't a whole lot that is still unknown about weapons and / or bonuses. If you have questions, don't hesitate to post them. There are a few people around who are always happy to discuss game mechanics.

eaglepowers
03-30-2014, 08:50 AM
I'm having a hard time understanding the responses? Seems to be a mixed bag? Do accuracy rolls only make the initial reticule smaller? Does it apply to both hip and aim? Does it make initial hip size smaller and not aim but makes aim not expand as much?

Everyone claiming accuracy rolls are underrated and the best do you feel every weapon benefits or just some?

I've got a emc service rifle that I think is based on a vbi assault that I'm really warming up too. It has -.1+-.5 accuracy rolls and -.1 recoil. Initial hip accuracy is smaller but not aim compared to a vbi assault w/out these rolls. However, the shots don't seem to move around much? It's the tightest shooting vbi assault I have. Are the initial stats different than a vbi variant or is it the accuracy or recoil making it better? I have yet to put a recoil mod but I did put an assault scope on it and it already blows out all of my other vbi ar's in pattern tightness and stability. My others only have 1 or no accuracy rolls and blue recoil and either stab or assault attached.

I've always believed recoil rolls trump accuracy rolls unless your gun was already a good hip shooter and that accuracy rolls don't help aim?

Fuzzle
03-30-2014, 09:50 AM
@Tsort: there isn't a whole lot that is still unknown about weapons and / or bonuses. If you have questions, don't hesitate to post them. There are a few people around who are always happy to discuss game mechanics.

Is there some kind of secret society or forum or something somewhere where you testers and theory crafters (Maverick/Tek/Whitef8ng/Xervez/JxSin are names that come to mind) group up and discuss things? If so, I want in on that. I'd be happy to collaborate in testing or data collecting.

Speaking of which, Tek; I could help you populate some data you're missing in your guns spreadsheet if you let me know what you'd like and how you'd like the data. I have a lot of those Warmaster and Extra Life weapons for example.

Lillith Valerian
03-30-2014, 04:13 PM
I wish I knew what I'm failing to understand (even after looking at those pictures) when it comes to snipers. Because I adore them, but despite the majority of the time I've spent using them over other weapons, I have never noticed any difference between those with 'accuracy' rolls, and those without.

It seems to be a completely useless bonus, in both concept and execution. You either hit the target (while aiming) or you don't.

Fuzzle
03-30-2014, 04:43 PM
I wish I knew what I'm failing to understand (even after looking at those pictures) when it comes to snipers.

If I'm not mistaken, while zoomed all snipers are 100% accurate (accuracy of 0), and when scoped out have such an absurd accuracy that the accuracy rolls have no effect (e.g. accuracy of 20 where your -.1 or even -.5 accuracy will have basically no effect).

Someone's welcome to correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Tsort
03-30-2014, 04:49 PM
@Tsort: there isn't a whole lot that is still unknown about weapons and / or bonuses. If you have questions, don't hesitate to post them. There are a few people around who are always happy to discuss game mechanics.
Thanks a lot. It's great to see dedicated players stepping in where game info comes short.

If BMG have a basic "range" stat, why didn't they simply list it on the card? There's not fall-off for a BMG I guess, so it would be useful to know how far I can be.

Link time is another mystery. I've never found a BMG that didn't link almost instantly.

Lillith Valerian
03-30-2014, 05:41 PM
That explains it, then. I never, ever fire a sniper without zooming in (I don't see the point in using one any other way).

On BMGs, I may be imagining it, but I could swear I've noticed a distinct difference in link times between different models. So much so that I prefer those with link time bonuses. Ones that I use without them sometimes feel sluggish, somehow.

Atticus Batman
03-30-2014, 08:12 PM
That explains it, then. I never, ever fire a sniper without zooming in (I don't see the point in using one any other way).

On BMGs, I may be imagining it, but I could swear I've noticed a distinct difference in link times between different models. So much so that I prefer those with link time bonuses. Ones that I use without them sometimes feel sluggish, somehow.

Recoil rolls are better on snipers, than accuracy rolls(Especially with semi-autos). If you are scoping (and why wouldn't you?) the accuracy rolls don't do much of anything. They are ok on Sas but don't really affect Bas.

Critical Errors
03-31-2014, 03:47 AM
I'm having a hard time understanding the responses? Seems to be a mixed bag? Do accuracy rolls only make the initial reticule smaller? Does it apply to both hip and aim? Does it make initial hip size smaller and not aim but makes aim not expand as much?

Everyone claiming accuracy rolls are underrated and the best do you feel every weapon benefits or just some?

I've got a emc service rifle that I think is based on a vbi assault that I'm really warming up too. It has -.1+-.5 accuracy rolls and -.1 recoil. Initial hip accuracy is smaller but not aim compared to a vbi assault w/out these rolls. However, the shots don't seem to move around much? It's the tightest shooting vbi assault I have. Are the initial stats different than a vbi variant or is it the accuracy or recoil making it better? I have yet to put a recoil mod but I did put an assault scope on it and it already blows out all of my other vbi ar's in pattern tightness and stability. My others only have 1 or no accuracy rolls and blue recoil and either stab or assault attached.

I've always believed recoil rolls trump accuracy rolls unless your gun was already a good hip shooter and that accuracy rolls don't help aim?

I'm on my phone, so I can't highlight the important part of your above quote. But the part about the shots mot moving much is exactly what I try to explain in my personal post that's been linked a couple times here. Accuracy is the effect of where your bullets land versus where you aim. In some cases it does effect reticule size as well, but not always. Acc rolls can mean the difference of hitting the nose versus the neck when you're trying to headshot a raider from 30m. This is of course exaggerated the further away from the target you are. If you're the type to always be up close and personal with the bad guys, then you probably won't ever see the benefit of an accuracy roll.

Critical Errors
03-31-2014, 03:52 AM
I wish I knew what I'm failing to understand (even after looking at those pictures) when it comes to snipers. Because I adore them, but despite the majority of the time I've spent using them over other weapons, I have never noticed any difference between those with 'accuracy' rolls, and those without.

It seems to be a completely useless bonus, in both concept and execution. You either hit the target (while aiming) or you don't.

Snipers rarely benefit from acc. rolls. The draw distance in game isn't long enough for them to be useful unless you're trying to hip fire for some reason. But if you're hip firing a sniper, you need to reconsider your weapon choices :p

Tsort
03-31-2014, 04:01 AM
This is of course exaggerated the further away from the target you are. If you're the type to always be up close and personal with the bad guys, then you probably won't ever see the benefit of an accuracy roll.
This is really obvious when you use a sawn-off with good accuracy. Shrapnel isn't scattered as much, so you don't need to be as close to your enemy to hit with all the pellets. With poor accuracy, you have to get real close or you'll overshoot small targets on all sides and lose dmg, instead of blowing heads off.

Bloom/recoil are useles on them because you fire only once (or possibly twice in a row but that's still meh).

Tekrunner
03-31-2014, 04:27 AM
Is there some kind of secret society or forum or something somewhere where you testers and theory crafters (Maverick/Tek/Whitef8ng/Xervez/JxSin are names that come to mind) group up and discuss things? If so, I want in on that. I'd be happy to collaborate in testing or data collecting.

Yes, meetings are at 8 PM every Monday. You will need a VPN connection and you will have to hide behind at least 7 proxies to connect.

I know that mav and White often work on these things together and with their clan mates, and we occasionally discuss things in PM. I have a Fuzzy guinea pig and I sometimes abuse a certain glitchy Hulker to do some tests of my own, but I'm not a huge fan and I'm not very good at this kind of spading work (I know spading is not a term that's widely used around here, but I'm used to call it that from other games; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test). I'm more of a theory crafter myself, I'd rather crunch numbers using what others have discovered. Sadly there aren't a great deal of people around here who are into discovering game mechanics, so I kind of have to test some stuff by myself...

As for helping with the weapon spreadsheet, we can discuss that in PM.

ConcreteSnake
03-31-2014, 07:30 AM
Snipers rarely benefit from acc. rolls. The draw distance in game isn't long enough for them to be useful unless you're trying to hip fire for some reason. But if you're hip firing a sniper, you need to reconsider your weapon choices :p

I have a few snipers that are rolling thunder with -0.50 acc and -0.10 acc that have crazy good hip crouch fire

Critical Errors
03-31-2014, 08:56 AM
I have a few snipers that are rolling thunder with -0.50 acc and -0.10 acc that have crazy good hip crouch fire

There are always exceptions :D But really, the whole point of hip fired weapons is the mobility. If you have to crouch while hip-firing, it kinda defeats the purpose. That's why I hate Crit when crouched on SMGs. Ain't no one got time for that!