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View Full Version : So You've Wiped Out Shield Progression...Wow, Why? Because Grenades?



Overtkill21
04-15-2014, 01:13 PM
Ok so now you've gone and wiped out Shield progression entirely?

You've made it so all Orange shields of a type share a common Cap, Delay, and Recharge Percentage.

In doing this you have removed ALL elements of choice in shields.

You have undone what was actually a simple, elegant system.

Here let me explain, since you all obviously do not understand what your predecessors programmed:

Let me use Resparks as an Example...

A Respark typically has 40% Recharge and a 3 second delay.

A benefit of HP Regen, Reload, Melee, etc. can be added to this as can a nano resistance - but not a zero cost - we'll get to that.

The Capacity of the Shield would go up based on EGO.

So HP Regen Resparks (assuming identical EGO) worked like this:

A 0% HP Regen Shield* would have a 2.4 Second Delay + No Nano Resistance
A 25% HP Regen Shield would have a 2.7 Second delay + Nano Resistance
A 50% HP Regen Shield would have a 3 Second delay + Nano Resistance
A 100% HP Regen Shield would have a 3 Second delay + No Nano Resistance

*(Using the V as an example in this progression)

So there's a solid choice - CHOOSE your shield and with it comes benefits and detriments to performance.

So now you've made it so that:

ALL Orange Resparks have a 2.4 Delay

What does this do to progression?

Well now the choice between HP Regen Resparks becomes:

A 0% HP Regen Shield would have a 2.4 Second delay + No Nano Resistance
A 25% HP Regen Shield would have a 2.4 Second delay + Nano Resistance
A 50% HP Regen Shield would have a 2.4 Second delay + Nano Resistance
A 100% HP Regen Shield would have a 2.4 Second delay + No Nano Resistance

Making the choice Much, Much, easier and making the "lesser" Regen shields into garbage.

But it gets better...by choosing the LOWEST delay for ALL Orange Resparks you have also made the Respark V completely 100% Useless as it gets no benefit over other ANY Orange Resparks in its EGO.

Oh and if you think only Resparks got this treatment...LOL....nope - ALL shields have had this happen - ALL Orange Rebels now have 2.4 Second Delay, ALL Orange Hurricanes now have a 90% recharge - they've chosen one stat from each class of shield and made it into the Orange Stat...without regard for the way the game was designed. This is just too much.

So Bravo once again Trion, for 100% Not Understanding this game.

thejx4
04-15-2014, 01:38 PM
Two threads are not better than one.

ConcreteSnake
04-15-2014, 01:50 PM
Two threads are not better than one.

this one is better.

I assume what happens is that when "glitch" happened with the shields this was their fix.

Elastik Spastik
04-15-2014, 01:59 PM
Reading these threads just makes me want to not play defiance at all

Overtkill21
04-15-2014, 02:05 PM
Two threads are not better than one.

One thread was about a specific shield - since this affects ALL shields - this thread is appropriate.

dramaQkarri
04-15-2014, 02:29 PM
Reading these threads just makes me want to not play defiance at all

ditto. at least not for a couple weeks.

N3gativeCr33p
04-15-2014, 02:31 PM
Reading these threads just makes me want to not play defiance at all

I was just thinking the same thing myself... and I know this much for sure, playing today is totally out of the question.

Elastik Spastik
04-15-2014, 04:24 PM
I was just thinking the same thing myself... and I know this much for sure, playing today is totally out of the question.

To be honest im done with this game unless they change it to how it used to be but they make these changes to try and maximize profit when in reality they have killed it and will make hardly anything. They would have made more if they had listened to the players because we would still be here and still be playing. The player base are the ultimate game testers but seems the big wigs know better. Im completely frustrated with what could have been a game in a league of its own, but instead is just another washed money making scheme with no regard to its customers and its failed. I may check back in a few months if the servers havent died by then but yeah im pretty much ran out of patience. Plus i now have new bigger and better games to use my game money on. I wish defiance could have been part of it but alas it is not to be. In my opinion I think they just want this to die a painful death and be done with it.

It really wouldnt surprise me if they dont do a season 2 pass. How many people are actuially going to buy it now.

N3gativeCr33p
04-15-2014, 04:26 PM
To be honest im done with this game unless they change it to how it used to be but they make these changes to try and maximize profit when in reality they have killed it and will make hardly anything. They would have made more if they had listened to the players because we would still be here and still be playing. The player base are the ultimate game testers but seems the big wigs know better. Im completely frustrated with what could have been a game in a league of its own, but instead is just another washed money making scheme with no regard to its customers and its failed. I may check back in a few months if the servers havent died by then but yeah im pretty much ran out of patience. Plus i now have new bigger and better games to use my game money on. I wish defiance could have been part of it but alas it is not to be. In my opinion I think they just want this to die a painful death and be done with it.

It really wouldnt surprise me if they dont do a season 2 pass. How many people are actuially going to buy it now.

Well, hey... if you ever get into console gaming, look me up. I could always use an Elastik Spastik on my friends list... :)

Elastik Spastik
04-15-2014, 04:29 PM
Well, hey... if you ever get into console gaming, look me up. :)

i was until mid last year, then converted to pc and always will be. I even bought this game twice, once for xbox when it came out then for pc when i converted. I obviously didnt realise what a shambles it would turn into. I'll be back from time to time whenever i can be bothered to play defiance, and thats a big if.

Bonehead
04-15-2014, 05:44 PM
TBH they seem to hate "simple and elegant" with a passion.

As always, good to see you Spazz.

Overtkill21
04-15-2014, 06:05 PM
LOL you'll never guess what I pulled from a Dark Matter Arkfall

A Respark V!

OMG - being trolled by the devs isn't funny.

Ok it kinda is.

Chump Norris
04-15-2014, 08:00 PM
Does anyone from Trion see the problem yet? Is this an ignore it and maybe it will go away deal?

ConcreteSnake
04-15-2014, 08:03 PM
Does anyone from Trion see the problem yet? Is this an ignore it and maybe it will go away deal?

they actually pretty much said that this is intended, it was a fix for shields that were not properly scaling and some legendary ones were worse than epic, so this was their"fix"

Overtkill21
04-22-2014, 12:16 PM
So this is still a problem - any word on any kind of fix?

Bonehead
04-22-2014, 12:22 PM
So this is still a problem - any word on any kind of fix?

I'll bet it'll have something to do with "cutting" and "pasting".

Z0mb1E
04-22-2014, 01:22 PM
So this is still a problem - any word on any kind of fix?

Totally on point here Overt, why use my respark V at all? I've only ever gotten two orange shields and now it appears I should use the Respark Blockade (so I don't have to dodge all those vehicles anymore).

Overtkill21
04-22-2014, 01:27 PM
Totally on point here Overt, why use my respark V at all? I've only ever gotten two orange shields and now it appears I should use the Respark Blockade (so I don't have to dodge all those vehicles anymore).

If you buy the line Trion is shoveling then your Respark V and ALL V shields were "typos" that existed in the game since last year.

However, I don't believe this is the case, in fact I know this is NOT the case.

The true fact would be that shield progression, not unlike grenade mechanics, are beyond the ability of the current developers to comprehend and as such, we are, once again, the beneficiaries of an amateur's attempts to improve a system built by professionals.

ironcladtrash
04-22-2014, 01:35 PM
Another perfect example of why everyone is pissed off and everything is "toxic" around here. Instead of admitting a mistake and add it to the list to get fixed they completely lie about it.

BJWyler
04-22-2014, 01:43 PM
So you can't even min/max in a game that now forces you to min/max. Wow ... that's just ...wow...

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f17/796391d1345422890-first-dye-job-epic-fail-facedesk-facedesk-facepalm-fail-demotivational-posters-1310644617.jpg

Bonehead
04-22-2014, 02:10 PM
The true fact would be that shield progression, not unlike grenade mechanics, are beyond the ability of the current developers to comprehend and as such, we are, once again, the beneficiaries of an amateur's attempts to improve a system built by professionals.

Hate to say it but I think you hit the nail on the head there my friend.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag464/lenzdude/5934913973_istockphoto_280569_nail_head_answer_2_x large_zpsdc004964.jpeg

Overtkill21
04-22-2014, 02:34 PM
Hate to say it but I think you hit the nail on the head there my friend.


Yes and now we have this...

http://forums.defiance.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6855&d=1398202418

Bonehead
04-22-2014, 02:37 PM
On topic, yes, because grenades.

Olaf
04-22-2014, 03:21 PM
to be honest with ya im not too fussed about this atall.. i can see why some of you guys are though. ive always been a respark user so the change is welcome to me as i like to run about with my respark regen v ark at 2.4 delay lol.... did you consider they altered the system to help deal with the buff'd enemies? obviously its a lie that it was a 'fix' for an unintended bug but it could be they done it to give the players a chance. opinions? oh yeah btw ive also got a respark v ego 5000 that ill never use again because of this so dont think my opinion is biased =)

Overtkill21
04-22-2014, 04:57 PM
I think this change is best summed up:

Grenades were originally a very ingenious system - that utilized a timer to recharge our grenades - then our perks and weapon rolls could reduce this recharge time -however- you had to trade off certain other perks and weapon rolls in order to fulfill a role as a "Grenadier".

This was changed to a convoluted, amateur-hour system that we have in place today. Rolls were made obsolete. Perks were made obsolete. Only now, months later do they begin to see how failed the grenade system truly is and add "Grenade Ammo" (something they were so vehemently against when they implemented the horrid change, btw).


Now allow me to rework it a bit:

Shields were originally a very ingenious system - that utilized a tradeoff of key stats (Delay, Recharge Percentage, & Capacity) - then a subclass could be added to that shield -however- you had to trade off certain other key stats in order to gain that subclass and have your shield fulfill a role as a grenade recharger - "Grenadier", fire rate booster - "Berserker", hp regenerator "Regenerator", etc.

This was changed to a convoluted, amateur-hour system that we have in place today. Entire classes of shields were made obsolete. Others were made far too overpowered.

B_Draco
04-22-2014, 07:06 PM
I think this change is best summed up:

Grenades were originally a very ingenious system - that utilized a timer to recharge our grenades - then our perks and weapon rolls could reduce this recharge time -however- you had to trade off certain other perks and weapon rolls in order to fulfill a role as a "Grenadier".

This was changed to a convoluted, amateur-hour system that we have in place today. Rolls were made obsolete. Perks were made obsolete. Only now, months later do they begin to see how failed the grenade system truly is and add "Grenade Ammo" (something they were so vehemently against when they implemented the horrid change, btw).


Now allow me to rework it a bit:

Shields were originally a very ingenious system - that utilized a tradeoff of key stats (Delay, Recharge Percentage, & Capacity) - then a subclass could be added to that shield -however- you had to trade off certain other key stats in order to gain that subclass and have your shield fulfill a role as a grenade recharger - "Grenadier", fire rate booster - "Berserker", hp regenerator "Regenerator", etc.

This was changed to a convoluted, amateur-hour system that we have in place today. Entire classes of shields were made obsolete. Others were made far too overpowered.

I miss my 55Z cluster 'nade and 55Z flash 'nade... And now shield varieties are screwed up? Trion, stop trying to even out everything that is meant to have variety!

Overtkill21
04-22-2014, 07:41 PM
I miss my 55Z cluster 'nade and 55Z flash 'nade... And now shield varieties are screwed up? Trion, stop trying to even out everything that is meant to have variety!

Well you know their motto:

If It Ain't Broke - Just Give Us a Patch.

Ironhide
04-22-2014, 08:10 PM
On topic, yes, because grenades.


Because the Silly Rabbit loves Trixx



...;)


(sorry had to change it or I would have got another weeks ban)

drackiller
04-23-2014, 01:41 AM
Ok, this is off topic but i need to say it anyway, my shields are still glitching at WM , they don`t regen after the estimated time, they don`t regen when using heal stims or while cloaking.
The main reason i die against the big monkey is because when i`m hit with is bombs i have ZERO health and shields.

Sorry for the off topic.

Olaf
04-23-2014, 04:16 AM
Ok, this is off topic but i need to say it anyway, my shields are still glitching at WM , they don`t regen after the estimated time, they don`t regen when using heal stims or while cloaking.
The main reason i die against the big monkey is because when i`m hit with is bombs i have ZERO health and shields.

Sorry for the off topic.

+1 this is happening for me too.
I have also noticed sometimes the Respark Regenerator shields stop giving their bonus (it stops giving your HP regen) which can only be fix'd by unequiping and reequiping the regenerator shield. This happens everywhere/anywhere and I am unable to figure out a pattern as to what causes it to bug out.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 05:37 AM
What I'd like to see happen with shields is base the complete stat set off of rarity. This will piss off the shield hoarders, but it would make for a better balance imo.

example: Respark Regen
Common = All versions: Respark Regen II D
Uncommon = All versions: Respark Regen III D
Rare = All versions: Respark Regen IV DX
Epic = All versions: Respark Regen IV EX
Legendary = All versions: Respark Regen V Ark

The higher rarity should always have better stats across the board, not just the delay. The bonuses/cap/recharge should all be better based off of rarity. Trick has the right idea in his explanation in the other post. Now it just needs implemented correctly.

For all the vendors out there that want to get mad at the idea of Ark shields everywhere, get over it! We have plenty of weapon variations to use for making virtual money.

Olaf
04-23-2014, 05:41 AM
What I'd like to see happen with shields is base the complete stat set off of rarity. This will piss off the shield hoarders, but it would make for a better balance imo.

example: Respark Regen
Common = All versions: Respark Regen II D
Uncommon = All versions: Respark Regen III D
Rare = All versions: Respark Regen IV DX
Epic = All versions: Respark Regen IV EX
Legendary = All versions: Respark Regen V Ark

The higher rarity should always have better stats across the board, not just the delay. The bonuses/cap/recharge should all be better based off of rarity. Trick has the right idea in his explanation in the other post. Now it just needs implemented correctly.

For all the vendors out there that want to get mad at the idea of Ark shields everywhere, get over it! We have plenty of weapon variations to use for making virtual money.

I for one would not be happy if this was implemented, would just mean yet ANOTHER kick in the nuts for those of us who love collecting shields of the respark variety. Hey guys, lets turn your OJ Respark Collection into purples and blues.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 06:51 AM
I for one would not be happy if this was implemented, would just mean yet ANOTHER kick in the nuts for those of us who love collecting shields of the respark variety. Hey guys, lets turn your OJ Respark Collection into purples and blues.

You misunderstood my intent. I simply meant that all legendary shields would change into the top tier version. Your respark collection would be better off with the changes I proposed.

Olaf
04-23-2014, 06:54 AM
You misunderstood my intent. I simply meant that all legendary shields would change into the top tier version. Your respark collection would be better off with the changes I proposed.

Sorry Im abit slow today m8 lol. Just getting pee'd off with TrickDempsey changing things that dont need changing or that have been around and a part of the game since before he was here. All the other things they have done I have dealt with (grenades/whole inventory being made useless/saws being nerf which i can understand/my syphon collection being made into a costly bmg collection and many other things), but I think changing shields/weapon stats further especially after spending so much arkforge to get them to where they are now will be the final nail in the coffin 4 me.

BJWyler
04-23-2014, 06:59 AM
You misunderstood my intent. I simply meant that all legendary shields would change into the top tier version. Your respark collection would be better off with the changes I proposed.

You mean sort of like grenades are now - just the overarching categories with the color rarity indicating overall power/effectiveness. I certainly wouldn't mind that. The change to grenades made it a simple matter to see what was better (i.e. blue flashbang > white flashbang). Truth be told, doing that with shields would make it a much better system and eliminate the supposed problem that Trick talked about in his post.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 07:08 AM
Sorry Im abit slow today m8 lol. Just getting pee'd off with TrickDempsey changing things that dont need changing or that have been around and a part of the game since before he was here. All the other things they have done I have dealt with (grenades/whole inventory being made useless/saws being nerf which i can understand/my syphon collection being made into a costly bmg collection and many other things), but I think changing shields/weapon stats further especially after spending so much arkforge to get them to where they are now will be the final nail in the coffin 4 me.

I too have hated most of the changes initially. I've actually come to accept grenades now that the loot function has been sorted out. Still a bug here or there, but overall, the grenade system is decent now.

I've always thought shields should be better balanced. It was always a downer getting a legendary shield with equal or lesser stats then an epic. Take for instance the Rearm or Bullseye shields. They had absolutely no difference in stats for an epic or legendary. Or how often do legendary shields pop up with III D suffixes? Those are actually worse than the epic version IV EX.
With my proposed change, the legendary would be legendary.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 07:10 AM
You mean sort of like grenades are now - just the overarching categories with the color rarity indicating overall power/effectiveness. I certainly wouldn't mind that. The change to grenades made it a simple matter to see what was better (i.e. blue flashbang > white flashbang). Truth be told, doing that with shields would make it a much better system and eliminate the supposed problem that Trick talked about in his post.

Yep! That's exactly how I meant it!

Olaf
04-23-2014, 07:25 AM
I too have hated most of the changes initially. I've actually come to accept grenades now that the loot function has been sorted out. Still a bug here or there, but overall, the grenade system is decent now.

I've always thought shields should be better balanced. It was always a downer getting a legendary shield with equal or lesser stats then an epic. Take for instance the Rearm or Bullseye shields. They had absolutely no difference in stats for an epic or legendary. Or how often do legendary shields pop up with III D suffixes? Those are actually worse than the epic version IV EX.
With my proposed change, the legendary would be legendary.

grenades ive come to accept but it was a low blow as spent alot of time and effort into finding that unicorn fragnova std55z with highest min/max i ever saw. as for your proposal are you suggesting that anyone with a respark regenerator legendary e.g. 25/50/75% it would be converted into respark regenerator v ark's? i wouldnt be cool with that either and that would be again the final nail in the coffin for me and im sure alot of others who spent a year working towards a goal of acquiring that respark regenerator v ark.

BJWyler
04-23-2014, 07:33 AM
grenades ive come to accept but it was a low blow as spent alot of time and effort into finding that unicorn fragnova std55z with highest min/max i ever saw. as for your proposal are you suggesting that anyone with a respark regenerator legendary e.g. 25/50/75% it would be converted into respark regenerator v ark's? i wouldnt be cool with that either and that would be again the final nail in the coffin for me and im sure alot of others who spent a year working towards a goal of acquiring that respark regenerator v ark.

Why wouldn't that be cool? It would still be the best Respark Regen shield out there. Now however, it would be much simpler for those who can't or don't want to min/max. They won't have to look at stats - they could just see a Purple Repark Regen and an Orange Repark Regen and know the orange gives them better stats across the board.

The only comparison and tactical thought that would need to be give would be comparing two shield of the same rarity (such as Basic Respark and Respark Regen) and decide which trade-offs in stats are more appealing. Obviously the Regen has the health bonus, the the basic would have a better state or different bonus (such as Nano resist). Otherwise, they would still be the best shields out there in their categories and still be a reward for the time spent getting them.

SirServed
04-23-2014, 07:35 AM
I have no issue with the way shields have been treated so far. The real underlying cause was that in the old system you rarely got to see a shield's effect put to use. Doing PvE content and my shield got broken? My first reaction was a heal stim or death happened. I started using an Ironclad V due to the fact that most shield effects are only marginally useful at best. The only thing that stands out about shields are capacity, regen rate and restart time. Now that health pools have been boosted, shield effects stand a chance to be more useful if the bonuses themselves are looked at and aren't so difficult to get hold of.


Regen only helps once your shield comes back.
Rearm is a whopping 1%. (That means with the highest ammo reserve weapon, you get 5 rounds. 5.)
Reloader has potential to be useful but messes with Pumped Up.
Bullseye is REALLY rare and I only use during WM.
Berserker's fire rate is nice but 5-10% of an already low number is still a low number.


At over 5400 EGO, there are still shield stats I've never personally come across. It would be nice to have a bonus shuffle of some sort with the effects that come on our shields, I'd guess the same way you can reroll weapon mastery. The base version of the shield (D, DX, EX, Ark) would be the determining factor as to which tier of the bonus is received.

Olaf
04-23-2014, 07:47 AM
Why wouldn't that be cool? It would still be the best Respark Regen shield out there. Now however, it would be much simpler for those who can't or don't want to min/max. They won't have to look at stats - they could just see a Purple Repark Regen and an Orange Repark Regen and know the orange gives them better stats across the board.

The only comparison and tactical thought that would need to be give would be comparing two shield of the same rarity (such as Basic Respark and Respark Regen) and decide which trade-offs in stats are more appealing. Obviously the Regen has the health bonus, the the basic would have a better state or different bonus (such as Nano resist). Otherwise, they would still be the best shields out there in their categories and still be a reward for the time spent getting them.

From what I can understand, it is being suggested that anyone with an orange respark regenerator 25-75% would have their shield converted into the respark regenerator v ark 100%. I wouldn't be cool with that, probably because of selfish reasons but again... I spent a year working hard to get a respark regenerator v ark (that was the 1 item I wanted and worked to get from the very day it was first posted on the forum as being an available item - noone knew 100%'s existed until someone pulled one and posted it in the xbox trade section). It would turn one of, if not the most valuable item in the game into a common commodity (ALOT of people have Respark Regenerator 25-75%'s but very few people have the 100% counterpart). Sorry if this comes across as selfish I just could never agree on that, too long and too much work went into getting that item.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 07:58 AM
grenades ive come to accept but it was a low blow as spent alot of time and effort into finding that unicorn fragnova std55z with highest min/max i ever saw. as for your proposal are you suggesting that anyone with a respark regenerator legendary e.g. 25/50/75% it would be converted into respark regenerator v ark's? i wouldnt be cool with that either and that would be again the final nail in the coffin for me and im sure alot of others who spent a year working towards a goal of acquiring that respark regenerator v ark.

There was nothing special in the way you may have obtained your Ark shield. You got lucky with the RNG, and anyone else that pulled a lesser version didn't get lucky. I've pulled a decent amount of Ark shields. The bonuses are not significant enough to restrict them to only a handful of people in the community. The loot tables would be cleaner, and shield choice more effective.
I too had the top tier grenades, and other than bragging rights and suicide, they are much better with the new streamlined approach.

Critical Errors
04-23-2014, 08:11 AM
From what I can understand, it is being suggested that anyone with an orange respark regenerator 25-75% would have their shield converted into the respark regenerator v ark 100%. I wouldn't be cool with that, probably because of selfish reasons but again... I spent a year working hard to get a respark regenerator v ark (that was the 1 item I wanted and worked to get from the very day it was first posted on the forum as being an available item - noone knew 100%'s existed until someone pulled one and posted it in the xbox trade section). It would turn one of, if not the most valuable item in the game into a common commodity (ALOT of people have Respark Regenerator 25-75%'s but very few people have the 100% counterpart). Sorry if this comes across as selfish I just could never agree on that, too long and too much work went into getting that item.

Yes, those reasons for not supporting the change would be selfish. And I completely understand how it would hit you hard if more than the four Regen Arks in-game would be of less value. But we've all been there, done that with the revamp of weapons. Sure it sucked watching our million scrip Saws turn worthless, but this change wouldn't change your shield. It would simply level the playing field. That's why I used the most sought after shield as an example. Your shield loses no value at all for function, only for resale.