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View Full Version : PVP from a Veterans point of view - Unbiassed opinions.



Error404
05-12-2014, 09:21 AM
Okay, so, as it stands, there are 6 major trends in PVP that are the 'go to's - That is, if you're not playing one of these or have these people on your team, you're probably not going to win. Now, argue all you will about ho you're 'good with 'x' and do fine with 'y' because of 'z'.'

This post hopes to address (And advise) on PVP loadouts that kill any chance of PVP ever being remotely balanced.

Zaggers/Sawed Offs - Love 'em, completely, absolutely love 'em, but that doesn't change the fact that these guns offer too much in the way of ability to spam ego power. However, at the current state of play, sawed offs in any iteration do NOT need a nerf, however, there's a point I'll get to nearer the end of this post.

Big Boomers - Another great gun, but pathetic in PVP, you shoot remotely in the area the enemy is going to be, you reload, they die. This gun has far, far too much damage potential. Fix? Drop the damage radius OR damage drastically. There is no reason to use ANY other detonator in any other game mode outside of co ops where the go to detonator is a Ground Pounder, not because of damage potential, but because of flaws in coding allowing it to damage past damage mitigation thresholds.

Surge Bolters/Splitshots - A one shot kill body shot. No no no. This is a SNIPER RIFLE. No gun, without a headshot or some solid aiming should be able to one shot kill. This gun allows anyone to hold the trigger, wait for a red circle to appear, let go, get a kill. Solution? Simple. Reduce the weapon damage but up the critical multiplier so they have the same damage potential. Headshot should obviously still be a one shot kill, as should be the case with any sniper.

Cankers - Autoaim, high damage, long range, continues to do damage even if the player shooting you dies. - This gun has almost no solutions to making it a 'fair' PVP gun. As it standards, a Canker is almost always the secondary goto gun any player will use, simply because of how rediculously overpowered they are. The only remote solution I can think of that would begin to fix Cankers would be to drop the range on them to almost a third of what they are now.

Precise Chaos - The Big Boomers little brother - There comes a point where bunny hopping around like a total idiot is a valid tactic, but when that involves a player jumping round like a rabbit with a spark plug up its *** barfing out explosives, things get a little rediculous - This game isn't Quake, rocket launchers, yes, they should do damage, but there comes a point where numbers get a little silly. This, without a single doubt, is the case here.

Cloak - There is no reason to use anything but cloak in PVP. Perfect invisibility, shield recharge and a 30% damage boost used with the correct perks, furthermore, add in a lack of ways to combat cloak and we are left with the 'ultimate' power. It's boring, it's pathetic, it's easy mode. PVP has become a 24/7 game of hide and seek instead of seek and destroy. Fix? Reduce cloak duration base, drop the shield recharge and give it to Decoy and furthermore, make them at least somewhat visible.

Okay, so. I said I'd get to my point on Sawed Offs and why they are still a problem.

Ego On Reload/Pumped Up - Okay, so, these two things alone are enough to make Cloak more of a problem than it should be. A player with both of these has their ego power back within 2-4 reloads, in the case of sawed offs/detonators/Rocket Launcher/And rarely, north star flares, each of these can reload so fast that most ego powers are recharged in approximately 4 seconds or less. Solution? This one is easy. Do the same with Pumped Up/Ego on Reload weapon roll and Ego On Reload weapon mastery as was done with timed out. Add a 5-10 second cool down on all of these abilities, this way, a person can never almost immediately re-enter a skill no sooner has it cooled off.

I know this post is going to piss off a lot of skilless players, but, after over a year of gameplay, it's about time PVP was balanced in a manner that any player with any loadout should stand a -better- chance than just being a free kill to the closest cloaked player that has been cloaked almost the entire match.

I am an ego 5791 having played since 4 days after the game came out, I speak of weapons I myself use and specifically the major players of the PVP community use. I won't lie in saying many of these weapons are good, but there comes a point where you have to admit that options in PVP are limited if you want to even begin to survive.

This all comes from an EU 360 player, I can't speak for PVP on other clients, but, on 360 eu, it's a depressing problem.

SethC
05-12-2014, 09:31 AM
I just got gang banged by a bunch of ghosts with zaggers a few minutes ago...not fun. 19/25 on the Echelon dailies, after that I'm never touching PvP again.

B_Draco
05-12-2014, 09:31 AM
I'd say you just about summed up what the balances could and should be. Back when Trion nerfed the shotguns, cankers had 8 or 12 meter homing range, nobody really used it because of that. Now it has 30 meters, so yeah I agree with nerfing it's range back to what it was.

Pumped up for sure needs a 5-10 second cooldown, I'm tired of having to play hide 'n seek with cloakers... If I don't do it too, they'll just 1 shot me with a zagger while I'm trying to find 'em...

The real issue that a lot of us(at least I hope) would like to see fixed is total invisibility. Once you cloak, your totally invisible... No blur of your moving image, no nothin' to see you... Decoy/sensor sweep does jack **** if the guy uses pumped up with a 45% speed boosted 0.0 reload zagger/nano fragger...

Otherwise as a PvPer myself(but not that good of one), these changes would be spot on.

mr8liner
05-12-2014, 09:40 AM
So, you want pretty much all guns nerfed so that you can have a better experiance in pvp? There are very few people doing pvp anymore and to nerf the guns is just a bad idea.

If they nerf anything it should be the 0.0 reload crap. But then again they are what you like so you do not want them touched.

Now, if these weapon nerfs would only come into play while you were in pvp I can see that as a good thing maybe. But with Trions track records they would mess all guns up more then they would help them.

The few times that I have gone into pvp, all i see ( or don't see) are people with zaggers or 0.0 sawed offs and being cloaked most of the time. It takes no skill to kill someone if that person cannot see you.

A fix to pvp. NO perks, stim, spikes or ego powers. Just the skill of the players. That would be something I could get into. But that is something that would never happen either.

One last thing, everyone who had or used a 0.0 reload shotgun cried when the SB were overpowered. Why, because the ones using the 0.0 reload couldn't get any kills.... PVP sucks

Error404
05-12-2014, 09:43 AM
So, you want pretty much all guns nerfed so that you can have a better experiance in pvp? There are very few people doing pvp anymore and to nerf the guns is just a bad idea.

If they nerf anything it should be the 0.0 reload crap. But then again they are what you like so you do not want them touched.

Now, if these weapon nerfs would only come into play while you were in pvp I can see that as a good thing maybe. But with Trions track records they would mess all guns up more then they would help them.

The few times that I have gone into pvp, all i see ( or don't see) are people with zaggers or 0.0 sawed offs and being cloaked most of the time. It takes no skill to kill someone if that person cannot see you.

A fix to pvp. NO perks, stim, spikes or ego powers. Just the skill of the players. That would be something I could get into. But that is something that would never happen either.

One last thing, everyone who had or used a 0.0 reload shotgun cried when the SB were overpowered. Why, because the ones using the 0.0 reload couldn't get any kills.... PVP sucks

0.0 is a problem for all weapons that can roll it, not specifically sawed offs. Targetting sawed offs alone because one gun in the set can more commonly roll that particular ability set is silly. The problem with Zaggers is less the 0.0 but the 0.0 in combination with Pumped up and the Purple Ego on Reload roll, allowing them to get back into an ego power within seconds, this is addressed by a nerf to Ego On Reload/Pumped up.

As it is...I'd love a game mode that only used your shield and guns, ignoring everything else...That would really make things interesting, but then, we'd have the problem of cankers, big boomers and speed boost more than we do now.

MadMoxxiFavGun
05-12-2014, 10:10 AM
This game is more like quake / unreal tournament 2004 than most console shooters today. Rockets should be the most powerful weapon in the game. It is sad that a frag nade is stronger than a single shot from a rocket or big boomer. The problem isnt the base damage of them. It is the case for the LMGS, SMGS, and ARS. They do not do enough dmg. You should be able to die from 2-3 shots from a big boomer / rocket. They imo dont become OP until you add in cloak and the 30% more dmg. Before they turned my beloved triple dmg Frontier Battle Rifle into poop, it felt amazing like how a AR should. I was two bursting everyone. If they bumped up the dmg on those guns it would even out imo. To be able to spray a pulsar and kill before a guy got off two big boom shots or 2 rockets imo, would feel alot better.


Also were is the mention of those dreadful weps, spanner trapper and sludge rocket. both those are broken. cant even roll off the poop shoes.

Nefarious
05-12-2014, 01:52 PM
Working off of OPs list...

Zaggers- Trion has said they are not going to change the rolls for Zaggers which is bull ****. But that doesn't mean they cant change the function of Nano Fraggers to make up for it. But certainly if Trion just fixes the big mistake that was made with the Reload Rolls then ideas to fix a simple thing wouldn't be needed. Trion doing nothing though is the worst thing of all.

A really dumb solution without changing the rolls of the Zagger itself could be done by increasing the recoil over all for Nano Fraggers by a lot. Normal Nano Fraggers wouldn't be affected by the idea of recoil jerking the gun up after it shoots since its one shot then done, it has to reload. But to Zaggers it would stop the whole thing of continuously shooting one shot at one spot one after another. It getting recoiled up drastically would have a player needing realign it giving it some leeway to its senseless over powered spamming.

Such recoil on Nano Fraggers then would give a new meaning to actually using the Blast Fragger (the other Ark Breaker sawed off that no one ever uses or even knows about) since its rolls specialize in less recoil. So one thing gets toned down all while another gets toned up and giving a meaning to be used.

But just owning up and fixing the Zaggers rolls directly and sawed off shotguns in general is 100% better and easier on everything and everyone! Go directly to the problem, the rolls and fix them.

Ego Recharge on Reload/Speed boost on reload- The perk Pumped Up and the purple roll of 10% Ego Recharge on Full reload should no doubt have a cool down times.

Considering the perk Blood Lust has a cool down time of 5 seconds only earning 3% Ego charge when actually doing something then the simple action of earning a Ego Charge on Reload should take that into consideration.

The Purple roll of 10% Ego Recharge on Full reload should have a 20 second cool down. And Pumped Up (caps at 15%) should have 30 second cool down. These 2 should not be stand alone things that over shadow the need of all the other perks that are made to shave down Ego Recharge times, they should supplement them.

Speed Boost being eared from the simple action of just reloading your gun is one of the dumbest things in Defiance. A reasonable solution is to change the master roll of speed boosts on reload to instead being speed boost on critical kill.

Earing abilities from spamming reload is dumb. If I wrote a review for Defiance and explained just this then readers who don't know would be like "wtf? just reload your gun over and over again?". Its lame and its a turn off.

Big Boomers- I agree with dropping the damage drastically. Ive been saying this forever. This is old but the same concept still holds.

A solution to detonator balancing is to have it so that the bigger the explosive radius a detonator has the weaker said detonator is. As they are now there is no balance with them. Does there really need to be a detonator with 7.2+ blast radius that also have 2500+ dmg while another detonator has a 2.5+ blast radius and has 1200+ dmg?

Shouldn't the detonator that needs to be a more of a direct hit benefit from having higher dmg while the indirect detonators with larger blasts radiuses have over all lower dmg since they can hit targets 5x easier?

Surge Bolters- Its simple, with all the benefits the charge shot gets its charge up should take longer. Its not going to affect its performance in PvE but it would put a gap between all the easy-go shots getting ripped off one after another in PvP.

Canker- Reduce its its rate of fire by alot. No one would see a difference in performance with such a change in PvE. The DoTs dmg is going to add up over time on PvE enemies anyway, but such changes will slow down the easy progress of just lighting someone up real quick with a few auto hit infector shots for easy kills.

Precise Chaos- I wrote this on what I think, might as well paste it.

The FRC Rocket Pod is just a poor mans version of the VOT Longshot Cannon/Precise Chaos. They have the same stats except that the Longshot Cannons rockets travel faster. If the Longshot's rockets benefit from 2x faster projectile travel speed then they should yield 2x less to blast radius to make up for it.

Cloak- Trion went against the simple idea of how Cloak has worked in all other video games and made Cloak 100% invisible instead of giving it a shimmer just like every other video game that has ever featured cloak. And in turn we have this PvP mess. Cloak is the flag ship in which makes PvP lame.

Give cloak a shimmer like every other video game has. A lot of other games have proven that a shimmery cloak is not over powered and its not underpowered...its just right.

Trion-More players then not want balance. They want their choices to have meaning. To know what they like to use has actually use. Not having a few select things in the game be so obviously over powered and broken that they make all other choices obsolete.

And not addressing it is horrible. Just say something so we know that you know this stuff is unbalanced. It gives players a hope point on the horizon. As it is now its just endless wasteland without a fix in sight.

cary2010haha
05-12-2014, 10:34 PM
Zaggers/Sawed Offs - Love 'em, completely, absolutely love 'em, but that doesn't change the fact that these guns offer too much in the way of ability to spam ego power. However, at the current state of play, sawed offs in any iteration do NOT need a nerf, however, there's a point I'll get to nearer the end of this post.



Zagger OJ can't be change as they are belong to DLC2 paid content and need lots of effort to gain, if you remove/nerf the ego recharge+speed boost effect, it's just like other sawed-off, so why those player who have it(i didn't got it from 1.2-1.5) need to input so much effort for zagger?


fair? only in 1 pvp game? that's not fair to those have no life grinder.




Big Boomers - Another great gun, but pathetic in PVP, you shoot remotely in the area the enemy is going to be, you reload, they die. This gun has far, far too much damage potential. Fix? Drop the damage radius OR damage drastically. There is no reason to use ANY other detonator in any other game mode outside of co ops where the go to detonator is a Ground Pounder, not because of damage potential, but because of flaws in coding allowing it to damage past damage mitigation thresholds.




it's not the god now, auto lobber is 10 times effective than boomer in PVP, i duno why.

and big boomer do less damage than basic detonator in one clip.

That's the balance, small clip with high power rounds.

but in pvp high dph is always better than dps ,right? thats why you feel it unbalance.





Surge Bolters/Splitshots - A one shot kill body shot. No no no. This is a SNIPER RIFLE. No gun, without a headshot or some solid aiming should be able to one shot kill. This gun allows anyone to hold the trigger, wait for a red circle to appear, let go, get a kill. Solution? Simple. Reduce the weapon damage but up the critical multiplier so they have the same damage potential. Headshot should obviously still be a one shot kill, as should be the case with any sniper.


Out dated weaponry, now days Surge Bolters are weak snipers, it only take superiority when 1 V 1, too slow too weak, damage is bad.

And war is not 1v1, i love stack together and move, and Surge Bolter player just don't want to take risk by ranked after shot.

Now days sniper kings are Ranger and quick repeater.



Cankers - Autoaim, high damage, long range, continues to do damage even if the player shooting you dies. - This gun has almost no solutions to making it a 'fair' PVP gun. As it standards, a Canker is almost always the secondary goto gun any player will use, simply because of how rediculously overpowered they are. The only remote solution I can think of that would begin to fix Cankers would be to drop the range on them to almost a third of what they are now.


You must a alone wolf, Canker is powerful king if you just want 1V1, but canker have a big weakness, no matter how many canker focus fire on one target, they will only take max 3 stack dots, and if you play large grouped PVP games, you will know the VBI rifle or tachmag is much more powerful and effective in PVP, and don;t say they can have nano








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And for all these post why all past the slugger shogun and talk about it? it have a damage pair up to Precise Chaos, can kill everyone in 2 body shot


2 shot, no travel time and better fire rate than a bolt-action sniper.

Magick
05-13-2014, 02:05 AM
you are forgetting 1 shot weapons that have double ego on reload or speed boost ! It is just not zaggers you can do the trick with anything that has 1 shot and insta-load... so stop trying to just make out the zagger to be that weapon. yea nerfing time out did absolutely nothing lol like anyone needed it but noobs so go ahead and give th

Magick
05-13-2014, 02:07 AM
you are forgetting 1 shot weapons that have double ego on reload or speed boost ! It is just not zaggers you can do the trick with anything that has 1 shot and insta-load... so stop trying to just make out the zagger to be that weapon. yea nerfing time out did absolutely nothing lol like anyone needed it but noobs so go ahead and give them glitchy smgs and bmgs because they need em right...

sorry somehow double post..

duction
05-13-2014, 03:12 AM
Yup there are LOTS of guns that make 0.0 not just zaggers, I can't see them changing anything just for pvp as its so unpopular.


What does need looking at first is bonfires and incinerators, you can set alight somone and they poor guy doesn't even know he's on fire! It doesn't show you on fire and dieing and untill you notice shield and health dropping it's already taken all ya shield and most of ya health, by that time you roll but they have hit you again. Rinse and repeat. Only time you can see you are being damaged by fire but still can't see it is when you are cloaked and hit and it decloaks you and you flash. How can you be damaged by fire and not see any flames or anything?

Also some detonators have the bug where you go invisible while fireing the weapon and jumping.

This needs fixing still, very annoying.

rydda
05-13-2014, 05:41 AM
Im sorry but you need to find what your best at op weapon must go up against other op weapon.
fight fire with fire. Some pvpers are sneaky, some are in your face the weapons on the list are the most upgraded, look for weapons. Think about your tactic an big boomers alot of thought go's in to where I need to set them on the ground set a trap an with artillery back up for the team. Yes I use big boomer not to be sad at aiming but to be the demolition expert on the team.
Cankers are like ground assualt on the team same as zaggers.
snipers are all ways finding a good spot.
All the weapons you list compete to be #1 in pvp you dont see much ar/saw/smg but some player do great work with them.

I will say I dont like cloaker matches in pvp but I can find them like a ww2 destroyer ship hunting subs dep charges my only defense from cloakers.

jackdaws_1999
05-13-2014, 05:50 AM
Error man, you know I get along with you, but there are some glaring problems with the above sugestions:

By soley Nurfing guns for pvp, you screw pve right up. As it stands, we NEED god guns for pve... that results in screwed PVP.

The ONLY solution for pvp is a simple one.

Since we play as a Echelon Merc, we should have only access to Echelon stuff. Make it that we have NO EGO ability, NO Perks, Only BASE White guns with NO difference between them. If you want to do fair PVP, make EVERY ONE Equal. Sure give us classes with different guns, but NO shields, No AUTO AIM guns (infectors and BMGs).

If people want a new mode to test OUR characters out in pvp, have a special mode thats all about the guns, Egos, and Perk loadouts... That way we can wear our own damn outfits we paid good money for/worked our ***** off to get.

I am sick of people crying "FOWL" over guns in PVP, and trion listening and screwing PvE. If you want FAIR PvP... make everyone equal, then its all about knowledge of the area, and skill. I wouldnt want to see a Battlefail, Call of Snooty, or Cheat Souls being defiances version of pvp, but they could make it unique by giving us an Echelon based pvp, and a toon based pvp. That way we can have people choose if they want to fight with God guns, or if they want to fight with skill.

jackdaws_1999
05-13-2014, 06:05 AM
Oh, and if your talking about crazy OP stuff in the game?...

your missing Stims and Spikes...

these SHOULD NEVER be allowed in pvp... please its hard enough to strip a god shield with damage mitigation perks stacking up the wazoo without some scumspawn popping a heal stim or protection spike just to make them that more difficault to kill.... Screw Stims, Screw Spikes, Screw Hatchlings...

Auto Aim Takes NO SKILL, popping a health stim is for cats, protection spikes are for chickens... but then you already know that... Skill involved in this game is finding the latest way trion have broken pvp... and exploiting it till everyone knows and finding the next one.

duction
05-13-2014, 06:07 AM
You are onto something jackdaws, nerf pvp and it ruins the pve game that EVERYONE plays,, I have now only realised how much damage it is doing.

As a clan we do pvp with no ego powers and hand guns only or smgs only... And guess what? They are the matches that are wayyyy more fun and you laugh a lot more when playing :)

I'd vote for making pvp load outs set classes and to stop nerfing guns!

Pandur
05-13-2014, 06:24 AM
I've been doing some PVP for Ego points, it is totally broken, but frankly it's 90% broken due to cloak.
Remove or fundamentally alter how cloak works in pvp and you fixed a good part of it without even touching weapons.

Until then though i'll stick to cloaked shotgun to the face, because i want to get the puirsuits done asap and then never look back.

duction
05-13-2014, 06:36 AM
You do realise if they get rid of cloak one shot snipers and big boomers/precise chaos and infectors will be the only guns used, all short range guns will be flat out pointless.

Just saying.

dramaQkarri
05-13-2014, 06:56 AM
I agree with jackdaws. PVP could work if ALL upgrades, perks, everything was stripped away. Use whatever weapons you want but when you enter PVP all you have is the base version. If everyone was at base level the only thing that would remain is skill. And then we'd see I'm actually NOT GOOD AT ALL. Of course I know this but some others that seem good might actually find out the truth when going straight up in a fair fight.

otonagamer
05-13-2014, 06:57 AM
So me spamming you with Sludge RL is okay? You are not mad?

I use bio, bug guns and Decoy to counter cloak. You can also use electric to decloak. So electric detonator kind of thing would be welcome as another counter cloak measure. Bug gun is key to counter cloak by tagging them.

The real problem in PvP is not Cloak or OP. We should get rid of "25 head shots" or "20 vehicle destruction" pursuits or achievement. Those pursuits(and contracts) simply destroy PvP because people just ignore winning and keep camping for pursuit or daily contract. You see a lot of clan players who doesn't play PvP seriously and just kill each other for pursuits. They are more problem then OP. Contracts should be just simple "participate in team deathmatch/C&H/SW games ** times."

I think PvP is mostly fine. I've never used one shot kill weapons like Surge Volter or Nano Fragger with Cloak but I'm still having fun playing a role as counter cloak. Though I don't mind adding more conventional PvP game mode for the variety.

Nefarious
05-13-2014, 10:35 PM
Everything pointed out in this thread are majorly unbalanced in huge ways. Specific things that undermine nearly everything in their own categories and then some. Fixing these things in no way shape or form would ruin PvE. These things are not only over powered in the realm of PvP. The very same properties they have carry over between PvP and PvE all the same. These are unbalanced things.

TAG
05-13-2014, 10:38 PM
1 shot kills drive me insane that are not skill shots. Makes having a shield pointless.

rydda
05-14-2014, 04:38 AM
Error man, you know I get along with you, but there are some glaring problems with the above sugestions:

By soley Nurfing guns for pvp, you screw pve right up. As it stands, we NEED god guns for pve... that results in screwed PVP.

The ONLY solution for pvp is a simple one.

Since we play as a Echelon Merc, we should have only access to Echelon stuff. Make it that we have NO EGO ability, NO Perks, Only BASE White guns with NO difference between them. If you want to do fair PVP, make EVERY ONE Equal. Sure give us classes with different guns, but NO shields, No AUTO AIM guns (infectors and BMGs).

If people want a new mode to test OUR characters out in pvp, have a special mode thats all about the guns, Egos, and Perk loadouts... That way we can wear our own damn outfits we paid good money for/worked our ***** off to get.

I am sick of people crying "FOWL" over guns in PVP, and trion listening and screwing PvE. If you want FAIR PvP... make everyone equal, then its all about knowledge of the area, and skill. I wouldnt want to see a Battlefail, Call of Snooty, or Cheat Souls being defiances version of pvp, but they could make it unique by giving us an Echelon based pvp, and a toon based pvp. That way we can have people choose if they want to fight with God guns, or if they want to fight with skill.

ya I know but we had some of them from day one just trying to put a different veiw to them I still get mad with cloakers that have zagger but at lease I have a fighting chance now, if you learn what they are doing then you can fight back.

rydda
05-14-2014, 04:52 AM
Upgrade your weapons an shields use your stims yes use them spikes are not helping so forget it, it took alot but can stay alive after getting hit with the canker.
Keep your freinds close and keep your enemies closer. Im not the best but I can still go teo to teo some times with the pvper pro I dont like to give up I will keep dieing to find a weakness in them op weapons or not, op shield or not theres a weakness in how they player.

hate to say it after all the weapons the bmg will only be mess with or nerf for low ego players.
thats what im seeing so far.

drackiller
05-14-2014, 05:03 AM
Upgrade your weapons an shields use your stims yes use them spikes are not helping so forget it, it took alot but can stay alive after getting hit with the canker.
Keep your freinds close and keep your enemies closer. Im not the best but I can still go teo to teo some times with the pvper pro I dont like to give up I will keep dieing to find a weakness in them op weapons or not, op shield or not theres a weakness in how they player.

hate to say it after all the weapons the bmg will only be mess with or nerf for low ego players.
thats what im seeing so far.
Rydda, one of this days i`ll go to NA server m8, and we will have some fun ;)