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View Full Version : were T4 lockboxs nerfed along with T2&3?



Slayer Slayn
07-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Seems like I used to pull Arkforge (not much but some) every other lockbox (2 to 3 boxes) since this last patch though seems like I'm back to only getting nade drops every other box. did they ninjanerf the t4 drop rates along with the T2&3 drop amounts?

dramaQkarri
07-12-2014, 07:02 PM
Not only did all lockboxes get a good nerf, arkforge dropping from events has also been reduced. We all know why.

Alastar
07-12-2014, 07:02 PM
I would regularly go 10-15 t4s with no AF prepatch so......yeah.

Griffix8
07-12-2014, 07:03 PM
Events were nerfed too? Geez...I didn't like going to those but it was a quick way of getting some AF...now I have no reason to do those now.

dramaQkarri
07-12-2014, 07:12 PM
Well there's very little arkforge. I did the daily contract for Von Bach and got 6 keycodes and ONE arkforge out of it. I think I had 33K points or something. Check out this thread:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?167229-Stealth-Patch-*Fix*

Chump Norris
07-12-2014, 07:54 PM
I opened 6 T4s since the update and received a whopping 20 AF. Ill go back to hoarding salvage and using keys on T2 boxes when I get full.

PseudoCool
07-12-2014, 07:56 PM
it was ALL nerfed.. lock boxes and event rewards. They've turned this game into a P2W game.. you want to progress anything, you'd either better be uber-patient and sit on every thread of AF you've got, or you'd better dip into your pockets in the bit store to buy enough to get things sorted. And let's not forget, you may BUY the arkforge in the store, but what you get is still random. May as well go to the local casino and plop $20 in the slot machine.

Makes me wonder if Trion has a gambling license?

hardy83
07-12-2014, 08:12 PM
Really dumb if it was intentional....But it's hardly pay to win.
It's not like you can't continue to easily play and beat the game if you don't have any arkforge.
You can't upgrade or reroll your weapons, but you can get new ones and other stuff.

Dumb. Yes.
Pay to win. No.

Mushbeeguy
07-12-2014, 11:06 PM
Really dumb if it was intentional....But it's hardly pay to win.
It's not like you can't continue to easily play and beat the game if you don't have any arkforge.
You can't upgrade or reroll your weapons, but you can get new ones and other stuff.

Dumb. Yes.
Pay to win. No.

I have to +1 this.

It is disingenuous to say they are adjusting the AF drops on T3 and T2 but in reality drop all of the boxes. But it is what we have come to expect.

Bonehead
07-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Dumb. Yes.
Pay to win. No.

Everyone has their own opinion on this and I won't get into the "right" or "wrong" of it at all but, If you can buy a score boost of 50% with cash, and you can, that is by definition, pay to win in my opinion.

cmpowell
07-13-2014, 01:05 AM
I believe the language used was bring t2 and t3 boxes in line with t4. so yes ninjanerfed them all

drackiller
07-13-2014, 01:42 AM
Bought nearly 50 T2s yesterday and i got zilch...:(

Heartlight
07-13-2014, 01:52 AM
Just bought 10 T2's and got 60 AF. (wtf? really!) Since the patch, I've only bought T2's and this brings my total to 100 AF for 70 T2's. However, there were only 3 batches (always get 10 each time) that had AF... a 20, 20 and this 60. That left 5 batches where I was wondering oh where oh where my poor AF had gone. Seems the Gods of RNGs still exist.

tartaluxos
07-13-2014, 04:13 AM
Everyone has their own opinion on this and I won't get into the "right" or "wrong" of it at all but, If you can buy a score boost of 50% with cash, and you can, that is by definition, pay to win in my opinion.

yeah thats right.

Hail to Destiny ! When the Beta will be released (17th July for PS hardwares and 23rd July for Microsoft ones) defiance will loose a lot of peeps. Trion deserved that.
Destiny will crush you Trick, and I will enjoy that.

BJWyler
07-13-2014, 04:36 AM
Really dumb if it was intentional....But it's hardly pay to win.
It's not like you can't continue to easily play and beat the game if you don't have any arkforge.
You can't upgrade or reroll your weapons, but you can get new ones and other stuff.

Dumb. Yes.
Pay to win. No.

I am getting close to disagreeing. Technically still not pay to win, but Trion is treading dangerously close to the Allods Online border of Pay to Win. I get they need to do something to fund the game, but at this point, even SWTOR has a better cash shop model than they are implementing here. Personally speaking, the only thing keeping them from crossing the line at this point is the fact that my lower EGO weapons are still relatively effective for taking down the bad guys. However, I have been noticing a distinct difference in scoring since 1.5 dropped. I used to regularly score in the top 10 of events and be a high scorer in co-ops and such. That is no longer the case, especially when I am using my lower EGO stuff (and I am only talking 800-1200 below my 5801 level).

Fuzzy
07-13-2014, 04:50 AM
Well there's very little arkforge. I did the daily contract for Von Bach and got 6 keycodes and ONE arkforge out of it. I think I had 33K points or something. Check out this thread:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?167229-Stealth-Patch-*Fix*



I have not seen any drop in AF from events.
Every event (various Arkfalls, some from the beginning, some only at the endboss, WM wins, Co-Ops, conflict sites), everything gave me the correct amount of AF.
You get one AF for every 10k score after 35k. I got that.
If you don't get it, i'd say make screenshots/photos of it and send it over to Trion. MAYBE (yeah, it is a big maybe), it is a bug that is not happening all the time/only at specific events/only on a specific platform.
I don't see this happening as I said in the mentioned thread also.

I hate to say it but please,before spreading rumors that something got nerfed, check it out if it happens all the time and give Trion the benefit of the doubt that it may be in fact just an unfortunate bug.

Kanah
07-13-2014, 04:52 AM
Everyone has their own opinion on this and I won't get into the "right" or "wrong" of it at all but, If you can buy a score boost of 50% with cash, and you can, that is by definition, pay to win in my opinion.

It's pretty hard to argue that it's not pay to win when you can flat-out pay to inflate your score. A boost for rewards (keys and forge) would be more acceptable than score.

Ruinne
07-13-2014, 05:15 AM
Dumb. Yes.
Pay to win. No.

Endgame resources have been made much more scarce in order to sell more of them in a cash shop, that's pay to win. But heck, if that version isn't pay to win enough for you, how about the fact that you can buy a higher score. That's absolutely and unequivocally a pay to win system.

It still doesn't bother me much, this is Defiance, and winning in Defiance just means more lottery tickets than the next guy.

Now if the store started selling mastery kits and bonus kits that allowed you to cherry pick your quality and mastery bonuses, that would be too much.

TheOz
07-13-2014, 07:31 AM
yeah thats right.

Hail to Destiny ! When the Beta will be released (17th July for PS hardwares and 23rd July for Microsoft ones) defiance will loose a lot of peeps. Trion deserved that.
Destiny will crush you Trick, and I will enjoy that.

I hear you about Destiny. I just wish that Destiny's public events were on the same scale as Defiance's, it is the only thing it doesn't have that I will miss. It is still the most fun in Defiance to have all of those Arkhunters fighting the monolith together or whatever last stage public event you choose.

hardy83
07-13-2014, 08:18 AM
Endgame resources have been made much more scarce in order to sell more of them in a cash shop, that's pay to win. But heck, if that version isn't pay to win enough for you, how about the fact that you can buy a higher score. That's absolutely and unequivocally a pay to win system.

It still doesn't bother me much, this is Defiance, and winning in Defiance just means more lottery tickets than the next guy.

Now if the store started selling mastery kits and bonus kits that allowed you to cherry pick your quality and mastery bonuses, that would be too much.

Maybe if the scores meant anything important. All they mean is a better quality chance of loot. They are not permanent scores or anything.
I mean if if WERE permanent leaderboards for things, yes, it would totally be pay to win.

As for PvP, I suppose it dances on that line a little more than it should, but I mean....PvP in this game....Lol
Not really pay to win though, but....PvP in this game....Lol

I would agree a shop item for picking specific mastery rolls would be pretty much pay to win.

Ruinne
07-13-2014, 09:00 AM
Maybe if the scores meant anything important. All they mean is a better quality chance of loot. They are not permanent scores or anything.
I mean if if WERE permanent leaderboards for things, yes, it would totally be pay to win.

As for PvP, I suppose it dances on that line a little more than it should, but I mean....PvP in this game....Lol
Not really pay to win though, but....PvP in this game....Lol

I would agree a shop item for picking specific mastery rolls would be pretty much pay to win.


So now in the miraculously moving target of P2W games like Defiance, you're arguing that it's not P2W if winning doesn't matter? Then arguing that if you pay to win at parts of the game that you don't like that means it's not pay to win?

It's pay to win, we all know it, it's just happens that this prize is like the prize you win for throwing a dart at a balloon three feet way from you at the carnival. It's a 1'X2' poster of a cat hanging from a tree branch framed with cheap plastic.

hardy83
07-13-2014, 09:21 AM
So now in the miraculously moving target of P2W games like Defiance, you're arguing that it's not P2W if winning doesn't matter? Then arguing that if you pay to win at parts of the game that you don't like that means it's not pay to win?

It's pay to win, we all know it, it's just happens that this prize is like the prize you win for throwing a dart at a balloon three feet way from you at the carnival. It's a 1'X2' poster of a cat hanging from a tree branch framed with cheap plastic.

Pay to win would imply that you pay money to win the game.
In this game you pay money for more chances and more RNG. In no way that is pay to win.
If you went on the shop, and they let you boost to 5k EGO and buy a bunch of orange 5k weapons with the best rolls. Then it's pay to win.

This game is P2G, Pay to Gamble. It's all about getting more chances at RNG.
That's not pay to win......It's...kind of stupider because it costs more since you might not get what you want. lol

dramaQkarri
07-13-2014, 09:25 AM
So now in the miraculously moving target of P2W games like Defiance, you're arguing that it's not P2W if winning doesn't matter? Then arguing that if you pay to win at parts of the game that you don't like that means it's not pay to win?

It's pay to win, we all know it, it's just happens that this prize is like the prize you win for throwing a dart at a balloon three feet way from you at the carnival. It's a 1'X2' poster of a cat hanging from a tree branch framed with cheap plastic.

Hey I like my poster :D

Amack
07-13-2014, 09:36 AM
Pay to win would imply that you pay money to win the game.
In this game you pay money for more chances and more RNG. In no way that is pay to win.
If you went on the shop, and they let you boost to 5k EGO and buy a bunch of orange 5k weapons with the best rolls. Then it's pay to win.

This game is P2G, Pay to Gamble. It's all about getting more chances at RNG.
That's not pay to win......It's...kind of stupider because it costs more since you might not get what you want. lol

This is a circular argument. Since there is no final boss to beat, and no final level to accomplish, it can never be pay to "beat the game".

However, if you go by the actual definition of the word 'Win' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win)...

Winning in this game can be categorized by aspects such as...
1. Obtaining gear (Oranges)
2. Obtaining high scores
3. Achieving high ego rank
4. Collecting Arkforge
No matter what goal you are trying to reach, it can be reached faster and/or easier by making purchases in the bit store.

stefb42
07-13-2014, 10:18 AM
I go to the monolith and i finish 3rd, so i think to myself huh ill show those 2 guys so i buy score boosts for me and my clan group etc making my score bonus 100%, go to the next monolith and what do you know I'm 1st, did i not just pay to win? Btw this is just an example, I've never bought a boost but yeah, sounds like pay to win in that example

furthermore my boosts that i just bought will also ensure anyone who hasn't bought boosts will certainly not be winning either

hardy83
07-13-2014, 10:20 AM
This is a circular argument. Since there is no final boss to beat, and no final level to accomplish, it can never be pay to "beat the game".

However, if you go by the actual definition of the word 'Win' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win)...

Winning in this game can be categorized by aspects such as...
1. Obtaining gear (Oranges)
2. Obtaining high scores
3. Achieving high ego rank
4. Collecting Arkforge
No matter what goal you are trying to reach, it can be reached faster and/or easier by making purchases in the bit store.

Well then by that definition, every game with an in-game shop is pay to win. lol
Which....I could kind of agree with. :P

Obviously part of the problem is that there is no cemented definition for "pay to win".
If we go with the flat out definition of "win", then like I said, every game with an in-game shop that offers items and convenience is pay to win. This game included.

charmXalor
07-13-2014, 10:44 AM
Well then by that definition, every game with an in-game shop is pay to win. lol
Which....I could kind of agree with. :P

Obviously part of the problem is that there is no cemented definition for "pay to win".
If we go with the flat out definition of "win", then like I said, every game with an in-game shop that offers items and convenience is pay to win. This game included.


Not necessarily, but when I have to buy in game currency just to obtain things that I need otherwise I'm stuck mindlessly grinding for hours/days that's when I consider a game as "pay to win". In defiance's case, they've added ark forge(which in my option should be removed, they've re-added a cost to converting salvage into keys (also should be removed), and they keep adding more and more rep currencies & sub-currencies to for you to buy bits or grind for days on end. That's "pay to win" bro.

I wish they would stop all the nerfing, it's making the game harder to play, not easier, and also that means people stop all the whining about every little thing. Because if they nerf everything in the game that a few people in the game is unfair, we won't have a game to play!

Heartlight
07-13-2014, 10:54 AM
I would suggest that the because of the stigma of pay to win, all companies are going to find ever more subtle ways of introducing micro purchases that will create this debate.

Perhaps the more accurate term nowadays would be Pay for Advantage. As far as I can tell, this is an inarguable point. Unless a company ONLY sells the ability to match your car color with your hair color, and the like, everything else they do will be pay for an advantage over the players that don't pay.

Is it still an ethical debate? Is PFA as loathsome? Regardless, unless you're debating the right subject, there will be no movement on the topic.

As always, in my opinion :)

Alastar
07-13-2014, 01:18 PM
I really don't get what all the fuss is about tbh. The prices are ridiculous granted. That aside no money means no game. If we aren't paying their bills we don't get to log in ever again. What's the best way to make money off your player base? Things they desire. What do we want? Ark forge keys loot. I'd stick price tags on boosts and ark forge and such lol.

noMOE_justwrong4ever
07-13-2014, 01:34 PM
It was ridiculous months ago to pay 100k ark salvage to add a mod slot when salvage was difficult to obtain and more to remaster. Now it's just. Even switched to a different frustrating currency that is even more difficult to save up.

Perhaps if I could squish x amount of guns to equal 10 ark forge. Maybe one orange item for 50 forge it wouldn't be as big a deal for me. Now it's an awful grind where even buying boxes you can't get the forge.

Lower the prices in you bit store people would buy stuff. Change color palettes and charge 99 cents. 12 dollars for a helmet is not financially responsible to even those with lots of disposable income it's just dumb. Hundreds of people make impulse purchases in a dollar store. One person that buys a 100 item once a month? Where are you gonna make more money? Possibly hundreds of 1 -2 dollar purchases, or the periodical big spender?

I'd love to be at a financial report meeting because your advisor is an idiot

Overtkill21
07-13-2014, 01:44 PM
This is a circular argument. Since there is no final boss to beat, and no final level to accomplish, it can never be pay to "beat the game".

However, if you go by the actual definition of the word 'Win' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win)...

Winning in this game can be categorized by aspects such as...
1. Obtaining gear (Oranges)
2. Obtaining high scores
3. Achieving high ego rank
4. Collecting Arkforge
No matter what goal you are trying to reach, it can be reached faster and/or easier by making purchases in the bit store.

BAM, thank you, you can Pay to Win in this game in numerous ways; I find it remarkable that folks try to defend the position that Defiance isn't a Pay to Win scenario.

You think winning is Scoring Highest on an Arkfall/Incursion/Siege? Well you can pay to do that.
You think winning is obtaining great Legendary weapons? Well you can pay to do that too. (Arkforge waves hello)

Defiance is the most clear Pay To Win game I have ever seen.

When the Lead Custodian told video game news outlets, upon the announcement of Defiance Free To Play, that the games best gear still wouldn't be obtainable with cash and with the same breath said we'd be able to upgrade rarity using Arkforge and buy it for cash...I just about spit Pepsi all over my keyboard.

Tickdoff Tank
07-13-2014, 02:16 PM
Defiance is "The most clear Pay to Win game you have ever seen"? You need to get out more.

This game is NOWHERE NEAR pay to win, not even in the same ballpark. You can pay for convenience (and some of those conveniences are quite handy), but there is NOTHING at all in this game that you MUST have and which requires you to spend a single penny. There are some items that require a DLC pack, but none of those are needed to excel.

All of you people that claim Defiance is P2W are simply using a hot topic/loaded term in an attempt to bolster your argument. Unfortunately you are not succeeding. Defiance has many issues that need to be addressed, many bugs that need to be fixed, and more "balancing" (real balancing, not heavy handed nerfs) needs to be done. But Pay to Win this game is not.

Bonehead
07-13-2014, 02:38 PM
You think winning is Scoring Highest on an Arkfall/Incursion/Siege? Well you can pay to do that.
You think winning is obtaining great Legendary weapons? Well you can pay to do that too. (Arkforge waves hello)


http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag464/lenzdude/boom_zps47529de6.gif

Slayer Slayn
07-13-2014, 02:55 PM
little did I know my simple post about ninja nerfs of lockboxes would turn into a P2W thread overnite..... but yea since its "my" thread... its totally pay to win. You can still win without paying but paying definitely gets you the resources of winning without having to actually win(true score not boostd score). score boost is PRIME example. yea there is a chance you might not get what you want but the whole point is that your chance at that item you want is increased without having done anything to increase it. now if score, xp, or skill boost ect ect. dropped from lockboxes there would be a better argument for it not being pay to win. but since those things are only received from patron boosted daily/weekly boxes or buyable for bits in the store... that is by definition pay to win. Mind you as I said before you can still win without paying BUT the fact that you can basically guarantee a win (highest score) by purchasing boosts or purchasing a patron pass that drops boosts..... you are still paying for boosts which reward resources without actually working for those resources.... BY definition that is paying to receive something which would otherwise only be obtainable by working for it.... which is... stick with me on this... pay to win. As a final note I think they should totally put "boost" ant the boost percentage beside the scores of people who have active score boosts during an event that way people know why their score is so bad compared to others and can make an accurate assessments of their skills and equipment with other non boosted people and thusly improve upon their skill, style, and equipment.

Overtkill21
07-13-2014, 03:44 PM
Defiance is "The most clear Pay to Win game you have ever seen"? You need to get out more.

This game is NOWHERE NEAR pay to win, not even in the same ballpark. You can pay for convenience (and some of those conveniences are quite handy), but there is NOTHING at all in this game that you MUST have and which requires you to spend a single penny. There are some items that require a DLC pack, but none of those are needed to excel.

All of you people that claim Defiance is P2W are simply using a hot topic/loaded term in an attempt to bolster your argument. Unfortunately you are not succeeding. Defiance has many issues that need to be addressed, many bugs that need to be fixed, and more "balancing" (real balancing, not heavy handed nerfs) needs to be done. But Pay to Win this game is not.

So what exactly do you consider to be winning in this game? Please do enlighten me, oh clear veteran of Defiance.

You've said nothing in this post that refutes anything I have said. Convenience? The convenience of bypassing gaining skill in the game by purchasing a Score boost?

The convenience of bypassing the Loot Chase by upgrading any weapon using a readily purchasable currency?

Your sixth post better be good because your fifth was garbage.

Yrkul
07-13-2014, 04:01 PM
Oh. It's the P2W discussion again (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?157878-Pay-to-win-a-definition).

Shotgun
07-13-2014, 04:51 PM
everything was nerfed, everything is messed up

dramaQkarri
07-14-2014, 09:47 AM
little did I know my simple post about ninja nerfs of lockboxes would turn into a P2W thread overnite..... but yea since its "my" thread... its totally pay to win. You can still win without paying but paying definitely gets you the resources of winning without having to actually win(true score not boostd score). score boost is PRIME example. yea there is a chance you might not get what you want but the whole point is that your chance at that item you want is increased without having done anything to increase it. now if score, xp, or skill boost ect ect. dropped from lockboxes there would be a better argument for it not being pay to win. but since those things are only received from patron boosted daily/weekly boxes or buyable for bits in the store... that is by definition pay to win. Mind you as I said before you can still win without paying BUT the fact that you can basically guarantee a win (highest score) by purchasing boosts or purchasing a patron pass that drops boosts..... you are still paying for boosts which reward resources without actually working for those resources.... BY definition that is paying to receive something which would otherwise only be obtainable by working for it.... which is... stick with me on this... pay to win. As a final note I think they should totally put "boost" ant the boost percentage beside the scores of people who have active score boosts during an event that way people know why their score is so bad compared to others and can make an accurate assessments of their skills and equipment with other non boosted people and thusly improve upon their skill, style, and equipment.

Agree with all this, +1. LOVE the highlighted part there...but they'll never do it "to prevent griefing". As if the P2W guy doesn't deserve a bit of chiding for boosting. Ach.

Z0mb1E
07-14-2014, 09:50 AM
Not only did all lockboxes get a good nerf, arkforge dropping from events has also been reduced. We all know why.

I did notice this ^ over the weekend.

N3gativeCr33p
07-14-2014, 09:53 AM
Your sixth post better be good because your fifth was garbage.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n87/oocpromo/Funny%20Pics/vw_oh_snap.gif

Ruinne
07-14-2014, 10:34 AM
No matter what goal you are trying to reach, it can be reached faster and/or easier by making purchases in the bit store.

If you fan hard enough or get paid to fan hard enough, pay to win is only when the game has an "Insert Credit Card to Defeat Boss" pause before every event.

This game is pay to win, there are other options without paying for sure, but you can buy very distinct advantages over players that won't pay for them. There are lots and lots of "pay two win" models that are a whole lot worse than this one, but let's not sugar coat it, this is a pay to win game now.

cmpowell
07-14-2014, 11:35 AM
All they mean is a better quality chance of loot.

they don't even mean that. you get the same rng no matter the score just more af and keys

cmpowell
07-14-2014, 11:45 AM
maybe P2W is just the wrong phrase maybe P2E(pay to excell), P2BATDTYW(pay to be able to do things you want), P2G4W(pay to gamble for win) I prefer P2PAYP2P(pay to play after you've paid to play)

Ruinne
07-14-2014, 11:55 AM
maybe P2W is just the wrong phrase maybe P2E(pay to excell), P2BATDTYW(pay to be able to do things you want), P2G4W(pay to gamble for win) I prefer P2PAYP2P(pay to play after you've paid to play)

Maybe it's time to stop trying to come up with new ways to say pay to win when someone is trying to hide the fact that the game is pay to win. Pay to win is normal and perfectly acceptable, it's only because of games that have terrible, predatory business models (Clash of Clans, Dungeon Keeper) that pay to win is considered some sort of crime. It's a term that in itself is something to be wary of but doesn't instantly mean the game is a foul, onerous game without further financial investment from the player.

PTR47
07-14-2014, 12:01 PM
Not only did all lockboxes get a good nerf, arkforge dropping from events has also been reduced. We all know why.

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?167396-Event-Rewards

This seems to show that there has been no change in AF rewards from events. The calculations were done with data from before the patch, and are still accurate with new data being collected.

charmXalor
07-14-2014, 02:24 PM
I feel like the earlier defiance build has some beneficial bugs too, but those got nerfed. Technically, there was no probably with the ark forge being a tiny bit farmable, why, because you still go a ton of grenades, spikes, and stems trying to get to the precious AF at the end of the lockbox rainbow. Some jerk-face cried wolf about it and suddenly nerf.

dramaQkarri
07-14-2014, 02:30 PM
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?167396-Event-Rewards

This seems to show that there has been no change in AF rewards from events. The calculations were done with data from before the patch, and are still accurate with new data being collected.

Yeah, I saw that. Kiwi said something about it too. I think what throws me is that various events have different loot tables. That makes no sense to me and overcomplicates the h3ll out of everything for no apparent reason than overthinking.
Personally I'm kinda OK on arkforge atm...working on resetting mastery on one gun, when I get what I want I'll move on to the next.
Got a few greens I'm playing with too, intrigued by the rolls and they're cheap to up to blue.

Ruinne
07-14-2014, 03:47 PM
I think the primary reason I'm seeing less AF from Arkfalls is that the last two good arkfalls (Darkmatter) I've gone to have bugged out and despawned as soon as the smaller events were done. Plus the last three scrapper arkfalls have been lag to unresponsive servers. Game bugs = no kibble for Ruinne.

The Hellbug Arkfalls pay peanuts. I don't eat peanuts, I eat kibble.

I did, however get 120AF from three T4 boxes... so the dog ate in the end, but my indignation stands!

charmXalor
07-14-2014, 04:10 PM
I could get more than that from t2s

BJWyler
07-15-2014, 06:14 AM
Obviously part of the problem is that there is no cemented definition for "pay to win".

Therein lies the problem. Even if there were an "official" definition (like we have here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvtYNEk-Ebg), it won't make a difference because every gamer has a different view of what is pay to win for them, and so they would simply reject any official definition as being wrong.

While many current Western model MMOs may skirt the boundaries of pay to win, but that does not make them or the business onerous, as has been mentioned. "Our" MMOs are still a far cry from those in the Eastern Market that birthed the term in the first place, and is very much accepted in that market. To put things in perspective, this article on ZT Online might be of interest:

http://www.danwei.org/electronic_games/gambling_your_life_away_in_zt.php

Ultimately, a business model that will be at least a little P2W in feeling for some gamers is pretty much necessary to ensure that our games and the genre continue to advance remain profitable.

crazyged
07-16-2014, 01:05 AM
Did a T4 last night and got 50 arkforge.

I was thoroughly gobsmacked and thought I'd have to murder anyone who witnessed it, in case they reported it as a bug...

Ruinne
07-16-2014, 05:32 AM
I think the huge issue with arkforge is the way Trion did this manoeuvre.

1. Introduce a fun mechanic that players really enjoy, players who bought the game.
2. Tell players to have lots of fun with it because it's supposed to be a fun mechanic for the customers who bought the game.
3. Decide F2P is in the future and you need to monetise that new model.
4. Break the cool feature in game and tell the players that who have been using it that you'll sell it back to them a little bit at a time.
5. Lie like a rug: "It was a bug all along, you're not supposed to have AF. It's supposed to be super rare!"

Introduce new things to sell, don't remove old things and offer to sell them back to players who already paid for the game and the DLC that introduced the mechanic.