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silencer_pl
08-06-2014, 07:57 PM
The following is a relatively verbose look at the SV changes, especially the changes in the pricing of keys, key/arkforge drops and encryption. There will be no TLDR. This is my compounded analysis and feedback on the changes as noted and while I don't exactly expect this to sway the opinion of "the sky is falling" crowd on these forums, I feel like the negativity has overly focused on specific aspects of the game, refusing to take into account wider changes to the entire system and the principles of balancing MMO mechanics as I know them.

To get the obvious out of the way, yes, I just created this account, I'm a fairly "new" player (I started playing Defiance a bit before it went F2P) and no, I will not provide my specific qualifications or how many games I published or whatever. None of these are arguments against what I present bellow and while its your choice to disregard what I wrote based on the above, it is not the object of the discussion. We are all Defiance players, new and old.

First, let's take a look at the reasoning behind the "controversial" changes:

Defiance as a game centers on a diverse loot chase, defined as defeating challenging foes and the good feeling of picking up their bigger and better weapons, shields, and other equipment so you can defeat even more challenging foes. The previous incarnation of rarity upgrades via the Salvage Matrix undercut much of that excitement by allowing for any item to essentially become infinitely upgradeable. Encryption helps to restore the thrill of the chase while still providing an impactful benefit for upgrading an item’s rarity.

(Source: Introducing Silicon Valley's Encrypted Items) (http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/07/28/introducing-silicon-valleys-encrypted-items/)

From this sentence, the current priorities of Defiance's game play are in line with most Action - RPG loot grinders (Diablo, Marvel Heroes, Path of Exile etc.), where the majority of the better gear comes from the game-play itself, with additional methods of enchanting (or, in the case of PoE, gambling with various currencies) being, at best, a way of adding extra "pop" to that sweet peace of gear you find.

Yes, it is not crates, but game-play that is (in theory) supposed to yield the best loot. In other "loot grinders" higher levels drop higher level gear which replaces your current one. The same thing is supposed to hold true for Defiance. The main method of advancement is through loot drops, not the forge.

It is hard to dispute the closing statement in the quote. I myself had about 10ish guns in my inventory which were my "ideal" setup and I stopped paying attention to loot drops at all. Everything was centered around getting arkforge (via drops or keys) and upgrading my gear.

This is not how a loot grinder game is supposed to work. It is a static system that gets very monotonous soon enough. A "traditional" loot grinder on the other hand drops more powerful gear at me, sometimes weapons that I did not previously use, that are significantly better then my current ones, enticing me to change up my play-style to utilize the more powerful drop. Combined with the EGO character system, this means that I am constantly enticed to experiment and mix/match my gear as my EGO rank rises.

One key element of such a system is that there is, ideally, no such thing as the "perfect" piece of gear. The next drop could always be better, be it by its own stats, or by how you can utilize it. That is why the highest rarity tiers have to be rare and rigid in how much you can edit them. Otherwise, again, you get the "ultimate" piece of gear and monotony sets in.

The Salvage Matrix, especially its rating and rarity upgrade features are not meant to be used en-masse. They are meant to be used on that one or two items that you feel are worth it or, if you maxed out your EGO rating, as long term goals, but long term goals that still can be dwarfed by a "lucky" drop, even at the maximum level.

Yes, this is a relatively drastic change from the relatively abundant arkforge / key drops of yore, but to me at least, the monotonous grind of keys/forge to up the ego rating of my set gear vs. just adapting my builds/play to better pieces of loot that I find along the way is a fairly simple choice.

From a gameplay or development standpoint, the choice to base the games mechanics around adaptation of gameplay to the gear you find rather then the other way around seems like a system that is much less prone to monotony or boredom. A good blue/purple item on the way up the EGO ladder is that way worth way, way more then that elusive orange that needs plenty of farming, one way or the other.

Yes, the highest rarity items are supposed to be those elusive, "awesome" drops. You will not see them frequently. The fact that the highest rarity tier, not the "average" (which is somewhere between a blue or a purple) rarity tier is considered the "norm" shows how skewed the system was before the changes. And this is another fairly typical characteristic of loot grinders: The "average" to "high" rarity tiers are the standard vs which the game is balanced, not the top ones, because the top ones are a rare treat.

Taking all this into consideration, the current changes are a step toward putting the entire system back in its nominal position.

Used to consider those blue/purple drops (which by the way seem to be a tad more common now. I base this on the fact that I both seem to see them way more after 10h+ of playing and I also see that I gain way more scrip from selling the gear off to vendors, suggesting that the overall rarity has increased. These are observations that I have found mirrored in my very small inquiries in-game) as garbage? Well, you should stop. That is the nominal level that you should be basing your builds around, as long as your EGO isn't close to being maxed out.

The salvage upgrade system during regular advancement is nothing but a buffer in case you have really bad luck. Only when you are close to maximizing your EGO you should be thinking of starting to farm arkforge to make an orange or two. And even that, the task should be fairly hard, not to upset the primary system, the regular loot drops. Again, a buffer, not the main source of advancement.

And all of that comes form the sentence quoted. That is what "they were thinking" and that line of thought makes perfect sense to me in what they were out to achieve.

But what about P2W and stuff?

Yes, those with deep pockets can probably shell out cash to just use arkforge. Is that P2W? If you consider the price of getting arkforge directly, it seems geared more towards one time, "I have the perfect item I want to make perfect...er NOW" purchases rather then a viable way of doing anything else. Considering the price of arkforge in the store right now, the very common accusation of how the devs are "pushing people towards the cash store" seem very out of place, because the prices in the store seem to be set exactly to prevent being able to support yourself on bits purchases to upgrade your weapons consistently unless you are willingly trying to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on it...

...And if you consider the arguments above, that means that you would be literally paying loads of money to skip a major part of the game and its long term appeal.

Let me repeat/sum up this part: The arkforge/salvage matrix and key drops have all been reduced, because they are a supplement, not the main intended source of your gear as your EGO rating goes up. Yes, that means that your favorite pieces of gear will come and go. You can probably still maintain 1-2 pieces of gear, but honestly, sooner or later (ideally) something will drop that will dwarf those items.

So yeah, in my opinion an experiences both pre and post patch and taking into account what Trion said about the intended changes, nobody is robbing you. Nobody is trying to milk you for money. You are not supposed to be able to maintain an arsenal of 5-10+ guns that you just arkforge to death. Finally, good orange items are the "peak of the hill" items, something you will see very rarely, not the "norm" you should be comparing and/or expecting to get fairly easy. That goes against the stated design goals.

Now, is the current price of keys a good one?

Probably not. It can probably use some fine tuning. I'd personally would like to see the keys rely heavily on salvage, not scrip, since salvage is mostly useless anyway. In fact, I'd just kill the scrip requirement for keys completely and base balancing on salvage only, having to do metrics and adjustments on one currency is better then two.

Here is the thing. From a design perspective, when making changes like that you always, always have to lowball the drop/acquisition rate of items that are supposed to be a side progression component. This is because if you happen to lowball and set it too low, there is little to no damage done to gameplay balance. And you can only get reliable metrics on how the rate of acquisition looks versus the one you would like to see after the changes go live on the "full" environment of the game. PTS populations are just too small and unreliable to calibrate the payout rates.

So no, nobody is trying to rob you or ruin your fun. This is just a normal part of the balancing and calibration of a system that was deemed to be detrimental to the intended workings of the game.

Again, the "they just want your money" argument fails flat here considering that the bit prices for boxes seem to indicate like they are more intended as a "Oh, I have 100/200/400 scrip left over, I can just spin the wheel or something" purchase, nobody in their right mind will and should spend money on that.

Finally, while this change is the most visible and drastic one, it was explained fairly throughly in the quote at the beginning of this post. After they have a week or two of solid metric data on all kind of drops and behavior, the devs should be expected to start making adjustments on all sides. Which is something that was already mentioned by the devs themselves here among the cries for bloody murder.

Some comments I've seen on the forums presented a weird dichotomy, where they both lamented about the price increase, but also mentioned how useless the boxes actually were.

The only consistent use for the lockboxes and keys that I knew is using the 8/24 key ones as a source of arkforge. Again, arkforge was not intended as a primary form of progression. The lockboxes serve a similar purpose as the rarity/ego upgrades in the matrix now - an additional dice roll, a bit of an extra "cushion" that may, or may not give you another go at something you really need from the "nominal" pool of items (meaning blues/purples), nothing more or less.

I didn't touch encryption. That is because it really does not deserve much mention beyond being there to just reinforce the idea of adapting gameplay to the good loot you find, not the other way around. And again, to me, this seems like a way, way less monotonous system.

Finally, omg the 1 mil box.

Its a cash only roll of the dice for rare cosmetics given a conversion rate to in-game currency. Most F2P games offer this. It would be actually way, way worse if they offered higher-then-normal chances for the high tier items. And the costumes? They are typical "chase" items.

And, to repeat myself, is the price and drop rate on those ideal? Possibly not. But, again, this is a dump item. Something to give you an outlet of either money if you feel like throwing some at the devs or in game currency if you happen to overflow with it, not the main focus of the game.

In summary, the current state of the game is very typical for MMOs/aRPGs that undergo a balancing pass. Things are lowballed and put back on track. Despite the cries, accusations and worse that I have seen here for the past 24+ hours, the reasoning behind the changes was given.

For those that have never seen such balancing happen in a game like Defiance, this was no worse or better then most other ones I've played. Again, keep in mind what is the expected main source of gear and how the game is intended to be played.

For those that did, look again at the explanation of the core of the changes in the article I quoted. You are not being prosecuted nor forced to spend money, you are just seeing a severe imbalance in the game that skewed the intended character of a game (from loot grinder to currency grinder) way, way off. The why is there, if you look for it.

And yes, offer feedback. But feedback, not laments or threats or insults or what have you.

To me, the present changes are very welcome and while they need balancing, they steer the game to much more enjoyable waters. And the post patch blues comes with the territory, I can't remember a MMO that would not stumble after a patch this size for a week or two.

Also, on a closing note: Yes, Defiance was a different game a month, three, six or what have you months ago. Comparing the current state to what it was, without giving context to both the past and the present (again, I touch only for the latter, basing it on the linked article and other dev posts about the SV patch on the forums form the dev tracker) is also not an argument. You can only move forward, even if it means having to go through a swamp to get there from time to time.

Feel free to comment, counter and whatnot, but keep in mind that I'll only focus on answering counter arguments to what I wrote above, not your own opinions or worse.

As promised, no TLDR here. It's fine that you don't want to read all this, but the subject does require a verbose explanation imho, it is as short as I can make it while covering all aspects as I see them.

Dandrielas
08-06-2014, 08:04 PM
The key changes don't bug me. What bugs me is the AF drop change. Maintaining my two primary weapons is a pain in the *** now.(For upgrading EGO purposes.)

Escyos
08-06-2014, 08:05 PM
I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.

hardy83
08-06-2014, 08:06 PM
The key changes don't bug me. What bugs me is the AF drop change. Maintaining my two primary weapons is a pain in the *** now.

That's why I've given up on specialty weapons. They are much harder to maintain.
I've reverted to just using weapons I can easily buy and replace in-game from the regular vendors.
It maximizes my enjoyment of this game because I don't have to deal with this BS "chase" balancing being done by a bunch of amateur business execs who have no idea what they're doing. lol

Dandrielas
08-06-2014, 08:07 PM
That's why I've given up on specialty weapons. They are much harder to maintain.
I've reverted to just using weapons I can easily buy and replace in-game from the regular vendors.
It maximizes my enjoyment of this game because I don't have to deal with this BS "chase" balancing being done by a bunch of amateur business execs who have no idea what their doing. lol

I know. :( I just really like those guns.

hardy83
08-06-2014, 08:07 PM
I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.

I agree 100%, except pulling everyone, that would be pointless. lol
They just really need to make this their #1 priority. The servers in this game are atrocious and I've played a lot of MMOs. This by far has been the worst experience I've had in "server stability" regards.

silencer_pl
08-06-2014, 08:10 PM
The key changes don't bug me. What bugs me is the AF drop change. Maintaining my two primary weapons is a pain in the *** now.(For upgrading EGO purposes.)

I agree, if you have those two OJs that are perfect, upgrading them will be a pain, but that seems to be mildly intended. However, if anything, I do agree that the closer you are to the "top" EGO values, the easier should it be to get enough forge to at least upgrade the EGO value of a gun or two on a steady basis.


I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.

The wobbliness of the servers is a separate issue, it probably does not help that they are additionally unstable post-patch, but it seems like the most serious offenders are being removed tonight and hopefully will continue to be squashed as metrics are gathered. I do agree though, that it probably compounds the frustration.


I agree 100%, except pulling everyone, that would be pointless. lol
They just really need to make this their #1 priority. The servers in this game are atrocious and I've played a lot of MMOs. This by far has been the worst experience I've had in "server stability" regards.

Obviously you haven't played The Secret World ;P

hardy83
08-06-2014, 08:14 PM
Obviously you haven't played The Secret World ;P

I do actually. Only recently though within the past year. I've had zero issues with that game. I don't know what the launch was like though. It could've been just as bad for all I know.

Escyos
08-06-2014, 08:14 PM
I agree 100%, except pulling everyone, that would be pointless. lol
They just really need to make this their #1 priority. The servers in this game are atrocious and I've played a lot of MMOs. This by far has been the worst experience I've had in "server stability" regards.

Yes, well maybe not everyone, but as many as then can. I don't care if we don't get the crossover stuff with the show MONTHS after it airs. I don't care that we have to wait a year for more content, I just want to be able to play continuously.

Noirfatale
08-06-2014, 08:14 PM
I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.


and there you have it. THIS IS WHAT WE WANT.

I can live with all the other adjustement, it works for me but FIX THE SERVER STABILITY/LAG/DISCONNECT.



I dont care if we dont get anything new for a whole month or two .

Menov
08-06-2014, 08:26 PM
To me, the present changes are very welcome and while they need balancing, they steer the game to much more enjoyable waters. And the post patch blues comes with the territory, I can't remember a MMO that would not stumble after a patch this size for a week or two.

Also, on a closing note: Yes, Defiance was a different game a month, three, six or what have you months ago. Comparing the current state to what it was, without giving context to both the past and the present (again, I touch only for the latter, basing it on the linked article and other dev posts about the SV patch on the forums form the dev tracker) is also not an argument. You can only move forward, even if it means having to go through a swamp to get there from time to time.

Very well written, and summarized in your opinion. I agree, mostly. But the Arkforge payout needs to be fixed or lower the cost of leveling the weapon to your ego.

nathanpbutler
08-06-2014, 08:38 PM
For the most part, I am in agreement with the original post here, at least in terms of the rationale behind shifting things to how they are now from how they were just a few days ago.

However, I would argue that is not so much the changes themselves that are the issue. There is a deeper concern at work.

The OP mentions, for instance, getting rid of scrip requirements for keys and just relying on salvage. They DID that already. That was one in a series of changes that have put us where we are now with both required and the price increase.

The issue, as in that case and many, many others, is not that changes are made but that it seems as though they are almost never thoroughly tested (especially in terms of programming, patches, and the inability to get up a major update without numerous patches and a downtime far longer than intended) and, in the case of the new changes the OP discusses here, never seem to have been thoroughly thought out.

Changes feel "willy-nilly" in Defiance. It is as though someone's kid started playing the game, came into the office on "Bring Your Child to Work Day" and started going off on a "OOOH! OOOH! YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE AAAAAAAAAAAWESOOOOOOOOOOME???" tangents, and the ideas just get implemented without thinking them through.

Or, more realistically, someone comes in and says, "Damn, people didn't buy enough bits this week for my/our tastes. How can we change things RIGHT NOW to push people toward spending more money RIGHT NOW?" The focus is not on improving the game or on long-term planning, it seems, but on knee-jerk reactions and CONSTANT reversals of decisions and actions.

"We don't need an EGO cap!"
"Oops! We need a new EGO cap."

"Get Arkforge! Upgrade stuff! It's awesome!"
"Nope, we can't have you upgrading too much."

"We need to instance Silicon Valley for stability."
"We will soon be adding Silicon Valley into the main world map."

And on, and on, and on, and on...

Make a decision once in a while that is well-considered, and we'll accept it (probably with groaning still), but make a decision, then reverse it, then reverse that one, then tweak it, then reverse the tweak, then totally change things in a major way, then roll it back because you went too far . . . and you lose the faith of the community playing your game and appear to be either amateurish or at the very least lacking in long-term planning.

THAT is the problem that drives folks to go ape on the forums. Yeah, they're blasting a current change, but the psychological underpinning behind it is a history of flip-flops and decision alterations that appear baffling in their frequency.

silencer_pl
08-06-2014, 09:04 PM
I do actually. Only recently though within the past year. I've had zero issues with that game. I don't know what the launch was like though. It could've been just as bad for all I know.

You are lucky, you've started playing by the time Joel took over and Funcom consolidated all of their MMOs to a single studio. It used to be... Nightmareish under Ragnar. There is a reason it tanked so bad at launch ;P


Changes feel "willy-nilly" in Defiance. It is as though someone's kid started playing the game, came into the office on "Bring Your Child to Work Day" and started going off on a "OOOH! OOOH! YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE AAAAAAAAAAAWESOOOOOOOOOOME???" tangents, and the ideas just get implemented without thinking them through.

Yes, that I agree can be frustrating and as far as I know, Defiance has had its share of bouncing back and forth, the F2P transition probably didn't help.

And while I can understand a frustration from this aspect, it would be shame if it blocked any reflection about what was said and done in this particular case and spiral to the typical Internet hate train. I just feel that in this particular case it seems to be getting way more hate then it seems to deserve.

Alastar
08-06-2014, 09:10 PM
Like he said. There is a long history here. Each out lash is for what is being lashed at plus every previous offense all the way back to when somebody started playing. And that can be a lot of background aggression lemme tell ya.
Its cool though. I've hit that so furious that you erupt into insane maniacal laughter and since then....... I'm just laughing at everything now. All the way to crazy town :cool:

nathanpbutler
08-06-2014, 09:13 PM
I just feel that in this particular case it seems to be getting way more hate then it seems to deserve.

Like I said, it's a psychological thing, based more on past experiences and the schema created in the gamers' minds about how to look at Defiance than anything entirely rational or looking at recent changes in a vacuum.

I personally find their "pushes to the bit store" to be pretty obvious and annoying, but that's the nature of F2P. Revenue has to come from somewhere. I am enjoying the new Silicon Valley content overall, though. Even those of us having fun with the new content, though, are not immune from the effects of Trion's past decisions and the impressions they left with the player base.

ConcreteSnake
08-06-2014, 09:18 PM
My problem is that if they don't want us to upgrade and want higher level enemies to drop better gear, why do top level enemies drop blues? Or why there's only one arkfall you can get legendary items from. Diablos economy got crazy and they started loot 2.0 system and you get a nice epic or legendary item every 20-60 minutes as drops from difficult enemies. They know how to keep you chasing.

Alastar
08-06-2014, 09:27 PM
To be fair Trion has the chase pretty well hammered down. So well hammered down in fact that not only are we chasing through all these blues greens and purps but 99% of legendary weapons are trash :cool:

Lucent
08-06-2014, 09:36 PM
Let me repeat/sum up this part: The arkforge/salvage matrix and key drops have all been reduced, because they are a supplement, not the main intended source of your gear as your EGO rating goes up. Yes, that means that your favorite pieces of gear will come and go. You can probably still maintain 1-2 pieces of gear, but honestly, sooner or later (ideally) something will drop that will dwarf those items..

No no and also no. Since Defiance USED to be a very unique game in which the loot chase was based on finding weapons with certain rolls because EGO didn't used to matter, your mindset is totally different from older players. We liked the unique flavor that came with Defiance. Things that continuously get changed around.

If Trion went and developed a totally different game with the current mechanics they keep putting into Defiance, fine.

All the anger you see from long-time players stems from the fact that the game seems to CONSTANTLY just completely revamp and redefine its mechanics. In some way, it feels like a completely different game than it used to be. There have been some positive changes but when the changes instead make you feel like the rug is being pulled out from under you, it's frustrating.
And it happens and happens and happens. And then you just feel sad about the game you used to play because it will never ever exist again.



"We don't need an EGO cap!"
"Oops! We need a new EGO cap."

"Get Arkforge! Upgrade stuff! It's awesome!"
"Nope, we can't have you upgrading too much."

"We need to instance Silicon Valley for stability."
"We will soon be adding Silicon Valley into the main world map."

.

THIS EXACTLY.
I am pretty sure the quote about EGO cap was almost exactly "There isn't an EGO cap anymore: just the highest amount of EGO you can get from available pursuits."

OK BUT THEN YOU CHANGED IT BACK. Freaking DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT YOUR GAME TO BE. Even something so "trivial" as the max EGO.
Original game: Max EGO at 5000, highest amount of points around 5300
Change: Get credit for EGO point you earn from pursuits, etc.
CHANGE BACK NEEDLESSLY: Max at 5900
Shortly in the future (as implied with saying "Don't worry, it still keeps track"): Randomly change back to no max EGO.

Crap like this is just.... pointless.

It took them this amount of time to realize that something THEY HYPED LIKE CRAZY (rarity upgrade, etc) isn't what they meant to do at all and didn't realize it was a bad idea. Then WTF were they doing in the first place? How ELSE did that anticipate that addition being used?

It does feel like a child who can't decide what they want.

Atticus Batman
08-06-2014, 09:55 PM
Quit charging scrip for Keycodes/lockboxes? Sorry they added that in June 2013 and a month or two later, added scrip back to the key costs and doubled it. Now they have double the prices for keys and lockboxes again. So this is not a step forward but a HUGE step backward. The ability to upgrade gun rarity (at all) was just added around May of this year, now they are limiting it to one upgrade. Thaat is also a step backward. So as Paula Abdul and Mc Skat Cat say "Take two steps forward, two steps back."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xweiQukBM_k

Lucent
08-06-2014, 09:56 PM
Ok, I reread the OP and have to add:


You are not being prosecuted nor forced to spend money, you are just seeing a severe imbalance in the game that skewed the intended character of a game (from loot grinder to currency grinder) way, way off. .

It IS a currency grinder.

Currencies:
-Scrip
-Ark Salvage
-Keycodes
-Bits ($$$$)
-Arkforge
-Corelium Cores
-VBI Rep
-Soleptor Rep
-Topnotch Rep
-Paradise Rep
-Echelon Rep
-Thorn Liro Rep
-7th Legion Rep
-Chimera Rep
-Defiant Few Rep
-Tarr Family Rep

And it always has been. Allllllllwaaaaaaaays. Yes, you CAN get drops from completing events, but I got most of my legendaries from Lockboxes (using a combination of, you guessed it, in-game currencies) before Arkforge ever let me upgrade stuff. To the point where I wouldn't really care my drop from the event: I care about what drops from my boxes because it was more likely to be nice. It has always been like this: I believe that WAS the intended character of the game.


And the post patch blues comes with the territory, I can't remember a MMO that would not stumble after a patch this size for a week or two.

Except Defiance keeps stumbling after almost every recent major change. Then stumbles through hotfix after hotfix that constantly changes things in unexpectedly ways.

PTR47
08-06-2014, 10:53 PM
I've read through the OP a few times, and the biggest problem is end-game.

There is none.

There's a raid boss that's broken, a PVP system that's broken, and there's a loot chase. The last one just got more broken. If all you have to do is a loot chase, how is that going to make you feel? I don't do either of the former, just the last one. This does not make the game more fulfilling. Decreasing drop-rates hurts the most, then AF, then Keys. I only spent keys when I was full of them.

Also, the cosmetics of the 1mil lootbox offers unique power gains. It's not cosmetic. It's now a piece of gear that you don't have.

silencer_pl
08-06-2014, 11:13 PM
My problem is that if they don't want us to upgrade and want higher level enemies to drop better gear, why do top level enemies drop blues?

I addressed this: The nominal item rarity is blue/purple. Oranges should be rare across the board and even when they pop up, they are not a guaranteed better item.


Or why there's only one arkfall you can get legendary items from.

Because at the moment there is only one arkfall (outside of the two faction vendors that have you do daily expert runs) that actually is difficult enough to warrant handing them out. Makes actually pulling it off worth it, especially since it requires a premade large group to pull off successful after its recent changes.

Again, legendaries are the "top", rare weapons. They are not the "nominal" level that should serve as a frame of reference imho. It is something to aspire to, but ultimately an extremely long term goal, with lots of stops on the way.


Diablos economy got crazy and they started loot 2.0 system and you get a nice epic or legendary item every 20-60 minutes as drops from difficult enemies. They know how to keep you chasing.

Thats not chasing, thats a handout. I didn't mention D3 on purpose, it literally takes the easiest route possible design wise in all aspects, which is fine for people that like that, but it also makes gameplay horribly monotonous and lacking exactly the factor that the quote I gave in the OP mentioned.

Again, chasing means that nothing is absolutely guaranteed and you need to learn to make do with what you get and, if needed, balance things out on the fly as you get higher level loot. D3s loot system shallows out that aspect to the point it pretty much no longer exists. That was exactly the problem with the arkforge, instead of looting and mixing/matching, you were pretty much just farming keys/arkforge.

That is not saying mind you that the current changes are perfect, but again, considering the repetitive nature of the game (as is the nature of all Action RPGs and MMOs really) something else needs to engage the player.


To be fair Trion has the chase pretty well hammered down. So well hammered down in fact that not only are we chasing through all these blues greens and purps but 99% of legendary weapons are trash

One mans trash...

If stuff is trash to you, then more power to you. But the entire idea behind chase systems is that you will almost never get exactly what you are looking for and will need to make do. I still have my pre-patch arkforged stuff on me, but I'm approaching the moment where I'll have to get creative with my upgrades, which is the nature of the game.

Again, I don't intend to argue that the near-cap EGO rating players should have a bit easier way to get arkforge just because their progression is more limited, though that already should be the case since those players should be getting higher scores anyway?


No no and also no. Since Defiance USED to be a very unique game in which the loot chase was based on finding weapons with certain rolls because EGO didn't used to matter, your mindset is totally different from older players. We liked the unique flavor that came with Defiance. Things that continuously get changed around.

If Trion went and developed a totally different game with the current mechanics they keep putting into Defiance, fine.[/lucent]

That is because the game they originally made flopped hard.

And mind you, I've seen games I like either go offline or get completely changed, but the "old" Defiance model had the serious issue of not being an attractive product. I've had a chance to demo it shortly after release and its a night and day difference to what it is right now, I agree.

The format Defiance used when it launched and ran for its initial period would work way better if inserted into a single player game (obviously needing much more adjustments), but was completely not appealing as an MMO/ARpg Shooter hybrid. Thats because most players think those genres and immediately think horizontal progression, loot levels and/or gear chasing.


It took them this amount of time to realize that something THEY HYPED LIKE CRAZY (rarity upgrade, etc) isn't what they meant to do at all and didn't realize it was a bad idea. Then WTF were they doing in the first place? How ELSE did that anticipate that addition being used?

The problem was it replaced the primary form of gear progression. It still is in the game and still has a whole lot of functionality, it was not meant however to be the primary form of advancement.

It is entirely possible this was not an issue at first, but just became more and more common as knowledge on how to "maximize" gains form the system spread. MMO metrics and dynamics are weird like that. Or, they just did not catch it soon enough, it can also happen.

Either way, the system is still there and still lets you boost your gear. Again, if you assume that the nominal level is green/purple, if you are conservative about on what you use it, you can still use it to tweak your gear nicely.


It IS a currency grinder.

Nope.

You can't grind bits.

Reputation has strict limits on what it can get you and it is definitely not the source of best items in the game. Instead, it is a side currency that you can use to get extra stuff if you happen to need/find it.
And that is exactly what the arkforge and crates are supposed to be according to the quoted post.

The whole issue which brought the change was that scrip in fact became the key to both chests and arkforge beyond what was intended.



And it always has been. Allllllllwaaaaaaaays. Yes, you CAN get drops from completing events, but I got most of my legendaries from Lockboxes (using a combination of, you guessed it, in-game currencies) before Arkforge ever let me upgrade stuff. To the point where I wouldn't really care my drop from the event: I care about what drops from my boxes because it was more likely to be nice.


And that is exactly what the problem was. Game-play and rewards for such, not grinding currencies is supposed to be the highest rewarding factor (the more you actively play in all aspects of the game ideally, the more chances for good loot you have), not playing roulette with boxes (which "forces" players to find the most optimal way of grinding scrip, detracting from the actual gameplay chase factor above)

And again, Legendaries are not the nominal loot level for establishing a good build, they are the gravy.


It has always been like this: I believe that WAS the intended character of the game.

Both the recent post and changes suggest something to the contrary.

And even if it was, imho it was a wrong direction and it is a good thing that it was changed.


There's a raid boss that's broken, a PVP system that's broken, and there's a loot chase. The last one just got more broken. If all you have to do is a loot chase, how is that going to make you feel? I don't do either of the former, just the last one. This does not make the game more fulfilling. Decreasing drop-rates hurts the most, then AF, then Keys. I only spent keys when I was full of them.

Loot chasing is supposed to be ideally tied to all active participation in the game, you can't really do it separately. Again, the lockboxes is not loot chasing, its a bonus system, the actual shooting things is the chasing.

Yes, Defiance has a finite amount of content, like any other game. If you reach the "endgame" of any game, that probably means you've done everything, unless you mean "high level content", which in Defiance is provided by the scaling system, Endgame is mostly just a term thrown around discussions about MMOs that does not mean anything imo.

Regular gear rates were not decreased by my own experiences and small amount of people I've talked to, in fact quite the contrary. The patch notes in fact specifically mention them being "adjusted" to be the primary source of gear, with arkforge/lockboxes being bonus sources.


Also, the cosmetics of the 1mil lootbox offers unique power gains. It's not cosmetic. It's now a piece of gear that you don't have.

Its not the cosmetics, but the weapons/shields that can also drop out of the lockbox. The cosmetics are just that, considering how they are handled in Defiance, no cosmetic can offer a bonus.

They are not mod synergies (since mods are not mentioned) meaning they are probably the double weapon/shield type which are usually underpowered compared to their weapon mod counterparts.

I've yet to see exactly what the new synergies are, but considering the other synergies of that type, I'm willing to bet that they are more a consolation for not getting an actual cosmetic rather then an actual super-powerful synergy.

Tiasmoon
08-06-2014, 11:35 PM
Its a cash only roll of the dice for rare cosmetics given a conversion rate to in-game currency. Most F2P games offer this. It would be actually way, way worse if they offered higher-then-normal chances for the high tier items. And the costumes? They are typical "chase" items.
So much for an analytical post about anything.


Im not seeing your analytical comparison between items that can be bought in this game, and items in other F2P games...
No other F2P game i know completely halts your progression in game, and does not even give you the illusion that you can obtain sometimes by just spending more time.

Buying from the shop here isnt ''the lazy way'', its the ''only way''



Your post is ********. You dont analyze anything but the arguments you presume to be in your favor.

430005
08-06-2014, 11:53 PM
The salvage upgrade system during regular advancement is nothing but a buffer in case you have really bad luck.
It's not bad luck, it's bad droprate. You can farm all day long, with RNG you can spend $10,000,- on lockboxes and still wont get the gun you want.


Only when you are close to maximizing your EGO you should be thinking of starting to farm arkforge to make an orange or two.
OJ's drop more often to have just two in your inventory. It's that 90% of all OJ's are utter crap. You need to make the chase attractive. Now it isnt.


The fact that the highest rarity tier, not the "average" rarity tier is considered the "norm" shows how skewed the system was before the changes.
I will start using blues/purples again or the OJs I have, it will not benefit the "chase". The rarity nerf did. Legendary should be the goal. Not good blues/purples.


Yes, those with deep pockets can probably shell out cash to just use arkforge.
For $20,- to upgrade ONE weapon or shield nobody will shell out cash to use arkforge. Try again, bud.


the very common accusation of how the devs are "pushing people towards the cash store" seem very out of place
Not really, because a social set you can wear (and nobody can see) is just as expensive. Fail again.


that means that you would be literally paying loads of money to skip a major part of the game and its long term appeal.
Weapons and shields from lockboxes are RNG. You get all the crap in the world, which is why nobody should buy lockboxes with real money.


You can probably still maintain 1-2 pieces of gear, but honestly, sooner or later (ideally) something will drop that will dwarf those items.
You haven't been playing this game for very long, have you? The reason people upgraded blues to OJ was because the droprate on good OJ's is so low.


you always, always have to lowball the drop/acquisition rate of items that are supposed to be a side progression component.
Setting a price of 1m scrip for 4 blue (encrypted?) items was silly to begin with. You set the price too high, people become uninterested and leave.


Again, the "they just want your money" argument fails flat here considering that the bit prices for boxes
They nerfed the rewards down so it takes you a month to upgrade a weapon. How is that not a cheap cashgrab? Let me make it even clearer:

"Our priority is to make Defiance the best game possible, and after reviewing the data we see fewer players purchasing lockboxes with both our in-game currency and Bits. And as we dig through this data from the past 2 months we realize the mistake we made: our introduction of essentially unlimited rarity upgrades removed the item chase from the game for many of our players. This is change is not solely about revenue – but at same time we make no secret about it: Defiance is a business"
[/i]Source: http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/07/28/introducing-silicon-valleys-encrypted-items/[i]


arkforge was not intended as a primary form of progression. The lockboxes serve a similar purpose as the rarity/ego upgrades in the matrix now
If i had to rely on only ingame drops, I wouldve left a long time ago. The reason they introduced arkforge in the first place is because they know the RNG is crap.


.. OK, i can go through your whole text and say what's wrong with your "analytic view" but it's so skewed it's just too much work (trust me, i can, i just dont want to).

PTR47
08-07-2014, 12:09 AM
Yes, Defiance has a finite amount of content, like any other game. If you reach the "endgame" of any game, that probably means you've done everything, unless you mean "high level content", which in Defiance is provided by the scaling system, Endgame is mostly just a term thrown around discussions about MMOs that does not mean anything imo.

Endgame is the stuff you do after you've completed leveling through combat/quest XP.

This.. couldn't be clearer in any MMO I've ever played. You say you were a Dev?


Regular gear rates were not decreased by my own experiences and small amount of people I've talked to, in fact quite the contrary. The patch notes in fact specifically mention them being "adjusted" to be the primary source of gear, with arkforge/lockboxes being bonus sources.

They have been decreased by at least 25%. My initial numbers say 25%, although circumstantial evidence through the forum suggest that this number is low, and many people are faring worse than my analytics. To be clear, I have been data gathering for theory-crafting purposes and my data says I got 75% of my expected return. That's not hunch, nor guesswork. That's simple math and data collection.


Its not the cosmetics, but the weapons/shields that can also drop out of the lockbox. The cosmetics are just that, considering how they are handled in Defiance, no cosmetic can offer a bonus.

They are not mod synergies (since mods are not mentioned) meaning they are probably the double weapon/shield type which are usually underpowered compared to their weapon mod counterparts.

I've yet to see exactly what the new synergies are, but considering the other synergies of that type, I'm willing to bet that they are more a consolation for not getting an actual cosmetic rather then an actual super-powerful synergy.

The new outfits offer synergies such as "[3] On shield break, +20% outgoing healing for 10s (Cooldown: 30s)", "[3] On armor break. 10 second blur effect. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)", or "[3] 10% damage when shield is down"

drackiller
08-07-2014, 12:21 AM
Ok, if the new corporate lockbox costs 1 million scrip and give almost all the time four crappy encrypted blues, how much will people pay for my Double criticals AR`s , SMG`s, etc!?
How much will people pay for a purple Zagger?

I`m just giving examples because, why pay that insane amounth of scrip when we can sell much better weapons to new players?
Or even give them those weapons...

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 01:03 AM
So much for an analytical post about anything.


Im not seeing your analytical comparison between items that can be bought in this game, and items in other F2P games...
No other F2P game i know completely halts your progression in game, and does not even give you the illusion that you can obtain sometimes by just spending more time.

Buying from the shop here isnt ''the lazy way'', its the ''only way''


No, it is not. You still get arkforge, you still get scrip, you still get keys, you still get loot. Absolutely nothing is blocked for you as a F2P player.

I suppose you missed the part where I elaborate on the dev post explaining that arkforge/crates are not supposed to be the main progression method.

In fact, a lot of F2P games flat out sell you gear for money.



Your post is ********. You dont analyze anything but the arguments you presume to be in your favor.

Feel free to counter them.



It's not bad luck, it's bad droprate. You can farm all day long, with RNG you can spend $10,000,- on lockboxes and still wont get the gun you want.


That has nothing to do with the quote you mentioned. Lockboxes are meant to complement bad luck in regular activity loot drops if you want to use your keys/scrip that way.

And yes, ideally getting the "perfect" guns of the highest rarity is a near impossible task, thats the idea.



OJ's drop more often to have just two in your inventory. It's that 90% of all OJ's are utter crap. You need to make the chase attractive. Now it isnt.


Which is exactly why you have the arkforge system where you can attempt to custom tailor your own OJ. Also, see above.

No gun, even an OJ, should be distinctly better then the rest, its just the numbers that get a little bit higher.



I will start using blues/purples again or the OJs I have, it will not benefit the "chase". The rarity nerf did. Legendary should be the goal. Not good blues/purples.


Yes it will. It will let you chase more effectively, get more points, get more chances for loot. The entire idea of a chase loot system is that you advance bit by bit, sometimes through unexpected ways depending on drops.

I mentioned there that Legendaries/OJs/whatnot are the ultimate goal, but they are not the "baseline", they are the gravy due to how hard it is to get them and tailor them to your liking.



For $20,- to upgrade ONE weapon or shield nobody will shell out cash to use arkforge. Try again, bud.


Proof? STO and many, many other games, Korean grinders including, prove that people can spend a lot of money if they want to on what they want to.

Hell, people spend more on cosmetics.



Not really, because a social set you can wear (and nobody can see) is just as expensive. Fail again.


Again, you would be surprised.



Weapons and shields from lockboxes are RNG. You get all the crap in the world, which is why nobody should buy lockboxes with real money.


Lockboxes/Lotteries are standard fare of F2P games. Again, you seem to underestimate the willingness of some people to throw money at things like that.



You haven't been playing this game for very long, have you? The reason people upgraded blues to OJ was because the droprate on good OJ's is so low.


Which is typically an intended mechanic in loot chasers. I am aware that OJs are rare, for the reasons I explained in the OP.

Again, its blues/purples that are the baseline, the things that you get fairly easy. OJs are supposed to be rare and the arkforge overflow was disrupting that.



Setting a price of 1m scrip for 4 blue (encrypted?) items was silly to begin with. You set the price too high, people become uninterested and leave.


Those are consolation prizes. You roll for the cosmetics, not for the gear.

Cash shop only cosmetics lockboxes are also fairly standard F2P game fare. A lot of them tend to offer some sort of solution that lets players with a lot of IG cash to roll for them too, exactly like they did.

You also underestimate the determination of collectors, though 1m might be a tad to steep. Or not. We won't know, the metrics will probably show that better after a few weeks of it being live.



They nerfed the rewards down so it takes you a month to upgrade a weapon. How is that not a cheap cashgrab?


Probably because, as mentioned multiple times, upgrading is a secondary way of increasing item rarity. Again, I quoted the dev explanation, where they mention drops being center stage as item acquisition method.

And yes, again, getting highest tier loot that fits exactly what you want from it should be a question of weeks/months, with probably a bit less once you reach near-max EGO (which I also mentioned)



Let me make it even clearer:

"Our priority is to make Defiance the best game possible, and after reviewing the data we see fewer players purchasing lockboxes with both our in-game currency and Bits. And as we dig through this data from the past 2 months we realize the mistake we made: our introduction of essentially unlimited rarity upgrades removed the item chase from the game for many of our players. This is change is not solely about revenue – but at same time we make no secret about it: Defiance is a business"


And this sentence proves what? They specifically mention that the arkforge upgrades were so prominent that they dwarfed out all other means of acquiring loot, including drops, which are meant to be the primary source and lockboxes (note they mention both in-game and premium currency), which are bonus supplements.

Getting enough AF to get an OJ is intended as a long term goal, not the default way of getting one.

OJs are rare by design. Again, blues/Purples are the baseline gear.

Yes, this was also potentially putting a hole in their profits and they acknowledge that. But if you buy a lockbox for real money, you also do it for the guaranteed purple and a chance of an OJ, not the other way around. And again, you'd be surprised at how much a lottery like this can make in a F2P game.

But, again, it is drops that are supposed to be your main source of usable gear, not the Salvage Matrix. They said so themselves in my own quote.

There is nothing in the sentence you quoted that would state otherwise, they are just more or less stating the obvious and acknowledging that profit margin was one of their motivations as well.



If i had to rely on only ingame drops, I wouldve left a long time ago. The reason they introduced arkforge in the first place is because they know the RNG is crap.


You don't, ingame drops are your primary source, supplemented by several secondaries (lockboxes, arkforge). Key word primary.

The changes to the arkforge clearly indicate they didn't want it to be that dominant, you made an assumption without anything to back it up.



.. OK, i can go through your whole text and say what's wrong with your "analytic view" but it's so skewed it's just too much work (trust me, i can, i just dont want to).


Which is a shame, because you ignored/did not include the premise of the entire post, which specifically addressed most of the things you picked out here. For the most part, you repeated what I said, only tried to spin in a negative light.



Endgame is the stuff you do after you've completed leveling through combat/quest XP.


Which considering that Defiance scales encounters to your rating does not mean much.



They have been decreased by at least 25%. My initial numbers say 25%, although circumstantial evidence through the forum suggest that this number is low, and many people are faring worse than my analytics. To be clear, I have been data gathering for theory-crafting purposes and my data says I got 75% of my expected return. That's not hunch, nor guesswork. That's simple math and data collection.


Please provide said data then, I'm seriously curious myself.

Also, mention methodology of data gathering. Provide datasets you compared it to. Time spans, repetitions, conditions, etc. Also, raw data just to make sure that the collection is reliable.

You know, the usual stuff that you typically have to provide when you quote statistical information.



The new outfits offer synergies such as "[3] On shield break, +20% outgoing healing for 10s (Cooldown: 30s)", "[3] On armor break. 10 second blur effect. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)", or "[3] 10% damage when shield is down"


How is that possible? How can an cosmetic offer bonuses in Defiance, considering it is selected from a menu that in no way mentions them, or even gives any description of it. They would literally need to create a new system for it.

Instead, we can read: (http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/08/06/silicon-valley-world-expansion-now-live/)

these lock boxes contain vanity outfits and headgear as well as weapons and shields loaded with three new synergies.

Its the Weapons and Shields that come with the dual synergies, just like the 7th Legion ones do, not the cosmetics. Provide a confirmed source that it is otherwise please, I have not found any myself.

PTR47
08-07-2014, 01:15 AM
Please provide said data then, I'm seriously curious myself.

Also, mention methodology of data gathering. Provide datasets you compared it to. Time spans, repetitions, conditions, etc. Also, raw data just to make sure that the collection is reliable.

You know, the usual stuff that you typically have to provide when you quote statistical information.

[link removed]


How is that possible? How can an cosmetic offer bonuses in Defiance, considering it is selected from a menu that in no way mentions them, or even gives any description of it. They would literally need to create a new system for it.

Instead, we can read: (http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/08/06/silicon-valley-world-expansion-now-live/)

these lock boxes contain vanity outfits and headgear as well as weapons and shields loaded with three new synergies.

Its the Weapons and Shields that come with the dual synergies, just like the 7th Legion ones do, not the cosmetics. Provide a confirmed source that it is otherwise please, I have not found any myself.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=296

Avalon1k
08-07-2014, 01:18 AM
I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.

I totally agree. The servers cannot keep up with the dynamic events. You guys need to look into a solution for this (I guess it might lead to more instancing (sadly), until faster servers come down the road. Or maybe IBM will loan you a Watson. Until you do I will have to avoid major events.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 01:36 AM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45067294/Arena_Data_Prood.xlsx

Where is the comparison to drops before the patch?

Out of the 16 entries, only 11 are repeated under the same conditions. And that is assuming no boosts came into play. 11 repetitions is not statistically significant, you'd need easily 100 repetitions before and after to even start to guess.

The most damning thing though, you did not account for whites at all. This makes the entire data set completely useless since it outright skips one of the rarities.

This is not a viable metric, it cannot be used.


http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=296

Unreliable source. The synergy shown is a 3 part synergy, exactly like the 7th legion one (Weapon/Weapon/Shield), no actual shot of the costume indicating any synergy, only mention is an unreliable transcription that seems to be confused by this too. Need an official confirmation (again, I've tried and failed to find one)

Again, everything about this points to a 7th legion like synergy. Nothing you've shown convinces me otherwise.

PTR47
08-07-2014, 01:40 AM
Where is the comparison to drops before the patch?

"2" is post-patch. Or didn't you see the friggin' TIME-STAMPS?


Out of the 16 entries, only 11 are repeated under the same conditions. And that is assuming no boosts came into play. 11 repetitions is not statistically significant, you'd need easily 100 repetitions before and after to even start to guess.

The most damning thing though, you did not account for whites at all. This makes the entire data set completely useless since it outright skips one of the rarities.

No whites drop.


Unreliable source. The synergy shown is a 3 part synergy, exactly like the 7th legion one (Weapon/Weapon/Shield), no actual shot of the costume indicating any synergy, only mention is an unreliable transcription that seems to be confused by this too. Need an official confirmation (again, I've tried and failed to find one)

Again, everything about this points to a 7th legion like synergy. Nothing you've shown convinces me otherwise.

Goodbye.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 01:43 AM
He likes to type too.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 01:48 AM
"2" is post-patch. Or didn't you see the friggin' TIME-STAMPS?

No, the timestamps instead of being on the far left are pushed to the far right of the screen, way beyond the initial view, so no, I did not see them.

But this actually make it worse. You compare 15 pre patch to a single post patch dungeon. That makes the data even more insignificant then before.




No whites drop. You're an idiot.


No whites, ever, including a standard dungeon and events? Really? Considering the insults, I find that hard to believe.

PTR47
08-07-2014, 01:55 AM
No, the timestamps instead of being on the far left are pushed to the far right of the screen, way beyond the initial view, so no, I did not see them.

But this actually make it worse. You compare 15 pre patch to a single post patch dungeon. That makes the data even more insignificant then before.

Call it what it is. 11 events, over which I got 60 items per. Very roughly;.... Avg and median are 60.



No whites, ever, including a standard dungeon and events? Really? Considering the insults, I find that hard to believe.

No whites there. Try it!

Snowclan
08-07-2014, 02:14 AM
I don't remember -ever- getting a white item as a quest reward, or for any open world content. The only way you ever got those was from picking them up off the ground.

430005
08-07-2014, 02:23 AM
ideally getting the "perfect" guns of the highest rarity is a near impossible task, thats the idea.
Thus most endgame players will leave the chase for what it is, log in for their contracts and log off.


No gun should be distinctly better then the rest, its just the numbers that get a little bit higher.
Weapons with specific synergies and mods combined with the EGO and OJ bonus WILL outperform.



It will let you chase more effectively, get more points, get more chances for loot.
The time needed to grind for that has become stale. You don't need to explain how a chase works.



I mentioned there that Legendaries/OJs/whatnot are the ultimate goal, but they are not the "baseline"
If a goal is no fun or impossible to achieve, people will stop doing it and go elsewhere. Good job, Trion!


Proof? STO and many, many other games prove that people can spend a lot of money
None of those games, offer products in casshop that are so overpriced that not many will buy them.


Again, you would be surprised.
Yah, cant argue on that, huh? Other games have much variety and lower prices on social. Not here.


Again, you seem to underestimate the willingness of some people to throw money at things like that.
Again, you seem to underestimate the willingness of people to leave the game if they can not obtain those items ingame.



Again, its blues/purples that are the baseline, the things that you get fairly easy.
Read my response please, i need to post the same answer to all your "again" posts. At endgame, OJ is all that's left.



You also underestimate the determination of collectors, though 1m might be a tad to steep.
Together with the reward nerf, endgame players will leave. Most of the time also the ones who have the millions to buy it.


as mentioned multiple times, upgrading is a secondary way of increasing item rarity.
Getting the right OJ weapon to drop on you, with encryption, is futile. Rewards arent just AF, theyre also keys.


again, getting highest tier loot that fits exactly what you want from it should be a question of weeks/months
Aside from the fact that you have a dozen or so weapons which are now near impossible to get, it now takes you weeks to upgrade 1.
Playing weeks to improve not even 1% of your stash of weapons in your inventory is worse then a Korean grind. It's Trion's Defiance.


And this sentence proves what?
Do I really need to explain everything to you? If you don't understand that, then your whole post is moot.


And again, you'd be surprised at how much a lottery like this can make in a F2P game.
No, I am not. I played PSO2 and enjoyed buying items from their cashshop WITHOUT the feeling getting scammed.


But, again, it is drops that are supposed to be your main source of usable gear, not the Salvage Matrix.
Where do you think those drops you put in the salvage matrix come from in the first place? The tooth fairy?


For the most part, you repeated what I said, only tried to spin in a negative light.

I can keep explaining and go on and on, the biggest issue isn't the rarity nerf. I need not to repeat this over and over for you.

The rarity nerf would have been a decent implementation if it werent for the reward nerf. It made the chase an uninspiring grind.

Let me know if i need to draw you a picture, I will be happy to oblige. Your answers do not shed any new light, only repetition.

And trying to deflect with troll answers like "proof, provide data" shows you're lost for words and can't react properly.

You almost sound like Nefarious ;)

Unique One
08-07-2014, 02:42 AM
This whole "chase for loot" arguement does not take into account some very important factors.

1. Weapon visual problems.
- I use volge typhoon for solo missions. I can not use this in various group situations due to other players not being able to see the target. I would like to use that weapon in group situations, but the weapon effects have never been fixed by the developers.

2. If I as a newer player do not already have the perfect weapon, how do I have a chance of getting a high enough placing an event to ever get one - specially with the broken scaling system?

3. Sometimes you just want a gun that looks cool - even it it is not the best weapon ever.


Players need at least enough income to upgrade most of two loadouts.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:57 AM
3. Sometimes you just want a gun that looks cool - even it it is not the best weapon ever.


Indeed!

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag464/lenzdude/2014-06-17_00002_zps218402e0.jpg

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 03:02 AM
Thus most endgame players will leave the chase for what it is, log in for their contracts and log off.

Assumption.



Weapons with specific synergies and mods combined with the EGO and OJ bonus WILL outperform.

Sure it will, that is why it is an upgrade. But their statistics rise above the average, ie the baseline for which difficulty would scale to, since even purples give very good performance in most cases. Their purpose is more satisfaction etc. rather then necessity.



The time needed to grind for that has become stale. You don't need to explain how a chase works.


Okay.



If a goal is no fun or impossible to achieve, people will stop doing it and go elsewhere. Good job, Trion!


Which also means that they are not enjoying the base gameplay anymore (and well, like any MMO there is plenty of repetition,) which is a different issue whatsoever.



None of those games, offer products in casshop that are so overpriced that not many will buy them.

Yah, cant argue on that, huh? Other games have much variety and lower prices on social. Not here.


We can back and forth till we die like this, but I don't care enough about this point to even look up the more extravagant examples.



Again, you seem to underestimate the willingness of people to leave the game if they can not obtain those items ingame.


Sure, except they can.



Read my response please, i need to post the same answer to all your "again" posts. At endgame, OJ is all that's left.


Which is exactly why fully decking yourself with gear that is the top quality and everything else is a monumental task. Somewhere down the line, you are still supposed to be playing a game and having fun, but I can agree that if the only purpose is actually trying to get an OJ (instead of enjoying shooting at stuff and getting one) and there is nothing else to interest the player, they are probably done.



Together with the reward nerf, endgame players will leave. Most of the time also the ones who have the millions to buy it.


Assumption.



Getting the right OJ weapon to drop on you, with encryption, is futile. Rewards arent just AF, theyre also keys.


Yes, also a secondary component of a chance for loot.



Aside from the fact that you have a dozen or so weapons which are now near impossible to get, it now takes you weeks to upgrade 1.
Playing weeks to improve not even 1% of your stash of weapons in your inventory is worse then a Korean grind. It's Trion's Defiance.


...How many OJs do you want exactly?
Again, they are rare. As in having one-two fitting your build is an achievement rare. By this estimate your stats has over 100 items you want to upgrade to an orange. Thats quite the opposite of very rare.



Do I really need to explain everything to you? If you don't understand that, then your whole post is moot.


Not an argument.



No, I am not. I played PSO2 and enjoyed buying items from their cashshop WITHOUT the feeling getting scammed.


Okay.



Where do you think those drops you put in the salvage matrix come from in the first place? The tooth fairy?


I seriously have no idea what do you mean by this.



I can keep explaining and go on and on, the biggest issue isn't the rarity nerf. I need not to repeat this over and over for you.

The rarity nerf would have been a decent implementation if it werent for the reward nerf. It made the chase an uninspiring grind.

Let me know if i need to draw you a picture, I will be happy to oblige. Your answers do not shed any new light, only repetition.


Okay?



And trying to deflect with troll answers like "proof, provide data" shows you're lost for words and can't react properly.


Yes, how dare I ask for proof of a statement that should come with it in the first place. Indeed, I'm quite the troll.

I think we are done here, I'm pretty sure its time for me to abandon this particular conversation considering there is nothing new here.

crazyged
08-07-2014, 03:02 AM
Sometimes you just want a gun that looks cool

My favorite weapon - but it does sorta look like a giant stapler...

http://www.defiancedata.com/images/uploads/1157.jpg

Superfluous
08-07-2014, 03:09 AM
And again, Legendaries are not the nominal loot level for establishing a good build, they are the gravy.


You keep saying this, but I think you're missing something here. It's too late for that.

Everyone who was already max ego a few months back has had time to upgrade hundreds of blue weapons in the hopes of getting that perfect orange. They already have inventories full of them. Orange is the standard, and it always will be.

Anyone who starts from here on out will always be substandard. The tools no longer exist to build the perfect oranges. They will never drop. The Perfect Oranges already owned in game are the only ones that will ever exist.

Kanah
08-07-2014, 03:17 AM
Anyone who starts from here on out will always be substandard. The tools no longer exist to build the perfect oranges. They will never drop. The Perfect Oranges already owned in game are the only ones that will ever exist.

I guess we will never get an ability to reset ego levels to enable trade. It would kill the longer, less fulfilling chase. Actually I'm surprised encrypted legendaries don't just have a "cannot trade" tag. Missed a trick there!

duction
08-07-2014, 03:27 AM
You keep saying this, but I think you're missing something here. It's too late for that.

Everyone who was already max ego a few months back has had time to upgrade hundreds of blue weapons in the hopes of getting that perfect orange. They already have inventories full of them. Orange is the standard, and it always will be.

Anyone who starts from here on out will always be substandard. The tools no longer exist to build the perfect oranges. They will never drop. The Perfect Oranges already owned in game are the only ones that will ever exist.

What about the ability to re roll bonus's?

HAYABUSA DCLXVI
08-07-2014, 03:30 AM
I stopped reading when you said you were fairly new to the game.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 03:45 AM
You keep saying this, but I think you're missing something here. It's too late for that.

Everyone who was already max ego a few months back has had time to upgrade hundreds of blue weapons in the hopes of getting that perfect orange. They already have inventories full of them. Orange is the standard, and it always will be.

Anyone who starts from here on out will always be substandard. The tools no longer exist to build the perfect oranges. They will never drop. The Perfect Oranges already owned in game are the only ones that will ever exist.

I considered that, but taking into account that:

- The forums literally blew up over the encrypted/drop change

- Trion did not take more drastic action against those

I'm willing to guess that the people that have lots of oranges are a relative minority. It wasn't that easy previously. Can't say for sure without precise numbers of course, but I personally doubt there is a lot of max EGO, 100s of OJs players around.

430005
08-07-2014, 04:00 AM
Assumption.

Logic. Current endgamers already have a lot of OJ's which do not necessarily require them to grind for new OJ's, just contracts.


Their purpose is more satisfaction etc. rather then necessity.

It still begins with finding that specific OP weapon to start upgrading FIRST. And that just became near impossible to achieve.

The goal at endgame is to obtain more of those weapons and with the diversity it can be endless. A.t.m. Trion is blocking that.


Which also means that they are not enjoying the base gameplay anymore
You want to use the lack of endgame content as an excuse for the reward nerf? It wont fly, because it effects low EGO as well.


but I don't care enough about this point to even look up the more extravagant examples.

Then you will never understand why the microtransactions in Defiance aren't as popular as in other MMO's.


Sure, except they can.

No player will play 5 years for a chance to get that exact carbon copy another player has. They can, but they won't.


Somewhere down the line, you are still supposed to be playing a game and having fun, but I can agree that if the only purpose is actually trying to get an OJ (instead of enjoying shooting at stuff and getting one) and there is nothing else to interest the player, they are probably done.

At high EGO Defiance BEFORE reward nerf shooting stuff and get a decent OJ was still interesting. Now low EGO players will never even get there.



Assumption.
You don't read forum do you? I see a lot of people who are changing their opinion to either leave the game or just do contracts and log off.


Yes, also a secondary component of a chance for loot.
Making the grind as tedious as it is now is just bad. Keys being a secondary chance for loot isn't an argument that reward nerf is good.



...How many OJs do you want exactly?
There are several weapons in different synergies with different nanotypes. All in OJ rarity. Upgrading and modding them WAS fun.


As in having one-two fitting your build is an achievement rare.
Droprate for OJ from a T4 isnt that bad that you will only end up with 2 OJ's. It's about finding the right one to mod.


Not an argument.
It's also a money thing. Just read it: http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/07/28/introducing-silicon-valleys-encrypted-items/



I seriously have no idea what do you mean by this.
You need good items to drop before you can start upgrading them. If the droprate is poo, you cant get to step 2.




Yes, how dare I ask for proof of a statement that should come with it in the first place.
Hey man, i'm not the one who keeps responding to others with 1 word sentences.

Snowclan
08-07-2014, 04:42 AM
What makes vertical progression games, (which is what Defiance has been turned into with Arktech Revolution), so addictive is the illusion of constant growth in power. People love to fight stronger and stronger enemies, to get new or more potent abilities, and to be able to smash the things that once presented a challenge.

At a certain point in such games, experience stops being what drives progression. That happens in Defiance right around 5k Ego. From that point on, you are in the End Game, where any power your character gains will be coming from something other than standard game play. Some of that power will come from finishing up pursuits. The rest comes from getting better gear.

The simple fact is that a blue gun with good rolls will be functionally superior to an orange gun with average rolls. The odds on an actual upgrade dropping in this game are impossibly small, and what is worse, there's nothing you can do to improve your odds of getting what you want. In most games there are bigger, nastier challenges that requires large groups and coordinated play, but they also provide a real path to gear upgrades. Defiance does not have that.

What it did have was the Arkforge system. Using Arkforge meant that even greens had the potential to be upgrades if you were really lucky. The combination of Encryption and the sharp reduction on rewards pretty much kills that path, leaving people near the Ego cap with little or no hope of ever getting an upgrade.

hiban
08-07-2014, 04:49 AM
You still haven't noticed? silencer_pl is Trick in disguise!

drackiller
08-07-2014, 04:58 AM
You still haven't noticed? silencer_pl is Trick in disguise!

Damit man, i was just goin to say that he is just trolling us...

Yesterday i earned a trophy on Sacred3 that is named Untrollable ;)

Lucent
08-07-2014, 05:50 AM
Can't say for sure without precise numbers of course, but I personally doubt there is a lot of max EGO, 100s of OJs players around.

I absolutely think you are correct. Part of my disappointment and frustration, really, is for other people. I was at the 5000 cap when it still was capped, have over 200 inventory slots on my main which are mostly oranges, plus all my high-ego overflow oranges on two mule characters. And I'm not as loot-wealthy (in terms of having perfect stuff) as many of the other super-lovers of Defiance. But I do NOT think there are that many of us in the game's population who have this wonderful overflow of weapons at max EGO. I look now at some of the stuff I wish I brought up to 5500 (still better be a soft cap for DMG increase!!) and really regret not AFing it up when I could still get AF easily.

Now I look at my lower character who sits around 2800. With the scaling changes, you get wiped so much more easily with a low character. I felt like I couldn't even care what gear I got (even Legendary) because it would seem useless when I leveled up. It was not as satisfying getting a Legendary because I knew I wasn't going to be able to farm enough AF to keep raising it with me.
Games are supposed to be fun. It was much less fun as a "new" character and you are probably NEVER going to be able to get what old vets have. Not because a new player isn't dedicated enough, but because they are restricted from it. You said you don't want to talk about Diablo 3. Each time the drop rate increased, people said they had more fun. More fun because you switch up what you use. And Defiance does the opposite of that.

In regards to rep, maybe you missed the part where NOW THERE ARE "BRIBES" IN THE CASH SHOP. /caps. You earn rep to open rep boxes or buy rep items. Now, you can just skip doing contracts and working for anything, if you wish, and just waste money. Yes, the only thing you can't grind is bits... let's stop calling it bits. IT'S MONEY. The only thing you can't grind in the game is real money but you can use real money to do everything useful. You can use real money to not do contracts. You can use real money to level up your weapons. You can use real money to do everything in the game for you except level up your EGO and do your pursuits. Everything related to gear can be done with money. Evvvvveerrryyyttthhhhiiiinnng.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 08:06 AM
I absolutely think you are correct. Part of my disappointment and frustration, really, is for other people. I was at the 5000 cap when it still was capped, have over 200 inventory slots on my main which are mostly oranges, plus all my high-ego overflow oranges on two mule characters. And I'm not as loot-wealthy (in terms of having perfect stuff) as many of the other super-lovers of Defiance. But I do NOT think there are that many of us in the game's population who have this wonderful overflow of weapons at max EGO. I look now at some of the stuff I wish I brought up to 5500 (still better be a soft cap for DMG increase!!) and really regret not AFing it up when I could still get AF easily.

This does not account for two things:

One, you are not using all your oranges at ones. In fact, how many of them have you been using regularly?

Two, derived from the above, characters do not need mules of orange items. In fact, you being able to get as many as you describe is exactly a sign of how bad things were.

I just got two orange drops today, literally one after another, one as an Invasion reward, the other from a Tier 4 crate. I think I'll be fine.


Now I look at my lower character who sits around 2800. With the scaling changes, you get wiped so much more easily with a low character. I felt like I couldn't even care what gear I got (even Legendary) because it would seem useless when I leveled up. It was not as satisfying getting a Legendary because I knew I wasn't going to be able to farm enough AF to keep raising it with me.


And this is another symptom of how the arkforge system backfired. You are not supposed to have items level up with you, but rather replace them with better ones. The same way rotate gear in any good action rpg. If you really get an awesome drop, it can be a long term goal to bring it with you, but this is supposed to be an exception, not the rule.



Games are supposed to be fun. It was much less fun as a "new" character and you are probably NEVER going to be able to get what old vets have. Not because a new player isn't dedicated enough, but because they are restricted from it. You said you don't want to talk about Diablo 3. Each time the drop rate increased, people said they had more fun. More fun because you switch up what you use. And Defiance does the opposite of that.


D3 is not a good example, because the game is a very significant side step from even its own roots, for better or worse. It is literally based on dangling shiny stuff in front of you, while the substance of the game leaves much to be desired. Regardless of that though, due to the core being very different from aRPGs in general, its generally not the best comparison.

People being happy that it rains loot on them does not mean that its a good system nor a good idea. Defiance does not do the opposite of that, it fixes a broken system that let you mule 100s of OJs.

Finally, to reiterate, assuming we have 5 levels of "drop" rarity (from white to orange), your nominal target is levels 3 and 4 (blues and purples), level 5 is that rare treat that you get from time to time that is the icing on the cake, but constructing your character around it from the get go is not a good idea.

I'm sure a new character will never reach the old vets, but he will be able to get more then enough purple and orange items from drops (or at least should be able to) to build around. Ideally, you are literally supposed to peek through after each run/major event/etc if any of the stuff you picked up is better then what you currently have. Not run in a 100 oj arms race, or get showered with guaranteed items for charity. Or at least that is how I understand the current target of the system and I couldn't care less what the old vets have and don't have. I'm still able to rank around the top 3 of public events with my ~2k ego purples. The Oj/Purp gap is not that significant.



In regards to rep, maybe you missed the part where NOW THERE ARE "BRIBES" IN THE CASH SHOP. /caps. You earn rep to open rep boxes or buy rep items. Now, you can just skip doing contracts and working for anything, if you wish, and just waste money. Yes, the only thing you can't grind is bits... let's stop calling it bits. IT'S MONEY. The only thing you can't grind in the game is real money but you can use real money to do everything useful. You can use real money to not do contracts. You can use real money to level up your weapons. You can use real money to do everything in the game for you except level up your EGO and do your pursuits. Everything related to gear can be done with money. Evvvvveerrryyyttthhhhiiiinnng.

That is nothing new to most F2P systems. You can always pay to be lazy in most cases. That is why the prices of the items are what they are, so that you can support the devs and get ahead, but you can't reliably superboost yourself to godlike powers without spending what... Double, triple digit sums? If someone really want to do that, I couldn't care less just like I couldn't give a damn about the vets with hundreds of OJs.

Because neither hinder my own enjoyment of the core game and I have not have issues with getting gear as I rank up to replace my older guns. Although my priority has always been focusing on the gameplay itself first and trying to get as best as I can with what I have, with the loot being a distant second, not the other way around.

Three Dog
08-07-2014, 11:55 AM
And this is another symptom of how the arkforge system backfired. You are not supposed to have items level up with you, but rather replace them with better ones. The same way rotate gear in any good action rpg. If you really get an awesome drop, it can be a long term goal to bring it with you, but this is supposed to be an exception, not the rule.


The arkforge system was perfect up until they upped the required arkforge to work on legendary weapons. Why exactly can`t you have weapons level up with you? That was one of the things that impressed me the most about the game. Truth is, before this change you would have found the best weapons for your character between the 2500-3500 ego range with them having near perfect rolls and always being blue. You then could hunt for arkforge to upgrade your equipment. This is what they intended you to do until they discovered people weren`t buying arkforge, so they upped the required amount and nerfed the lockboxes and discovered people still weren`t buying it. So now they have arkforge so scarce that it will take a great deal longer for people to get enough for upgrading so they are counting on the impatient people to just buy it from the bit shop. Trion isn`t the first company to pull this and I`m glad I saw it coming before I decided to invest any more of my money into it.

Storm58
08-07-2014, 12:20 PM
And this is another symptom of how the arkforge system backfired. You are not supposed to have items level up with you, but rather replace them with better ones. The same way rotate gear in any good action rpg. If you really get an awesome drop, it can be a long term goal to bring it with you, but this is supposed to be an exception, not the rule.

Pretty sure you were supposed to level items up... Pretty sure they (The Defiance Team) touted that as an awesome thing about the (at the time) new Arkforge system.

Reb Graybeard
08-07-2014, 01:00 PM
Pretty sure you were supposed to level items up... Pretty sure they (The Defiance Team) touted that as an awesome thing about the (at the time) new Arkforge system.Hell, it was the "SELLING POINT" of DLp 5!

All the wonderful things that ark forge was going to enable you to do. Now, nerfed. I paid for DLP 5. Remind me what I paid for?

LAS
08-07-2014, 01:03 PM
I won't be very original here when I say, well, I do not care much about upgrading everything to 'top level', I do not care about 'being top' and so on, so on. What I do care about is lag and disconnects. This and this alone is and will be more dangerous to Defience' future, as there're many free-to-play games, and with constant disconnections there're little to none fun playing this one.

As for money spending, that's usual in free-to-play. Sometimes I use that system as well, because, yes, I'm 'lazy', I do not want to live in the game. 'Bribes' for reputation, well, why not? Sometimes it could save time at the cost of money, and you know, you can always earn money, but you cannot have back the time you lost. The price is a bit high, though :)

Just tried to play. Got two disconnections in 10 minutes, was killed five times because of lag. That is not fun at all.

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 01:05 PM
The pre-SV situation offered two possibilities for gearing up.

One was your basic loot grind -kill godzillions of enemies and hope for a lucky pick- with lockboxes as a complement. The other was upgrading, which can be likened to crafting like it appears in most MMOs.

Both are a grind, in one case you kill off hordes of enemies, expecting some great or even outstanding gear to drop at some point. In the other, you grind resources/currency to upgrade gear. Both are boring as both imply heavy repetition of activities in order to achieve a goal but there is a significant difference, one of them has certain results while the other is a rainbow chase.. The latest "rebalance" pretty much kills off option 2 for anyone who doesn't spend his whole days playing. Encryption itself isn't bad per se, but should've been implemented right off the bat when rarity upgrades were introduced. The way it was done we've been given a great feature, only to have it crippled 2 months later.

Coupled with that, we're "offered" a "balance" which includes :

- a noticeable decrease in loot quantity, which is in direct contradiction with the "loot chase" angle
- 50% reward decrease in keys, 70% (at least) reward decrease in arkforge
- a 900% in increase in lockbox purchase cost with ingame currence/resources

So, what are we left with ?

A loot chase with extremely slim -and that's a monumental understatement- chances to get weapons of the highest quality tier and non-existent chances for that weapon to be good if you ever were to come across one. I'm all in for a "longer chase", but I also do know there's a time investment threshold along the way, which once crossed completely bars "fulfillment" and only offers ... frustration. Digging for gold for hundreds of hours, and having to make do with the outstanding rusty nail you just found because it is somehow less crappy than the paperclip you were using until now is anything but rewarding.

Getting the highest tier of gear should be difficult, and take time. It should also feel achievable and make sure that when it happens the stuff you got is not only rare, but also good. No sane person would engage in a lengthy chase only to get rewarded with an extremely rare piece of crap.

The issue at hand here is that we're presented with a decision based on essentially financial motives (which they didn't even try to hide), but are told afterwards it is motivated by gaming experience improvement considerations.

You -Trion- need money to keep the game afloat and that's perfectly fine. But many of us are adult, grown men/women with real life experience, don't treat us like naive teenagers willing to believe anything if presented wrapped in noble concepts. We may not like what we're told, but we sure would appreciate the honesty.

As far the OP goes, behind all the articulate wordings it boils down to playing a loot driven game with a "meh loot doesn't matter" mindset.

N3gativeCr33p
08-07-2014, 01:06 PM
Remind me what I paid for?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB7mHxdHlRY

Storm58
08-07-2014, 01:17 PM
Hell, it was the "SELLING POINT" of DLp 5!

All the wonderful things that ark forge was going to enable you to do. Now, nerfed. I paid for DLP 5. Remind me what I paid for?

1000 AF... how far did that get ya? ;)

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 01:26 PM
The arkforge system was perfect up until they upped the required arkforge to work on legendary weapons. Why exactly can`t you have weapons level up with you? That was one of the things that impressed me the most about the game. Truth is, before this change you would have found the best weapons for your character between the 2500-3500 ego range with them having near perfect rolls and always being blue. You then could hunt for arkforge to upgrade your equipment. This is what they intended you to do until they discovered people weren`t buying arkforge, so they upped the required amount and nerfed the lockboxes and discovered people still weren`t buying it.

Except nowhere when the system was first introduced (Arktech Revolution DLC) and the subsequent patches, descriptions, etc, is it ever indicated that it was supposed to be the main progression system. And the explanation for the current changes states otherwise. I failed to find a developer or any other Trion employee mention otherwise, but the release notes for AR in fact hint that the weapon upgrade system is meant for "that one gun you have been holding on to" (paraphrased), not every piece of gear ever and then some.

And it makes sense in context and from a design perspective as far as my knowledge is concerned, but I've already went in detail on that in the OP.



So now they have arkforge so scarce that it will take a great deal longer for people to get enough for upgrading so they are counting on the impatient people to just buy it from the bit shop. Trion isn`t the first company to pull this and I`m glad I saw it coming before I decided to invest any more of my money into it.

This is only true if you treat it as the primary progression system, which you really shouldn't be doing, as communicated by the developers. You can of course twist that to fit the money grubbing conspiracy theory, but considering the current bit price levels for various progression related items in the store, the official developer explanation just makes way more sense imho.

I've had no issues over the 200ish EGO and two weapon swaps I've made since the patch hit, as it happened when I actually had time to sink into it. I just constantly scan my loot for new "versions" of guns or interesting new options, even if they are green or white and have had no issues with progression (and had two oranges drop as I mentioned), the arkforge is a small trickle, but at the moment I don't even really need it. I just adjust my perk loadouts as I go to pull as much as I can from what I get right now.

To me, this seems like a much more engaging system then watching arkforge numbers go up and down and junking everything I find.



Pretty sure you were supposed to level items up... Pretty sure they (The Defiance Team) touted that as an awesome thing about the (at the time) new Arkforge system.


In fact, they did not, at least in the descriptions that are available now. The March Of Progress (http://www.trionworlds.com/defiance/en/2014/03/28/arktech-revolution-the-march-of-progress/) specifically mentions that the EGO progression system is an item chase. Note how the information about the EGO rating upgrading specifically mentions "that legendary you've been holding on to".

In fact, I've checked. No Pre or post Arkforge Revolution info available mentions the Matrix being anything else then a secondary customization system for your prime pickings.

The introduction of rarity upgrades is even more scarce. It is just mentioned in the patch notes for the free to play patch (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?161459-Patch-2.0-The-NSFW-Patch-6-4-14) and as far as I have seen, never touted as the go-to way to upgrade. In fact, later mentions (and future plans) to the salvage matrix seem to indicate that it is meant more as a way of tweaking or rolling existing loot, not the main form of progression.

So yeah. I'm sure there is something I missed, but I do not see any mention of arktech grinding being the primary source of all progression mentioned as intentional, in fact, AR notes specifically mention that a loot system is the priority while the salvage matrix is additional customization. The current price of enough arktech to viably upgrade an item to an oj seems to work with that theory. It does not seem like a coincidence at the moment.

The selling point to DLC5 was the vertical progression system, not the rarity upgrades. In fact, the teasers do it in reverse, the EGO upgrade being for those who hang onto old items and want to make them viable, not stockpile ojs by the hundred.

Go ahead and go back to the thread I link and feel free to read the others. EGO upgrades/the matrix salvage is never mentioned as a prime upgrade tool, bur rather as a basic customization tool/reroll tool.


1000 AF... how far did that get ya?

In one of the Q&As the one, single use they mention is a consequent upgrade of a single oj by 2000. I've yet to seen it mentioned as a viable progression mechanic.

Also,



- a noticeable decrease in loot quantity, which is in direct contradiction with the "loot chase" angle


That is tossed around a lot, never without anything to actually back it up. All of the Trion wants our dollars theories that I have seen so far are based on ignoring what they actually said now and in the past and shifting it to what the perception was due to a flawed system.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 01:29 PM
You -Trion- need money to keep the game afloat and that's perfectly fine. But many of us are adult, grown men/women with real life experience, don't treat us like naive teenagers willing to believe anything if presented wrapped in noble concepts.

Maybe the "naive teenager" with access to mom/dad's credit card is the new target demo?

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 01:34 PM
That is tossed around a lot, never without anything to actually back it up. All of the Trion wants our dollars theories that I have seen so far are based on ignoring what they actually said now and in the past and shifting it to what the perception was due to a flawed system.

Dude, I'm a professional business analyst. I get paid (and it pays really well) to understand mechanisms, isolate issues, devise solutions, assist implementation of said solutions and provide smokescreen arguments.

I pretty well know when I'm shown some puppet theater, because I happen to write some of those scripts quite frequently. Once trimmed of all fat, the entirety of your prose is based around one single concept, namely "that's what Trion said, so it has to be true".

While other gameplay decisions may have relied on differing views (grenades, scaling and vertical progression, WM timers) on gameplay, the present modification is clearly a financial one. Of course they're not going to admit it and will justify the move as "balancing out stuff".

The game and communication around it has a lengthy history of actions not matching announced "intentions". Presently no one who's been around for long enough reads announcements without extreme skepticism.

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 01:36 PM
If I'm honest, the changes to the economy make a lot of sense, it was raining loot and that made loot cheap. RNG weapons mean we have terrible orange weapons, and that's just wrong. Orange gear should be prized, epics should be epic. I would love to see the synergies and rolls cleaned up, they're way to RNG, there needs to be more logic to the system, if cherry weapons like purples and oranges are going to be scarce now it's the time to clean up the weapon rolls.

It's too bad so many bad design decisions have been made along the way, showering players with top tier loot was a mistake. Rarity upgrades were a mistake. 7th legion was a grievous to the people who bought the season's pass.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who has been there from the beginning it's just a bunch of giant nerfs. But from an outside standpoint these changes make a tremendous amount of sense.

What really gets my goat though is that this game still runs like a beta release on a stress test weekend. Nerf, nerf, nerf, buff, buff, nerf, nerf, but they just don't fix anything. Every month the game runs a little bit worse than the last month. The servers can't handle any players and the events that should be what define this game and make it exceptional are a critical error crap shoot.

Reb Graybeard
08-07-2014, 01:54 PM
If I'm honest, the changes to the economy make a lot of sense, it was raining loot and that made loot cheap. RNG weapons mean we have terrible orange weapons, and that's just wrong. Orange gear should be prized, epics should be epic. I would love to see the synergies and rolls cleaned up, they're way to RNG, there needs to be more logic to the system, if cherry weapons like purples and oranges are going to be scarce now it's the time to clean up the weapon rolls.

It's too bad so many bad design decisions have been made along the way, showering players with top tier loot was a mistake. Rarity upgrades were a mistake. 7th legion was a grievous to the people who bought the season's pass.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who has been there from the beginning it's just a bunch of giant nerfs. But from an outside standpoint these changes make a tremendous amount of sense.

What really gets my goat though is that this game still runs like a beta release on a stress test weekend. Nerf, nerf, nerf, buff, buff, nerf, nerf, but they just don't fix anything. Every month the game runs a little bit worse than the last month. The servers can't handle any players and the events that should be what define this game and make it exceptional are a critical error crap shoot.I agree.

I argued when arkforge was introduced and upgrading possible that it should be extremely expensive to do it. Including all 4 forms of the currency in game; i.e. Scrip, salvage, ark forge and cores. Several agreed, several dissented. I also mentioned how it would cripple the trading aspect of the game and the entire economy. And, was proven correct on a large scale. Hell, I have a hard time giving **** away because everybody has everything!

All this said, The Company "DID" introduce a mechanic. Found that it wasn't lucrative for them and nerfed the hell out of it. Shady business practice at best. Couldn't imagine I would remain in business if I played the ol' "bait and hook" like it does!

Synergies do need looked into and reworked. Several are a complete mess. I think each class needs it's own set of synergies, similar to shotties being the only class that carry brutal. In this manner, we won't have snipers with useless synergies, etc.

As it is. The majority of the RNG on weapons and their synergies is almost hilarious! But, it doesn't stop there. Senseless rolls, which were said to have been been "fixed" countless times, still plague the game. Mags on shotguns and so on.

And beneath it all, the stability of the game. It was mentioned that if all the stability issues were addressed that the complaining would quiet greatly. I disagree, but it is the "MAJOR" issue that many of us deal with that should be made the utmost priority of the game. All other issues, changes, and game designs halted until this is fixed!

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 01:58 PM
I'm fine with the changes, pretty much all of the changes since launch I've been fine with.

But what they need to do, is pull EVERYONE off of EVERYTHING else and fix the servers. Screw crossover missions, screw new missions, screw new events, screw new weapons, screw new outfits, screw EVERYTHING. Fix the damn servers and 90% of the pissed off players will have little to complain about.

Don't take this as a personal slam... but what server issues are you talking about?

There was a problem the other day, but everyone had it.. not just a few people and it's the first time I've even had a hint of lag since I started playing.

So.. could it maybe be on your end? Video cards overheating, bios updates, update to your OS that you weren't aware may have messed with the game? Something like that?

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 01:59 PM
If I'm honest, the changes to the economy make a lot of sense

From a strictly economic point of view they do, we're sold them under a misleading label. The thing I'd expect in the current situation -game standing on wobbly legs- would be some clarity in communication and less smokescreens being used.

"Yes, we want you to spend more in the store but we may have been too extreme in your attempt to motivate you", that I could live with. Not "We're going to improve your gaming experience" and then implement a change that will have you under-perform unless you shell out cash or play for hours without end ... or any combination of both.

As it has been stated many times across the forums, we would be a lot more forgiving about mishaps were they infrequent, not systematic, addressed, acknowledged and not straight up denied or justified with fallacious/disconnected arguments.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:00 PM
If I'm honest, the changes to the economy make a lot of sense, it was raining loot and that made loot cheap. RNG weapons mean we have terrible orange weapons, and that's just wrong. Orange gear should be prized, epics should be epic. I would love to see the synergies and rolls cleaned up, they're way to RNG, there needs to be more logic to the system, if cherry weapons like purples and oranges are going to be scarce now it's the time to clean up the weapon rolls.

It's too bad so many bad design decisions have been made along the way, showering players with top tier loot was a mistake. Rarity upgrades were a mistake. 7th legion was a grievous to the people who bought the season's pass.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who has been there from the beginning it's just a bunch of giant nerfs. But from an outside standpoint these changes make a tremendous amount of sense.

What really gets my goat though is that this game still runs like a beta release on a stress test weekend. Nerf, nerf, nerf, buff, buff, nerf, nerf, but they just don't fix anything. Every month the game runs a little bit worse than the last month. The servers can't handle any players and the events that should be what define this game and make it exceptional are a critical error crap shoot.

Which makes weapons.. GOOD weapons.. a precious commodity. Just as it should be.

Put in the time, get a weapon. Is it a good weapon? No? Repeat. Yes? GRATS! You are among the few and proud.

I really love it when I get something in the game and it's actually worth showing it off. The more rare the perk, item, vehicle, gear, etc.. the more likely people will try to get it. Isn't that what the loot grind is all about?

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:02 PM
Which makes weapons.. GOOD weapons.. a precious commodity. Just as it should be.

Put in the time, get a weapon. Is it a good weapon? No? Repeat. Yes? GRATS! You are among the few and proud.

I really love it when I get something in the game and it's actually worth showing it off. The more rare the perk, item, vehicle, gear, etc.. the more likely people will try to get it. Isn't that what the loot grind is all about?

Eh, I would rather have custom built weapons. Sometimes the hamster wheel needs to be destroyed.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 02:02 PM
Dude, I'm a professional business analyst. I get paid (and it pays really well) to understand mechanisms, isolate issues, devise solutions, assist implementation of said solutions and provide smokescreen arguments. I pretty well know when I'm shown some puppet theater, because I happen to write some of those scripts quite frequently.

Appeal to Authority fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority) We are all super professionals on the Internet.



Once trimmed of all fat, the entirety of your prose is based around one single concept, namely "that's what Trion said, so it has to be true".

See previous post. I have found no indication in any of the official posts, Q&As etc that the arkforge, not loot, was the primary way to advance.

In fact, if mentioned at all, its mentioned in the context of upgrading the EGO rating of a few special rares and the primary function advertised was the possibility of modifier re-rolls, name customization, etc.

If I'm missing something, feel free to show it to me. Otherwise, what was said in the explanation for the Encryption/arkforge changes makes perfect sense in context.

Until I see specific proof, via Trion devs, where they do indeed tout the arkforge system and the hundreds of ojs it produced as intended, assuming they are lying just because they want our monies is an empty, unverifiable assumption, which in turn is eliminated by Occam's razor.

This is actually part of what made me want to write the OP. For the life of me, I never saw anything that would indicate the great betrayal/cashgrab/etc. But I did explain that in the OP, so yeah.

Feel free to slap me in the face with a Trion source that specifically says otherwise, I couldn't find any in neither the forums nor the news on the site. Instead, what I see is an MMO population doing what they do best - finding an unbalanced mechanic and using it ad nauseum (due to how item rarities should work in an item chaser, also argued the point to death here), then getting mad when the developer plugs the hole.

So far, the only really understandable source of grief were the flip flops design wise since launch and the long term connectivity/server issues that have been around for quite a while, but those do not come attached to the scenes of betrayal and an attempt to milk wallets.

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:02 PM
The March Of Progress specifically mentions that the EGO progression system is an item chase. Note how the information about the EGO rating upgrading specifically mentions "that legendary you've been holding on to".

You are picking and choosing things in the article. Your quote is wrong, anyways, but I'm sure you were going for something else there. It also states, "...so you can level up your favorite gear." <---- That means not just legendaries.

Not sure if you were specifically replying to me about all of that other stuff you put below my quote. If not, cool. If so, uhhh, don't really care. I wasn't talking about leveling your items up as a primary source of customization or a way to get gear or anything, just typing what I recall.

Not sure why you quoted me on the 1000 AF thing either. That was a joke for someone else who probably understood it.

In case there was a misunderstanding, when I said "level items up," I was talking about the EGO level, not the rarity.

- Merry Christmas!

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:03 PM
Eh, I would rather have custom built weapons. Sometimes the hamster wheel needs to be destroyed.

Kind of takes away the point of the whole game then. It's a loot treadmill like 99% of the popular games out there.

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:06 PM
Kind of takes away the point of the whole game then. It's a loot treadmill like 99% of the popular games out there.

Which I disagree with. The point of playing should be fluid combat and having fun. I don't consider RNG to be fun, but a lot of developers are bad and instead make ok content with dumb RNG.

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:07 PM
Appeal to Authority fallacy. We are all super professionals on the Internet.
Any wiki is not the best place to source something... Some schmuck like me could change it or just post misleading information. ;)

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 02:07 PM
Don't take this as a personal slam... but what server issues are you talking about?

There was a problem the other day, but everyone had it.. not just a few people and it's the first time I've even had a hint of lag since I started playing.

So.. could it maybe be on your end? Video cards overheating, bios updates, update to your OS that you weren't aware may have messed with the game? Something like that?

The thousands of people who have experienced the endless connectivity problems with this game since launch and enjoyed the gradual worsening of said connectivity problems do not all have internal errors that make Defiance hinky.

It is not because they own the wrong brand of video card.
It is not because their sound drivers are out of date.
It is not because they have bad taste in underwear.
It is not because they use the wrong anti-virus.
It is not because they use an Xbox.
It is not because their install of Windows was imperfect.
It is not because they use WiFi in their home.
It is not because they own a small, yappy dog.
It is not because they use built in sound.
It is not because their network cables are too long or too short.
It is not because they use a PS3.
It is not because they need more RAM.
It is not because they wear white after labour day.
It is not because they all needed new routers.
It is not because you need 50Mb/s to play MMOs.

Defiance has had connectivity problems all through the life of the game, they have not gone away, and in fact have worsened. It's a bug, somewhere, it can show its ugly head one moment and you'll be fine the rest of the night after you reload the client. You can get it when you're out collecting data recorders, but you're most likely to get it when you're around lots of other players.

In defiance, the server crits you.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:08 PM
Which I disagree with. The point of playing should be fluid combat and having fun. I don't consider RNG to be fun, but a lot of developers are bad and instead make ok content with dumb RNG.

Well.. you can get fluid combat without loot... maybe. I'm not sure where, but possibly one of the COD games? But the point of MMOs generally is to keep people interested. And using the same weapon for 5200 levels.. that's not going to keep anyone's interest without a lot more going on.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:08 PM
The thousands of people who have experienced the endless connectivity problems with this game since launch and enjoyed the gradual worsening of said connectivity problems do not all have internal errors that make Defiance hinky.

It is not because they own the wrong brand of video card.
It is not because their sound drivers are out of date.
It is not because they have bad taste in underwear.
It is not because they use the wrong anti-virus.
It is not because they use an Xbox.
It is not because their install of Windows was imperfect.
It is not because they use WiFi in their home.
It is not because they own a small, yappy dog.
It is not because they use built in sound.
It is not because their network cables are too long or too short.
It is not because they use a PS3.
It is not because they need more RAM.
It is not because they wear white after labour day.
It is not because they all needed new routers.
It is not because you need 50Mb/s to play MMOs.

Defiance has had connectivity problems all through the life of the game, they have not gone away, and in fact have worsened. It's a bug, somewhere, it can show its ugly head one moment and you'll be fine the rest of the night after you reload the client. You can get it when you're out collecting data recorders, but you're most likely to get it when you're around lots of other players.

In defiance, the server crits you.

Wow, thousands of players.

See.. this would make sense, if EVERYONE was affected.

But most people I've spoken to haven't been affected.

That's kind of where "it's the server" falls down a bit, wouldn't you agree?

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Well.. you can get fluid combat without loot... maybe. I'm not sure where, but possibly one of the COD games? But the point of MMOs generally is to keep people interested. And using the same weapon for 5200 levels.. that's not going to keep anyone's interest without a lot more going on.

Which is why they need to figure something out outside of RNG. This game used to be that way when it was horizontal progression which I liked.

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Which makes weapons.. GOOD weapons.. a precious commodity. Just as it should be.

Put in the time, get a weapon. Is it a good weapon? No? Repeat. Yes? GRATS! You are among the few and proud.

I really love it when I get something in the game and it's actually worth showing it off. The more rare the perk, item, vehicle, gear, etc.. the more likely people will try to get it. Isn't that what the loot grind is all about?

I liked that people could basically make their own weapons. It took the ridiculous prices of guns down from hundreds of thousands to a more "acceptable" level (opinion, of course). It also made trades with green and blue weapons acceptable and people could even make a "living" by performing AF actions on weapons for other people.

'Course I don't play the game any more... so... *shrug*

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 02:15 PM
Wow, thousands of players.

See.. this would make sense, if EVERYONE was affected.

But most people I've spoken to haven't been affected.

That's kind of where "it's the server" falls down a bit, wouldn't you agree?

You clearly don't speak to anyone.

I've watched my friends list empty as people got sick of the game being a mess, multiple times. Guilds fold because they can't get on or play steadily together without problems.

But in truth, I don't think it's the servers, per se. It's more like a lag compensation bug. We all see rubber banding from time to time even on the absolute best connections to the absolute best run games. Defiance doesn't seem to recover though, you just run around for a half an hour with all the mobs and players glued in place. Some of them killing you.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:21 PM
Defiance has had connectivity problems all through the life of the game, they have not gone away, and in fact have worsened. It's a bug, somewhere, it can show its ugly head one moment and you'll be fine the rest of the night after you reload the client. You can get it when you're out collecting data recorders, but you're most likely to get it when you're around lots of other players.

In defiance, the server crits you.

And they laid off the folks that had the best chance fixing the bug over a year ago.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:22 PM
I liked that people could basically make their own weapons. It took the ridiculous prices of guns down from hundreds of thousands to a more "acceptable" level (opinion, of course). It also made trades with green and blue weapons acceptable and people could even make a "living" by performing AF actions on weapons for other people.


I liked all that stuff too.

Reb Graybeard
08-07-2014, 02:22 PM
Appeal to Authority fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority) We are all super professionals on the Internet.



See previous post. I have found no indication in any of the official posts, Q&As etc that the arkforge, not loot, was the primary way to advance.

In fact, if mentioned at all, its mentioned in the context of upgrading the EGO rating of a few special rares and the primary function advertised was the possibility of modifier re-rolls, name customization, etc.

If I'm missing something, feel free to show it to me. Otherwise, what was said in the explanation for the Encryption/arkforge changes makes perfect sense in context.

Until I see specific proof, via Trion devs, where they do indeed tout the arkforge system and the hundreds of ojs it produced as intended, assuming they are lying just because they want our monies is an empty, unverifiable assumption, which in turn is eliminated by Occam's razor.

This is actually part of what made me want to write the OP. For the life of me, I never saw anything that would indicate the great betrayal/cashgrab/etc. But I did explain that in the OP, so yeah.

Feel free to slap me in the face with a Trion source that specifically says otherwise, I couldn't find any in neither the forums nor the news on the site. Instead, what I see is an MMO population doing what they do best - finding an unbalanced mechanic and using it ad nauseum (due to how item rarities should work in an item chaser, also argued the point to death here), then getting mad when the developer plugs the hole.

So far, the only really understandable source of grief were the flip flops design wise since launch and the long term connectivity/server issues that have been around for quite a while, but those do not come attached to the scenes of betrayal and an attempt to milk wallets.Watch the live streams or read the transcripts on DD. The ones preceding the launch of the introduction of ark forge and its ability to raise rarity. Mr. ******* is quoted in response to a question that indeed yes, you'll be able to raise a weapons level from white to orange.

As said before, I disagreed with it then. But, it was introduced. Touted and sold. The scrambling that went into fixing it because of all the issues it caused when it was introduced made your head spin.

The guarantees of all the forge that you would be able to acquire in events because defiance would not be known as a P2W game. The giving of forge as compensation when issues would arise. These latest nerfs go against the grain of everything that they showed for months leading to them.

Three Dog
08-07-2014, 02:23 PM
This is only true if you treat it as the primary progression system, which you really shouldn't be doing, as communicated by the developers. You can of course twist that to fit the money grubbing conspiracy theory, but considering the current bit price levels for various progression related items in the store, the official developer explanation just makes way more sense imho.

To me, this seems like a much more engaging system then watching arkforge numbers go up and down and junking everything I find..


Of course it would be considered primary progression system. You would be a fool to think it wouldn`t be. They didn`t need to spell it out that it was. With the old system you had two options. One would be to keep the great low ego weapons you find and have them grow with you while you grind, or hope for higher tier drops with good rolls while you grind. You could even do both. I myself purchased extra inventory space because I found a lot of neat weapons that I wanted to upgrade as my ego raised. I knew it wouldn`t happen overnight but I had them at least. I even planned on buying more space because I keep finding weapons that have the potential to become something fun to use. Now I have no reason to that and no reason to buy more space. And I`m sure I`m not the only one who feels this. The game has nothing else to offer other then weapon progression and grind once your`e up there in ego level. The only reason these changes were put in place was to control the rate at which you could upgrade to increase sales. In the end though, you and I are two different types of players and probably will not agree on anything if you think the new system is actually a good idea.

jay ellis
08-07-2014, 02:24 PM
Op is completely off base and probably works for trion. After our community team refused to come on here and defend awful decisions, they probably created this account to put out some fires. Ive played since day one and this game has always been about the chase for the best gear and spending time with awesome arkhunters. Now those arkhunters are looking for lifeboats before the whole thing sinks. Better gear has never come from drops or running maps, it always came from lockboxes. I dont know how anyone with such an intimate knowledge of this game could ever claim that we should upgrade our inventory with items from mob drops, lolololol. The only way to do that was arkforge. It was perfect. If you like wolfs you could play for a month saving arkforge until you pull a double crit blue one with a nano and syn you liked. Then upgrade it and keep it forever. This guy says we shouldn't all be running around with the best items bexause thats not what other mmo's are about. Maybe he hasnt considered that i dont give a **** about other mmos. He says he doesn't care about the vets with hundreds of ojs. You know why i have that many? Because ive been playing and trying to get better stuff and i never know patch to patch what's gonna be the best new nano and whats gonna get nerfed into friggin dust. He says ojs should never be disposable, but i didnt ask for total crap rolls and useless syns, the rng gave me all that crap.trion made them disposable right out of the box. And i mean lockbox cause thats where you get them. Ever see a "legendary" no nano outlaw wolf with three acc rolls and a oj fire rate roll? Rather use a blue one? Yeah that was fine until thay made oj ones do more dmg. This game has turned into a money grab joke. The op defending it and telling us its better in the long run for everyone is laughable.
Sorry for spelling/grammar, typing on my phone and i have big muscular thumbs because im a god damn gamer, and i god damn grind for mine.
Jay Ellis

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:24 PM
Which is why they need to figure something out outside of RNG. This game used to be that way when it was horizontal progression which I liked.

I guess I can see how some people would like that.. but imagine how boring it would be if you picked up a votan weapon and it was exactly the same as the votan weapon someone else picks up.. or exactly the same as every other one you pick up. The only difference is the rarity. That... would be pretty boring.

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 02:26 PM
I liked all that stuff too.

What I'd really love is for Trion to ditch the rarity upgrades and instead let us spend AF to change just about every aspect of a cherished gun. Roll by roll, from the synergy to the fire rate. If it took two months for me to make my dream combat shottie that would be a longer, more fulfilling chase.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:26 PM
Op is completely off base and probably works for trion. After our community team refused to come on here and defend awful decisions, they probably created this account to put out some fires. Ive played since day one and this game has always been about the chase for the best gear and spending time with awesome arkhunters. Now those arkhunters are looking for lifeboats before the whole thing sinks. Better gear has never come from drops or running maps, it always came from lockboxes. I dont know how anyone with such an intimate knowledge of this game could ever claim that we should upgrade our inventory with items from mob drops, lolololol. The only way to do that was arkforge. It was perfect. If you like wolfs you could play for a month saving arkforge until you pull a double crit blue one with a nano and syn you liked. Then upgrade it and keep it forever. This guy says we shouldn't all be running around with the best items bexause thats not what other mmo's are about. Maybe he hasnt considered that i dont give a **** about other mmos. He says he doesn't care about the vets with hundreds of ojs. You know why i have that many? Because ive been playing and trying to get better stuff and i never know patch to patch what's gonna be the best new nano and whats gonna get nerfed into friggin dust. He says ojs should never be disposable, but i didnt ask for total crap rolls and useless syns, the rng gave me all that crap.trion made them disposable right out of the box. And i mean lockbox cause thats where you get them. Ever see a "legendary" no nano outlaw wolf with three acc rolls and a oj fire rate roll? Rather use a blue one? Yeah that was fine until thay made oj ones do more dmg. This game has turned into a money grab joke. The op defending it and telling us its better in the long run for everyone is laughable.
Sorry for spelling/grammar, typing on my phone and i have big muscular thumbs because im a god damn gamer, and i god damn grind for mine.
Jay Ellis

If you enjoy the grind, why are you so down on RNG?

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:28 PM
I guess I can see how some people would like that.. but imagine how boring it would be if you picked up a votan weapon and it was exactly the same as the votan weapon someone else picks up.. or exactly the same as every other one you pick up. The only difference is the rarity. That... would be pretty boring.

I was there when it was like that, and it wasn't boring. There are always different stats to it which made it different. It meant that the weapon I got at ego 2000 could still be used at ego 5k because the damage stats were the same. I like having personal weapons instead of tossing them out every 100 ego levels.

N3gativeCr33p
08-07-2014, 02:30 PM
I like having personal weapons instead of tossing them out every 100 ego levels.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

jay ellis
08-07-2014, 02:30 PM
If you enjoy the grind, why are you so down on RNG?

Because they're nerfing the grind at every turn and making it easy to buy your way in.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:30 PM
You clearly don't speak to anyone.

I've watched my friends list empty as people got sick of the game being a mess, multiple times. Guilds fold because they can't get on or play steadily together without problems.

But in truth, I don't think it's the servers, per se. It's more like a lag compensation bug. We all see rubber banding from time to time even on the absolute best connections to the absolute best run games. Defiance doesn't seem to recover though, you just run around for a half an hour with all the mobs and players glued in place. Some of them killing you.

Right.. besides the people that I talk to..... which are lots of people. I know this... because... that's what I said in the post you quoted.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps there may be some issue with their systems or OS that might need to be looked at instead of automatically blaming the game?

I'm not being a fanboy here, I realize the game has some issues. But lag isn't one of them. I've never run into those issues you're talking about. I've never seen monsters stick in place, never seen things stop, never been disconnected during an incursion.

I've seen the other players get pulled out of the graphics.. which actually should be an option IMHO. They just get in the way most of the time anyway (as I do.. just a matter of blocked view).

But I've never seen rubber banding, never seen monsters glued into place that were actually there. I've seen ghost images of monsters in broken events in Silicon Valley. I've seen that a couple times. But they didn't suddenly come to life and attack....

So, as I said.. there is some other issue here.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:31 PM
I was there when it was like that, and it wasn't boring. There are always different stats to it which made it different. It meant that the weapon I got at ego 2000 could still be used at ego 5k because the damage stats were the same. I like having personal weapons instead of tossing them out every 100 ego levels.

No.. I said without rolls or stats. I'm buying into the NON RNG version of the weapons you're describing and I see completely boredom.

As far as the weapons go... you can always upgrade their rating.

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:32 PM
Right.. besides the people that I talk to..... which are lots of people. I know this... because... that's what I said in the post you quoted.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps there may be some issue with their systems or OS that might need to be looked at instead of automatically blaming the game?

I'm not being a fanboy here, I realize the game has some issues. But lag isn't one of them. I've never run into those issues you're talking about. I've never seen monsters stick in place, never seen things stop, never been disconnected during an incursion.

I've seen the other players get pulled out of the graphics.. which actually should be an option IMHO. They just get in the way most of the time anyway (as I do.. just a matter of blocked view).

But I've never seen rubber banding, never seen monsters glued into place that were actually there. I've seen ghost images of monsters in broken events in Silicon Valley. I've seen that a couple times. But they didn't suddenly come to life and attack....

So, as I said.. there is some other issue here.

It actually is the game. You just have been lucky. These issues have been around since the game started.


No.. I said without rolls or stats. I'm buying into the NON RNG version of the weapons you're describing and I see completely boredom.

As far as the weapons go... you can always upgrade their rating.

They nerfed you doing that though.

N3gativeCr33p
08-07-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm not being a fanboy here, I realize the game has some issues. But lag isn't one of them. I've never run into those issues you're talking about. I've never seen monsters stick in place, never seen things stop, never been disconnected during an incursion.

Hilarious.

http://i.imgur.com/MZc8iYS.gif

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:35 PM
I've never run into those issues you're talking about. I've never seen monsters stick in place, never seen things stop, never been disconnected during an incursion.

He has also never been to sleep, never changed his clothes, and never eaten due to hunger.

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:36 PM
It actually is the game. You just have been lucky. These issues have been around since the game farted.

Fixed that for ya.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:36 PM
It actually is the game. You just have been lucky. These issues have been around since the game started.




They nerfed you doing that though.

They didn't nerf upgrading ratings.. I've done it several times today.

Reb Graybeard
08-07-2014, 02:37 PM
Right.. besides the people that I talk to..... which are lots of people. I know this... because... that's what I said in the post you quoted.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps there may be some issue with their systems or OS that might need to be looked at instead of automatically blaming the game?

I'm not being a fanboy here, I realize the game has some issues. But lag isn't one of them. I've never run into those issues you're talking about. I've never seen monsters stick in place, never seen things stop, never been disconnected during an incursion.

I've seen the other players get pulled out of the graphics.. which actually should be an option IMHO. They just get in the way most of the time anyway (as I do.. just a matter of blocked view).

But I've never seen rubber banding, never seen monsters glued into place that were actually there. I've seen ghost images of monsters in broken events in Silicon Valley. I've seen that a couple times. But they didn't suddenly come to life and attack....

So, as I said.. there is some other issue here.The Company has finally admitted that there are serious issues as far as the consoles go concerning latency and stability.

In the days of yore, they claimed it was our system, connection, Sony/xbox, anything that would take the responsibility off of them.

When I can play any other game in my library without any of the issues that I experience with Defiance, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the problem lies.

On a good night of a 5-6 hour session, I can go an hour with only 2-3 discos and a hard freeze. On bad nights, I turn it off and play something else.

The stability issues are there. They are on The Companys side. They are constantly "claiming" to be working on it.

It is definitely worse now than when I started playing over a year ago.

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 02:37 PM
Appeal to Authority fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority) We are all super professionals on the Internet.

Nice try, but that's only a logical fallacy when misused. You have yet delivered another slab of prose to say "I take everything Trion says for face value".

Interesting how you singled out a sole element of my initial post, without addressing it's entirety.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:37 PM
Hilarious.

http://i.imgur.com/MZc8iYS.gif


Again, always fun to see a troll.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:38 PM
He has also never been to sleep, never changed his clothes, and never eaten due to hunger.

Awww.. another one. You guys shoudl be friends.

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:38 PM
They didn't nerf upgrading ratings.. I've done it several times today.

They nerfed the drop rate of AF which makes it impossible for me to keep my two weapons up at the rate I level.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:39 PM
They nerfed the drop rate of AF which makes it impossible for me to keep my two weapons up at the rate I level.

I still get lots of AF from the daily and weekly rewards.

Are you talking about freebie AF?

Storm58
08-07-2014, 02:40 PM
Awww.. another one. You guys shoudl be friends.

...another one what? Another one bites the dust? I don't get it.

You're silly. :)

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:40 PM
The Company has finally admitted that there are serious issues as far as the consoles go concerning latency and stability.

In the days of yore, they claimed it was our system, connection, Sony/xbox, anything that would take the responsibility off of them.

When I can play any other game in my library without any of the issues that I experience with Defiance, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the problem lies.

On a good night of a 5-6 hour session, I can go an hour with only 2-3 discos and a hard freeze. On bad nights, I turn it off and play something else.

The stability issues are there. They are on The Companys side. They are constantly "claiming" to be working on it.

It is definitely worse now than when I started playing over a year ago.

Thanks for the post.

I play on the PC so I'm not familiar with the connection issues via the consoles. Thanks for reminding me :)

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:41 PM
I still get lots of AF from the daily and weekly rewards.

Are you talking about freebie AF?

Odd, that must be a bug because everyone else only gets a small amount.

Pandur
08-07-2014, 02:42 PM
Actually I'd agree that the unlimited rarity upgrade was a bad Idea, still implementing it and remove is even worse.

Thing is the loot setup for defiance is now(and kinda always was) about as bad as the one of Diablo 3 at it's inception.
Wastly unrewarding with 99,9% garbage drops and the only reliable chance to get decent gear being the auction house.
We all know how good that went over with the players.

N3gativeCr33p
08-07-2014, 02:42 PM
...another one what? Another one bites the dust? I don't get it.

You're silly. :)

He's upset because I think his review of Defiance is total shtako. So he's convinced we're both trolls.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:44 PM
Odd, that must be a bug because everyone else only gets a small amount.

It's random, but it's as good as it was before... granted, I have all of the DLCs, preorders, packs and starter packs also.

So.. my experience may not mirror the average player.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:44 PM
He's upset because I think his review of Defiance is total shtako.

You're derailing this thread. Not that it's upsetting, but I'm sure you can find a way to get back on topic.

Pandur
08-07-2014, 02:47 PM
I still get lots of AF from the daily and weekly rewards.

Are you talking about freebie AF?

You mean the weekly and daily boxes ? There's only Arkforge in there if you're a patron(well and a slight chance if you have the DLC'S on PC).
That's pretty much the same as buying it from the store.

The daily and weekly missions never rewarded Arkforge.

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 02:48 PM
I still get lots of AF from the daily and weekly rewards.

Are you talking about freebie AF?

I am talking about AF from events and such. I need 100 every 100 ego I gain which I gain very quickly. I am not going to abandon the weapons I have had for year now over a stupid green or blue.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
So.. my experience may not mirror the average player.

Pretty sure there will be no argument on that statement.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
I am talking about AF from events and such. I need 100 every 100 ego I gain which I gain very quickly. I am not going to abandon the weapons I have had for year now over a stupid green or blue.

Makes sense.

I never really kept track since I just buy some when I need it. But, that could be possibly the point. In a game that's F2P they have to make some money somehow. If folks aren't willing supporting the game, sometimes a little discomfort can be thrown in.

Pandur
08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Makes sense.

I never really kept track since I just buy some when I need it. But, that could be possibly the point. In a game that's F2P they have to make some money somehow. If folks aren't willing supporting the game, sometimes a little discomfort can be thrown in.

Are you from wales by chance ?

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Pretty sure there will be no argument on that statement.

Probably not considering most people don't own all the DLCs, the packs, have all the preorder bonuses, etc.

But, as you might be aware, the topic is recent changes.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Are you from wales by chance ?

That relates to the topic, how?

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
I never really kept track since I just buy some when I need it.

You know that pretty much shoots your arkforge drop rate credibility in the head right?

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Makes sense.

I never really kept track since I just buy some when I need it. But, that could be possibly the point. In a game that's F2P they have to make some money somehow. If folks aren't willing supporting the game, sometimes a little discomfort can be thrown in.

Hasn't always been F2P, and we did support it -quite generously for some of us- yet we have to experience more discomfort ?

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:56 PM
You know that pretty much shoots your arkforge drop rate credibility in the head right?

Considering I only mentioned I get it from daily bonuses.... I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Darien
08-07-2014, 02:57 PM
but the subject does require a verbose explanation imho, it is as short as I can make it while covering all aspects as I see them.

This is the only part that I disagree with you on. There is a very simple explanation for all of the outrage: Trion is HORRIBLE at thinking about the long-term ramifications of what they are doing.

If ANY of the features that you mentioned were implemented on day one the way they are now, no one would have a justifiable argument.

You can only upgrade rarity once? Hey, great. You made it possible to make something that I really love a little bit better.

Keycodes are really expensive to purchase en masse, because you should not get more from the vendor than the Warmaster? That makes perfect sense.

The problem is that Trion released features that were ridiculously overpowered (Especially the Rarity upgrades), then promptly nerf them to oblivion. No one likes to get nerfed, and we are seeing massive nerfs in EVERY patch.

The keycodes you could always buy? 10x more expensive.

Those weapons we JUST released? We are not even going to wait for a patch, we are going to nerf them in a hotfix.

The most anticipated feature ever? Yeah, about that... Now you can only do it once and you probably need to fork over real money to use it.

Every other game developer has learned that you start underpowered, then buff things to prevent a **** storm. Trion needs to learn things that Blizzard figured out for them 12 years ago. They steal everything else anyway (See Rift).

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 02:57 PM
Hasn't always been F2P, and we did support it -quite generously for some of us- yet we have to experience more discomfort ?

The tree doesn't grow on water you gave it years ago.

Superfluous
08-07-2014, 02:57 PM
As said before, I disagreed with it then. But, it was introduced. Touted and sold. The scrambling that went into fixing it because of all the issues it caused when it was introduced made your head spin.


And that's the key to it all exactly. It's not that the new system is horrible. It's the path that we took to get here.

Take 2 identical groups of gamers, and put them in 2 almost identical games... the only difference being that one has an extremely restrictive loot system and one offers an overly generous system. Over the course of a year, nerf one system and buff the other until they are exactly the same.

In the end, even though it is the exact same game they are currently playing, the community that was buffed to get there will be happy and continue to support their game. The one that was nerfed to get there will have a forum that looks like ours here in Defiance. Before long this game will fail, while the other succeeds, even though they are exactly the same.

In the game that has been nerfed, you have a situation where new players will never be able to compete with those that were there back in the good old days. The older players will be pissy that they have to work twice as hard as they used to to get any improvements. The newer players won't be around long when they see that they will never get what the older players already have.

In the game that has been buffed, the older players get to feel superior because they did it "back when it was hard". The newer players still have a chance to catch up fairly quickly, since there are new opportunities that didn't used to exist. Everyone is happy.

The issue here is, once you give us something, you're stuck. You can't take it back and expect people to accept it.

drackiller
08-07-2014, 02:59 PM
You know that pretty much shoots your arkforge drop rate credibility in the head right?

Yeah, Arkforge drop rate is fine if you buy it...LOL

Pandur
08-07-2014, 03:01 PM
Yeah, Arkforge drop rate is fine if you buy it...LOL

WAI, at least we found one person that is part of the target audience.
I was wondering if that audience existed.

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 03:01 PM
The tree doesn't grow on water you gave it years ago.

A F2P game you have to keep pouring cash in merely works on a disguised subscription.

Besides, the tree analogy is terrible. There's no need for watering when rain does the trick, unless you're trying to grow trees in Antartica or the middle of some desert. In that case, solicit those willing to assist but don't try to coerce everyone into it.

Create a fertile environment and water will keep flowing, if not plumbing needs some fixing.

See ? I can use analogies too.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 03:03 PM
I have to stop and wonder if people take posts the wrong way on purpose, or if they're really that supremely dense that they can't put two and two together.

I think I'll just chalk it up to trolling and let the powers-that-be decide.

Superfluous
08-07-2014, 03:03 PM
This is the only part that I disagree with you on. There is a very simple explanation for all of the outrage: Trion is HORRIBLE at thinking about the long-term ramifications of what they are doing.

If ANY of the features that you mentioned were implemented on day one the way they are now, no one would have a justifiable argument.

You can only upgrade rarity once? Hey, great. You made it possible to make something that I really love a little bit better.

Keycodes are really expensive to purchase en masse, because you should not get more from the vendor than the Warmaster? That makes perfect sense.

The problem is that Trion released features that were ridiculously overpowered (Especially the Rarity upgrades), then promptly nerf them to oblivion. No one likes to get nerfed, and we are seeing massive nerfs in EVERY patch.

The keycodes you could always buy? 10x more expensive.

Those weapons we JUST released? We are not even going to wait for a patch, we are going to nerf them in a hotfix.

The most anticipated feature ever? Yeah, about that... Now you can only do it once and you probably need to fork over real money to use it.

Every other game developer has learned that you start underpowered, then buff things to prevent a **** storm. Trion needs to learn things that Blizzard figured out for them 12 years ago. They steal everything else anyway (See Rift).

Lol, you said basically the same thing I did, a couple of seconds sooner. That must mean we're right.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 03:04 PM
A F2P game you have to keep pouring cash in merely works on a disguised subscription.

Besides, the tree analogy is terrible. There's no need for watering when rain does the trick.

Except that it actually HAS a subscription. It's actually a nice set up too. I get 20% bonus exp and lots of other stuff too. Plus a 10% discount from the in-game store.

It's pretty nice.

Pandur
08-07-2014, 03:05 PM
Except that it actually HAS a subscription. It's actually a nice set up too. I get 20% bonus exp and lots of other stuff too. Plus a 10% discount from the in-game store.

It's pretty nice.

You know on that I actually agree, the patron system is one of the few things in the game that offers decent enough bang for the buck.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 03:07 PM
You know on that I actually agree, the patron system is one of the few things in the game that offers decent enough bang for the buck.

0.o

I'm uncomfortable with you agreeing with me for some reason...

I feel like I'm being Punk'd.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 03:09 PM
Except that it actually HAS a subscription. It's actually a nice set up too. I get 20% bonus exp and lots of other stuff too. Plus a 10% discount from the in-game store.

It's pretty nice.

You have been playing since beta and you still use an exp boost?

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 03:12 PM
You have been playing since beta and you still use an exp boost?

I see what you're doing.. and I have to say, it's pretty immature. If you want to harass someone, do it in another thread. I'm trying to be civil with you. But, the whole feigned ignorance thing and misquoting, etc.. it's getting old because there's nobody on this earth (I hope) that would really be that wondrously inquisitive....................................... .............................................

Pandur
08-07-2014, 03:14 PM
0.o

I'm uncomfortable with you agreeing with me for some reason...

I feel like I'm being Punk'd.

Why ? I have no problem with decent monetization systems, just with the blatant rip offs Trion pulls all too often.

Ironically the score boosts of the patron pass and in general score boosts have been devalued too with the latest reward adjustments.

Bacon Overlord
08-07-2014, 03:16 PM
Why ? I have no problem with decent monetization systems, just with the blatant rip offs Trion pulls all too often.

Ironically the score boosts of the patron pass and in general score boosts have been devalued too with the latest reward adjustments.

I never really understood the whole score boosts though. It's all random as far as the rewards anyway.. I've gotten more OJ weapons from arriving at the tail end of an incursion than I ever have being 1st in it.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 03:16 PM
I see what you're doing.. and I have to say, it's pretty immature. If you want to harass someone, do it in another thread. I'm trying to be civil with you. But, the whole feigned ignorance thing and misquoting, etc.. it's getting old because there's nobody on this earth (I hope) that would really be that wondrously inquisitive....................................... .............................................

No, genuinely curious how exp benefits you.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 03:16 PM
Nice try, but that's only a logical fallacy when misused. You have yet delivered another slab of prose to say "I take everything Trion says for face value".

It is a fallacy when you appeal to your supposed experience as an argument, which is exactly what you did.

Your post basically read "They lie, because I know how to lie!" which is exactly said fallacy.



Interesting how you singled out a sole element of my initial post, without addressing it's entirety.

You edited your post.

It still has absolutely nothing I can address, because you do not have anything I could dispute, address, etc.

Considering that you've edited your post after I answered it and then tried to call me on it and I've also seen you do the same with another post while writing this one, I'm done with this particular conversation in this thread.



Watch the live streams or read the transcripts on DD. The ones preceding the launch of the introduction of ark forge and its ability to raise rarity. Mr. ******* is quoted in response to a question that indeed yes, you'll be able to raise a weapons level from white to orange.


That is a description of how a system works, not its intended use and I have seen that.



The guarantees of all the forge that you would be able to acquire in events because defiance would not be known as a P2W game. The giving of forge as compensation when issues would arise. These latest nerfs go against the grain of everything that they showed for months leading to them.


Current pricing is prohibitive and suggests sporadic intended use. Acceleration of advancement and/or resources are fairly normal fare for F2P games.

P2W would imply that people who pay have access to something that players who don't do not have access to. That is not the case.

The rest of the posts I've seen addressed directly at me mention things that I've already explained a few times here and are based on opinion without arguments I could actually... Argue, so there is nothing more I can really say.

CM Kiwibird
08-07-2014, 05:06 PM
Hey there, it looks like this thread was closed. It's open again now.

konstantinov
08-07-2014, 05:07 PM
Hey there, it looks like this thread was closed. It's open again now.

I thought 60% of it or so was actually fairly constructive. That Jester is such a joker.

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 05:21 PM
Your post basically read "They lie, because I know how to lie!" which is exactly said fallacy.

Nope, I wrote "I get paid to write that kind of lies, and I can tell from experience when I'm lied to". And yes, I edit my posts a lot. There's always something in need of improvement that creeps in.

But that's not the point here.

I find it odd you carefully avoided the whole part about how unrewarding the chase you're advocating is.

Now let's say all communication has to be taken at face value, no hidden agenda of any kind involved. That would mean rarity upgrades and arkforge as a resource were implemented without their impact on gameplay being properly assessed.

This is extremely unsettling and doesn't bode well for further additions or modifications.

All discussions about Defiance's direction always return to the same point. Official communication and effective impact of changes ingame are very different and they've been that way ever since launch. You can't blame players for no longer trusting Trion.

The game isn't easy to handle, the original team isn't around anymore after all.

But at this point, some straight talk would do much better than big promises and grandiloquent statements. We'd like to hang on, but we also want to go where the ride goes.

The biggest issue I have about your -well constructed- posts is they're entirely constructed from a developers/publishers view and relate in no way to a players situation.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 05:23 PM
Cool Beans! Thanks Kiwi.

Dandrielas
08-07-2014, 05:38 PM
Cool. It's back. Umm, something something AF something the end.

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 05:46 PM
Cool. It's back. Umm, something something AF something the end.

Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! AF! Blah blah blah yakketty schmakkety, NERF! Rabble! Discord! Etcetera, etcetera.

I still want a way more robust weapon modification mechanic.

Lucent
08-07-2014, 05:52 PM
Time to pop in quick to say:
1. I have such a collection of legendaries because I have played almost 1000 hours. One-thousand.
2. The 20% XP boost you get from paying means nothing to people who have capped their XP, so it is sort of a sucky bonus.

silencer_pl
08-07-2014, 06:08 PM
I still want a way more robust weapon modification mechanic.

They did mention stuff like renaming your weapon to something fancy. I wouldn't mind re-skinning either, with premium skins too. No idea where it is down the pipe now though.

Ruinne
08-07-2014, 06:14 PM
They did mention stuff like renaming your weapon to something fancy. I wouldn't mind re-skinning either, with premium skins too. No idea where it is down the pipe now though.

I want to be able to go through a weapon roll by roll, make it take a titanic effort, that would be great. That would be a long and fulfilling chase. There isn't a chase right now, you just drive down the highway with your lights on and hope a really cool bug ends up on your windscreen.

Odessa
08-07-2014, 06:39 PM
Time to pop in quick to say:
1. I have such a collection of legendaries because I have played almost 1000 hours. One-thousand.
2. The 20% XP boost you get from paying means nothing to people who have capped their XP, so it is sort of a sucky bonus.

This is me. Over 1,000 hours as well means you're bound to run across OJs, even if they're not great ones. I have so many I waffled on raising to my EGO simply because I wasn't sure if they'd be as effective, only to lose the chance to really test them out without paying for it in cash. I maxed my EGO without even finishing pursuits, so yeah.. the bonus XP is really nothing.

Bonehead
08-07-2014, 07:01 PM
Believe it or not, over 3000 hours for me.

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 07:07 PM
Believe it or not, over 3000 hours for me.

Only 1.800 or so for me. First OJ ever dropped at 1.200 hours roughly, and was woefully bad of course.

mr8liner
08-07-2014, 07:47 PM
Believe it or not, over 3000 hours for me.

How do you know how many hours you have played the game???

I was told that if you type in /played, that it tells you the amount, but it doesn't work for me.

Could you please let me know how to check it out??

DeadEye68
08-07-2014, 07:50 PM
It may not show up in your default chat tab, check the other ones.

DIS
08-07-2014, 08:06 PM
They did mention stuff like renaming your weapon to something fancy. I wouldn't mind re-skinning either, with premium skins too. No idea where it is down the pipe now though.

Hope you don't mind paying bits for those skins.

DIS
08-07-2014, 08:08 PM
How do you know how many hours you have played the game???

I was told that if you type in /played, that it tells you the amount, but it doesn't work for me.

Could you please let me know how to check it out??

Make sure you have System chat turned on for whichever tab you are looking at.

hardy83
08-07-2014, 08:33 PM
Any changes to loot drops and quality are directly related to them wanting people in the bit store. It's no secret and it's also obvious.

Another thing though is that Trick wants a "chase". When he first started making major changes, he tried to make OJs harder to get, which in itself is fine, a little jarring for current players, but if orange weapons are the peak of gear advancement, then it, I imagine, should be hard to get ones.
However, when they introduced the upgrade system in DLC5, they made it easy, even though to upgrade to a lot of orange you'd most likely need to buy from the bit shop, to get OJs again with arkforge.
Which THEN recently, they nerfed both the arkforge rewards as well as introduced the encrypted system to make it harder to get to orange.

The issue I think many people have, aside from again, it being jarring for current players since it fundamentally changes gear progression, is that they are "flip flopping".
Trion wants to make OJs harder to get, so they do, but then go back to making it easy, but then back to making it even harder than before.

I'm sure many are feeling jerked around, and the strong push to the bit shop isn't helping.
The encryption system also punishes casual players. Not being able to upgrade greens to even epic quality just makes so much loot useless or perma gimps a lot of players who are now joining.

From my experience with this company, they tend to do extremes, they very rarely meet in the middle.
They will change something that completely satisfies them, usually to the determent to the player, then afterwards change it a little to make players at least satisfied. Only to do it again later.

I mean if you look at it purely from a business point of view, you can understand the reasoning for all the changes...However, I do not know what's going on in the business and marketing departments. They can not reasonably think these changes are a good thing, and the constant "jerking around" of veteran players.
NOT because I think veteran players should be catered to, but in the video game world, veteran players are brand ambassadors, especially for MMOs. Any marketing newbie will know what that is, and with so many vets telling people to not play the game just...Is confusing.
I mean I have the highest rated Steam review (surprisingly) and my main argument for playing the game is..It's free, so why not. lol With my second point being the servers might infuriate you. That's hardly a glowing review.
Do they think the bit store push will counter so many bitter brand ambassadors constant suggestion to play other games? I guess, I dunno.

I think Trion really needs to learn to stop doing extremes.
Listening to player feedback is fine, but it should be proactive, not reactionary.
Changing the games gear progression is one thing, but to constantly flip flop with extreme design changes, I can understand why people are upset.


Personally I think FAR better systems would be to:

A: Let people upgrade weapons all they want, but flat out NOT let weapons be upgradable to orange quality. Epic being the max.
It doesn't punish casual players, still encourage the bit shop, but makes oranges come down to (bit store version way overpriced) lockboxes and playing content.

B: A daily cap on how much Arkforge you can earn.
It would still give people the feeling or satisfaction in completing content and getting high on the event ladders, but it still gives Trion the control they always want.
Sure it might make many players just stop bothering to play for the day, but if you say, have a max of 10-20 AF for an event and make the daily cap like...I dunno.. 100, I think that's a fair enough expectation to have for players in terms of their playtime for the game.
Don't make this WoW where you need to do 40+ dailies for hours everyday. Make the expectation that players should play about 3ish hours a day to get their full rewards in regards to Arkforge if they just focus on that or something.
It also encourages logging in every day, which is FAR more important for an MMO than playing all day.

That's my opinion anyways.

BJWyler
08-07-2014, 08:35 PM
My problem is that if they don't want us to upgrade and want higher level enemies to drop better gear, why do top level enemies drop blues? Or why there's only one arkfall you can get legendary items from. Diablos economy got crazy and they started loot 2.0 system and you get a nice epic or legendary item every 20-60 minutes as drops from difficult enemies. They know how to keep you chasing.

This.


To be fair Trion has the chase pretty well hammered down. So well hammered down in fact that not only are we chasing through all these blues greens and purps but 99% of legendary weapons are trash :cool:

and this.

It would be one thing if Defiance had the mechanics to support what the OP was going on about. However, the only progression we have had (since progression other than Weapon Skills leveling has been added) has been upgrading our weapons. Part of the theory presented here is that as we progress through levels of the game, the loot we are chasing is supposed to be getting progressively better. That has distinctly not been the case. More often than not, most of the loot drops are utter vendor trash (which is not all that surprising), but as mentioned, even "boss" like enemies pretty much drop trash and you get the same trash whether you are in Mount Tam or in SF/SV. There is no progression of loot to chase in the game.

Add that to the fact that "it's not about money" is patently wrong. In the blog which introduced the encryption system to players, the devs all but said that the limit to rarity upgrading was precisely because lockbox sales had dropped. The utter problem with Defiance that any and all "chases" begin and end with RNG, and the devs team inability to add changes in the proper order - you don't add a loot chase to a game until there is loot worthy of chasing and an actual progression system that does not make said chase utterly frustrating instead of fulfilling. The modding and upgrading system has been the closet thing we have had to a player crafting system in the game - a very important aspect in an MMO. That has promptly been nerfed thanks to the new changes to the game.

Personally speaking, I would not have even noticed the nerf to key and AF rewards had not a vertical progression system been added to the game. For me, the only chase I have been interested in was getting better at shooting things in the face with the weapons I have found to be my favorite ones to use for one reason or another. The experience of the gameplay has what has kept me playing and kept me interested in the game - not the loot, and the recent changes, starting with 1.5 has certainly done little to improve said gameplay experience, and dare it be said - has made it worse in some cases. The only thing that would interest me in a loot chase would be looking for stronger versions of those weapons as I am progressing through the game. Prior to these changes, the Matrix with the Rating and Rarity upgrades were the only way for me to get said "loot."

Ultimately, the design and vision of Defiance has changed drastically over the last 16 months. OP, you were not here at the beginning when we had a game that many, many of us veterans believed in and enjoyed playing. The changes of late have fundamentally changed this game in a way that is not appealing to many of us and certainly created a style of gameplay that we did not originally come here for. Outrage is most certainly justifiable in this case. Quite frankly, Defiance is becoming less unique in the great ocean of MMOs out there, and had we known then what we know now, many of us would have opted to invest our time in games that have done a much better job at those mechanics and designs than Defiance.

Odessa
08-07-2014, 09:25 PM
These points really need to be restated to keep the reasons for WHY people are so frustrated in perspective.


Believe it or not, over 3000 hours for me.

Oh I believe it. I had some awesome person get the stats for me (I wasn't sure if it was per character):

Odessa: Time Played: 1,614.0 hours
D1rk: Time Played: 278.0 hours
C0r1nne: Time Played: 75.0 hours
Bela Dona: Time Played: 19.0 hours

Total time played: 1,986 hours.

jay ellis
08-08-2014, 09:19 AM
The main problem as I see it: they keep making the grind longer without making it more fulfilling. If they want orange guns to be the end game they should ensure that every orange gun absolutely blows you away. I have pulled at least a thousand ojs since launch and 990 of them were trash. That was fine since i could pull 1000 and keep 10. In the current incarnation of defiance i will probably pull 2 per week and we all know what they're gonna look like.

Make them hard to get, make them hard to upgrade, make them so god damn rare that you have to grind your thumbs to the bone or get really lucky, but if you do,..... make them legendary.

silencer_pl
08-08-2014, 10:02 AM
Hope you don't mind paying bits for those skins.

Yes, that is what premium skins mean, just like the premium character ones.



It would be one thing if Defiance had the mechanics to support what the OP was going on about. However, the only progression we have had (since progression other than Weapon Skills leveling has been added) has been upgrading our weapons. Part of the theory presented here is that as we progress through levels of the game, the loot we are chasing is supposed to be getting progressively better.


This to me seems to be one of the core misunderstandings of gear chase systems I've seen around here.

Vertical and Horizontal drop systems were in place since AR. They do get progressively better - their base EGO rating increases with your own, I went into detail on that already.

Again, in a loot chaser, you build and adjust your build (variables you control via EGO board loadouts, mods etc) around the loot you get, not the other way around. As you level up and unlock more grids on the board, you ability to build around the higher quality loot you get rises as well.

You are not supposed to have higher chances at higher rarity items just based on your level, because your level is a measure of veterancy. The ability to maximize your results and/or take on higher difficulty challenges (higher potential rewards for high scoring in events is a representation of the former, the legendary vendors tied to expert dungeons a representation of the latter) is what should affect your chances for drops here.



More often than not, most of the loot drops are utter vendor trash (which is not all that surprising), but as mentioned, even "boss" like enemies pretty much drop trash and you get the same trash whether you are in Mount Tam or in SF/SV. There is no progression of loot to chase in the game.


Define trash. Unless your EGO is maxed out, the drops will consistently outperform their lower lever equivalents on a grand scale and have multiple controllable factors (via mods and EGO board skills) on the smaller scale. That is literally the basics of a loot chaser.



Add that to the fact that "it's not about money" is patently wrong. In the blog which introduced the encryption system to players, the devs all but said that the limit to rarity upgrading was precisely because lockbox sales had dropped.


Taken out of context.

They said purchases with both in game and premium currency dropped. Yes, the investigation to why this was the case was motivated from a business stand point, but the imbalance found was one that was affecting the game across the board, not only in that aspect.



The utter problem with Defiance that any and all "chases" begin and end with RNG, and the devs team inability to add changes in the proper order - you don't add a loot chase to a game until there is loot worthy of chasing and an actual progression system that does not make said chase utterly frustrating instead of fulfilling.


The randomness is the core of the entire system. Any way to omit it renders it effectively moot, which is exactly what happened with the arkforge upgrading before it was changed. And yes, you can "load" the dice for your rolls through various premium and non premium means, but do note that even premium items do omit this completely (because you can either get rolls, not guaranteed items or arkforge for money, both regulated by pricing and in-game availability via in-game items)

There is a vertical progression system that allows you to build more effectively around the better gear you find. Your gear also gets progressively better in raw numbers as you get more EGO rating.

I fail to see how this is not a complete system, nor how is it not fulfilling and/or rewarding, it tests your skill at adjusting, maintaining proper loadouts for different enemies/challenges and over rise in general skill level. All the basics of an action RPG specific loot system are present and implemented fairly well as I have seen.



The modding and upgrading system has been the closet thing we have had to a player crafting system in the game - a very important aspect in an MMO. That has promptly been nerfed thanks to the new changes to the game.


There is no such thing as important aspects of an MMO, because MMO describes character of play, not game type. Defiance uses a system typical to classic Action RPG systems, with the hard mode instances/rewards mixed in. In a good action RPG system, crafting is used to offset bad luck streaks or offer additional rolls of the dice for the good stuff, with some games offering a long-term upgrade system for max level characters (but one that is still a secondary method of evening out streaks)



Personally speaking, I would not have even noticed the nerf to key and AF rewards had not a vertical progression system been added to the game. For me, the only chase I have been interested in was getting better at shooting things in the face with the weapons I have found to be my favorite ones to use for one reason or another. The experience of the gameplay has what has kept me playing and kept me interested in the game - not the loot, and the recent changes, starting with 1.5 has certainly done little to improve said gameplay experience, and dare it be said - has made it worse in some cases. The only thing that would interest me in a loot chase would be looking for stronger versions of those weapons as I am progressing through the game. Prior to these changes, the Matrix with the Rating and Rarity upgrades were the only way for me to get said "loot."

Ultimately, the design and vision of Defiance has changed drastically over the last 16 months. OP, you were not here at the beginning when we had a game that many, many of us veterans believed in and enjoyed playing. The changes of late have fundamentally changed this game in a way that is not appealing to many of us and certainly created a style of gameplay that we did not originally come here for. Outrage is most certainly justifiable in this case. Quite frankly, Defiance is becoming less unique in the great ocean of MMOs out there, and had we known then what we know now, many of us would have opted to invest our time in games that have done a much better job at those mechanics and designs than Defiance.


And that's all fine, except that system as it was also was tanking Defiance hard. Salvaging a failing product means you need to adapt it to systems that have worked for other products, in this case adding multiple layers to progression and make it much more distinct, along with adopting the f2p model and all it entails. Both adopted systems are much more typical to Action RPGs then MMOs, which make sense considering Defiance is much more a TPP twitch/movement/dodge based shooter gameplay wise, not an MMORPG.



Any changes to loot drops and quality are directly related to them wanting people in the bit store. It's no secret and it's also obvious.


This assumption not only omits the official information provided by devs as quoted in his thread, but also serves as a false premise that, without definite proof that it is indeed the sole motivator (and ignoring more context,) makes all further conclusions hard to argue.

Later suggestions in your post stand directly against the chase system in place, which was the issue with the arkforge upgrades in the first place, see above.



Make them hard to get, make them hard to upgrade, make them so god damn rare that you have to grind your thumbs to the bone or get really lucky, but if you do,..... make them legendary.


Goes against the idea that in typical chase systems, you can always potentially find something better. It also implies that their values would take priority over players skill in adapting their build and ability to use them effectively in game, which needs to be at least a balanced pair.

As a practical example:

I've found a total of 6 orange items in quest rewards and T4/Faciton chest drops yesterday. One of those was an orange version of a Purple gun I was already using, one was an orange shield. One I saved on the back-burner. The other two required me to change my loadouts around and adjust my playstyle, but once I did so, my ability to deal damage and total scores in the bigger events went up significantly, after an initial dip while I was getting used to how and where to use them. Had plenty of fun trying to figure out if I can actually use them better then my older gear in the process, tweaking my loadouts. Ultimately I see myself sticking with one of these weapons at the most, possibly using arkforge to keep their EGO rating up as I phase out the rest with blues/purples that are better by pure numbers should I not find more OJs as I level up.

And even if I was max EGO rating, I would still be enticed to find better mixes that let me max out my scores even higher. But it would still require build and gameplay tweaks, orange items that are drastically better in pure number values would make the second aspect way less significant and create a huge, gear based gap in damage output in case of proper build adjustment. And the core systems - gameplay, twitch shooting/positioning/dodging etc and the EGO grid and its flexibility all need to have the potential to outshine pure numbers, otherwise the game would be boring at its core.

Orange items are just a rare drop tier with higher numbers, nothing more, nothing less. Ideally, no item should trump other systems mentioned here, just like no build should be the "ultimate" build and the gameplay itself should constantly test your ability to pick targets, weapons, dodge their fire and maximize your hits on target.

DeadEye68
08-08-2014, 11:10 AM
Again, in a loot chaser, you build and adjust your build (variables you control via EGO board loadouts, mods etc) around the loot you get, not the other way around. As you level up and unlock more grids on the board, you ability to build around the higher quality loot you get rises as well.

That is, dear Sir, you personal choice. A loot chaser should allow you to chase for specific gear in order to maximize the efficiency of your favored style of play. What you describe isn't a loot chase, but compromising in order to deal with random drops.

While you're quite prompt to throw accusations about assumptions being made without having "facts" to back them up, there's absolutely no "fact" to back up your statement about your vision being the one the game is supposed to follow. Besides, I'm at a loss for words to describe what I think about the core "facts" you're using ... PR statements about changes are "facts" now ?

You're still firmly entrenched in your "Trion said so, everything else is a lie" stance.

Could we please get serious ?

Everything you write shows that you're either entirely oblivious of what endgame -read when you hit the sweet spot in damage scaling- looks like, or have no idea how it looks like. In both cases, your points are fragmentary because they focus exclusively on players still progressing and shows no concern about player retention once EGO progression has stopped.

Once you've played around for long enough, experimenting with weapons, powers and perks you're all done with tinkering. You'll have your builds set and will start hunting for weapons that will allow to make those builds more efficient. That is a chase. Not using makeshift adaptations of your builds because there's no consistency in what you're getting.

Were vertical progression a long and arduous process, then chasing loot would be less important because you would be busy for a long time just leveling. Unfortunately, while not as absurdly fast as it is in Diablo 3, progression in Defiance is extremely fast. It took me roughly 80 hours to reach 5.5K on PC NA, which is something you can achieve with two or three weeks without compiling absurd playing sessions.
If -in your opinion- allowing you to chase specific loot hurts the game, allowing it to progress that fast thus getting you stuck with no progression left except hunting for gear much too soon hurts it a lot more.

Alastar
08-08-2014, 11:17 AM
At the end of the day neither the complaints nor this analytical look matters. What matters is $$$. If sales increase because of this change that's good. For Trion at least. If sales drop that's bad. All the opinions in the world are irrelevant to the cash flow.

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:20 AM
At the end of the day neither the complaints nor this analytical look matters. What matters is $$$. If sales increase because of this change that's good. For Trion at least. If sales drop that's bad. All the opinions in the world are irrelevant to the cash flow.

By making things cheaper people will shell out loads of cash without hesitation. FREIGHTER LOADS>

Alastar
08-08-2014, 11:24 AM
Some people sure. I would. But then you've got the folks who will shell out period. Maybe it comes to pass that the revenue gained from those who shell out period surpasses that of those who shell out on condition. Personally I believe there's a happy medium to increase revenue from everyone. But I'm not pulling the strings and I don't have a business degree either.

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:29 AM
Some people sure. I would. But then you've got the folks who will shell out period. Maybe it comes to pass that the revenue gained from those who shell out period surpasses that of those who shell out on condition. Personally I believe there's a happy medium to increase revenue from everyone. But I'm not pulling the strings and I don't have a business degree either.

Unfortunately I have a medical degree so that does not equate to a business degree. I do however own a business and am currently in the mist of starting another. I'll give an example of what it seems like we have here.

1. Buy a car for $25,000 with full warranty
2. Comes with every option
3. A/C is goofy
4. Go to dealership
5. They "fix" it
6. repeat steps 3-5
7. Over a year later problems persist while following steps 3-5
8. Warranty is gone
9. Can't return car after every promise to fix it.

Alastar
08-08-2014, 11:34 AM
Oh believe me you don't have to explain it to me I'm full aware and as unhappy as most. Minus the people who flat out left. I'll still log in to do episode content. I'm just pointing out that none of this matters really. We've already told them for ages how to win their way into our wallets once more lol. Just somebody pulling the strings has a different idea. Not saying don't ***** either. By all means kick and scream and claw til the pows come home. :cool:

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:35 AM
Oh believe me you don't have to explain it to me I'm full aware and as unhappy as most. Minus the people who flat out left. I'll still log in to do episode content. I'm just pointing out that none of this matters really. We've already told them for ages how to win their way into our wallets once more lol. Just somebody pulling the strings has a different idea. Not saying don't ***** either. By all means kick and scream and claw til the pows come home. :cool:

The only puppet here is potato.

Alastar
08-08-2014, 11:37 AM
Poor potato :(

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:40 AM
Poor potato :(

It'll be a sad day when he goes to the big litter box in the sky.

ironcladtrash
08-08-2014, 11:42 AM
Define trash. Unless your EGO is maxed out, the drops will consistently outperform their lower lever equivalents on a grand scale and have multiple controllable factors (via mods and EGO board skills) on the smaller scale. That is literally the basics of a loot chaser.


I just wanted to comment on this part. The rest of your post for me is just difference of opinion and that's fine.

There are tons of stats, synergies, and masterys that literally do nothing to the gun they are applied to. Below is the links to the bonuses
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?99055-Mav-s-Guide-to-Weapon-Bonus-Rolls-and-More&highlight=mav%27s+guide
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?117443-Sin-s-Ultimate-Guide-to-Weapon-Mods&p=1107997#post1107997

There are billions of possible combinations to the guns and stats you could get. The majority of them are garbage. That's why finding a gun with all working stats is referred to as a unicorn, they almost don't exist. If you do find one it's going to be hard if not impossible to keep upgrading if you find one at lower level.

The ability for us to upgrade any weapon off set that most of the guns don't have working stats or if they do they are almost completely useless. The loot chase was and is really broken. With out encryption and at least somewhat OK arkforge rewards we could pick up decent greens and blues and make them into legendarys with working stats. Now they nerfed our arkforge gains and limited our ability to upgrade. This is what makes me and others upset.

430005
08-08-2014, 11:44 AM
Higher EGO is tied to higher DPS. It gives you the possibilty to get better nano/synergy weapons which is far more important then the legendary quality you are rambling on about.


Unless your EGO is maxed out, the drops will consistently outperform their lower lever equivalents on a grand scale and have multiple controllable factors on the smaller scale.

Wrong again. Aside from quality, encrypted or non-nano weapons, the type, synergy and stats on a weapon matter. I have deleted so many OJ's because my modded blue EMC service rifle performed better.

Once i got at a higher level EGO, I salvaged the mods, bought a higher level EGO one and put them on the rifle. Oh, don't tell me, tomorrow all hidden vendors are going to be removed from game as well?


They said purchases with both in game and premium currency dropped. Yes, the investigation to why this was the case was motivated from a business stand point, but the imbalance found was one that was affecting the game across the board, not only in that aspect.

First thing you say that actually makes sense. But again, that can also be explained with the low droprate of decent weapons from lockboxes and thus having to upgrade low quality to get lucky on stats.


The randomness is the core of the entire system. Any way to omit it renders it effectively moot, which is exactly what happened with the arkforge upgrading before it was changed.

Even with the arkforge upgrading it still required you to find that specific weapon with the right nano and synergy on a lower quality, which isnt as easy as you make it sound. That only became more difficult now.


There is a vertical progression system that allows you to build more effectively around the better gear you find.

Ugh man, if you are a player that finds a higher EGO weapon and uses that and changes his build every time he finds something, you are really not going to be effective. Situations requires a different weapons.


I fail to see how this is not a complete system, nor how is it not fulfilling and/or rewarding

Again, I explained this to you a few times now already in this thread. As said in previous posts. Again.


There is no such thing as important aspects of an MMO, because MMO describes character of play, not game type. Defiance uses a system typical to classic Action RPG systems, with the hard mode instances/rewards mixed in. In a good action RPG system, crafting is used to offset bad luck streaks or offer additional rolls of the dice for the good stuff, with some games offering a long-term upgrade system for max level characters

Haha, you make me laugh. You're still being a d0uche, but you're funny. I think he knows how the crafting system works ;) The crafting system still requires you to find the proper weapon to mod/upgrade. After the nerf the chace became a never ending bad streak.


And that's all fine, except that system as it was also was tanking Defiance hard.

There is a point that can be made for nerfing quality but nerfing rewards effectivly made the chace moot. Wheter you view Defiance as a MMORPG or a TPP does not change this has taken away the drive to play.


Goes against the idea that in typical chase systems, you can always potentially find something better.

You depend too heavily on the equality of all weapontypes and droprate of good weapons with the appropriate nano and synergy in your assumptions, quality aside. This is not the case.

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:48 AM
unless you're 5500+ the weapons don't matter too much. The closer the better but you gain ego to quickly for them to matter. Well at least you did.

OMalley
08-08-2014, 11:53 AM
Regardless of how absurd the AF reward change is, I feel awful for any low ego/new players. Every single good gun I have came from a blue or green. I am ego 5800, and have never gotten a good OJ from a drop or box... Encryption means that the vast majority of newer players will never see a good gun.

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 11:54 AM
Regardless of how absurd the AF reward change is, I feel awful for any low ego/new players. Every single good gun I have came from a blue or green. I am ego 5800, and have never gotten a good OJ from a drop or box... Encryption means that the vast majority of newer players will never see a good gun.

you on ps3 na? I can give you some guns.

Odessa
08-08-2014, 11:55 AM
I just wanted to comment on this part. The rest of your post for me is just difference of opinion and that's fine.

There are tons of stats, synergies, and masterys that literally do nothing to the gun they are applied to. Below is the links to the bonuses
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?99055-Mav-s-Guide-to-Weapon-Bonus-Rolls-and-More&highlight=mav%27s+guide
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?117443-Sin-s-Ultimate-Guide-to-Weapon-Mods&p=1107997#post1107997

There are billions of possible combinations to the guns and stats you could get. The majority of them are garbage. That's why finding a gun with all working stats is referred to as a unicorn, they almost don't exist. If you do find one it's going to be hard if not impossible to keep upgrading if you find one at lower level.

The ability for us to upgrade any weapon off set that most of the guns don't have working stats or if they do they are almost completely useless. The loot chase was and is really broken. With out encryption and at least somewhat OK arkforge rewards we could pick up decent greens and blues and make them into legendarys with working stats. Now they nerfed our arkforge gains and limited our ability to upgrade. This is what makes me and others upset.

In complete agreement with you. Compare a triple accuracy Springer to a Double Damage and Mag size. I usually get the stats that do nothing to make the weapon special, regardless of the rarity. I found what became a triple Crit VBI SMG with Radiation. It was my Monkey run weapon. I have a few weapons that shine but are so far below my current EGO it would be madness to even try to raise them. But... I have yet to find any new ones with comparable rolls to replace them. I also have a few lower level characters that have found some awesome weapons. Again... the idea of keeping them at level would mean choosing which character to grind for HOURS... and then it's only for one of the weapons. I can't imagine what it's going to be like for new people playing the game. Quick hits (people who play some, buy to upgrade/level and then give up and quit) may be great for the store, but they will cripple the community.

BJWyler
08-08-2014, 12:02 PM
This to me seems to be one of the core misunderstandings of gear chase systems I've seen around here.

Vertical and Horizontal drop systems were in place since AR. They do get progressively better - their base EGO rating increases with your own, I went into detail on that already.
And that is part of the problem. With DLC 5, gameplay elements and mechanics were implemented that many of us veterans who stuck by the game did not ask for and did not want. Yes, the EGO rating on weapons increases as your own EGO increases, however, the resultant increase in power is minimal at best. Now and always, it is the bonus rolls and synergy that make or break a weapon. As such many weapons are useless with the rolls and synergies they receive.


Again, in a loot chaser, you build and adjust your build (variables you control via EGO board loadouts, mods etc) around the loot you get, not the other way around. As you level up and unlock more grids on the board, you ability to build around the higher quality loot you get rises as well.
Again, an issue with mechanics that were not needed, wanted, or requested by many of the players I have known. The option should always be there to allow you to build your character with the perks and power you want regardless of the weapon you are using. That is part of the fun of playing a game - building your character the way you want and not the way a game forces you to.


You are not supposed to have higher chances at higher rarity items just based on your level, because your level is a measure of veterancy. The ability to maximize your results and/or take on higher difficulty challenges (higher potential rewards for high scoring in events is a representation of the former, the legendary vendors tied to expert dungeons a representation of the latter) is what should affect your chances for drops here.
I didn't say that higher chances should be based just off of character level. They most certainly should include that and include the level of the area and mobs/bosses you are fighting. They most decidedly do not with the current system in Defiance, or at least not to make it worth any amount of time to go "chasing" in the "end game" areas of the game.


Define trash. Unless your EGO is maxed out, the drops will consistently outperform their lower lever equivalents on a grand scale and have multiple controllable factors (via mods and EGO board skills) on the smaller scale. That is literally the basics of a loot chaser.
Trash is anything that is not inherently better than what I am already using. It is SOP in any RPG to have most of what you find end up being trash - as I said, not surprising, but when all but one or two high rarity weapons I end up getting are Trash compared to lower rarity weapons, then there is a problem. The issue was much worse in the first year of the game's life when there were problems with bonus rolls on weapons, but has only mildly gotten better. As others mentioned, when we get a "legendary" it should feel like a Legendary. Thus far that has been far from the case. Personally speaking, all the "Legendaries" found on vendors are Trash to me because they are not inherently better (or more fun to use) than the weapons I am using now - most of which started out as White or Green Rarity items.




Taken out of context.

They said purchases with both in game and premium currency dropped. Yes, the investigation to why this was the case was motivated from a business stand point, but the imbalance found was one that was affecting the game across the board, not only in that aspect.
Not really - that's pretty much what the blog said. The devs equated the drop of lockbox purchases (in game and out game) with the rarity upgrade. While that might possibly be a part of the cause, it is abundantly clear to anyone who has played the game for any length of time that Rarity upgrading had a minimal impact, if it truly had one at all. Most certainly the drop was caused by the various nerfs to the lockboxes in the recent past and the always present garbage RNG percentages contained thereon. Personally speaking again, I never purchased lockboxes until I was at or near max key code capacity. Any time I did purchase, everything was immediately trashed at the vendor except for the OJs, which promptly went on a mule account and have not been used, because again, utter trash in comparison to what I was using.



The randomness is the core of the entire system. Any way to omit it renders it effectively moot, which is exactly what happened with the arkforge upgrading before it was changed. And yes, you can "load" the dice for your rolls through various premium and non premium means, but do note that even premium items do omit this completely (because you can either get rolls, not guaranteed items or arkforge for money, both regulated by pricing and in-game availability via in-game items)
And randomness was still a part, and can still be a part of the system. Even with the unlimited rarity in place, you still needed to find a weapon that would be worthy of the time grinding AF to upgrade it to OJ rarity. That seems to be a point greatly overlooked in the argument here. Randomness has always been part of the system. At least with the upgrade process, we could actually begin to feel the fulfillment part of the chase was we upgrade our weapon alongside our increase in character level, and deal less with the frustration of grinding for no gain at all (a la lockbox/drop RNG).


There is a vertical progression system that allows you to build more effectively around the better gear you find. Your gear also gets progressively better in raw numbers as you get more EGO rating.
Again, minimally so. I would even dare say at least as minimal as the increase in rating via the Matrix at the upper EGO levels, though I never bothered to track the numbers.


I fail to see how this is not a complete system, nor how is it not fulfilling and/or rewarding, it tests your skill at adjusting, maintaining proper loadouts for different enemies/challenges and over rise in general skill level. All the basics of an action RPG specific loot system are present and implemented fairly well as I have seen.
It is not a complete system nor fulfilling for the myriad of reasons many of us veterans have been stating. It is not simply this latest change, but all the changes (and attitude we have received) that have been implemented over the course of the last 16 months. The most fulfilling aspect of the game for me has been the ability to use the weapons I have enjoyed using the most, with the perks I like the best, and increasing my skill as a player as a result. That was a big part of the reason I played the game so heavily up until 1.5, in which that all changed. The introduction of the Rarity upgrade system brought a little bit of that back for me and I am fortunate enough to have had the time to upgrade all my favorite (and some necessary) weapons to the point where I can take them to OJ at any time.



There is no such thing as important aspects of an MMO, because MMO describes character of play, not game type. Defiance uses a system typical to classic Action RPG systems, with the hard mode instances/rewards mixed in. In a good action RPG system, crafting is used to offset bad luck streaks or offer additional rolls of the dice for the good stuff, with some games offering a long-term upgrade system for max level characters (but one that is still a secondary method of evening out streaks)
I would most respectively disagree there. I don't believe in "MMO standards", but most certainly there are aspects of gameplay elements, designs, and mechanics that are extremely important to have in any game that is On-line and allows for the "Massively" part of MMO. Every single launch of every single MMO in the last 7 years would prove that. Most certainly, based on the overall design and direction of a game, some elements are more important to have than others from game to game, and Defiance can benefit greatly from a couple of them at this point with the changes incurred since 1.5.


And that's all fine, except that system as it was also was tanking Defiance hard.
And I think it's my turn to ask you for some proof on this statement, as you did for another poster in this thread. Anecdotally speaking, I think we can all come up with how the game has felt population-wise across all three platforms and multiple regions, and still not come out with the exact same answer.


Salvaging a failing product means you need to adapt it to systems that have worked for other products, in this case adding multiple layers to progression and make it much more distinct, along with adopting the f2p model and all it entails. Both adopted systems are much more typical to Action RPGs then MMOs, which make sense considering Defiance is much more a TPP twitch/movement/dodge based shooter gameplay wise, not an MMORPG.
Most certainly Defiance could have been, and still could be better. Many mistakes have been made in the course of its lifetime thus far which have led to the state it is in now. But again, simply doing a copy and paste of systems that have worked in other games is almost as bad of a mistake without thorough thought put into the plan. We have already been given examples of many times where Trion has not completely though through the changes they have made with the game. Heck, 1.5 was a complete fiasco and cost the game the largest number of players to date. Yet within a matter of weeks most of the changes that came with 1.5 gameplay-wise were nullified, so we are almost back to where we were beforehand. Yet those players are gone. I'm going to paraparase something I've heard bandied about the industry time and again: just because it works for one game or ten games, doesn't mean its going to work with your game. Defiance had the opportunity to be unique and to be popular because of it. They blew that opportunity and continue to blow it with each subsequent major change to the game. Beware the "WoW clone" because it's not always a good thing.

heartbreak_courier
08-08-2014, 12:39 PM
This is a great post, and I feel like the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad if someone from Trion had spelled this out for everyone. For as impressed as I've been with the community managers here, I feel like things like this should be spelled out for everyone in much greater detail. Trick's blog post was very frank, but it still didn't address the Mission Statement to many people's satisfaction -- myself included.

But that's neither here nor there.

Placing greater emphasis on the loot chase is a very good thing, in my opinion. I've been playing since around the time Defiance launched, but I would still count myself as a casual player. If the game is going to survive in the long-term, it needs to have that sense of progression. Being able to tote around my Volge Typhoon ad infinitum is a fun prospect, but it ultimately eliminates the main goal of the game. I've quit games in the past that didn't allow for any meaningful gear/loot progression. Scaling back the accessibility of lockboxes and arkforge will definitely do the job of aiming players towards actually playing the game and keeping a closer eye on drops

If that is really their Mission Statement, I support it. The prices are certainly up for debate, but I think the overall goal is sound.

But, in my opinion, if the game is going to lean more heavily on the loot chase, the game also needs to be properly structured to support it. Implementing some form of an auction house should be an absolute necessity right now. If the drop rates for legendaries are going to go up, you need to keep people interested in grinding for them. As someone who primarily plays solo, I don't think I'm going to even entertain the thought of getting anywhere near the amount of legendaries that I used to. Which is fine. I remember in WoW when getting a legendary was a massive deal, because regardless of whether or not I could use the item, I could always sell it for a decent profit. That alone was encouragement for people who were aware of the statistical futility of getting a perfect legendary for their character to stick with the grind, because there was still some benefit.

My suggestion: Get an auction house going. If there are limitations to implementing it in-game, fair enough, but there could certainly be a browser-based auction house similar to Cryptic's Neverwinter Gateway. And both arkforge and scrip could be used as the primary currencies. People will buy arkforge to buy a weapon in the auction house and upgrade them. People will buy lockboxes to obtain weapons and arkforge. There's already a decent revenue stream right there -- and it can be treated somewhat similarly to REX in RIFT or Zen in STO, etc. People would also grind to sell items for scrip, making the one mil. lockboxes much more reasonable.

The lack of a dense endgame also kinda makes this a necessity.

Basically, the arkforge system worked because people could reasonably progress for the endgame, especially since new content is definitely more infrequent and less dense than most players would like. Placing focus on the loot chase places a burden on Trion to support it, and I'm really hoping they will. Silicon Valley is a nice addition, but not sure if one of those a season is going to cut it.

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 01:15 PM
I wonder what happened to the bacon guy? You know he was a beta tester!

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 01:18 PM
I wonder what happened to the bacon guy? You know he was a beta tester!

Who????????????????

BJWyler
08-08-2014, 03:50 PM
Basically, the arkforge system worked because people could reasonably progress for the endgame, especially since new content is definitely more infrequent and less dense than most players would like. Placing focus on the loot chase places a burden on Trion to support it, and I'm really hoping they will. Silicon Valley is a nice addition, but not sure if one of those a season is going to cut it.

A very important point there. A loot chase is meaningless without engaging content to support it. A grind is still a grind, whether we are chasing a weapon drop or chasing a set amount of arkforge to increase the power of a weapon we have. Defiance's loot system has been inherently broken since launch. It wasn't as much of an issue then because the focus of the game wasn't primarily loot, but fulfilling pursuits and playing the repeatable content. It becomes a huge issue when the focus of the game becomes loot. Regardless, if the gameplay is no longer compelling, it doesn't matter how much better the loot system becomes, because the content itself is no longer worth playing.


Who????????????????

Bacon Overlord, I think. Saw a post from him not too long ago, so he's still around.

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 03:51 PM
Bacon Overlord, I think. Saw a post from him not too long ago, so he's still around.

I was being sarcastic there BJ.

DeadEye68
08-08-2014, 03:55 PM
Quite a bunch of Sarcast-O-Meters broke down lately.

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 04:12 PM
I was being sarcastic there BJ.

Meeeee toooooo!

http://members.rennlist.com/sharkskin/Smiley_Misc-SarcasmMeter.gif

Dandrielas
08-08-2014, 04:19 PM
Meeeee toooooo!

http://members.rennlist.com/sharkskin/Smiley_Misc-SarcasmMeter.gif

Why did you break it?

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 04:24 PM
Why did you break it?

Not my fault it couldn't take the strain.

DeadEye68
08-08-2014, 04:26 PM
Why did you break it?

Spontaneous capacity overflow. I swear, we did nothing your Honor. It happened all by itself.

Dandrielas
08-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Sounds like guilty a conscience to me.

Superfluous
08-08-2014, 04:58 PM
You are not supposed to have higher chances at higher rarity items just based on your level, because your level is a measure of veterancy. The ability to maximize your results and/or take on higher difficulty challenges (higher potential rewards for high scoring in events is a representation of the former, the legendary vendors tied to expert dungeons a representation of the latter) is what should affect your chances for drops here.

But they don't. I can pull an orange from showing up at the last minute and taking a couple of shots before the arkfall ends, and I can pull greens by topping the charts with more than 100k score more than the person in second place. It's completely random. And before you call BS, both of those situations have happened to me. The only real difference used to be the keycode and arkforge drops, and those are gone now.




Define trash. Unless your EGO is maxed out, the drops will consistently outperform their lower lever equivalents on a grand scale and have multiple controllable factors (via mods and EGO board skills) on the smaller scale. That is literally the basics of a loot chaser.



And what if your ego is maxed? Should we quit playing? It took me about 3 months to max mine, or close enough to max that it doesn't matter anyway. I would have hoped that the game had a little more longevity than that. What loot is left for me to chase when I can expect green loot for out-performing everyone around me?

Alastar
08-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Well you can't prove anything. The only witness stabbed himself in the back 3 times and threw himself off a bridge. Terrible tragedy.

Ruinne
08-08-2014, 05:23 PM
Well you can't prove anything. The only witness stabbed himself in the back 3 times and threw himself off a bridge. Terrible tragedy.

I jumped off a bridge once, I just re-spawned.

It was kind of anticlimactic.

silencer_pl
08-08-2014, 05:56 PM
But they don't. I can pull an orange from showing up at the last minute and taking a couple of shots before the arkfall ends, and I can pull greens by topping the charts with more than 100k score more than the person in second place. It's completely random. And before you call BS, both of those situations have happened to me. The only real difference used to be the keycode and arkforge drops, and those are gone now.

First, I meant more a slight increase in a chance for a drop. What you described would be normal functioning of the system.

Also, since I haven't been able to find any insight not how the reward system works, I specifically said should, not does. But it giving you greens for being top place is perfectly possible within the system



And what if your ego is maxed? Should we quit playing? It took me about 3 months to max mine, or close enough to max that it doesn't matter anyway. I would have hoped that the game had a little more longevity than that. What loot is left for me to chase when I can expect green loot for out-performing everyone around me?

Better synergy and modifier combos. They specifically mentioned that re-rolling both via the salvage matrix is a future plan too.

Also, ideally, new batches of enemies and/or weapons, requiring new approaches and combos should also happen on a regular basis.

Finally, unlike the general conceptions, MMOs too are a finite product. You will probably reach a point where the only enjoyment would come form the gameplay itself and if that is gone, well, thats usually when you put the game away.

jay ellis
08-08-2014, 06:08 PM
But they don't. I can pull an orange from showing up at the last minute and taking a couple of shots before the arkfall ends, and I can pull greens by topping the charts with more than 100k score more than the person in second place. It's completely random. And before you call BS, both of those situations have happened to me. The only real difference used to be the keycode and arkforge drops, and those are gone now.



And what if your ego is maxed? Should we quit playing? It took me about 3 months to max mine, or close enough to max that it doesn't matter anyway. I would have hoped that the game had a little more longevity than that. What loot is left for me to chase when I can expect green loot for out-performing everyone around me?

Here's the thing. They dont care about end game. They dont care about you getting to the point where you have everything you want. They want you to chase and SPEND until you quit. They dont care about maxed ego toons because maxed ego toons know the chase is futile and no longer produce PROFIT. They care about the new players and the new player's current chase. They want new people to chase and SPEND until they see it's futile. When the new guys rage quit they wont care, just like they dont care if you rage quit. By that time they are hoping for newer players until finally its tapped out.

DeadEye68
08-08-2014, 06:36 PM
Also, ideally, new batches of enemies and/or weapons, requiring new approaches and combos should also happen on a regular basis.

For over a year all we've ever been presented are enemies requiring one single approach ... more firepower. Using "alternative methods" to solve such situations means you're purposefully using sub-optimal methods. There are no fights requiring different methods yet, there have never been and I see no reason to believe there will ever be.

There's nothing in Defiance you can't solve with raw power. It's not elegant, it's not creative, but it's how the game works. Flexibility in gameplay is a laudable concept, but you'd better make sure the game you're offering actually encourages it before you start promoting it.

Many weapons are discarded for being trash not because of player biases. They are because you'll find no situations ingame were they don't perform significantly poorer than others.

Rebalancing loot accrual without rebalancing loot quality and tactical requirements of core gameplay is counter-productive at best. You're implementing a mechanism that isn't supported by the rest of the game. It would require to rewrite large sections of the game, and I'm not convinced the current team has the necessary resources.

About long term incentives, if not for a specific piece of gear you desire, why would you engage in "chase" without aim as you're supposed to be satisfied with whatever you're rewarded with. You don't get something you're looking for, you get something. That's not a thrilling chase, that's making do.

Both options could be kept ingame and made attractive with some work. It would allow to keep a more diverse playerbase and ultimately appeal to a wider audience. Offer a game that either offers the possibility to optimize your gear or to fine tune your builds, or any combination of both. Why should there be only one option ?

Unfortunately, there a huge problem. It would require to require large portions of the game's core gameplay redone from scratch, and therefore is very unlikely to happen.

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 06:37 PM
Well you can't prove anything. The only witness stabbed himself in the back 3 times and threw himself off a bridge. Terrible tragedy.

Yep, obvious suicide is obvious.

Lillith Valerian
08-08-2014, 06:44 PM
I wonder what happened to the bacon guy? You know he was a beta tester!

I added...someone...to my ignore list when I read that whole "I've never once seen any evidence of (insert every single problem we've all been experiencing since the beginning of the game). Clearly it's an issue on your end," which is a position even Trion has long since given up trying to cling to.

You guys feed certain creatures far too much. It's just makes them fat and happy.

Holy Bahamut3
08-08-2014, 06:47 PM
Indeed lillith... Indeed...

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 06:50 PM
I wish you could see who all has you on ignore.

Lillith Valerian
08-08-2014, 06:57 PM
I wish you could see who all has you on ignore.

Why? Because it may potentially hurt my feelings? I'd have to care first. Or are you meaning 'you' in the collective sense, as in we all should have the ability?

Your question for the latter is answered with me at least. I could never give up staring at that strange, strange looking kitten. And I'm a crazy cat lady in training.

DeadEye68
08-08-2014, 07:00 PM
Or are you meaning 'you' in the collective sense, as in we all should have the ability?

That's how I understood it.

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 07:00 PM
I wish you could see who all has you on ignore.

I check my profile once in a while. I figure at least half the visits are folks putting me on ignore so... it's a pretty big number for me.

Anyway, who could ignore Potato?

Dandrielas
08-08-2014, 07:02 PM
All of you are on ignore now! Not really, please don't beat me. :(

konstantinov
08-08-2014, 07:03 PM
Why? Because it may potentially hurt my feelings? I'd have to care first. Or are you meaning 'you' in the collective sense, as in we all should have the ability?

Your question for the latter is answered with me at least. I could never give up staring at that strange, strange looking kitten. And I'm a crazy cat lady in training.

I meant me seeing who has me ignored on the forums, sorry about that. Individually.


That's how I understood it.

Yeah I should have worded that better.


I check my profile once in a while. I figure at least half the visits are folks putting me on ignore so... it's a pretty big number for me.

Anyway, who could ignore Potato?

Lots of people that is why I wish I knew. Just for the laughs.


All of you are on ignore now! Not really, please don't beat me. :(

Oh if you don't like spoons made of balloons you're going to be mad now.

Lillith Valerian
08-08-2014, 07:08 PM
I check my profile once in a while. I figure at least half the visits are folks putting me on ignore so... it's a pretty big number for me.

Anyway, who could ignore Potato?

I don't know, I never pay attention to stuff like that. I have a clan brother who watches out for which mods seem to have an agenda with me, tho.

If that picture isn't photoshop, I have to tell you as a well-versed crazy cat lady...that head shape and eye direction strongly indicates a....special kitten. Possibly one whose family tree doesn't have any branches on it. I know, because I have one.

A special kitten, I mean. Not a branchless family tree.

Wow, that could have been awkward. I think I nailed the save.

Dandrielas
08-08-2014, 07:08 PM
I
Oh if you don't like spoons made of balloons you're going to be mad now.

Not those. Anything but those!

Alastar
08-08-2014, 07:12 PM
Yep, obvious suicide is obvious.

Obviously ;) And don't ask questions. Might hurt yourself. :cool:

ironcladtrash
08-08-2014, 07:19 PM
Lots of people that is why I wish I knew. Just for the laughs.


If you ever change your avatar from Potato you may be the first person I ever add to my ignore list.

Dandrielas
08-08-2014, 07:20 PM
If you ever change your avatar from Potato you may be the first person I ever add to my ignore list.

Aside from that one guy who kept on putting up those pictures?

ironcladtrash
08-08-2014, 07:25 PM
Aside from that one guy who kept on putting up those pictures?

Meh, while wildly inappropriate for a gaming website I was kinda curious what he was going to come up with next. Like a car wreck you just can't look away from.

Bonehead
08-08-2014, 07:27 PM
Meh, while wildly inappropriate for a gaming website I was kinda curious what he was going to come up with next. Like a car wreck you just can't look away from.

https://lygsbtd.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/car-wreck.jpg

Woozell
08-08-2014, 07:41 PM
It's fine that you don't want to read all this, but the subject does require a verbose explanation imho, it is as short as I can make it while covering all aspects as I see them.

wall of bitter text.. didn't read

BC001
08-15-2014, 03:11 AM
wall of bitter text.. didn't read

I did plow through the wall of bitter text. It was mostly about simpleminded loot chase games and how they are balanced. The thing is that despite the quote that the OP based it on Defiance is not as simple as that.

The problem with that is Defiance is not just the game; it is integrated with the TV show which gives it some elements of an MMORPG as well (though the mechanics are poor in supporting it) whether the company intended it to be that way or not. Pure loot chase games have no need for any kind of consistency or style because the backstory is trivial and often self-contradictory and the character is nothing but the justification for the parade of weapons and defenses that randomly come and go.

The TV show and the advertisements imply a deeper experience than that. Sure, a lot of people do play it as a plain vanilla loot chase or some other purely tactical game but the series gives a lot of other people ideas and they come to the game with that mental picture of what the character is about and expect to build something at least reasonably close to that style with stuff in the game. Gamers like that will buy appearance things to tweak the character if possible and get things like the DLC packs that fit with that character impression (I bought Arkbreaker and the Castithan Charge pack for that reason for example) so the character is armed right too.

Even on a tactical level the ‘pick up weapon, don’t bother to improve it, then dump it as it becomes artificially obsolete’ thing does not work well with the EGO power matrix as it is set up currently since the weapon would be obsolete long before the EGO perk mix can be unlocked to support it properly at lower to mid EGO levels.
Additionally, loot chases are usually either completely horizontal in advancement where the character does not change much and is defined entirely by the equipment mix or vertical and linear where as the character advances they move from one encounter area to the next, more difficult one. Defiance on the other hand is all pretty much homogeneous and the characters range back and forth across it freely doing pursuits and other events like incursions.

As the OP pointed out Defiance is not the game it was a short while ago. The problem is that the players are not all interested in narrowing down the game to nothing but a single type of shallow loot chase shooter from what it was before.

Strohm
08-15-2014, 04:58 AM
So much for an analytical post about anything.


Im not seeing your analytical comparison between items that can be bought in this game, and items in other F2P games...
No other F2P game i know completely halts your progression in game, and does not even give you the illusion that you can obtain sometimes by just spending more time.

Buying from the shop here isnt ''the lazy way'', its the ''only way''



Your post is ********. You dont analyze anything but the arguments you presume to be in your favor.


I have to agree wholeheartedly with Tiasmoon.

@silerncer_pl:
Its been a long time since I have seen someone so in love with themselves as silencer_pl seems to be, not only is most of his own writing based on assumptions and interpretation of Trion's published statements but he also concludes on his own assumptions and then he even takes on the most arrogant attitude by replying to other people's posts with only the word "assumption".

All in all, You only show that for you as a lower EGO player, these changes are fine because to be honest, they do not really apply to your level, the ones getting hit the hardest by these changes are the end gamers (EGO 5500+), which you totally ignore.

Trion introduced Arkforges and the corrosponding changes you can use them for, then they decide it goes against the their wishes with the game and change it.

My assumption is, many players and especially many end gamers feel they are now being penalized instead of adjusted, because there are no ways to get better loot for end gamers in Defiance after the adjustment, seeing that Trion did not revert the other adjustments they put in place for the introduction of the Arkforge features.

Droprate for better OJs are almost non exisistent and some boss fights are impossible to kill without a premade group, which the game does not support, making it impossible to get OJs from those bosses.
There is almost no way for the end gamers to progress in the game as of now.

I have no doubt that silencer_pl will now take part of my post and reply to it with many a word about how I am in the wrong, it makes no difference to me, because all I am interested in, is to get Trion to understand that End gaming is suffering.


EDIT: Missing sentence in the end.

ADStryker
08-15-2014, 08:50 AM
Loot Grinding: I've been playing Defiance for over a year. Most of my best weapons have not come from defeating enemies, but from T4 boxes. If a "loot grinder" is "supposed" to reward you for defeating big bad enemies, then this one has never worked right. Arkforge was a great way of turning promising purples and blues into the OJs that I'm NOT getting for defeating big baddies.

Good orange items: In my experience, OJs come more often from boxes than as loot drops from killing bosses, and it is often the case that an exceptional blue or purple is better than the OJ drop. OJ items are rare enough. "Good" OJ items are very rare. I do have a few nice ones that I picked up long ago and kept, because in those days weapon performance wasn't linked to EGO level -- a low-EGO weapon was just as good as a high-EGO weapon. But I have nowhere near enough arkforge to bring them up to my current EGO level. Recent changes have made that problem much worse.

Encryption: Several of my better weapons are purple, blue, or even green. Since the recent changes I might keep a purple encrypted item if the rolls are good enough. But basically this just means that now I trash any blue or lower drops that are encrypted, because I can't upgrade them to see if the purple roll is good or not.

Steering the game to more enjoyable waters: I can tell you that I was having a lot more fun BEFORE they reduced the arkforge and key payouts and added encryption. Now, not so much.

DIS
08-15-2014, 08:57 AM
None of this matters, they are in business to make money not friends. As long as people keep giving them money they will continue to do as they please. Speak with your wallet.