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View Full Version : Let's try to narrow down what the loot chase envisioned by the Dev Team looks like



DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 01:11 AM
1) Highest tier weapons should be exceedingly difficult to obtain. This doesn't apply to Legendaries alone, it also means unencrypted Epics should be exceedingly rare. This isn't an problem by itself but ... when you get one, it should have good rolls and synergy. Getting a crippled weapon due to bad rolls and useless synergies isn't a fulfillment, all you have is a very rare piece of junk. Not an incentive at all. This doesn't mean they all should be great with perfect rolls, but at least narrow down the pool RNG draws from to ensure some coherence and consistence in quality.

2) Getting an encrypted Epic, or an unencrypted Rare item already constitutes a major achievement. This isn't a problem by itself either, but here again we're facing the same problem. Incoherent rolls and synergies. Refer to 1)

3) Upgrading rarity is not supposed to be the way we obtain high tier weaponry and constitutes an achievement comparable to looting a great weapon. Question is, why even have implemented it if it's something that is supposed to happen even less than a lucky pick on rewards or loot ? Remove rarity upgrade and keep rating upgrade, rarity upgrade has no place at all in the loot chase you're aiming for. Doing so wouldn't impede arkforge consumption as it still would be necessary for rating upgrades and mastery bonus resets and other -possible- rerolling options.

4) Lockboxes aren't meant to be a source of gear, but are only here to provide a sporadic complement to loot and rewards. I'm fine with that, but then again, make sure their contents are worth the price, especially now that rewards have been cut down to 40%. See 1) and 2). One obvious improvement would be a nerf ... less consumables from lockboxes, please. Thematic lockboxes, guaranteed to contain certain weapon types would be welcome too.

5) The objective of the chase isn't to get a high tier weapon of a specific type. Getting a high tier version of any weapon is a success. Well, that's the biggest problem. Pretty much all weapons, automatics (SMGs/ARs/LMGs) excepted, are extremely situational and some, well, suck to be honest. Promoting diversity in weapon use is laudable, but is assured failure when most weapons have only limited scopes of use. Players aren't responsible for design flaws, no amount of creative perk selection will allow a weapon to perform in situations it simply isn't designed to perform.

All in all, your vision can work. Under one condition. Do something about the randomness of weapon generation. Getting a rare, but dreadful and utterly unusable weapon after a lengthy grind is a longer chase for sure, but certainly not more fulfilling.

Did I get it right, or is there still some misunderstanding about your goals ?

PS : to all raving villagers. Put away pitchforks and torches. This isn't about validation and approval. It's a matter of clarification, once we clearly and unambiguously know where Defiance is headed, we should ask ourselves : Is this a game I want to play ?

fighterpilot04
08-09-2014, 01:22 AM
although i mildy agree with what you posted, a couple of things didnt make sense to me, mostly item number four:

4) Lockboxes aren't meant to be a source of gear, but are only here to provide a sporadic complement to loot and rewards. I'm fine with that, but then again, make sure their contents are worth the price. See 1) and 2). One obvious improvement would be a nerf ... less consumables from lockboxes, please.

outside of dark matter ark falls, can you please tell me how many places in game, under normal playing circumstances, can you obtain legendary items? warmaster? im not going to get into the mess that the warmaster has turned into. but after months of playing, those are the only two places i know of to get an orange weapon. oh, wait... lock boxes.

in borderlands, any enemy could drop a legendary weapon, although it was very rare. but it was well known that certain bosses dropped certain items if you had the patience to kill them enough times, making the kills worthwhile after time. in diablo, any enemy could drop a legendary, and it was quite often. however, there were many more rolls on diablo weapons, and not every one would suit your particular build. defiance has a very minimal chance at any top tier weapon, and even the high chance you get from the dark matter monoliths granted you a new shotgun, pistol, or sniper rifle, and hardly ever the one you wanted.

every good item i ever got in game came from a trade with another player, or from a lock box.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 01:33 AM
although i mildy agree with what you posted, a couple of things didnt make sense to me, mostly item number four:

4) Lockboxes aren't meant to be a source of gear, but are only here to provide a sporadic complement to loot and rewards. I'm fine with that, but then again, make sure their contents are worth the price. See 1) and 2). One obvious improvement would be a nerf ... less consumables from lockboxes, please.

outside of dark matter ark falls, can you please tell me how many places in game, under normal playing circumstances, can you obtain legendary items? warmaster? im not going to get into the mess that the warmaster has turned into. but after months of playing, those are the only two places i know of to get an orange weapon. oh, wait... lock boxes.

Refer to points 1) and 2), please. and read the PS again.

KasperSheitup
08-09-2014, 01:45 AM
With this patch they really, really needed to clean up some of the more useless rolls and synergies (most synergies are good but the 3+4 slots are mostly useless on all) and make backpack syns more uncommon because holy **** I get a lot of those.

Of course none of this has happened and probably will not happen because free2pay...

There's no rewards for playing anymore.
I don't even look at what I pick up anymore I just sell or salvage everything, because **** it, it's probably encrypted anyway..

They want us veterans gone from the game because as it is now we're only causing trouble. They want new players that don't know how massively flawed it is (I still love the game even with it's flaws and bugs) and how it is run into the ground slowly but surely. They want people to buy stuff from the store and us veterans know better. We know it's a lottery and that the house wins in 99.9999% percent of the draws so we don't buy stuff anymore.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 01:49 AM
With this patch they really, really needed to clean up some of the more useless rolls and synergies (most synergies are good but the 3+4 slots are mostly useless on all) and make backpack syns more uncommon because holy **** I get a lot of those.

Of course none of this has happened and probably will not happen because free2pay...

RNG's way of generating weapons breaks the whole system more efficiently than anything else. Rolls improving qualities or compounding weaknesses of weapons should have a higher priority. Doesn't mean they should be an assured roll though.
And you know me ... I've been going on about backpack synergies for quite a while. None of them offers anything useful, they should be removed altogether.

fighterpilot04
08-09-2014, 01:53 AM
uh, yeah. not sure what i missed and im not attacking you with my post, i swear. i may be off base here, but what i read is that you want to see fewer high end drops, but you want to see those high end drops be superior quality. its a great concept, and i do somewhat agree.

problem one is encryption. no item drop should ever be encrypted. every drop should be able to upgrade rarity one time. purple encrypted drops are just ********. trion can have the green to orange leveling back, and i have no problem with that, but nothing should hit the ground pre-encrypted ever if your going to have an upgrade system at all.

second, i dont agree with the few and far between bad-*** drop. in diablo 3, i think i got a legendary drop on a good night about every 15-20 minutes. it never got less exciting because of the way i was building my character, and the fact that between my inventory and my storage, i couldnt keep every thing i picked up. great legendaries with lots of fire damage or frost damage did no good if i was creating a complete vampiric build. to me, the chance to get a better weapon keeps me coming back. but i would rather trash a hundred legends to get one perfect one, than wait days, or weeks, to get one that may have great rolls to you, but be nothing to my style of gameplay.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:03 AM
You're missing the point here. It's not about making suggestions. I want clarification, make sure I really understood what they want so I can be sure I'm no longer assuming.
At that point, deciding whether or not to play Defiance will be an easy choice. I just want to get rid off the incertitude. All I can say for sure is the D3 way will never come to Defiance, Legendaries will never be drops you can farm. I wouldn't call D3 an example to follow. You get showered with legendaries to the point they aren't anything special anymore. They're just your regular loot.
To me their objectives seems indeed clearer now that I've taken some time to actually read what has been posted instead of pressing it through the 'disgruntled player' filter. They're very unlikely to change their general philosophy, which leaves two options.

1) you accept it and make suggestions to improve it -within it's limits-
2) you don't accept it and act rationally. You stop playing a game that is no longer aimed at you.

Like it or not, but there a shift in demographics incoming and there's nothing we can do about it. Defiance no longer fits your taste ? Time to find greener pastures.

Kanah
08-09-2014, 02:19 AM
And you know me ... I've been going on about backpack synergies for quite a while. None of them offers anything useful, they should be removed altogether.

Maybe you've not had the pleasure of a T5-modded tachmag pulser with veteran synergy.

Fairly specific, I know... but awesome.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:25 AM
Maybe you've not had the pleasure of a T5-modded tachmag pulser with veteran synergy.

Fairly specific, I know... but awesome.

Never liked Tachmags. They eat 55% more ammo to deal the same amount of damage.

430005
08-09-2014, 02:30 AM
There's no rewards for playing anymore. I don't even look at what I pick up anymore I just sell or salvage everything, because **** it, it's probably encrypted anyway..

This. Not to mention that even if you FINALLY find a non-encrypted epic or a decent OJ (that is 90% rubbish) upgrading EGO rating for a weapon is too expensive unless you are already endgame.


Like it or not, but there a shift in demographics incoming and there's nothing we can do about it. Defiance no longer fits your taste ? Time to find greener pastures.

Ok, so this thread is about "if you don't like it, leave"? Don't need to help Trion push the vets away.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:30 AM
They want us veterans gone from the game because as it is now we're only causing trouble. They want new players that don't know how massively flawed it is (I still love the game even with it's flaws and bugs) and how it is run into the ground slowly but surely. They want people to buy stuff from the store and us veterans know better. We know it's a lottery and that the house wins in 99.9999% percent of the draws so we don't buy stuff anymore.

It's not that they want us gone, we're no longer their focus. That's pretty much not the same thing. Explains also a lot of anger, feels bad to be put on the backseat once you've been the center of attention, right ?

They don't want us gone, they're rebuilding Defiance into a game that isn't meant for us.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:31 AM
Ok, so this thread is about "if you don't like it, leave"? Don't need to help Trion push the vets away.

Man, if you're unable to grasp the idea, stop interrupting. Could we for once act like adults ?

Their plans are unambiguous, and not going in our direction. So what are we going to do ? Throw a fit and enter a "If I can't have it my way, no one will have anything" mode ? I'm a pragmatist, I partake in fights that have decent odds for victory.

This one hasn't. My point here isn't to validate or approve what they're doing. I want to illustrate that we're fighting a losing battle. No matter how much we rage, their roadmap is set.

430005
08-09-2014, 02:32 AM
They don't want us gone, they're rebuilding Defiance into a game that isn't meant for us.

It wont be for anyone if this goes through. The content ingame does not support longeviy.

Playthru is what, 1 week?

430005
08-09-2014, 02:40 AM
Man, if you're unable to grasp the idea, stop interrupting.

I can grasp the idea just fine. I just disagree with you. Everyone who doesnt agree needs to leave?


All in all, your vision can work. Under one condition.

If they want to focus on the ret@rded F2P players, theyre making 1 mistake. Those F2P players arent as ret@rded as Trion might think. They play other games too. They can compare prices, see what the content gives them.

They disrepect vets while bringing in new players that leave after a few months, moving on to the next new thing. Why? Defiance is a rollercoaster that does not have enough content to make people stay.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:41 AM
It wont be for anyone if this goes through. The content ingame does not support longeviy

Never did.

Amack
08-09-2014, 02:41 AM
Could we for once act like adults ?


http://i61.tinypic.com/f06ayv.jpg

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:43 AM
I can grasp the idea just fine. I just disagree with you. Want everyone to leave your thread who doesnt agree?

That's exactly what I meant. It's not about agreeing. You don't get the point. This is about making a state of the game assessment, to have a clear vision of what we're heading to. This isn't, and was never meant to be a suggestion thread.
They're not disrespecting us, they don't treat us like the precious treasure we fancy ourselves to be. And yes, they're catering towards a fickle audience made of game hoppers. They won't stay nearly as long as we did, and there will be some heavy revolving door action.
That's what's coming. It's up to us to decide if we want to be there or not.

Once and for all : WE WILL NOT PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING. The potential we saw in the game will never be fulfilled.

Defiance will no longer be our little exclusive club, it hurts but then again ... there are worse things in life. Treating a shift in demographics like a personal offense is ... hard to take seriously. Get your priorities fixed man.

430005
08-09-2014, 02:45 AM
Never did.

No, but that was the beautiful thing about Defiance, it had the weapons upgrade system. THAT was the interesting chase. Nobody gives a shtako about killing WM another 100x or doing 300 grid pursuits.

430005
08-09-2014, 02:46 AM
This isn't, and was never meant to be a suggestion thread.

Im not suggesting anything. I disagree on your POV that you think Trion's vision will work.

Kicking veterans in the nuts and scamming the drive-by new players isn't the way to go.

KasperSheitup
08-09-2014, 02:48 AM
It's not that they want us gone, we're no longer their focus. That's pretty much not the same thing. Explains also a lot of anger, feels bad to be put on the backseat once you've been the center of attention, right ?

They don't want us gone, they're rebuilding Defiance into a game that isn't meant for us.

Maybe they don't want us gone like I said but I'm pretty sure they would be happier if we would stop complaining so much.
My incentive to help new players is completely gone. It's not worth it anymore and it's no fun. How will new players ever learn how to play the game? It lacks a basic tutorial on almost EVERYTHING in game. The only thing that is explained is the EGO powers otherwise you have to figure out stuff yourself.

Trion should be very happy that fansites like Defiancedata exists. They should be the ones to make a site like that to help their players when their game lacks so much information but they didn't.

I'm not even angry I'm just very disappointed. I will keep playing for a few weeks I think. PhantasieTrions reply on loot gave me a bit of hope back but I'm still thinking I'm being nave and nothing much will change but I'm still clinging to that hope.

I'm going way off-topic now, so I'll stop derailing now.
I think we're pretty much on the same page or at least understand each other.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 02:55 AM
I'll be blunt, but have players become such dumbasses they can''t figure out stuff themselves without having to look up a guide ?
Mastering a game by your own effort is part of the thrill. At some point you have enough gaming experience to do so, unless you're stupid or lazy.


I think we're pretty much on the same page or at least understand each other.

Hope so, I made it clear I'm not taking sides.

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 03:02 AM
I disagree on your POV that you think Trion's vision will work.

It can and will under some conditions, but not with us. Retention isn't an issue as long as you keep the door spinning. Cash has to flow, who does pour doesn't matter.

Their main issue right now comes from their game philosophy and business model not being in sync.

AngryCaveman
08-09-2014, 05:06 AM
http://i61.tinypic.com/f06ayv.jpg
I raise you one miss Brown tattoo

RobDaCool
08-09-2014, 05:51 AM
Why do all MMO's have to be about the gear nowadays? They went from MMORPGs to MMOFashionshows

Kanah
08-09-2014, 05:58 AM
Why do all MMO's have to be about the gear nowadays? They went from MMORPGs to MMOFashionshows

I think they always were. Not fancy hats and wotnot, but definitely gear. My first MMO was Acheron's Call and I spent hour upon hour camping and grinding for specific drops. Eventually quit when I decided the "longer more fulfilling chase" was taking too long.

RobDaCool
08-09-2014, 06:02 AM
I think they always were. Not fancy hats and wotnot, but definitely gear. My first MMO was Acheron's Call and I spent hour upon hour camping and grinding for specific drops. Eventually quit when I decided the "longer more fulfilling chase" was taking too long.

My first MMO was Star Wars galaxies and I spent month grinding to be a Jedi -no gear involved really. And I gave up one of the best weapons in the game for a training saber, that just poked things lol

Ruinne
08-09-2014, 06:14 AM
The vision of the longer and more fulfilling chase.

You're EGO 5700, you've been driving down the highway for months and random bugs are splattering on your windscreen. Suddenly a really cool bug smacks on your windscreen and you've won! But when you look at the bug, it's not what you thought it was, it has the wrong legs and two are missing. This bug is great for sniping but he has boxing gloves on. (Mle synergies on a sniper rifle? **** this chase!)

You're EGO 170, you've been driving down the highway for an hour and random bugs are splattering on your windscreen. Suddenly a really cool bug smacks on your windscreen and you've won! But you have to turn the wipers on for you've many miles to go and hope another cool bug splatters in your sight-line later on. You can pay to have the bug resuscitated over and over though, but it will cost you hundreds by the time you're done.

That's not really a chase, now is it? It's just waiting for the RNG gods to smile on you, there's nothing to chase.


Now take out weapon levelling and let players modify every aspect of a gun with a huge effort and cost. TADA! Ruinne made a chase!

Kobalobasileus
08-09-2014, 11:06 AM
I feel like the praise for Borderlands' loot vs Defiance's loot is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of both.

In BL, it is impossible to use white/green rarity loot effectively because these tiers are actively gimped (plus that series has no modding mechanics). Only Unique blues, perfect purples, and a handful of gimmicky legendaries are useful at all.

In Defiance, green rarity loot is typically "good enough" to play competently, while blue seems like the sweet spot. Purple and orange are overkill for min/max-ers to play around with. Plus ALL weapons act fundamentally identical within their model type (wrt: accuracy, recoil, fire rate, etc.), so it becomes a matter of hunting specific weapon GROUPS instead of just grinding one enemy for one gun with one set of non-gimped components.

In sum: Good BL loot is loot without penalties. Good Defiance loot is loot with good bonuses.

Of course, I'm not happy about the supposed 40% cut in loot drops. That is a very Gearbox-y decision. What's next, green vendor weapons replaced with white and all items of the day (hour) no rarer than green?

Festival
08-09-2014, 11:25 AM
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/05-03/gambler-copyright4.gif

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 11:49 AM
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/05-03/gambler-copyright4.gif

Running a business ain't no philanthropy. Milking the cow is fine, but Trion should remember to feed it from time to time.


That's not really a chase, now is it? It's just waiting for the RNG gods to smile on you, there's nothing to chase.

Absolutely. People should be made aware where the game is heading, and decide whether or not they'll put up with it.

Ruinne
08-09-2014, 11:51 AM
My first MMO was Star Wars galaxies and I spent month grinding to be a Jedi -no gear involved really. And I gave up one of the best weapons in the game for a training saber, that just poked things lol

And you did it all for a piece of gear, and it was more fashion show than game with that single piece of gear.

Almost every MMO has always been about gear. The exceptions are games like Second Life.... Those are fashion shows.... Sort of....

DeadEye68
08-09-2014, 12:20 PM
Almost every MMO has always been about gear.

At some point gear chase is the only incentive you have to keep you playing. There's a limit to how many times you can do stuff over and over without incentives. No matter how fun or challenging gameplay may be, without purpose it turns into a drag.

Ruinne
08-09-2014, 01:06 PM
At some point gear chase is the only incentive you have to keep you playing. There's a limit to how many times you can do stuff over and over without incentives. No matter how fun or challenging gameplay may be, without purpose it turns into a drag.

That's why they add new content.

Whether it's crafted, raided, quested, bought, or whatever, it was all about gear of some kind or another. Whether your gear is a kick *** new rifle, or doilies for your virtual end tables it was all about gear progression of some flavour.

RobDaCool
08-09-2014, 02:14 PM
And you did it all for a piece of gear, and it was more fashion show than game with that single piece of gear.

Almost every MMO has always been about gear. The exceptions are games like Second Life.... Those are fashion shows.... Sort of....

You don't like me, do you? It's okay.

soria
08-09-2014, 02:28 PM
What about WM weapons they are now impossible to get in orange,havent been invited to one for weeks nobody bothers anymore.
EU XBOX

Ruinne
08-09-2014, 03:24 PM
You don't like me, do you? It's okay.

Well, in my defence, I kind of hate everybody.

Yet at the same time I love everybody.

I'm a complicated man.

Pandur
08-09-2014, 05:09 PM
Hmmmmm I honestly don't know I can make any rhyme or reason out of what Trion is doing about the whole loot thing.
I steel feel like were doing a diablo3 loot change in reverse and are going full out Asian grinder mode.