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Untamed1
08-14-2014, 12:46 AM
I decided to do some quick math to see what Trion thinks our time is worth based on the cost of items in the store and the rate of rewards earned in game.

First of all roadside emergencies and conflict sites are now pointless to do, as the vast majority don't even give 1 key.

The character I did the testing on is 5341 Ego, with some upper tier equipment (but not the absolute best).

Sieges - Averaged 4 keys for 15min of time.
Arkfalls/Incursions - If most of the sites are completed, averaged 7 Keys and 3 arkforge for 30min of time.

Using the store items to get the value per key/arkforge, we get:
500 AF = $20 = ~0.04 per arkforge
T4 Lockbox = $5 for 64 keys = ~0.08 per key

Then find the rate per hour:
14 keys = $1.12
6 AF = $0.25
Total = $1.37

So when maximizing my farming rate, Trion thinks it is worth ~$1.37 per hour.

To earn 500 AF it would take ~84 hours of non-stop farming, that is 42 days if I played 2hrs per day.

To earn 64keys (1 T4 lockbox) it would take 4.5 hours of farming, or ~2.5 days if I played 2hrs per day.

For anyone just starting the game I estimate these time frames will be 3-4x longer, from observing the much lower scores.

The average max prison wage in the US is $4.73 per hour. So does this mean Trion thinks we are sub-prisoner value humans with gambling addictions? :p

430005
08-14-2014, 03:46 AM
To earn 500 AF it would take ~84 hours of non-stop farming, that is 42 days if I played 2hrs per day.

To earn 64keys (1 T4 lockbox) it would take 4.5 hours of farming, or ~2.5 days if I played 2hrs per day.

Thats sad. People are just logging in for their daily contracts now, i wonder how long that will last.

430005
08-14-2014, 07:55 AM
They must be doing something right or else you wouldn't keep coming back.

What matters is if the guy is playing or, more importantly, buying stuff from the bitstore?

Kyosji
08-14-2014, 08:19 AM
I actually seem to get double what you listed, and I'm only at around 2500 ego.

430005
08-14-2014, 08:22 AM
I actually seem to get double what you listed.

Probably also took you twice as long on time invested.

Etaew
08-14-2014, 08:32 AM
I'm not sure to what degree this thread will be moderated, but for balance comparison I love having calculations performed against to in-game values like this.

Jet1337
08-14-2014, 08:40 AM
You only get 3 arkforge per major? I get between 3-11 depending on how late I get there ( mostly 8+ arkforge ). I also bought a supply crate from a vendor and got 20 arkforge from that. There are a lot of factors that get you arkforge faster than doing arkfalls. You could also do expert co-op maps and get around 10 arkforge from that.

430005
08-14-2014, 08:41 AM
There are a lot of factors that get you arkforge faster than doing arkfalls. You could also do expert co-op maps and get around 10 arkforge from that.

So tell us how long you do to get to 500 arkforge. With the upcoming arkforge on T2 and T3.
Pretty sure it's not worth the effort, not for me (and many around me) anyway.

(And I mean legit, not doing 2 min expert speedruns just to farm 10 AF.)

drackiller
08-14-2014, 08:47 AM
So tell us how long you do to get to 500 arkforge. With the upcoming arkforge on T2 and T3.
Pretty sure it's not worth the effort, not for me (and many around me) anyway.

(And I mean legit, not doing 2 min expert speedruns just to farm 10 AF.)

And not all the players can play EXPERT coops.

DEATHBRINGER210
08-14-2014, 09:25 AM
this thread is so depressing

Jet1337
08-14-2014, 09:36 AM
So tell us how long you do to get to 500 arkforge. With the upcoming arkforge on T2 and T3.
Pretty sure it's not worth the effort, not for me (and many around me) anyway.

(And I mean legit, not doing 2 min expert speedruns just to farm 10 AF.)

Legit? Oh, you mean the stupid way? Well, I don't do that. Ever hear the phrase "Work smarter, not harder"?

All you need is a bio AR and you're pretty much set for points thanks to the scaling bonus low-level players get. If the scoring system was based on damage like it used to be, I would be getting at least three times the arkforge that I'm getting now.

430005
08-14-2014, 09:38 AM
Ever hear the phrase "Work smarter, not harder"?

If you call the current grind work smarter, fine by me, I just PLAY another game alltogether.

Enjoy work, bud.

Jet1337
08-14-2014, 09:41 AM
If you call the current grind work smarter, fine by me, I just PLAY another game alltogether.

Enjoy work, bud.

I don't really play anymore. I only log in for dailies, weeklies, and pursuits when they add more.

Darien
08-14-2014, 09:42 AM
I decided to do some quick math to see what Trion thinks our time is worth based on the cost of items in the store and the rate of rewards earned in game.

First of all roadside emergencies and conflict sites are now pointless to do, as the vast majority don't even give 1 key.

The character I did the testing on is 5341 Ego, with some upper tier equipment (but not the absolute best).

Sieges - Averaged 4 keys for 15min of time.
Arkfalls/Incursions - If most of the sites are completed, averaged 7 Keys and 3 arkforge for 30min of time.

Using the store items to get the value per key/arkforge, we get:
500 AF = $20 = ~0.04 per arkforge
T4 Lockbox = $5 for 64 keys = ~0.08 per key

Then find the rate per hour:
14 keys = $1.12
6 AF = $0.25
Total = $1.37

So when maximizing my farming rate, Trion thinks it is worth ~$1.37 per hour.

To earn 500 AF it would take ~84 hours of non-stop farming, that is 42 days if I played 2hrs per day.

To earn 64keys (1 T4 lockbox) it would take 4.5 hours of farming, or ~2.5 days if I played 2hrs per day.

For anyone just starting the game I estimate these time frames will be 3-4x longer, from observing the much lower scores.

The average max prison wage in the US is $4.73 per hour. So does this mean Trion thinks we are sub-prisoner value humans with gambling addictions? :p

You are not owed a salary for playing Trion's game. You owe them money for entertaining you. That is where your whole post falls apart.

Let us go with $15/month, because that is what the MMO with the most players charges people and what Trion used to charge for Rift.

You get ~30 days of play for $15. If you played 2 hours per day, that is 60 hours. That means you would be paying the company 25 cents per day to allow you to use their servers (which use a lot of electricity and internet bandwidth), playing a game that they had to pay people to create, and that they continue paying people to patch, moderate, and provide customer service for. With Defiance, you are actually not required to pay a cent, ever.

The average max prison wage in the US is $4.73 per hour. So does this mean that you think the employees of companies who make games that you love are sub-prisoner value humans with gambling addictions?

Spend the $15 per month on some Arkforge, play the game with what you are allowed to farm (By the way, there are much better ways to farm Arkforge. You are terrible), or get lost. This asinine ******** can be spun either way. Stop making your crybaby posts.

430005
08-14-2014, 09:49 AM
You owe them money for entertaining you. That is where your whole post falls apart.

I bought this game, bought the season pass, bought boxes, shtakoton of inventory and more. What did we get in return? And what does that make me? I don't owe Tryin shtako.

Darien
08-14-2014, 09:54 AM
I bought this game, bought the season pass, bought boxes, shtakoton of inventory and more. What did we get in return? And what does that make me? I don't owe Tryin shtako.

How many hours have you put into the game?

A movie costs $10-$15 for an average of 2 hours of entertainment. You have to show up and leave when the money theater tells you to. You can only eat what they say you can. You have to be quiet and respectful. You cannot pause the movie or otherwise do things by your own schedule.

I paid $10 for Defiance and $40 for the Season pass. I can mostly play it whenever I want, however I want, unless the servers go down for some reason. I played for more than 10 hours, so I got my money's worth out of this game.

You are not entitled to infinity hours of entertainment because you dropped 10 bucks. Stop acting like you got zero value for your purchase.

TalynOne
08-14-2014, 10:04 AM
Keys are worthless because even with all that time invested you ended up with 4 blues from a lockbox 90%+ of the time. The difference with the new system is instead of being able to get 16-20 blues you end up with 4 from a day of farming. Virtually all my good loot came from old Warmaster runs, trading, monoliths and hourly vendor specials. The nerfed Arkforge drops means you'll be spending now to eternity trying to get your existing loot to match your current EGO level.

-----------

Stegosaur is the resident *** in every thread so you can safely ignore him, he throws personal insults in almost every thread I see him in.

Even in game he's a jerk, he brought in an ALT character during an expert coop run I was in and refused to pick anyone up except his AFK alt, even when one our team mate was crawling at his feet for 30+ seconds.

430005
08-14-2014, 10:07 AM
A movie costs $10-$15 for an average of 2 hours of entertainment. You have to show up and leave when the money theater tells you to.

There are enough other games I can play I am willing to invest my money in. I already spent more then $100,- on this game. If I have to spend another $20,- to $40,- on this game it will NOT be a stupid quality upgrade or social.

I rather spend that same $20,- to $40,- on games that give me MONEY VALUE. If you think Defiance is the only game in this universe you are mistaken. The current changes killed the playability and that should be leading.


What it makes you a greedy, egotistical, jerk. You are not entitled to infinity hours of entertainment because you dropped 10 bucks. Stop acting like you got zero value for your purchase.

When I bought this game it has so much bugs I just put it down for a week. It was still full with bugs when I did play. Then when i bought the Seasonpass Tryin promised a lot of things which it did not deliver on. After a long break I tried this game again, killed WM a few times and then this dramafest of nerfs started.

There are a lot of other points I can point out that made Defiance a frustrating game to play, so don't get me started, boy. I didn't get zero value, that's true, but full value? Honestly, no. And that would be OK if i enjoyed this game to the fullest. But it is becoming more and more a mistake I really don't want to play (grind).

dramaQkarri
08-14-2014, 10:16 AM
<snip>I didn't get zero value, that's true, but full value? Honestly, no.

Same here, and what really irks me is now they want MORE money from us. So basically I'll NEVER have the corporate espionage lockbox or anything else "new" cuz 2 reasons -
1) I too have a budget and need to make money so I can, like, eat.
2) I'll spend my entertainment money on things that please me, not the things that make me mad. None of those dollars are going towards Trion.

TremerChrist
08-14-2014, 11:32 AM
My patron pass expired a few days ago, would have cladly bought another. But after this latest downdate that killed AF and key drops and the effect on reload patch coming soon, I'll never spend another dime on this game. Unless they to hire a new dev team. Never seen axdev team so out of touch with its players.

SirServed
08-14-2014, 11:57 AM
what really irks me is now they want MORE money from us.
Oh really? I distinctly recall the game going free-to-play and you being able to make decisions about additions and features you'd like to purchase. They aren't forcing you to spend money. It's an option. You may not be very creative with earning in-game currencies so you always end up with spending money as a best case scenario. Spend money because you want what you're paying for or don't, just stop crying about it.

Untamed1
08-14-2014, 05:30 PM
You only get 3 arkforge per major? I get between 3-11 depending on how late I get there ( mostly 8+ arkforge ). I also bought a supply crate from a vendor and got 20 arkforge from that. There are a lot of factors that get you arkforge faster than doing arkfalls. You could also do expert co-op maps and get around 10 arkforge from that.

I can pull 400k+ scores at some of the incursions, but it requires me to play in a way that isn't very fun. Besides this is an average from a few days of playing, not peak performance. Some events are higher and others are lower, it is the average the matters.

You have to also factor the wait times for expert coop maps, unless you have a farming clan ready to do them at any moment in time.

I haven't had AF drop from a lockbox since the nerf.

430005
08-15-2014, 01:16 AM
I distinctly recall the game going free-to-play and you being able to make decisions about additions and features you'd like to purchase. They aren't forcing you to spend money.

Defiance went F2P because numbers were down. The reward changes and the other nerfs were intended to "balance" the chase for weapons and increase lockbox sales. They couldnt have been more wrong and its not the first of lame changes they implemented. Stop making excuses for poor decision making.

You want to farm 1 month to upgrade a purple to OJ, be my guest, most players don't. If you know that, it's insulting to say they aren't forcing us to spend money. That 1m lockbox is the best example.

Kyosji
08-16-2014, 08:20 PM
Well, apparently they removed my image and I guess gave me a temporary suspension I wasn't around for for "Abusive or Disparaging Language Directed at Trion or Employees". I'm sitting here staring at this image wondering how the heck this is 'Abusive or Disparaging Language'. It's all actual factual truth. Trion needs money so they needed ideas. The ideas they had was to nerf things to the point that we have to use the bit store, and gave us an overly priced lockbox. For that image stating a basic truth, they suspended me? There was nothing vulgar in it at all. This company is seriously going a bit power hungry.

SirServed
08-17-2014, 12:53 AM
Defiance went F2P because numbers were down. The reward changes and the other nerfs were intended to "balance" the chase for weapons and increase lockbox sales. They couldnt have been more wrong and its not the first of lame changes they implemented. Stop making excuses for poor decision making.

You want to farm 1 month to upgrade a purple to OJ, be my guest, most players don't. If you know that, it's insulting to say they aren't forcing us to spend money. That 1m lockbox is the best example.
1 month? You get a MINIMUM of 10 Arkforge for doing an Expert. I can speed run an Expert map in about 10-15 minutes. Let's go with 15 minutes just to be generous to your time consumption argument. 50 runs @ 15 minutes each. That's 12.5 hours worth of work to make a purple item orange. 25 hours for the groups that like to take half an hour. Not high enough to get into an Expert on your own? Pay someone or make a friend in a high place. Excuses are always convenient for those that refuse to take action. They made obtaining Legendaries an achievement instead of an entitlement, good for them.

Moving onward to a more constructive part of the conversation, the rewards for scores have been reworked on the PTS and will go live soon. Players will receive slightly better rewards (namely arkforge) for their efforts. Enjoy.

430005
08-17-2014, 01:31 AM
1 month? You get a MINIMUM of 10 Arkforge for doing an Expert. I can speed run an Expert map in about 10-15 minutes.

You still fail in your arguments. 10 Arkforge in 10-15 minutes is fine and that should be the average you should get from other events as well. They chose however to nerf the hell out of it and now its what, 1 AF in an hour?

I play for fun, not dumb grind. I am sure after this post they will nerf the co-op arkforge as well, because I am sure that's not as intended. And for the record, if you want to be real smart, you farm co-op AF in 2 minutes. Not 10-15.

SirServed
08-17-2014, 02:05 AM
And for the record, if you want to be real smart, you exploit co-op AF in 2 minutes. Not 10-15.
I fixed that for you. No thanks necessary.

430005
08-17-2014, 02:18 AM
I fixed that for you. No thanks necessary.

You know the point being made here. The reward nerfs are too excessive and are hurting the game.

SirServed
08-17-2014, 02:29 AM
Moving onward to a more constructive part of the conversation, the rewards for scores have been reworked on the PTS and will go live soon. Players will receive slightly better rewards (namely arkforge) for their efforts. Enjoy.
So we're going to pretend this didn't happen? They made changes even they feel were too drastic and are working to rectify them. Put your torches away, people.

Edit: Reward fix came in with the server restart. Enjoy.

430005
08-17-2014, 03:58 AM
They made changes even they feel were too drastic and are working to rectify them..

I'm not here to torch anyone. I'm here to play and have fun. Well, was here.
We'll see if the SLIGHTLY improved rewards is enough to change my opinion.

This isn't about a witch hunt. This is about folks not enjoying the game as it is now.
It's about Trion's attitude and way of implementing the change leaving a foul stench.

They changed the reward a bit. I'm sure nothing wouldve happend if we didn't speak up.
Which would never happen, because we all got a brain. The reward nerf was bad. Admit it.

Kanah
08-17-2014, 08:04 AM
Edit: Reward fix came in with the server restart. Enjoy.

So instead of 4 keys and 2 arkforge, I get 5 keys and 3 arkforge?

I'll keep waving my pitchfork, thank you very much.

CaptainObvious
08-17-2014, 08:17 AM
Well I think the rewards in this game are still too high.

hiban
08-17-2014, 08:25 AM
Well I think the rewards in this game are still too high.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/281TE/sheldon-sarcasm/image.png

ConcreteSnake
08-17-2014, 08:26 AM
So we're going to pretend this didn't happen? They made changes even they feel were too drastic and are working to rectify them. Put your torches away, people.

Edit: Reward fix came in with the server restart. Enjoy.

I didn't see a reward fix in the patch notes and no mention of it anywhere.

SirServed
08-17-2014, 10:25 AM
I didn't see a reward fix in the patch notes and no mention of it anywhere.
Did you see a message for the reward change when they reduced them all around?

ConcreteSnake
08-17-2014, 10:34 AM
Did you see a message for the reward change when they reduced them all around?

yes, yes I did.

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?170189-Defiance-2.2-Silicon-Valley

* To balance the accrual rate of Keycodes, we have increased the purchase cost of Keycodes on Lock Box Merchants, rebalanced the rewards gained from score in events, and updated equipment drop rates from enemies

SirServed
08-17-2014, 10:39 AM
Odd, maybe I was tired last night and seeing what appeared to be higher rewards.

FryDay
08-17-2014, 11:47 AM
I decided to do some quick math ...

So when maximizing my farming rate, Trion thinks it is worth ~$1.37 per hour.

The average max prison wage in the US is $4.73 per hour. So does this mean Trion thinks we are sub-prisoner value humans with gambling addictions? :p

You are misinterpreting the numbers:

It is not about how much is your hour of work ingame worth to Trion - but at which point they get over you pain threshold, so you rather buy arkforge from the bitshop instead of wasting your time with seriously unfun grind.

Obviously, they calculated the US prison wage, less tax and cost of living as the absolute lowest "pain threshold" for everyone.

Coyote Clive
08-17-2014, 12:38 PM
Funny. Farming arkforge under the previous system wasn't fast enough and I got around 30-50 AF on some of the events I participated in. But it was fun so I was thinking of dropping a $50 on the game to just upgrade several things and buy some stuff in the store. That's because I have no problem spending money on fun. Earning big chunks of arkforge because I am a good player and have worked at building a good combo is fun.

Dropping money to enhance the rate of AF accumulation was an option. But since the reward nerf the game's a ghost town and there's no reason to upgrade stuff since upgrading it doesn't enhance your chances at earning keys/arkforge.

Kanah
08-17-2014, 04:37 PM
Funny. Farming arkforge under the previous system wasn't fast enough and I got around 30-50 AF on some of the events I participated in. But it was fun so I was thinking of dropping a $50 on the game to just upgrade several things and buy some stuff in the store. That's because I have no problem spending money on fun. Earning big chunks of arkforge because I am a good player and have worked at building a good combo is fun.

Dropping money to enhance the rate of AF accumulation was an option. But since the reward nerf the game's a ghost town and there's no reason to upgrade stuff since upgrading it doesn't enhance your chances at earning keys/arkforge.


What was it that Trick said in last Friday's livestream, something about the flow of loot and economic insanity.

It brings to mind a famous quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

That being, nerfing the game over and over in the expectation that we'll pay more for it.

Syrinx
08-17-2014, 04:56 PM
Not noticed any increase in currency (arkforge and key codes) since last restart and seen no notes regarding changes for it (may of missed it I will admit but not able to easily see any notes).

Didn't they mention something about it on the Friday Livestream about it coming on Tuesday though? or was that something else and I have my wires crossed?

Untamed1
08-17-2014, 07:34 PM
You are misinterpreting the numbers:

It is not about how much is your hour of work ingame worth to Trion - but at which point they get over you pain threshold, so you rather buy arkforge from the bitshop instead of wasting your time with seriously unfun grind.

Obviously, they calculated the US prison wage, less tax and cost of living as the absolute lowest "pain threshold" for everyone.

Well the prisoner reference wasn't serious and yes I know this isn't a wage, It is about the value of time. The point is that the rate of rewards is so low you could do just about anything to earn some money (even begging on the street) then buy the lockboxes and arkforge from the store. Then of course you are no longer playing the game and may decide to spend money elsewhere.

I tested some extreme farming a few days ago. Killed 4075 enemies at a conflict site over 4.5 hours. Total score was 1,021,203. Keys earned 42, AF earned 38.

9.3 keys/hr = $0.74
8.4 AF/hr = $0.34
Rate = $1.08 per hour

It is pretty obvious the only way to earn more is to play with people for the teamwork bonus.

There should be a buff coming up according to the recent live stream. I'll do more testing then.

Ruinne
08-17-2014, 08:03 PM
By making our time in game worthless it makes the bit store more attractive. It's another case of creating value in one place by depreciating the value of everything else.

I've said this before, it's like winning a beauty pageant by mutilating all of the other contestants.

Now that your time in game is worth very little, the apparent value of the lock boxes increases. Laying waste to the reward system was a short cut to increasing demand for the bit store, a very lazy short cut.

Those that can't create, destroy.

Coyote Clive
08-17-2014, 10:53 PM
By making our time in game worthless it makes the bit store more attractive. It's another case of creating value in one place by depreciating the value of everything else.

I've said this before, it's like winning a beauty pageant by mutilating all of the other contestants.

Now that your time in game is worth very little, the apparent value of the lock boxes increases. Laying waste to the reward system was a short cut to increasing demand for the bit store, a very lazy short cut.

Those that can't create, destroy.

Well said. I kept calling it the low road approach to the business. It's easier then actually making something. I like how they nerfed it at the moment they introduced Silicon Valley. Like we'd be so enamored of the new land mass (It does look nice) that we'd be more forgiving about them making the game 85% less fun to grind at. I think they forget that we've done those same missions hundreds of times by now. They are boring. And now that they earn almost no arkforge they aren't worth wasting your time. I just go in and get the cores and then screw around. No way I am doing the dailies any more. No point.

Bentu
08-17-2014, 11:06 PM
I copied and pasted this from another thread I had replied in. Any ideas on a monetary value of a fully modded oj?


What is the value of rarity though, time over effort?*

I say this because we have the ability to purchase ojs from the Chimera/Paradise vendors if your 5k that is.
Now to get that weapon you need to do 2 weeks worth of expert co ops. 2 weekly and 14 dailies = 20 cores (the purchase price).
Then you need to mod it and if you're going to put ojs on it you need to do a further 4 weeks co ops to fully mod it with ojs.
Now without glitching the co ops it takes roughly 20 minutes. Multiply that by the days and that gives you the worth of an oj.
48 20 = 960 minutes.*
That is 16 hours of game play for a guaranteed fully modded oj of your choice.*
I'm not going to try and work out what time you have to put in to get 64 keys to buy a T 4 lock box with the "chance" of getting an oj but i know the route I prefer.*
If my math is flawed I'm sure someone will tell me*

430005
08-18-2014, 03:58 AM
What is the value of rarity though, time over effort?*

What's your point? It takes 6 weeks to get a weapon through the Paradise vendor so it should be like that for other OJ's as well? Aside from it'll take you a lot longer in the current situation to get a fully modded decent OJ through game events or lockboxes, the reward nerf also makes upgrading or modding less interesting because it's just easier to use a high EGO encrypted blue/purple then.