PDA

View Full Version : Armor Plates in PvP



Nefarious
09-15-2014, 04:03 PM
In PvE when a player extracts/dies they don't come back with full armor plates. But in PvP having 2-3 Armor plates is a constant thing since whenever anyone dies they come back with full plates again. That shouldn't be for a few reasons.

This leaves Radiation and then Bio being the only nano types worth using since everyone at any giving time has a 20/30% damage reduction. Fire and Shock nano weapons really cant put a worth while dent in other players considering the damage reduction they take against HP and Shields on top of that which the Armor plates cause on top of whatever defensive perks. The same with No-Nano and Syphon as well.

But what if Players didn't respawn with full Armor plates every time? I think nothing but good would come out of it.

Armor Repair stim would get some use and would be on par with Power and Health stims.

Radiation/Bio will not be the default nanos to use since not everyone will be running around with Armor plates all the time. The other Nano types would have more of a effective use.

Players would have a wider selection of weapons to choose from not limited to Rad/Bio weapons. (Not everyone has good weapons tailored for PvP. Its not as easy as "use it to", not many players have powerful radiation weapons that can nullify such a constant advantage.)

New/Casual players who don't have Legendary shields would not be as constantly handicapped compared to those who do since OJ shield bearers would have to balance out their choice of using Armor Repair stims vs using the other stim types. It would be a more balanced 'advantage of options' then a outright advantage of better gear.

Snib
09-15-2014, 04:52 PM
When you respawn in PVE you've got a free armor repair station next to you.

When you respawn in a PVP instance you do it with the single loadout you selected for that life, and that includes the stims. You would not be able to use armor repair stims because nobody in their right mind would use that for PVP as their only stim even in your scenario.

In other words, it's a terrible idea.

Also the use of electrical nano in PVP is to disable the enemy's HUD as well as their ability to aim, making PVP the one place where using electrical nano actually makes sense.

If, for some obscure reason, you weren't using a one-hit-kill weapon like everybody else, then taking an electrical nano weapon to blast off the shields and then taking that fire weapon to finish them off would actually be ideal. But, again, why go to such lengths when you can just one-shot them regardless of nano...

Nefarious
09-15-2014, 05:21 PM
Ideally these '1 shot kill' weapons that are so easy to hit with will be eventually fixed. Cant base the idea of balancing things with the idea that the unbalance things stay unbalanced.

And you don't always respawn with a repair station next to you as it depends where you spawn. Not the case for Instance Co-op maps either. But that's besides the point.

I don't see what would be so bad if players didn't respawn with full armor plates as they have the choice to use Armor Repair stim, that's what its made for and yet it gets no use. I think this would help a lot of players to be able to hold their own better as many players dont have a OJ shield with 3 armor plates or top of the line Rad Weapons to deal with such a thing. Let alone players who don't have Ark Tech Revolution to benefit from those Nano based perks, No Nano weapons should be a better as well.

Z0mb13
09-15-2014, 05:58 PM
I've thought about this as well, it's a convenience for sure, but it might definitely add a bit of flavor if one had to choose between heal stims (short recovery for a cap point secure) or armor repair (damage reduction over a longer term). Honestly I cannot remember the last time anyone hit me with any bio effect (that was not a grenade) and radiation is going to come mostly from the sniper corps (and they are everywhere!), so I don't really know how many folks would change their loadouts (I wouldn't I don't count on either). But it definitely makes for more interesting choices.

As for one shot weapons, the only way you'll "fix" them (and not ruin them in one aspect or another) is as you've said, and many others, is for PVP to have it's own statistics table or scaling, I don't think this will ever be high on the to do list.

Z0mb13
09-15-2014, 05:59 PM
But until then keep your head low!!!!

Chump Norris
09-15-2014, 06:23 PM
I don't like the idea because it would make more weapons "overpowered" in the eyes of PvP players. The "overpowered" weapons people use right now would be even more "overpowered" than they already are. The nerf threads pop up asking to ruin weapons in PvE...no thanks.

WanWhiteWolf
09-16-2014, 12:11 AM
If you want to fix a good part of the pvp unbalances.... Just nerf the incomming damage 4 times ( or boost the hp/shield 4 times). This way all the one shoot weapons will become 2-3 shoots; electriclal will become usefull considering the shield size.Probably head shoots will charged bolter would still be 1-shoot but I think that's acceptable.

And ofc... Fix the shield exploit. Otherwise half pf the current players will become invincible.

Snib
09-16-2014, 02:45 AM
Ideally these '1 shot kill' weapons that are so easy to hit with will be eventually fixed. Cant base the idea of balancing things with the idea that the unbalance things stay unbalanced.

...

I don't see what would be so bad if players didn't respawn with full armor plates as they have the choice to use Armor Repair stim, that's what its made for and yet it gets no use. I think this would help a lot of players to be able to hold their own better as many players dont have a OJ shield with 3 armor plates or top of the line Rad Weapons to deal with such a thing. Let alone players who don't have Ark Tech Revolution to benefit from those Nano based perks, No Nano weapons should be a better as well.

In some distant future that none of us will ever live to see they might take the one-shot out of PVP, but until then the game is the way it is.

My PVP loadout was all blue with green mods, no DLC, yet I never cared about armor. Everybody can get rad nano at the mod shop, so I had rad on my surge bolter and rad on my fragger and everything was peachy. Hit the OJ'ed 5.9k guys first and they'd die, get hit first and I'd die. No difference. And the low ego guys and infector users would just tickle me, anyway, with heal stims & cloak for instant shield recharge plus a defensive spike you can tank a group of them all day. No way I'd ever have switched to an armor repair stim, it's simply not relevant.

While in the smaller deathmatch maps I did use bio nano, it was not against the armor, it was just for crowd control to make the blurring big boomer guys unable to kite me - a sludge launcher to the face makes those guys die to their own explosions, in case of need finish them off with a shotgun.

Anyway, I'm done with my PVP pursuits (except the 100 duels that I'll never be bored enough to sit through) so I could not care less what you do, but if you want to fix PVP properly then it's not going to be on the incorrect premises that players don't have access to rad weapons (everybody does from the mod shop) or that OJ'ed players would be forced to use armor repair stims (nobody would).

ironcladtrash
09-16-2014, 05:39 AM
When you respawn in PVE you've got a free armor repair station next to you.

When you respawn in a PVP instance you do it with the single loadout you selected for that life, and that includes the stims. You would not be able to use armor repair stims because nobody in their right mind would use that for PVP as their only stim even in your scenario.

In other words, it's a terrible idea.

Also the use of electrical nano in PVP is to disable the enemy's HUD as well as their ability to aim, making PVP the one place where using electrical nano actually makes sense.

If, for some obscure reason, you weren't using a one-hit-kill weapon like everybody else, then taking an electrical nano weapon to blast off the shields and then taking that fire weapon to finish them off would actually be ideal. But, again, why go to such lengths when you can just one-shot them regardless of nano...

Agreed. It's a terrible idea. If they added armor repair stations it might be different. Besides there are plenty of times I don't always have my full armor plates and occasionally I have used the armor repair stim. Only if you die a lot do you always have full armor.

Kanah
09-16-2014, 05:41 AM
It's an idea that is awesome only in its magnitude of awfulness. Quite ridiculous too. Really truly nonsensical. Or in other words, rubbish.

DEATHBRINGER210
09-16-2014, 07:02 AM
i say get rid of plates

Snowclan
09-16-2014, 08:06 AM
Do you really think it would improve PvP to get rid of that base 30% damage reduction? It seems to me all that would do is make one-shot kills easier to get.

Nefarious
09-16-2014, 01:58 PM
Do you really think it would improve PvP to get rid of that base 30% damage reduction? It seems to me all that would do is make one-shot kills easier to get.

If players want they can opt to use Armor Repair stim then. Not saying that would stop the current fast output of power shots from such things like a Slugger or Surge Bolter though. But the point is to have a better conflict of choice between players. Its Rock Paper Scissors but in perspective some players only have the option to use Rock to while others have both Paper and Scissors at a giving time.

If everyone wants to play it safe and use Armor Repair thats fine because that's the choice of options at work. And if the general census is that more often then not players are choosing to use Armor Repair to maintain Armor Plates then Rad will naturally be the nano aimed to be used by most players to counter that and it will play out how it currently is now. But that will just be how it will turn out based on the choice of the player base not the game forcing players to use particular things because its weighs to be the best.

This would certainly not even things out as better gear will still be better gear but it will give some leeway to players who don't have the best stuff and I don't see a problem with that. Players who have 1-2 armor plate shields and a non Rad Weapon are basically worthless and have no role on the battle field whatsoever, there is never a time them using a other nano type will be able to shine, never a wild card, never a game changer. Its either you specialize in what PvP demands to deal with Armor plates or you don't and get thrashed.

Snib
09-16-2014, 02:24 PM
Players who have 1-2 armor plate shields and a non Rad Weapon are basically worthless and have no role on the battle field whatsoever, there is never a time them using a other nano type will be able to shine, never a wild card, never a game changer. Its either you specialize in what PvP demands to deal with Armor plates or you don't and get thrashed.

So 10% less armor makes you worthless? Are you high?

There are a lot of things that are unbalanced in PVP, but that 10% difference is all but irrelevant with the amount of damage getting thrown out.

Nefarious
09-16-2014, 02:43 PM
If its not such a big difference then whats the big deal if players didn't respawn with full armor plates every time? Whats the big deal with giving use to Armor Repair stim? It would only help players who are not rocking 3 Armor plate Oj shields. Its not something that would make a huge difference but its something that could help.

Bio would have a better use as well since it would destroy armor plates causing players to repair or not and be susceptible to Shock and Fire later down the line.

DEATHBRINGER210
09-16-2014, 04:01 PM
plates dont matter , with a canker

Snib
09-16-2014, 04:34 PM
If its not such a big difference then whats the big deal if players didn't respawn with full armor plates every time? Whats the big deal with giving use to Armor Repair stim? It would only help players who are not rocking 3 Armor plate Oj shields. Its not something that would make a huge difference but its something that could help.

I never said it was a big deal, I just said the approach makes little sense in view of the mechanics. Following through with your line of thinking you'd have to remove ammo crates and the free ammo refill when players respawn as well because players could just use ammo spikes after all.

And no, your idea would not help players struggling now, if anything it would just make it worse for them. For me it doesn't matter if I have my 2 plates or none at all, I have the EGO, the experience and the perks to survive in PVP. But for the guy who keeps dying it might just make a difference, even if only a psychological one. They'll get frustrated even faster because every time they respawn without their armor (and in your scenario of them being so clueless that they cannot get rad nano they certainly won't strip any plate off the hypothetical OJ shielded opposition).

And using an armor repair stim over a heal stim always puts you at a disadvantage because a heal stim mitigates much more damage (plus the first canker user you encounter will kill you if you don't have a heal stim).

Snowclan
09-16-2014, 04:40 PM
Judging by the responses in this thread to the idea of using armor repair stims, I would say that 30% damage reduction really isn't enough to make it worth giving up the other stims. Having plates stay broken would not change how people play. It would not change the weapons they use, the nanos they prefer, or really anything except that it would make it 30% easier to one-shot people.

The original post suggested that the change would add more choices and make PvP more interesting, but I do not believe it would do so. All it would do as near as I can tell is make PvP less fun for everyone. I could make a good case for having plates take no damage at all, letting people keep their damage reduction at all times would make the fights last a little longer.

DEATHBRINGER210
09-16-2014, 04:52 PM
my plates are gone after i kill my first player , plates dont matter against a sniper

Nefarious
09-16-2014, 04:55 PM
plates dont matter , with a canker

There should be a Perk to add defense against Infectors.


Judging by the responses in this thread to the idea of using armor repair stims, I would say that 30% damage reduction really isn't enough to make it worth giving up the other stims. Having plates stay broken would not change how people play. It would not change the weapons they use, the nanos they prefer, or really anything except that it would make it 30% easier to one-shot people.

The original post suggested that the change would add more choices and make PvP more interesting, but I do not believe it would do so. All it would do as near as I can tell is make PvP less fun for everyone. I could make a good case for having plates take no damage at all, letting people keep their damage reduction at all times would make the fights last a little longer.

If players were choosing in not repairing their Armor Plates and it showed that such a choice among players was a consistent then I would defiantly drop using Radiation and switch to Shock. Which indeed would be powerful until a player decides to use Armor Repair stim to shut that down, but if they do use Armor Repair stim it would be at the cost of not using one of the others and that's what Im getting at.

Nefarious
10-08-2014, 05:18 PM
So Im going to update this as since then Ive been using Preparedness (which is getting changed) to see how comboing nanos would work with using 2 Blast Rifle types and alternating between them with Preparedness keeping each one fully loaded as I do it. One being the Empousa which is Shock nano and the other being Radiation. Doing so to see how it is to knock a players shields down first with the Shock nano then switching to finish them off with the Rad. And I been doing this everywhere in every situation in PvP to see how beneficial this is considering that Shock and Fire nano alone work so extreme in what they do they lack against HP/Shield dmg respectively and need benefits from others. And after all this playing against good and bad players I can say it is not worth the time to use Shock to knock down shields then switch out to focus on HP. You are over all better off to just sticking to Radiation with 1 weapon type and working the player down with that.

Its counter productive. Nearly everyone uses Escape Artist and runs a mile away the moment their shield breaks so to take the time to use Shock first then having to switch out to another weapon that player is already moved on or shooting at you all while you have to realign your aim with your new equipped weapon and you end up being dead. And if its against players who are not so good and you can get away with working their shields down first with Shock then able to swap out to hit their HP, which is cool and fun and different but you would be able to kill them faster all the same while just sticking to using Radiation in the first place.

Now why Shock and Rad, and not Shock and Fire? Because Rad is over all the best situationally and the other nanos don't come close. Bio is a unwanted 2nd and only used if players are known to stack Lead Lined and a Shield with Rad resistance, which makes you pretty much forced to use a lesser choice but better then the 1st because of it. Fire and Shock combo is disadvantages in needed to switch back and fourth in a juggle between the 2 against multiple assailants at once and its just not worth it. It seemed better to use Shock as a supplement to Radiation and even then it didn't turn out that good as focusing on Rad by itself shown to be better. Now don't get me wrong, Shock is best used as a support weapon because you can be knocking everyone shields down but it hits a dead end there. Fire sucks and has no place anywhere in PvP. Syphon takes enough of a dmg hit let alone getting put down even more from Armor Plates. Bio is a poor mans version of Radiation. No-Nano gains nothing. And Radiation is the king.

And even so against PvE enemies. It just seems that to kill HP based enemies such as Mutants or Raiders, or shield based such as 99ers that using Fire or Shock to thwart either one is not really worth doing since that you can get just as good results to just sticking to using Radiation on them.

So pertaining to the topic of Preparedness and its main use for something like this with switching back and forth between weapon nano types to gain some kind of edge is not a big deal and the Preparedness 'fix' doesn't really take away anything because what it offered in which seemed to be the best approach when using it isn't worth doing. Which suck because it would of been pretty cool if it was.