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View Full Version : How many times has Trion devalued our items?



Chump Norris
10-09-2014, 07:42 PM
I was talking to another long time players and we were looking back at some of the other "fixes" which hurt the value of our items.

So far I have..

Pre Patch Weapons vs Post Patch Weapons: This was a good change but they gave us no way to add the missing roll to our pre patch weapons.

Consumable Grenades: This ruined whole collections of grenades and killed a unique system special to Defiance.

Shield Typo: This ruined the value of plain IV and V shields of each type and again killed a unique system special to Defiance.

On Reload Cooldown: This didn't ruin that value of weapons necessarily but it did make some less desirable.

The new Zagger change: Telling us months ago this would not be changed and letting us spend time/forge/scrip to acquire these only to go back on your word.


http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=198


ZAGGERS WITH 0 RELOAD TIME:

It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it. We probably should have had a minimum reload time.

Now just to make sure we waste our time and forge on Zaggers we get this!

Will upgraded rarity DLC weapons have roll their bonuses from appropriate groups?:

Yes.

The last one obviously bothers me the most because they outright lied to use.

So what else has Trion done to devalue our items?

Atticus Batman
10-09-2014, 07:45 PM
You forgot the nerf to ALL uniquely named weapons, such as Ark code weapons and pre-order gear.

Chump Norris
10-09-2014, 07:49 PM
You forgot the nerf to ALL uniquely named weapons, such as Ark code weapons and pre-order gear.

Good catch! I don't know how I missed that pointless nerf.

Atticus Batman
10-09-2014, 08:01 PM
How about the paper vehicle nerfs while we are at it? I know they aren't weapons but still a pointless nerf.

jay ellis
10-09-2014, 08:38 PM
+ Mag rolls on sawed offs (which is making a zaggerific comeback) and burst mags for bug guns, but thats old school stuff.
I still miss my 55z's and 55w's, though.
And the nerf to grenadier ruined a bunch of guns.
And the score system.
And the defiant guns.
I try to keep in mind that all the items in my inventory, even the stuff i bought with bits, belongs to trion. My copy of the game and my season pass just alow me access to the servers. Which is a privilege in a way, not really a right. Sort of like a driver's license, it feels like a god given right, but play by the rules or lose your privileges.
On the other hand I do have the right to decide how i spend my money.

Psycroww
10-09-2014, 08:50 PM
You forgot 2 other important things that aren't considered items. But these are 2 major issues.

Adding in the encryption system making every single white, green and blue drop irrelevant. What is the point for me to pick up this weapon knowing I can't maximize it to its full potential. It means there is no fun in achieving any weapon under purple, it makes arkforge that much more useless, because why would I upgrade it just for it to get encrypted. The whole fun in weapon drops is you aren't going to know what you get, and you take a chance on rng to upgrade it and see what rolls you get, not predetermined rolls. If you want to see what dropped,and it is white green or blue then you say; oh it's not purple? Pfft. Next drop. Please be purple

Making keys now cost a high amount of scrip, when before it used to be ark salvage. So what's the point of ark salvage? Adding mod slots? Wow. I have 900k ark salvage and it just goes up and up and up but what do I use it on? I don't add mod slots to every single weapon. Even if I did, I will still have a large amount of arksalvage.
These aren't items, but they practically devalued their own system. You create it, then change it to something unnecessary.
How about a broken dueling system? In pvp you scale, but duels you don't? So why do I duel? What's the point? The "pursuit/contract?" Yeah cause beig 1 shot 100 times in a row seems "fun"
What about ARs and LMGS being pointless to use now? Same for bmgs, nothing can compete against a cannoneer needler? It feels like without the right rolls, all pre dlc weapons are obsolete. The only reason to use a bmg/lmg/ar is preference really. I'm not denying that some are good, but I am saying there isn't much of a point to use them because they fail in Pvp and leaderboards against high tier (dlc) weapons.

Nefarious
10-09-2014, 09:07 PM
The Zagger is one of the guns that are so good at what it does that it makes a lot of other guns undervalued in comparison. Out of the 100+ weapons the Zagger is a must have above all. It is/was a 200 round Sawed Off that charged Ego with ever shot. Jeez get over it. The thing was crazy unbalanced. And so many lesser things have cool downs so why shouldn't these huge Ego charges from reloading be any different?

If anything the Grenade change actually buffed grenades. Bio pool durations are way longer then before. Frags were nowhere close to the damage they put out as they do now. And plus now everyone has the choice to toss a grenade one after another were as before the only players who could were ones who had the right set up to do it. So for having a universal no cool down on grenades for everyone and making them way stronger its not so bad that they have been limited to a ammo pool. For what got taking away a lot more good got added.

And vehicles just used to be able to run everything over. Does anyone else remember going to Ark Falls and players driving around in mass derby circles running over and killing everything on arrival? It was horrible, you couldn't shoot anything. It got to the point were for players to score more kills then the other drivers that many would just play up to the mission where you would get the Titan truck and stop there to go around to use that since it was wider to hit more stuff and then there was Titans at every Arkfall blocking all kinds of players views.

I don't see anything bad with the these decisions that got made to be changed.

Atticus Batman
10-09-2014, 09:19 PM
The Zagger is one of the guns that are so good at what it does that it makes a lot of other guns undervalued in comparison. Out of the 100+ weapons the Zagger is a must have above all. It is/was a 200 round Sawed Off that charged Ego with ever shot. Jeez get over it. The thing was crazy unbalanced. And so many lesser things have cool downs so why shouldn't these huge Ego charges from reloading be any different?

If anything the Grenade change actually buffed grenades. Bio pool durations are way longer then before. Frags were nowhere close to the damage they put out as they do now. And plus now everyone has the choice to toss a grenade one after another were as before the only players who could were ones who had the right set up to do it. So for having a universal no cool down on grenades for everyone and making them way stronger its not so bad that they have been limited to a ammo pool. For what got taking away a lot more good got added.

And vehicles just used to be able to run everything over. Does anyone else remember going to Ark Falls and players driving around in mass derby circles running over and killing everything on arrival? It was horrible, you couldn't shoot anything. It got to the point were for players to score more kills then the other drivers that many would just play up to the mission where you would get the Titan truck and stop there to go around to use that since it was wider to hit more stuff and then there was Titans at every Arkfall blocking all kinds of players views.

I don't see anything bad with the these decisions that got made to be changed.


Good to see ya as always Nerfy! However nerfing all named weapons, like the pre-ordered ones was bad. So is nerf the vehicles, when they blow up in one hit just because you drove past an enemy to go elsewhere. Btw in case you aren't aware, it DOES make it impossible for people to get the achievement for running over other players, since it requires that the vehicle kill them, but now the vehicle explodes when it hits a person and the person just shrugs it off and shoots the stunned driver.

And perhaps you should check this post by me! :p :p :p
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?175153-Wouldn-t-it-be-more-reasonable-to-adjust-PVP-instead-of-our-weapons.-WHAT-S-NEXT&p=1625884&viewfull=1#post1625884

Nefarious
10-09-2014, 09:33 PM
Good to see ya as always Nerfy! However nerfing all named weapons, like the pre-ordered ones was bad. So is nerf the vehicles, when they blow up in one hit just because you drove past an enemy to go elsewhere. Btw in case you aren't aware, it DOES make it impossible for people to get the achievement for running over other players, since it requires that the vehicle kill them, but now the vehicle explodes when it hits a person and the person just shrugs it off and shoots the stunned driver.

And perhaps you should check this post by me! :p :p :p
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?175153-Wouldn-t-it-be-more-reasonable-to-adjust-PVP-instead-of-our-weapons.-WHAT-S-NEXT&p=1625884&viewfull=1#post1625884

All they have to do is up the collision dmg for the Cerberus and all that and Im all for it. The Cerberus is the 'Power Weapon' of the field and players should want to rush and jump in to use it. And I agree with the pre order weapons but like them many got left dusted when the new tier system for weapons was introduced. The blue ones eventually got the missing blue rolls. It would of been cool to have them be good but they served their purpose in the beginning.

Bonehead
10-09-2014, 09:55 PM
Don't think anyone mentioned the saw nerf or the original shotgun nerf that happened around the time the vehicles were nerfed. They aren't around anymore but I agree the firestorm and thundershock nerfs were poorly thought out.

But hey... It's their game after all.

I wonder why we don't have sling shots and cross bows. Seems like you would see those in the wasteland.

Ned Kelly
10-09-2014, 10:10 PM
Throw out grenade like idea and runs

"make the weapons u can use in pvp only ones you have aquired in pve as legendary as a maximum (like the encryption bonus) unmodded and everything else have a 10% penalty" No mods available and choose your weapon rolls.


*and keeps running and running

http://media.tumblr.com/71345066787ac491cd96fd05ddde04d8/tumblr_inline_mu7x8c3K0x1qzqdem.gif

Atticus Batman
10-10-2014, 02:56 AM
{SNIP}

I wonder why we don't have sling shots and cross bows. Seems like you would see those in the wasteland.


Good question I and several others gave them all kinds of bow ideas for a year before finally giving up on it!

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?36687-Compound-Bow&p=1429688&viewfull=1#post1429688

Bonehead
10-10-2014, 03:05 AM
Good question I and several others gave them all kinds of bow ideas for a year before finally giving up on it!

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?36687-Compound-Bow&p=1429688&viewfull=1#post1429688


I forgot. Not in the budget.

Atticus Batman
10-10-2014, 03:13 AM
I forgot. Not in the budget.

Not to mention all the vets that poopoo'ed on the idea saying stupid things like:
Bows aren't EVER wanted in a shooter!
We do NOT need or want more weapons!
Let Trion finish their 5 planned dlc first, then ask because those DLC will be GREAT!
Let Trion fix lag first because after they spend 2 months or so on the game, it will be almost lag free, then ask for more stuff!
Stop asking for stuff! They don't owe it to us, to listen to any of our ideas!
No "REAL" hunter would use a bow!
Even swords are more efficient than a bow!
This isn't a dumb post-apocalyptic game, where civilians and beginning mercs can't afford better gear than a bow!
You think a game company EVER actually listens to it's forumites?!

I could keep going but I am sure you get the idea. People would rather insult other people's ideas, than consider it, or give a constructive opinion on how to make it work.

Bonehead
10-10-2014, 03:16 AM
Not to mention all the vets that poopoo'ed on the idea saying stupid things like:
Bows aren't EVER wanted in a shooter!


Well the crossbows in Crysis 3 and Rage were AWESOME!

Atticus Batman
10-10-2014, 03:27 AM
Well the crossbows in Crysis 3 and Rage were AWESOME!

I loved the Crossbows in Rage!

Too bad the replay value of the game was non-existent! Oh well, I took advantage of several trade-in deals Gamestop had at the time and traded it in towards a pre-order of Me3. I ended up putting 50$ trade-in towards Me3, all from Rage. With the 30$ trade in credit that my little brother had on my account and the 40$ my little sis gave me for an early Bday pres. that year, I ended up reserving and paying off the Me3 collector's ed. and used the 80$ or so that I had to make use of a tech month special at gamestop and buy the Xbox LIVE 12 Month Gold Starter Kit (http://www.gamestop.com/xbox-360/accessories/xbox-live-gold-starter-kit/89181) for the same price as just a 12 month membership, and used the leftover money to buy a 44 oz. soda and a Deluxe burrito from the mini-mart near my house on my walk back from the Me3 midnight release. :) Of course, since the XBOne came out, they made it that price, regularly, but back then it was normally 20$ more than the 12 month membership.

Mr666
10-10-2014, 05:28 AM
If you don't like changes then don't play a shard/mmo type game because they are always changing. Also don't put all your eggs in one basket because in a game of this type change will happen and you go with the flow or you quit. One of the first nerf was to my FRC SAW but did I go on the forums and start yelling this isn't fair. No, I step back and looked at how much damage I was doing and how easy it was to solo arkfalls said ya they need to nerf my girl a little bit she is way to crazy. Also pass changes were done I believe on a number chart where as these new changes have been due to more player feedback.

Chump Norris
10-10-2014, 06:13 AM
If you don't like changes then don't play a shard/mmo type game because they are always changing. Also don't put all your eggs in one basket because in a game of this type change will happen and you go with the flow or you quit. One of the first nerf was to my FRC SAW but did I go on the forums and start yelling this isn't fair. No, I step back and looked at how much damage I was doing and how easy it was to solo arkfalls said ya they need to nerf my girl a little bit she is way to crazy. Also pass changes were done I believe on a number chart where as these new changes have been due to more player feedback.

Did you get a response from the Creative Lead saying they weren't going to nerf SAWs before they nerfed them? We were told something wouldn't be nerfed and spent forge on it and now we suffer for the lie.

Shakk
10-10-2014, 06:14 AM
If you don't like changes then don't play a shard/mmo type game because they are always changing. Also don't put all your eggs in one basket because in a game of this type change will happen and you go with the flow or you quit. One of the first nerf was to my FRC SAW but did I go on the forums and start yelling this isn't fair. No, I step back and looked at how much damage I was doing and how easy it was to solo arkfalls said ya they need to nerf my girl a little bit she is way to crazy. Also pass changes were done I believe on a number chart where as these new changes have been due to more player feedback.

This must be the first post that actually makes sense when it comes to nerfing guns. People these days dont want any kind of balance, they just wants to be more powerful. What most of them can't see is that when they got their unicorn guns they will quit because the chase is not satisfying anymore. That doesnt sound like a good game to me.

The only nerf i feel was uncalled for is grenades. Because grenades.

on the other hand when trion nerfs something they do render the leftovers useless, in most cases.
Immunizer and syphon are the first things that comes to my mind

Chump Norris
10-10-2014, 06:18 AM
This must be the first post that actually makes sense when it comes to nerfing guns. People these days dont want any kind of balance, they just wants to be more powerful. What most of them can't see is that when they got their unicorn guns they will quit because the chase is not satisfying anymore. That doesnt sound like a good game to me.

The only nerf i feel was uncalled for is grenades. Because grenades.

on the other hand when trion nerfs something they do render the leftovers useless, in most cases.
Immunizer and syphon are the first things that comes to my mind

Sorry but you must have missed the livestream that encouraged people to spend their time and forge on Zaggers.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=198

Please watch the livestream and see how they encouraged us to spend time/forge on Zaggers.

Thal
10-10-2014, 06:49 AM
I'm sorry but the fact of the matter is...we're the ones that caused the nerfs. People complaining and whining about this weapon being to powerful or that one having no reload time etc etc is taken seriously by Defiance when enough people cry about it for long enough.

BIEBERyoloSWAG
10-10-2014, 07:05 AM
How about the paper vehicle nerfs while we are at it? I know they aren't weapons but still a pointless nerf.

I kind of liked this nerf though. It was too many cars in major arkfalls just running things over and lagging the game. Especially in the big 18 Wheeler mack truck things. What i dont like though is the disappearing cars. That is the worst and was never meant to be part of the game but is now a feature that will never be fixed...or has it? Been gone to long to know

Fuzzy
10-10-2014, 07:08 AM
Sorry but you must have missed the livestream that encouraged people to spend their time and forge on Zaggers.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=198

Please watch the livestream and see how they encouraged us to spend time/forge on Zaggers.

They didn't say they were *never* going to change it. How they put it could also imply they won't change it *now*. That is a difference.
They didn't lie or haven't told the truth.
It was poorly put, I admit that. They could have been more clear on that but since they never said "We are never going to change the way the Zagger behaves", they also did, in fact, not lie.
If people take this as the reason to buy Zaggers for millions of scrip, the mods for it plus reroll it numerous times to get the reload roll, that frankly is their own fault.


I kind of liked this nerf though. It was too many cars in major arkfalls just running things over and lagging the game. Especially in the big 18 Wheeler mack truck things. What i dont like though is the disappearing cars. That is the worst and was never meant to be part of the game but is now a feature that will never be fixed...or has it? Been gone to long to know

Read the PTS Patch notes ;)


Possibly fixed the long-standing bug where your vehicle will spontaneously despawn.
Thanks to the RepoCrew who helped with this: Fuzzy, Market, Stoodakiss, Etaew, Xaat, Infinity Eagle, and Morbid Angel. You will be granted the exclusive "Repo Crew" title on your live accounts shortly after Aftermath is released! We appreciate your help!

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?175219-Defiance-Patch-2.300-Aftermath-is-now-on-PTS

ironcladtrash
10-10-2014, 07:17 AM
They didn't say they were *never* going to change it. How they put it could also imply they won't change it *now*. That is a difference.
They didn't lie or haven't told the truth.
It was poorly put, I admit that. They could have been more clear on that but since they never said "We are never going to change the way the Zagger behaves", they also did, in fact, not lie.
If people take this as the reason to buy Zaggers for millions of scrip, the mods for it plus reroll it numerous times to get the reload roll, that frankly is their own fault.


"It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it." Not sure how that is not perfectly clear to you. Then further insulting everyone who took them at their word is not endearing anyone to you. Especially when you claim they didn't lie.

Fuzzy
10-10-2014, 08:07 AM
"It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it." Not sure how that is not perfectly clear to you. Then further insulting everyone who took them at their word is not endearing anyone to you. Especially when you claim they didn't lie.

"aren't" doesn't mean "never" in my dictionary.
I am not insulting people who took them by their word. You interpreted their words. I put a lot of AF myself into getting the reload mastery on my Zagger, but I am not complaining now.
They can change their game anytime they want to.

I already said, it wasn't *perfectly* clear, but in my dictionary, "aren't" does not mean "never"

ironcladtrash
10-10-2014, 08:15 AM
"aren't" doesn't mean "never" in my dictionary.
I am not insulting people who took them by their word. You interpreted their words. I put a lot of AF myself into getting the reload mastery on my Zagger, but I am not complaining now.
They change change their game anytime they want to.

I already said, it wasn't *perfectly* clear, but in my dictionary, "aren't" does not mean "never"

You're playing BS semantics trying to stick up for Trion and you know it. It means exactly that. If you don't mind that change that is fine that is your opinion. But don't lie and have and have a holier than though attitude in stating your opinion. To clarify I didn't spend any scrip or ark forge on my Zagger but I can certainly understand why everyone else would have and would be upset about it.

I didn't like the infinite EGO regeneration that the zagger had before. If they would have fixed the reload animation on it none if this would be necessary. Now it is a double nerf on the back of the cool down timers with reload effects.

Tsort
10-10-2014, 08:21 AM
Back to the original post, the biggest power nerf/market devaluation ever was clearly DLC5. On one hand, the weapons EGO scaling had us dump a lot of previously decent guns, for lack of arkforge to keep them up to our EGO levels ; on the other, the bullet sponge effect of high health + armor on mobs made others completely obsolete (I'm looking at you, sawn-offs).

Fuzzy
10-10-2014, 08:22 AM
You're playing BS semantics trying to stick up for Trion and you know it. It means exactly that. If you don't mind that change that is fine that is your opinion. But don't lie and have and have a holier than though attitude in stating your opinion. To clarify I didn't spend any scrip or ark forge on my Zagger but I can certainly understand why everyone else would have and would be upset about it.

I didn't like the infinite EGO regeneration that the zagger had before. If they would have fixed the reload animation on it none if this would be necessary. Now it is a double nerf on the back of the cool down timers with reload effects.

Don't put words in my mouth or imply something which you do not know for sure. I am not lying. I am stating what I personally think is right.
It is their game, I think they are allowed to make changes to their game as they see fit.
They could even change their minds if they wanted to which I don't think happened here. It is my opinion. You have yours on that one, but don't state I would be lying.

Tsort
10-10-2014, 08:25 AM
(...) don't state I would be lying.

Do you mean "never (under the same circumstances) state I would be lying", or just "do not state that for now"? I'm not a native-speaker, I'm struggling.

TalynOne
10-10-2014, 08:26 AM
The Zagger is one of the guns that are so good at what it does that it makes a lot of other guns undervalued in comparison. Out of the 100+ weapons the Zagger is a must have above all. It is/was a 200 round Sawed Off that charged Ego with ever shot. Jeez get over it. The thing was crazy unbalanced. And so many lesser things have cool downs so why shouldn't these huge Ego charges from reloading be any different?

If anything the Grenade change actually buffed grenades. Bio pool durations are way longer then before. Frags were nowhere close to the damage they put out as they do now. And plus now everyone has the choice to toss a grenade one after another were as before the only players who could were ones who had the right set up to do it. So for having a universal no cool down on grenades for everyone and making them way stronger its not so bad that they have been limited to a ammo pool. For what got taking away a lot more good got added.

And vehicles just used to be able to run everything over. Does anyone else remember going to Ark Falls and players driving around in mass derby circles running over and killing everything on arrival? It was horrible, you couldn't shoot anything. It got to the point were for players to score more kills then the other drivers that many would just play up to the mission where you would get the Titan truck and stop there to go around to use that since it was wider to hit more stuff and then there was Titans at every Arkfall blocking all kinds of players views.

I don't see anything bad with the these decisions that got made to be changed.

lol. So much wrong in the post I won't even bother, as usual lol from Nerfarious. Trion have no idea how the game mechanics work, honestly I get a much higher K/D ratio with the Slugger. So when they nerf the Zagger get ready for an even more powerful weapon, once they nerf that then onto the Percise Chaos, once they nerf that, then it's on to the Big Boomer, once they nerf that, then it's on to the Canker, once they nerf that then it's going to be snipers, snipers, and more snipers.

Shakk
10-10-2014, 08:40 AM
Sorry but you must have missed the livestream that encouraged people to spend their time and iancedata.com/page.php?id=198[/url]

Please watch the livestream and see how they encouraged us to spend time/forge on Zaggers.

You are right, I did not see that stream. I do agree with you that trion did a real *****move saying it wouldnt be changed etc.

No company should lie about future plans or give out information about stuff they havet discussed. What they should have said is "we have not talked through this yet and will therefor not make any statement now but we are going to discuss what will be done"

I feel that the nerf itself was needed (Yes, I want the PvE to be harder and the PvP more balanced)

Market
10-10-2014, 09:05 AM
About this Zagger mess:

48:32 on the stream. This (It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it. We probably should have had a minimum reload time.) is not a direct quote.

This is the best I could do getting a word-for-word quote on what was actually said. Seeing the section of the stream, specifically the tone of Trick's voice for this question, made me think the whole subject was still quite up in the air... but take what you will from it. I have my opinions but won't slight anyone else for theirs.

Scapes: ... a followup on Zaggers with zero-reload time, is that intentional?
Trick: uhhh...? it's sort of an unintended side effect, but uh, we don't... really gonna take that away?... we probably should have made some sort of algorithm that made there be a minimum reload time... but ya know what? It's nice?
Cole: Screw algorithms!
Trick: Screw algorithms! Uh, I... I have no... Oh, what's this?...... (Trick gets distracted by something shiny and the discussion of the Zagger ends here)

Now. For semantics, yes, he said "we don't... really gonna take that away?" Those were indeed his words. However, if you watch and listen, nearly everything he says ends in a question. For my own take on anything they say, unless they come out directly with "this will never change", it's my opinion that it could. This section of the livestream doesn't make Trick a liar as far as I'm concerned. Bad wording? Yes, that I will agree with. He didn't directly say that it would never happen, nor did he say that it was absolutely going to change.

I will say that we need to focus on the real issue and not devolve into attacking each other for opinions. The real issue, to me anyway, is that Trick needs to choose his words better and be clear. Personally, I'd like to see the Q&A parts of the stream done without game play going on. We've seen it far too many times where a question is answered poorly because of intense distraction with the game. That shouldn't be happening. Especially when Trick's words are held under a very powerful microscope as they often are.

Z0mb13
10-10-2014, 09:18 AM
"It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it." Not sure how that is not perfectly clear to you. Then further insulting everyone who took them at their word is not endearing anyone to you. Especially when you claim they didn't lie.

Honestly (as in the case of grenades) I don't even understand why this change was needed. I rarely see anyone using Zagger's in PVE, and in PVP, I get killed far more often by snipers and sluggers and bearz OH MY!

BIEBERyoloSWAG
10-10-2014, 09:49 AM
Honestly (as in the case of grenades) I don't even understand why this change was needed. I rarely see anyone using Zagger's in PVE, and in PVP, I get killed far more often by snipers and sluggers and bearz OH MY!

I agree...plus why the heck doesn't my grenade refill after a PvP match. I should not have to go buy more at a fast travel before i can go enjoy a PvP again.

DEATHBRINGER210
10-10-2014, 10:40 AM
nerfed the mass cannon too

arekesh
10-10-2014, 11:08 AM
................

Thal
10-10-2014, 11:34 AM
Omg I actually have the mental image of a few people sitting in front of their computers pulling their hair and screaming because some virtual object in a virtual world that they do not own was changed...yes and I even find it hilarious that some other people are mad because you think you got jipped because you virtually changed your virtual object to meet your need. I am virtually laughing right now.

Atticus Batman
10-10-2014, 08:43 PM
About this Zagger mess:

48:32 on the stream. This (It's an unintended side effect, but we aren't going to change it. We probably should have had a minimum reload time.) is not a direct quote.

This is the best I could do getting a word-for-word quote on what was actually said. Seeing the section of the stream, specifically the tone of Trick's voice for this question, made me think the whole subject was still quite up in the air... but take what you will from it. I have my opinions but won't slight anyone else for theirs.

Scapes: ... a followup on Zaggers with zero-reload time, is that intentional?
Trick: uhhh...? it's sort of an unintended side effect, but uh, we don't... really gonna take that away?... we probably should have made some sort of algorithm that made there be a minimum reload time... but ya know what? It's nice?
Cole: Screw algorithms!
Trick: Screw algorithms! Uh, I... I have no... Oh, what's this?...... (Trick gets distracted by something shiny and the discussion of the Zagger ends here)

Now. For semantics, yes, he said "we don't... really gonna take that away?" Those were indeed his words. However, if you watch and listen, nearly everything he says ends in a question. For my own take on anything they say, unless they come out directly with "this will never change", it's my opinion that it could. This section of the livestream doesn't make Trick a liar as far as I'm concerned. Bad wording? Yes, that I will agree with. He didn't directly say that it would never happen, nor did he say that it was absolutely going to change.

I will say that we need to focus on the real issue and not devolve into attacking each other for opinions. The real issue, to me anyway, is that Trick needs to choose his words better and be clear. Personally, I'd like to see the Q&A parts of the stream done without game play going on. We've seen it far too many times where a question is answered poorly because of intense distraction with the game. That shouldn't be happening. Especially when Trick's words are held under a very powerful microscope as they often are.

It's simple. The small team Trick had at that time, didn't have the time or knowledge to fix it so they were not touching it. Things changed, when they finally hired more people. They actually put one person in charge of gear fixes. That one person with the small team he has, has the time to alter it now, so they are doing so.

Remember, Trick also said, there would never be DLC gear in lockboxes, but that new Gear person, put Wildcats into lockboxes for a few weeks.

Part of it is bad wording, part is Trick knew the team they had at that time didn't have the time. Another part, a bigger part, is that They hired a new guy (Rashere) and put him in charge of gear, but nobody ever told him that Trick said that stuff wouldn't happen. So Rashere, feeling it needed done, went a head and did it. It's that simple, Trick as LEAD, put Rashere in charge of gear, so he could handle the bigger issues, finally.

(Btw Market I thought your post would be the best segue into my opinion, nothing more.)

Amack
10-10-2014, 09:59 PM
Ya know, in my time playing Defiance and reading these forums I have seen the company do some rather shady things. More than once I have called foul, and I sure wasn't quiet about it. When the dust settled on certain situations I felt justified in what I had said and then there were other times that I felt perhaps I had been mistaken in my judgments.

I honestly do not believe they intended to swindle people out of anything in this situation.

Many players took it upon themselves to spend large amounts of arkforge and in some cases real life money to obtain an in-game item. Like many other things in life, which includes most things in online gaming, it was a gamble. You win some, you lose some.

I would strongly suggest to my fellow players to always consider this one question before making any choices in this online game or any other... If I do this, then the company goes out of business tomorrow, will I regret having made this choice? If the answer is yes, and you want to play it safe then don't do it. Simple.

It is easy for some people to accept responsibility for their choices, and yet it is near impossible for others. We all make mistakes, what matters is how we deal with them. The key part is that we learn from our mistakes.

I've been there, and I learned from my mistake which is why I will never spend money on something in a game unless I know for certain I will not regret it tomorrow when the company goes out of business.

Chump Norris
10-10-2014, 10:51 PM
I learned from my mistake and never again will I never trust a word Trick says. It sucks because I was ready to support the game again. I picked up Gunslinger because they put a nice Wildcat in the box so I figured lets throw them $10 for doing something nice. I am now wondering how long it will be until till they decide Wildcats and Wolfhounds need a crit mult cap..

Amack
10-10-2014, 11:14 PM
Chump, I want you to know I was not referring to you specifically, or anyone else for that matter. I do sympathize with the players who find themselves stuck in this painful lesson, as I said I have been there. I really think that this whole thing stinks and is mostly due to faults in communication on multiple levels. It could have been avoided, it should have been avoided, and I truly hope the company learns a lesson as well.

Psycroww
10-11-2014, 01:32 AM
I love how everyone arguing with the people who are upset about this miss the big picture. Trion is literally counter nerfing their past nerf. They NERFED zagger damage making it pointless to use and I swear if I see another person say they are OP, I'm going to (do nothing cause I can't but must be a keyboard warrior) and blow up. So a long time ago they nerfed the damage, and now to compensate no 0 reload, they are doing what? ADDING DAMAGE ROLLS and A EXTRA SHOT MAKING IT THE SAME DAMAGE AS BEFORE. What the **** was the point of nerfing its damage to begin with?! Oh right... Butthurts who don't have a zagger complained.

But wait that's not all, because now that every single weapon in this game will have a 1 second reload minimum, T5 and T4 mods are USLESS (reload mods) when putting them on any single weapon with 1 reload. Oh you want to complete your synergy? Why waste REAL MONEY OR TIME getting a T4 mod when you can slap a t3 mod on it and result in the same reload. Oh right, they didn't think about that.

Everyone arguing this is just arrogant and wants to argue because. No one can provide an answer saying how it's a exploit or a bug. The zagger in general was made to have 4 reload rolls, a reload synergy and a reload mod along with a mastery reload roll. THAT MEANS THE WEAPON WILL DROP BELOW ONE so how is that a exploit when it was made that way.

adrokier
10-11-2014, 01:46 AM
But hey... It's their game after all.

I wonder why we don't have sling shots and cross bows. Seems like you would see those in the wasteland.

If u buy a car and its broken (bad example) and the repair its bad u argue the same? Its the car of GM?

I spend money on that Game, sure I know the Code of Conduct, we Gamers have no rights. Support is pretty cool on me no doubt.
Its a great Game and will play it for while...

But the company want us to spend money on that Game, I do ... so they own the Game and I am a Customer, not only a guy who is playing Game which belongs to others ^^

If I pay money for mods (a lot of money) to get a Weapon work ... its not nice to nerf the weapon after ppl where farming for months and paying money to get the weapon and the mods ... sure its their game ...

I just spend holly AF to get the speed boost on that Weapon ... I bought AF for money ...

PPL saying its your fault to spend money on Trion´s Game ... but what wud happen If nobody wud spend money? Wud the Game still be alive?

I like the Jackpot -- makes others without good Weapons a bit calmer... everybody shud have a real real good funny freaky weapon!

Wud be cool to buy full synergy Mod hoard with one Synergy (like QM for Shottys) in Shop for 20Euro or Dollars, what u think how many Gamers wud buy, a lot ppl wud do and it wud be fair (from my point of view) .. instead of buying Mods for hundreds of Dollars and getting BMG and Infector mods or Melee Stocks and so on .. ppl stop buying Mod Hoards, I did stop cos its much toooo expensive...that way.

Yeah its their Game, we have only the task to buy? May be they can play their Game alone?

adrokier
10-11-2014, 02:00 AM
Sorry but you must have missed the livestream that encouraged people to spend their time and forge on Zaggers.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=198

Please watch the livestream and see how they encouraged us to spend time/forge on Zaggers.

The Stream is dated with 2nd of May! Quite a long time where ppl bought Mods and so on to get the Weapons working ... fyi .. so 5months waiting before they nerf that ...

Still a bunch of Europ Gamers didn't understand 100% whats been said at Livestreams ...

Bonehead
10-11-2014, 02:42 AM
Chump, I want you to know I was not referring to you specifically, or anyone else for that matter. I do sympathize with the players who find themselves stuck in this painful lesson, as I said I have been there. I really think that this whole thing stinks and is mostly due to faults in communication on multiple levels. It could have been avoided, it should have been avoided, and I truly hope the company learns a lesson as well.

I hope so too but it's been done so consistently over the past almost 18 months I wonder if it's a lesson anyone over there is interested in learning at all. I kind of think not at this point.
Just gotta keep in mind, it's their game to do with what they will.

Bonehead
10-11-2014, 02:53 AM
I've been there, and I learned from my mistake which is why I will never spend money on something in a game unless I know for certain I will not regret it tomorrow when the company goes out of business.

I remember a couple of times when you were fit to be tied. Me too for that matter. It's their game so... whatever. Still I can see how when you love it a certain way, (preparedness for me) and they change it for whatever poorly explained reason, it can sting a bit if you haven't given up any expectation that the game is going to stay the way you like it.
The game is evolving from what it was, into whatever the current team is making it into. They only depend on us for feedback about bugs and function, not creativity. That's the way it's been, thats the way I expect it to remain.
The thing I try to remember is that I have no way to know what is going on inside of the Defiance team's heads and they, I am still sure, are doing the best they can even if it may not look like it. Another thing to remember is they like spinning bedtime yarns a lot more than telling us the read scoop for whatever reason.

It just is what it is...

drackiller
10-11-2014, 02:57 AM
You know what? I stoped playing in a daily basis and i also didn`t renew my Patron Pass.

It`s mistakes after mistakes with this game.

Mr666
10-11-2014, 05:41 AM
That is a lie chuck before they nerf the SAW they told us about 2 or 3 times on the live stream then at least once in the blog or forums and in more case they give you about a week or more to get ready for changes that are coming. If most people would just read the blog you might learn about these things. I give you a little break that info is not centered in on spot so sometime its hard to know where to look but more of the updates are right there in your face and just take two minutes of reading.

Psycroww
10-11-2014, 08:54 AM
That is a lie chuck before they nerf the SAW they told us about 2 or 3 times on the live stream then at least once in the blog or forums and in more case they give you about a week or more to get ready for changes that are coming. If most people would just read the blog you might learn about these things. I give you a little break that info is not centered in on spot so sometime its hard to know where to look but more of the updates are right there in your face and just take two minutes of reading.
I'm not that sure which comment of chumps you are referring to, but I think it is the one where he said "the Creative Lead saying they weren't going to nerf SAWs before they nerfed them? We were told something wouldn't be nerfed and spent forge on it and now we suffer for the lie"
How is telling someone a few weeks before it happens not make it a lie? They did the same thing they are doing with the zagger to the saw except one worse thing, COUNTER NERFING A NERF. They said saws would not get nerfed. What happened? A month before, hey guys just so you know, we are nerfing it. So because they told us they are nerfing it a few eeks before it happens, it doesn't make it a lie? Hmm yeah no that's a lie.

It would also help to [reply with quote] instead of just posting a reply when referring to ones comment.

If most people wouldn't lie, this issue wouldn't even be a thing. If the devs used their brains, they'd realize this isn't a exploit and the gun was made to reach under 1 reload no matter what they say. With this "fix," it makes all t5 and t4 reload mods useless to any weapon that already has 1 second reload like say a needler or something because the minimum is one so a t3 mod will result IN THE SAME OUTCOME. I guess "most people" didn't take two minutes of their time to actually think with this stupid situation to begin with.

Hey guys, ummm nothing is supposed to uh, reach under 1 reload because we have a minimum reload time thing, but ya know, we created weapons that have 1.0 and 1.2 reloads and you can get reload synergies and mods that will put it under 1 but ya know, we won't admit that we didn't think anything through, so we are going to call it a bug and have it a day. Thanks trion, just say because grenades next time. Trust me it'll work better

Tsort
10-11-2014, 09:51 AM
(...) Thanks trion, just say because grenades next time. Trust me it'll work better
It probably would. But self-deprecating humor is not their forte either. And after all, why bother addressing the feedback from armchair arkhunters?

Psycroww
10-11-2014, 10:57 AM
It probably would. But self-deprecating humor is not their forte either. And after all, why bother addressing the feedback from armchair arkhunters?
Well obviously no company wants to undervalue themselves so of course they wont make a humorous joke about their apparent lack of understanding with their own system. I don't understand how they can refer to going under 1 reload a bug or exploit. I can understand that if it was a glitch in the system, but when you literally create a weapon or weapons and give them 1 reload to begin with, along with having multiple reload possibilities like synergy and mods along with rolls, it puts it below 1 without you really doing anything.. It means they created the gun without realizing they made it possible to contradict their own statement on "a 1 second reload minimum has always existed." To say that is just ironic because they are insulting their own intelligence.

They will never admit they were wrong, as I already shut down one dev with that example. It made him say "I wasn't around at the time to comment on their intent of the weapon" which is implying you are right but I'm not going to tell you that you are, so I am going to use reverse pyschology and attempt to deny your response in general and hope you don't realize it.

They also can't comment on a counter nerf of a nerf. You nerf the weapons damage, and now you are giving it damage because you are taking away the 0 reload. So apparently, the 0 reload isn't the issue, because if it was, you would just take off the 0 reload and let it be it. But no, they are giving it damage rolls, which completely means they are just giving in to everyone complaining about the 0 reload. Once this update happens, everyone with a zagger will understand how much more powerful the shots are in pvp, and begin to use them in PvP more. I guarantee people will whine about how OP it is because it can kill them in one shot, and if the first shot doesn't, the second will.

Every single aspect of this "fix" makes no sense. A counter nerf of a nerf, a ridiculous excuse to hide their lack of testing things before releasing them (or their lack of not thinking at all), AND making another perk useless. This fix is another failed attempt to make a group of complainers living in the past happy.

EDIT: I wouldn't be so pissed off if they just came out and said sorry we made a mistake and admitted their wrong doing, or EVEN APOLOGIZING FOR FLAT OUT LYING, they didn't comment on any of that either. Oh we lied but sorry not sorry? ON top of all of this, they aren't doing anything to the people it effects. They haven't said oh you spent real money or time into mod hoards, well here we will give you ex amount of mod hoards to make up for that, oh you spent this amount of arkforge upgrading it and etc? Here's a bunch of arkforge to compensate for that. NO, what they are doing to make up for it is SAYING IT IS A DECENT BOOST WHEN IN REALITY, they are counter nerfing a previous nerf. Anyone who gets a zagger drop (purple or oj) after this update will have the same thing we will get in the update. So how does that make it fair to anyone who had it? Oh it doesn't. But that's okay because it is THEIR game and THEY have ownership rights to CHANGE what they want. Well because I have a concealed weapons permit and buy a gun that falls under that permit, it means I can shoot it wherever I want. No there are still rules, you can't just lie to consumers without issues. This isn't stocks, I didn't agree to put money into it knowing it would change. I put money into it KNOWING IT WOULDN'T CHANGE, and now it changes. Meaning I and everyone else who it applies to, should be refunded for it or given something that others won't get.

7thkey
10-11-2014, 02:05 PM
"aren't" doesn't mean "never" in my dictionary.
I am not insulting people who took them by their word. You interpreted their words. I put a lot of AF myself into getting the reload mastery on my Zagger, but I am not complaining now.
They can change their game anytime they want to.

I already said, it wasn't *perfectly* clear, but in my dictionary, "aren't" does not mean "never"

Lol in his dictionary aren't is not short for are not. I said I was not going to steal. I never said I would never steal at a later date.

Thal
10-11-2014, 05:52 PM
http://swiggityswag00.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tumblr_mdi3vmxql31rkq0elo1_400.gif?w=640

Snowclan
10-11-2014, 06:33 PM
The people complaining about having been lied to are being, to put it nicely, overly dramatic.

At the time when they said they weren't going to change the Zagger, it was true. The cooldowns they put in place solved the problem they were trying to solve and they didn't see a reason at that time to do anything more.

No lies involved. No sinister plan to cheat people out of their hard earned money or arkforge.

Time passes. Things change. Now they are doing an overhaul of the weapons. Among other things, they are looking to get rid of random roll properties that don't actually do anything useful. Obviously one of those would be reload speed rolls on guns that can't reload any faster.

My guess is that when they started looking at that, they discovered that the entire reload speed system needed repair. There was supposed to be a minimum reload speed of 1 second. Some guns didn't respect that minimum. Some guns did, but their display said otherwise. So they have undertaken to fix the system as a whole.

In any case, at no point did any of the developers say "We are never, ever, until the end of time or the final shutdown of the Defiance servers, going to change the Zagger."

Thal
10-11-2014, 07:32 PM
Judging by the attitude of a few people I am starting to wonder if people think there is some sort of conspiracy implemented by the Illuminati to over through the World Governments using Defiance?


http://michaelwarden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/crazy-people-dont-know-they-are-crazy-300x192.jpg

Bonehead
10-11-2014, 07:41 PM
Judging by the attitude of a few people I am starting to wonder if people think there is some sort of conspiracy implemented by the Illuminati to over through the World Governments using Defiance?


Believe it or not, that has been mentioned on these forums before.

Thal
10-11-2014, 07:55 PM
Believe it or not, that has been mentioned on these forums before.

Sad part is I'm not suprised

DEATHBRINGER210
10-11-2014, 09:16 PM
since they are nerfing all the reloads. shouldnt they unnerf all reload cool downs? pump up ,time out , 10% ego on reload and etc.?

RAGEFIGHTER
10-11-2014, 10:13 PM
I was talking to another long time players and we were looking back at some of the other "fixes" which hurt the value of our items.

So far I have..

Pre Patch Weapons vs Post Patch Weapons: This was a good change but they gave us no way to add the missing roll to our pre patch weapons.

Consumable Grenades: This ruined whole collections of grenades and killed a unique system special to Defiance.

Shield Typo: This ruined the value of plain IV and V shields of each type and again killed a unique system special to Defiance.

On Reload Cooldown: This didn't ruin that value of weapons necessarily but it did make some less desirable.

The new Zagger change: Telling us months ago this would not be changed and letting us spend time/forge/scrip to acquire these only to go back on your word.





The last one obviously bothers me the most because they outright lied to use.

So what else has Trion done to devalue our items?

i was in start with my smg rush char i discovered ammm at about 1k ego nice smg vot pulser syphon nano nice damage the best damage i tought wow wtf i wuld be dumb if i wont make it beter it was green one!! so i made it orange i moded it i keeped it updated along my ego level all theth by buying bits to buy arkforge so now at 4,8k ego still one of 2 favorite weapons and what one day come in and its like 500 or more damade less then it was so invested alot money in item and xxxing trion just nerf it down afther it wuld bee fine how about money back its not same item wich i was invetin in money its total shtako now!!!

Amack
10-11-2014, 11:41 PM
Believe it or not, that has been mentioned on these forums before.

I remember that person. They had whack job written all over them.

Mr666
10-12-2014, 03:35 AM
I'm not that sure which comment of chumps you are referring to, but I think it is the one where he said "the Creative Lead saying they weren't going to nerf SAWs before they nerfed them? We were told something wouldn't be nerfed and spent forge on it and now we suffer for the lie"
How is telling someone a few weeks before it happens not make it a lie? They did the same thing they are doing with the zagger to the saw except one worse thing, COUNTER NERFING A NERF. They said saws would not get nerfed. What happened? A month before, hey guys just so you know, we are nerfing it. So because they told us they are nerfing it a few eeks before it happens, it doesn't make it a lie? Hmm yeah no that's a lie.

It would also help to [reply with quote] instead of just posting a reply when referring to ones comment.

If most people wouldn't lie, this issue wouldn't even be a thing. If the devs used their brains, they'd realize this isn't a exploit and the gun was made to reach under 1 reload no matter what they say. With this "fix," it makes all t5 and t4 reload mods useless to any weapon that already has 1 second reload like say a needler or something because the minimum is one so a t3 mod will result IN THE SAME OUTCOME. I guess "most people" didn't take two minutes of their time to actually think with this stupid situation to begin with.

Hey guys, ummm nothing is supposed to uh, reach under 1 reload because we have a minimum reload time thing, but ya know, we created weapons that have 1.0 and 1.2 reloads and you can get reload synergies and mods that will put it under 1 but ya know, we won't admit that we didn't think anything through, so we are going to call it a bug and have it a day. Thanks trion, just say because grenades next time. Trust me it'll work betterHi guy I wasn't talking to but felt the need to think I'm so simple that I don't know how to click a button to reply with quote. They never call the the reload under 1.0 a bug and in fact about two or three months ago(maybe longer) Trick stated that he wouldn't fix the zagger because its be unfair to the people who have it already and that it was in fact Trion's fault for not putting in algorithms to stop something like this from happening. So did Trick lie to us? No, it is a change of heart and a base of ideas of how the game should work and play because you know people sometime change their minds on matters after sometime of thinking about it. At the time he and the team has no plans to make this change but after plans for new content and looking at things maybe they said "**** we have to go back on our word on this this matter or that". I love how game developers can't fu*k up without people calling them lairs or money hungry. Misunderstanding is killing the human race can it not kill are fun in games and with whose make them.

Chump Norris
10-12-2014, 05:23 AM
Hi guy I wasn't talking to but felt the need to think I'm so simple that I don't know how to click a button to reply with quote. They never call the the reload under 1.0 a bug and in fact about two or three months ago(maybe longer) Trick stated that he wouldn't fix the zagger because its be unfair to the people who have it already and that it was in fact Trion's fault for not putting in algorithms to stop something like this from happening. So did Trick lie to us? No, it is a change of heart and a base of ideas of how the game should work and play because you know people sometime change their minds on matters after sometime of thinking about it. At the time he and the team has no plans to make this change but after plans for new content and looking at things maybe they said "**** we have to go back on our word on this this matter or that". I love how game developers can't fu*k up without people calling them lairs or money hungry. Misunderstanding is killing the human race can it not kill are fun in games and with whose make them.

So in your world you can't lie so long as you have a change of heart? He is a liar because he stated they would not be changing it. I and many other wouldn't have bothered "chasing" perfect Zaggers if we weren't told they wouldn't be changed. I stayed away from the Zaggers for a long time because I thought they would be fixed but our glorious creative lead said they wouldn't be and I took him at his word.

Mr666
10-12-2014, 05:34 AM
So in your world you can't lie so long as you have a change of heart? He is a liar because he stated they would not be changing it. I and many other wouldn't have bothered "chasing" perfect Zaggers if we weren't told they wouldn't be changed. I stayed away from the Zaggers for a long time because I thought they would be fixed but our glorious creative lead said they wouldn't be and I took him at his word.It was a broken gun from the start so you should of automatically thought it would be fixed to bring in line with weapons of its kind or weapons in general. In the start of the game I starting using FRC SAW and it was god there was no weapon that could out do it. I was soloing everything with easy and I knew that when balancing or nerfs as you people like to call it started to come that it would be first on the list. I think they fail is on both sides here because Trion does have a hard time thinking ahead when adding updates and what way they want the game to go but also players should know that a game like this is ever changing. So don't put all your money red and cry when you lost it.

Psycroww
10-12-2014, 12:51 PM
Hi guy I wasn't talking to but felt the need to think I'm so simple that I don't know how to click a button to reply with quote. They never call the the reload under 1.0 a bug and in fact about two or three months ago(maybe longer) Trick stated that he wouldn't fix the zagger because its be unfair to the people who have it already and that it was in fact Trion's fault for not putting in algorithms to stop something like this from happening. So did Trick lie to us? No, it is a change of heart and a base of ideas of how the game should work and play because you know people sometime change their minds on matters after sometime of thinking about it. At the time he and the team has no plans to make this change but after plans for new content and looking at things maybe they said "**** we have to go back on our word on this this matter or that". I love how game developers can't fu*k up without people calling them lairs or money hungry. Misunderstanding is killing the human race can it not kill are fun in games and with whose make them.
Lol just thought I'd give you a tip, never called you or thought you were simple so that assumption is all on you.
You say they never called it a bug yet their exact words are "And you would be right to ask! There’s a long-standing bug that allowed guns to be reloaded instantly if you modded it to be exactly a 0 second reload time. " take your time to carefully read that and you'll see the bug comment, I won't bold it for you so you won't think I'm calling you simple.
As for your comment on trick, that's not what he said word for word. Since you aren't simple I won't provide you with the link right to it and you can go find it yourself. What makes them liars is when they lie repeatedly and they are money hungry because if they weren't, they would give us some arkforge and mod hoards to compensate for their ******** "misunderstanding"

Psycroww
10-12-2014, 12:55 PM
It was a broken gun from the start so you should of automatically thought it would be fixed to bring in line with weapons of its kind or weapons in general. In the start of the game I starting using FRC SAW and it was god there was no weapon that could out do it. I was soloing everything with easy and I knew that when balancing or nerfs as you people like to call it started to come that it would be first on the list. I think they fail is on both sides here because Trion does have a hard time thinking ahead when adding updates and what way they want the game to go but also players should know that a game like this is ever changing. So don't put all your money red and cry when you lost it.

You're right, it was a broken gun TO BEGIN WITH, Then they nerfed the damage making it terrible. Explain the counter nerf of that nerf that they are doing now? Cause I'd like to hear what you think since 4 devs can't tell me how that makes any sense. They nerf the thing cause people complain, now they add damage to it because people complain. You can only defend a company so long until you have enough.

edispilfnairb
10-12-2014, 02:50 PM
Here is the plain, and simple truth. Trion is a business and without cash flow they would go out of business. That means no game for us, period.

Trion's product is virtual, not physical. So to have customers buy their Virtual product their has to be faith that the probuct will no be altered beyond the customers satisfaction in the future. The Zagger and other zero reload load weapons were a Huge attraction for Trion. People spent alot of money chasing the Zagger( buying DLC, Arkforge, Mod boxes ETC).

Most people did this because one of Trions head guy stated they would not be changed, Period. There was no maybe's in his statement.

Now Trion is in a pickle. If they go through with this third nerf (Change) people will never again invest in their virtual goods.
Why??? Because the core of what they enjoyed about the the item is no longer there.

Customer satisfaction Trion, rule number one in any thriving business, ecspecialy this virtual stuff that is a get away from the stress of real life. Your items you are selling are for entertainment and enjoyment. When the trust, entertainment, customer satisfaction is gone all you will have left is F2P and a empty wallet.

Either do not go through with this nerf, or do the right thing and return everyones thosands of Arkforge and bits. Lets face it, your creative lead mislead the entire community at large with his statement. That breaks faith in your product and directly effects your net income in the long run.

This is by no means an attack on the creative lead, just a statement of truth from a 20 year business manager who has invested almost $3700 in your product. I am a Trion customer, and these reasons above are why I opened my wallet, and what will prevent me and others, from opening said wallet again.

edispilfnairb
10-12-2014, 03:08 PM
One other fact to keep in mind here. Since day one weapons have been able to reach reloads of less then 1 second. So, the reasoning they have for this change is not sound. I had a prepatch Nano fragger that was .7 reload as well as other guns.

There has never been a system check in place to make guns take 1 second to reload as was stated. That is just another misleading statement.

DEATHBRINGER210
10-12-2014, 03:33 PM
Here is the plain, and simple truth. Trion is a business and without cash flow they would go out of business. That means no game for us, period.

Trion's product is virtual, not physical. So to have customers buy their Virtual product their has to be faith that the probuct will no be altered beyond the customers satisfaction in the future. The Zagger and other zero reload load weapons were a Huge attraction for Trion. People spent alot of money chasing the Zagger( buying DLC, Arkforge, Mod boxes ETC).

Most people did this because one of Trions head guy stated they would not be changed, Period. There was no maybe's in his statement.

Now Trion is in a pickle. If they go through with this third nerf (Change) people will never again invest in their virtual goods.
Why??? Because the core of what they enjoyed about the the item is no longer there.

Customer satisfaction Trion, rule number one in any thriving business, ecspecialy this virtual stuff that is a get away from the stress of real life. Your items you are selling are for entertainment and enjoyment. When the trust, entertainment, customer satisfaction is gone all you will have left is F2P and a empty wallet.

Either do not go through with this nerf, or do the right thing and return everyones thosands of Arkforge and bits. Lets face it, your creative lead mislead the entire community at large with his statement. That breaks faith in your product and directly effects your net income in the long run.

This is by no means an attack on the creative lead, just a statement of truth from a 20 year business manager who has invested almost $3700 in your product. I am a Trion customer, and these reasons above are why I opened my wallet, and what will prevent me and others, from opening said wallet again.

i would also like a refund for the all forge i wasted on 10 zaggers , thats alot forge wasted

DSW
10-12-2014, 05:29 PM
speaking of grenades -


I still miss my 55z's and 55w's, though.

i joined the game back in aug'13 but haven't figured any differences between most of nades of same effect except for det time. maybe there actually was something useful in old system, but i think it was way beyond understanding for many.

Bonehead
10-12-2014, 06:06 PM
If they go through with this third nerf (Change) people will never again invest in their virtual goods.


You make good points but there is no "if". This is how they manage their game. After the most hideous bugs are dealt with on the PTS, the new content with all the planed changes will go live.
End of 0 reload.
End of story.

Psycroww
10-12-2014, 06:54 PM
i would also like a refund for the all forge i wasted on 10 zaggers , thats alot forge wasted

Unfortunately, it wont happen. I have messaged multiple devs and received no reply. I don't think they did it with the saw, therefore I do not see them doing it for the zagger. I would like a refund or something just like everyone else who wasted time/currency/money on zaggers.

edispilfnairb
10-12-2014, 07:06 PM
Unfortunately, it wont happen. I have messaged multiple devs and received no reply. I don't think they did it with the saw, therefore I do not see them doing it for the zagger. I would like a refund or something just like everyone else who wasted time/currency/money on zaggers.

The saw nerf was long before Arkforge. The saw nerf came before Post Patch rolls.

Psycroww
10-12-2014, 07:09 PM
The saw nerf was long before Arkforge. The saw nerf came before Post Patch rolls.
Ah, okay. I just meant as in, since they nerfed it, the people who used it didn't get anything. So I think they wont give anything to us with the zaggers even if we spent money/time/arkforge on it.

DEATHBRINGER210
10-12-2014, 08:35 PM
and they also nerfed the couriers

DEATHBRINGER210
10-12-2014, 08:36 PM
pretty much all saw offs are going to be useless now

DEATHBRINGER210
10-12-2014, 09:05 PM
so all the npcs are getting this nerf too right? like the raiders , their smgs ands rockets need a big time nerf they are to op

DEATHBRINGER210
10-13-2014, 02:33 AM
Unfortunately, it wont happen. I have messaged multiple devs and received no reply. I don't think they did it with the saw, therefore I do not see them doing it for the zagger. I would like a refund or something just like everyone else who wasted time/currency/money on zaggers.

why not they refunded all the forge to all the people that bought and upgraded the defiant few weapons? and zaggers take a hell of alot forge and time to roll? vs a gang buster or bloodhound

DEATHBRINGER210
10-13-2014, 02:38 AM
You know what? I stoped playing in a daily basis and i also didn`t renew my Patron Pass.

It`s mistakes after mistakes with this game.

what is the point with patron pass now?

Ned Kelly
10-13-2014, 05:38 AM
Well, IMO after this, polish, tune up re-customisation of yet another perk should convince whats left of the player base to spend up big and stay around. I have played this game since day one and my hope for this game is akin to sand through the fingers now.

I'm yet to really see any implementation of players wants in all of that time. The original devs left the current bunch a monstrosity to fix. But instead of fixing client issues and making the game gell as a whole, they seemingly have no foci.

One dev is changing rolls on weapons whilst some other part of defiance team are creating weapons that shouldn't be released. Will another part is introducing pay to win elements into the bit store and not creating an access point from within the game.

Then seemingly (again entirely my opinion) the company as a whole appears to have dropped support or a want for the product to be a long term success and instead are concentrating on things like trove and archage (yes I can see the denials coming) but with the emails you receive etc how can you spin it any other way, when all it is, is just spin.

The beautiful diamond in the rough the was.... WAS defiance is being polished by someone with a sledgehammer that has no willingness to concede on some points or accept they are doing things, that may not be considered wrong, but against what the vast majority want, not just the vocal minority on the forums.

Some highlights for me have been:

Grenades (took many many many..... hours to get a legendary and then ruined it with the current system) just because?
Taking an absolute age to fix broken side missions?
DLC's - need I really comment about warmaster or others

It seems like everytime I hunt and hunt (you know, the longer more fulfilling chase etc) for something and then finally get it, it's nerfed.

I feel burnt out with this, there is no create with this game, no blossoming of well crafted idea's and direction. It seems the only flair is in the way to frustrate and alienate the player base, or the ability to zero in on the things people enjoy about the game and take them away, reduce the rewards to nothing or repack it and call it a DLC.

Are you trying to make an american game that is world renowned for being a grindfest? You want to be able to say "we are not reducing the rewards", but you cannot say " we are taking away the tools for you to get rewards"

To "The Company" This post IMO is both constructive and needed!!! You need to take this criticism, read it, take a step back and assess the direction the game has taken since release. Assess the changes in player numbers alongside dlc releases and the gameplay mechanic changes you have made and see whether it was all worth it. Assess the way idea's are processed and implemented into the game. Think about if you hadn't taken all these things away from the players whether the numbers would have plummeted to the extent they have?

The transmutation of the diamond to rock salt is almost complete.

Bonehead
10-13-2014, 06:04 AM
I'm feelin ya Ned.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 06:41 AM
Well, IMO after this, polish, tune up re-customisation of yet another perk should convince whats left of the player base to spend up big and stay around. I have played this game since day one and my hope for this game is akin to sand through the fingers now.

I'm yet to really see any implementation of players wants in all of that time. The original devs left the current bunch a monstrosity to fix. But instead of fixing client issues and making the game gell as a whole, they seemingly have no foci.

One dev is changing rolls on weapons whilst some other part of defiance team are creating weapons that shouldn't be released. Will another part is introducing pay to win elements into the bit store and not creating an access point from within the game.

Then seemingly (again entirely my opinion) the company as a whole appears to have dropped support or a want for the product to be a long term success and instead are concentrating on things like trove and archage (yes I can see the denials coming) but with the emails you receive etc how can you spin it any other way, when all it is, is just spin.

The beautiful diamond in the rough the was.... WAS defiance is being polished by someone with a sledgehammer that has no willingness to concede on some points or accept they are doing things, that may not be considered wrong, but against what the vast majority want, not just the vocal minority on the forums.

Some highlights for me have been:

Grenades (took many many many..... hours to get a legendary and then ruined it with the current system) just because?
Taking an absolute age to fix broken side missions?
DLC's - need I really comment about warmaster or others

It seems like everytime I hunt and hunt (you know, the longer more fulfilling chase etc) for something and then finally get it, it's nerfed.

I feel burnt out with this, there is no create with this game, no blossoming of well crafted idea's and direction. It seems the only flair is in the way to frustrate and alienate the player base, or the ability to zero in on the things people enjoy about the game and take them away, reduce the rewards to nothing or repack it and call it a DLC.

Are you trying to make an american game that is world renowned for being a grindfest? You want to be able to say "we are not reducing the rewards", but you cannot say " we are taking away the tools for you to get rewards"

To "The Company" This post IMO is both constructive and needed!!! You need to take this criticism, read it, take a step back and assess the direction the game has taken since release. Assess the changes in player numbers alongside dlc releases and the gameplay mechanic changes you have made and see whether it was all worth it. Assess the way idea's are processed and implemented into the game. Think about if you hadn't taken all these things away from the players whether the numbers would have plummeted to the extent they have?

The transmutation of the diamond to rock salt is almost complete.

Send this to any and all devs you see, make this a thread on its own, comment it on every dev post. Make sure SOMEONE from the company reads it, because it is one of the best things I've ever read on these forums. It is so accurate.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 07:08 AM
Lol just thought I'd give you a tip, never called you or thought you were simple so that assumption is all on you.
You say they never called it a bug yet their exact words are "And you would be right to ask! There’s a long-standing bug that allowed guns to be reloaded instantly if you modded it to be exactly a 0 second reload time. " take your time to carefully read that and you'll see the bug comment, I won't bold it for you so you won't think I'm calling you simple.
As for your comment on trick, that's not what he said word for word. Since you aren't simple I won't provide you with the link right to it and you can go find it yourself. What makes them liars is when they lie repeatedly and they are money hungry because if they weren't, they would give us some arkforge and mod hoards to compensate for their ******** "misunderstanding"He called the zagger a bug not reload over all a bug. I know say he is right because I have used a other saw-off I believe FRC and made it have 0.0 reload yet is still was not as fast the zagger. I don't think the mess up here so I don't see the need for them to give us anything and I believe the misunderstanding is on the player part. You think you know what the DEVs are saying but they use in-house words all the time and change then when speaking to the public yet sometime still use the in-house because that what they use everyday. I named chuck in the post if I cared to quote the man I would have but felt is was unneeded due to the fact it was my one and only post at the time.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 07:28 AM
You're right, it was a broken gun TO BEGIN WITH, Then they nerfed the damage making it terrible. Explain the counter nerf of that nerf that they are doing now? Cause I'd like to hear what you think since 4 devs can't tell me how that makes any sense. They nerf the thing cause people complain, now they add damage to it because people complain. You can only defend a company so long until you have enough.This is was you fail because I'm not defending anyone here but a point. That a person is allowed to mess up so don't dehumanize them just because you willing give them money. That fact that they nerf or balance is to find a fix to a problem..... which you asked for...... so are you complain? Would like them to stop trying because then you cant ask for anymore free stuff cause there wouldn't be anymore mess ups to fix. I asking for a little understanding is all or not to jump the gun and call demon every time they mess up or which I can agree is more often then not. Be more helpful join the PTS server and get everyone on the same page on matters like this.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 08:03 AM
He called the zagger a bug not reload over all a bug. I know say he is right because I have used a other saw-off I believe FRC and made it have 0.0 reload yet is still was not as fast the zagger. I don't think the mess up here so I don't see the need for them to give us anything and I believe the misunderstanding is on the player part. You think you know what the DEVs are saying but they use in-house words all the time and change then when speaking to the public yet sometime still use the in-house because that what they use everyday. I named chuck in the post if I cared to quote the man I would have but felt is was unneeded due to the fact it was my one and only post at the time.

Sigh, you are wrong. First it's not a he, it is the article. And the article does not refer to the zagger, the exact sentence is "There’s a long-standing bug that allowed guns to be reloaded instantly if you modded it to be exactly a 0 second reload time. "" and since the zagger is a individual weapon, then it is referring to every gun able to reach 0 reload. The issue they are saying is guns aren't meant to reach under 1 in GENERAL. You failed to miss that point by saying your 0 reload wasn't as fast as the zagger. The issue is not the zagger to begin with. It's the fact that weapons can reach under 1. They made multiple weapons that reach under 1 on their own doing. It's not a bug, it's not a exploit, it was made to be under 1. There is no argument, anything they say against that is an excuse. first of all the quote they gave doesn't make sense to begin with. If it is 0 reload, then it should be instant. How do you animate 0 seconds? You don't. It just instantly does it. So for them to say it is confusing. It's not my fault they fail.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 08:52 AM
This is was you fail because I'm not defending anyone here but a point. That a person is allowed to mess up so don't dehumanize them just because you willing give them money. That fact that they nerf or balance is to find a fix to a problem..... which you asked for...... so are you complain? Would like them to stop trying because then you cant ask for anymore free stuff cause there wouldn't be anymore mess ups to fix. I asking for a little understanding is all or not to jump the gun and call demon every time they mess up or which I can agree is more often then not. Be more helpful join the PTS server and get everyone on the same page on matters like this.
Are you really saying that is where I fail? First of all your word choice is terrible in attempting to explain your point, me joining or not joining the PTS won't do anything. At the end of the day, what it comes down to is it is their game, not mine. It's almost like the president, he gets help (us on pts) and they (us) will give either bad or strong points, but ultimately it will be his(trion) final choice to make the changes or whatever it is they agree on. Its not like I'm the only person on defiance who doesn't agree with it, multiple and I mean the vast majority of people see this new update, fix, nerf, boost whatever the hell you want to call it, ridiculous and stupid. It really is if you think about it. Weapons should be able to reach under 1, saying they shouldn't sosunters them making weapons be able to reach under 1 to begin with. If they knew this was a issue, they never would have made guns drop with 0.8 reload or 1.0 reload and have reload synergies and mods. This game for the past year has not only fired/got rid off the original team, but has shown a lack of care towards their community. (Customer service, terrible updates, the list goes on and on.) no matter what you or I or anyone else says, this game has already reached its downfall. Whatever choices they try to make will either keep people playing, get a few more new people, or make the majority of vets leave and the game will fail. Making more useless things like this are going to lead to that.

Thal
10-13-2014, 10:57 AM
multiple and I mean the vast majority of people see this new update, fix, nerf, boost whatever the hell you want to call it, ridiculous and stupid.

And where do you base this premises from? A Hypothetical guess? a Poll? a head count? Gallup? things get nerfed all the time some you'll like some you won't but that does not mean everyone or even a majority will agree with you.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 01:19 PM
And where do you base this premises from? A Hypothetical guess? a Poll? a head count? Gallup? things get nerfed all the time some you'll like some you won't but that does not mean everyone or even a majority will agree with you.

I base this off of being in a clan with 200+ active members, and when I brought it up to the people who don't go on the forums, every single one of them said it was a bad idea. Not a single person said oh I like that or oh that's good or oh that has a good point or anything. Along with every officer and veteran in the clan agreeing. You know like Altra, someone who does more to the community then some of the support team and devs actually do.

When I put it in zone chat, I got instant whispers asking what I was talking about, I even had people reply in zone chat, again, no one said it was good in any way and resulted in either being angry or annoyed.

Now if you go off of here and the forums, the devs can't even offer a legit reason, (I messaged over 5 devs and not one could give me a good answer.)

This post was made 3 days ago and is just about to hit 2.5k views, meaning a lot of people view it and it has the most views since 10-10-14 posts. In the news and announcements, it as well is one of the most viewed and commented posts. The news and announcements has 15 pages of comments, just as many as ones from 7-14-14

Or you can use common sense and actually think about this update and realize it is a terrible update to begin with.

Guess what they said about a counter nerf of them nerfing the damage in the past?- Nothing.
Guess what they said about the lie?- Nothing.
Guess what they said about compensating to the people who lost a large amount of currency/money/time? ----Nothing.
Guess what they ACTUALLY DID SAY. "The "nerf" you're referring to is closing the 0 reload bug which affects any gun that can get to 0 reload, not just the Zagger. The Zagger itself is actually getting a decent boost with the patch." But then the article says it has to do with all weapons that reach under 1 reload as well being fixed.
How is that good? It's not. It is applied to a (zagger- a pointless shotgun hardly anyone uses to begin with BECAUSE it was nerfed in the past. Keep in mind hardly anyone has the corect one because drop rates are very low.) variety of shotguns that not many people have or are OP with.

What does this do? It ruins t5 and t4 reload mods to put on weapons that already have a 1.0 or 1.2 reload
It ruins a ton of guns that you have modded under 1 because now they have to make EVERY gun reach 1 second which will have its issues to begin with, it will replace multiple 0 reload weapon rolls and other things, it is going to make people, really and actually, complain against zaggers because they are counter nerfing and giving it damage BACK, and now giving it A EXTRA SHOT. Yeah because that is really good right? No.

So not talking about the 0 reload and the zagger and all of that, how about making another perk useless. Oh right no comment on that either. I think you get the point. This doesn't fix anything, it only adds more problems that they will have to "fix" They say weapons can be modded to reach under 1 reload yet, I killed the WM last night, got a volge breacher and guesssssssssssssssss what. 0.8 reload unmodded, un everything in my inventory. So yeah I already said it 500 times so I won't say again how that means their system is flawled when it was created and didn't become flawed because we "modded it" or exploited it. If it gets to 0 reload, it is because they made it that way.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 01:33 PM
majority!?!...... I see the same 100(if that really) people come on here and yell and shout about how they are the majority. I have 70 members clan that I run with on Xbox 360 NA and I know about 6 other clans that add up to about 250 members. Now where are all there people that are the majority? They are playing the game that is where the majority. You guys here are just the biggest voices screaming in to space and you are just a small minority.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 01:38 PM
majority!?!...... I see the same 100(if that really) people come on here and yell and shout about how they are the majority. I have 70 members clan that I run with on Xbox 360 NA and I know about 6 other clans that add up to about 250 members. Now where are all there people that are the majority? They are playing the game that is where the majority. You guys here are just the biggest voices screaming in to space and you are just a small minority.

My clan has 900 members in it. You were saying? Next time read the whole post before being sidetracked on one word (majority) and go on a useless rant.

satirized
10-13-2014, 03:11 PM
A lot. Countless times. The whole jackpot system devalued a lot of items.

However, when something gets devalued, something else rise in value.

Eg, old school +8 mag courier worth a lot more then they should.

Eg, zaggers gets nerfed. t4 rapidshot pod price and zagger price drop. Breacher/fragger etc price rise.
Syphon gets nerfed, rad value increase.

Then again, sometimes, when something gets nerfed, its value increases for some weird reason.

Aka, score farming and bio. I seriously question the sanity of some of people who wants bio SMGs nowadays. It no longer is worth your time to score farm.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 05:34 PM
My clan has 900 members in it. You were saying? Next time read the whole post before being sidetracked on one word (majority) and go on a useless rant.The point was not to name the number in my clan but the amount that come to the forums and its a crazy small amount to the amount who play the game. Also I'm bet you don't know over 100 people in your clan and having members is not the same as having active members and knowing what those members want. It was useless its a point or more of a loose fact.

satirized
10-13-2014, 05:55 PM
majority!?!...... I see the same 100(if that really) people come on here and yell and shout about how they are the majority. I have 70 members clan that I run with on Xbox 360 NA and I know about 6 other clans that add up to about 250 members. Now where are all there people that are the majority? They are playing the game that is where the majority. You guys here are just the biggest voices screaming in to space and you are just a small minority.

Do you truly believe trion nerfing things are actually fixing a problem? If anything, nerfing create problems.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 06:12 PM
Do you truly believe trion nerfing things are actually fixing a problem? If anything, nerfing create problems.How many times did it take for Edison to make a working light bulb? I'm not saying anywhere near what him and his team did is what they are trying but even when cook something there is a balance to find the way that works. You added too much salt this time and next time you don't add enough salt. The problem is already here and people like the problem so how do you fix without cause too much damage is now the case.

Psycroww
10-13-2014, 06:13 PM
The point was not to name the number in my clan but the amount that come to the forums and its a crazy small amount to the amount who play the game. Also I'm bet you don't know over 100 people in your clan and having members is not the same as having active members and knowing what those members want. It was useless its a point or more of a loose fact.

Actually I do know 100 people in the clan. And I already stated we have 200 active members on daily. I already said that. But you don't read so.

satirized
10-13-2014, 06:18 PM
How many times did it take for Edison to make a working light bulb? I'm not saying anywhere near what him and his team did is what they are trying but even when cook something there is a balance to find the way that works. You added too much salt this time and next time you don't add enough salt. The problem is already here and people like the problem so how do you fix without cause too much damage is now the case.

May I remind you how much edison's team in terms of investment and return vs trion's?

We are not making technological breakthrough. We are making a profitable game.

Mr666
10-13-2014, 10:13 PM
Actually I do know 100 people in the clan. And I already stated we have 200 active members on daily. I already said that. But you don't read so.So you voice the thoughts and views of 100 people? I think your 200 voices are really just about 50 or so people. You don't want to talk you want a fight and this is why most don't speak up about liking the change because they don't think it worth their time to fight someone who is not even thinking about things but in their own way. I'm done but thankz

Mr666
10-13-2014, 10:15 PM
May I remind you how much edison's team in terms of investment and return vs trion's?

We are not making technological breakthrough. We are making a profitable game.The point was missed... things take time to get right

satirized
10-13-2014, 10:42 PM
The point was missed... things take time to get right

They had 2 years. No more excuses.

crasher
10-13-2014, 11:06 PM
Well, IMO after this, polish, tune up re-customisation of yet another perk should convince whats left of the player base to spend up big and stay around. I have played this game since day one and my hope for this game is akin to sand through the fingers now.

[snip all the stuff]

The transmutation of the diamond to rock salt is almost complete.

I'm with Bone, agreeing with you.
Good points, all.
Thanks for the summary.

Psycroww
10-14-2014, 05:47 AM
So you voice the thoughts and views of 100 people? I think your 200 voices are really just about 50 or so people. You don't want to talk you want a fight and this is why most don't speak up about liking the change because they don't think it worth their time to fight someone who is not even thinking about things but in their own way. I'm done but thankz

Honestly I am really tempted to go off on you but I won't. You aren't worth the time and you are providing to be more of a nuisance then you are anything else. The point of a forum is a place where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. I am not looking for a fight, I was voicing MY opinion. In my first 4 comments, I never once listed how others felt, I listed my exact thoughts. I provided you and anyone else whom was concerned with examples and legit reasons why this update is complete ****. Now you went off to defend Trick by not only misquoting him, but you then seemed to go on and on and drift off from your main point to begin with.

You accused me of not even knowing 1/9 of the players in my clan. You then said I didn't know what I was talking about when it came to majority of players and you talked about only seeing the same people on the forums and you know of an actual majority which consists of 250 players. You are no longer doing what a forum is meant to be, you are just being plain ignorant. You don't know me nor do I know you. But you completely missed the point of this thread and my comments.

But I provided you with valuable information stating how you may know all these people you play with, but there are just as many in my clan alone. On PC/NA, Cronus and Evo two of probably the largest active clans on defiance always do warmasters together. And we have 3 other tiny clans that tag along as well, and no one has mentioned this update being good. That is the majority of the online pc na server seeing how we are the majority of those even online to begin with. You not only have failed in every post to comment on everything I've mentioned, but you go off onto another useless point that makes no sense whatsoever. You can think what you want at the end of the day, but when all the vets leave, and this game crumbles in its demise, you'll be sitting wherever you are asking why it happened. I have replied to everything you said in all of your comments, and you only touch on small points in my large comments and I have countered every one. I know I'm right. You can look everywhere on here and see more and more disappointed fans. I'm glad you're done so I don't have to be baffled on how ignorant your being. "Thanks"

On a complete side note, 3 people have argued with you on your points, no one has even been able to give a viable comeback to any of mine. It doesn't take common sense to see who is right and who is wrong.

JEMINAI
10-14-2014, 06:20 AM
the zagger was laughable and rediculous. there shouldnt be 1 item in game that tips everything in your favor.

Mr666
10-14-2014, 06:43 AM
They had 2 years. No more excuses.Trion keeps me informed about changes coming to the game so I can cash in when something is going under or if something is on the rise. They have fixed the annoying parts of the game for me and are doing another with this broken zagger. I have always gotten help for the tickets and much more so on the live chat side whenever I have had a problem. There are some problems but more in recent times then the past like the update to turn any weapons to orange was the stupidest thing they have ever done. I knew that wouldn't last long so I let it play out. I don't think they should be flawless or anywhere near it.

satirized
10-14-2014, 11:43 AM
Trion keeps me informed about changes coming to the game so I can cash in when something is going under or if something is on the rise. They have fixed the annoying parts of the game for me and are doing another with this broken zagger. I have always gotten help for the tickets and much more so on the live chat side whenever I have had a problem. There are some problems but more in recent times then the past like the update to turn any weapons to orange was the stupidest thing they have ever done. I knew that wouldn't last long so I let it play out. I don't think they should be flawless or anywhere near it.

You want a list of issues with the game that way more problematic then zagger? Some I am...... not at liberty to talk about it but most of are valid concerns that weigh more then the zagger.

Mr666
10-14-2014, 12:10 PM
You want a list of issues with the game that way more problematic then zagger? Some I am...... not at liberty to talk about it but most of are valid concerns that weigh more then the zagger.List the top 10 things

SirServed
10-14-2014, 12:14 PM
You want a list of issues with the game that way more problematic then zagger? Some I am...... not at liberty to talk about it but most of are valid concerns that weigh more then the zagger.
He doesn't have the security clearance necessary to know any of that stuff, pier.

satirized
10-14-2014, 12:19 PM
He doesn't have the security clearance necessary to know any of that stuff, pier.

Heh, trust me, the more.... shadowy stuff stays shadowy. I am just gonna talk about synergy unbalance and yeah. I am trying to think of more things I can talk about thats not... well, outside of his "security clearance".

SirServed
10-14-2014, 12:29 PM
You can tell him about how the VBI AR is the best AR they've ever designed and why. No shadow business whatsoever.

satirized
10-14-2014, 12:40 PM
You can tell him about how the VBI AR is the best AR they've ever designed and why. No shadow business whatsoever.

Should I add the part about using AR is bad and AR are horrible weapons in general?

DEATHBRINGER210
10-14-2014, 12:50 PM
the zagger was laughable and rediculous. there shouldnt be 1 item in game that tips everything in your favor.

just like the crime fighter is way op , this gun needs an even bigger nerf

SirServed
10-14-2014, 12:53 PM
Should I add the part about using AR is bad and AR are horrible weapons in general?
ARs aren't horrible. They just don't allow you to maximize your performance while in combat.

Zaggers are broken as hell, get over it. You have to admit that even at the simplest level of reason, a weapon with NO RELOAD TIME WHATSOEVER is going to break some balance to death. Failure to agree on even that point is what makes this thread so shameful. People come here trying to play the victim as if their rights have been violated.


just like the crime fighter is way op , this gun needs an even bigger nerf
I must say, I miss the days when DF weapons were new and everyone couldn't wait to get their hands on the oh so broken Gang Buster. I was the only Crimefighter user back then and it was lovely. Now I see people exploding themselves left and right with it on the regular. Considering its potential to wreck things, it could easily use a 25% cut in damage done. It's like an Area Suppressor with a nano and 6 times the ammo reserve.

satirized
10-14-2014, 01:00 PM
ARs aren't horrible. They just don't allow you to maximize your performance while in combat.

Zaggers are broken as hell, get over it. You have to admit that even at the simplest level of reason, a weapon with NO RELOAD TIME WHATSOEVER is going to break some balance to death. Failure to agree on even that point is what makes this thread so shameful. People come here trying to play the victim as if their rights have been violated.



I am not you know who. I dont use a zagger like almost ever even before the nerf. Shrug, most of the AR users are not caring about optimizing their DPS, which I have a problem against. TBH, I am pretty sure you can achieve the same result with a non zagger saw off, theoretically. Sure a lot of things in this game could use a nerf, and even more crappy weapon could use a buff.

A smart man would have got the info from PTS patch and sold it during the zagger hype, walking away with an overflowing wallet. If you are not smart enough to dump it before the value dropped, its your own fault.

satirized
10-14-2014, 01:03 PM
I must say, I miss the days when DF weapons were new and everyone couldn't wait to get their hands on the oh so broken Gang Buster. I was the only Crimefighter user back then and it was lovely. Now I see people exploding themselves left and right with it on the regular. Considering its potential to wreck things, it could easily use a 25% cut in damage done. It's like an Area Suppressor with a nano and 6 times the ammo reserve.

Or area suppressor could use a buff. Actually, most detonator could use a buff.

satirized
10-14-2014, 01:07 PM
just like the crime fighter is way op , this gun needs an even bigger nerf

It seems people in this game think all burst DPS weapon are OP. Ranger and breacher needs a nerf then.

Fallen_Aingeal
10-14-2014, 01:58 PM
Gonna chime in here.

Until last night I had never had the privilege to use a 0/0 zagger. Mine is 0.4. A good friend loaned me one to try out before the fix.

I gotta tell ya. It was real nice. I also noticed that my play style shouldn't be hampered by this fix at all. Time and play will tell.

*Edit*

My go to rifle in PVE is my Rad VBI AR. Been using this as my main since last extralife. Double mag, triple damage. The only time I'm not holding this gun is when I'm in PvP.

SirServed
10-14-2014, 02:12 PM
I am not you know who. I dont use a zagger like almost ever even before the nerf. Shrug, most of the AR users are not caring about optimizing their DPS, which I have a problem against. TBH, I am pretty sure you can achieve the same result with a non zagger saw off, theoretically. Sure a lot of things in this game could use a nerf, and even more crappy weapon could use a buff.

A smart man would have got the info from PTS patch and sold it during the zagger hype, walking away with an overflowing wallet. If you are not smart enough to dump it before the value dropped, its your own fault.
I wasn't throwing the Zagger rant at you. I didn't want to derail the thread too much, so I tossed that in there. Also, I started a thread about how it seems Explosive weapons themselves need a boost instead of nerfing everything else. The scaling and nano systems really call for Explosives to either always crit or leave their owners wanting.

SirServed
10-14-2014, 02:15 PM
Gonna chime in here.

Until last night I had never had the privilege to use a 0/0 zagger. Mine is 0.4. A good friend loaned me one to try out before the fix.

I gotta tell ya. It was real nice. I also noticed that my play style shouldn't be hampered by this fix at all. Time and play will tell.

*Edit*

My go to rifle in PVE is my Rad VBI AR. Been using this as my main since last extralife. Double mag, triple damage. The only time I'm not holding this gun is when I'm in PvP.
The problem is that several players use this thing as their Go To weapon. In their eyes, their play style (personal opinion aside) is directly threatened.

satirized
10-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Gonna chime in here.

Until last night I had never had the privilege to use a 0/0 zagger. Mine is 0.4. A good friend loaned me one to try out before the fix.

I gotta tell ya. It was real nice. I also noticed that my play style shouldn't be hampered by this fix at all. Time and play will tell.

*Edit*

My go to rifle in PVE is my Rad VBI AR. Been using this as my main since last extralife. Double mag, triple damage. The only time I'm not holding this gun is when I'm in PvP.

Its was OP before the ego power nerf, now, not so much compared against a breacher.

As for ARs, its a topic best for another day. I find another time to complain ARs.

Fallen_Aingeal
10-14-2014, 02:23 PM
Its was OP before the ego power nerf, now, not so much compared against a breacher.

As for ARs, its a topic best for another day. I find another time to complain ARs.I was never really a shotty player. Still not, but just recently getting into PvP, I've found myself trying out weapons I haven't used, like bug guns and shotguns, since mastering them. LOL

SirServed
10-14-2014, 03:07 PM
I was never really a shotty player. Still not, but just recently getting into PvP, I've found myself trying out weapons I haven't used, like bug guns and shotguns, since mastering them. LOL
PvP brings out the worst in us, I know.

Psycroww
10-14-2014, 03:24 PM
Should I add the part about using AR is bad and AR are horrible weapons in general?

Pier, we all know how much you "love" ARs and will provide a list of their "potential" along with how "great" they are :)

Mr666
10-15-2014, 06:34 AM
I wasn't throwing the Zagger rant at you. I didn't want to derail the thread too much, so I tossed that in there. Also, I started a thread about how it seems Explosive weapons themselves need a boost instead of nerfing everything else. The scaling and nano systems really call for Explosives to either always crit or leave their owners wanting.Why not just use grenades and one explosive weapon with a nano? Like flash bang then use a big boomer then fire crimefighter.

SirServed
10-15-2014, 10:26 AM
Why not just use grenades and one explosive weapon with a nano? Like flash bang then use a big boomer then fire crimefighter.
The biggest problem is armor plates. Explosives don't always crit so you'd have to take the time to throw a Bio/Rad grenade at EVERYTHING you fight. You will run out of grenades before you run out of mobs.

satirized
10-15-2014, 02:48 PM
Why not just use grenades and one explosive weapon with a nano? Like flash bang then use a big boomer then fire crimefighter.

Why not use something else more effective? Instead of crappy explosive makeshift loadout.

Explosive needs a buff. ARs needs a buff. Shotgun needs a buff.

Z0mb13
10-15-2014, 03:24 PM
The point was not to name the number in my clan but the amount that come to the forums and its a crazy small amount to the amount who play the game. Also I'm bet you don't know over 100 people in your clan and having members is not the same as having active members and knowing what those members want. It was useless its a point or more of a loose fact.

Just a small fact, his guild has plenty of active members. And, as I have no dog in this fight (don't own a zagger, didn't spend lots of arkforge) I will emphasize again, I'm not even sure why this "balance" was necessary. If folks are claiming (post damage nerf) that zaggers are overpowered in PVP that's just not the case.

Mr666
10-15-2014, 03:56 PM
The biggest problem is armor plates. Explosives don't always crit so you'd have to take the time to throw a Bio/Rad grenade at EVERYTHING you fight. You will run out of grenades before you run out of mobs. I don't normally run out of grenades when fighting maybe 3 out of 5 arkfalls but it not long before I get more plus with spikes and stims its a good mix just got to know when to hold'em and when to throw'em.

Mr666
10-15-2014, 04:15 PM
Why not use something else more effective? Instead of crappy explosive makeshift loadout.

Explosive needs a buff. ARs needs a buff. Shotgun needs a buff.I think explosive need reworked but I don't know much of a buff they need if any. I don't seen where ARs need to be touched because it the mid ground between LMG and SMG. Plus its the most varied weapon out there and what I mean is there is about 5 or 6 types of VBI AR to get plus the heavy and burst versions of ARs too. Shotgun a mix of good and bad but alot of the bad ones have been taken out to be reworked. I don't feel weapons like the grind fagger, fagger, scatter, hvy scatter, sulgger, VBI shotgun need a buff but the auto-shotguns do but I believe they took most of them.

satirized
10-15-2014, 05:00 PM
I think explosive need reworked but I don't know much of a buff they need if any. I don't seen where ARs need to be touched because it the mid ground between LMG and SMG. Plus its the most varied weapon out there and what I mean is there is about 5 or 6 types of VBI AR to get plus the heavy and burst versions of ARs too. Shotgun a mix of good and bad but alot of the bad ones have been taken out to be reworked. I don't feel weapons like the grind fagger, fagger, scatter, hvy scatter, sulgger, VBI shotgun need a buff but the auto-shotguns do but I believe they took most of them.

Oh forget about LMG. That needs a buff too.


AR and LMG are not competitive against SMG.

Shotgun are not competitive against anything in PVE.

Explosive are super low dps and way too limited use.

Mr666
10-15-2014, 10:40 PM
Oh forget about LMG. That needs a buff too.


AR and LMG are not competitive against SMG.

Shotgun are not competitive against anything in PVE.

Explosive are super low dps and way too limited use.All weapons are not for every enemies or every places that is just basic. Even though explosives have low dps there is nothing that kill Motherlode or Dekuso faster than a VBI GL-1 Ground Pounder or nothing better for taking down Affected than a big boomer.

drackiller
10-16-2014, 05:11 AM
Don't think anyone mentioned the saw nerf or the original shotgun nerf that happened around the time the vehicles were nerfed. They aren't around anymore but I agree the firestorm and thundershock nerfs were poorly thought out.

But hey... It's their game after all.

I wonder why we don't have sling shots and cross bows. Seems like you would see those in the wasteland.

Yeah...it`s their game...

...but we play it only if we want it.
No will in the present state.

drackiller
10-16-2014, 05:13 AM
You're playing BS semantics trying to stick up for Trion and you know it...

Nailed it.

satirized
10-16-2014, 04:07 PM
All weapons are not for every enemies or every places that is just basic. Even though explosives have low dps there is nothing that kill Motherlode or Dekuso faster than a VBI GL-1 Ground Pounder or nothing better for taking down Affected than a big boomer.

Boss = clusterdrop.