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View Full Version : "Do all sawed-offs suck?" and Similar Queries for Other Seemingly Lousy Weapon Types



Feldune
12-10-2014, 11:40 AM
Hello and thanks for reading.

I've been going through what would seem like a torturous process to some, but one that I've found rather enjoyable — logging and rating the weapons I've had. In short, when I find or purchase a new piece, I give it a little test and see how it plays. Admittedly, and I must stress this, I conduct this with no scientific rigor. This is not a controlled experiment. I don't always use the same quality weapon. I don't use it on the same foes or foe type. I don't use them in the full spectrum of scenarios.

So, let's simply call it an "impression" and leave it at that.

Well, one of my conclusions from logging a decent number (though hardly all) of each weapon type is that sawed-off shotguns suck. This applies to every single one I've found. I don't recall any that could fire more than once a before a reload is required (granted, this is arguably the defining feature of the sawed-off...as should be a wide spread and short-range devastation). And that reload isn't fast. Damage for that one shot is, unsurprisingly, quite high, but often not enough to kill the enemy in a single strike...even when it's a pointblank headshot.

There are other weapons that can one-shot enemies...and from a greater distance. And there are plenty of others that can't one-shot, but have ample ammo to quickly dispatch foes and then move on to the next without that horrid reload delay.

Am I missing something here? Perhaps it's all about the weapon swap approach (i.e., keep the sawed-off holstered, use once when necessary and return it to holster...where perhaps a perk reloads it).

Let's move on to the next type in the cruddy weapon inquiry...bolt-action sniper rifles.

Now, unlike sawed-offs, I haven't found these to be terrible. I just haven't found one I'd choose over most (maybe all) semi-auto sniper offerings. From what I can tell, the bolt-action guns, in spite of the different names, are all plain vanilla. This is to say that they fire their single shot without embellishments. For example, I would have thought there'd be one you could charge up for greater damage or a larger spread (as you can with some semi-auto models), but if this is out there, I've yet to come across it.

My experience is that these do dish out respectable damage in their single shot — perhaps superior to some semi-auto models — and some reload and return to target speedily. Still, I can't see ever choosing one above a good semi-auto sniper option.

On to the next type in the cruddy weapon inquiry...pump-action shotguns.

Here I feel similarly to the bolt action sniper rifles. These aren't terrible weapons. They do nice damage and, in this case, there is variety...from a very wide spread to individual slugs/focused pellets with decent range. But a slow reload seems par for the course here (makes sense when you're dealing with one shell at a time). And with fairly limited magazines of around 10 or so shots and a slower (though not atrocious) semi-auto firing speed, they just can't seem to keep up with their automatic, burst-fire, or at least single-ammo-clip combat shotgun counterparts. I'll admit that I haven't done a more thorough damage analysis here, so maybe this is where the pump guns distinguish themselves and make up for their shortcomings.

Honorable mention: Infectors.

In other games, I'm a big fan of DOT effects, so I want to like Defiance's infectors. But, in spite of trying quite a few, I've been unimpressed by this gun type. Many times, I've shot at least half a clip into the head of foe and departed...figuring he was just a few heartbeats from death only to find him still pursuing me not especially worse for wear. I've watched the bugs spawn from multiple infections only to be treated as a minor nuisance.

In the end, sure, I can kill a foe if I empty my infector's entire clip into him and wait, but, sadly, many of the game's other guns would have ended him for sooner with less muss and fuss (and more ammo efficiently to boot). I did witness one clearly high-level player absolutely laying waste with his infector, but my experience thus far has proved them undeserving of a place in my loadouts.

I'll finally mention that, while I just think they're cool, my personal jury is still out on pistols. They can be very accurate, speedy to reload and offer a variety of modes from semi-auto to burst to full auto and, entertainingly, chargeable. But, cool factor aside, I'm not sure I can see favoring one over, say, a good, versatile assault rifle or perhaps slug-firing combat shotgun.

So, here is my plea, because I like options and really want every weapon category to have its place and purpose: tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I've missed some crucial factor or tactic that makes the sawed-off (or any of the others) positively shine.

Thanks,

Feldune

squidgod2000
12-10-2014, 11:51 AM
Most of what you listed is junk in PvE and must-use in PvP.

Mister Derpenhowser
12-10-2014, 11:59 AM
Actually I just got a VBI SO-2 Courier from an elite lockbox with white blue and orange reload rolls so its reload is pretty decent (0.9) and I haven't even put an oj reload mod on it yet! It shoots the timed grenades and does 23521 dmg. I'm happy with it xD

*edit* the purple roll is +15% dmg on next grenade after a kill.... will this count with shots fired or just grenades thrown?..

PTR47
12-10-2014, 12:19 PM
Pretty sure just grenades.

Infectors maybe need a little bump, but the invader and canker variants remain popular.

Pump Action shotguns are very popular in PvP. Slugger, Fragger, Grid Fragger, Zagger all are or have been popular.

Pistols -- Wolfhound/Wildcat is one of the best guns in the game. blaster/KLOC EVO also makes a good SMG substitute.

Sawed-off and Bolt Action Snipers I agree. I haven't touched a sawed off since I finished my persuit for them, and I still have less than 50% of my BAS kills for the persuit -- despite being 5700+ Ego and playing the same character for a year and a half. Sometimes I go snipe at ERC but I really feel you should get these kills because you want to use the gun.

Bigbearbear
12-10-2014, 03:28 PM
You're using them wrongly. The sawed-off for example, if you try to use it like an assault rifle, obviously it won't work. The VBI Courier-2 sawed off shotgun is one of my favorite weapon and I wielded it all the way to skill 20. Its so much fun when you lob a shell from a distance away and see it land on the face of an enemy.

The bolt-action is another example, you can't just run and gun with it. You're a sniper, a highly skilled specialist who stalks the battlefield, delivering strategic critical hits to targets. You'll need to find good sniping locations and take out the targets carefully. Another one of my favorite weapon. I frequently top the chart with it when doing Volge sieges, those slow moving giants who like to stand and shoot back are just begging to be head-shot.

Pump action shotgun, how can you hate something so awesome? Run up to the enemy and shoot them in the face, then laugh yourself silly when they fly off (humanoid targets). I had so much fun with this weapon type.

What you need to do, is to find the combination of EGO skill and shooting style to suit your needs when you use certain weapons. They are very rewarding when you figure out how to use them correctly. Remember to take the EGO skill, shooting style, locations and enemy type into consideration. Also remember you have different loadouts which let you switch easily.

Quebra Regra
12-10-2014, 03:30 PM
Actually I just got a VBI SO-2 Courier from an elite lockbox with white blue and orange reload rolls so its reload is pretty decent (0.9) and I haven't even put an oj reload mod on it yet! It shoots the timed grenades and does 23521 dmg. I'm happy with it xD

*edit* the purple roll is +15% dmg on next grenade after a kill.... will this count with shots fired or just grenades thrown?..

That's actually a nice courier! No, the shots do not count as grenades.. shame about that roll.

As a side note, it's a great weapon to use to get your sawed off mastery completed. Combine it with some of the explosive perks for some real fun.

Quebra Regra
12-10-2014, 03:32 PM
You're using them wrongly. The sawed-off for example, if you try to use it like an assault rifle, obviously it won't work. The VBI Courier-2 sawed off shotgun is one of my favorite weapon and I wielded it all the way to skill 20. Its so much fun when you lob a shell from a distance away and see it land on the face of an enemy.

The bolt-action is another example, you can't just run and gun with it. You're a sniper, a highly skilled specialist who stalks the battlefield, delivering strategic critical hits to targets. You'll need to find good sniping locations and take out the targets carefully. Another one of my favorite weapon. I frequently top the chart with it when doing Volge sieges, those slow moving giants who like to stand and shoot back are just begging to be head-shot.

Pump action shotgun, how can you hate something so awesome? Run up to the enemy and shoot them in the face, then laugh yourself silly when they fly off (humanoid targets). I had so much fun with this weapon type.

What you need to do, is to find the combination of EGO skill and shooting style to suit your needs when you use certain weapons. They are very rewarding when you figure out how to use them correctly. Remember to take the EGO skill, shooting style, locations and enemy type into consideration. Also remember you have different loadouts which let you switch easily.

Most of the true pump actions I have run across are ****e, despite how good the card dmg, etc. looks. Most fire too slowly for my tastes. On the other hand the GRINDFRAGGER is king of the shoties IMHO! Get some fire rate rolls and go to town.

ITPalg
12-11-2014, 02:48 AM
The radiation plate slicer bolt sniper I have does great damage.

I find the semi-auto types don't always do good enough damage, actually requiring the use of multiple shots (double tap guns or not) just to get the one-shot done this gun I have does.

I have an orange courier I have tried a bit, but why call it a shotgun when it really is a grenade launcher, I dunno.

I have an orange sawed-off type, name I can't remember, that fires two slugs at once and requires a reload each time. I am just using it right now to see what the mastery will be. I consider it like a backup weapon for now.

I also have an orange plate slicer canker I use with my slicer radiation purple smg loadout. I can infect up to stage 3, then if not dead, wait for the reload, toss a grenade for the mastery boost, or pull out the smg to finish off.

Mister Derpenhowser
12-11-2014, 03:05 AM
Thanks for replies, is a shame about that roll but the others make up for it :)

Mosiah TheSAVAGE
12-11-2014, 08:21 AM
Sawed Off-Zagger(fast reload even with nerf I like it. I have a Zagger for sale if you wanna hmu)
Pistol-Wildcat(Never used personally but heard it was good for crits and has an overcharge chance on a full reload)
Bolt Action-Wishbone Splitter(Thanksgiving event sniper. Looks very nice, bolts quickly and has 2x crit)
Pump Action Shotguns-Idk(I use to use pump action 10-500 ego but after a while Inhaed running around reloading one bullet at a time forever. I do hear good things about Sluggers though)

Feldune
12-11-2014, 09:11 AM
Thanks for all the replies, guys. I'm glad that some of you stood up for these weapon types as, I'll repeat here, I really want each to excel in its own area and to like them.

Speaking of which... Funny enough, yesterday I acquired not one, not two, but three pump-action shottys that I thoroughly enjoyed: the VOT Fragger (two-shot burst), the VOT Grind Fragger (full auto) and the VBI Shotgun (semi-auto). It certainly didn't hurt that all had expanded magazines (18, 13 and 11 rounds, respectively), and the Fragger was bio while the Grind Fragger was radiation.

I did some testing, and while it was a tough choice, I picked the VOT Fragger in the end. Its especially large magazine and bio damage (which I generally favor) won me over. In many cases a single trigger pull (one two-shot burst) was enough to end foes. And it tore up hardier opponents. The single detractor for me is that there is pronounced recoil after the first shot that causes the second to fire high — I modded to gun to curb this as much as possible, but it wasn't possible for me to eliminate it. You can easily hit even small enemies with both shots, but getting twin headshots is hard or impossible. That said, I really like the spread on this gun...not too big or too small. You can readily land all the shot on a single foe, but hitting closely grouped multiples is also possible.

The same was true of the VBI Shotgun, which may have a bit more range than the others, but the smaller magazine and semi-auto put it in third place. Still, it's an extremely solid-and-precise feeling gun that was fun to use.

The VOT Grind Fragger is great, and it was a close contest between it and the VOT Fragger. Full auto is always fantastic, but its spread, especially shooting from the hip, is larger, which I don't love. That said, I experienced very little recoil in full auto.

Moving on... Again, funny enough, I also found a bolt action sniper that I kept, an FRC Bolt Action Repeater. Now, first off, this gun was a purple with really nice crit bonuses (including 25% reload of stored weapon on crit or kill, can't recall which), and this made a significant difference. And I did compare it to the VBI SS-2 Ranger (semi-auto with two-shot burst) that I've owned multiple times at different EGO levels because I like it so much, and it was a really tough call. In truth, the VBI is probably the better gun, with a much bigger magazine and a sight that keeps the foe in view after firing, but I just felt like trying out an effective bolt action (given my criticism of them). Plus, I need to advance my bolt action skill. The FRC I found does nothing special (small mag, not especially quick reloads, goes off target after every shot) except score big headshot criticals (and the stowed weapon reload, but that's not an inherent function of the model). But, arguably, this is the most important feature of a sniper rifle. And, coincidentally — since Bigbearbear mentioned Volge sieges — I happened to use it in one (prior to reading his comment) and was thrilled by the big crits I was nailing off the bald domes (30k-50k range).

I'll have to try one of those VBI Courier-2s; I've certainly seen my fair share of them. They may be great, but they also don't sound representative of sawed-offs on the whole...more like grenade launchers, as ITPalg said.

I also tried a few of the "big gun" pistols last night: FRC's Bull Rush .45 and Magnum. The Bull Rush worked as promised, with its novel knockdown power, but I didn't enjoy using it at all. I found targeting on the finicky side. But I can see the knockdown having its uses, especially against foes like the afflicted (and if combined with the Intimidation perk). The Magnum was okay. Damage was quite nice, but it's also slow firing and has a small magazine. I'd be tempted to put a scope on it and use it as a sniper pistol, except I found damage falloff to be significant. So, no luck there.

I'm going to look to try PTR47's pistol recommendations: the Wolfhound/Wildcat and the blaster/KLOC EVO. I know I've used the Wolfhound and found it quite a solid little piece — I just didn't feel that it excelled in any area. I've also used the VOT Blaster and found the same. But I'll give them some more time.

Thanks again,

Feldune

Azimov
12-11-2014, 09:32 AM
I have three pistols I keep, a Wolfhound with no nano for pure crit damage against warhamsters (tm), a flare pistol that has bio nano and plate slicer (hard to target with at a distance but murder close up with fire and armor damage) and a Kloc with syphon which is rapid fire kick *** against low armor targets.

Now I just wish I had a blunderbuss skinned shotgun to go with my pilgrim hat! ;)

Bigbearbear
12-11-2014, 10:21 AM
For pistols, I like the Volge Thunderer. They're a little weird and takes a little getting used to because the explosive energy bolts are slow traveling but will track the target a little bit. They are VERY hard hitting though, almost like a handgun version of a bolt action sniper rifle, but uses a semi-auto action.

Tex_Arcana
12-11-2014, 10:39 AM
For pistols, I like the Volge Thunderer. They're a little weird and takes a little getting used to because the explosive energy bolts are slow traveling but will track the target a little bit. They are VERY hard hitting though, almost like a handgun version of a bolt action sniper rifle, but uses a semi-auto action.
THIS.
I have a Thunderer with Assassin and Bio (can't remember the rolls on it and I'm at work so can't check) on it: LOVE it.
The one thing of note with the Thunderer is it is an AOE explosion: Do NOT let anything you're shooting jump at you or else your shields will be GONE.
Note the Thunderer is a Cold-Fire weapon that will make shields disappear faster than most other weapon types. Couple that with a Bio effect and argggggg...
I have used it in large groups and on one hand enjoyed watching the AOE kill everything; and then on the other hand wondered why I went down so fast only to realise the AOE and Bio effect had stripped my plates away.
Anyway: It's in my Volge Killer loadout and puts Ark Viscera down. :)

Fubashi
12-11-2014, 12:01 PM
I have 2 builds I usually keep a pump shottie on. My bio build is a bio casti springer and a bio casti sweeper. Love the sweeper! Modded it to have more rounds and it is a go to wep. I just swap back and forth. I have a similar rad build where I use a Volge Breacher. A plus is 10% health regen on reload. Has saved me many a time. Modded for less recoil and more mag capacity. T4 mods do wonders for the recoil. I pulled a syphon Grind fragger with the recent NFH event and must say, it is quite impressive. I have been pairing it with my Hellfire Pulser. A potent combo with very high survivability.

My WM build is the only one I consistently use a pistol for, my wolfhound, usually with a Rad Thunder. I swap as necessary depending upon what is happening in the battle.

I agree with you on the sawed off's. I don't PVP so I really have no use for them. I used a courier and afflicted sieges to lvl the skill and then put them away.

For bolt action the 7th Legion Inagaki is probably my favorite. Still grinding the horrible 5k kills and then will probably put that away as well as i prefer semi auto snipers.

I do swap others in and out on occasion but they are situational.

PTR47
12-11-2014, 12:45 PM
I know I've used the Wolfhound and found it quite a solid little piece — I just didn't feel that it excelled in any area. I've also used the VOT Blaster and found the same. But I'll give them some more time.

Try the Wolfhound especially against targets that you always crit (eg. Arkfall bosses).

Quebra Regra
12-11-2014, 12:51 PM
The BULLRUSH had huge potential, but it only procs ONCE per-enemy period. :(

This needs to be fixed.

PTR47
12-11-2014, 01:00 PM
You're using them wrongly. The sawed-off for example, if you try to use it like an assault rifle, obviously it won't work. The VBI Courier-2 sawed off shotgun is one of my favorite weapon and I wielded it all the way to skill 20. Its so much fun when you lob a shell from a distance away and see it land on the face of an enemy.

The bolt-action is another example, you can't just run and gun with it. You're a sniper, a highly skilled specialist who stalks the battlefield, delivering strategic critical hits to targets. You'll need to find good sniping locations and take out the targets carefully. Another one of my favorite weapon. I frequently top the chart with it when doing Volge sieges, those slow moving giants who like to stand and shoot back are just begging to be head-shot.

I think I know how to use the guns, tyvm.

The semi-auto snipers are far superior to the bolt-actions, and the only sawed off you've listed as being good is a grenade launcher -- use a grenade launcher.

Dixie Cougar
12-11-2014, 01:07 PM
I prefer bolt guns to semi-autos as a matter of playstyle but when it comes to balance the semi-autos clearly have the edge. Bolt guns need a PvE oriented buff. For instance, is there a way to make them stay scoped between shots but only in PvE?

On a humorous note, I suppose unscoping after every shot is realistic since every bolt gun in Defiance seems to be left handed and every character is right handed. It's kinda hard to work a bolt action with your weak hand while maintaining eye relief since that's the weak hand is usually the one that usually grips the weapon's balance point.

PTR47
12-11-2014, 01:18 PM
I'd be happy if they just evened out the size of the hit box on the BAs with the SAs. The hit box is much larger with Semi-Autos, and hip firing is possible. Hell the Volge BA won't even hit the target when you're scoped in.

Dixie Cougar
12-11-2014, 01:29 PM
I'd be happy if they just evened out the size of the hit box on the BAs with the SAs. The hit box is much larger with Semi-Autos, and hip firing is possible. Hell the Volge BA won't even hit the target when you're scoped in.

Is it really the hitbox? I thought the main difference was the inherent spread when not scoped in (with semiautos having a tighter crosshair). I don't have any more difficulty landing headshots with a BA when scoped. Hip fire with a BA, fugeddaboudit.

And yeah volge guns are kinda borked. My go-tos are all VBI or FRC snipers--SS2 or bolt repeater.

Bigbearbear
12-11-2014, 01:52 PM
I think I know how to use the guns, tyvm.

The semi-auto snipers are far superior to the bolt-actions, and the only sawed off you've listed as being good is a grenade launcher -- use a grenade launcher.

With a statement like that, I think you're far from knowing how to use them correctly. A bolt-action isn't inferior to the semi-auto sniper rifle, it just require you to use it differently. Not that there's anything wrong with preferring a semi-auto over a bolt action, but to state that the bolt action is inferior just because you don't know how to use it is misleading.

And yes, I've only listed 1 sawed-off but that's because its the one I like most, I'm still leveling the rest of my weapon skills so once I hit level 20 for sawed off I started using other types, but I'll revisit this weapon class once I've done with the rest. Anyway, the Courier is still a sawed-off shotgun as far as the game is concerned, and unlike the grenade launchers in the game (Detonators), the mechanics are very different, you'll have to adapt to the need to reload frequently, but take advantage of having 250 shells in your ammo cache.

The game has a wide variety of weapon class and within each class has a large number of models to select from. If something doesn't work for you, it doesn't automatically means it is not good. In the hands of another skilled player who can adapt to it, or one that is lucky enough to get a good one and the mods to go with it, it can be a very deadly weapon.

I think it is also part of the fun of this game, figuring how to best to adapt to each weapon and how best to use them.

KingNephilim
12-11-2014, 01:55 PM
I feel very much the same way you do OP about most of the mentioned weapons.
The sawed of shotguns I find atrocious for the most part. I was lucky to find a courier & level it to 10 during the Hulker Hell event to complete my "Boomstick to the face" pursuits, as it would have been unbearable for me to even attempt it with any other subtypes of this weapon class.
I never thought much of the bolt action sniper rifles before recently, as I had only ever used semi-autos. I eventually got an oj vbi derailer from a faction lockbox which I've been using to get to my 5000 kills for the "Snipe from the Shadows" pursuit. The shots are strong, most enemies I can one shot kill, the reload isn't slow, & I usually kill while on the move, so the unscoping after each shot helps me keep my bearings between kills.
I haven't delved too much into pump action shotguns, as I have always preferred combat shotguns over them. But I do hope to familiarize myself soon, as I intend to eventually max level all of the weapon types.
Infectors are just... bleh. Nothing great or terrible to say about them.
Pistols are usually my favourite in any game, defiance is no exception. They're simple, neat, reliable, efficient... & they always get the job done. It's a gentleman's weapon. Nothing is cooler than shooting one bullet from a pistol & downing an enemy with a headshot.
*shrug* ...that's just what I think anyway.

Bigbearbear
12-11-2014, 01:58 PM
Is it really the hitbox? I thought the main difference was the inherent spread when not scoped in (with semiautos having a tighter crosshair). I don't have any more difficulty landing headshots with a BA when scoped. Hip fire with a BA, fugeddaboudit.

And yeah volge guns are kinda borked. My go-tos are all VBI or FRC snipers--SS2 or bolt repeater.

Yup, that's the spread of the gun. Bolt-action sniper rifles are meant to be used with the scope, otherwise you'll find yourself missing a Hulker standing in front of you when firing from the hip. :)

The Volge Lighting Rifle (bolt action sniper rifle) is a curious one, if you charge it up and land a head shot on a Volge with full shields, it is very impressive. I tried it once and got something like 140k of dmg with that one shot.

Ryker Vorton
12-11-2014, 02:00 PM
I kind of like the Courier, can even be fun to play with it, as for the rest of sawed offs, go away with them :p

I find something funny with sniper rifles, and basically is that whoever designed them for the game clearly never used them. In real weapons (i've shot one of these babies for the first time when i joined the voluntary service about 26 years ago and i still do it from time to time) damage wise, it is hard to find a noticieable difference, at least at such short range as in the game at which the difference could be probably less than 0.00001%. I believe, at more realistic sniping range, and i am speaking of around 300+ meter, that difference would still be neglectable, considering both rifles of same caliber/barrel lenght and other things that doesn't need to be mentioned here.

But then again, the game shows the opposite relation between bolter/semiauto when we go about bloom... in-game bolters has insanely high bloom (while they are the most precise handheld weapons in existence) while the semiauto in the game has much better bloom (this is due to the effect of moving parts versus no moving parts at all)

As for recoil, oh well, the game has the sniper rifles based on WWII models, the recoil on modern sniper rifles is pretty much a joke (my 50cal kicks less than my .308, much less than it i must say) and real bolters and semiautos has pretty similar recoil (thanks to the current muzzle systems).

Lastly, and i apologize for letting the topic carry me away, high caliber sniper rifles are one hit weapons, no matter where in the target body they would impact, the shockwave of the very same impact liquifies tissue and organs, i've known of casualties due to 50's where the target were hit on the arm or a leg and it not only amputated the limb but the impact shock killed the person and not even using fragmentation ordinance) Even if the target wears a bullet proof vest, just the impact itself (14~18 kilojoules), without penetration, would crush bones and organs in a horrible way. Oh yes, they are truly lethal.

Maybe the in-game sniper rifles are just .22 magnum caliber and that would explain their poor performance lol

KingNephilim
12-11-2014, 02:00 PM
Yup, that's the spread of the gun. Bolt-action sniper rifles are meant to be used with the scope, otherwise you'll find yourself missing a Hulker standing in front of you when firing from the hip. :)

Ohhhh... now it all makes sense!

PTR47
12-11-2014, 02:09 PM
With a statement like that, I think you're far from knowing how to use them correctly. A bolt-action isn't inferior to the semi-auto sniper rifle, it just require you to use it differently. Not that there's anything wrong with preferring a semi-auto over a bolt action, but to state that the bolt action is inferior just because you don't know how to use it is misleading.

And yes, I've only listed 1 sawed-off but that's because its the one I like most, I'm still leveling the rest of my weapon skills so once I hit level 20 for sawed off I started using other types, but I'll revisit this weapon class once I've done with the rest. Anyway, the Courier is still a sawed-off shotgun as far as the game is concerned, and unlike the grenade launchers in the game (Detonators), the mechanics are very different, you'll have to adapt to the need to reload frequently, but take advantage of having 250 shells in your ammo cache.

The game has a wide variety of weapon class and within each class has a large number of models to select from. If something doesn't work for you, it doesn't automatically means it is not good. In the hands of another skilled player who can adapt to it, or one that is lucky enough to get a good one and the mods to go with it, it can be a very deadly weapon.

I think it is also part of the fun of this game, figuring how to best to adapt to each weapon and how best to use them.

Dude, I've played for over a year and a half. I was in the Beta.

You've been playing for a little over a month.

Maybe Bolt Actions are better before endgame. Dunno.

Dixie Cougar
12-11-2014, 02:31 PM
Yup, that's the spread of the gun. Bolt-action sniper rifles are meant to be used with the scope, otherwise you'll find yourself missing a Hulker standing in front of you when firing from the hip. :)

The Volge Lighting Rifle (bolt action sniper rifle) is a curious one, if you charge it up and land a head shot on a Volge with full shields, it is very impressive. I tried it once and got something like 140k of dmg with that one shot.

There is a known bug with that gun that results in a hit not registering at all at full charge.

Not sure why you feel the need to snipe (no pun intended) at other players' skills so much (the run and gun BA sniper is a strawman, come on) when simply disagreeing from your own experience will do. I got my 5k long ago and used ba rifles as a primary leveling up and even I agree with PTR that semiautos are statistically better in pve. I still use a bolt gun/cloak build when score is not a concern simply because it is fun. My ranger is harder to use but undoubtedly produces higher dps to the point of being viable in WM which is a non starter for bolt guns. Works better in expert coops to keep up with smg/cf rushers too.

Love my bolt gun but I think it deserves a soft buff like maintaining scope between shots at least in pve.

Bigbearbear
12-11-2014, 03:37 PM
Dude, I've played for over a year and a half. I was in the Beta.

You've been playing for a little over a month.

Maybe Bolt Actions are better before endgame. Dunno.

And what has that got to do with knowing how to use certain weapons? For the year and a half, you've never tried to figure out how to use a bolt action sniper rifle?

Bigbearbear
12-11-2014, 03:48 PM
There is a known bug with that gun that results in a hit not registering at all at full charge.

Not sure why you feel the need to snipe (no pun intended) at other players' skills so much (the run and gun BA sniper is a strawman, come on) when simply disagreeing from your own experience will do. I got my 5k long ago and used ba rifles as a primary leveling up and even I agree with PTR that semiautos are statistically better in pve. I still use a bolt gun/cloak build when score is not a concern simply because it is fun. My ranger is harder to use but undoubtedly produces higher dps to the point of being viable in WM which is a non starter for bolt guns. Works better in expert coops to keep up with smg/cf rushers too.

Love my bolt gun but I think it deserves a soft buff like maintaining scope between shots at least in pve.

I'm not sniping at their skill, but pointing out that just because you don't like or can't use a certain weapon effectively, it doesn't make it a bad weapon. There is nothing wrong if you prefer a semi-auto sniper rifle, it doesn't mean a bolt-action one won't work for others.

PTR47
12-11-2014, 03:52 PM
And what has that got to do with knowing how to use certain weapons? For the year and a half, you've never tried to figure out how to use a bolt action sniper rifle?

No. It means I have used it and I have a lot of context to put it into.

Dixie's right though... I'm thinking of the hitbox off the sb/splitshot is huge... That doesn't extend to the whole weapon class.

WanWhiteWolf
12-11-2014, 05:36 PM
I am sorry but bolt action VS semi auto snipers is not a fair comparison.

Semi auto snipers win. The have better DPS and you get bigger score (if anyone is still using snipers in pve).

For pvp , the only players who play with bolt action and do well, are those who got bored in owning the map with a semi-auto and they want to take the challenge.

As for the other weapons:

SAWED - They were decent with preparedness. You could take 2 SAWED and constant swap / shoot / swap shoot. Your DPS with high enough and you could take multiple targets in 2-3 shoots. Now, they have no use , except for bored people / those who need to level up.

Shotguns - Fragger / Sluggers are probably the best shotguns out there. They are not that popular in pve due to the broken scoring system. Since you don't get any points for damage, they are rarely a weapon picked as main for pve. But they are quite high on DPS (and thus the reason why most decent players in pvp have one)

Pistols : Wolfhound and Wildcat are the main weapon choice for War Master. This is mostly due to high critical hit, (and thus great DPS). The other types are mostly for enthusiasts but don't have the DPS to match a SMG.Nor the accuracy / mobility.

Infectors - I find them situational and thus never a good choice for me. Some types can be alright. Same for pvp. Canker and its derivatives are not uncommon.

Bolt action - No use in this game. And I do play with snipers.

DSW
12-11-2014, 09:30 PM
Shotguns - Fragger / Sluggers are probably the best shotguns out there. They are not that popular in pve due to the broken scoring system. Since you don't get any points for damage, they are rarely a weapon picked as main for pve. But they are quite high on DPS (and thus the reason why most decent players in pvp have one)


Bolt action - No use in this game. And I do play with snipers.

i play with Fraggers and get decent scores @ major events, also BA snipers can be good if its VOT Bolter derivatives, like wishbone or headshot ones. 1.4-1.6 rate and crits up to 5.4x (even higher if i slam T5 barrel in)

other BA snipers is for pure solo PvE encounters due to terrible fire rate.

WanWhiteWolf
12-12-2014, 01:02 AM
i play with Fraggers and get decent scores @ major events, also BA snipers can be good if its VOT Bolter derivatives, like wishbone or headshot ones. 1.4-1.6 rate and crits up to 5.4x (even higher if i slam T5 barrel in)

other BA snipers is for pure solo PvE encounters due to terrible fire rate.

Bolters can be alright. If you want to practice your aiming, bolters are the way to go. Bolt action, however, need a bit of boost in damage or crit.

As for fraggers, I also use one. But it's my secondary weapon. ( as in, I use it 20% of the shooting time). Any SMG will boost your score more than the fragger. If they bring back the damage based score, then that's a different story. I do agree that it's a powerfull weapon and it shouldn't be on a "what's with this useless weapon" thread.

Feldune
12-12-2014, 09:17 AM
I am sorry but bolt action VS semi auto snipers is not a fair comparison.

Semi auto snipers win. The have better DPS and you get bigger score (if anyone is still using snipers in pve).

For pvp , the only players who play with bolt action and do well, are those who got bored in owning the map with a semi-auto and they want to take the challenge.

As for the other weapons:

SAWED - They were decent with preparedness. You could take 2 SAWED and constant swap / shoot / swap shoot. Your DPS with high enough and you could take multiple targets in 2-3 shoots. Now, they have no use , except for bored people / those who need to level up.

Shotguns - Fragger / Sluggers are probably the best shotguns out there. They are not that popular in pve due to the broken scoring system. Since you don't get any points for damage, they are rarely a weapon picked as main for pve. But they are quite high on DPS (and thus the reason why most decent players in pvp have one)

Pistols : Wolfhound and Wildcat are the main weapon choice for War Master. This is mostly due to high critical hit, (and thus great DPS). The other types are mostly for enthusiasts but don't have the DPS to match a SMG.Nor the accuracy / mobility.

Infectors - I find them situational and thus never a good choice for me. Some types can be alright. Same for pvp. Canker and its derivatives are not uncommon.

Bolt action - No use in this game. And I do play with snipers.

Thread starter here. Brilliant post. Thank you.

Regarding your later comment that pump shotguns do not belong in a "What's with this useless weapon thread," I agree (as I wrote in a follow-up post). Shortly after starting the thread I acquired not one but three pump shotguns that were potent and fun to use. I held on to one of them a VOT Fragger (not the Grind variety, so a two-shot burst model) with bio and a significantly larger ammo clip and I don't think I've mastered a gun faster. I used it last night in a large incursion and ended up ranked third, my highest place yet (though I understand from your post that damage does not currently factor properly into rank).

Regardless, it's a brilliant gun. And, along with the other examples I found, I consider the pump shotgun category thoroughly redeemed and legit. Plus, I always wanted to like them. They're just cool.

Sawed-offs have not won me over in the same way.

I am using a bolt action now to raise the skill and more thoroughly test performance. As I wrote previously, the damage (crit especially) on this particular "purple" FRC Bolt Action Repeater is very nice and I am getting one-headshot kills regularly. But there are multiple semi-auto sniper models that would have done the same in all or very nearly all of these instances. And they would have done it with more ammo to spare (this gun's clip is a measly seven), faster reload times, and, most importantly, without your view going completely off-scope every time you fire. So you could get far more shots downrange and address misses much more effectively.

To my mind, the bolt action category is broken. To fix it, the guns should pretty much behave like .50 caliber sniper rifles are treated in many other games (though in reality these are semi-auto guns). They may be slow to fire and take you off-scope when you do, but they should hit like nothing else. The damage should justify the inconvenience/inefficiency. They should penetrate walls (not that I believe this is possible in Defiance). For variety, as they usually do, Defiance could offer models you can charge for additional damage, a wider "spread," more damage vs. vehicles (does anyone care?), etc. They might even consider given bolt action guns a significantly higher chance to proc nano effects (this could also potentially help sawed-offs).

You also at least implied a plug for SMGs. I must say that I love SMGs and am surprised to see them so infrequently in game. I've no idea why that is. Perhaps it's because it seems like everyone and their brother uses detonators (or similar) in co-op events. I'm thoroughly fed up with being blinded by their over-bright effects.

- Feldune

Mister Derpenhowser
12-13-2014, 02:56 AM
Finally got enough cores to pick up an oj reload mod for my Courier, dropped down to 0.5secs now! xD I think I like it more than my crash boomer, and I love that thing! Lol.

otonagamer
12-13-2014, 07:27 AM
yeah, bolt action sniper definitely needs buff. Even x5.4 crit bonus doesn't make up for it because fully charged Particle Ultimag deals over 200k crit damage. How about including target torso as critical spot? then it works like ones in other shooters, slow firing but confirmed one shot kill.

BTW, I use Volge Lightning Rifle as rocket launcher. Jump and fire it into the foot of enemy.

WanWhiteWolf
12-13-2014, 07:54 AM
yeah, bolt action sniper definitely needs buff. Even x5.4 crit bonus doesn't make up for it because fully charged Particle Ultimag deals over 200k crit damage. How about including target torso as critical spot? then it works like ones in other shooters, slow firing but confirmed one shot kill.

BTW, I use Volge Lightning Rifle as rocket launcher. Jump and fire it into the foot of enemy.

If you include torso as critical spot, pvp would be purely with snipers. One-shooting someone in the chest is overpowered. Currently you can 1 shoot with a sniper if you hit head or with a fully charged one. One requires skill, the other hinders your mobility.

To fix the bolt action, a 30-35% damage boost would do. You won't be able to 1 shoot someone on body shoot, but 2-3 would do. Considering its firerate, other sniper types could fight against that with no problems.

As for the scoring system: Damage gives you 0 points. You get points for:

- Every bullet that you land on an enemy (thus high fire rate weapons have the upperhand)
- Killing blow (last hit)
- Power kill (last hit when power is enabled)
- Armor break (available for bio weapons mostly)
- Healing / reviving others
- Multiple kills / streak

The high-end versions of SMG (hog leg / needler) have the highest non-crit DPS in the game. That said, they tick the above points (higher DPS increases the odds of you getting the last hit). Plus you have bonuses with ego/recharge that enables you to spam your ego power -> more points.

But let's take an example: A Vishera pops up (badass volge). Someone throws a bio grenade, and the shoots with , let's say an electrical slugger. He takes down his armor and his shield fast (electrical does extra damage to shield). Once the shield is down he uses a fire bolt action and hits for his head (fire does extra damage to health). When the Vishera is low on hp, I drop by, use overcharge and land a single bullet. I got 2 x , 3x more points then the guy who did all the work.

So that's the scoring system nowadays.

volger
12-13-2014, 11:29 AM
The only Bolt action I kinda like is VOT Bolter. http://en.defiance-wiki.com/wiki/VOT_Bolter
Got my 5k kills from that. Maybe you should try this one. But even though I enjoy it I can't use it anywhere but on low level mutants or raiders. Not in pvp(view disuption,slow/weak?), or pve too many enemies swarm me. Nice gun though,wish I could use it. I mostly use the Quick Repeater if I need a sniper.

And I thought pump shotguns sucked as well, since I never use them in any shooter. But I got my hands on a Grind fragger. Now it's my primary weapon. It's the only gun I use, even at sieges and other major events.

For infectors, use the invaders in pve, good to have bugs help you clearing the area if your alone.

Ryker Vorton
12-13-2014, 12:59 PM
What we need is to have, like in some other games, different PVP and PVE weapons and perks behavior so PVP wont ruin PVE anymore with their whims

Dixie Cougar
12-13-2014, 01:11 PM
What we need is to have, like in some other games, different PVP and PVE weapons and perks behavior so PVP wont ruin PVE anymore with their whims

Yeah this. If bolt guns got a damage buff and didn't unscope after each shot (the latter in PvE only) they'd be much better.

I can't stand VOT bolters, the extra rof is mostly wasted on me and the lower damage is too crippling. If I want one hit kills I use my FRC, if I want to shoot lots of lower damage bullets I use my Ranger.