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Harmil
08-08-2012, 07:49 AM
I think that Rift is probably the best MMO out there, to date, and that's why I'm playing it, and why I'm looking forward to Defiance (being Trion).

However, there are some lessons to be learned, and I hope Trion does.

First, the good:

Zone events are good. Automatic grouping is good. These keep leveling players engaged and break up the grind of leveling on quests.

Making zone events relevant to levelers and max-levels alike is a huge win.

Having currency at every level is an interesting idea. I'm not certain that it worked out well in Rift, other than for PvP gear, but it was still interesting and bears some further toying around.

Having lots of max-level content is not only good, but key. Leveling is the first thing people see, but max-level content is what keeps those players in the game. Any plan that involves, "we'll just add the max-level content once we land-grab the players," ignores how easily players can hit max level and quit the game (c.f. SWTOR)

Lots of choice is good. The soul system in Rift is phenomenal, and really does bear some form of continuation into Defiance.

The Bad:

Rift's raid gear itemization is horrible. You must begin planning out raids from the end. What gear do you expect every class and role to be wearing once they're done? How is easy class and role rewarded from this raid? These are questions you need to answer up-front. Itemization budgets should be clearly laid out and each items relationship to that budget should be clear to designers and players.

Class/Soul balance. Rift has far, far too many dead souls which have no real practical purpose once you hit max level. Necromancer is a great example from the mage tree. Design with an eye toward a player who enters the game, falls in love with a play style and then learns what the min/maxing looks like. Obviously perfect balance will never be achieved, but it should be closer than it is in Rift.

From other games:

EQ's mass group buff was a nice element in the social game. People gathered to share buffs with crowds in cities. It wasn't a major attribute of the game, but it made the game feel more like a community at times.

WoW still has the best addon system, mostly because their APIs are more robust than, for example, Rift. However, addons may be moot in a cross-platform game :-(

LotRO's wardrobe system was very, very nice. Not having to permanently lose an item to a wardrobe slot was a huge win.

Please, please do not have us turning in dozens of kinds of currency after every dungeon like DDO.

Kalbuir
08-09-2012, 04:38 AM
In my oppinion this thread is kinda lost without some context, some of the things you mention are not even going to be an issue in Defiance. For example there are no classes, there will be two type of currencies not 10+ like RIFT, devs have said they sure looked at RIFT for events but have made their own tweaks and interpretations to dynamic content.

WoW's API topic is a sour topic for a lot people out there for the things it got used (abused for) that doesn't make the API bad that (actually it makes it great as it proved you can do everything you want) but does complicated adding it to other games without a large group of players being scared about it. Since WoW a lot of game developers think twice about giving players that many tools at their disposal.

In my opinion the best API / Game Addon / Modding system to date that I have seen (while taking into account limiting the players a little bit) is the system EQ2 and Vanguard uses which is an XML based system. Both games were pretty poorly advertised in that regard and figuring out what everything did and especially the hidden more advanced features were never documentation properly. This was the biggest downfall of these addon systems. For me a addon should mostly be cosmetically but you should be able to change every single look and feel of the UI in the game with the actions and clicks that come with it.

What I rather not see though is actual automation but it's a fine line to walk because both potentially use API calls / XML format (whatever you want to use) that comes really close to each others boundaries. As I said a very fine line to walk.

While the things you mention are certainly good and bad things I agree with that, if I would make a post on this forum about the game I wouldn't name these things but instead other good things from maybe a bit less popular and forgotten games.

Kal's Crazy Unrealistic Wishlist:
- EVE / SWG Crafting System, making resource quality matter with a complex series of algorithms. Make crafting a game on its own again in the MMO market. Crafted goods should never require a specific resource (or rarely) instead it should be specific to its type. (example precious metal vs none precious metal). I liked hunting for days and days to search specific stats on resources and being able to play a game without actually playing the adventure part for a while but focusing on gathering and crafting instead. It enables players to switch things around when they get bored.

- Implement an harvesting system similar to SWG but without the obvious flaws and with todays technology. Add loads and loads of different resource types have players survey your world and have resource deposits degrade overtime spawning new ones in nearby areas. Don't script this, actually make this an algorithmic process which takes care of resource spawns in a semi random / dynamic way.

- Player driven content and events, give us the tools in-game and we will do the rest. it's not so hard. It really isn't in my opinion, it has been done before. I am talking about being able to put up a temporary tent in the game environment, put up fences to make an outdoor area for your event to take place. Not only does this add a ****load of possibilities for Roleplayers but it also gives players a basic set of tools to make the online world come to life for them. I for one miss planning guild meetings, board meetings and weddings in online games. Maybe I am a sucker but I know for a fact that a lot of people miss this, if there are enough people to make this a marketable thing I don't know.

The only real question on my mind is if player can handle the responsibility these days. For example if a game would actually implement a really custom system for quests this I'd be afraid to see "Hey bro, get me some teletubby corpes" and that is leaving out the offensive stuff that pop in my mind.... Obviously this is a big problem and would need some pretty creative problem solving, still I wish it was attempted in todays gaming industry.

- Housing has been a forgotten feature in today's MMO, most likely because it was proven that it costs to many resources to do right and people who would play a game for that being better of with "The Sims". I agree with this partly yet player housing, player cities and players having a impact on the landscape of the game is something that I miss.

Seeing your neighbor build his house from scratch over the course of a week, running into him and having a chat for example was very enjoyable back in Vanguard. Mapping out a playercity in SWG or seeing it be build impromptu in SWG was an amazing experience. Personally am not a fan of instanced housing but understand the need for it these days, easier to implement and manage, and most importantly you can supply everyone in your community if needed.

- Player run shops, I am weird and I enjoy micromanagement. I enjoyed having my own little shot and keeping it stocked in SWG. Having it in your own house would be even better but even if just at a specific terminal in the world it would still achieve the same effect. It wouldn't work in todays MMO were people are spoiled with world wide brokers, but I think communities need to promoted more to interact with each other. For example I used to idle in my own shop waiting for player to arrive, I would help them instead of them using my terminals and make them a special price. Benefits: 1. I am enjoying myself with my own generated content. 2. I interact with other players making the world feel more alive.

Now this is another topic that I don't think would go well in today's MMO market, maybe a middle ground would be possible where broker fees would be eliminated if you'd travel to the actual shops. Or add shipping fees (lol).

- None combat orientated interactions such as social professions, medical professions which impact the game on a different level and promoted interaction between players.

This thread is getting out of hand though so I'll wrap this up, I'll be the first to admit that this post was written out of nostalgia and many of these things (if not all) would be totally out of place or impossible to implement right in defiance. I do feel however that there is a market (even if for a small budget MMO) for these type of features. My generation that played Anarchy or EQ1 at age 14 is getting old and we want a more sandbox, hardcore, less forgiving, more social experience out of our games these days and it's really hard to get that out of games like WoW, RIFT, GW2, SWTOR, TERA, AION etc. etc. etc. While many of us still enjoy ourselves in these games and gladly pay for them each year. I personally would rather go back to paying a subscription 4 years and seeing a game grow and develop. It just feels to me like what you have at launch these days will pretty much be it with more content but no groundbreaking process and "EPIC" features.

/shuts up for real now *mumbles onward*

Arkamenitas
08-11-2012, 10:17 PM
start with 2 M's on a platter, then Stir in an O. Ensure ingredients are thoroughly mixed before baking at precisely 1337 degrees for precisely two hours 30 minutes and one second. Next, act out the reference i just made (if you can see what i did there - it's rather disguised).

And you're done!

EDIT: +10 internets to the person who first finds the reference.

marshy
06-01-2013, 05:28 PM
Attract a good fan base

Lupis Volk
06-01-2013, 05:31 PM
Attract a good fan base

have people support the game and not try to kill it would also be nice marshy.

i like the player made events idea.

Kleptobrainiac
06-01-2013, 05:32 PM
Nice necro.

marshy
06-01-2013, 05:34 PM
have people support the game and not try to kill it would also be nice marshy.

i like the player made events idea.

I do support the game just not always positive.

Lupis Volk
06-01-2013, 05:35 PM
In my oppinion this thread is kinda lost without some context, some of the things you mention are not even going to be an issue in Defiance. For example there are no classes, there will be two type of currencies not 10+ like RIFT, devs have said they sure looked at RIFT for events but have made their own tweaks and interpretations to dynamic content.

WoW's API topic is a sour topic for a lot people out there for the things it got used (abused for) that doesn't make the API bad that (actually it makes it great as it proved you can do everything you want) but does complicated adding it to other games without a large group of players being scared about it. Since WoW a lot of game developers think twice about giving players that many tools at their disposal.

In my opinion the best API / Game Addon / Modding system to date that I have seen (while taking into account limiting the players a little bit) is the system EQ2 and Vanguard uses which is an XML based system. Both games were pretty poorly advertised in that regard and figuring out what everything did and especially the hidden more advanced features were never documentation properly. This was the biggest downfall of these addon systems. For me a addon should mostly be cosmetically but you should be able to change every single look and feel of the UI in the game with the actions and clicks that come with it.

What I rather not see though is actual automation but it's a fine line to walk because both potentially use API calls / XML format (whatever you want to use) that comes really close to each others boundaries. As I said a very fine line to walk.

While the things you mention are certainly good and bad things I agree with that, if I would make a post on this forum about the game I wouldn't name these things but instead other good things from maybe a bit less popular and forgotten games.

Kal's Crazy Unrealistic Wishlist:
- EVE / SWG Crafting System, making resource quality matter with a complex series of algorithms. Make crafting a game on its own again in the MMO market. Crafted goods should never require a specific resource (or rarely) instead it should be specific to its type. (example precious metal vs none precious metal). I liked hunting for days and days to search specific stats on resources and being able to play a game without actually playing the adventure part for a while but focusing on gathering and crafting instead. It enables players to switch things around when they get bored.

- Implement an harvesting system similar to SWG but without the obvious flaws and with todays technology. Add loads and loads of different resource types have players survey your world and have resource deposits degrade overtime spawning new ones in nearby areas. Don't script this, actually make this an algorithmic process which takes care of resource spawns in a semi random / dynamic way.

- Player driven content and events, give us the tools in-game and we will do the rest. it's not so hard. It really isn't in my opinion, it has been done before. I am talking about being able to put up a temporary tent in the game environment, put up fences to make an outdoor area for your event to take place. Not only does this add a ****load of possibilities for Roleplayers but it also gives players a basic set of tools to make the online world come to life for them. I for one miss planning guild meetings, board meetings and weddings in online games. Maybe I am a sucker but I know for a fact that a lot of people miss this, if there are enough people to make this a marketable thing I don't know.

The only real question on my mind is if player can handle the responsibility these days. For example if a game would actually implement a really custom system for quests this I'd be afraid to see "Hey bro, get me some teletubby corpes" and that is leaving out the offensive stuff that pop in my mind.... Obviously this is a big problem and would need some pretty creative problem solving, still I wish it was attempted in todays gaming industry.

- Housing has been a forgotten feature in today's MMO, most likely because it was proven that it costs to many resources to do right and people who would play a game for that being better of with "The Sims". I agree with this partly yet player housing, player cities and players having a impact on the landscape of the game is something that I miss.

Seeing your neighbor build his house from scratch over the course of a week, running into him and having a chat for example was very enjoyable back in Vanguard. Mapping out a playercity in SWG or seeing it be build impromptu in SWG was an amazing experience. Personally am not a fan of instanced housing but understand the need for it these days, easier to implement and manage, and most importantly you can supply everyone in your community if needed.

- Player run shops, I am weird and I enjoy micromanagement. I enjoyed having my own little shot and keeping it stocked in SWG. Having it in your own house would be even better but even if just at a specific terminal in the world it would still achieve the same effect. It wouldn't work in todays MMO were people are spoiled with world wide brokers, but I think communities need to promoted more to interact with each other. For example I used to idle in my own shop waiting for player to arrive, I would help them instead of them using my terminals and make them a special price. Benefits: 1. I am enjoying myself with my own generated content. 2. I interact with other players making the world feel more alive.

Now this is another topic that I don't think would go well in today's MMO market, maybe a middle ground would be possible where broker fees would be eliminated if you'd travel to the actual shops. Or add shipping fees (lol).

- None combat orientated interactions such as social professions, medical professions which impact the game on a different level and promoted interaction between players.

This thread is getting out of hand though so I'll wrap this up, I'll be the first to admit that this post was written out of nostalgia and many of these things (if not all) would be totally out of place or impossible to implement right in defiance. I do feel however that there is a market (even if for a small budget MMO) for these type of features. My generation that played Anarchy or EQ1 at age 14 is getting old and we want a more sandbox, hardcore, less forgiving, more social experience out of our games these days and it's really hard to get that out of games like WoW, RIFT, GW2, SWTOR, TERA, AION etc. etc. etc. While many of us still enjoy ourselves in these games and gladly pay for them each year. I personally would rather go back to paying a subscription 4 years and seeing a game grow and develop. It just feels to me like what you have at launch these days will pretty much be it with more content but no groundbreaking process and "EPIC" features.

/shuts up for real now *mumbles onward*

so much text. but i agree with it. in minecraft i use to go around and sell items to all the shops on the server i was on. one shop owner would pay me more because i'd sell him the items he was out of.

Daholic
06-01-2013, 05:50 PM
Also I would like to add...

Forever be rid of lock boxes. Its already bad enough that loot from said boxes are random as all get out, but they simplified the cause by saying..

"Hey, I wont let you gear grind in a dungeon, with your friend, in an attempt to get gear from a boss with a loot table. Nah..thats to complicated for the simplistic players..why not make world events where you battle with all other players for keys codes. Then take those keys and buy boxes and maybe, just maybe, you may get the weapon you want"

Every good MMO should have disparity! Competition breeds to be better than the next guy, to be able to do thing the next guy cant, to be able to show for your hard work and dedication. The whole balance and fair idea in MMO's are a hindrance, and breeds laziness. Making Joe Blow with 2hrs of game play able to run the same content as Cecil Sam Mcgilicutty with 200hrs. Defiance should be more focused on PVE, that's were the bread and butter should be.

What we have now is a group of fearful players going out of their way to lend a helping hand to keep moral high so no one gets frustrated and lose interest.

These are just a few things that help make an MMO worthy of the next 1000hrs of gameplay so to be better than the next guy in an ever changing game world.

Epyon
06-01-2013, 06:07 PM
If this aint a necro....shts almost a year old...trolls will be trolls