PDA

View Full Version : Coming Change to Weapon Rarity Bonuses



Pages : [1] 2

Rashere
01-14-2015, 12:55 PM
Weapon rarity bonuses, also known as bonus rolls, are the additional, random bonuses that weapons get based on their rarity tier. As part of the effort to update itemization, I’ve made some fundamental changes to how these rarity bonuses work that I want to explain before they go to PTS.

An important note first: these changes are not retroactive. They only apply to new weapons created after the changes are in place. The new system is different enough that I didn’t think it fair to forcibly update existing weapons so, for better or worse, you’ll only see the changes when you get new items.

So, what’s changed? Here’s the TLDR version:


Every subtype of weapon now has its own bonuses to avoid ones that don’t make sense with that type of weapon.
You can only get one bonus of any particular type per weapon. The bonuses are typically larger than before since they no longer accumulate across multiple rarity tiers.
+Mag bonus rolls are all percentages now instead of flat increases.

Every Weapon Subtype Has Its Own Bonuses

Previously, with a couple exceptions, the rarity bonuses were broken down by broad weapon category, like “sniper rifles”. Because the tables were broad, some weapons would roll bonuses that weren’t useful on them. Now, every subtype of weapon has its own, distinct bonuses. For example, there are different bonuses for semi-auto snipers, charged sniper, and bolt-action snipers so you’ll no longer roll recoil bonuses on a bolt action sniper rifle where it’s not useful.

Duplicate Bonus Rolls are Prevented

You will no longer get more than one bonus of the same type on any particular weapon. Previously, bonuses were cumulative and getting the maximum bonus of a particular type required rolling that bonus in multiple rarity tiers. This system caused a massive difference in effectiveness between a weapon with “perfect” rolls and one with bad ones.

Now, each type of bonus can only appear on a weapon once and the value of the bonus assumes that it will be the maximum effectiveness by itself. Bonus values increase as the rarity tier does, so to get the highest bonus, you simply need to get it in the highest rarity tier slot. This frees up the other rarity tiers to roll something else.

To preserve balance, the individual rolls for each tier are generally higher than they were previously, but the maximum possible bonus of any particular type is typically lower since you gain additional benefits in the other rarity tier that would previously have been taken up with other bonuses of the same type. The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead.

Etaew has graciously posted the new tables on Defiance Data (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420) so you can easily see the changes.

Here’s an example of the same type of gun (in this case a VBI Assault Rifle) before and after the change.

Previous System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2hq9j86.png

Updated System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2e2ic20.png

In the example from the previous system, the weapon has two bonus rolls adding +Damage for a cumulative total of +15%. Similar rolls under the new system give +12% in the Legendary tier alone, the new maximum possible +Damage bonus for this gun, freeing up the Rare tier to have a different bonus. In this case, a +45% magazine size bonus.

As a special case, when upgrading the rarity of items, if the new, highest tier rolls a type of bonus that is already on the weapon, it will take the place of the lower rarity tier bonus, which will be rerolled instead. This ensures that you always have a chance to get the maximum possible bonus, even when upgrading an item that already has that type of bonus on it.

Magazine Increases are Percentages

All magazine size rarity bonuses are standardized as percentages now. Even within subtypes, the base magazine size can vary widely from gun to gun and increasing the magazine size by a percentage scales better than adding a set number of rounds. Every bonus, even the common one on a weapon with the smallest clip size in the category, is high enough to ensure you’re actually gaining rounds.

General Tuning

Finally, I did some tuning of the rolls themselves. Some bonuses, such as Fire Rate, were previously overvalued and their benefits have been increased to bring them in-line with other bonus types. Others, like crit modifier, were undervalued and the maximum benefit you can get from that type is lower than it was previously.

As mentioned previously, these changes only affect new weapons created after the changes are in place and won’t affect the guns you have currently. Also, weapons that have set, non-random rolls (like the Zagger) aren’t changing. That’s also true of weapons where some rolls are set and other randomized. They’ll continue to use the old system.

These changes will be coming soon to a PTS near you! It’s a rather large change affecting almost every gun in the game, so once we updated PTS with the changes, please hop on, find new weapons, and note anything that seems unexpected so we can address things before they go live.

Chris Robet
01-14-2015, 01:05 PM
So what you're saying is that grindfraggers aren't going to be able to get a decent amount of ammo?

Fuzzy
01-14-2015, 01:07 PM
So what you're saying is that grindfraggers aren't going to be able to get a decent amount of ammo?

Look at the tables we put up on DD. They still can get a decent amount of ammo.
Click here (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420#shotgunstable)

I for one welcome those changes very much :) Eager to test it on PTS.

Chris Robet
01-14-2015, 01:26 PM
16 ammo with no mods is pretty good I guess.

BlyndDragon
01-14-2015, 01:45 PM
What a waste of developer time. Cant fix the game but hey you can tweak it for no reason.

Chris Robet
01-14-2015, 01:50 PM
What a waste of developer time. Cant fix the game but hey you can tweak it for no reason.

And here comes the hate.

Alliiara
01-14-2015, 02:02 PM
Wow, this is very interesting. It looks like a great change. :)

Rashere
01-14-2015, 02:05 PM
It's kind of implied, but this change not only addresses a lot of the existing complaints about bonus rolls but it sets things up for the future additions coming with Alcatraz.

Rashere

Mr666
01-14-2015, 02:10 PM
My mind just blow and I can't wait

Midnight
01-14-2015, 02:13 PM
If you don't make the orange rolls equal to at least the sum of the 2 highest double rolls, this is going to cause prepatch weapons to still be surperior, especially double damage and double crit...how does mastery play into this? Unchanged, so we can still get double with that?

Midnight
01-14-2015, 02:18 PM
Hmm...also, something I find disturbing is the idea of upgrading possibly changing every single roll on the weapon...the new oj roll on a purple can change any other roll which can then refill and bump another one...causing the weapon to be totally different from what you started with

Rashere
01-14-2015, 02:20 PM
If you don't make the orange rolls equal to at least the sum of the 2 highest double rolls, this is going to cause prepatch weapons to still be surperior, especially double damage and double crit...how does mastery play into this? Unchanged, so we can still get double with that?

Mastery is unchanged. Pre-patch weapons will be better in that single bonus type, but will pick up additional benefits from the other roll that is now freed up. That roll is also typically higher than the same roll in the same slot previously. So, yes, your total maximum +Damage bonus is going to be lower, but you'll have some other roll making up the difference (fire rate, reload, crit, etc.).

On the whole, the new system is usually a slight step up in overall effectiveness on a "perfect roll" compared to the previous.

Rashere

Rashere
01-14-2015, 02:22 PM
Hmm...also, something I find disturbing is the idea of upgrading possibly changing every single roll on the weapon...the new oj roll on a purple can change any other roll which can then refill and bump another one...causing the weapon to be totally different from what you started with

That's not what happens. If you upgrade and the new bonus is one that weapon already has, it only rerolls the lower tier of the same type. That lower tier is only rolled against the possible bonuses that aren't on the weapon already, just like when the weapon is first created.

Rashere

Infinity Eagle
01-14-2015, 02:35 PM
So, after the changes go into effect, if you upgrade a purple wolfhound to orange that has 2 crit rolls, will it still have 2 crit rolls or be changed to the new rolls?

Rashere
01-14-2015, 02:37 PM
So, after the changes go into effect, if you upgrade a purple wolfhound to orange that has 2 crit rolls, will it still have 2 crit rolls or be changed to the new rolls?

Only affects new weapons created after the change, not old.

Rashere

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 02:51 PM
Suddenly, none of my double crit guns are up for trade anymore!

Going to have to digest this before commenting much further.

Thanks Etaew for posting stats and Rashere for helping clear things up.

satirized
01-14-2015, 02:58 PM
On the second thought, maybe my frontier 2 x dmg semi auto is no longer for trade....

Rashere
01-14-2015, 03:00 PM
Suddenly, none of my double crit guns are up for trade anymore!

Going to have to digest this before commenting much further.

Thanks Etaew for posting stats and Rashere for helping clear things up.

The part that's going to trip most people up when digesting this is that you have to think of bonuses holistically now instead of just trying to max one aspect of the gun. For example, max crit might not be as high, but will you make up that difference by rolling +mag, -reload, +fire rate, etc. in the other slot? Most of the time, you will, particularly with +crit which is situational already.

Making it a bit more complicated, bonuses impact each other. +Mag size, for example, becomes less effective for sustained DPS the faster the reload of a gun.

Rashere

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 03:01 PM
Follow up... I gotta say broadening the legendary bonuses available is going to have some weird effects on rarity upgrades. Accuracy roll will be the bane of my existence on ADS weapons. But at least mag rolls won't suck so bad anymore (have upgraded three purple double crit BHARs to oj and gotten three 1.25 mag rolls, blech). The new oj mag roll combined with a mag mod will be a bit crazy.

Definitely going to be interesting. Also, RIP accuracy rolls on sniper rifles, you will not be missed.

This definitely takes away from min maxing a bit, but doesn't look like it will go too far in the other direction and make guns too similar/bland.

satirized
01-14-2015, 03:04 PM
Only affects new weapons created after the change, not old.

Rashere

It wouldnt affect mastery rolls yes?

If given a current weapon with 2 x dmg rolls, all of the existing mastery rolls for that weapon category are still possible right?

Zoomer12
01-14-2015, 03:06 PM
Some of the more useless weapon mastery rolls need to be looked at too because the difference in effectiveness is day and night with a lot of them.

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 03:07 PM
Some of the more useless weapon mastery rolls need to be looked at too because the difference in effectiveness is day and night with a lot of them.

The bad rolls are there to make us buy arkforge in a fit of rage. (More precisely, they were always there, but likely won't go anywhere because of that.) Unfortunate side effect of the f2p model... maybe if they think of another way to monetize we will get some relief there.

DSW
01-14-2015, 03:07 PM
Magazine Increases are Percentages

All magazine size rarity bonuses are standardized as percentages now. Even within subtypes, the base magazine size can vary widely from gun to gun and increasing the magazine size by a percentage scales better than adding a set number of rounds. Every bonus, even the common one on a weapon with the smallest clip size in the category, is high enough to ensure you’re actually gaining rounds.



this will make pistols, 6-mag shotguns and maybe snipers like VOT Bolter useless.

f.e. VOT Blaster - 20 base mag, high falloff, hip spread and reload. with old system you could actually get it in a usefull roll combo (2+ flat mag rolls and mag mod) to offset it. with new.. well, let's say i highly doubt it, at least if the weapon itself wont get buffed.

same for all semi-auto pistols except Wolfies, with their base mags they'll hardly be of any use. (or, from another perspective - the wolfhound and its versions are the only balanced pistol oob)

TL;DR: old mag system was better, except that somebody forgot to add flat rolls for shotgun mags.





General Tuning
...
That’s also true of weapons where some rolls are set and other randomized. They’ll continue to use the old system.
...

can you name a few of them?

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 03:18 PM
Another thought to explore further: Will the new system be able to roll TMPs of higher quality than the equivalent nano/syn/rarity needlers?

Nefarious
01-14-2015, 03:25 PM
I get it but I don't get it.

satirized
01-14-2015, 03:26 PM
Currently doing some DPS on needler vs theoretical tachmag under new roll system.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Let base damage of tachmag be X.
Here is my theoretical tachmag I used for this calculation.

0.9 reload
1.3 mag
1.08 damage
1.2 firerate

First the damage,

1.08X+0.11x= 1.19x(tachmag)
1.05x*1.11=1.17x(needler)

Firerate
26.2*1.1+0.09*26.2=31.2(needler)
25*1.2+25*0.09=32.2(tachmag)

Mag size
50*0.7+50*1.1=90(needler)
50*0.7+50*1.2=100(tachmag)

Reload
1.3*(1-(0.15+0.05))=1(needler)
1.5*0.9=1.35(tachmag)

formula

dmg*fr*mag/fr/mag/fr+reload = dps.

1.17X*31.2*(90/31.2)/(90/31.2+1)=27.1X(needler)
1.19X*32.2*(100/32.2)/(100/32.2+1.35)=26.7X(needler)

Not sure if the game round up/down on reload and I might have made a couple mistake on rounding but here is the rough math.

Needler still better.

I believe I have taken into account of everything including needler's inherent damage/firerate/reload bonus, canonner synergy and OJ barrel dmg/magsize.

satirized
01-14-2015, 03:26 PM
Another thought to explore further: Will the new system be able to roll TMPs of higher quality than the equivalent nano/syn/rarity needlers?

Edit:math done. ^


Edit: Unicorn hogleg might.

Rashere
01-14-2015, 03:30 PM
It wouldnt affect mastery rolls yes?

If given a current weapon with 2 x dmg rolls, all of the existing mastery rolls for that weapon category are still possible right?

I haven't touched mastery rolls at all. They're something I want to look at in the future when I have time, but are unchanged currently.

Rashere

Markeen
01-14-2015, 03:39 PM
I already feel like the in game economy is in shambles. I can't wait to see trade/prices after this is implemented. I like the change. I just see gear trading being limited or more costly.

satirized
01-14-2015, 03:49 PM
I already feel like the in game economy is in shambles. I can't wait to see trade/prices after this is implemented. I like the change. I just see gear trading being limited or more costly.

What prices? Scrips means nothing. My top tier items are trade only.

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 03:51 PM
Edit:math done. ^

Now a hogleg might be a different story. Was hogleg dmg bonus 10% or 5% again?

Hmmm needler has the advantage of .35 sec reload speed and the TMP is better for everything else? Seems fair.

satirized
01-14-2015, 03:53 PM
Hmmm needler has the advantage of .35 sec reload speed and the TMP is better for everything else? Seems fair.

Sustained dps wise, needler is still better due to the huge reload speed bonus.

Burstwise, tachmag is better. But why would you use burst dps on a tachmag?

Xn xN7x
01-14-2015, 03:57 PM
I like this. Now dont have to worry about getting a good weapon with 2 crappy rolls of the same thing lol

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 03:59 PM
Sustained dps wise, needler is still better due to the huge reload speed bonus.

Burstwise, tachmag is better. But why would you use burst dps on a tachmag?

The difference seems small enough to be negligible unless you are continuously doing mag dump-reload-mag dump-reload.

Fallen_Aingeal
01-14-2015, 04:01 PM
Seems okay.

Also know my triple dmg ar and triple crit wolf will still stand out in the crowd.

Of course, a month after alcatraz drops, i'll have more ppl accusing me of hacking. Always cracks me up when ppl accuse me of hacking for having great gear that's "impossible" to get. I know several with similar weapons. LOL

satirized
01-14-2015, 04:06 PM
The difference seems small enough to be negligible unless you are continuously doing mag dump-reload-mag dump-reload.

My typical combat pattern is to mag dump/reload continue until all enemies are dead.

With both weapons, your mag dump speed is around 3 seconds. If you are dealing with large amount of trash mob/mini bosses at TL10, mag dump/reload with tachmag/ tachmag variants mixed with det mag dump is the top choice if you prefer to maintain mobility. If you can afford to sacrifice mobility, Quickshot Blaster/VOT blaster are the top choice.

Either way, I undercalculated the needler's DPS by missing the OJ native dmg bonus but its pointless. That math model is just to proof that a needler > TMP.

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 04:12 PM
My typical combat pattern is to mag dump/reload continue until all enemies are dead.

With both weapons, your mag dump speed is around 3 seconds. If you are dealing with large amount of trash mob/mini bosses at TL10, mag dump/reload with tachmag/ tachmag variants mixed with det mag dump is the top choice if you prefer to maintain mobility. If you can afford to sacrifice mobility, Quickshot Blaster/VOT blaster are the top choice.

Either way, I undercalculated the needler's DPS by missing the OJ native dmg bonus but its pointless. That math model is just to proof that a needler > TMP.

Fair enough although if I have that much trash in my way I have my boomer out, because CBA to aim when I can just blow everything up.

edit: Forgot one thing, OJ'ing an epic needler guarantees fire rate. So that is a big point in favor of actually acquiring a good needler.

Also forgot that TMPs can roll EGO purple rolls. That would boost the sustained dps.

crystal030405
01-14-2015, 05:24 PM
Only affects new weapons created after the change, not old.

Rashere

can you explain why you cant make it affect our old guns you guys have did this to us befor we spend alot of scrip on these guns and getting the best gear in this game can cost alot of scrip but what you are saying here is your going to make it to where our current guns are worthless vecause everyone is going to want new just like when the so called pre patch guns got nerfed mise well say seeing how i have a couple pre patch guns with only 3 or 4 rolls

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 05:31 PM
can you explain why you cant make it affect our old guns you guys have did this to us befor we spend alot of scrip on these guns and getting the best gear in this game can cost alot of scrip but what you are saying here is your going to make it to where our current guns are worthless vecause everyone is going to want new just like when the so called pre patch guns got nerfed mise well say seeing how i have a couple pre patch guns with only 3 or 4 rolls

Our old guns will do things the new guns don't, and vice versa. I definitely don't see this change as making the old ones obsolete (in contrast to the update that put blue rolls in).

Fallen_Aingeal
01-14-2015, 05:37 PM
Our old guns will do things the new guns don't, and vice versa. I definitely don't see this change as making the old ones obsolete (in contrast to the update that put blue rolls in).Agree with this. If you have good guns now, they will remain good unless they do another complete overhaul of the entire weapon system.

Like I said in previous post, I'll still cherish my triple dmg ar and triple crit wolf.

Curious with the new system, what will the crit max on a wolf be? 6.8, 7.0?

Rashere
01-14-2015, 05:39 PM
Our old guns will do things the new guns don't, and vice versa. I definitely don't see this change as making the old ones obsolete (in contrast to the update that put blue rolls in).

Exactly this.

The new system is fundamentally different enough that, between the combination of rolls and what the player gives preference to, it could be better or worse for that particular gun and that particular player. You've put a lot of time and effort into getting weapons that work with your play style and changing those guns out from under you is guaranteed to upset a large number of players.

It's much safer to leave existing weapons alone and only change new ones. If you find a combination under the new system that you like better than the old, you can always go get it but its not being forced upon you.

Rashere

alienstookmybeer
01-14-2015, 05:45 PM
Agree with this. If you have good guns now, they will remain good unless they do another complete overhaul of the entire weapon system.

Like I said in previous post, I'll still cherish my triple dmg ar and triple crit wolf.

Curious with the new system, what will the crit max on a wolf be? 6.8, 7.0?

Think the highest crit wolfhound in the new system would be 7.0 (7.04 actual) with assassin, crit mastery, skill level 20, and T5 barrel. The highest in the old was 7.4 (7.44 actual) if I did the math right.

satirized
01-14-2015, 05:49 PM
Think the highest crit wolfhound in the new system would be 7.0 (7.04 actual) with assassin, crit mastery, skill level 20, and T5 barrel. The highest in the old was 7.4 (7.44 actual) if I did the math right.

But the new would have higher dps likely. I can do the math later.

satirized
01-14-2015, 05:53 PM
Exactly this.

The new system is fundamentally different enough that, between the combination of rolls and what the player gives preference to, it could be better or worse for that particular gun and that particular player. You've put a lot of time and effort into getting weapons that work with your play style and changing those guns out from under you is guaranteed to upset a large number of players.

It's much safer to leave existing weapons alone and only change new ones. If you find a combination under the new system that you like better than the old, you can always go get it but its not being forced upon you.

Rashere

I agree with your stance rashere. I believe you are doing the right thing with this system. I am usually very cynical and critical of devs but this move is a good choice.

A. What is still good is not being nerfed. Not a single weapon's DPS has been changed. Your net DPS is being increased.
B. You have opportunities to get higher dps weapons then it is currently possible in the current system.
C. I believe for most of the time, the new system is actually a boost to the weapon's dps compared with the old system.

In other words, this is what the new system will bring.

Higher DPS for almost all weapons.
Less BS double recoil snipers/etc.
0 chance of specific unicorn guns droppings(2 x dmg frontier etc)

You probably get a net gain in dps.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

Any plan to changing some of the weird static rolls on the old arkbreaker weapons Rashmere? Like the out of place OJ 1.25crit on the quickshot blasters or the firerate thats does next to nothing on the splitshots?

Fallen_Aingeal
01-14-2015, 05:55 PM
Think the highest crit wolfhound in the new system would be 7.0 (7.04 actual) with assassin, crit mastery, skill level 20, and T5 barrel. The highest in the old was 7.4 (7.44 actual) if I did the math right.Thanks...


But the new would have higher dps likely. I can do the math later.Will be interested to see that also. I can't see that it'll be a huge difference. Of course, I'm not a mathematician. I do use the wolf solely for crit, so unless the dps upgrade is off the charts, it'll still out-produce the new line of wolfs.

satirized
01-14-2015, 05:56 PM
Thanks...

Will be interested to see that also. I can't see that it'll be a huge difference. Of course, I'm not a mathematician. I do use the wolf solely for crit, so unless the dps upgrade is off the charts, it'll still out-produce the new line of wolfs.

You know when I say dps, I meant crit dps right?

In other words, the newer wolf may have higher crit dps then the older wolfs.

Ok, very rough math. I am too lazy to factor into things like skill level or actual trigger speed. So purely theoretical and I may made some mistakes on how the multipliers interact with each others but this should be close to the correct version.

OW=Old Wolf
NW=New Wolf
X=Damage of the wolfhound before any multipliers

Rolls of perfect OW

+2 mag
2x crit
1.1 dmg

Rolls of perfect NW
1.2mag
1.05dmg
1.15fr
1.3crit

Damage
1.05x(NW)
1.1x(OW)

Mag
Both have the same mag size
12+2+20=34
12*1.2+20=34

Crit
1.4*4+0.25*4=6.6(OW)
1.3*4+0.25*4=6.2(NW)

Firerate
5.2*1.09=5.6(OW)
5.2*1.15+5.2*0.09=6.4(NW)

Reload
1.8s for both.

DPS

crit multi*dmg*fr*mag/fr/mag/fr+reload

1.05x*6.2*6.4*34/6.4/34/6.4+1.8=31.1X(NW)
1.1x*6.6*5.6*34/5.6/34/5.6+1.8=31.3X(OW)

So it turns out the older wolfhound have higher crit dps bases on a rough calc. Unless blue dmg roll is better then blue firerate roll but I am too lazy to find out. I just pick what looks like it could be the best.

Rashere
01-14-2015, 06:27 PM
I agree with your stance rashere. I believe you are doing the right thing with this system. I am usually very cynical and critical of devs but this move is a good choice.

A. What is still good is not being nerfed. Not a single weapon's DPS has been changed. Your net DPS is being increased.
B. You have opportunities to get higher dps weapons then it is currently possible in the current system.
C. I believe for most of the time, the new system is actually a boost to the weapon's dps compared with the old system.

In other words, this is what the new system will bring.

Higher DPS for almost all weapons.
Less BS double recoil snipers/etc.
0 chance of specific unicorn guns droppings(2 x dmg frontier etc)

You probably get a net gain in dps.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

Any plan to changing some of the weird static rolls on the old arkbreaker weapons Rashmere? Like the out of place OJ 1.25crit on the quickshot blasters or the firerate thats does next to nothing on the splitshots?

That's how I see it too. The gain in DPS for a "perfect" weapon is there in most cases, but its not drastic. If you find any cases where there's a large deviance between old and new, let me know. I've run the numbers, but with so many guns, its easy to miss an edge case.

I think you'll still have unicorns, though. They'll just look different. Instead of a 2x damage gun, you might want one with exactly legendary damage, rare crit mod, uncommon mag, and common reload (or whatever).

I'd like to take a closer look at the special, non-randomized weapons like the arkbreaker ones. It's just a matter of finding the time.

Rashere

Fallen_Aingeal
01-14-2015, 06:48 PM
You know when I say dps, I meant crit dps right?

In other words, the newer wolf may have higher crit dps then the older wolfs.

Ok, very rough math. I am too lazy to factor into things like skill level or actual trigger speed. So purely theoretical and I may made some mistakes on how the multipliers interact with each others but this should be close to the correct version.

OW=Old Wolf
NW=New Wolf
X=Damage of the wolfhound before any multipliers

Rolls of perfect OW

+2 mag
2x crit
1.1 dmg

Rolls of perfect NW
1.2mag
1.05dmg
1.15fr
1.3crit

Damage
1.05x(NW)
1.1x(OW)

Mag
Both have the same mag size
12+2+20=34
12*1.2+20=34

Crit
1.4*4+0.25*4=6.6(OW)
1.3*4+0.25*4=6.2(NW)

Firerate
5.2*1.09=5.6(OW)
5.2*1.15+5.2*0.09=6.4(NW)

Reload
1.8s for both.

DPS

crit multi*dmg*fr*mag/fr/mag/fr+reload

1.05x*6.2*6.4*34/6.4/34/6.4+1.8=31.1X(NW)
1.1x*6.6*5.6*34/5.6/34/5.6+1.8=31.3X(OW)

So it turns out the older wolfhound have higher crit dps bases on a rough calc. Unless blue dmg roll is better then blue firerate roll but I am too lazy to find out. I just pick what looks like it could be the best.I'm followin' ya...Thanks!

Mister Derpenhowser
01-14-2015, 07:22 PM
Oh goodie... well I'll be keeping my triple reload rolled courier and double dmg hellfire fragger then. I'll need to hunt through my inventory n see what other toys I have.

I'm hesitant about this tbh, but we'll see I guess...

King Stud
01-14-2015, 08:04 PM
Currently doing some DPS on needler vs theoretical tachmag under new roll system.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Let base damage of tachmag be X.
Here is my theoretical tachmag I used for this calculation.

0.9 reload
1.3 mag
1.08 damage
1.2 firerate

First the damage,

1.08X+0.11x= 1.19x(tachmag)
1.05x*1.11=1.17x(needler)

Firerate
26.2*1.1+0.09*26.2=31.2(needler)
25*1.2+25*0.09=32.2(tachmag)

Mag size
50*0.7+50*1.1=90(needler)
50*0.7+50*1.2=100(tachmag)

Reload
1.3*(1-(0.15+0.05))=1(needler)
1.5*0.9=1.35(tachmag)

formula

dmg*fr*mag/fr/mag/fr+reload = dps.

1.17X*31.2*90/31.2/90/31.2+1=27.1X(needler)
1.19X*32.2*100/32.2/100/32.2+1.35=26.7X(needler)

Not sure if the game round up/down on reload and I might have made a couple mistake on rounding but here is the rough math.

Needler still better.

I believe I have taken into account of everything including needler's inherent damage/firerate/reload bonus, canonner synergy and OJ barrel dmg/magsize.

How'd you add 9% to the fire rates? Cannoneer synergy adds 6% max.

Dixie Cougar
01-14-2015, 08:04 PM
How'd you add 9% to the fire rates? Cannoneer synergy adds 6% max.

First two bonuses stack, so 3+6=9.

satirized
01-14-2015, 08:07 PM
How'd you add 9% to the fire rates? Cannoneer synergy adds 6% max.

Canonner is 9%. It stacks.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-14-2015, 08:14 PM
so our pre patch weapons wont get a buff

satirized
01-14-2015, 08:17 PM
so our pre patch weapons wont get a buff

Nor a nerf.

Chump Norris
01-14-2015, 08:26 PM
So things like Needler/Zagger/Proliferator pulled after this hits will still have their old set rolls right?

DEATHBRINGER210
01-14-2015, 08:27 PM
Nor a nerf.

its seem to me they will need it

Chris Robet
01-14-2015, 08:28 PM
So things like Needler/Zagger/Proliferator pulled after this hits will still have their old set rolls right?

Yup they said it in a previous post.

King Stud
01-14-2015, 08:32 PM
formula

dmg*fr*mag/fr/mag/fr+reload = dps.

1.17X*31.2*90/31.2/90/31.2+1=27.1X(needler)
1.19X*32.2*100/32.2/100/32.2+1.35=26.7X(needler)



Did you also forget to put parentheses in your formula? Because that simplifies down to (dmg/FR) + reload = advanced dps, which can't be right.

I took Tekrunner's advanced dps formula (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmQr62FeibusdDc1eVBXamg3Y0xSYlozbUdJa2lMQ kE&usp=sharing#gid=15) and simplified that down:

Tekrunner's formula: dps * ((mag / RF ) / (mag / RF + reload))

simplified: (dmg*FR*mag)/(mag+FR*reload)

satirized
01-14-2015, 08:37 PM
Did you also forget to put parentheses in your formula? Because that simplifies down to (dmg/FR) + reload = advanced dps, which can't be right.

I took Tekrunner's advanced dps formula (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmQr62FeibusdDc1eVBXamg3Y0xSYlozbUdJa2lMQ kE&usp=sharing#gid=15) and simplified that down:

Tekrunner's formula: dps * ((mag / RF ) / (mag / RF + reload))

simplified: (dmg*FR*mag)/(mag+FR*reload)


Probably, I did it on my calculator and didnt bother to check the typed form on the forum.

I only did that model to check needler vs tachmag and figure might as well as posted the procedures. I actually under calculated the needler's dps by maybe 5%ish by forgetting to multiple both native damage by 15%.

satirized
01-14-2015, 08:42 PM
its seem to me they will need it

Why?

/10char

King Stud
01-14-2015, 08:46 PM
Probably, I did it on my calculator and didnt bother to check the typed form on the forum.

I only did that model to check needler vs tachmag and figure might as well as posted the procedures. I actually under calculated the needler's dps by maybe 5%ish by forgetting to multiple both native damage by 15%.

Where does the 15% dmg bonus come from?

satirized
01-14-2015, 08:49 PM
Where does the 15% dmg bonus come from?

OJ rarity damage bonus. As I said, I did it as rough estimate. And I believe the 1.35 reload would be rounded to 1.4sec reload on the tachmag. So overestimate on the tach.

King Stud
01-14-2015, 09:01 PM
Did you also forget to put parentheses in your formula? Because that simplifies down to (dmg/FR) + reload = advanced dps, which can't be right.

I took Tekrunner's advanced dps formula (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmQr62FeibusdDc1eVBXamg3Y0xSYlozbUdJa2lMQ kE&usp=sharing#gid=15) and simplified that down:

Tekrunner's formula: dps * ((mag / RF ) / (mag / RF + reload))

simplified: (dmg*FR*mag)/(mag+FR*reload)

I also went ahead and built two "unicorn" tachmags using pre-patch and post-patch rolls and calculated dps & advanced dps for both of them.

Pre-Patch
1.05 mag
1.03 fire rate
1.05 dmg
1.10 dmg

Post-Patch
0.90 reload
1.30 mag
1.08 dmg
1.20 fire rate

Assume base dmg = x, base mag = 50, & base reload = 1.4.

DPS
Pre-Patch: 25(1.03) * x(1+0.05+0.10) = 29.61x
Post-Patch: 25(1.20) * x(1+0.08) = 32.4x

32.4/29.61 = 1.09. The Post-Patch unicorn has a 9% dps gain over the Pre-Patch unicorn.

Advanced DPS
Pre-Patch: (x(1+0.05+0.10)*25(1.03)*50(1.05))/(50(1.05)+25(1.03)*1.4) = 17.56x
Post-Patch: (x(1+0.08)*25(1.20)*50(1.30))/(50(1.30)+25(1.20)*1.4(0.90)) = 20.49x

20.49/17.56 = 1.17. The Post-Patch unicorn has a 17% advanced dps gain over the Pre-Patch unicorn.


As you can see, there exists a large discrepancy between Pre-Patch and Post-Patch weapons, at least when it comes to tachmags. Unless I did my math wrong, you might as well toss out all your old unicorns now, because they won't be unicorns much longer.

satirized
01-14-2015, 09:04 PM
I also went ahead and built two "unicorn" tachmags using pre-patch and post-patch rolls and calculated dps & advanced dps for both of them.

Pre-Patch
1.05 mag
1.03 fire rate
1.05 dmg
1.10 dmg

Post-Patch
0.90 reload
1.30 mag
1.08 dmg
1.20 fire rate

Assume base dmg = x, base mag = 50, & base reload = 1.4.

DPS
Pre-Patch: 25(1.03) * x(1+0.05+0.10) = 29.61x
Post-Patch: 25(1.20) * x(1+0.08) = 32.4x

32.4/29.61 = 1.09. The Post-Patch unicorn has a 9% dps gain over the Pre-Patch unicorn.

Advanced DPS
Pre-Patch: (x(1+0.05+0.10)*25(1.03)*50(1.05))/(50(1.05)+25(1.03)*1.4) = 17.56x
Post-Patch: (x(1+0.08)*25(1.20)*50(1.30))/(50(1.30)+25(1.20)*1.4(0.90)) = 20.49x

20.49/17.56 = 1.17. The Post-Patch unicorn has a 17% advanced dps gain over the Pre-Patch unicorn.


As you can see, there exists a large discrepancy between Pre-Patch and Post-Patch weapons, at least when it comes to tachmags. Unless I did my math wrong, you might as well toss out all your old unicorns now, because they won't be unicorns much longer.

Heavily depends on weapon.

For example, my frontier semi auto.

2 x dmg bring it to 1.15 dmg. Its definitely higher then what you can get after. For a sniper rifle, the firerate increase is negligible.

It would loses around 500ish points of dmg under a post patch setup.
Certain PVP weapons are heavily determined by pure damage, not dps.


Also, remember how firerate works on burst weapons.

King Stud
01-14-2015, 10:27 PM
Heavily depends on weapon.

For example, my frontier semi auto.

2 x dmg bring it to 1.15 dmg. Its definitely higher then what you can get before. For a sniper rifle, the firerate increase is negligible.

It would loses around 500ish points of dmg under a post patch setup.
Certain PVP weapons are heavily determined by pure damage, not dps.


Also, remember how firerate works on burst weapons.

It's just that numbers on the new rolls for dmg and fire rate, at least for automatics weps, are ludicrously high. According to Rashere's post, "The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead." Look at my calculations, and tell me again that both tachmags have the same bonus to dps. The numbers, especially for fire rate and dmg rolls, badly need to be reworked and field tested to achieve parity.

satirized
01-14-2015, 10:30 PM
It's just that numbers on the new rolls for dmg and fire rate, at least for automatics weps, are ludicrously high. According to Rashere's post, "The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead." Look at my calculations, and tell me again that both tachmags have the same bonus to dps. The numbers, especially for fire rate and dmg rolls, badly need to be reworked to achieve parity.

You have an increase rate of ammo consumption from firerate. It should be fine. 12% increase in the grand scheme of things doesnt really affect the game's balance as a whole.

King Stud
01-14-2015, 11:10 PM
You have an increase rate of ammo consumption from firerate. It should be fine. 12% increase in the grand scheme of things doesnt really affect the game's balance as a whole.

12% increase is a OJ roll. That's pretty significant, in fact almost at the level of "a massive difference in effectiveness" that caused this whole patch to be implemented in the first place.

HelpIveBeenRenamed
01-15-2015, 01:08 AM
As long as they dont mess with my existing weapons like my quad fire rate cannonneer canker and my double damage top notch prepared big boomer I am happy.

It seems like a chance to get some kinda almost new weapons its gunna be a bit wierd when ya turn new stuff oj though lolz

Eleni
01-15-2015, 01:47 AM
Hellow all. Got the news In-game last night (EU time) and could only check Today.

Thanks to all making things a bit more clear, and working hard to find Which is the best. I appreciate the community work.

I am still ashamed by the basics of removing the number of same rolls. It was rare to get a 3x or 4x same rolls gun, but very nice when got one. Well, whats done is done we used to the prompt changes now.

I know you tryied to prove hard with maths on wolfies, Tell me if im wrong but as far as i understand:

-Our current gun 2x(something) roll will be "AVERAGE" balanced with a new gun orange roll (something).
-But our 3x / 4x(something) roll will be kickass gun compared to this stuck Orange roll (something).

I got a few 3x Acc bolter that helps me greatly to snapshot, a 3x reload Mazu and also my 4xreload QM FRC sawed off That i dont want to be changed at all; they are kickass guns and i invested lot of Arkforges in; so i want to keep great advantage from them.

Will require A LOT of DPS tests once its updated...

As well as i fear everybody will get the "same" guns after patch :/

Last one, when? when does this change is meant to take place?

Eleni
01-15-2015, 04:08 AM
Accuracy rolls removed on bolter snipers. i know it will still show on my ojs, but will the effect still be live??

Its the only roll removed so i fear it still shows but doesnt affect the sightcross anymore

Atticus Batman
01-15-2015, 05:01 AM
Accuracy rolls removed on bolter snipers. i know it will still show on my ojs, but will the effect still be live??

Its the only roll removed so i fear it still shows but doesnt affect the sightcross anymore


Yes the accuracy effect will still be there for snipers that have an accuracy roll. However accuracy rolls don't really affect snipers. So there is no real point to them on a sniper anyway, especially if you are smart enough to scope them instead of hip firing since they pretty much have pinpoint accuracy when scoped.

Dixie Cougar
01-15-2015, 05:12 AM
As far as I can tell, accuracy rolls are virtually useless (or at best uncompetitive) on anything that isn't a pulser or a TMP.

Claydough
01-15-2015, 05:15 AM
i really want to like these changes, but rolling double rolls on weapons is the only drive for farming better weapons.

im buying box after box to get to get double dmg cannoneer tachmags and/or simmerly specialized weapons.

if theres no double rolls, many weapons are going to be largely the same as each other...

Eleni
01-15-2015, 05:23 AM
Yes the accuracy effect will still be there for snipers that have an accuracy roll. However accuracy rolls don't really affect snipers. So there is no real point to them on a sniper anyway, especially if you are smart enough to scope them instead of hip firing since they pretty much have pinpoint accuracy when scoped.

Thank you replying and, yes i know accuracy is useless as long as the scope is on, but i used to "snapshot" with bolters, by just ticking the scope, and 3x accuracy avoid a lot of missed shot by reducing the hip cross. I spent last summer experimenting on bolter models, Accuracy affects greatly the cross and, helps me. :)

Because I dont aim, i run and gun with bolters.

Eleni
01-15-2015, 05:53 AM
As far as I can tell, accuracy rolls are virtually useless (or at best uncompetitive) on anything that isn't a pulser or a TMP.

I have pulled a blue FRC sawed off 3x accuracy as well, Run and gun. i compared the "cross" sight with a non Acc rolled Sawed off, the difference is massive. Plus Run and gun make the "cross" go tiny when i run, instead of spreading.

Which mean, on a sawed off, it concentrate its pellets, and is more likely to do a 1 shot in PvP, or higher average damage as all pellets hits.

Claydough
01-15-2015, 06:08 AM
will you be updating the jackpots to these rolls?

(the reckonings tiny legendary's mag roll more specifically)

Dixie Cougar
01-15-2015, 06:46 AM
will you be updating the jackpots to these rolls?

(the reckonings tiny legendary's mag roll more specifically)

He said it wouldn't be retroactive, although it's hard not to read the vastly improved mag rolls as an acknowledgement that the oj 1.25x mag was way underpowered.

I do really wish my Reckoning had fire rate on it.

konstantinov
01-15-2015, 07:29 AM
Well rounded guns anyone?

adrokier
01-15-2015, 07:35 AM
My Opinion !!

More DMG, more Mag, more Range, more Firerate?? --> PVP will be hell then :( I think this is the latest Point to leave defiance and PS3 to PS4 Systems ... not nice what they wanna do on infectors :( Buuuuuhhh

l3athal 513
01-15-2015, 08:42 AM
You guys wonder y people keep leaving the game yea defiance was save when free to play came out messed up the zagger so they are worth nothing these days with all the crap you guys took away from the game you would think that it would change for the best now your saying that there will b no more triple DMg or triple crit weapons what's the world coming to once again been here since day taking the same crap when this game dies I will probably never buy another trion game and sure a lot more people agree

Eleni
01-15-2015, 09:28 AM
You guys wonder y people keep leaving the game yea defiance was save when free to play came out messed up the zagger so they are worth nothing these days with all the crap you guys took away from the game you would think that it would change for the best now your saying that there will b no more triple DMg or triple crit weapons what's the world coming to once again been here since day taking the same crap when this game dies I will probably never buy another trion game and sure a lot more people agree


unfortunatly, i agree with the global idea... :(
shame as we had/have a lovely game and an amazing community.

satirized
01-15-2015, 09:44 AM
Apparently people dont understand the concept of dps and how the changes are actually gonna benefit you from doing more dmg.

cmpowell
01-15-2015, 10:39 AM
I guess you'll be using your first JP weapon opportunity under the new system to show us how much better it actually is then??

i don't see anyone really wanting an oj recoil, acc, or reload roll on there ar, smh, or lmg tho. the blue roll is more than enough

Gai
01-15-2015, 11:55 AM
As far as I can tell, accuracy rolls are virtually useless (or at best uncompetitive) on anything that isn't a pulser or a TMP.

I recently sold a SAW with triple accuracy rolls, fire rate oj roll and recoil mastery, it was actually pretty good lol would've kept it had I known about this update.

Azimov
01-15-2015, 12:12 PM
unfortunatly, i agree with the global idea... :(
shame as we had/have a lovely game and an amazing community.

You guys are nailing down the coffin lid a bit early don't you think? Save the dramatics for dramatic situations please.

Xn xN7x
01-15-2015, 12:13 PM
I'm glad this isnt going to mess up the rolls on my dc9. I have triple crit rolls that I dont want to lose XD
I just think losing overall damage is going to suck. As it is already hard to kill anything at threat level 10 solo with a good gun with high dps. Now lowering the overall damage with the buff patch yea right. Might aswell start playing a diff game that wont be frustrating lol

Rashere
01-15-2015, 12:16 PM
i really want to like these changes, but rolling double rolls on weapons is the only drive for farming better weapons.

im buying box after box to get to get double dmg cannoneer tachmags and/or simmerly specialized weapons.

if theres no double rolls, many weapons are going to be largely the same as each other...

Not quite accurate. Because almost every bonus type now exists in every rarity tier, there are more combinations per tier than there were previously. The possibilities drop with each tier since you can't reroll the same bonus, effectively removing it from the pool, but the chance of getting any specific combination of rolls on a weapon is similar to what it was. For sniper rifles, for example, it was 1 in 1296 previously and is now 1 in 1440 (for semi-auto). If you ignore the epic tier and let it be whatever, its 1 in 324 before vs. 1 in 360 now.

In most cases, weapons will be slightly more distinct from each other than they were previously, but not by a lot.

Rashere

satirized
01-15-2015, 12:16 PM
Not quite accurate. Because almost every bonus type now exists in every rarity tier, there are more combinations per tier than there were previously. The possibilities drop with each tier since you can't reroll the same bonus, effectively removing it from the pool, but the chance of getting any specific combination of rolls on a weapon is similar to what it was. For sniper rifles, for example, it was 1 in 1296 previously and is now 1 in 1440 (for semi-auto). If you ignore the epic tier and let it be whatever, its 1 in 324 before vs. 1 in 360 now.

In most cases, weapons will be slightly more distinct from each other than they were previously, but not by a lot.

Rashere

Also, new perfect tachmag is around 12% better then canonner 2 x dmg tachmag. So yeah, new weapon are actually better in almost all cases except pure dmg pvp weapon.

satirized
01-15-2015, 12:19 PM
I'm glad this isnt going to mess up the rolls on my dc9. I have triple crit rolls that I dont want to lose XD
I just think losing overall damage is going to suck. As it is already hard to kill anything at threat level 10 solo with a good gun with high dps. Now lowering the overall damage with the buff patch yea right. Might aswell start playing a diff game that wont be frustrating lol

I have no problem killing mobs at tl10. You are likely running with guns horrible dps, but you think its good. For example. DC9 have 2 x crit rolls, on a smg. If you can crit, use a hound/cat/ring, it would be have significantly more crit dps then a DC9. Every shot you are not critting, you are missing 2 roles.

Rashere
01-15-2015, 12:21 PM
Apparently people dont understand the concept of dps and how the changes are actually gonna benefit you from doing more dmg.

This is actually my biggest concern. Overall, most weapons will have a higher max sustained DPS in the new system, but its a bit more complex to grok that you get it through multiple bonuses instead of stacking a single one. Instead of just caring about double crit (or whatever), you now care about a particular combination, like legendary crit/rare reload. The sustained DPS of the new combination will typically be slightly higher than what you got out of the double crit previously.

Again, another reason why I left existing weapons alone. Even though the new format will typically be a slight buff for most weapons, perception is a powerful thing.

Rashere

satirized
01-15-2015, 12:34 PM
This is actually my biggest concern. Overall, most weapons will have a higher max sustained DPS in the new system, but its a bit more complex to grok that you get it through multiple bonuses instead of stacking a single one. Instead of just caring about double crit (or whatever), you now care about a particular combination, like legendary crit/rare reload. The sustained DPS of the new combination will typically be slightly higher than what you got out of the double crit previously.

Again, another reason why I left existing weapons alone. Even though the new format will typically be a slight buff for most weapons, perception is a powerful thing.

Rashere


Could the current UI adds an automatic dps calculator on each gun cards? It would show non advanced/advanced/crit/non crit dps of each individual weapon and might help with showing people the dps difference between guns.

Rashere
01-15-2015, 12:38 PM
Could the current UI adds an automatic dps calculator on each gun cards? It would show non advanced/advanced/crit/non crit dps of each individual weapon and might help with showing people the dps difference between guns.

It's a good idea. I'll jot that down for when we have some freed up development time.

Rashere

Fallen_Aingeal
01-15-2015, 12:43 PM
On page 5, Satirized proved that an old wolfhound outperforms the new versions. So not everything is getting buffed by this.

Untamed1
01-15-2015, 06:28 PM
So did the melee damage rolls get removed, I'm not seeing them anywhere.

Rashere
01-15-2015, 06:59 PM
So did the melee damage rolls get removed, I'm not seeing them anywhere.

Yep. Removed by popular demand.

Rashere

satirized
01-15-2015, 07:26 PM
Yep. Removed by popular demand.

Rashere

What about recoil rolls in general? Actually, if it is not too much work, would you kindly provides us with a list of rolls that are removed?

Fuzzy
01-15-2015, 07:29 PM
What about recoil rolls in general? Actually, if it is not too much work, would you kindly provides us with a list of rolls that are removed?

We have the new tables on DD.
http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420

Etaew kindly summarized the tables, from what I can see, only accuarcy rolls got removed from Snipers.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-15-2015, 07:31 PM
all new named guns will never get the new rolls , so i guess the value of all this guns just took a dive . looks like the knife is the only named weapon that wont be affected

satirized
01-15-2015, 07:31 PM
We have the new tables on DD.
http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420

Etaew kindly summarized the tables, from what I can see, only accuarcy rolls got removed from Snipers.

Ah thanks.

I believe recoil can be completely removed from the table for AR,LMG,SMG as well.

Chump Norris
01-15-2015, 07:34 PM
Yup they said it in a previous post.

Its in the OP I just skimmed through it lol.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-15-2015, 07:37 PM
i see the x2.00 Velocity roll on dets hasnt been removed . by far one of the most requested roll to get removed . is still around

Mister Derpenhowser
01-15-2015, 07:58 PM
I just looked at the table on DD... ARs etc are taking a hit :/ and whats with the 'new' bmg reload roll... all bmgs reload in 0.5 right?

cmpowell
01-15-2015, 07:59 PM
Ah thanks.

I believe recoil can be completely removed from the table for AR,LMG,SMG as well. I half agree the oj one defiantly can, but blue or green ones are nice on saws, thunders and cannoneer syn weapons

satirized
01-15-2015, 08:22 PM
I half agree the oj one defiantly can, but blue or green ones are nice on saws, thunders and cannoneer syn weapons

Shrug, I frequently play games where recoil are way stronger then this game thus in turn I dont notice any recoil at all on automatic weapons. I more or less auto compensate for any kind of recoil.

Feaster
01-15-2015, 08:30 PM
Can you tell us the day of the update?

Dixie Cougar
01-15-2015, 08:32 PM
I like the velocity and recoil rolls fine. Although smgs probably don't need recoil.

Random_Numbers
01-15-2015, 10:22 PM
So .. question .. what happens if I have a weapon with 2x crit mod .. wait until this goes live and then upgrade it's rarity?

Does it roll on the new table and how exactly is that going to work if it rolls crit and upgrades on the OJ roll? Will I still keep one of the crits or will both of them pop?

Atticus Batman
01-15-2015, 11:14 PM
So .. question .. what happens if I have a weapon with 2x crit mod .. wait until this goes live and then upgrade it's rarity?

Does it roll on the new table and how exactly is that going to work if it rolls crit and upgrades on the OJ roll? Will I still keep one of the crits or will both of them pop?

No the old guns, will stick to the old system when upgraded.

This new change will only affect newly dropped/rewarded/vendor bought gear.

Claydough
01-16-2015, 12:52 AM
i'll go in with an open mind

if the chances are similar to rolling specialized/unicone type weapons it will be a good thing. however, my predictions are there will be alot of similar weapons that seem to do everything well instead of weapons that have great strengths but trade offs

now, will bit store boxes have the new rolls, for example hellfire purge boxes and plate slicer boxes and where do the named event weapons end up in this? i'd love to get a new set of hellfire weapons but they will outclass the named weapons i have already or still trying to get

and have you put any thought into future jackpots? if you allowed double rolls on those you could get some great weapons, maybe ever alittle too great...

Mister Derpenhowser
01-16-2015, 01:07 AM
I don't really like the idea of upgrading to oj and it possibly changing lower level rolls... I think it should roll whatever choices are left instead.

Claydough
01-16-2015, 01:08 AM
also, i love recoil rolls on my AR/LMG

zayne83
01-16-2015, 03:09 AM
what's worse than an accuracy roll? VELOCITY roll on detonators

back in sept i forged my very first TN boomer and got an oj velocity roll which sucks til this day good thing i had a spare boomer with blue dmg roll and paid someone to forge it and got the oj dmg roll it deserves and got a dmg mastery which til this day i will never sell/trade (with prepared synergy)

then just an hour ago i forged another boomer and got the same velocity roll crap which frustrates me (punched a wall after seeing that roll)

devs should remove this velocity roll crap at detonators. it shoots like crazy, bad at PVP and a waste of 500 forges IMO. and i know it's a gamble but still crap nonetheless

i should get a free 1k forge for this madness JS

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:16 AM
if the chances are similar to rolling specialized/unicone type weapons it will be a good thing. however, my predictions are there will be alot of similar weapons that seem to do everything well instead of weapons that have great strengths but trade offs


I am a bit concerned about this as well. Over-homogenization of loot could cause players to become disengaged.

One possible counter to this would be to rework some of the weapons that are currently considered grossly underpowered. That way you get tradeoffs across weapon archetypes to make up for the loss of tradeoffs within them. I don't see that as a complete solution but it might help in addition to being worth doing on its own.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:18 AM
devs should remove this velocity roll crap at detonators. it shoots like crazy, bad at PVP and a waste of 500 forges IMO. and i know it's a gamble but still crap nonetheless


I murder with TN velocity boomers in pve and pvp. Don't trash these, sell them to psychos like me.

"I saw what you did to my friends. You are sick, demented people!"

Claydough
01-16-2015, 07:25 AM
oh, and another question, will you be doing similar things to synergys that have little to no effect to certain weapons. like say stalker on a courior or grenadier on a bmg and onther non recoil weapons?

cmpowell
01-16-2015, 11:16 AM
I don't really like the idea of upgrading to oj and it possibly changing lower level rolls... I think it should roll whatever choices are left instead.

I kinda like this. means i could look for reload, mag/fr, crit rolls on t4s and have a better chance at getting dmg instead of ending up with oj mag and green recoil and a completey crap weapon. of course i could end up with oj recoil, lol

Rashere
01-16-2015, 11:23 AM
i'll go in with an open mind

if the chances are similar to rolling specialized/unicone type weapons it will be a good thing. however, my predictions are there will be alot of similar weapons that seem to do everything well instead of weapons that have great strengths but trade offs

now, will bit store boxes have the new rolls, for example hellfire purge boxes and plate slicer boxes and where do the named event weapons end up in this? i'd love to get a new set of hellfire weapons but they will outclass the named weapons i have already or still trying to get

and have you put any thought into future jackpots? if you allowed double rolls on those you could get some great weapons, maybe ever alittle too great...

Once the update goes out, all newly acquired randomized weapons will use, so it includes bit store boxes as well as drops.

Jackpot items are all hand-set values. For jackpots created after the new system is live, I'll be using those values to create them. If I really wanted to, I could still make double rolls on those, but they'll generally be higher sustainted DPS just by optimizing the new rolls anyway.

Rashere

Rashere
01-16-2015, 11:24 AM
I am a bit concerned about this as well. Over-homogenization of loot could cause players to become disengaged.

One possible counter to this would be to rework some of the weapons that are currently considered grossly underpowered. That way you get tradeoffs across weapon archetypes to make up for the loss of tradeoffs within them. I don't see that as a complete solution but it might help in addition to being worth doing on its own.

Check my earlier post. The odds of getting any particular combination is slightly lower (but not by much) than it was previously, meaning you'll have slightly more variety, not less.

I'm slowly working my way through the underpowered weapon list, which helps boost viable guns too.

Rashere

Rashere
01-16-2015, 11:26 AM
what's worse than an accuracy roll? VELOCITY roll on detonators

back in sept i forged my very first TN boomer and got an oj velocity roll which sucks til this day good thing i had a spare boomer with blue dmg roll and paid someone to forge it and got the oj dmg roll it deserves and got a dmg mastery which til this day i will never sell/trade (with prepared synergy)

then just an hour ago i forged another boomer and got the same velocity roll crap which frustrates me (punched a wall after seeing that roll)

devs should remove this velocity roll crap at detonators. it shoots like crazy, bad at PVP and a waste of 500 forges IMO. and i know it's a gamble but still crap nonetheless

i should get a free 1k forge for this madness JS

Great post to use as a jumping point...

Not every roll is intended to be desired by every player or even intended to be equally valuable. When it comes to randomized guns, some will be better than others. Not every gun is going to be drool worthy. That's core to the randomized element.

Rashere

ironcladtrash
01-16-2015, 01:49 PM
This was one change I was waiting for. Is there any chance you could add something to the salvage matrix to let those that want too reroll the weapons under the new system. I have 2800 hours worth of really ****ty guns.

Fallen_Aingeal
01-16-2015, 01:49 PM
Great post to use as a jumping point...

Not every roll is intended to be desired by every player or even intended to be equally valuable. When it comes to randomized guns, some will be better than others. Not every gun is going to be drool worthy. That's core to the randomized element.

RashereExactly this. Otherwise, every gun in the game would be considered a unicorn by most.

Personally, The only thing that bothers me is the non-existent chance of dbl or triple rolls anymore. I have guns I consider to be unicorns because of these. My quad mag SAW, for example. It doesn't matter that the reload is over 4 seconds on the card. With a 180 in the mag, i simply overcharge when it gets to 15 and vwalla, insta-reload and another 180. Basically gives me a 345-355 mag, with almost half that at boosted dmg.

Sad to see these go by the wayside.

Nefarious
01-16-2015, 02:26 PM
what's worse than an accuracy roll? VELOCITY roll on detonators

back in sept i forged my very first TN boomer and got an oj velocity roll which sucks til this day good thing i had a spare boomer with blue dmg roll and paid someone to forge it and got the oj dmg roll it deserves and got a dmg mastery which til this day i will never sell/trade (with prepared synergy)

then just an hour ago i forged another boomer and got the same velocity roll crap which frustrates me (punched a wall after seeing that roll)

devs should remove this velocity roll crap at detonators. it shoots like crazy, bad at PVP and a waste of 500 forges IMO. and i know it's a gamble but still crap nonetheless

i should get a free 1k forge for this madness JS

It depends on the Detonator. Velocity on a Crash Boomer is something that I think is good.

But Velocity on a Boomer is not bad as where you aim is where you hit because the bombs for that stick.

What Velocity is bad for is the Incinerator Detonator as those are detonation bombs that bounce. I have... or had a great one that's ruined because it got Velocity. Whenever I try to put a bomb down in a certain spot it bounces off and goes flying 15 yards in a random direction. It would be nice if the bomb carried its weight when hitting the ground and rolled and bounced a little bit but it doesn't and acts like a super ball instead through and through.

Fallen_Aingeal
01-16-2015, 02:36 PM
It depends on the Detonator. Velocity on a Crash Boomer is something that I think is good.

But Velocity on a Boomer is not bad as where you aim is where you hit because the bombs for that stick.

What Velocity is bad for is the Incinerator Detonator as those are detonation bombs that bounce. I have... or had a great one that's ruined because it got Velocity. Whenever I try to put a bomb down in a certain spot it bounces off and goes flying 15 yards in a random direction. It would be nice if the bomb carried its weight when hitting the ground and rolled and bounced a little bit but it doesn't and acts like a super ball instead through and through.Gotta love launching these between 2 buildings in ChinaTown during an afflicted siege. Just hilarious! Too much fun!

Bar6arian
01-16-2015, 02:44 PM
Great post to use as a jumping point...

Not every roll is intended to be desired by every player or even intended to be equally valuable. When it comes to randomized guns, some will be better than others. Not every gun is going to be drool worthy. That's core to the randomized element.

Rashere

I get this but while velocity maybe desired for some dets it ruins the accuracy (will call it for now) for some such as the Big Boomer. It causes you to point towards the ground to shoot the rounds straight which ruins your aiming when using other detonators without the velocity roll. I've heard though I have never tried, that mastering a 1.25 velocity straightens out the rounds. Couldn't an adjustment be made on detonators so if you roll or upgrade and get the x2.00 velocity that it doesn't cause you to aim at your feet to shoot straight?

Rashere
01-16-2015, 02:55 PM
I get this but while velocity maybe desired for some dets it ruins the accuracy (will call it for now) for some such as the Big Boomer. It causes you to point towards the ground to shoot the rounds straight which ruins your aiming when using other detonators without the velocity roll. I've heard though I have never tried, that mastering a 1.25 velocity straightens out the rounds. Couldn't an adjustment be made on detonators so if you roll or upgrade and get the x2.00 velocity that it doesn't cause you to aim at your feet to shoot straight?

That sounds like a bug. Besides the Big Boomer, any other guns do that?

Rashere

maverick07
01-16-2015, 03:06 PM
That sounds like a bug. Besides the Big Boomer, any other guns do that?

Rashere

I think the problem with the 2.00 Velocity roll is it really exaggerates the way that detonators and other weapons that shoot grenades have always shot to the top left of the aiming redicule. Since the 2.00 Velocity makes it fly much faster you have to compensate for that and aim lower and to the right to make the shots hit where you want them to hit.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:15 PM
I use a velocity boomer with a velocity mastery and T5 accelerator in my general purpose loadout and a velocity boomer without the mastery on one of my alts and I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I am not saying you are making stuff up. I'm definitely aiming below my target even at long range which is typically not something you have to do with a non-oj velocity boomer. However, the boomer without the mastery, if anything, requires less down-aiming than the one with it--which seems intuitive to me since the "loft" is not as pronounced. And as far as I can tell, all the shots are going straight (I do know of the leftward pull on CFs though).

Edit: Fresh screenshot below. This is my all-out velocity boomer.

http://i.imgur.com/u3wC3Cg.jpg

I think the frustrating thing about velocity boomers for people is that unlike most oj rolls it's a "game changer" rather than an incremental bonus and causes the weapon to behave in drastically different way that requires a period of adjustment if you want to get good with it. It's not for everyone, but if you develop the "muscle memory" required you can swat things beyond draw distance and generally wreak havoc in both pve and pvp. It's also great in open areas with poor cover and against charging enemies because you can detonate a fraction of a second sooner. Artillery is the king of the battlefield.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:40 PM
Check my earlier post. The odds of getting any particular combination is slightly lower (but not by much) than it was previously, meaning you'll have slightly more variety, not less.

I'm slowly working my way through the underpowered weapon list, which helps boost viable guns too.

Rashere

I understand that there are more combinations available, but I'm not sure that the differences between them will be as pronounced under the new system if you eliminate garbage rolls and the "extremes" of double and triple rolled guns. Instead there will be many variations of well-rounded guns, some a bit better than others. Think of a bell curve with the upper and lower 10% chopped off and the rest of the curve raised up. You have a lower standard deviation with no outliers, even if there is differentiation in the middle.

To some degree, I actually see this as a good thing because I won't have to tell new players that their triple accuracy derailer is not a keeper. But if you loot a bunch of guns all with rolls in the same areas to varying degrees, I'm not sure that will be as interesting. Many people do like to min max a little bit even if they are not crunching numbers, and if the only room to do that is in the mastery roll then there is going to be a lot of reroll frustration happening (which may sell more arkforge, or simply cause people to rage quit if it gets bad enough).

As I've said, I really don't want to pass any premature judgment or go overboard with theorycrafting. This is only my intuition here. I see a lot of good changes (fire rate on semiautos and bolts might actually do something noticeable now...) in the new system.

EDIT: Please do not read my 2nd paragraph as a threat to rage quit, I like the direction you are taking with the game in general terms.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:46 PM
What Velocity is bad for is the Incinerator Detonator as those are detonation bombs that bounce. I have... or had a great one that's ruined because it got Velocity. Whenever I try to put a bomb down in a certain spot it bounces off and goes flying 15 yards in a random direction. It would be nice if the bomb carried its weight when hitting the ground and rolled and bounced a little bit but it doesn't and acts like a super ball instead through and through.

I do have to agree with this, velocity on the bouncy dets is bad news. I don't use them much but I had a bad run-in with a 2k ego incinerator on my alt.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 03:46 PM
Exactly this. Otherwise, every gun in the game would be considered a unicorn by most.

Personally, The only thing that bothers me is the non-existent chance of dbl or triple rolls anymore. I have guns I consider to be unicorns because of these. My quad mag SAW, for example. It doesn't matter that the reload is over 4 seconds on the card. With a 180 in the mag, i simply overcharge when it gets to 15 and vwalla, insta-reload and another 180. Basically gives me a 345-355 mag, with almost half that at boosted dmg.

Sad to see these go by the wayside.

Well, look at the upside, you can hang onto your quad mag SAW and tell the greenhorns "When I was your EGO level, we emptied our mags to school uphill in the snow both ways without reloading, and we liked it too!"

whit
01-16-2015, 04:04 PM
It depends on the Detonator. Velocity on a Crash Boomer is something that I think is good.

But Velocity on a Boomer is not bad as where you aim is where you hit because the bombs for that stick.


I have a crash boomer with the velocity roll, I would have preferred a different roll, but it is okay. Great for blasting zombies once you get used to aiming it to compensate for the extra speed.

I have to disagree with velocity on a big boomer. When I pulled a purple TN big boomer I prayed that I wouldn't get the velocity roll when I oj-ed it, luckily I didn't. The problem is that I use the boomer as a mid range lobber a lot in expert coop. There are often obstacles in the way, the boomer is good for lobbing grenades over those. With the velocity roll, you can no longer do that, you just hit the obstacle. If I had pulled the velocity roll on my boomer I would have had to bin it and continue to use my inferior FRC one.

Rashere
01-16-2015, 04:15 PM
I understand that there are more combinations available, but I'm not sure that the differences between them will be as pronounced under the new system if you eliminate garbage rolls and the "extremes" of double and triple rolled guns. Instead there will be many variations of well-rounded guns, some a bit better than others. Think of a bell curve with the upper and lower 10% chopped off and the rest of the curve raised up. You have a lower standard deviation with no outliers, even if there is differentiation in the middle.

To some degree, I actually see this as a good thing because I won't have to tell new players that their triple accuracy derailer is not a keeper. But if you loot a bunch of guns all with rolls in the same areas to varying degrees, I'm not sure that will be as interesting. Many people do like to min max a little bit even if they are not crunching numbers, and if the only room to do that is in the mastery roll then there is going to be a lot of reroll frustration happening (which may sell more arkforge, or simply cause people to rage quit if it gets bad enough).

As I've said, I really don't want to pass any premature judgment or go overboard with theorycrafting. This is only my intuition here. I see a lot of good changes (fire rate on semiautos and bolts might actually do something noticeable now...) in the new system.

EDIT: Please do not read my 2nd paragraph as a threat to rage quit, I like the direction you are taking with the game in general terms.

Ahh, I see what you're saying and you're dead on. Flattening things out a bit is actually part of the reason for the change. The compounding nature of the rolls makes it very difficult to balance new items due to extreme spikes in the highs.

There's still sizable difference in there, though. As an example using the gun I'm currently playing with, there's about a 40% variance in DPS depending on the rolls at legendary.

Rashere

Crack
01-16-2015, 04:35 PM
Would it be possible to add something in the matrix that would allow you to reroll a pre-patch (our current system) to the new roll sets? Im sure it would be simple as just replacing the item while keeping the ego, nano, and synergy as a base.

ps. I hate dets without the 2.0 velocity roll, so I agree its just a preference. Bouncing dets however should never have that roll. Funny det story...I was at IDR standing on the mod vendor and shot the wall near the front gate with a velocity rolled Auto-Lobber. It bounced right back at me nearly killing me...that explosive covered a lot of distance. lol

Rashere
01-16-2015, 04:37 PM
Would it be possible to add something in the matrix that would allow you to reroll a pre-patch (our current system) to the new roll sets? Im sure it would be simple as just replacing the item while keeping the ego, nano, and synergy as a base.

ps. I hate dets without the 2.0 velocity roll, so I agree its just a preference. Bouncing dets however should never have that roll. Funny det story...I was at IDR standing on the mod vendor and shot the wall near the front gate with a velocity rolled Auto-Lobber. It bounced right back at me nearly killing me...that explosive covered a lot of distance. lol

No, its not really feasible without a significant effort. Since you can always get a new gun, I went with the safe route and left existing weapons alone.

Rashere

SouLLezzZ
01-16-2015, 04:55 PM
Dang so no more x3 dmg on weapons....that sucks, now wat am i suppose to do with all these x2 dmg weapons?

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 06:26 PM
Another random thought: Won't it be a bit confusing for the newer players to have fixed roll guns using the old system available in various vendors? Might be a chance to update the Paradise/Chimera vendors as some of the guns in those seem to be anti-unicorns.

Rashere
01-16-2015, 06:51 PM
Another random thought: Won't it be a bit confusing for the newer players to have fixed roll guns using the old system available in various vendors? Might be a chance to update the Paradise/Chimera vendors as some of the guns in those seem to be anti-unicorns.

Totally confusing (to anyone that pays attention to these things)!

What I want to do is create new versions of those old weapons using the new rolls and put those on the vendors and in the boxes. That way the existing guns aren't affected. It's just very time consuming so I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to it.

Rashere

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 07:20 PM
Totally confusing (to anyone that pays attention to these things)!

What I want to do is create new versions of those old weapons using the new rolls and put those on the vendors and in the boxes. That way the existing guns aren't affected. It's just very time consuming so I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to it.

Rashere

Maybe I'm reading into this too much--does the bolded mean that vendor supply crates won't RNG using the new system when it's implemented for general drops?

Claydough
01-16-2015, 07:29 PM
i think the problem is that the two dets feel and shoot so different.
you either use vel dets or non vel dets.

Bar6arian
01-16-2015, 07:37 PM
That sounds like a bug. Besides the Big Boomer, any other guns do that?

Rashere

Perhaps a bug but Velocity should act like a Firerate to me? Problem occurs most on Big Boomers and makes them shoot farther upwards instead of projecting in a straighter line faster. This was brought up months ago for a potential fix but for some reason dropped. Some will compensate and use it now but the issue occurs when you use other detonators that do not have x2.00 velocity and try to compensate for the change. I'd just rather use detonators that are modded with +4, +5, or +6 velocity than one that has x2.00 as the loft change is to different.

Dixie Cougar
01-16-2015, 07:50 PM
Perhaps a bug but Velocity should act like a Firerate to me? Problem occurs most on Big Boomers and makes them shoot farther upwards instead of projecting in a straighter line faster. This was brought up months ago for a potential fix but for some reason dropped. Some will compensate and use it now but the issue occurs when you use other detonators that do not have x2.00 velocity and try to compensate for the change. I'd just rather use detonators that are modded with +4, +5, or +6 velocity than one that has x2.00 as the loft change is to different.

Detonator trajectory seems to be inherently parabolic instead of firing straight forward and then dropping due to gravity. That's likely why you see such a loft with x2 boomers which pushes you to aim downwards at close to medium range. This isn't exactly realistic, but how many of us have gotten to fire a grenade launcher IRL anyway?

Mister Derpenhowser
01-16-2015, 08:52 PM
I have an oj ss det that I have to aim at the ground to hit things closer... great for hitting stuff on the opposite side of a major though...

BC001
01-17-2015, 12:14 AM
The velocity increase is too handy to get rid of. While it is true that the trajectory changes a bit it does not take long to get used to. On anything but level ground you have to judge the angle to use by eye anyway and for that having to point the sight at the ground does not mean much.

Claydough
01-17-2015, 01:40 AM
maybe we can change the velocity roll to a rare or uncommon roll instead of taking up a good orange roll?

this could find abit more of a happy medium between the two...???

zayne83
01-17-2015, 05:51 AM
clay is right about a better oj roll than getting the oj velocity roll which btw my friend who just forged her TN boomer got a velocity roll and she's pissed just like me about getting it

or just remove the velocity roll on tn boomers and place it on crash boomers or whatnot

Bar6arian
01-17-2015, 09:31 AM
Detonator trajectory seems to be inherently parabolic instead of firing straight forward and then dropping due to gravity. That's likely why you see such a loft with x2 boomers which pushes you to aim downwards at close to medium range. This isn't exactly realistic, but how many of us have gotten to fire a grenade launcher IRL anyway?

Exactly and I don't believe velocity should be remove but adjusted so the round shoots straight through the sight with more velocity as I believe it is intended to do.

DSW
01-17-2015, 10:51 AM
Exactly and I don't believe velocity should be remove but adjusted so the round shoots straight through the sight with more velocity as I believe it is intended to do.

this. also i'm still looking to get x2 velocity big boomer on PC/EU if anybody has one. quite handy thing for afflicted and mutant sieges for example. also was forced to use only x2 SS pounder in some of finals due to lack of players.

ShatterST4R
01-17-2015, 04:36 PM
Thanks for clearing that up.. Would HATE to lose my double damage crime fighter.

Random_Numbers
01-17-2015, 05:04 PM
Why not box all the vendor weapons? Like the Defiant Few ones ... still OJ .. but in a box with a random roll instead of pre-sets for the Chimera and the like?

DSW
01-18-2015, 02:48 PM
That sounds like a bug. Besides the Big Boomer, any other guns do that?

Rashere

there's another bug with x2 velocity detonators - for some reason, you can launch grenades so that it would NOT explode when landed. you can see them just fine, reload your det, whatever... they just wont go off. EVEN if you trigger reload while they are still flying. happens at least for ground pounders, still havent got an x2 velo big boomer

sixsais
01-18-2015, 04:03 PM
This might be an obvious question but the change will also affect faction vendor weapons, right? i.e. Thawandaye = 2 crit rolls.

Fuzzy
01-18-2015, 06:02 PM
This might be an obvious question but the change will also affect faction vendor weapons, right? i.e. Thawandaye = 2 crit rolls.

I think Rashere addressed that in a previous post of his:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?193157-Coming-Change-to-Weapon-Rarity-Bonuses&p=1679598&viewfull=1#post1679598

He's not sure when he'll get to it, but he wants to create those weapons with new rolls. It didn't mention the Thorn Liro vendor specifically though, but I bet he thought about that too.

Claydough
01-18-2015, 11:16 PM
i know you cant do everything at once, but will the synergy follow this same trend with useless syns being remover for certain weapons?

example being stalker courior or granadier BMG?

Cyripax NeoPrime
01-19-2015, 12:32 AM
Does this mean no more double crit wolfies!!??

notsosaintly
01-19-2015, 10:26 AM
Weapon rarity bonuses, also known as bonus rolls, are the additional, random bonuses that weapons get based on their rarity tier. As part of the effort to update itemization, I’ve made some fundamental changes to how these rarity bonuses work that I want to explain before they go to PTS.

An important note first: these changes are not retroactive. They only apply to new weapons created after the changes are in place. The new system is different enough that I didn’t think it fair to forcibly update existing weapons so, for better or worse, you’ll only see the changes when you get new items.

So, what’s changed? Here’s the TLDR version:


Every subtype of weapon now has its own bonuses to avoid ones that don’t make sense with that type of weapon.
You can only get one bonus of any particular type per weapon. The bonuses are typically larger than before since they no longer accumulate across multiple rarity tiers.
+Mag bonus rolls are all percentages now instead of flat increases.

Every Weapon Subtype Has Its Own Bonuses

Previously, with a couple exceptions, the rarity bonuses were broken down by broad weapon category, like “sniper rifles”. Because the tables were broad, some weapons would roll bonuses that weren’t useful on them. Now, every subtype of weapon has its own, distinct bonuses. For example, there are different bonuses for semi-auto snipers, charged sniper, and bolt-action snipers so you’ll no longer roll recoil bonuses on a bolt action sniper rifle where it’s not useful.

Duplicate Bonus Rolls are Prevented

You will no longer get more than one bonus of the same type on any particular weapon. Previously, bonuses were cumulative and getting the maximum bonus of a particular type required rolling that bonus in multiple rarity tiers. This system caused a massive difference in effectiveness between a weapon with “perfect” rolls and one with bad ones.

Now, each type of bonus can only appear on a weapon once and the value of the bonus assumes that it will be the maximum effectiveness by itself. Bonus values increase as the rarity tier does, so to get the highest bonus, you simply need to get it in the highest rarity tier slot. This frees up the other rarity tiers to roll something else.

To preserve balance, the individual rolls for each tier are generally higher than they were previously, but the maximum possible bonus of any particular type is typically lower since you gain additional benefits in the other rarity tier that would previously have been taken up with other bonuses of the same type. The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead.

Etaew has graciously posted the new tables on Defiance Data (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420) so you can easily see the changes.

Here’s an example of the same type of gun (in this case a VBI Assault Rifle) before and after the change.

Previous System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2hq9j86.png

Updated System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2e2ic20.png

In the example from the previous system, the weapon has two bonus rolls adding +Damage for a cumulative total of +15%. Similar rolls under the new system give +12% in the Legendary tier alone, the new maximum possible +Damage bonus for this gun, freeing up the Rare tier to have a different bonus. In this case, a +45% magazine size bonus.

As a special case, when upgrading the rarity of items, if the new, highest tier rolls a type of bonus that is already on the weapon, it will take the place of the lower rarity tier bonus, which will be rerolled instead. This ensures that you always have a chance to get the maximum possible bonus, even when upgrading an item that already has that type of bonus on it.

Magazine Increases are Percentages

All magazine size rarity bonuses are standardized as percentages now. Even within subtypes, the base magazine size can vary widely from gun to gun and increasing the magazine size by a percentage scales better than adding a set number of rounds. Every bonus, even the common one on a weapon with the smallest clip size in the category, is high enough to ensure you’re actually gaining rounds.

General Tuning

Finally, I did some tuning of the rolls themselves. Some bonuses, such as Fire Rate, were previously overvalued and their benefits have been increased to bring them in-line with other bonus types. Others, like crit modifier, were undervalued and the maximum benefit you can get from that type is lower than it was previously.

As mentioned previously, these changes only affect new weapons created after the changes are in place and won’t affect the guns you have currently. Also, weapons that have set, non-random rolls (like the Zagger) aren’t changing. That’s also true of weapons where some rolls are set and other randomized. They’ll continue to use the old system.

These changes will be coming soon to a PTS near you! It’s a rather large change affecting almost every gun in the game, so once we updated PTS with the changes, please hop on, find new weapons, and note anything that seems unexpected so we can address things before they go live.

Any idea on an **approximate** ETA of when this will hit the PS3/XBox servers?

Rashere
01-19-2015, 11:11 AM
Any idea on an **approximate** ETA of when this will hit the PS3/XBox servers?

Same time it hits PC. It's going to PTS this week, likely, and will roll out to the live servers once its been thoroughly tested and tuned. No hard date.

Rashere

WhiteStrike
01-19-2015, 11:11 AM
Just hope the detonator velocity is fixed.I've been trying to call Ark Breaks to get a grape Area Supressor and I don't want to get a cursed velocity mastery.

Rashere
01-19-2015, 11:49 AM
Just hope the detonator velocity is fixed.I've been trying to call Ark Breaks to get a grape Area Supressor and I don't want to get a cursed velocity mastery.

Just tried the x2.00 velocity mod on a Big Boomer and it's not doing what was described above. It works almost identically to other detonators, such as the Ground Pounder. For short range targets, you have to aim lower since its effectively increasing the max distance of the weapon, but you definitely don't have to point at the ground.

I'm going to leave it alone for now and if folks have problems with it on PTS, I'll take another look.

Rashere

Mister Derpenhowser
01-19-2015, 08:43 PM
My ss det needed to be aimed at the ground with a purp velocity sight n oj roll... fortunately I sold it. Lol

konstantinov
01-20-2015, 05:16 AM
My ss det needed to be aimed at the ground with a purp velocity sight n oj roll... fortunately I sold it. Lol

I can only use detonators with a t3 scope because the rounds act like ballistic missiles with anything higher.

whit
01-20-2015, 05:31 AM
I hate the 2x velocity roll because a boomer can't do a medium range arched lob with it. However, a lot of people seem to like the roll because it effectively turns the boomer into a RL (with more ammo). So I guess that roll is here to stay.

Eleni
01-20-2015, 05:47 AM
I understand what you all say, now try a 2x velocity rolled Incinerator, with a purple sight.

As its a non sticky grenade its quiet fun and easy to get used to. one of my favorite.

Also got a Velocity rolled Matchlock boomer (im not fan of big boomers or VBIs) and its just lovely.


Now i get a non 2x veloc GL, i just bin it. I find it too slow.

If you guys dont like and get a 2x Vel. one, id glad to give you my non veloce GLs for them.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-20-2015, 07:12 AM
when are the top notch boomers getting their blast radius fixed the have way to much radius blast

satirized
01-20-2015, 08:58 AM
when are the top notch boomers getting their blast radius fixed the have way to much radius blast

Do you even know how full dam radius works? Smh.

GodKingMoloch
01-20-2015, 10:56 AM
So every weapon in the game is getting nerfed. Nice going again trion.

satirized
01-20-2015, 11:13 AM
So every weapon in the game is getting nerfed. Nice going again trion.

How many times do I have to say, overall dps is buffed. THIS IS MORE OR LESS A BUFF in terms of DPS. A couple weapon's dps is lower but thats what the PTS is for. Holy crap you people, learn mathematics and play with the numbers first. Stop saying buff/nerf without understand why a weapon is good or bad.

This game's math is not hard. Basic arithmetic......

Mister Derpenhowser
01-20-2015, 11:41 AM
Tell you what, you get an oj courier with new rolls and I'll duel you with my triple reload rolled courier. Bet I'll win.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-20-2015, 11:44 AM
Do you even know how full dam radius works? Smh.
when you get by a bomb going off next to you. the radius is what hits you. even if you have blast shield on . spray a prayers get real lucky

satirized
01-20-2015, 11:45 AM
Tell you what, you get an oj courier with new rolls and I'll duel you with my triple reload rolled courier. Bet I'll win.

Why would I ever use a courier in pvp? I would needler/slugger you down in less then half a second.

satirized
01-20-2015, 11:46 AM
when you get by a bomb going off next to you. the radius is what hits you. even if you have blast shield on . spray a prayers get real lucky

Full damage radius doesnt increase blast radius. It increases the full damage radius of the detonator round within the blast radius.

WhiteStrike
01-20-2015, 11:46 AM
Tell you what, you get an oj courier with new rolls and I'll duel you with my triple reload rolled courier. Bet I'll win.

Watch out,might have a good TN Boomer and show you his Boomer Rage.;)
Seriously though,the new Sawed-off will be much weaker.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-20-2015, 11:50 AM
the blast radius are still way out of line on the tn boomers

WhiteStrike
01-20-2015, 11:52 AM
the blast radius are still way out of line on the tn boomers

I never owned a TN Boomer.Are they that good?Whats their blast radius?

satirized
01-20-2015, 11:55 AM
I never owned a TN Boomer.Are they that good?Whats their blast radius?

TN boomer have 10% innate damage bonus.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-20-2015, 11:55 AM
yep they are good . but the radius is just to much. they dont even have to hit with bomb to kill you . just shoot around u

konstantinov
01-20-2015, 11:55 AM
Full damage radius doesnt increase blast radius. It increases the full damage radius of the detonator round within the blast radius.

Bingo, that's why it's so underrated because a lot of people don't understand how/what it is/does.

Note: Boomer min dmg is like 4k at the highest well deduct 30% from blast shield and it's not even a tickle.

DEATHBRINGER210
01-20-2015, 12:03 PM
the perk only has a 25% . maybe the perk needs a buff

Mister Derpenhowser
01-20-2015, 12:24 PM
Why would I ever use a courier in pvp? I would needler/slugger you down in less then half a second.

You're the one banging on about this being a buff for everything. My courier alone proves its not.

satirized
01-20-2015, 12:53 PM
You're the one banging on about this being a buff for everything. My courier alone proves its not.

I never said it was everything. I said in most cases and where in few cases, its not. Thats what the PTS is for..

crystal030405
01-20-2015, 01:33 PM
My question is about the bug guns you can only get three different rolls on the mag reload and fire rate so are they going to only have four possible rolls now ?

maverick07
01-20-2015, 01:45 PM
My question is about the bug guns you can only get three different rolls on the mag reload and fire rate so are they going to only have four possible rolls now ?

Yes. Infectors will also have Range, DMG, and Bug DMG rolls and those rolls will be available all the way up to legendary.

maverick07
01-20-2015, 01:57 PM
Bingo, that's why it's so underrated because a lot of people don't understand how/what it is/does.

Note: Boomer min dmg is like 4k at the highest well deduct 30% from blast shield and it's not even a tickle.

Yeah, very much underrated, I never hunted down a multi DMG roll boomer as I had one with three full DMG radius rolls. And double crit rolls... it did work against mobs of enemies.

I didn't think blast shield deducted DMG though? I thought it reduced range that explosives hit you unless I'm thinking of another perk of something else.

konstantinov
01-20-2015, 03:45 PM
Yeah, very much underrated, I never hunted down a multi DMG roll boomer as I had one with three full DMG radius rolls. And double crit rolls... it did work against mobs of enemies.

I didn't think blast shield deducted DMG though? I thought it reduced range that explosives hit you unless I'm thinking of another perk of something else.

Reduces the range at which explosives hit you which increases the chance of the full 100% damage from each node not hitting you.

Logain
01-22-2015, 07:26 PM
Do we know what the value of each individual roll is yet? I know Defiance Data has the max values posted but I was curious what the white, green, and blue values were in addition to the orange rolls.

konstantinov
01-22-2015, 07:47 PM
Do we know what the value of each individual roll is yet? I know Defiance Data has the max values posted but I was curious what the white, green, and blue values were in addition to the orange rolls.

Yeah I saw the updated list somewhere and for the most part they've been increased across the board.

I'll see if I can find it and post a link for ya.

Edit: If you scroll down on the page you'll see each sub class with the new values.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420

Logain
01-22-2015, 07:51 PM
Yeah I saw the updated list somewhere and for the most part they've been increased across the board.

I'll see if I can find it and post a link for ya.

Edit: If you scroll down on the page you'll see each sub class with the new values.

http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420

Thank you!

cmpowell
01-24-2015, 10:54 PM
Just tried the x2.00 velocity mod on a Big Boomer and it's not doing what was described above. It works almost identically to other detonators, such as the Ground Pounder. For short range targets, you have to aim lower since its effectively increasing the max distance of the weapon, but you definitely don't have to point at the ground.

I'm going to leave it alone for now and if folks have problems with it on PTS, I'll take another look.

with just the mod or the oj roll? the oj roll is what causes it to act that way for me anyway

Rashere

just the mod or the oj roll. the oj roll is what causes the problem for me anyway

ShatterST4R
01-25-2015, 12:22 PM
Does this apply to masteries? So example, since dancing lady has 2x crit rolls, after the patch will I be able to get a crit mastery?

Fuzzy
01-25-2015, 12:34 PM
Does this apply to masteries? So example, since dancing lady has 2x crit rolls, after the patch will I be able to get a crit mastery?

Masteries haven't been changed, but you can take a look at Defiance Data's Mastery table:
http://www.defiancedata.com/weaponbonuses.php?t=Mastery&w=Assault&f=icons

You can already get crit on it as a mastery.

Plus, this change won't be retroactive. Even IF masteries would be changed, any pre-patch weapon would still roll masteries from the old pool.

ShatterST4R
01-25-2015, 12:40 PM
What I meant was, for example..

Dancing lady already has two crit rolls. After this upcoming patch will I be able to get a crit mastery on it?

Or are mastery and rolls two different things? Because currently rushing to try and get the crit mastery, before the updated rolls patch, but if I'm mistaken, then I won't need to rush trying on the mastery..

Fuzzy
01-25-2015, 01:10 PM
What I meant was, for example..

Dancing lady already has two crit rolls. After this upcoming patch will I be able to get a crit mastery on it?

Or are mastery and rolls two different things? Because currently rushing to try and get the crit mastery, before the updated rolls patch, but if I'm mistaken, then I won't need to rush trying on the mastery..

Mastery and rolls are two completely different things.
Rolls are the thing you see on your weapon card, as the double crit is on the Dancing Lady.
The mastery is independant of that, and we have all possible masteries listed on DD. It could be that some rolls aren't possible anymore (self-revive rolls are still on there), but crit definitely is possible.
Rashere also said he didn't touch masteries yet, so no rush to get the mastery :) You will be able to get it after the patch still.

cmpowell
01-25-2015, 01:11 PM
What I meant was, for example..

Dancing lady already has two crit rolls. After this upcoming patch will I be able to get a crit mastery on it?

Or are mastery and rolls two different things? Because currently rushing to try and get the crit mastery, before the updated rolls patch, but if I'm mistaken, then I won't need to rush trying on the mastery..

to repeat but reword fuzzys answer. weapons received before the patch will still receive rolls/mastery from the old pool. this patch is not retroactive meaning if you can get it now you can get it on the weapons you have now after the patch

ShatterST4R
01-25-2015, 01:33 PM
Oh alright then, so after patch I can still get crit mastery on my dancing lady, but if I got another lady from a box after patch I wouldn't be able to correct?

Fuzzy
01-25-2015, 01:51 PM
Oh alright then, so after patch I can still get crit mastery on my dancing lady, but if I got another lady from a box after patch I wouldn't be able to correct?

No! Masteries have NOTHING to do with bonus rolls. They aren't changing masteries, for the third time now :)
Masteries are what you receive as an extra bonus on top of your stats. Masteries are untouched.

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?193157-Coming-Change-to-Weapon-Rarity-Bonuses&p=1677769#post1677769


Mastery is unchanged.

ShatterST4R
01-25-2015, 02:07 PM
Okay then Lol, sorry for trying to completely understand the game. Thanks.

Atticus Batman
01-25-2015, 05:18 PM
What I meant was, for example..

Dancing lady already has two crit rolls. After this upcoming patch will I be able to get a crit mastery on it?

Or are mastery and rolls two different things? Because currently rushing to try and get the crit mastery, before the updated rolls patch, but if I'm mistaken, then I won't need to rush trying on the mastery..

I think what is being ignored about Shatter's post is that he is talking about a set roll weapon. Shatter, a dancing Lady was created manually by the devs, and it's main rolls are set in stone. The mastery bonuses it has to choose from are from the bonus pool that was in affect when that gun was made. So if it is capable of getting a crit roll, then you can still get it after enough arforge.

ShatterST4R
01-25-2015, 05:38 PM
Thank you for all the answers, I've been stressing to try AMD get crit mastery before the patch because I wasn't sure before my posts if after the patch I would be able to get the crit mastery. So its a relief to know I can get it after patch. Appreciate the answers.

Claydough
01-25-2015, 06:25 PM
what happen if we have an old purple weapon that we then upgrade to orange after the new rolls are live?

will it be a hybrid with new oj roll? or will it retain the old rolls?

Fuzzy
01-25-2015, 06:56 PM
what happen if we have an old purple weapon that we then upgrade to orange after the new rolls are live?

will it be a hybrid with new oj roll? or will it retain the old rolls?

It will roll rolls from the old pool. It's been like this with the first weapon bonus roll change too.


I think what is being ignored about Shatter's post is that he is talking about a set roll weapon. Shatter, a dancing Lady was created manually by the devs, and it's main rolls are set in stone. The mastery bonuses it has to choose from are from the bonus pool that was in affect when that gun was made. So if it is capable of getting a crit roll, then you can still get it after enough arforge.

This isn't only true for unique weapons though. EVERY weapon created before the patch will still roll masteries, rolls etc from the current pool. It doesn't matter if it's a hand-created weapon or not.
And since masteries haven't even been touched yet, new and old weapons will be able to roll the same masteries.

TriGlav 2000
01-26-2015, 10:48 AM
It will roll rolls from the old pool. It's been like this with the first weapon bonus roll change too.
Did they fixed this, because I rolled a new roll (-0.70 Accuracy) on an old gun?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-US2dyhkADMI/VMaANasbOOI/AAAAAAAABGI/thp1D42VU94/s512/New%2520gun.jpg

Rashere
01-26-2015, 11:11 AM
Did they fixed this, because I rolled a new roll (-0.70 Accuracy) on an old gun?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-US2dyhkADMI/VMaANasbOOI/AAAAAAAABGI/thp1D42VU94/s512/New%2520gun.jpg

Yep, that's a bug and PTS will be getting the fix today, I believe.

Thanks for all the clarifications, Fuzzy. You're dead on!

Rashere

SirServed
01-26-2015, 06:36 PM
Is it your intention to leave Recoil rolls on Sawed-Off Shotguns? Most of them can only be fired once, making the recoil roll worthless and the few that can be fired more than once don't have enough recoil rolls for it to matter. Thanks for reading.

Rashere
01-26-2015, 06:53 PM
Is it your intention to leave Recoil rolls on Sawed-Off Shotguns? Most of them can only be fired once, making the recoil roll worthless and the few that can be fired more than once don't have enough recoil rolls for it to matter. Thanks for reading.

That's a valid point. Due to other limitations, sawed-off shotguns currently have the minimum number of bonuses per tier that I can have without introducing a chance you literally get no bonus in a tier. So, I can't just yank it. Would need to find something to replace it with first.

I'll have to think about that one a bit since there aren't any immediately obvious benefits I could replace it with.

Rashere

satirized
01-26-2015, 07:11 PM
That's a valid point. Due to other limitations, sawed-off shotguns currently have the minimum number of bonuses per tier that I can have without introducing a chance you literally get no bonus in a tier. So, I can't just yank it. Would need to find something to replace it with first.

I'll have to think about that one a bit since there aren't any immediately obvious benefits I could replace it with.

Rashere

Replace it with pellet number increase or drop off?

Rashere
01-26-2015, 07:17 PM
Replace it with pellet number increase or drop off?

Pellet number is a multiplier on damage and would be hard to balance.

Falloff damage might be interesting if its something I can affect with the bonus rolls. Looking into that.

Rashere

Chump Norris
01-26-2015, 09:16 PM
I didn't mean to do it. Sorry everyone..

zayne83
01-27-2015, 11:05 AM
so no more 2x or 3x rolls. i've hit the vendors 10 mins. before the restart and got a decent syphon vbi semi auto with 2x mag and went to wm and got a 2x crit bio lightning and 2x reload syphon lightning. time to hoard this artifacts along with my 2x 3x stuffs i won't let go now because of the changes

Gai
01-28-2015, 04:28 PM
Will these changes also affect event lockbox weapons? hellfire, thanksgiving, radiant etc.

Rashere
01-28-2015, 05:58 PM
Will these changes also affect event lockbox weapons? hellfire, thanksgiving, radiant etc.

Only if you get them after the changes are live and it doesn't affect the named guns.

Rashere

Random_Numbers
01-29-2015, 10:53 AM
Not sure how involved it would be .. but would it be possible, atleast for now, to have the paradise and chimera vendors sell weapons at character level instead of 5000?

konstantinov
01-29-2015, 11:46 AM
Not sure how involved it would be .. but would it be possible, atleast for now, to have the paradise and chimera vendors sell weapons at character level instead of 5000?

From a business/company point of view this would decrease the amount of revenue from bit sales.

Dixie Cougar
01-29-2015, 11:54 AM
From a business/company point of view this would decrease the amount of revenue from bit sales.

But they would burn large amounts of AF leveling the guns back up. As it is people can buy and lower (spending 6 extra af) but they don't know to do it.

Not that those guns are really worth it anyway.

Tex_Arcana
01-29-2015, 02:42 PM
But they would burn large amounts of AF leveling the guns back up. As it is people can buy and lower (spending 6 extra af) but they don't know to do it.

Not that those guns are really worth it anyway.
Pardon me oh mighty Guild Leader...you dissin' my Perforator?
It's a fine gun imo.

Dixie Cougar
01-29-2015, 04:08 PM
Pardon me oh mighty Guild Leader...you dissin' my Perforator?
It's a fine gun imo.

Yeah it's alright but you didn't buy it, lower the ego way below 5k and then burn arkforge leveling it up did ya? That would have been kind of a waste!

DefianceSucks101
01-29-2015, 07:41 PM
Against this!! Unless

Can we not lower the totals on a single roll? Why in the heck would you lower it instead of raising the value just alittle higher like instead of getting 1.25 crit mult you get 1.40 crit mult thats equal to 2 crit rolls in 1. Things on this game are already HARD AS HECK! to kill cause of the super over powered alien super power buff yall gave them that absolutely no single player can kill without 100000 people there to shot at it at threat level 10 :/ This idea is dumb only cause of totals being lowered! I appeal this unless totals are raised with a equal value of 2 rolls in 1.

I really dont want to have to spend 10 - 15 minutes just to kill a single enemy at some faction quest or boss or coop. Seriously WTH!

Tex_Arcana
01-30-2015, 11:52 AM
Yeah it's alright but you didn't buy it, lower the ego way below 5k and then burn arkforge leveling it up did ya? That would have been kind of a waste!
Nope. Just get the gun oil. Clean it; shoot it; sleep with it ;)

CountryBoy
01-30-2015, 04:33 PM
Weapon rarity bonuses, also known as bonus rolls, are the additional, random bonuses that weapons get based on their rarity tier. As part of the effort to update itemization, I’ve made some fundamental changes to how these rarity bonuses work that I want to explain before they go to PTS.

An important note first: these changes are not retroactive. They only apply to new weapons created after the changes are in place. The new system is different enough that I didn’t think it fair to forcibly update existing weapons so, for better or worse, you’ll only see the changes when you get new items.

So, what’s changed? Here’s the TLDR version:


Every subtype of weapon now has its own bonuses to avoid ones that don’t make sense with that type of weapon.
You can only get one bonus of any particular type per weapon. The bonuses are typically larger than before since they no longer accumulate across multiple rarity tiers.
+Mag bonus rolls are all percentages now instead of flat increases.

Every Weapon Subtype Has Its Own Bonuses

Previously, with a couple exceptions, the rarity bonuses were broken down by broad weapon category, like “sniper rifles”. Because the tables were broad, some weapons would roll bonuses that weren’t useful on them. Now, every subtype of weapon has its own, distinct bonuses. For example, there are different bonuses for semi-auto snipers, charged sniper, and bolt-action snipers so you’ll no longer roll recoil bonuses on a bolt action sniper rifle where it’s not useful.

Duplicate Bonus Rolls are Prevented

You will no longer get more than one bonus of the same type on any particular weapon. Previously, bonuses were cumulative and getting the maximum bonus of a particular type required rolling that bonus in multiple rarity tiers. This system caused a massive difference in effectiveness between a weapon with “perfect” rolls and one with bad ones.

Now, each type of bonus can only appear on a weapon once and the value of the bonus assumes that it will be the maximum effectiveness by itself. Bonus values increase as the rarity tier does, so to get the highest bonus, you simply need to get it in the highest rarity tier slot. This frees up the other rarity tiers to roll something else.

To preserve balance, the individual rolls for each tier are generally higher than they were previously, but the maximum possible bonus of any particular type is typically lower since you gain additional benefits in the other rarity tier that would previously have been taken up with other bonuses of the same type. The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead.

Etaew has graciously posted the new tables on Defiance Data (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420) so you can easily see the changes.

Here’s an example of the same type of gun (in this case a VBI Assault Rifle) before and after the change.

Previous System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2hq9j86.png

Updated System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2e2ic20.png

In the example from the previous system, the weapon has two bonus rolls adding +Damage for a cumulative total of +15%. Similar rolls under the new system give +12% in the Legendary tier alone, the new maximum possible +Damage bonus for this gun, freeing up the Rare tier to have a different bonus. In this case, a +45% magazine size bonus.

As a special case, when upgrading the rarity of items, if the new, highest tier rolls a type of bonus that is already on the weapon, it will take the place of the lower rarity tier bonus, which will be rerolled instead. This ensures that you always have a chance to get the maximum possible bonus, even when upgrading an item that already has that type of bonus on it.

Magazine Increases are Percentages

All magazine size rarity bonuses are standardized as percentages now. Even within subtypes, the base magazine size can vary widely from gun to gun and increasing the magazine size by a percentage scales better than adding a set number of rounds. Every bonus, even the common one on a weapon with the smallest clip size in the category, is high enough to ensure you’re actually gaining rounds.

General Tuning

Finally, I did some tuning of the rolls themselves. Some bonuses, such as Fire Rate, were previously overvalued and their benefits have been increased to bring them in-line with other bonus types. Others, like crit modifier, were undervalued and the maximum benefit you can get from that type is lower than it was previously.

As mentioned previously, these changes only affect new weapons created after the changes are in place and won’t affect the guns you have currently. Also, weapons that have set, non-random rolls (like the Zagger) aren’t changing. That’s also true of weapons where some rolls are set and other randomized. They’ll continue to use the old system.

These changes will be coming soon to a PTS near you! It’s a rather large change affecting almost every gun in the game, so once we updated PTS with the changes, please hop on, find new weapons, and note anything that seems unexpected so we can address things before they go live.

Hey man thought this would benefit your idea of changing weapon rolls.
I was hoping you would see this and put a opinion in. :)
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?198625-Permanent-Synergy-Activation

DEATHBRINGER210
01-31-2015, 06:14 AM
wouldnt it have been easier to just removed rolls than to just come up with new ones?

ShatterST4R
02-03-2015, 08:52 AM
Some of the new rolls look disappointing , such like the valentine named weapons, the only thing I see being better is maybe three guns types. So a double roll Pre patch will be better than a new single roll even though cap is increasing for single ros, bit doesn't add what double roll multipliers do.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-03-2015, 10:38 PM
Some of the new rolls look disappointing , such like the valentine named weapons, the only thing I see being better is maybe three guns types. So a double roll Pre patch will be better than a new single roll even though cap is increasing for single ros, bit doesn't add what double roll multipliers do.

I agree, all the talk about higher dps levelling out the lack of double damage rolls is garbage. Yeah, thats nice for some weapon types but most will suffer. I mean most people hate sawn offs but now you wont ever be able to get one with a decent reload. At the very least they should leave jackpots on the old system so we can get something decent from time to time.

Dixie Cougar
02-04-2015, 01:20 AM
Only serious gripe I have so far is the orange accuracy and reload rolls. Those are going to be the new "1.25x mag" on most guns.

Gai
02-04-2015, 01:35 AM
You're not losing any dps from not having double damage rolls. It becomes 0.03 DMG vs 1.10 Fire Rate or 1.25 Crit

Eleni
02-04-2015, 01:43 AM
I agree, all the talk about higher dps levelling out the lack of double damage rolls is garbage. Yeah, thats nice for some weapon types but most will suffer. I mean most people hate sawn offs but now you wont ever be able to get one with a decent reload. At the very least they should leave jackpots on the old system so we can get something decent from time to time.

<------------------ Collects Sawed-offs

Atticus Batman
02-04-2015, 03:20 AM
I agree, all the talk about higher dps levelling out the lack of double damage rolls is garbage. Yeah, thats nice for some weapon types but most will suffer. I mean most people hate sawn offs but now you wont ever be able to get one with a decent reload. At the very least they should leave jackpots on the old system so we can get something decent from time to time.

Jackpots don't use the old or new system. They are manually made by Rashere, to be however HE wants them.

Claydough
02-04-2015, 04:58 AM
Only serious gripe I have so far is the orange accuracy and reload rolls. Those are going to be the new "1.25x mag" on most guns.

This worrys me alot when it comes to upgrading purples to oranges. With the current/old system you had a pretty good chance at that damage or firerate roll on the unicorn purple.

However with the amount of possible rolls on oj, i cant really see myself spending the forge upgrading rarity, as theres going to be alot of disappointing rolls.

Time will tell though, maybe just the sheer numbers of triple acc rolls will make up the difference in trashed weapons.

Gai
02-04-2015, 05:13 AM
This worrys me alot when it comes to upgrading purples to oranges. With the current/old system you had a pretty good chance at that damage or firerate roll on the unicorn purple.

However with the amount of possible rolls on oj, i cant really see myself spending the forge upgrading rarity, as theres going to be alot of disappointing rolls.

Time will tell though, maybe just the sheer numbers of triple acc rolls will make up the difference in trashed weapons.

Just try to get a white reload or acc roll so it's excluded from oj roll lol

Atticus Batman
02-04-2015, 05:18 AM
Just try to get a white reload or acc roll so it's excluded from oj roll lol

It won't be excluded.

The new system rolls the highest tier roll from all possible rolls for that tier. Then rerolls the lower roll that was an inferior version.

So if you have a white Accuracy roll on a purple and upgrade to orange. And get an orange accuracy, then that white roll will be rerolled from the pool, and exclude any roll options that are already in a higher tier spot on the gun.


That's not what happens. If you upgrade and the new bonus is one that weapon already has, it only rerolls the lower tier of the same type. That lower tier is only rolled against the possible bonuses that aren't on the weapon already, just like when the weapon is first created.

Rashere

Fuzzy
02-04-2015, 05:23 AM
Just try to get a white reload or acc roll so it's excluded from oj roll lol

Nope, doesn't work. Rolls are calculated from highest to lowest tier. If you were to roll accuarcy as a legendary roll, your white roll would get rerolled.

Edit: Damn, ninja'ed by the Batman :D

Atticus Batman
02-04-2015, 05:29 AM
{SNIP}
Edit: Damn, ninja'ed by the Batman :D

Again?! Darn that Batman!

Gai
02-04-2015, 05:46 AM
It won't be excluded.

The new system rolls the highest tier roll from all possible rolls for that tier. Then rerolls the lower roll that was an inferior version.

So if you have a white Accuracy roll on a purple and upgrade to orange. And get an orange accuracy, then that white roll will be rerolled from the pool, and exclude any roll options that are already in a higher tier spot on the gun.

What kind of stupid f*ckery is that?!

Fuzzy
02-04-2015, 05:58 AM
What kind of stupid f*ckery is that?!

TBH, it's the same atm. You cannot KNOW what you'll get since nothing is removed from the bonus rolls. You just have a smaller selection of rolls atm, so the chance of getting something you'd like is higher.

Gai
02-04-2015, 06:23 AM
TBH, it's the same atm. You cannot KNOW what you'll get since nothing is removed from the bonus rolls. You just have a smaller selection of rolls atm, so the chance of getting something you'd like is higher.

If we oj a purp now there is no chance of your weap changing a current roll tho lol. So there's a possibly of ruining a purple now with the new system. Guess I'll stick to oj drops.

Claydough
02-04-2015, 10:40 AM
If we oj a purp now there is no chance of your weap changing a current roll tho lol. So there's a possibly of ruining a purple now with the new system. Guess I'll stick to oj drops.

a weapon wont show its true colours until its orange i guess.

like i said, i can't see myself upgrading much, however time will tell


also, is there an eta on this going live yet?

ShatterST4R
02-04-2015, 12:46 PM
If we oj a purp now there is no chance of your weap changing a current roll tho lol. So there's a possibly of ruining a purple now with the new system. Guess I'll stick to oj drops.


It does suck, the argument is more substained DPS with more mag, but we shouldn't need more mag to kill anything unless its a boss fight. I don't buy forge for bits, and wouldnt put the time into upping a purple rarity with the new rolls.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-04-2015, 01:15 PM
Jackpots don't use the old or new system. They are manually made by Rashere, to be however HE wants them.

Since all the new Valentines event jackpots are rolled on the new system I beg to differ. He may choose what roll is what colour but can't make double crits etc anymore.

Dixie Cougar
02-04-2015, 01:28 PM
Since all the new Valentines event jackpots are rolled on the new system I beg to differ. He may choose what roll is what colour but can't make double crits etc anymore.

It you were rolling out a new system you wouldn't want to break it immediately either. The devs were able to put unusual card bonuses on purple rolls for the Christmas event so they might do special stats again in the future.

Alex leigh
02-04-2015, 02:17 PM
Oh goodie... well I'll be keeping my triple reload rolled courier and double dmg hellfire fragger then. I'll need to hunt through my inventory n see what other toys I have.

I'm hesitant about this tbh, but we'll see I guess...

I'm with you. Going to keep my weapons as well. Have spent too much time, effort and Ark forge to change them out. I like having double and triple weapons. Seems to me that they are going to be less in damage. Would rather have a higher damage weapon. Don't really care for the others, that's what mods are for.

ShatterST4R
02-04-2015, 02:31 PM
I'm with you. Going to keep my weapons as well. Have spent too much time, effort and Ark forge to change them out. I like having double and triple weapons. Seems to me that they are going to be less in damage. Would rather have a higher damage weapon. Don't really care for the others, that's what mods are for.

Some of my weapons are missing rolls now after that first patch.. I'm hoping second patch will fix this..

Rashere
02-04-2015, 02:47 PM
If we oj a purp now there is no chance of your weap changing a current roll tho lol. So there's a possibly of ruining a purple now with the new system. Guess I'll stick to oj drops.

Not quite accurate. The new system only applies to randomly generated weapons (though I'll be using the new bonuses for future jackpots and other hand-created guns). The only time a lower tier gets rerolled is if the newly upgraded tier has the same bonus type, purely to make sure you always get the best possible effect. Epic bonuses for randomly generated guns are always the unique effects which don't exist in any other tier, so you'll never reroll an epic bonus.

Rashere

Alex leigh
02-04-2015, 02:54 PM
Weapon rarity bonuses, also known as bonus rolls, are the additional, random bonuses that weapons get based on their rarity tier. As part of the effort to update itemization, I’ve made some fundamental changes to how these rarity bonuses work that I want to explain before they go to PTS.

An important note first: these changes are not retroactive. They only apply to new weapons created after the changes are in place. The new system is different enough that I didn’t think it fair to forcibly update existing weapons so, for better or worse, you’ll only see the changes when you get new items.

So, what’s changed? Here’s the TLDR version:


Every subtype of weapon now has its own bonuses to avoid ones that don’t make sense with that type of weapon.
You can only get one bonus of any particular type per weapon. The bonuses are typically larger than before since they no longer accumulate across multiple rarity tiers.
+Mag bonus rolls are all percentages now instead of flat increases.

Every Weapon Subtype Has Its Own Bonuses

Previously, with a couple exceptions, the rarity bonuses were broken down by broad weapon category, like “sniper rifles”. Because the tables were broad, some weapons would roll bonuses that weren’t useful on them. Now, every subtype of weapon has its own, distinct bonuses. For example, there are different bonuses for semi-auto snipers, charged sniper, and bolt-action snipers so you’ll no longer roll recoil bonuses on a bolt action sniper rifle where it’s not useful.

Duplicate Bonus Rolls are Prevented

You will no longer get more than one bonus of the same type on any particular weapon. Previously, bonuses were cumulative and getting the maximum bonus of a particular type required rolling that bonus in multiple rarity tiers. This system caused a massive difference in effectiveness between a weapon with “perfect” rolls and one with bad ones.

Now, each type of bonus can only appear on a weapon once and the value of the bonus assumes that it will be the maximum effectiveness by itself. Bonus values increase as the rarity tier does, so to get the highest bonus, you simply need to get it in the highest rarity tier slot. This frees up the other rarity tiers to roll something else.

To preserve balance, the individual rolls for each tier are generally higher than they were previously, but the maximum possible bonus of any particular type is typically lower since you gain additional benefits in the other rarity tier that would previously have been taken up with other bonuses of the same type. The total maximum bonus to DPS you can achieve is roughly the same, or slightly higher, than it was before but you’ll get it from multiple types of bonuses instead.

Etaew has graciously posted the new tables on Defiance Data (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=420) so you can easily see the changes.

Here’s an example of the same type of gun (in this case a VBI Assault Rifle) before and after the change.

Previous System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2hq9j86.png

Updated System:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2e2ic20.png

In the example from the previous system, the weapon has two bonus rolls adding +Damage for a cumulative total of +15%. Similar rolls under the new system give +12% in the Legendary tier alone, the new maximum possible +Damage bonus for this gun, freeing up the Rare tier to have a different bonus. In this case, a +45% magazine size bonus.

As a special case, when upgrading the rarity of items, if the new, highest tier rolls a type of bonus that is already on the weapon, it will take the place of the lower rarity tier bonus, which will be rerolled instead. This ensures that you always have a chance to get the maximum possible bonus, even when upgrading an item that already has that type of bonus on it.

Magazine Increases are Percentages

All magazine size rarity bonuses are standardized as percentages now. Even within subtypes, the base magazine size can vary widely from gun to gun and increasing the magazine size by a percentage scales better than adding a set number of rounds. Every bonus, even the common one on a weapon with the smallest clip size in the category, is high enough to ensure you’re actually gaining rounds.

General Tuning

Finally, I did some tuning of the rolls themselves. Some bonuses, such as Fire Rate, were previously overvalued and their benefits have been increased to bring them in-line with other bonus types. Others, like crit modifier, were undervalued and the maximum benefit you can get from that type is lower than it was previously.

As mentioned previously, these changes only affect new weapons created after the changes are in place and won’t affect the guns you have currently. Also, weapons that have set, non-random rolls (like the Zagger) aren’t changing. That’s also true of weapons where some rolls are set and other randomized. They’ll continue to use the old system.

These changes will be coming soon to a PTS near you! It’s a rather large change affecting almost every gun in the game, so once we updated PTS with the changes, please hop on, find new weapons, and note anything that seems unexpected so we can address things before they go live.

Why can't I upgrade any of the new or old weapons or shields? Only option is to attach mods.

Rashere
02-04-2015, 02:56 PM
Why can't I upgrade any of the new or old weapons or shields? Only option is to attach mods.

The salvage matrix is temporarily disabled. It'll be back up ASAP.

Alex leigh
02-04-2015, 09:58 PM
Some of my weapons are missing rolls now after that first patch.. I'm hoping second patch will fix this..

Upgraded my legendary VOT spanner to level 5695. It added falloff distance to the synergy and it only went up by 10 DMG/sec.
10 DMG/sec, really. Not worth the 25 Arkforge. How much damage is 10 more really going to do? Nothing. Before the update it would go up way more than 10. Not happy with that.

Dixie Cougar
02-04-2015, 10:11 PM
Upgraded my legendary VOT spanner to level 5695. It added falloff distance to the synergy and it only went up by 10 DMG/sec.
10 DMG/sec, really. Not worth the 25 Arkforge. How much damage is 10 more really going to do? Nothing. Before the update it would go up way more than 10. Not happy with that.

Weapon levels after 5500 don't matter, except as future proofing. There's a nice chart somewhere that illustrates how non-linear damage vs ego is.

Chump Norris
02-04-2015, 10:58 PM
Weapon levels after 5500 don't matter, except as future proofing. There's a nice chart somewhere that illustrates how non-linear damage vs ego is.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag464/lenzdude/e3ylQtk1_zps325de4ae.png

There you go Dixie.

Dixie Cougar
02-05-2015, 12:27 AM
There you go Dixie.

Yes! I wish I could post that as my clan motd. People are making all kinds of bad decisions about how to spend arkforge, etc. without it.

Claydough
02-05-2015, 12:50 AM
Well, first impressions...

First weapon i upgraded was a hellfire AR
Dmg
mag
Crit
And rolled orange acc roll

Had abit of a chuckle and tryed my second choice.
Crit
Reload
Fire rate

I then upgraded hoping for the best and got it

Crit
Reload
Dmg
Fire rate

Much more damage over my old hellfire AR. And it is possible to turn an average gun into a fairly desent gun.

Killerboi5000
02-05-2015, 07:02 AM
Got an oj MK IV at a siege. No white and no purple rolls. What?!

r1p
02-05-2015, 08:13 AM
There you go Dixie.

Does anyone know if there is a file with the data that was used to create this chart anywhere?

Dixie Cougar
02-05-2015, 09:46 AM
Does anyone know if there is a file with the data that was used to create this chart anywhere?

There is a considerable amount of data here (http://defiance.antilectual.com/archive/index.php?thread-19.html) but I don't think it was used to actually generate the chart.

Nioni
02-05-2015, 11:27 AM
Finally, I did some tuning of the rolls themselves. Some bonuses, such as Fire Rate, were previously overvalued and their benefits have been increased to bring them in-line with other bonus types. Others, like crit modifier, were undervalued and the maximum benefit you can get from that type is lower than it was previously.

I'm confused, could you explain this part for me? Overvalued and undervalued by whom? The players, or the system? And if -for example- fire rate is overvalued by either the players or the system, wouldn't increasing its effects make it even more overvalued? Same with crit: if it's undervalued, then lowering the bonus would make it even worse.