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View Full Version : If cronk being removed doesn't open the devs eyes....



Psycroww
01-18-2015, 10:39 AM
Alright, you reward us for your downtime which is kind of sad to be honest. These updates should take place when the servers do their daily reset.

Anyways, the fact that you give us a 100% arkforge bonus and we have to run the fastest co op being cronk to finally get a decent amount of arkforge is ridiculous. 21 AF a run, each run is 5 minutes, you do the math. That is 12 runs a hour equaling 252 AF a hour.... that is seriously a joke that we have to resort to almost 24 runs with a 100% boost just to upgrade 1 weapon. Which is also equivalent to 20 dollars via bit store. AND YOU GUYS REMOVED IT for what? Trying to get things we deserve? Your rewards are a joke and have been for a very long time. You can't tell me a white mod, a blue weapon and 2-6 arkforge is a reward.

If that isn't a sign that arkforge is such a low reward given to players, then i dont know what is. All I can say is it needs to change.

Jet1337
01-18-2015, 10:41 AM
Island of Lost Soldiers if just as fast if not faster if you hop the barriers.

Nefarious
01-18-2015, 10:49 AM
What? Ark Forge is supposed to be a supplementary thing. We are not supposed to make it hand over fist to constantly to be able to re-roll mastery on weapons or making OJ gear with it as a everyday thing.

Psycroww
01-18-2015, 10:50 AM
Island of Lost Soldiers if just as fast if not faster if you hop the barriers.

You missed the point of my thread. Arkfalls used to give 40-80 AF. I understand what co-ops are fastest. My point of this thread is to show the devs how sad the arkforge we get and how it is given. Even with the 100% boost they gave us, we only get half the amount of what we used to when we did arkfalls and other things. We shouldn't have to be limited to such a dumbed down version of doing things WITHOUT a 100% boost. We shouldn't have to rush through these co op maps as fast as possible in the 3 days to get a chance of upgrading multiple weapons. I can only average 8-12 runs before my head wants to explode and I want to stop playing.

Psycroww
01-18-2015, 10:55 AM
What? Ark Forge is supposed to be a supplementary thing. We are not supposed to make it hand over fist to constantly to be able to re-roll mastery on weapons or making OJ gear with it as a everyday thing.

So in your mind, its okay that we used to get around 40 arkforge based off of our score in doing things, but now we get 2-12 is okay? Look at it from the standpoint of a casual player. Someone who only has an hour or so a day to play. It would take them close to a month, if not more to get 500 af to UPGRADE ONE WEAPON. We should atleast get 21 arkforge to begin with. Not from 100% boost. The rewards are a joke, and if you wish to argue that, argue that with someone who has patience to tolerate ignorance.

SirServed
01-18-2015, 12:01 PM
Anyways, the fact that you give us a 100% arkforge bonus and we have to run the fastest co op being cronk to finally get a decent amount of arkforge is ridiculous. 21 AF a run, each run is 5 minutes, you do the math. That is 12 runs a hour equaling 252 AF a hour.... that is seriously a joke that we have to resort to almost 24 runs with a 100% boost just to upgrade 1 weapon. Which is also equivalent to 20 dollars via bit store. AND YOU GUYS REMOVED IT for what? Trying to get things we deserve?
Time to zoom that point of view out. Let's pretend the game is bigger than what your clan was doing and that there was an exploit to finish the map in half the time that your clan was taking. Those guys were upgrading 1 weapon every hour for no real work. Any questions?

Nefarious
01-18-2015, 12:13 PM
So in your mind, its okay that we used to get around 40 arkforge based off of our score in doing things, but now we get 2-12 is okay? Look at it from the standpoint of a casual player. Someone who only has an hour or so a day to play. It would take them close to a month, if not more to get 500 af to UPGRADE ONE WEAPON. We should atleast get 21 arkforge to begin with. Not from 100% boost. The rewards are a joke, and if you wish to argue that, argue that with someone who has patience to tolerate ignorance.

See people only want to look at the Ark Forge gains from just Ark Falls and not everything as a whole. You don't only get Ark Forge from doing Ark Falls you know. I land 20 AF from lock boxes between key boxes and contract boxes all the time and just recently I got a 100. Ark Forge from daily and weekly lock boxes. Staying and finishing conflict sites I get 1-2. Messing around and fighting the War Master is like 8 right there. It all adds up over time.

And although Im a hardcore player and know how to squeeze the game for its Ark Forge I go after it pretty casually and don't have a problem with getting pleasing amounts.

Chris Robet
01-18-2015, 12:23 PM
Defiance is an mmo and unlike most mmos it isn't very grindy so when they introduce a few grindy elements into the game do we really have the right to complain?

Dixie Cougar
01-18-2015, 12:30 PM
Defiance is an mmo and unlike most mmos it isn't very grindy so when they introduce a few grindy elements into the game do we really have the right to complain?

Sure, some people choose this game because of the lower emphasis on grinding.

Holy Bahamut3
01-18-2015, 01:30 PM
Sure, some people choose this game because of the lower emphasis on grinding.

Less grindy, more shooty. Lol

Markeen
01-18-2015, 02:16 PM
I feel like people are just finding any reason to complain now. Really? REALLY? R E A L L Y???? If any of you think speed runs are what got the co op pulled you are more oblivious than you think the devs are or you're just lying to yourself trying to act innocent. Either way, I'm LOLing here reading about all of you complaining that you can't play 1 co op map. There are others you know.

I get arkforge from just about every event in the game. It all adds up. Like a person above stated. You people just want everything handed to you freely with no effort. That to me implies you have no in game skill. Try playing the game as intended for once and enjoy it. I know I do.

Grey Dawn
01-18-2015, 03:05 PM
Sure, some people choose this game because of the lower emphasis on grinding.

Well that ended with 1.5.

Quite honestly, I don't mind grind in games (having cut my teeth back in the day when grind actually meant something ... and not what most people nowadays thinks it means). However, for me not to mind the grind, the end result has to be worth while. The worth while result was destroyed when encryption was implemented and the ability to re-roll rarity bonuses was nixed. Both those things would have given the player base something to work for while doing all this grinding - the ability to plan and take their favorite weapons and upgrade them to perfection. As it is now, the game is nothing but one big RNG grind with little reward to those who stick around to see the EGO cap. Instead of a game focused on player retention, Defiance has, instead, alienated many of the very good veteran players and has become a turnstile game.

TNT Shadowz
01-18-2015, 03:58 PM
Please tell me what skill is in this game Markeen

stefanies
01-18-2015, 05:34 PM
Please tell me what skill is in this game...

Get blindfolded....shoot.

Psycroww
01-18-2015, 05:52 PM
Time to zoom that point of view out. Let's pretend the game is bigger than what your clan was doing and that there was an exploit to finish the map in half the time that your clan was taking. Those guys were upgrading 1 weapon every hour for no real work. Any questions?


Let's not keep that point of view so narrow, being in a clan doesn't define what an individual in it does. Just because my clan was doing it, doesn't mean that's all I was doing. I stopped after the 6th run and didn't do it again because it made me not want to play the game. Since that's all the majority of people were doing in the game was farming arkforge, (I wonder why 80% of NA was farming arkforge if it was so easy to obtain or receive without the bonus, get a clue), I decided to finish up some pursuits. Now stop viewing this post as a complaint of the runs. I don't give a **** about the co-ops nor do I care about the exploits given. My POINT was with a 100% boost, the reward is still sad. You got double or triple that before they changed the reward system. 21 a run, when you got that before with no bonus. It's quite sad how people hop on the band wagon and assume I want things handed to me. I don't want things handed to me, at the same time I don't want a 100% bonus that was only given to me in the first place because of their fail of a downtime. I just want the rewards to be rewarding. Like I said, you give a 100 bonus and the rewards finally start reaching a rewarding process that you either have to exploit or run 50 times. It's funny you mention exploiting because if rewards were fine as is, there would be no need to exploit a co op to take full effect of that bonus.

SirServed
01-18-2015, 06:08 PM
Let's not keep that point of view so narrow, being in a clan doesn't define what an individual in it does. Just because my clan was doing it, doesn't mean that's all I was doing. I stopped after the 6th run and didn't do it again because it made me not want to play the game. Since that's all the majority of people were doing in the game was farming arkforge, (I wonder why 80% of NA was farming arkforge if it was so easy to obtain or receive without the bonus, get a clue), I decided to finish up some pursuits. Now stop viewing this post as a complaint of the runs. I don't give a **** about the co-ops nor do I care about the exploits given. My POINT was with a 100% boost, the reward is still sad. You got double or triple that before they changed the reward system. 21 a run, when you got that before with no bonus. It's quite sad how people hop on the band wagon and assume I want things handed to me. I don't want things handed to me, at the same time I don't want a 100% bonus that was only given to me in the first place because of their fail of a downtime. I just want the rewards to be rewarding. Like I said, you give a 100 bonus and the rewards finally start reaching a rewarding process that you either have to exploit or run 50 times. It's funny you mention exploiting because if rewards were fine as is, there would be no need to exploit a co op to take full effect of that bonus.
Human Nature. There will always be at least 1 person that will see an opportunity and take it, regardless of the consequence. You used your clan's run as an example but the fact still stands that people were openly exploiting it. As for the actual award rate of Arkforge, it's fine. The way it used to drop substantially reduced its value, and that's bad for business. The changes made to Arkforge drops made it feel like something you earned, not something that's supposed to be given to you for simply participating.

Psycroww
01-18-2015, 09:55 PM
Human Nature. There will always be at least 1 person that will see an opportunity and take it, regardless of the consequence. You used your clan's run as an example but the fact still stands that people were openly exploiting it. As for the actual award rate of Arkforge, it's fine. The way it used to drop substantially reduced its value, and that's bad for business. The changes made to Arkforge drops made it feel like something you earned, not something that's supposed to be given to you for simply participating.

I agree with the human nature, but man I just don't see the rewards being rewarding and that's where I stand. I don't feel rewarded when i do things and I get 2-8 arkforge with a fake score. I'd prefer for score to be based off of damage, I would prefer that if I rank number 1 in co-ops with 90-150 kills etc, I think I should get more then the person who sat their, exploiting a double core glitch and gets the same arkforge reward as I did for doing all the work. I don't see receiving 20 arkforge for doing things as a detriment to business. Not everyone has time and money as a luxury to play. Receiving 2 arkforge for a minor arkfall or 12 arkforge for the hardest instance just is not truly a reward in my mind.

Dixie Cougar
01-18-2015, 10:18 PM
I would like to know what kind of AF is coming out of expeditions as that will become a major factor soon.

Konzeptionz
01-19-2015, 03:27 AM
As for the actual award rate of Arkforge, it's fine. The way it used to drop substantially reduced its value, and that's bad for business.

And this is what defines a Pay to Win game. When it's significantly more efficient to spend 2 hours earning money IRL, than farming currency in-game, THAT is bad for business. (in the long run anyway.) When a 100% AF boost is the only way for the average player to compete with those who choose to buy AF, you know there is a problem. When the main method these players were using to compete, is removed, then it's a serious problem. You can't honestly be viewing this as anything other than a cash grab.

There are much better ways from Trion to make money. Just take a look at some of the most popular free to play games: Their primary source of income is through cosmetic items. (League of Legends, Runescape, Team Fortress 2, ect.)

Dixie Cougar
01-19-2015, 03:56 AM
And this is what defines a Pay to Win game. When it's significantly more efficient to spend 2 hours earning money IRL, than farming currency in-game, THAT is bad for business. (in the long run anyway.) When a 100% AF boost is the only way for the average player to compete with those who choose to buy AF, you know there is a problem. When the main method these players were using to compete, is removed, then it's a serious problem. You can't honestly be viewing this as anything other than a cash grab.

There are much better ways from Trion to make money. Just take a look at some of the most popular free to play games: Their primary source of income is through cosmetic items. (League of Legends, Counter-Strike, Team Fortress 2, ect.)

I was just telling someone about TF2's monetization strategy in Teamspeak. It really is a great system that hasn't significantly hurt the game's balance. Obviously Defi is not the same type of game, but I think it's safe to say that a cosmetic oriented revenue model is a proven one.

And as you say... if people are back to back farming Cronkhite in 5 minute runs with 100% AF boost they are effectively working for very roughly $10 an hour and doing something that most people wouldn't consider fun (running the same piece of content 12 times in one hour). Would you like fries with that?

Tex_Arcana
01-19-2015, 12:02 PM
Cause:



And as you say... if people are back to back farming Cronkhite in 5 minute runs with 100% AF boost they are effectively working for very roughly $10 an hour and doing something that most people wouldn't consider fun (running the same piece of content 12 times in one hour).
Effect:
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/02/-GIF-When-Im-at-a-family-dinner-party-with-all-boring-adults-GIFS.gif

cmpowell
01-19-2015, 01:17 PM
I have to agree with op the af awards need to be bigger the only other way to get 20af this weekend, from a single activity, was to farm a score of 200k which didn't happen at or doesn't happen at any actual event(the alamo and sutro are the only places i know how to do this). I'm not saying we should go back to the original drop rate and i don't think the op is either, but i do think that doubling them would be appropriate. i think that 1 af per every 5-7k in points starting at the 5-7k in points and not the min 30k, or is it 22k now, in points would be reasonable reward since they not only changed how we got rewards but how we score points when they implemented these changes

SirServed
01-19-2015, 01:58 PM
And this is what defines a Pay to Win game. When it's significantly more efficient to spend 2 hours earning money IRL, than farming currency in-game, THAT is bad for business. (in the long run anyway.) When a 100% AF boost is the only way for the average player to compete with those who choose to buy AF, you know there is a problem. When the main method these players were using to compete, is removed, then it's a serious problem. You can't honestly be viewing this as anything other than a cash grab.
All the Arkforge in the world won't help you "win" Defiance and it sure as hell doesn't make you a better player. How many weapons does a player objectively need to get by in any situation the game can throw at them? Short-Mid Range + Long Range + Explosive + Crit Pistol = 4. Assuming each item is Epic when received, that's 2000 AF that you need to be competitive in your career in this game. The rest is just convenient, the same way buying AF out of the store is.

cmpowell
01-19-2015, 02:07 PM
of course depending on when you get those weapons and if I only wanted to use the same syn and nano for the entire time I ever play the game, lol

WhiteStrike
01-19-2015, 02:08 PM
All the Arkforge in the world won't help you "win" Defiance and it sure as hell doesn't make you a better player. How many weapons does a player objectively need to get by in any situation the game can throw at them? Short-Mid Range + Long Range + Explosive + Crit Pistol = 4. Assuming each item is Epic when received, that's 2000 AF that you need to be competitive in your career in this game. The rest is just convenient, the same way buying AF out of the store is.

Had the fact that some people like to have multiple amazing weapons,mastery re-rolls,EGO upgrades...that number just seems bigger niw doesn't it?

SirServed
01-19-2015, 02:15 PM
Had the fact that some people like to have multiple amazing weapons,mastery re-rolls,EGO upgrades...that number just seems bigger niw doesn't it?
Some players spend time to gain AF while others spend money. What people like on top of the necessary is a form of convenience. There was a point in the game in which Arkforge did not exist, you could not upgrade the EGO nor Rarity on your weapon and you were stuck with whatever mastery it popped out. Thanks for proving my point.

Graywolfe
01-19-2015, 02:49 PM
Don't forget a shield and maybe a bit of a ego boost at the end so maybe closer to 3k in AF. At least that is my goal to have picked by the time i max out.

Bonehead
01-19-2015, 06:19 PM
Long story short, Arkforge is how they monetize the game.

Drop rates will stay very low because...


Wait for it...


It's for sale in the bit store.

orcface
01-19-2015, 06:48 PM
Have any of the staff even said "Boo!" about the subject? I admit I have not been using a microscope but I have not noticed one dev comment about it. That being said now I will search for it.

Major Crapshot
01-19-2015, 07:09 PM
Long story short, Arkforge is how they monetize the game.

Drop rates will stay very low because...


Wait for it...


It's for sale in the bit store.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Give that man a cigar! :)

He gets it and he is absolutely correct in his statements.

Monetization is the word... well, besides the Bird. :)

EDIT: SirServed gets it also. Sorry Sir. :)

heartbreak_courier
01-19-2015, 07:31 PM
And this is what defines a Pay to Win game. When it's significantly more efficient to spend 2 hours earning money IRL, than farming currency in-game, THAT is bad for business. (in the long run anyway.) When a 100% AF boost is the only way for the average player to compete with those who choose to buy AF, you know there is a problem. When the main method these players were using to compete, is removed, then it's a serious problem. You can't honestly be viewing this as anything other than a cash grab.

There are much better ways from Trion to make money. Just take a look at some of the most popular free to play games: Their primary source of income is through cosmetic items. (League of Legends, Runescape, Team Fortress 2, ect.)

I tend to disagree. The definition of P2W has become unreasonably fluid, but it came about because there were some early mobile games where you literally could not progress through the game without paying, and no amount of grinding would help that.

Defiance is not P2W. If anything, it's Pay for Convenience. Every F2P MMO I've played has monetized currency, and AF is Defiance's. With the exception of Runescape (which locks you out of a lot of content unless you subscribe), none of the games you listed are MMOs. It's tough for games like this to thrive on cosmetic purchases alone because they're one and done. AF, lockboxes, and boosts are probably their bread and butter, and I know similar items are usually bestsellers in other MMOs. SWTOR is practically kept afloat by them.

The drop rate for AF is another issue entirely. I consider myself a super-casual player, but I've never had problems staying competitive. I don't know if it's cynicism (probably is!) but I'm usually prepared to do some decent measure of grinding in MMOs, and compared to others, Defiance's AF grind doesn't come close to the levels of monotony I saw in EQ or early WoW. It's always seemed pretty reasonable to me, but that's my opinion.

Abaddon2013
01-20-2015, 11:11 AM
You might be lucky to get that 20 AF from your lockboxes and reputation supply crates but not everyone is that lucky. I myself have recieved maybe 100 AF from around 500 lockboxes and supply crates. I know AF is considered a premium in game curreny but the cost is rediculous. And 500 to upgrade 1 weapon to oj is a bit much.

Tex_Arcana
01-20-2015, 12:40 PM
By my rough calculation under the normal arkforge return system, I earn on average over 160 Arkforge a week.
This on a week where I do few Incursions or Sieges.
Based on that number, I am able to earn 640 or more Arkforge a month.
While I understand that many folks are re-rolling/upgrading; it would seem that the base supply of Arkforge is damned reasonable.
It should be noted that having become part of a solid Clan with members who help out each other in regard to getting maps done etc.: My Arkforge earning has improved vastly.
And Trion can color me happy in regard to this particular currency.
Ark Salvage on the other hand...wtf am I supposed to do with this ever-growing sack of shtako?

SirServed
01-20-2015, 03:05 PM
You might be lucky to get that 20 AF from your lockboxes and reputation supply crates but not everyone is that lucky. I myself have recieved maybe 100 AF from around 500 lockboxes and supply crates. I know AF is considered a premium in game curreny but the cost is rediculous. And 500 to upgrade 1 weapon to oj is a bit much.
Owning a Legendary weapon is a privilege, not an entitlement. The steep Arkforge cost reflects that they want this to be a meaningful decision on your part.

Fallen_Aingeal
01-20-2015, 03:25 PM
Owning a Legendary weapon is a privilege, not an entitlement. The steep Arkforge cost reflects that they want this to be a meaningful decision on your part.Agreed.

I mentioned in a thread, back when arkforge was first talked about, that upgrading should be stupid high to do.

If I remember correctly, I said the cost should require all 4 forms of currency. Scrip, salvage, arkforge, and cores.

I still think it needs to be looked at. Legendary's in this game are ridiculously easy to obtain. Either that, or introduce a T5 weapon and allow us to upgrade a T4, requiring all 4 currencies.

Dixie Cougar
01-20-2015, 03:35 PM
I would be more inclined to agree with the above comments if it weren't for the sheer amount of RNG-screw going on. 500 AF can get you a unicorn or a white elephant. 1000 AF can get you a good mastery or an endless circle of garbage ones. That, and not the drop rate or the nominal cost per transaction, is the real annoyance. I would happily pay 1000 or 1500 AF to oj a weapon or 150 to remaster if I could choose the bonus. All this exploiting, speedrunning, and other crap is merely a symptom of RNG disease and the overreliance on dicerolls as an endgame mechanic. The 'sploiters feel "cornered and desperate" and a trapped sploiter is the most dangerous... sploiter.

When I first heard of the amount of AF people were farming, I was jealous. Then I did some rough math and found out they were effectively working for $10 an hour. Not so jealous anymore, lol.

Nevertheless, the perception of artificial scarcity is not entirely unjustified and it can probably be corrected without leaving the game lacking for a revenue model. There are proven ways of monetizing a game that don't involve such a heavy reliance on randomness at critical points. Hell, people pay through the nose for TF2 crate keys that only contain cosmetics--got no problem with the randomness there.

Or, as I have said elsewhere, paraphrasing Clive Towers:


Attention. Anyone who is not with metal must report for amputation and rebirth at once! The RNG. We must all be released of our humanity and meld flesh with metal. Only then can we farm without sleep... the RNG... without fatigue, and without fail. The RNG. We're not waiting for orange weapons. RNG is now. Nothing will keep us from our mission. The RNG. This clan must function like a machine. We must all be a piece of the machine. Become the machine. Become the RNG. The RNG. The RNG!

Major Crapshot
01-20-2015, 03:35 PM
I would say that some eyes were definitely opened today. :)

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608008472941822710&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Bacon Overlord
01-20-2015, 07:12 PM
AF levels are fine. Drop rates are more than generous and just because you're having to work a little harder at getting a weapon or some gear shouldn't be cause to come on here and start the prozac wars.

Just deal with it or find a nice, new, shiny game to play.

Thorax The Dark
01-23-2015, 06:44 AM
its funny because the people who dont have enough time to play the game everyday make en excellent point which is never countered. people that have a life cant make promises to games like this. trion caters to both parties sometimes

Holy Bahamut3
01-23-2015, 10:36 AM
I'm dying as I'm reading all of this.

Back for my every-so-often check in on my beloved Defiance. When my friend told me Cronkite was removed, wow, I knew it would be a good read.

Looks like everything is same-old, with rewards that stayed nerfed. I can't tell if I think it is funny or just plain sad.

Oh, Defiance, the joy you could have continued to bring me.

I'm sorry, y'all, that you are still dealing with nonsense. I used to spent too much time, I think, feeling wound up and frustrated at some of the procedures in this game. I'm over it now, but I wish the people who stuck around could still enjoy it.

Hey, glad to see you're still poking around the forums. At least they don't disappoint in giving you new song material. Lol

Tex_Arcana
01-23-2015, 06:29 PM
I'll put forward a suggestion based on the system in one of the most popular F2p games out there: Introduce a weapon or perk that can only be bought which increases the users ability to earn Arkforge.
This other game has "premium" vehicles which, if bought not only have a higher earning coefficient, also have a higher xp gain for their crew.
I can see such a method being applied to a certain weapon, or (better idea?) Perk...
I won't mention the game here...because ToS.

Tex_Arcana
01-23-2015, 07:16 PM
And I now realize how this is the thin end of the PtW wedge; but the possibility is there...