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View Full Version : you need toopen the redeemable rewards cause i didnt know this game exsisted till F2P



Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 01:55 PM
it seems unfair that people who just got an xbox or didnt have defiance show in there region cause both me several 1000 others that missed out on getting the extra inventory slots and the extra costumes .

konstantinov
02-05-2015, 01:58 PM
it seems unfair that people who just got an xbox or didnt have defiance show in there region cause both me several 1000 others that missed out on getting the extra inventory slots and the extra costumes .

That's a personal problem and probably the most ridiculous complaint I've seen to date.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:08 PM
really and your a rude person with a big mouth.

cmpowell
02-05-2015, 02:11 PM
it really is kind of a lame reason for a complaint.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:14 PM
not really its seems fair to open for a week so anyone who missed out or where f2p so have a chance to get these bonuses too

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 02:14 PM
it seems unfair that people who just got an xbox or didnt have defiance show in there region cause both me several 1000 others that missed out on getting the extra inventory slots and the extra costumes .

"Houston, please confirm that the Earth's orbit has changed and now revolves around Sunslayer2015."

"Uhm, negative."

"Just checking, Houston."

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 02:14 PM
I missed them, its fair.

Tygra maneater
02-05-2015, 02:17 PM
The redeemable codes were a privilege for the players who bought the game when it first came out. They deserve to have some things that f2p don't have and can't get.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:19 PM
nathan go f youself im trying to give both me and others like f2p a chance to get some extra inventory slots which we missed out on and we just drop most have now droped 40$ and have gotten nothing close to what day 1 players have. your serious complianing we're asking for a chance to have a slight chance to earn these rewards.

Fallen_Aingeal
02-05-2015, 02:20 PM
Is this seriously the opinion of the OP?

Sickens me to see how much our youth have a feeling of entitlement! Instead of doing what needs to be done to receive a reward, just "Gimme gimme gimme. It isn't fair!"

Guess what, kid. Life isn't fair. There are plenty of things that you actually have to EARN.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 02:22 PM
Let's make the same request but for the longer-term players:

"Trion, I want my $150 back because I bought the Ultimate Edition, and that isn't fair because Sunslayer2015 here gets to play for free years later."

Just as ridiculous and just as ignorant of (a) Trion's business model, (b) the nature of the game's evolution, and (c) the time factors inherent in a long-term MMO's content, event, bonus, etc. staggered release window concept.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:23 PM
Tygra you are one of these *******s who just dont get people didnt know this game exsisted till free to play cause the region or state didnt even air this show inculding mine i had to watch both series on youtube.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 02:23 PM
nathan go f youself im trying to give both me and others like f2p a chance to get some extra inventory slots which we missed out on and we just drop most have now droped 40$ and have gotten nothing close to what day 1 players have. your serious complianing we're asking for a chance to have a slight chance to earn these rewards.

Are we really seeing someone whining about dropping $40 on a game for *extras* when the game started at $60, or $100, or $150 depending on edition?

Niner82
02-05-2015, 02:24 PM
Buy the game for $5 and you will have the rewards. It would be unfair to us people who have bought the game, for ftp players to get them for free when we paid for them. This is a ridiculous and petty thread.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:26 PM
like i said nathan more than once a good portion of people didnt EVEN KNOW THE GAME EXSTISTED TILL F2P IF I KNEW I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT. BUT LIKE IVE SAID I DIDNT CAUSE MY REGION DIDN'T AIR THE SHOW AND HAD NO KNOWLAGE OF GAME.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:29 PM
LOL MORE DAY 1 players with big mouths and dont add anything usefull to these post all they can do is just be ignorant trolls.

cmpowell
02-05-2015, 02:30 PM
if it makes you feel any better season 3 will most likely have codes you can redeem too and ppl who come after that wont be able to get those. they ended season one codes just before season 2 and season 2 codes ended a week after they aired

konstantinov
02-05-2015, 02:30 PM
like i said nathan more than once a good portion of people didnt EVEN KNOW THE GAME EXSTISTED TILL F2P IF I KNEW I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT. BUT LIKE IVE SAID I DIDNT CAUSE MY REGION DIDN'T AIR THE SHOW AND HAD NO KNOWLAGE OF GAME.

Do you not have the internet?

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 02:31 PM
I think this guy is on about the 100s of redeem codes that were obtainable throughout season one and the few from season two. Day one p2p players deserve those, not you or me. Even though I've probably spent as much as some players who've been here since day one.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 02:32 PM
LOL MORE DAY 1 players with big mouths and dont add anything usefull to these post all they can do is just be ignorant trolls.
This whole post is trolling. I bought regular edition for $5, It gives you good rewards. Had to buy dlc's too. Don't like it, don't play it. Plain and simple.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:34 PM
no i dont kon im at the libary right now posting these comment cause copmared to you rich ***** a lot of people cant afford these add ons or the boost.

Fallen_Aingeal
02-05-2015, 02:35 PM
no i dont kon im at the libary right now posting these comment cause copmared to you rich ***** a lot of people cant afford these add ons or the boost.How do you play Defiance without internet?

From the library?

I think I see your problem...

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:36 PM
more day 1 trolls all i ask for is a chance for anyone who missed out like a week or few days to have the same chances you did. but now youjust have to be a holes a bash any new ideas.

konstantinov
02-05-2015, 02:37 PM
no i dont kon im at the libary right now posting these comment cause copmared to you rich ***** a lot of people cant afford these add ons or the boost.

If you don't have internet then you can't play Defiance. It's an online game only. Your response made everything you have said invalid.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 02:37 PM
How do you play Defiance without internet?

From the library?

I think I see your problem...

LOOOOOL

Omg, too funny.... just... too... funny

Niner82
02-05-2015, 02:38 PM
I think this guy is on about the 100s of redeem codes that were obtainable throughout season one and the few from season two. Day one p2p players deserve those, not you or me. Even though I've probably spent as much as some players who've been here since day one.
I missed out and I watch the show, but don't see me whining nor do I see you, like this guy. I am not a day 1 player either.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 02:38 PM
it seems unfair that people who just got an xbox or didnt have defiance show in there region cause both me several 1000 others that missed out on getting the extra inventory slots and the extra costumes .

And now for the post that is actually constructive:

The reason you are getting the type of responses you are getting is not the request, per se.

You could, for instance, have posted and said something like, "As a new player, is there any chance that we will see the old reward codes open up again in the future?"

Instead of a polite, tactful question or request, you instead went immediately into demanding, calling it unfair, and giving a rationale that was probably *trying* to give a logical reason for them to open the codes back up again that instead amounted to "do it because I came late to the party."

Sometimes, it is all about how you say something, y'know?

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:38 PM
fallen i use wifi at home with the short amout of time i can play online at home without it dissconnecting every 10 mins and every 2 hour update i only might have 20 mins to an hour a day at most on this game not like you.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 02:39 PM
This whole post is trolling. I bought regular edition for $5, It gives you good rewards. Had to buy dlc's too. Don't like it, don't play it. Plain and simple.

Well said my mortal enemy of ages. :D Also in my opinion it was not a well known game, BUT does that mean next time a not so well known game goes free to play all of vets should go over there and whine to get free stuff?

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 02:39 PM
more day 1 trolls all i ask for is a chance for anyone who missed out like a week or few days to have the same chances you did. but now youjust have to be a holes a bash any new ideas.

Dude what you're saying isn't an idea, you're asking for a handout that even I, after spending over 150 pound in four months don't feel I deserve.

Midnight
02-05-2015, 02:40 PM
And now for the post that is actually constructive:

The reason you are getting the type of responses you are getting is not the request, per se.

You could, for instance, have posted and said something like, "As a new player, is there any chance that we will see the old reward codes open up again in the future?"

Instead of a polite, tactful question or request, you instead went immediately into demanding, calling it unfair, and giving a rationale that was probably *trying* to give a logical reason for them to open the codes back up again that instead amounted to "do it because I came late to the party."

Sometimes, it is all about how you say something, y'know?

Ding! Winning!

Niner82
02-05-2015, 02:41 PM
Dude what you're saying isn't an idea, you're asking for a handout that even I, after spending over 150 pound in four months don't feel I deserve. Well said man.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:42 PM
niner would you like a chance to get a costume you missed out on or extra inventory ave haslots you may have missed cause you may have had to work that day . its seem fair to give a small chance to people who have missed out its not even giving anything away cause these rewars where allready released it just giving another crack at it.

Jimmie Mac
02-05-2015, 02:43 PM
This whole post is trolling. I bought regular edition for $5, It gives you good rewards. Had to buy dlc's too. Don't like it, don't play it. Plain and simple.

I completely agree. I got hooked (sucked in?? hahaha) by Trion's decision to move to F2P. I was having so much fun playing I ended up purchasing the Season Pass and all the DLC's. No complaints about the money I spent. It was all worth it and I feel like I'm aiding in Trion's ability to keep this game running and make improvements (bug fixes and new content).

r1p
02-05-2015, 02:43 PM
like i said nathan more than once a good portion of people didnt EVEN KNOW THE GAME EXSTISTED TILL F2P IF I KNEW I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT. BUT LIKE IVE SAID I DIDNT CAUSE MY REGION DIDN'T AIR THE SHOW AND HAD NO KNOWLAGE OF GAME.

The codes were an enticement for people to actually watch the TV show. The network that broadcasts the show receives money from advertisers for showing their commercials. The more people that watched the show, the more they could charge. What benefit does it do the network if the codes work forever? And yes, the codes were posted on the internet after the broadcast so that everyone didn't need to watch it, but this is presumably why the Season 1 codes were expired, and the Season 2 codes expired every week.

So the bottom line is that the very reason you didn't watch the show are the very reasons why you can't use the codes.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 02:44 PM
niner would you like a chance to get a costume you missed out on or extra inventory ave haslots you may have missed cause you may have had to work that day . its seem fair to give a small chance to people who have missed out its not even giving anything away cause these rewars where allready released it just giving another crack at it.

But the thing is the rewards are active for a week and you aren't going to miss out because of work. I have been laying since the early DLCs and have missed every single code and do you see me complaining?

konstantinov
02-05-2015, 02:44 PM
niner would you like a chance to get a costume you missed out on or extra inventory ave haslots you may have missed cause you may have had to work that day . its seem fair to give a small chance to people who have missed out its not even giving anything away cause these rewars where allready released it just giving another crack at it.

That's like saying I want to pay the 1950 Ferrari price for a 2015 Ferrari.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:46 PM
great these trolls continue to be useless and have nothing better to do than be pricks.

Fallen_Aingeal
02-05-2015, 02:48 PM
fallen i use wifi at home with the short amout of time i can play online at home without it dissconnecting every 10 mins and every 2 hour update i only might have 20 mins to an hour a day at most on this game not like you.
Wasn't aware you knew my playing times and habits. If this is the case, then you owe some serious back rent!

On a serious note. As was mentioned. The codes were released to entice players of the game to watch the show and vice-versa. The codes remained active for nearly a year. For you to say it's unfair not to have a chance at them, I rebut with, I think it would be unfair to re-release them unless they are prepared to compensate those of us that paid for the game+season pass/DLC.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to be able to comprehend this. So, my initial comment about entitlement stands.

JKG
02-05-2015, 02:49 PM
Look it doesn't matter if you were aware of the show/game or not it is what it is now. I didn't know about it till it was ftp im sure i missed out on alot of things but i dont complain the past is the past . I started f2p purchased the collectors edition an have spend about 30-40 dollars on bits so far dont regret it even whit all the lag an immature people on at times. I have a great clan to have a laugh whit an the idiocy that can be zone chat at times can be hilarious.

Jimmie Mac
02-05-2015, 02:51 PM
great these trolls continue to be useless and have nothing better to do than be pricks.

Kettle meet pot.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 02:53 PM
great the trolls continue.funny that every post i see that you same four are on it either bashing it or doing nothing to help this situation. you just continue to be pricks.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 02:56 PM
great the trolls continue.funny that every post i see that you same four are on it either bashing it or doing nothing to help this situation. you just continue to be pricks.

I mean maybe if you thought your posts through before posting there would be no need to put them down.

Fallen_Aingeal
02-05-2015, 02:56 PM
great the trolls continue.funny that every post i see that you same four are on it either bashing it or doing nothing to help this situation. you just continue to be pricks.That's just it. There isn't a "situation that needs help".

There's an entitled "prick", as you say, complaining about not benefiting the same as those that were here before you. It belittles your argument the more you rant and whine.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 02:59 PM
I'm done with this thread. Mentioned a fair few times why WE don't deserve those codes and how it's fair and all I've seen you do is insult people.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 03:00 PM
You know, I think the gas station needs to open up their tanks for 1989 prices again for my wife. You know, when it was around a dollar or less per gallon.

I mean, she was just a newborn at that time. She didn't even know gasoline EXISTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

dremora ven0m
02-05-2015, 03:01 PM
Is this seriously the opinion of the OP?

Sickens me to see how much our youth have a feeling of entitlement! Instead of doing what needs to be done to receive a reward, just "Gimme gimme gimme. It isn't fair!"

Guess what, kid. Life isn't fair. There are plenty of things that you actually have to EARN.

dude zone chat on xbox eu is just full of n00bs asking eg how to reload weapons (ok thats an exaggeration)
when you give them an answer they ask again 5mins later. Then they start asking for scrip n free oj weapons! wtf
I just tell they to google anything they need to k ow as I did.
Yes I do help new players but not whining 1s who to lazy to help themselves.

I am a f2p user also, as regards extra inventory slots hmm do what i did n buy them from the store. same place you can also purchase loadouts, outfits n extra keycode capacity!

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:04 PM
niner would you like a chance to get a costume you missed out on or extra inventory ave haslots you may have missed cause you may have had to work that day . its seem fair to give a small chance to people who have missed out its not even giving anything away cause these rewars where allready released it just giving another crack at it.
I do work and miss out on a lot of play time, but I don't blame it on Trion for not giving me a chance. That's life dude, family before gaming. You laying and waiting for people to comment only says you want the attention. Therefore you are the troll. It's not fair to us people who pay for content.

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 03:06 PM
more trolls still being *****.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:07 PM
You know, I think the gas station needs to open up their tanks for 1989 prices again for my wife. You know, when it was around a dollar or less per gallon.

I mean, she was just a newborn at that time. She didn't even know gasoline EXISTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Lmao funny man.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:08 PM
more trolls still being *****.

Seeing as you are the only one who seems to think rewards should just be handed out I'm just going to wonder who the troll is.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:09 PM
more trolls still being *****.
Only one I see is the person who made this thread.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 03:09 PM
Wait? I think I just caught on: We're all rich, don't work, and can stay home all day and play Defiance and just drop money on it hand over fist?

Okay, now I'm pissed.

Where was the line for this, and why am I still working for a living?

Sunslayer2015
02-05-2015, 03:10 PM
and more trolling from the same people

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:10 PM
Only one I see is the person who made this thread.

So you don't think I'm a troll anymore buddy. :'( I love you to man. Come here for a big goat hug!!

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:14 PM
So you don't think I'm a troll anymore buddy. :'( I love you to man. Come here for a big goat hug!! Not at the moment so don't ruin it. :)

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:16 PM
Wait? I think I just caught on: We're all rich, don't work, and can stay home all day and play Defiance and just drop money on it hand over fist?

Okay, now I'm pissed.

Where was the line for this, and why am I still working for a living?
I don't feel like working all week, so can you just hand me my pay check along with next week's so I can support my family. Oh and throw in a bonus too. :)

Ryker Vorton
02-05-2015, 03:17 PM
That's a personal problem and probably the most ridiculous complaint I've seen to date.

I couldn't agree anymore!

I joined the game very shortly after it became f2p because until then i didn't even knew the show existed, much less the game and i don't feel in any way that I should be getting the same bonuses as those who spent actual money in the game had. Granted i spent my quota of cash afterwards, but i got what i've paid for in a perfectly fair fashion, no need to ask anything else.

latorche01
02-05-2015, 03:20 PM
Hi Sunslayer2015
You have the possibility to buy an cdkey with lots of bonuse (some are at -70%)

http://www.dlcompare.com/games/cd-key-download-defiance-479


http://www.onlinekeystore.com/browse/term/defiance

Tex_Arcana
02-05-2015, 03:30 PM
And just so the OP knows: The reason you're only seeing a handful of people post is because so many people that read this thread from beginning to end realise how silly the entire original complaint/request is.
Most of us adults understand the entire consumer/consumption economy to the extent we realise there are no handouts for people who missed the ship when it sailed.
Your best bet is earn some money: Buy the DLC pack when it's on sale ($20 USD typically), and maybe add some inventory slots when THEY are on sale if money is a problem.

TNT Shadowz
02-05-2015, 03:30 PM
great the trolls continue.funny that every post i see that you same four are on it either bashing it or doing nothing to help this situation. you just continue to be pricks.

Let me be damn straight you ****** you are basically asking like ooh I missed the Christmas sale can I still have 30% off

WhiteStrike
02-05-2015, 03:37 PM
What .the.hell.just happened?OP,are you serious?-_-"

Niner82
02-05-2015, 03:50 PM
I don't feel like working all week, so can you just hand me my pay check along with next week's so I can support my family. Oh and throw in a bonus too. :)
Pretty much same message as this post lmao.

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 03:57 PM
Pretty much same message as this post lmao.

Actually, I need back pay. You see, I didn't work for this company until this year, so I need back pay for every year before that since I reached the age to legally work. That won't be a problem for you, will it?

nathanpbutler
02-05-2015, 04:02 PM
Actually, I think I figured this whole thing out. This is a member of the Obama administration trolling us, testing out the rationale for a new entitlement.

Well played, Mr. President. Well played.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 04:06 PM
Actually, I need back pay. You see, I didn't work for this company until this year, so I need back pay for every year before that since I reached the age to legally work. That won't be a problem for you, will it?
lol there you go.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 04:07 PM
Actually, I think I figured this whole thing out. This is a member of the Obama administration trolling us, testing out the rationale for a new entitlement.

Well played, Mr. President. Well played.
I don't think he is qualified enough, even for working with the President. He doesn't have Internet, he has WIFI, LMAO.

Atticus Batman
02-05-2015, 04:12 PM
Actually, I need back pay. You see, I didn't work for this company until this year, so I need back pay for every year before that since I reached the age to legally work. That won't be a problem for you, will it?

Where can I sign up?

Op, sorry you just got the game, but you are not entitled to limited edition things just because you are new. That would be like saying. Ooh I just got an Xbox 1 for free, so microsoft HAS to give me a free upgrade to a special edition onee with all the stuff they already released, because it is my first Xbox 1. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

This is an MMO so there will always be limited edition stuff coming and going. Monday starts a limited Valentines day event with stuff that can only be aquired during that event, for example.

If it is all about inventory, then buy the inventory space from the bit shop, or buy a new copy of the game for cheap to get the same benefits that everyone else who bought the game has, or buy the digital deluxe upgrade for those benefits.

All those codes were just limited edition incentives to get people to watch the show and play the game. None of it is required or needed to enjoy the game.

Btw Wi-fi is the biggest reseaon for all of your disconects. All online games work better, especially on console, if you actually wire in to your router/modem.

KILLSHOT707
02-05-2015, 04:17 PM
it seems unfair that people who just got an xbox or didnt have defiance show in there region cause both me several 1000 others that missed out on getting the extra inventory slots and the extra costumes .
You are FREE TO PLAY. We paid. You got your FREE game, enjoy. If you want more ask your mom to kick down some cash and buy what you want. I spend money on this game all the time and by doing so it helps to keep it going.

Zoomer12
02-05-2015, 04:26 PM
Whatever the ops opinion is, attacking him isn't cool at all. There's several players who should be ashamed of themselves and what they have said.

If you attack someone then they attack back. It wasn't needed at all.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 04:28 PM
Whatever the ops opinion is, attacking him isn't cool at all. There's several players who should be ashamed of themselves and what they have said.

If you attack someone then they attack back. It wasn't needed at all.

He was the one attacking though, the people against it were making clear logical points and the OP was just saying F you, I shouldn't listen to you because I'm always right.

Niner82
02-05-2015, 05:08 PM
He was the one attacking though, the people against it were making clear logical points and the OP was just saying F you, I shouldn't listen to you because I'm always right.
Exactly, we weren't cussing at him, just making logical arguments. He jumped on the defensive bandwagon.

DEMON
02-05-2015, 05:16 PM
To the OP a little story for you.....


Back in late 2012 I happened to stumble on a small posting on a tech blog about a game in development that was novel in concept... a collaboration between a TV network and a gaming company. That events on the show would effect events in game and vice versa. I still feeling stung over having 2 beloved games pulled out from me by corporate arrogance ( can you say NC Soft??? ) was intrigued by the idea so I googled and binged my way to find my way to Trion and tossed my name in the hat hoping to get at least a shot at the BETA fate was kind to me and I was actually granted a coveted ALPHA slot. I played , and played and liked it it enough to toss down my hard earned cash and preordered the game and the additional Season Pass ( $100.00/ $40.00 respectively). Through the Alpha and Beta stages I played and joined others in the frustrating code chase scouring every banner ad, replaying every commercial, pouring over the forums all for codes. Then came the show's debut and low and behold MORE codes were announced and so yet another chase Off I went and since launch played through Nerfs, nigh invincible mobs, less than stellar DLC's, lagfests, and all sorts of glitches but I stayed with it. Then as the games Second anniversary approached came the announcement it was going F2P. what I had bought was now available to all. what compensation did I get for my initial ( and subsequent bit store ) investment. A cache of Arkforge And boosts valued at perhaps 1/4th of my investment. Am I complaining NO should I ? Maybe I'm sure more than a few of us remaining holders of the "Old School" badge may have a thing or two to say but to have someone say what we were granted for our faith is an unfair advantage against F2Pers is about as sensible as walking barefoot over a lava field....sorry...not gonna happen ( at least one hopes) As others have pointed out many of our unfair advantages can be gained with a bit of looking in the right places...Try it...you might gain a bit of respect along the way

iFantastical
02-05-2015, 05:54 PM
Where can I sign up?

Op, sorry you just got the game, but you are not entitled to limited edition things just because you are new. That would be like saying. Ooh I just got an Xbox 1 for free, so microsoft HAS to give me a free upgrade to a special edition onee with all the stuff they already released, because it is my first Xbox 1. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

This is an MMO so there will always be limited edition stuff coming and going. Monday starts a limited Valentines day event with stuff that can only be aquired during that event, for example.

If it is all about inventory, then buy the inventory space from the bit shop, or buy a new copy of the game for cheap to get the same benefits that everyone else who bought the game has, or buy the digital deluxe upgrade for those benefits.

All those codes were just limited edition incentives to get people to watch the show and play the game. None of it is required or needed to enjoy the game.

Btw Wi-fi is the biggest reseaon for all of your disconects. All online games work better, especially on console, if you actually wire in to your router/modem.

^ The truth. And said in a constructive matter, now let's get on with our lives everybody.

PhantasieTrion
02-05-2015, 06:13 PM
Hi Guys

While this is an interesting thread to read through, I'm going to close it since it seems to have gotten into personal attacks pretty quickly :).

--Phantasie