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Rashere
02-05-2015, 03:04 PM
I've been taking a look at the game economy lately, specifically the rate at which you gain currencies, and am going to make some changes to shift rewards more towards skill than luck. I'm expecting this will go out with the Alcatraz update.

TL;DR version: I'm removing woot loot and increasing the rewards given out for event score.

The longer version:
Woot loot is the term for the items that a player spews out to everyone around them when they gain EGO ratings, level up weapons, vehicles, etc. It's a fun idea, sharing the celebration of success, but presents some problems when trying to get a handle on the balance of the game economy. Basically, the amount of woot loot you get, and its conversion to scrip or salvage income, is entirely dependent upon how many players are around you and their EGO rating. This has a huge variance. Its not uncommon for woot loot to make up anywhere from 0% to 80% of the income for a play session, though the average is about 25%.

Woot loot is also not tied to the skill or success of the player gaining the loot. It's just about being in the right place at the right time. I've been wanting to increase the rewards players get for being skillful in events for a while, but the variable income from woot loot has made that difficult to do in a balanced way.

To address this, I'm going to remove woot loot and shift those rewards to what you get for high scores in events, increasing them by roughly 25%. This keeps the currency income rate about what it is now, but makes it more consistent and puts it in the hands of the players, rewarding them more for doing well in events instead of just being lucky.

Rashere

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:07 PM
Thank you rashere you are the greatest!!

Fuzzy
02-05-2015, 03:08 PM
That sounds absolutely brilliant, Rashere! Looking forward to seeing more rewards in the future :)

Ryker Vorton
02-05-2015, 03:14 PM
This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

Dixie Cougar
02-05-2015, 03:16 PM
Yeah, it would be great if people spamming low DPS weapons to score farm were reined in. Other than that this seems like a good idea.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:17 PM
This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

It's a start though so from here we will hopefully build on this like a stepping stone and continue to inspire greatness (and this is why I fail essays I just start rambling and forget what I was originally saying)

Rashere
02-05-2015, 03:21 PM
This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

It definitely bumps my priority on adjusting how scoring works.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:25 PM
It definitely bumps my priority on adjusting how scoring works.

So you can confirm that you are making it so that spamming a BMG is not going to give you first every time?

Ryker Vorton
02-05-2015, 03:28 PM
It definitely bumps my priority on adjusting how scoring works.

I knew we could count on you!!

To be honest, i am very happy and satisfied with the direction the changes in Defiance are heading :cool:

Rashere
02-05-2015, 03:29 PM
So you can confirm that you are making it so that spamming a BMG is not going to give you first every time?

Nope! Until I actually dig into it a bit and decide what needs to change, I can't confirm anything. But the goal would be to ensure skillful actions provide better rewards.

Holy Bahamut3
02-05-2015, 03:30 PM
Finally a Dev who gets it. We've been saying this from the very beginning. WOOHOO!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CihMUKzbbyE/VCMjFbHafRI/AAAAAAABaC0/_fOo-yWoxPE/s1600/untz21.gif

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 03:30 PM
Rashere, please buff the cerberus & its turret. It desperately needs it.

Also, this is interesting. Will it only affect scrip or actual rewards you get? Guns etc.. and how about pvp & co-op rewards? Are they getting looked into too? Lots of questions I know. Sorry

Rashere
02-05-2015, 03:32 PM
Rashere, please buff the cerberus & its turret. It desperately needs it.

Also, this is interesting. Will it only affect scrip or actual rewards you get? Guns etc.. and how about pvp & co-op rewards? Are they getting looked into too? Lots of questions I know. Sorry

Just currency rewards for events, currently, but it does free me up to be able to adjust other areas as well when I have the bandwidth.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-05-2015, 03:40 PM
Just currency rewards for events, currently, but it does free me up to be able to adjust other areas as well when I have the bandwidth.

Okay cool, thanks! Look forward to seeing some changes :)

SirServed
02-05-2015, 03:46 PM
Nope! Until I actually dig into it a bit and decide what needs to change, I can't confirm anything. But the goal would be to ensure skillful actions provide better rewards.
The fix would have to redefine what the Scoring System considers a skillful action. The current Teamwork payout is a prime suspect.

Chris Robet
02-05-2015, 03:51 PM
Nope! Until I actually dig into it a bit and decide what needs to change, I can't confirm anything. But the goal would be to ensure skillful actions provide better rewards.

Thanks for the honest answer I hate it when people try to dodge around questions!!

Riz
02-05-2015, 04:27 PM
Definitely in the good direction. Sounds like removing the majority of the spamcrap-items on the ground and replacing them by more meaningfull and exciting items for doing good in events. I like that it's going to be based on skill rather than dumb luck.

However i do share these worries pointed out by Ryker.


This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

Sadly, skill is not the same as score (anymore). Not all weapons require skill to make a player score great, there is this danger people will abuse 'easy' weapons like Infectors. Crimefighters and BMG's to gain the good stuff. Weapons that dont add anything to successfully complete an event, or add anything at all for that matter (BMG's). We already have a great amount of players abusing these weapons for the Arkforge as Ryker pointed out. The last thing we need is Trion to encouradge more people abusing these weapons and scoring mechanics, decreasing chances for succesfull events even more.

I would really like skill being rewarded as skill. So using a Sniper really getting rewarded. Snipers are hard to use in Defiance where enemies overwhelm you on a regular base. In all honesty, who uses a sniper after the pursuits and skilllevels have been done? So if one has the couradge and the skill to use a Sniper, and manages to deal serious damage with it, it should really be rewarded with a good place on the leaderboards and matching rewards. One that uses a BMG, which requires no aiming and no skill at all, should never be on top of the leaderboards and never gain seriously good rewards.

If you hand out rewards by skill, it should be done on skill, not on score (until score and skill properly match).

Gai
02-05-2015, 04:39 PM
Rash putting in the finest of work.

Untamed1
02-05-2015, 04:48 PM
How about some bonus score for sniper rifle crits, they are extremely hard to pull off in group events with all the explosions, shaking and enemy twitching.

ironmetal
02-05-2015, 05:29 PM
sounds great rashere:D keep at it:D

BC001
02-05-2015, 05:37 PM
The fix would have to redefine what the Scoring System considers a skillful action. The current Teamwork payout is a prime suspect.

That looks like it would be a real ticklish headache. Even small changes could produce wild swings in the score people get and in turn change the way the game has to be played to succeed. Defining what is skillful and what isn't is highly subjective, especially when it comes to the more unusual weapons (and shields) and the roles people use them for. Perks further complicate things because skillful use of them in combination with the weapons, shields, and situation may not look particularly skillful to the scoring system.

One that comes to mind is using northstar flare pistols for fire suppression. Quickly putting one round into each foe or cluster in sight for fire suppression (on those that stop shooting to roll and scream) can be a big help in winning with others around to finish them off but it does not seem to generate a lot of score points (based on impression, I will have to do some controlled experiments when I get a chance to make sure). Other good tactics with other equipment might fall through the cracks too.

Without the woot loot as a safety net for the new players (and others who tend to score towards the bottom of the charts for other reasons like equipment problems) it will be even more of a critical point than rebalancing would be in the current setup.

SirServed
02-05-2015, 05:57 PM
That looks like it would be a real ticklish headache. Even small changes could produce wild swings in the score people get and in turn change the way the game has to be played to succeed. Defining what is skillful and what isn't is highly subjective, especially when it comes to the more unusual weapons (and shields) and the roles people use them for. Perks further complicate things because skillful use of them in combination with the weapons, shields, and situation may not look particularly skillful to the scoring system.

One that comes to mind is using northstar flare pistols for fire suppression. Quickly putting one round into each foe or cluster in sight for fire suppression (on those that stop shooting to roll and scream) can be a big help in winning with others around to finish them off but it does not seem to generate a lot of score points (based on impression, I will have to do some controlled experiments when I get a chance to make sure). Other good tactics with other equipment might fall through the cracks too.

Without the woot loot as a safety net for the new players (and others who tend to score towards the bottom of the charts for other reasons like equipment problems) it will be even more of a critical point than rebalancing would be in the current setup.
I never said it was going to be easy. At the same time, anything worth doing...

BC001
02-05-2015, 06:05 PM
I never said it was going to be easy. At the same time, anything worth doing...

True. It will almost assure a storm of protests and nerf howls though, whether it actually turns out to be a good thing or a bad one.

Dixie Cougar
02-05-2015, 06:06 PM
No it won't be easy. In fact an improved scoring system might be even more complex than the current one. The more scoring factors there are pulling in opposite directions (i.e. demanding tradeoffs--for instance, armor break from bio vs raw dps from fire/rad, the latter of which isn't rewarded currently) the harder it will be for someone to game the system through unhelpful behavior.

Furthermore if unhelpful behavior remains its negative effects on other players (potentially damaging their scoring potential) can still be mitigated, as we saw with the reduction of CF camera shake and hopefully in the future with bmg related VFX.

Dixie Cougar
02-05-2015, 06:10 PM
True. It will almost assure a storm of protests and nerf howls though, whether it actually turns out to be a good thing or a bad one.

If BMG spammers are the ones protesting and howling, the devs will have done the right thing.

ShatterST4R
02-05-2015, 06:35 PM
Sounds awesome. And there is a time and place to use BMGs, infectors etc, I use them when leveling the skills, some players like using them, some dont. You can't really tell someone else how to play a MMO. I understand that BMG's create lag sometimes like crime fighters and that you hate then using at warmaster, which i do too, its a MMO, the only thing you can do is try to educate newer players about why not to use them at war master event etc( I use war master as example due to a lot of complaints about BMG's there).

Ryker Vorton
02-05-2015, 08:46 PM
If BMG spammers are the ones protesting and howling, the devs will have done the right thing.

Should start calling you "Evil Cougar" :p lol

(still what you said is true)


Sounds awesome. And there is a time and place to use BMGs, infectors etc, I use them when leveling the skills, some players like using them, some dont. You can't really tell someone else how to play a MMO. I understand that BMG's create lag sometimes like crime fighters and that you hate then using at warmaster, which i do too, its a MMO, the only thing you can do is try to educate newer players about why not to use them at war master event etc( I use war master as example due to a lot of complaints about BMG's there).

That's a key point!! But i have seen not few cases in which people couldn't care less about what problems they cause to others, in fact there are some who believe that causing them those problems will give themselves an advantage in gameplay (getting higher scores to get better rewards for example, or just preventing others from those achievements) Sometimes (very very few actually) there is a language barrier problem with people who chose to play in an english speaking game without knowing that language needed to communicate.

Still, key point and the best course of action to take is education :cool:

dremora ven0m
02-05-2015, 09:10 PM
eg you get a score of 50k points at a siege, rewarded with 700 scrip add 25% so in future you will be getting 875 scrip reward! Seems a good amount for 15mins work..
or have I got this wrong?

Cygnus
02-05-2015, 09:39 PM
Does this mean a player that loves the game but may be mediocre will receive mediocre rewards.so basically only the professionals and loot farmers will have the best gear...... for sale?serious question

SirServed
02-05-2015, 09:44 PM
Does this mean a player that loves the game but may be mediocre will receive mediocre rewards.so basically only the professionals and loot farmers will have the best gear...... for sale?serious question
It wouldn't affect gear drops. If you barely score high enough to get the best Lock Box in a Siege, me getting 100k points past that value doesn't increase my loot quality or chances.

Cika_Bang
02-06-2015, 12:22 AM
the goal would be to ensure skillful actions provide better rewards.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Hopefully it'll make people try harder to level their skills up, not just press left or right mouse button and spam that BMG like there's no tomorrow. Here I'm referring to gaming skills. :cool:

Tekrunner
02-06-2015, 12:28 AM
I've been out of the loop, so I may be basing myself on outdated information, but back in the days using a BMG was actually not that good an idea to score high. Teamwork points usually capped off before high hp / big point targets were killed, so the differentiating factors were opportunist points and nano kills. BMGs helped with neither. While infectors basically guaranteed nano kills, their low damage meant you didn't get many opportunist points. The one place where this wasn't necessarily true was the WM, because opportunist points were not awarded correctly.

Has any of this changed?

Claydough
02-06-2015, 12:46 AM
Not sure if im a fan of this,

As it stands now, score does not reflect skills, it reflects weapon choice. Excluding how damaging they are, you will not match top scores with some weapons.

And what happens if you show up late to an arkfall? Do you just give up and leave everyone by themselves?

mortaug
02-06-2015, 01:05 AM
I've been out of the loop, so I may be basing myself on outdated information, but back in the days using a BMG was actually not that good an idea to score high. Teamwork points usually capped off before high hp / big point targets were killed, so the differentiating factors were opportunist points and nano kills. BMGs helped with neither. While infectors basically guaranteed nano kills, their low damage meant you didn't get many opportunist points. The one place where this wasn't necessarily true was the WM, because opportunist points were not awarded correctly.

Has any of this changed?

Yes it isn't unusual to have a BMG user top the chart with only a few kills listed. I've seen 2nd, 3rd & 4th place have 100+ kills more and still be outscored badly.

Octo
02-06-2015, 01:30 AM
And what about the lag ?
It's hard to doing well and get a high score (especially during an event with the amount of players and all the laggy weapons) when the ennemy spawn and die in a blink (just like the volges during SS) or when you need three weeks to switch to your other weapon :(

(It's still a really good change, good job Rashere ^.^)

Bar6arian
02-06-2015, 04:21 AM
TL;DR version: I'm removing BMGs and other broken scoring weapons and increasing the rewards given out to those that kill stuff for event score.



Fixed it for you. But really thank you Rashere, great work.

Fenmore
02-06-2015, 04:32 AM
My 2 cents on observations on how the score system can / does probably work currently, not that there aren't issues outside of these: for example, if people are using BMGs to get to #1 on the scoreboard, it means one of three scenarios
1) the event was a failure due to the bad usage of the BMG or over-usage, etc
2) people are doing badly to the point where they need to be saved by BMGs by an absurd amount, meaning they really suck
3) Overall score is reduced for the entire group of people taking due to certain perks not activating for people who need their shields down, etc, but this correlates to #1 meaning that they're using it badly, and others with this type of set-up who need their shields tend to do better than them on the leaderboard because they're bad with the BMG they're primarily using
I've run into this problem but I can't name any solution that isn't obvious like telling them to not heal you in voice Area chat or Area / Zone chat, and moving away from the group / the BMG user signifying you do not want to be healed.

We had a conversation about this in Zone chat the other night on PC NA, just do better and you won't see them at #1, it does reflect skill, or the lack of for certain people. Obviously, the Volge Warmaster boss fight is an entirely different matter in that people shouldn't be using BMGs at all during the fight, extract when you die, high critical weapons, etc, but that's one of the only areas of the game where that applies. Not that I don't agree that they're overused or badly used sometimes. No idea about Infectors, I assumed they actually did damage by infecting, though. Nano-Effects pretty obviously contribute to the event though when they're applied. Teamwork does seem like it might be suspect but I don't know the nitty-gritty, hope this update is great when it comes.

Volodja Uljanov
02-06-2015, 04:34 AM
In theory Defiance like MMO-s, where you have to beat some event with bunch of people, are based on assumption that common interest is set above private ones. But there were, are and will be human beings who will put their personal interests in first place. So I join with some before-mentioned worries about people, doing something in events (like using BMG-s) without any real help to achieve main goal but getting their personal score up. I am not mind if somebody will get high score, as long as it was gained doing something really useful for common cause.

At least that post from Rashere eased my worries a bit:

"It definitely bumps my priority on adjusting how scoring works."


"So let us wait and see", said blind guy.

Fenmore
02-06-2015, 04:41 AM
In theory Defiance like MMO-s, where you have to beat some event with bunch of people, are based on assumption that common interest is set above private ones. But there were, are and will be human beings who will put their personal interests in first place. So I join with some before-mentioned worries about people, doing something in events (like using BMG-s) without any real help to achieve main goal but getting their personal score up. I am not mind if somebody will get high score, as long as it was gained doing something really useful for common cause.
There might be some flaws in the system, but ask yourself why they're able to heal to that point in the first place. There are veterans that do get #1 no matter how many BMGs are used, without using BMGs, my clan leader being one of them.

Volodja Uljanov
02-06-2015, 04:49 AM
Using BMG for healing is relatively useful. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it will be real pain in bottom, making aiming more complicated. My personal BMG using is limited anyway. I do it only to master some new fancy model. Usually I have combo of SMG and shottie in my hands. That satisfies me totally, because with them I can gain quite good position on scoring table.

Bentu
02-06-2015, 05:10 AM
I don't mean or wish to sound ungrateful however this move will only lead to further spamming of bmgs, which requires no skill at all and it's even detrimental to those using shields that increase crit dmg while shields are down.

Remember that Jurassic Park quote you gave in the interview?

Eleni
02-06-2015, 05:32 AM
Hopefully back to the future.

Damage scoreboard, Scaling rewards.

dremora ven0m
02-06-2015, 06:00 AM
If I get to a siege by 3rd or 4th stage at the latest I will finish in top 1-5 using my hellfire smg & milk maid at afflicted or my piper & beast of wolf at volge sieges!
Incursions if i can get to the last 4 stops before main event again I will be in top 1-5.
The people who finish above me usually have a cf equipped, its very very rare a bmg user (as main weapon) will finish ahead of me. I dont mean those that have 80-100 healing points.

I use a rhino shield so have a 9.6 sec delay on its recharge but I am pretty good at staying out of the enemies fire plus I have heal stims to help me plus i use the "thick skinned" perk. I dont use the ego perk "kill or be killed" but i still do not want to have a beam of light wrapped around me as it feels like it slows me down plus I really hate the protector shield wtf that all about!

Not sure what my point was tbh prob that I dislike bmg users just as much as cf users..

Tura Satana
02-06-2015, 07:18 AM
It definitely bumps my priority on adjusting how scoring works.

Good to know. : )

Markeen
02-06-2015, 01:05 PM
I support this idea 100%

Dragon06
02-06-2015, 01:21 PM
Excellent move. Skill and hard work should always have a higher reward than luck.

SirServed
02-06-2015, 02:43 PM
There might be some flaws in the system, but ask yourself why they're able to heal to that point in the first place. There are veterans that do get #1 no matter how many BMGs are used, without using BMGs, my clan leader being one of them.
Your clan leader may be the highest DPS player present and the most effective, but the Scoring System doesn't cater to that. If 1 skilled player is killing everything but there are 18 unskilled players taking a beating, 1 BMG user can hit the Score Lottery off of those 18 players. This is what happened with SS.

Dixie Cougar
02-06-2015, 03:00 PM
Your clan leader may be the highest DPS player present and the most effective, but the Scoring System doesn't cater to that. If 1 skilled player is killing everything but there are 18 unskilled players taking a beating, 1 BMG user can hit the Score Lottery off of those 18 players. This is what happened with SS.

Without actually helping said 18 cannon fodders stay alive by very much, it should be noted. Thank goodness for the snow blotting out the fruity blue beams of blinding.

Fenmore
02-06-2015, 05:18 PM
Your clan leader may be the highest DPS player present and the most effective, but the Scoring System doesn't cater to that. If 1 skilled player is killing everything but there are 18 unskilled players taking a beating, 1 BMG user can hit the Score Lottery off of those 18 players. This is what happened with SS.
Yeah, now I agree with that entirely, I was trying to figure out if people were slightly exaggerating or not or how exactly the problem occurred. The score system should then be rebalanced for BMGs actually being used to keep people alive, and less points for spamming it on people who don't want to be healed because they have perks for shields down, etc, anything not deterimental getting more points, pretty much.

Ryker Vorton
02-06-2015, 06:12 PM
(...) and less points for spamming it on people who don't want to be people (...).

Houston, we've got a problem.....

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

A "partially" easy and "partially" effective solution that just came to my mind (honestly, just came in while i was typing the houston thingie) is to make it work like some perks, only work with group members, that way people who want to benefit from BMGs (giving it the benefit of doubt) can group together, it wont affect those using the "weird" perks (having shields down to get an advantage on dealing damage falls into the "weird" chapter in my book, with all due respect for those who use them) and will also not "steal" score from unwilling participants, and if the person is not ingroup it only affect him/herself.

I swear there was something odd in that beer.....

Atticus Batman
02-06-2015, 06:19 PM
Houston, we've got a problem.....

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

A "partially" easy and "partially" effective solution that just came to my mind (honestly, just came in while i was typing the houston thingie) is to make it work like some perks, only work with group members, that way people who want to benefit from BMGs (giving it the benefit of doubt) can group together, it wont affect those using the "weird" perks (having shields down to get an advantage on dealing damage falls into the "weird" chapter in my book, with all due respect for those who use them) and will also not "steal" score from unwilling participants, and if the person is not ingroup it only affect him/herself.

I swear there was something odd in that beer.....

It would however make using a bmg completely useless. Since most don't group up.

Maybe they can lokk into the coding for the perks that require your shield to drop to be useful, and code it so bmgs don't heal people using those perks.

Tekrunner
02-07-2015, 05:08 AM
Nope! Until I actually dig into it a bit and decide what needs to change, I can't confirm anything. But the goal would be to ensure skillful actions provide better rewards.

Apparently I was misremembering some things. Opportunist points don't work right not just against the WM, but against everything else as well. I suggest you start your adjustments to the scoring system by fixing them. Right now you get at most 5 opportunist points per hit, no matter how much damage that hit does and no matter what the score feed says (even if it says Opportunist +100, you're only getting 5 points). This is kind of a big deal for 2 reasons: 1) as people are pointing, it means that BMGs get a disproportionately high amount of points (probably not as high as a very fast firing weapon, but higher than big damage, slow firing weapons) and 2) people are getting significantly fewer points than they're supposed to in many situations (WM, monolith, etc.). This problem has been present since the new scoring system was put in place. It's time to fix it.

Ryker Vorton
02-07-2015, 06:15 AM
Apparently I was misremembering some things. Opportunist points don't work right not just against the WM, but against everything else as well. I suggest you start your adjustments to the scoring system by fixing them. Right now you get at most 5 opportunist points per hit, no matter how much damage that hit does and no matter what the score feed says (even if it says Opportunist +100, you're only getting 5 points). This is kind of a big deal for 2 reasons: 1) as people are pointing, it means that BMGs get a disproportionately high amount of points (probably not as high as a very fast firing weapon, but higher than big damage, slow firing weapons) and 2) people are getting significantly fewer points than they're supposed to in many situations (WM, monolith, etc.). This problem has been present since the new scoring system was put in place. It's time to fix it.

That's quite true. Actually all the small fire weapons should be re-evaluated, it is ridiculous that a SMG will earn more points than a bolt sniper, for example, while the average bolter does (in one extra-slow and most times hard to achieve shot) way more damage than what a smg can ever dream to do with a full clip, specially if the bolter is on an experienced sniper hands, chich means only critical hits.

The problem with BMGs is not only damage related but heavily "healing" related, they just earn a cr*p lot of points for "healing". One more option here would be to eliminate score for "healing".

But not all BMGs are the pure representation of evil, i've been running some tests on a certain (rather rare) kind of BMG and i must say i am really really surprised with the effectiveness of it's secondary function (too early to make a statement yet and if i ever do, it will be after i get my oranges before their prices skyrocket) but what i mean, is SOME bmgs may actually have a positive use of their secondary functions.

What i am noticing is that while most weapons tend to not get a high enough boost when a player is in a high thread level area this is specially poor for the BMGs secondary function, the same effect which can be really good at the player's own TL becomes utterly useless on higher TL because the lack of proper scaling of weapons, and this must be the main reason because most of us don't receive any positive effects from the spammer healers during conflicts, simply because they are lower level and their weapon weren't scaled high enough to make up for the TL difference.

The same scaing problem exists in ALL weapons, just like when you are used to kill a mutant in three shots, the TL jumps up and not even a full 80 bullets clip is enough to kill them.

Graywolfe
02-07-2015, 09:23 PM
It would however make using a bmg completely useless. Since most don't group up.

Maybe they can lokk into the coding for the perks that require your shield to drop to be useful, and code it so bmgs don't heal people using those perks.

That sounds like the start of a good idea. Add a perk that when enabled means a BMG healing wont affect you, no honeycomb shield no blue light around you. That way only those that want the healing will get it.

Atticus Batman
02-08-2015, 12:51 AM
That sounds like the start of a good idea. Add a perk that when enabled means a BMG healing wont affect you, no honeycomb shield no blue light around you. That way only those that want the healing will get it.

Making a perk strictly for that is also a dumb idea in my opinion. Why would anybody want to waste a perk slot on that?! Just make it so perks that require your shields to be down for benefit, prevent BMGS from healing you at all while those perks are equipped.

Graywolfe
02-08-2015, 10:18 AM
Its not like it would be mandatory Bats just an option and i would use it as the healing from BMGs causes me to loose the server and DC at major events. So its not dumb just an idea. :p :)

Killerboi5000
02-08-2015, 01:44 PM
What really matters is damage and just that. The more damage a player does the more he killed or helped killing enemies and the better the rewards they should get. They ARE the most skilled, they have the better guns and the best technique on enemy slaying.

BMG and Infectors do poor damage but spread across a lot of hits which increases their score. They arent really helping but they are getting high scores.

GodKingMoloch
02-09-2015, 06:53 AM
This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

Your view of BMG's is not sound at all buddy. The Bmg was designed as a exotic choice of weapon. They are the only weapon that can heal you when stuff gets thick. A good BMG can attack up to 8 opponents at a time, and help heal 8 players at a time. Yes the damage is lower then projectile weapons untill you factor in your attacking 8 enemy's at a time then they become just as effective. So please If you hate the BMG don't use it, but do not condemn it either. I'm sure it has saved your hide a few times at event's.

r1p
02-09-2015, 07:23 AM
Your view of BMG's is not sound at all buddy. The Bmg was designed as a exotic choice of weapon. They are the only weapon that can heal you when stuff gets thick. A good BMG can attack up to 8 opponents at a time, and help heal 8 players at a time. Yes the damage is lower then projectile weapons untill you factor in your attacking 8 enemy's at a time then they become just as effective. So please If you hate the BMG don't use it, but do not condemn it either. I'm sure it has saved your hide a few times at event's.

I have no idea how many times it has saved me, but I can tell in exquisite detail how many time I've been blinded by the bright white light or the honeycomb of doom, walked into an ambush because I couldn't see, and was utterly destroyed.

GodKingMoloch
02-09-2015, 07:48 AM
I have no idea how many times it has saved me, but I can tell in exquisite detail how many time I've been blinded by the bright white light or the honeycomb of doom, walked into an ambush because I couldn't see, and was utterly destroyed.

The best way they could please the whole community with bmg's, would be too make the beam and shield effects much more transparent. But I think most of the people that are complaining about then have very poor graphics rendering. On my PC the beams are almost completely invisible but the shield spanners are a bit annoying. If they would just use the clear shield effect they have as it is about too vanish the (clear outlined bubble), instead of a orange bubble a lot of people would not get upset about bmg's anymore. It would literally take them about 3 minutes too change the coding on them as the code is already there. They don't need nerfed or removed just a quick visual effects change. This one is really the fastest easiest way too snuff the debate over these weapons.

BTW the PS version of the game has very poor graphics too begin with as I played it for the first year on playstation. That's not really trion's fault at all. Talk to sony unentertainment about that.

r1p
02-09-2015, 09:57 AM
BTW the PS version of the game has very poor graphics too begin with as I played it for the first year on playstation. That's not really trion's fault at all. Talk to sony unentertainment about that.

I'm sorry but it's Trion's responsibility to tweak the rendering in their own game. I find it highly unlikely that there is only 1 way to render this on the PS irrespective of the quality of the graphics card installed in it.

octobersnow
02-09-2015, 12:58 PM
IMHO the whole added chore of receiving "vendor junk" and having to convert it to scrip is time better spent on content. why not eliminate this step by making the drops scrip?
a currency exchange vendor would eliminate the short lived need for the player to have junk to grind into salvage. or just let us trade it, as the few players that actually need it when newer would no doubt be able to acquire plenty or as most of us have many millions of this useless currency new social opportunities waiting to exist

my 2c.

Bonehead
02-09-2015, 01:24 PM
No it won't be easy. In fact an improved scoring system might be even more complex than the current one.

This is the new system. Rash and the team might tweak it some here and there but back when the Warmaster first came out the score system was a simple damage based one. The game was (and still is for that matter) in a state of evolution and with the other changes that brought us F2P and a new way to monetize the game, the scoring system was changed to pretty much what it is now. Simple scoring is no longer possible with the advent of threat scaling. Too many dynamic stuffs happening all through the code with threat levels changing and ego levels and mob strength and health/durability not to mention the other thousand variables.

Gotta say I will miss the Woot loot. You could always just go hang out at the tranquility road beginning area for some needed cash if you were short.


<Meh... whatever.

Bonehead
02-09-2015, 01:29 PM
Apparently I was misremembering some things. Opportunist points don't work right not just against the WM, but against everything else as well. I suggest you start your adjustments to the scoring system by fixing them.......... This problem has been present since the new scoring system was put in place. It's time to fix it.

That is going to be a big undertaking. I wouldn't expect anything like that for an extended period of "soon".

Tekrunner
02-10-2015, 10:10 AM
That is going to be a big undertaking. I wouldn't expect anything like that for an extended period of "soon".

On the contrary I don't see this particular fix as a big undertaking. The game can already count opportunist points right, as the score feed displays them correctly. They just need to be counted the same way in your total score. This fix wouldn't solve everything: in situations with lots of enemies, tagging them all would probably still give you more points than focusing on single targets with high DPS weapons. But in fights against high HP enemies (mostly arkfall bosses and the WM), it would at least mean that high damage dealers are at the top of the scoreboard.

Plus it's just annoying that these points are not counted correctly. When I unload a full mag from my double crit ranger into a monolith's neck, while EGO-boosted and overcharged (so like 200k per shot), and I see something like Opportunist +3000 in the score feed, but my actual score has only gone up by like 150, then I just feel like the game is straight-up stealing points from me.

SUPREEM
02-12-2015, 09:41 AM
This is gonna suck for those who crit out %90 of the time during events, meaning they'll never have a high enough score to win anything worth having. Other than that this should be great.

For example, when I do cc majors I crit out after the 2nd or 3rd minor. I have to restart my console because if I try to log right back in my psn connection gets killed, forcing me to restart anyway. So I figured I'd just skip a step. By the time I log back in the arkfall is next to finished and I end up ranking "21".

r1p
02-12-2015, 11:01 AM
Plus it's just annoying that these points are not counted correctly. When I unload a full mag from my double crit ranger into a monolith's neck, while EGO-boosted and overcharged (so like 200k per shot), and I see something like Opportunist +3000 in the score feed, but my actual score has only gone up by like 150, then I just feel like the game is straight-up stealing points from me.

Truth. Really noticeable in this holiday event at the end of the major when the matron is the only enemy left. I'm standing in front of it with my Dancing Lady with 15% Crit from Hip mastered with a Damage Spike & Overcharge enabled and after pumping a full clip straight into its puckered maw (all crit) and my score goes up a whopping 15-20 points. Glad I spent a full clip for that. I get more points running over random hellbugs while driving.

stefb42
02-12-2015, 11:24 AM
I'm just going to quietly wait and see what the sting in the tail is this time, yeah all sounds positive and all that, but so did upcoming changes to weapon rolls, changes to arkforge and keycode rewards, and everyone's recent favourite - alcatraz, so yeah, preparing myself for another blow around the time this hits and the reality sinks in

Dixie Cougar
02-12-2015, 03:34 PM
I'm just going to quietly wait and see what the sting in the tail is this time, yeah all sounds positive and all that, but so did upcoming changes to weapon rolls, changes to arkforge and keycode rewards, and everyone's recent favourite - alcatraz, so yeah, preparing myself for another blow around the time this hits and the reality sinks in

Sounds like the stakes are pretty low at least. For now it's only scrip and salvage isn't it?

Mister Derpenhowser
02-12-2015, 09:22 PM
Sounds like the stakes are pretty low at least. For now it's only scrip and salvage isn't it?

Yep, Rashere clarified that quite early on in this thread. Somewhere between pages 1, 2 & 3 (I've not been back here for a while though)

Cyripax NeoPrime
02-12-2015, 10:33 PM
I've been taking a look at the game economy lately, specifically the rate at which you gain currencies, and am going to make some changes to shift rewards more towards skill than luck. I'm expecting this will go out with the Alcatraz update.

TL;DR version: I'm removing woot loot and increasing the rewards given out for event score.

The longer version:
Woot loot is the term for the items that a player spews out to everyone around them when they gain EGO ratings, level up weapons, vehicles, etc. It's a fun idea, sharing the celebration of success, but presents some problems when trying to get a handle on the balance of the game economy. Basically, the amount of woot loot you get, and its conversion to scrip or salvage income, is entirely dependent upon how many players are around you and their EGO rating. This has a huge variance. Its not uncommon for woot loot to make up anywhere from 0% to 80% of the income for a play session, though the average is about 25%.

Woot loot is also not tied to the skill or success of the player gaining the loot. It's just about being in the right place at the right time. I've been wanting to increase the rewards players get for being skillful in events for a while, but the variable income from woot loot has made that difficult to do in a balanced way.

To address this, I'm going to remove woot loot and shift those rewards to what you get for high scores in events, increasing them by roughly 25%. This keeps the currency income rate about what it is now, but makes it more consistent and puts it in the hands of the players, rewarding them more for doing well in events instead of just being lucky.

Rashere

This would be great if the scoring actually went back to bieng damage totals/based where pples skills mattered. I was ALWAYS in the top 5 scorers when doing arkfalls. Most of those times top 3 Literally 90% of the time before this new scoring system came out next to dlc5. I used to get scores anywhere from 300,000 to a few million back then. Now after coming back recently ive been finding myself always in the last ten of any arkfall of 20+ and im layin it on from start to finish doin my part. All i see is crit after crits after yellow crit shots piling up but lower than expected scores. What the hell is the score even based on anymore??? Teamwork based i thought, i keep tryin different things and havent been able to figure it out. Any vets who remember the old scoring system? I miss it dearly, I mean forgive me for thinking that a shooter should give you a higher score for bieng skillfull at "shooting things in the weak spot untill they die" because that is no longer the case appearantly ;p

Cyripax NeoPrime
02-12-2015, 10:45 PM
This is gonna suck for those who crit out %90 of the time during events, meaning they'll never have a high enough score to win anything worth having. Other than that this should be great.

For example, when I do cc majors I crit out after the 2nd or 3rd minor. I have to restart my console because if I try to log right back in my psn connection gets killed, forcing me to restart anyway. So I figured I'd just skip a step. By the time I log back in the arkfall is next to finished and I end up ranking "21".

This too. I cant run a major from start to finish without critting out and dcing lately. Things were better for thankgsiving harvest, and i cant believe im saying this but even with the snow for solstice. I didnt even crit out this much then. I couldnt even do a regular story mission today without crittin. Same mission, 3 times. I gave up. Things have been worse, running into invisible things again, and they dont appear ten seconds later...... they dont appear at all sometimes. I ran into 15 things in 1 minute today on my roller today. I havent seen this problem this bad for a very long time
Ive also noticed the past few days my character has been glitching into things or on top of things and not bieng able to move from that spot. I have to keep blowing myself up with nades or launchers to extract. Ps3 na just keeps getting worse. Then a patch will come out that makes it better for a while, then the next one eh, its definately a roller coaster.

Kimoi
02-14-2015, 07:58 AM
I've been taking a look at the game economy lately, specifically the rate at which you gain currencies, and am going to make some changes to shift rewards more towards skill than luck. I'm expecting this will go out with the Alcatraz update.

TL;DR version: I'm removing woot loot and increasing the rewards given out for event score.

The longer version:
Woot loot is the term for the items that a player spews out to everyone around them when they gain EGO ratings, level up weapons, vehicles, etc. It's a fun idea, sharing the celebration of success, but presents some problems when trying to get a handle on the balance of the game economy. Basically, the amount of woot loot you get, and its conversion to scrip or salvage income, is entirely dependent upon how many players are around you and their EGO rating. This has a huge variance. Its not uncommon for woot loot to make up anywhere from 0% to 80% of the income for a play session, though the average is about 25%.

Woot loot is also not tied to the skill or success of the player gaining the loot. It's just about being in the right place at the right time. I've been wanting to increase the rewards players get for being skillful in events for a while, but the variable income from woot loot has made that difficult to do in a balanced way.

To address this, I'm going to remove woot loot and shift those rewards to what you get for high scores in events, increasing them by roughly 25%. This keeps the currency income rate about what it is now, but makes it more consistent and puts it in the hands of the players, rewarding them more for doing well in events instead of just being lucky.

Rashere

I would just like to mention if someone already hasn't.

Wootloot is pretty much all we have to look forward too in Arkfall events due to the mass of anyone over 4,000EGO usually spamming BMG's and gaining points that way.

So your attempt to balance the game will in the end make it so nobody that actually needs the gear will be able to obtain it.

Instead of nerfing it for everyone who doesn't spam useless weapons for points, why not look at the sell/buyback factors instead of what loot drops.

Not to mention your pretty much saying "skill" is equal to points, but what that really means is all the top tier players in an arkfall are usually weekly/monthly patron players and will always have a bonus to score.

Again, it just sounds like you want to reward players who pay, or spam for points. ( dont get me wrong I have paid for this game because I support what I like)

Not trying to attack with this post, I have just noticed since I started playing over a month ago (bought the retail version/dlc's), that all the larger events either crash the whole zone, or are filled with people just looking to get a score for no reason but being at the top. Maybe different Tiers of rewards would be an idea, like having ego1,000 to 2,000 in the same class of winning pool, and so on. Making it more of a challenge to top people your similar ego rating then topping a ego5900 that has no "real" need for any RNGesus drops.

Love the game, and I expect a few attacks back from HARDCORE players that look for a bridge to troll under.

I would just love to see this game go farther instead of addressing problems that are not tied to actual stability of the servers.

Bonehead
02-14-2015, 11:37 AM
This would be great if the scoring actually went back to bieng damage totals/based where pples skills mattered. I was ALWAYS in the top 5 scorers when doing arkfalls. Most of those times top 3 Literally 90% of the time before this new scoring system came out next to dlc5. I used to get scores anywhere from 300,000 to a few million back then. Now after coming back recently ive been finding myself always in the last ten of any arkfall of 20+ and im layin it on from start to finish doin my part. All i see is crit after crits after yellow crit shots piling up but lower than expected scores. What the hell is the score even based on anymore??? Teamwork based i thought, i keep tryin different things and havent been able to figure it out. Any vets who remember the old scoring system? I miss it dearly, I mean forgive me for thinking that a shooter should give you a higher score for bieng skillfull at "shooting things in the weak spot untill they die" because that is no longer the case appearantly ;p

For whatever reason the old damage based scoring system was ditched for the system we have now when threat scaling became a way to help monetize the game. I liked the old system better but I don't get payed by Trion to squeeze the money sponge as hard as I can and I have no degree in counting beans and no love for Korean F2P button smashers so my opinion is outside the current thinking at the Defiance studios.

But hey no worries mate! Just spam a bmg and an infector at any big event you go to and you will be on top of the leaderboards again in no time!

Cyripax NeoPrime
02-14-2015, 11:46 AM
For whatever reason the old damage based scoring system was ditched for the system we have now when threat scaling became a way to help monetize the game. I liked the old system better but I don't get payed by Trion to squeeze the money sponge as hard as I can and I have no degree in counting beans and no love for Korean F2P button smashers so my opinion is outside the current thinking at the Defiance studios.

But hey no worries mate! Just spam a bmg and an infector at any big event you go to and you will be on top of the leaderboards again in no time!

Well i know why it cant be that way anymore. Now that everything scales with ego higher ego players with higher ego weapons will dominate the scoring system.
The damage total system only works when all weaps had the same damage no matter what lvl ppl were.

I just miss bieng at the top of the list. Lol. I was using an under ego 1000 back then and id always be top 3. I have pics of results for every arkfall ive ever played,lol. Now that im a much higher ego im always coming out at the bottom. Its skruggin sad :(

Lol, i refuse to be part of the problem and use bmgs or infectors. Those guys are the same ****s who teabag you when your downed instead of helping you up. Same ppl who turned arkfalls into parking lots before the vehicle nerf



I would just like to mention if someone already hasn't.

Wootloot is pretty much all we have to look forward too in Arkfall events due to the mass of anyone over 4,000EGO usually spamming BMG's and gaining points that way.

So your attempt to balance the game will in the end make it so nobody that actually needs the gear will be able to obtain it.

Instead of nerfing it for everyone who doesn't spam useless weapons for points, why not look at the sell/buyback factors instead of what loot drops.

Not to mention your pretty much saying "skill" is equal to points, but what that really means is all the top tier players in an arkfall are usually weekly/monthly patron players and will always have a bonus to score.

Again, it just sounds like you want to reward players who pay, or spam for points. ( dont get me wrong I have paid for this game because I support what I like)

Not trying to attack with this post, I have just noticed since I started playing over a month ago (bought the retail version/dlc's), that all the larger events either crash the whole zone, or are filled with people just looking to get a score for no reason but being at the top. Maybe different Tiers of rewards would be an idea, like having ego1,000 to 2,000 in the same class of winning pool, and so on. Making it more of a challenge to top people your similar ego rating then topping a ego5900 that has no "real" need for any RNGesus drops.

Love the game, and I expect a few attacks back from HARDCORE players that look for a bridge to troll under.

I would just love to see this game go farther instead of addressing problems that are not tied to actual stability of the servers.

I completely agree with this. Give this man a cookie. Even though woot loot is usually useless greens and the occasional blue....... thats scrip man.
I do have to add tho that im always holding a patron pass, and using score boosts, and niether have helped me get into first place. Its always ego 5000 players and up. I know our ego upscales now to be on a lvl playing field, but it doesnt seem to help at all.

Bieng an effective killer doesnt get you a good score anymore. The new system rewards players for bieng unproductive. The fact that rewards are RNG in events is the ONLY THING making the reward system fair for everyone. If you start giving higher scorers better rewards your punishing ppl and rewarding the unproductive.

I literally get a higher score if i hang on the outer circle of an atkfall popping 1 or 2 bullets into each enemy then moving onto another and another slowly firing and scanning the bullet spray willy nilly into multiple enemies as quickly as possible.

You recieve a lower score for piling on a hundred thousand crit shots and effectively killing enemies.

Im not sure about anyone else but this is supercalifragifooked. The new scoring system has been broken for a long time.
It makes the game not fun if you have to run into battle with your **** in one hand, flailing a bmg or infector in the other to score high

Vega
02-14-2015, 01:28 PM
          

Rashere
02-16-2015, 01:44 PM
This is soooo awesome. I'm getting frustrated with getting junk when topping a major arkfall while the same group of people shoot one shot then afk at the edge of the boundries the entire arkfall only to get better rewards.

Item drops have nothing to do with score. Score only affects XP and currencies earned. It's the currencies that I'm increasing.

Claydough
02-16-2015, 02:32 PM
Item drops have nothing to do with score. Score only affects XP and currencies earned. It's the currencies that I'm increasing.

wait, so you're not touching weapons or mod drops/rewards?

tarmim
02-16-2015, 02:33 PM
Item drops have nothing to do with score. Score only affects XP and currencies earned. It's the currencies that I'm increasing.

Well i was just getting excited...

Anyways i have few ideas ( i dont know if these are gonna be good)

Make BMGs only heal ONE player AT A TIME = no more bmg spamming

So xp & currencies are based on score, make leader board multiplier!

First: +20% to xp and currencies
Second: +19%
Third: +18%
10th: +10%
19th: +1%
And so on

For an example; i got 100 k score, finishing off at 10th place gives me 10% multiplier so i get 110k XP.

Imo those ideas are good i want to know what you guys think.

Rashere
02-16-2015, 02:37 PM
wait, so you're not touching weapons or mod drops/rewards?

Not as rewards for events. Even if I wanted to, the system doesn't support granting different items based on score currently (except for sieges).

Burned In Effigy
02-16-2015, 02:57 PM
Awwwww yea royt they might, royt they. Nice Rashere. Finally.

Tekrunner
02-17-2015, 09:50 AM
So xp & currencies are based on score, make leader board multiplier!

First: +20% to xp and currencies
Second: +19%
Third: +18%
10th: +10%
19th: +1%
And so on

For an example; i got 100 k score, finishing off at 10th place gives me 10% multiplier so i get 110k XP.

Imo those ideas are good i want to know what you guys think.

This is exactly the sort of stuff they should never do. Introducing a concrete competitive element (that goes beyond just having your name in the spotlight) in cooperative content is a bad idea in general. The minute a strategy emerges that can be used to gain an edge at the detriment of others, or make other people score less, then we have a problem.

Extending the siege score system to major arkfalls could probably help, as would fixing opportunist points, but it wouldn't solve everything.

ButtTheRipper
02-17-2015, 10:03 AM
But hey no worries mate! Just spam a bmg and an infector at any big event you go to and you will be on top of the leaderboards again in no time!
An alternative, it's not fun or anything but I tried it to see if it works at a CC event: Shoot everything once... tag them then you get all the points when they die and your kill count counts everything you put all of 1 bullet into. Lol, the time I tried this I got top of CC and had like 170+ kills... I definitely didn't "kill" anything. Crazy amount of points too. Can basically spin around in a circle with a low bloom weapon tagging enemies and 'voila' points and 'kills'.
Something is wrong with scoring....

tarmim
02-17-2015, 02:47 PM
This is exactly the sort of stuff they should never do. Introducing a concrete competitive element (that goes beyond just having your name in the spotlight) in cooperative content is a bad idea in general. The minute a strategy emerges that can be used to gain an edge at the detriment of others, or make other people score less, then we have a problem.

Extending the siege score system to major arkfalls could probably help, as would fixing opportunist points, but it wouldn't solve everything.

Sorry i didnt understand all of this. (My mother language is not english.) I only understood its bad idea and .. I want my name to be in spotlight??

+ I want SOMETHING PLS that gives better rewards for people who actually do something , not just players who get there in last minute and shoot once have as big (or small) change to get good weapons/mods.

Im not saying i know everything about the game economics. In fact, i know very little about them. Im not saying thats best thing what could ever happen, im just sharing my thoughts telling my ideas. Things, that IN MY OPINION, could make the game better.

Btw do we ever get event shields?

Graywolfe
02-18-2015, 08:11 AM
One of the problems with the current scoring system is that you can get high points for doing almost nothing because of that it does not work to base rewards on the score. I like the score system that they have in effect for the sieges more, it is not perfect but it is the best they have at the moment. As others have pointed out the score needs to be based on actual kills made, sure you should get a percentage for helping shoot down a enemy but the kill shot would be the big points. Also it already keeps tracks of the characters you revive for a small reward and that is fine but there should be no reward for healing characters, that would cut down on the BMG ues and thus reduce the lag at big events.

BC001
02-18-2015, 12:12 PM
One of the problems with the current scoring system is that you can get high points for doing almost nothing because of that it does not work to base rewards on the score. I like the score system that they have in effect for the sieges more, it is not perfect but it is the best they have at the moment. As others have pointed out the score needs to be based on actual kills made, sure you should get a percentage for helping shoot down a enemy but the kill shot would be the big points. Also it already keeps tracks of the characters you revive for a small reward and that is fine but there should be no reward for healing characters, that would cut down on the BMG ues and thus reduce the lag at big events.

It would not really cut down BMG use by much I suspect since many who use the BMGs use them for self healing or shield stripping.

Keep an eye on BMG users sometime, most of them start healing after taking a big hit or when being hosed down by multiple enemies and after about ten seconds or so (enough to refill shields and hold them steady until hit points regenerate) they switch to offensive use or to their main weapon. The ones who do that will keep on doing it regardless of score changes because it is not about score, it is about not getting downed during the long cooldown time between stims.

The ones who are serious about healing others (the Healer role in other games) usually pulse the healing beam for a moment and look for green number streams and if there are enough to warrant it will hold the button down until the number streams thin out a bit. Often this is done at natural pause points, like when the matron goes underground. These people will also continue to use BMGs at events because they like the role of healer.

Some users just hold the button down practically from the start and run around with it, even when it is obvious that no one is wounded. They are the only ones likely to stop using the BMG if they remove the healing score. Even then it is not assured that they are score farming, it is easy to miss at first which weapon is active (especially when lag slows swapping) and it may take a second or two to realize the "aim" and "fire" combination is not having the expected effect (though you can tell they are not the farmers even if they start out with the healing beam because they soon stop using it and switch to the weapon they thought they were using in the first place).

Then there are those who mainly use it offensively, either for shield stripping (and armor stripping if it is a plate slicer) to follow up with a fire nano weapon, chain killing fast-moving trash mobs, or using a trapper to slow the enemy down for others to kill easier. They will also likely not stop using them because of scoring changes, especially since many of them do not even use the healing beams much.

ButtTheRipper
02-18-2015, 12:22 PM
It would not really cut down BMG use by much I suspect since many who use the BMGs use them for self healing or shield stripping.

Keep an eye on BMG users sometime, most of them start healing after taking a big hit or when being hosed down by multiple enemies and after about ten seconds or so (enough to refill shields and hold them steady until hit points regenerate) they switch to offensive use or to their main weapon. The ones who do that will keep on doing it regardless of score changes because it is not about score, it is about not getting downed during the long cooldown time between stims.

The ones who are serious about healing others (the Healer role in other games) usually pulse the healing beam for a moment and look for green number streams and if there are enough to warrant it will hold the button down until the number streams thin out a bit. Often this is done at natural pause points, like when the matron goes underground. These people will also continue to use BMGs at events because they like the role of healer.

Some users just hold the button down practically from the start and run around with it, even when it is obvious that no one is wounded. They are the only ones likely to stop using the BMG if they remove the healing score. Even then it is not assured that they are score farming, it is easy to miss at first which weapon is active (especially when lag slows swapping) and it may take a second or two to realize the "aim" and "fire" combination is not having the expected effect (though you can tell they are not the farmers even if they start out with the healing beam because they soon stop using it and switch to the weapon they thought they were using in the first place).
I have personally never seen someone use a BMG to heal JUST themselves. By the time a bmg comes into play you have either been swarmed and died in 1s before you can switch your weapon to the bmg, have used tactics and gained a better position/cover to let shield heal, or used the cheapest out the cloak which is instant shield; lest I forget to mention just going on a rampage and killing everything.... plus syphon... perks... yadda yadda yadda. Bmg's literally have no use. Anything I'm leaving out?

BC001
02-18-2015, 01:14 PM
I have personally never seen someone use a BMG to heal JUST themselves. By the time a bmg comes into play you have either been swarmed and died in 1s before you can switch your weapon to the bmg, have used tactics and gained a better position/cover to let shield heal, or used the cheapest out the cloak which is instant shield; lest I forget to mention just going on a rampage and killing everything.... plus syphon... perks... yadda yadda yadda. Bmg's literally have no use. Anything I'm leaving out?

Yes, you are leaving a lot out. The techniques you mention are good but not always good enough depending on the situation and the BMG provides an edge that can make the difference between surviving and getting downed. Since the EGO powers are equipped one at a time the cloak trick is not always an option, they may have something else intending to use it for some other purpose.

I have come across people soloing with the healing beam used defensively as I described more than once (and I do it myself as well, one of my favorite combinations is the northstar flare and BMG) so obviously some people do it despite myths to the contrary. Personally I use a combination of the self-heal, offensive, and only occasionally Healer-role techniques depending on the situation.

Are you really sure you never seen BMG users just healing themselves? It can be hard to keep tabs on others while doing events unless you record them for analysis like I sometimes do (I use FRAPS which is good but produces huge files). People using them for self heal usually pretty much ignore others in the area and so are fairly easy to spot. Also they usually try to duck behind things and heal which is another good tell.

If they follow others around with it then they are probably either using the Healer-role or they are score farming which is harder to tell apart (the momentary 'test' pulse is a good way if you catch sight of it). Most healer-role types do not follow people though unless they are doing an escort trying to buff someone attacking a tough enemy, unfortunately the BMG is not really suited to that purpose and they probably should not use it for that. Of course they may not even be following anyone and may simply be going in the same direction for a few seconds.

There is rarely only one "right" way to do things in this game (the WM being one of the few exceptions to that) and assuming that anything not immediately obvious is an exploit or cheat is a mistake that happens far too often.

Graywolfe
02-19-2015, 08:07 PM
It would not really cut down BMG use by much I suspect since many who use the BMGs use them for self healing or shield stripping.

Keep an eye on BMG users sometime, most of them start healing after taking a big hit or when being hosed down by multiple enemies and after about ten seconds or so (enough to refill shields and hold them steady until hit points regenerate) they switch to offensive use or to their main weapon. The ones who do that will keep on doing it regardless of score changes because it is not about score, it is about not getting downed during the long cooldown time between stims.

The ones who are serious about healing others (the Healer role in other games) usually pulse the healing beam for a moment and look for green number streams and if there are enough to warrant it will hold the button down until the number streams thin out a bit. Often this is done at natural pause points, like when the matron goes underground. These people will also continue to use BMGs at events because they like the role of healer.

Some users just hold the button down practically from the start and run around with it, even when it is obvious that no one is wounded. They are the only ones likely to stop using the BMG if they remove the healing score. Even then it is not assured that they are score farming, it is easy to miss at first which weapon is active (especially when lag slows swapping) and it may take a second or two to realize the "aim" and "fire" combination is not having the expected effect (though you can tell they are not the farmers even if they start out with the healing beam because they soon stop using it and switch to the weapon they thought they were using in the first place).

Then there are those who mainly use it offensively, either for shield stripping (and armor stripping if it is a plate slicer) to follow up with a fire nano weapon, chain killing fast-moving trash mobs, or using a trapper to slow the enemy down for others to kill easier. They will also likely not stop using them because of scoring changes, especially since many of them do not even use the healing beams much.

It does not have to stop all BMG use just reduce it in order to help with lag and DCs. Most times the offensive beams from the BMGs do not affect my game play at all. I suspect that the score farmers are the biggest problem not the people that use it from time to time to heal. I am hoping that they will put the FX fix in for the BMGs soon so they will no longer have a negitive effect on people as i would like to try them out. I'm hoping that patch will also help with spikes, CFs and infectors as many people have also complained about them.

DEATHBRINGER210
02-20-2015, 03:26 PM
i guess they want us broke . we get alot of woot loot . every time some1 woots at a major event we get paid . more than the major pays out .i say kept the woot loot and gives us more money for our guns from the vendor

bigbri2k5
02-21-2015, 03:01 PM
Will there be a similar change for PvP rewards? Kind of sucks to be getting 80% of your teams kills/captures and getting like 3 keycodes

Dixie Cougar
02-21-2015, 03:04 PM
In the game's current state (weak healing, blinding beams, even more obnoxious shield hex), healers are griefers, period, end of story. Wannabe clerics are not playing an alternate metagame, they're being counterproductive; anyone who wants to help win an encounter should pick up a gun and fire it in the general direction of the enemy. An ego 50 noob with the starter AR is more useful than a 5900 with a fully modded oj BMG (who really ought to know better and is therefore worthy only of contempt).

There is but one way, and that is the way of the DPS. You wanna play a healer, there's TF2 or every other non shooter MMO out there.

Which is why, although I agree with the changes in the OP, I share some other posters' concerns about how it will adversely affect incentives for players to engage in jagoff behavior.

tl;dr, fix the BMG VFX asap please!

Adage
02-23-2015, 10:12 PM
I like this idea, definitely something that has a lot of potential. Having said that...

http://i.imgur.com/LaZV21k.png

BigPapaPUMP405
02-24-2015, 09:21 AM
That's awesome and makes sense to do this. Thanks!

ShadrachVS
02-24-2015, 11:15 PM
Instead of the final blow being so important; why not dole out point value based upon percentage of enemy health dealt by a player... nothing spectacular; if you are crit seeking you would be receiving points at an increased rate than that of someone 'tagging' an enemy with a low grade DoT.
I agree that you do want to reward all players, but the essence of an event like this means that players that earnestly want to be on top, also want rewards for being there; spreading the value of current rewards by the top 20 means that any player knowing they aren't going to be in this list, will just find somewhere else to be. Large events become rapidly unpopular or too competitive. Layering a bonus to reward performance that is above and beyond the normal rewards would be well received, I think.

As for Infectors, after reading on this forum how useless they were, I tried them out... If a person with an Infector is not simply 'tagging' things, they can get up to some serious DPS output... My opinion of course...
As to the BMG complaints; as they stand now the ONLY reason to use one is to abuse the scoring system; I haven't found a way of being decent at either offense or healing with them. So I guess that would be a weapon category the Devs might want to take a look at to try and make it viable; or oust it entirely. Though on a single target the BMG was useful with my duo partner in keeping me alive while I was blasting things.

Your mileage may vary of course, as I am relatively new to this particular game.

TheStigsCousin
02-25-2015, 11:04 AM
The biggest problem I think with bmg's is this --

They give us perks and synergies that rely on shield breaking or being at low health in order to get the effect from them. Now you have players running around with constant bmg effects and no one's shields can break, therefore, rendering those perks and synergies useless.

As for the woot loot -- I've never got very much from it, so to me, it won't be that big of a loss.

Mister Derpenhowser
02-27-2015, 10:39 AM
Only bmg I own is a plateslicer spanner.. which I will oj at some point even though I never use it... and if i did it wouldn't be for "healing".

Its just part of the collection of unused oddities that litter my inventory :)

Thorax The Dark
02-28-2015, 04:37 PM
Too many players have their hidden preferences mixed in with their questions / statements. In reference to people dictating which guns denote "skill" and which denounce it. I think the real skill is the game programmers who designed the weapons etc. People that have played the game for along time seem to expect things out of a game, like its their toaster. They want their toast just right. Fact of the matter is with this game and many others we are just borrowing the toast and enjoying whats to offer instead of biting the hand that feeds. Too many people find these so called flaws and expect them to cut the crust for them. You should be lucky your even getting the service they provide. I understand this is a place to bounce opinions around but it must be disheartening in the mix of the amazing fan responses , to see people pick apart your work. Rome was not built in a day, the expectations people imply with their questions / statements seems selfish and arbitrary to the actual success a game. What you want in a game is second always to what the people in charge want and that should be respected. Also great to see the changes happy with whatever just love playing the game.

Quebeldorf
03-03-2015, 11:27 AM
Why don't you start scoring all of the events as you do the Volge Swarm events, with points for damage and points for assist (healing and reviving i assume)? This way, people who do tons of damage (or healing), are rewarded for it, whether they use a BMG, Infector or pocket knife. It's not really fair to disparage a single gun, such as a BMGs as no skill, as you still have to be able to stay alive when hitting multiple mobs, and if you can do a significant amount of damage with one, why not? I'd say the same for any weapon, whether its popular or not. As long as you're significantly helping an event, you should get credit for it. Not everyone has the same skill set, and I feel this is why there are a huge array of guns. Some people can use a Sniper rifle more effectively, and some people can use a shotgun more effectively. You shouldn't be penalized on the type of gun you use, merely scoring should be based on how well you help the event.

I would suggest adding a particle effects setting, so you can turn off things like explosions, BMG streams and the BMG shield bubbles. This would get rid of 90% of the complains people have with "non bullet" guns. A lot of games have this feature, and it would significantly help out during large events with multiple players.

Just my 2c ;)

SilverWF
03-03-2015, 11:31 AM
I've been taking a look at the game economy lately, specifically the rate at which you gain currencies, and am going to make some changes to shift rewards more towards skill than luck. I'm expecting this will go out with the Alcatraz update.

TL;DR version: I'm removing woot loot and increasing the rewards given out for event score.

The longer version:
Woot loot is the term for the items that a player spews out to everyone around them when they gain EGO ratings, level up weapons, vehicles, etc. It's a fun idea, sharing the celebration of success, but presents some problems when trying to get a handle on the balance of the game economy. Basically, the amount of woot loot you get, and its conversion to scrip or salvage income, is entirely dependent upon how many players are around you and their EGO rating. This has a huge variance. Its not uncommon for woot loot to make up anywhere from 0% to 80% of the income for a play session, though the average is about 25%.

Woot loot is also not tied to the skill or success of the player gaining the loot. It's just about being in the right place at the right time. I've been wanting to increase the rewards players get for being skillful in events for a while, but the variable income from woot loot has made that difficult to do in a balanced way.

To address this, I'm going to remove woot loot and shift those rewards to what you get for high scores in events, increasing them by roughly 25%. This keeps the currency income rate about what it is now, but makes it more consistent and puts it in the hands of the players, rewarding them more for doing well in events instead of just being lucky.

Rashere

I'm didn't get this... Are you planning to remove items from world drop table? Why? What a reason for this?

BC001
03-03-2015, 01:51 PM
Instead of the final blow being so important; why not dole out point value based upon percentage of enemy health dealt by a player... nothing spectacular; if you are crit seeking you would be receiving points at an increased rate than that of someone 'tagging' an enemy with a low grade DoT.

That is simply another damage-done metric, it is more weapon dependent than skill dependent though getting crits does help if the weapon has a good crit bonus and of course if one can hit a crit spot with it (which is a matter of the accuracy value and projectile characteristics as much as skill).

People have been requesting that pure-damage rewards be heavily favored so they can use their unicorns to get top tier rewards for a while now. If taken too far it would result in a situation like the WM were only two types of weapons are practical to use.

And then there are the support roles.

'Tagging' can be done for a lot of reasons, not just getting a piece of every mob for score inflation. I use it with flare pistols as a means of fire suppression for example since many mobs cease fire and roll or do other things that hamper their performance when they are in fire.

Keeping as many of them burning and rolling as possible does wonders for survivability for myself and allies who would take a hail of fire otherwise. Plate slicer weapons are another good example, once the plates are broken it is more advantageous to the group to switch to another target that still has them rather than go for the kill on the broken one.

Setting up a machine to recognize real skillful actions is not simple or easy. Rules can be made that look for certain specific actions and award points accordingly but since the machine does not know the intentions of a player it is more like mechanically hitting the right combinations in pinball than a real recognition of skill or creative ideas in a fluid combat situation.

One way to reduce gaming the system rather than doing the scenario as skillfully as possible would be to have several sets of “skill detection” rules appropriate to the scenario with different weightings and randomly select from them each time an event comes up so no one knows how it should be gamed. Of course that would have the downside of possibly making it all seem like it does not matter what a player does.



As to the BMG complaints; as they stand now the ONLY reason to use one is to abuse the scoring system; I haven't found a way of being decent at either offense or healing with them. So I guess that would be a weapon category the Devs might want to take a look at to try and make it viable; or oust it entirely. Though on a single target the BMG was useful with my duo partner in keeping me alive while I was blasting things.

Your mileage may vary of course, as I am relatively new to this particular game.

The old BMG abuse myth again...

While they do need some adjustments to performance the main thing is that people do not seem to realize they are a kind of support weapon. And of course there are those who assume that anyone not using a top DPS weapon (or even just using any weapon they do not personally like in some cases) has to be using it for some kind of exploit. Sure, some will abuse things like that but it is hardly a universal thing and certainly not the only reason for people to use one.

On the damage side they have all sorts of advantages like auto-aim and chain damage and even a secondary function (healing) which cut down on the raw damage they should have using the general weapon construction philosophy (though it may be cut down too far at the moment).

They are meant to thin out trash mobs and scratch up shields to make it easier for normal weapons to take out the tougher ones. In this they do a lackluster but still adequate job for the most part, especially the plate slicer syn ones. Making them eligible for a nano might help, though with the relatively low damage they do the nano penalties could make them useless instead.

The healing and protection side has its problems but it is often better than nothing. The SFX need to be toned down (and the Devs are making progress dealing with that already on PTS it looks like) and the protection fail bug that often makes the shield bubble nothing but an annoying cosmetic effect needs to be dealt with. It does not have a lot of healing power but it can make the difference in not getting downed nonetheless.

ShadrachVS
03-04-2015, 07:47 PM
Skill or Tactics... The two are not the same. Tactics is using the proper weapon or style of fighting for that fight; your flare example versus the Mutant mobs that react when they are on fire. That is not tagging, that is crowd control; an excellent tactic.
Skill would be taking a Sniper Rifle with very high critical multiplier into any of the wild fights, and constantly making head shots; some game mechanics apply, but the percentage of their effect seems to be pretty low with any practice.
I agree with your logic that there should be other metrics involved, but those metrics should take into account activity. Perhaps bonuses then for preparedness; using Electric weapons versus shielded enemies, using plateslicer synergy versus armor (which I haven't read into, but you alluded to), and so forth... though I am not really up to speed on all of the mechanics and energy/nano effects.

I guess the only disagreement I have with your post, thanks for the information and opinion, is that you seem to conflate skill and tactics... Skill is mechanical, tactics are mental... and even that statement is a grossly simplified explanation. If you do not however consider the two to be the same, then I apologize if the statement offends, it was not the intent.

[EDIT] Almost forgot, the BMG thing, I have seen repeatedly on this forum people claiming it was only for score abuse, I haven't even tested it; I did not, and still do not have the evidence to dispute either side of the claim. My experience was that the OJ level BMG I had was a poor damage output and mostly ineffective healing item... the only time it seemed to perform well was when I was dealing with Massive amounts of players/enemies at once and fairly well clustered. In that case I would rather use my Northstar or another area effect weapon.

Harwood
03-05-2015, 02:23 PM
What about scrap? I have a ton of scrap and I don't see where to spend them anyway near as fast as I am getting it. From a conversation over the Twitch feed awhile ago; Since you have devs from Flagship Studio who worked on Hellgate (Defiance really shows roots in Hellgate. And that is a great thing) I was wondering if scrap could be used similar to the scrap in Hellgate, especially crafting.

To explain to those of you readers that didn't play Hellgate:London, you were able to breakdown loot into various kinds of scrap. Scrap usually took up much less space in your backpack, and many items broken down could fit in the same space as scrap stacked. The scrap could be taken to a crafting vendor, with or without a blueprint, and made into a item, plus paying for labor in currency. If one had crafting skill you can craft yourself, when in a safe area.

If a new vendor (Makers) could be created that specifically worked in the aforementioned way that would be handy. They could make mods, shields and weapons. Sell blueprints for higher quality (Purple and Orange) for Bits, which helps your paycheck. As far as game mechanics, we are gaining scrap at great pace, and few ways to spend it. I am sure a query of the character scrap balances would bear this out.

Thank you.

Higher_Optix
04-01-2015, 10:30 PM
This sounds actually great.

Though I foresee a whole lot of people relying on BMGs and hatchlings/infectors during events to get their score boosted to the top, and we all know those weapons gives great score but doesn't add at all to the success on events. If they do it already for just a mere couple of arkforge imagine what can it be when it will determine who gets the good loot and who doesn't. :worried:

word.<--too short; I agree that this will likely see a large increase in people relying on BMGs and the like. I won't lie, I've done this myself and it works like a charm to top the score sheet. I have 735 inventory slots over 6 toons -all full, bout half are weapons of every type; I enjoy using many different types. I quit running my BMG loadout within like 4 or 5 days -while I was scoring top 5 consistently, I was bored out of my mind doing so. After all, I don't think anyone jumps on a game with "YES! I can't WAIT for this to load so I can bore myself to tears" in mind. Like to see the devs working towards creating a better overall experience for us gamers. Keep up the good work n stuff. Peace. -Optix.

WhiteStrike
04-02-2015, 03:50 AM
What about scrap? I have a ton of scrap and I don't see where to spend them anyway near as fast as I am getting it. From a conversation over the Twitch feed awhile ago; Since you have devs from Flagship Studio who worked on Hellgate (Defiance really shows roots in Hellgate. And that is a great thing) I was wondering if scrap could be used similar to the scrap in Hellgate, especially crafting.

To explain to those of you readers that didn't play Hellgate:London, you were able to breakdown loot into various kinds of scrap. Scrap usually took up much less space in your backpack, and many items broken down could fit in the same space as scrap stacked. The scrap could be taken to a crafting vendor, with or without a blueprint, and made into a item, plus paying for labor in currency. If one had crafting skill you can craft yourself, when in a safe area.

If a new vendor (Makers) could be created that specifically worked in the aforementioned way that would be handy. They could make mods, shields and weapons. Sell blueprints for higher quality (Purple and Orange) for Bits, which helps your paycheck. As far as game mechanics, we are gaining scrap at great pace, and few ways to spend it. I am sure a query of the character scrap balances would bear this out.

Thank you.

Blueprints for OJs would be pure pay-to-win.

Alastar
04-03-2015, 10:41 PM
Pay to win would be a massive improvement over pay to gamble. Ijs.