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Kalizaar
04-05-2013, 12:15 PM
In most MMOs combat/weapon damage and effectiveness is eventually figured out and formulas are created. In many of these games weapons already have an artificial DPS or weapon power number attached to them in order to give players an easy tool in deciding what weapons are "better" or not.

In this game we are given a quality level, a quality color, and in comparisons a red/green for individual stat decrease/increase, but those tools only give a very vague impression on whether one weapon is truly better than another or not.

It's easy to compare the weapon stat between two weapons and know that 200 damage is better than 50 damage even without having the 200 in green. However, when weapon speed is much worse/better it suddenly become much less clear on which weapon would be more effective. Throw in clip size, reload speed, bloom, etc. and it's enough to make you say "Screw it" and simply equip whichever weapon looks more badass.

Has anyone come up with some ideas (or better yet formulas!) yet on a good way to compare weapons besides simply saying "Well, this one has 2 green numbers so it must be better!" or are we too new to the game still? I attempted to approach this subject in testing and there was the beginning to some good discussion as far as what individual stats on weapons mean, but I don't think it got much further than that.

Komakala
04-05-2013, 12:30 PM
It kinda depends. I mean are you looking for burst damage, sustained damage, high nano effect damage?

For me my most important stats when choosing an automatic weapon is Rate of Fire, Damage, Magazine Size and Recoil, Bloom is a bit of an afterthought, but not by much.

When I'm looking at sniper rifles I look at base damage and crit modifier.

These probably aren't even close to the type of answers you're asking for. I don't have any particular formulas as of yet, but I have certain base numbers I look for when comparing weapons.

AmishWarMachine
04-05-2013, 12:31 PM
.....

Has anyone come up with some ideas (or better yet formulas!) yet on a good way to compare weapons besides simply saying "Well, this one has 2 green numbers so it must be better!" or are we too new to the game still? I attempted to approach this subject in testing and there was the beginning to some good discussion as far as what individual stats on weapons mean, but I don't think it got much further than that.

Tc = (Clip Size/Rate of Fire) Time it takes to empty the weapon's clip
Tr = (Weapon Reload Stat) Time it takes to reload the weapon

Dc = (Clip Size*Damage per Round) Damage an entire clip of regular hits would produce
Dm = (Critical Multiplier Stat) If shooting non-critical locations, set to 1

DoT = (Dc*Dm)/(Tc+Tr)

Very basic, would not factor in any elemental damages, etc... but would give a ballpark idea of a weapon's base DPS for a single firing cycle.

The infector weapon calculation would be even more complex.

Maceyp
04-24-2013, 09:56 AM
Tc = (Clip Size/Rate of Fire) Time it takes to empty the weapon's clip
Tr = (Weapon Reload Stat) Time it takes to reload the weapon

Dc = (Clip Size*Damage per Round) Damage an entire clip of regular hits would produce
Dm = (Critical Multiplier Stat) If shooting non-critical locations, set to 1

DoT = (Dc*Dm)/(Tc+Tr)

Very basic, would not factor in any elemental damages, etc... but would give a ballpark idea of a weapon's base DPS for a single firing cycle.

The infector weapon calculation would be even more complex.

This is almost identical to the formula i have used myself on an excel spreadsheet. I have 2 different formulas in play as it stands one for working out damage including reload. And another without the reload. i.e. boss becomes vulnerable you switch weapon crit hit blah blah switch back to normal weapon. no reload. :)

Slimicus
04-28-2013, 09:27 AM
It seems like Burst delay has a huge impact too. In testing, a weapon with a burst delay can empty almost an entire two seconds later than the same weapon without one (if that were possible) which, for example, using mostly the same formulas in this thread can reduce the damage of a weapon like VBI TACC Assault Rifle by 30%.

If I did this right, I got that Fire Rate 15 and Mag of 30 on a VBI TACC should unload in 2 seconds, in testing though, the best I could get was around 3.8 seconds.

Suprisingly, the effect is more minimized on semi automatic weapons with single shot rounds, I'm guessing the delay between shots is as small as the input latency (about 40ms for me) on a semi auto, but in a burst per mag weapon, there's a full delay before the weapon is ready. But that's just my guess... I added another component to the calculation of:

If weapon is burstable (per meg), then TC = TC + ((ClipSize / 3) * BurstDelay, (using BurstDelay of .18)
If weapon is burstable (per shot), then TC = TC + ((ClipSize) * BurstDelay, (using BurstDelay of .02)

Time to Empty Clip = F2/E2+(IF(I2=1,$R$3,0)*(F2/3)) + (IF(I2=2,$R$4,0)*(F2))

E = Fire Rate
F = Mag
I = BurstType (0=None, 1=Per Mag, 2=Per Shot)
R3 = Per Mag = 0.180
R4 = Per Shot = 0.020

Using a stop watch these times seem to be holding up so far, but I've got a lot more guns to test.

Dwane
04-28-2013, 09:59 AM
In most MMOs combat/weapon damage and effectiveness is eventually figured out and formulas are created. In many of these games weapons already have an artificial DPS or weapon power number attached to them in order to give players an easy tool in deciding what weapons are "better" or not.

In most MMOs u cant directly affect crit. Also crit-hitzone-multiplier varies. Theres also not real CD on weapons and u cant theorycraft aiming time for snipes, pauses in autofire, recoil...

Simply: DPS is widely affected by player.

Slimicus
04-28-2013, 05:19 PM
Well here's my attempt, so far it seems to be working out well. I've tested the the weapon reload delays, taken averages, and adjust crit ratio to my own play style:

http://i.imgur.com/FJ4uQWg.png?1

I added best choice as a factor in the total amount of damage the weapon is capable of given all the ammo being used for it as well.

My inventory is a lot cleaner for it :)

Apoptygma
07-01-2013, 04:51 AM
Slimicus, how did you calculate the burst delay and what does burst type mean? I've build the same sheet but the burst part I haven't sorted out so the TACC looks like it's doing insane damage of course

Conflictinator
07-23-2013, 11:28 PM
Hi Slimicus

I have been playing defiance for only a few days now but not having damage calculations on the weapons is driving me nuts -- I feel like most of the limited time I have to play is just trying to figure out what weapons to scrap. On games like this before I have made really complicated web based programs to try to figure out dps but I am a bit low on time these days for that kind of side project ;). I would love to take a look at your spread sheet. Could you post it here? I would really love to take a look at it.

Thanks much to you and the others in this thread for the info.

Best regards

Will


Well here's my attempt, so far it seems to be working out well. I've tested the the weapon reload delays, taken averages, and adjust crit ratio to my own play style:

http://i.imgur.com/FJ4uQWg.png?1

I added best choice as a factor in the total amount of damage the weapon is capable of given all the ammo being used for it as well.

My inventory is a lot cleaner for it :)

Maitreakow
07-24-2013, 06:06 AM
So top is SAW, no big surprise there. Second is the ROCKER!?!?!

Even discounting a possible error with the Rocker, is it really any wonder they are looking at a damage reduction for the SAW? Yes, I love the weapon. I used no other LMG to get to level 20.

IT NEEDS A NERF period dot

Conflictinator
07-27-2013, 04:16 PM
Hi All

I took a moment to put these equations into a google spread sheet. I also added a section for shields, added more support for weapon burst modes, and added an option for weapons that have to reload one bullet at a time (some shot guns I noticed seem to do this).

I don't have alot of time to play so I probably won't be adding that many weapons to the spread sheet. If any one else with a bigger arsenal would like to add stuff to it / make any improvements just let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnM2i64VS62hdDV6a0FxMXhwd0dlZkdOYXgyVzhKd 2c#gid=0

I hope every one is having a good weekend.

Best

Will

JxSiN
07-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Cool, a list to give to Trion so they know which weapons to nerf next.

Conflictinator
08-04-2013, 02:08 PM
Lol, well not to be siding with the man or anything but if they did some buffing and nerfing it would lead to more builds that would be viable. That could be an improvement. Also I bet they have their own internal tools to figure out DPS already.

Peace

Will


Cool, a list to give to Trion so they know which weapons to nerf next.

DarknessEyes PT
08-04-2013, 02:25 PM
In most MMOs combat/weapon damage and effectiveness is eventually figured out and formulas are created. In many of these games weapons already have an artificial DPS or weapon power number attached to them in order to give players an easy tool in deciding what weapons are "better" or not.

In this game we are given a quality level, a quality color, and in comparisons a red/green for individual stat decrease/increase, but those tools only give a very vague impression on whether one weapon is truly better than another or not.

It's easy to compare the weapon stat between two weapons and know that 200 damage is better than 50 damage even without having the 200 in green. However, when weapon speed is much worse/better it suddenly become much less clear on which weapon would be more effective. Throw in clip size, reload speed, bloom, etc. and it's enough to make you say "Screw it" and simply equip whichever weapon looks more badass.

Has anyone come up with some ideas (or better yet formulas!) yet on a good way to compare weapons besides simply saying "Well, this one has 2 green numbers so it must be better!" or are we too new to the game still? I attempted to approach this subject in testing and there was the beginning to some good discussion as far as what individual stats on weapons mean, but I don't think it got much further than that.

CALC1 = dmg * mag
CALC2 = (mag / fire rate) + reload
DPS = CALC1 / CALC2

Doesn't include crit hits or nano effects.

Conflictinator
08-04-2013, 03:48 PM
Hi DarknessEye

I took crits into account in my spread sheet but I have no clue how to calculate nano effects. I also didn't bother with Infectors or BMGs (though I could make some other sheets for those potentially as well).

Info on infector damage can be found here: http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?56673-Infector-Guide


Here is the google spreadsheet I made using the formulas posted here and a few of my own.

If you want to add weapons to it just request access through google, I don't have that much time to put stuff into it these days my self so hoping some others might want to take it over.

Cheers

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnM2i64VS62hdDV6a0FxMXhwd0dlZkdOYXgyVzhKd 2c#gid=0

Will


CALC1 = dmg * mag
CALC2 = (mag / fire rate) + reload
DPS = CALC1 / CALC2

Doesn't include crit hits or nano effects.

Argento
08-11-2014, 09:51 AM
mmmm the recoil makes the saw has less dps that L 43 thunder, because the saw got to do 3 burst shots to the reticle remains stable.
Mathematically it is better, but in practice it is not.
You can not maintain a rate of fire 8 continuously, with the saw.
I'm talking no crit
with crit wins saw for very little

TalynOne
08-11-2014, 10:25 AM
mmmm the recoil makes the saw has less dps that L 43 thunder, because the saw got to do 3 burst shots to the reticle remains stable.
Mathematically it is better, but in practice it is not.
You can not maintain a rate of fire 8 continuously, with the saw.
I'm talking no crit
with crit wins saw for very little

You necromanced a thread over a year old. The info in this thread is grossly out of date. There have been many new weapons introduced and old weapons buffed / debuffed since this post was created.