PDA

View Full Version : Defiance's PvP is bad. Here's why, and what I think TRION can do to fix it.



Real
04-05-2013, 04:14 PM
I stare at the matchmaking queue.

I queue up and am put into the game.

First, I notice that my team mates all have the same outfit. “That’s fine,” I think to myself. I do note that this could lead to a little stimuli exhaustion later on.

I equip my Heavy Fire Elemental Shotgun, which has blasted multiple enemies at a time in PvE. I also equip my Purple Infector gun, which has done me incredible wonders in PvE in terms of single target damage. I consider my build to be tank-y. I feel more powerful when my shield is down than when it is up, simply because of the amount of bonuses I get (again, in PvE) when it’s gone.
I’m a defensive wrecking ball, I think to myself. I may not be able to dish out a ton of damage, but boy, can I take it. And don’t let me get close to you either, because when I’m close to you… I’m going to give you a run for your “scrip!”

Turns out, I was wrong.

Let me tell you first – and correct me if I’m wrong here. There’s a comfort zone that becomes established early on in the game that gives each weapon, each EGO point, a sense of value. A sense of value that doesn’t necessarily confine you to a class, but towards a certain playstyle. Shotguns aren’t the best in Player vs. Environment levels, let’s face it. But if your EGO build allows you to mitigate a certain amount of damage, you don’t mind getting up-close and person with combat, showering multiple enemies in a hailstorm of buckshot.

That isn’t the case in PvP.

I look at my minimap, expecting multiple players to stick together, flanking the enemy in the OBVIOUS directional areas that could provide a tactical advantage. Although this isn’t common in FPSes, the map design lends itself to a more “classical” shooter playstyle. Altitude matters. There’s corridors everywhere. Tight spots. It’s almost like there was a breakdown between the people who created the PvP maps and those who made the weapons/core gameplay mechanics.
I ask my teammates via voice chat: “Where are you guys going? Aren’t we going to stick together?”

Three of them laugh simultaneously.

That’s when four of them switch to their Shotguns and press 1 in perfect harmony, their translucent bodies speeding away from one another. I run across the map and take down a lone enemy. Easy. My victory comes to a halt as a random enemy – with no visual indication whatsoever, appears from nowhere and shoots me with a grenade launcher, and in one hit, I’m dead and gone.
Two problems here: For a game that depends so much on visual indication, whether it be through reviving a dead enemy, or noticing a far off enemy, the fact that a player has the ability to instantaneously unstealth and kill me from medium range in one hit is disconcerting. No unstealth animation precedes his forthcoming. No inability for him to fire for at least a split second. Just 1, click, death. Interestingly enough, I watched the “killcam” and he was able to stealth again within 5 seconds.

The second thing. For us players to be so close in EGO level, why is there no motivation for someone to build a defensive-minded character? Despite few miniscule bonuses, there is much greater incentive in PvP to go full-out stealth and damage, none of which are accounted for in a defensive bonus in me “crouching”. Defiance rewards those who constantly out-maneuver, jump, and sprint. Taking the game “slowly” and playing “tactfully” isn’t. I understand that. But, it is one thing to eliminate a certain defensive mindset solely to appease players who wish to build into the speed/recon mindset. Defensive bonuses could either be set to play more manner fully into the speed of PvP, such as a damage mitigation while sprinting or jumping. Or, offensive classes could have bonuses for crouching or any “standing still” movements, other than reloading.

The speed of Shotguns within PvP is offset by the ability to jump while shooting. The slower fire rate is easily mitigated for the ability for players to not only stealth RIGHT after letting loose a shot, but the ability to force the enemy to second guess his next shot placement. A weapon that was once designed in PvE for close-combat, defensive-minded players, is a close-combat, speedy weapon that has no bearings for close combat, but rather for stealth. This can be fixed by placing various speed bonuses/detriments to weapons. For example, Shotguns and LMGs could cause lower jump height/runspeed in PvP. Sniper Rifles having medium run detriment. Infectors/SMGs having the least because of small base damage and high ROF, and low TTK.

PvP is a whole different ball game from PvE, and not in a good sense in Defiance. The EGO-Perk centricity in PvE is sacrificed for speed of play and low TTK in PvP, and in a sense, it makes the sense of customization that comes with a classless game useless. Make your features matter, Trion. Don’t make this another soulless FPS game that loses its competitive nature because only certain weapons are viable.

TL;DR:
Certain playsets are discouraged in PvP, making 40-50% of EGO perks useless.
Certain weapons lose their constrictive natures because of high base runspeed and EGO abilities, making them overpowered.
Visual cues are not available, often making PvP a headscratching experience.
Comfort zone established in low level-mid level PvE is shattered upon PvP entry, turning many players off the mode in general.
Defensive players are at disadvantage because of maneuverability of offensive-built players, having perks like crouching for a pretty significant defensive bonus is offset by the ability of players to cloak, bunny hop, or sprint.

Glossary:
TTK: Time to kill
PvP: Player vs. Player
Mitigation: Lessening force/damage/intensity
ROF: Rate of fire

Tekkor
04-05-2013, 04:43 PM
First of all I will give thanks for posting a well spoken post that does attempt to not just whine but offer your opinion on some things to do in order to improve what you see as faults.

However...a few things I would like to point out...

This game has been out like 4 days. There have been way too many of these types of posts. I think (note Im not saying this is what happen to you) what is happening is people are playing 2-3 PvP matches...get owned by some ninja shotgunners and then come post end of the world topics.

I agree that there is probably some PvP balancing that needs to happen. But if Trion did every change this forums has suggested in the first 4 days of release they might as well just turn the game off and give everyone refunds. In a game like this you have to give it at least 10-20 days to gather data and see what people are doing, what shenanigans are going on and then make changes. Not to make knee-jerk reactions after 2 days of people playing a handful of matches and not liking that they got owned by someone.

My first two days I was getting stomped in PvP. I stepped back and tried to evaluate some tactics. Im not a bunny hopper. But I do utilize the roll/dodge. I was one-shotted early on. I studied the Perks...read a few threads. I learned to spec defensive abilities on my PvP Loadout. One shot deaths pretty much ended.

I changed my shield mod to a Ironclad with a high capacity. This helped also. I changed my grenade to a AoE electric blind/electrocute one...I throw it in choke-point areas to reveal stealth players.

My results dramatically improved. I went from rounds of 2 Kills and 6 deaths to more of 6 Kills and 2 Deaths or better.

I guess what Im saying is....good post for being level headed. But...give it some time. Try to adapt your tactics. Learn the maps. Learn the perks. Give it a bit.

Also feel free to check a video I did on this very subject here: Tekk's Tavern: PvP Tips and Info (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fZX1UaaxpI)

Hope it helps a bit. Good Luck! =)

g0dm0d
04-05-2013, 06:04 PM
Some very good points in this thread. I do agree that the cloak can be very frustrating as the level of stealth is impossible to spot unlike other shooters. But I do feel that in time this will all be balanced. We are still in the first week of a massive undertaking. And Trion has proven that it is listening and working on the issues at hand. I feel that they are currently however focusing big on the Lag and server issues. And then all the other good stuff will be following.

Good post though and hopefully we will see some great changes soon but even as it is I feel that PvP is a very fun aspect of the game! They really have the opportunity to meld it into a very amazing experience.

treytreyex
04-05-2013, 08:46 PM
So I realize that the OP is not exactly whining or throwing a fit like alot of other people are. However that doesn't make his argument more right do to the fact that he is actually acting civil. I do very much appreciate that he can state his complaints about a game without flaming excessively hard or calling the game absolutely broken. However, I do see a lot of faults or misconceptions stated about the PvP experience.


I equip my Heavy Fire Elemental Shotgun, which has blasted multiple enemies at a time in PvE. I also equip my Purple Infector gun, which has done me incredible wonders in PvE in terms of single target damage. I consider my build to be tank-y.

The biggest issue with this statement is that you cannot compare effectiveness in a PvE environment where you are fighting NPC's controlled by the AI as far as movement, cover usage, and attacking back to what you will experience in a PvP environment. If an NPC gets repeatedly headshot right after respawn because he runs in a straight line from his spawn the NPC will not start zig zagging when he spawns.

So what I'm getting at is that the difficulty of hitting multiple targets of actual players standing together with your shotgun or killing something fast in single target because he stands still and does a tumble every 30 seconds does not compare to what you can accomplish in a PvE environment.

Also you said you consider your build to be "tank-y". What shield are you using and what perks are you using? What quality and what level? How are you using your perks and how often are you using your EGO power? etc.


Shotguns aren’t the best in Player vs. Environment levels, let’s face it. But if your EGO build allows you to mitigate a certain amount of damage, you don’t mind getting up-close and person with combat, showering multiple enemies in a hailstorm of buckshot.

Again this can be addressed with the fact that NPC's do not aim for the head at all or as often as a player in a PvP encounter would. Getting shot in the head can do at least twice as much damage as you would normally take from a body shot. So if you feel that you are "tank-y" in PvE you can then put a value on your tankiness and cut the effectiveness in half on a worst case scenario where every shot hits you in the head in a PvP instance.


flanking the enemy in the OBVIOUS directional areas that could provide a tactical advantage.

In a PvP scenario where the player you are versing isn't programmed to think a certain way, if the route they are going to take is OBVIOUS then perhaps they might see it as OBVIOUS as you do and go a different way?


I ask my teammates via voice chat: “Where are you guys going? Aren’t we going to stick together?”

I'm going to step lightly on this one because I am definitely a supporter of community interaction as well as making new friendships within the game. But you must realize that you are more than likely doing a solo queue which means you are paired up with 7-31+ people on your team that you do not know and who do not know you. In any other MMO if you play a PvP scenario you will have the different archetypes. You will have at least 40% of the group feel that they are "Superman" and are going to carry the group on their shoulders by going different directions. You are going to have 1-2 people that are currently eating and semi afk. You will have a bot that is running around in circles dying, 30% of the group will be people who can't speak english and/or don't listen, and the remainder will be people saying "can't we all get along and work together?".

The fact is people aren't always willing or capable of working together and that's a risk you take in a solo PvP scenario.


The second thing. For us players to be so close in EGO level, why is there no motivation for someone to build a defensive-minded character? Despite few miniscule bonuses, there is much greater incentive in PvP to go full-out stealth and damage, none of which are accounted for in a defensive bonus in me “crouching”. Defiance rewards those who constantly out-maneuver, jump, and sprint. Taking the game “slowly” and playing “tactfully” isn’t. I understand that. But, it is one thing to eliminate a certain defensive mindset solely to appease players who wish to build into the speed/recon mindset. Defensive bonuses could either be set to play more manner fully into the speed of PvP, such as a damage mitigation while sprinting or jumping. Or, offensive classes could have bonuses for crouching or any “standing still” movements, other than reloading.

In what other third person shooter have you seen a "build" that encourages limited movement, stationary gameplay, and sitting and "tanking" shots? In all honesty that would encourage people to sit in a corner with all defensive perks and have a grenade launcher and an lmg and just "tank" aka camp.


Just 1, click, death. Interestingly enough, I watched the “killcam” and he was able to stealth again within 5 seconds.

The "killcam" is very similar to Crysis or Battlefield where it shows the actions of the player that killed you AFTER you die. A killcam would refer to a small replay that led up to your death from the point of view of the person who killed you. You already answered this in the next paragraph. If you use the stealth EGO power and you shoot someone and there is still a duration left, as long as you are not taking damage and you have stopped shooting then you will "slip" back into stealth.


Visual cues are not available, often making PvP a headscratching experience.

The 4 EGO powers that I am familiar with are Blur, Cloak, Decoy and Overcharge.

Blur: When a character activates Blur, any movement will leave a trail of a blue figure behind you enhancing the visual cue of "moving fast".

Cloak: I've read about this a lot and from personal experience as well as watching a number of streams, if you look close enough there is a distorted outline created by the character that is stealthed and it does appear off enough for you to shoot in that direction.

Decoy: A visual cue would be pointless for this since it is meant to be a decoy or a fake version of yourself in order to distract others. The "visual cue" would be when you do like 200+ damage to it then the decoy is destroyed.

Overcharge: Your entire gun turns a bright pulsating orange!

I believe that those are visual cues that I have been able to successfully use to attempt to negate the bonus effects of those EGO powers.

There's probably more that I could address but my brain is fried from work at the moment. If anything send me an invite in game and we can do some PvP together. There's plenty of things that can be learned about the game. I don't claim to know it all but I do feel that your viewpoint is drastically skewed by either a small sample of games with bad experiences or (no offense intended) perhaps you aren't very good at PvP at the moment and it will take more practice and experience before you can fully enjoy the PvP experience.

Good Luck,

treytreyex

thejx4
04-05-2013, 09:38 PM
Cloak: I've read about this a lot and from personal experience as well as watching a number of streams, if you look close enough there is a distorted outline created by the character that is stealthed and it does appear off enough for you to shoot in that direction.


Honestly, how many times have you seen a cloaked player in pvp before you saw him activate it? An infector/elemental effect is probably the only way you'll see them. Is doesn't have that "see through mirror" effect most games have. In Shadow War, it's damn near impossible to see them, even if they're right in front of you. However, I think everyone complaining about Cloak has been focusing on the wrong thing, despite it's glaring issues. It's the SHOTGUN. How often have you been killed by someone running with Cloak and an AR? Or an Infector? Or a sniper rifle? It doesn't happen. Shotguns absolutely suck in PvE, unless you're the only/one of the few players in any given area. Take it into PvP with cloak, and you're a monster. Plus with the perks that change positional damage...it becomes a huge problem. I don't even bother with instanced PvP. It's all close quarters. You won't beat a shotgun on a close quarters map. I love how they nerfed RPGs to the point that they are completely useless, but ignored the noob cloak/shotgun massacre combo. Either buff everything else, or nerf shotguns. Oh, and PLEASE add 1-2 second cooldown for rolling.

Honved
04-05-2013, 10:57 PM
As a cloaker I can spot other cloakers quickly, the shimmer like heat off of black top, the random light blue flicker, there are warning signs. However I feel like weapons can be toned down without making them useless, Shotguns with less pellets, grenade launchers with smaller clips, longer reload times, so on and so forth. Everyone has their problem build, mine are bmg's, I can never seem to kill them as they drain me to death and heal themselves.

Edit: Blur with shotgun>Cloak with shotgun.

Fiancee
04-06-2013, 01:59 AM
I dont think its so bad...

I think Shadow War would be better if you could spawn near the capture point one (total two..) per death. That should mean theres more fighting at capture poiint and people aint so cautious, more flow basically. OR then add spawn-point vehicle, what enemy try to destroy and your mates spawn there.

Also for future they can add more maps where different kind of weapons are better.

I would also love to some vertical maps, multiple floors etc.

thejx4
04-06-2013, 09:07 PM
I dont think its so bad...

I think Shadow War would be better if you could spawn near the capture point one (total two..) per death. That should mean theres more fighting at capture poiint and people aint so cautious, more flow basically. OR then add spawn-point vehicle, what enemy try to destroy and your mates spawn there.

Also for future they can add more maps where different kind of weapons are better.

I would also love to some vertical maps, multiple floors etc.

Defiance has a reoccurring theme of multi-story buildings being a rare find.