PDA

View Full Version : Gambling awareness endorsement for defiance?



Deadeye Joe
11-05-2015, 10:51 AM
So, i was mulling over the nature of bitstore boxes and i can't help but see a casino. gambling is a regulated practice and as such, profitable gambling agents are required to have some form of gambling awareness endorsement etc... at least in the uk, can't speak for elsenwheres upon god's good earth, since i limit my cultural boundaries to the four walls of my living room. lol.

so here's how gambleaware.co.uk defines gambling:

'Gambling is taking part in a game during which you risk money, or something of monetary value, in order to win money or a prize. The outcome of the game is usually down to chance, so when gambling you might leave with less money than you started off with, and sometimes with nothing at all.' (gambleaware.co.uk)

if you are willing, lets make this a point of discussion. please try to present all opinions as opinions and hopefully we can avoid all the passive aggressive one-upmanship that this forum is so often prone to. what are your thoughts on the bitstore lockbox roulette wheel? should it be rightfully attributed as profitable gambling? or am i a tool, seeking to divert your attentions from more prevalent issues? lol. thoughts?

Keeper Riff
11-05-2015, 11:10 AM
You don't risk your money because you lose them at the very moment you buy bits. You can't win a prize because everything you get from the boxes is still Trion's property.

Deadeye Joe
11-05-2015, 11:41 AM
an interesting notion, do you mean to say that as any property gained is subjective of a loan-to-use principle, that the gambling model cannot be implemented? i would be inclined to agree, especially as far as the sale of bits is concerned, because it overrules the exchange of money in a game or action of chance into a technically speaking hollow and theoretical form of tender. however as the definition provided in op says, gambling is the risk of money OR something of monetary value. i suspect no further argument needs to be made on the subject, due to the fact trion owns all assets within the game. however doesn't that in and of itself suggest an incredibly underhanded mode of business? legal tender in exchange for... nothing.

when you make a purchase from trion, you are buying nothing. absolutely nothing.

i suppose in light of that fact, gambling awareness is a moot point.

however i believe more should be done to help those that suffer by the hands zero gain monetary transaction. maybe we could get a website started?
and a crisis line?
"hello i'm in the bitstore and i need help!"
"just calm down sir, take a deep breath"
"i just can't stop! i keep buying **** all and its ruining my life!"
"o.k just breathe, remember that trion owns everything, you'll probablly just get blues..."
"i already feel pretty down..."
"No i mean blue guns and and shields"
"oh my bad, sorry i'm f2P..."
"oh god, just kill yourself." <click>



... for example.

PTR47
11-05-2015, 11:58 AM
when you make a purchase from trion, you are buying nothing. absolutely nothing.

You're purchasing the experience.

You don't own the music you buy either.

Olaf
11-05-2015, 12:05 PM
You're purchasing the experience.

You don't own the music you buy either.

Lol, yeah great experience buying bit box's from store, my life felt incomplete until then.

Ryu Soba JP
11-05-2015, 12:13 PM
This would have been interesting if it wasn't for the whole "Trion owns all content including purchases made via bitstore, DLC and can terminate any of it without cause."

We went through this when PS Home Closed after millions of gamers spent hundreds and thousands of USD$.
Including myself. I'm still upset having spent so much money and now not having anything to show for it.

EDIT: What I think needs to happen is for the Defiance Team to just increase the RNG for Legendary in supply crates, Elite Lockboxes, Arkfalls/Events and Expedition Supreme Drops.
On ps3 NA most gamers won't buy/trade anything unless it's Legendary, Jackpot or Supreme. Most epics get trashed and seems like all Rare and below get vendored as well.

I also think Trion should increase the Arkforge earned since Supreming anything on the Supreme roulette wheel also has horrible RNG. For me it was wasting over 2500 arkforge on a weapon just to have it fail. All of this is very discouraging.

hempman
11-05-2015, 12:29 PM
considering that when this games servers go down,you have nothing to show for all the time invested...
id say you are spending money on your own enjoyment factor,period.

and therein,lies the Rub.
are you getting Enough enjoyment?

atm,this is a cash Cow for trion,this is a never ending train..
people are spending Way more money than most think..
monthly syn changes,the struggles start all over again to get the best of everything...Ka-Ching
All Virtual....

when the end comes for the consoles,
i do Hope they transfer our gamersaves to Pc,
otherwise...quite the journey,to arrive emptyhanded.

Fallen_Aingeal
11-05-2015, 01:54 PM
considering that when this games servers go down,you have nothing to show for all the time invested...
id say you are spending money on your own enjoyment factor,period.

and therein,lies the Rub.
are you getting Enough enjoyment?

atm,this is a cash Cow for trion,this is a never ending train..
people are spending Way more money than most think..
monthly syn changes,the struggles start all over again to get the best of everything...Ka-Ching
All Virtual....

when the end comes for the consoles,
i do Hope they transfer our gamersaves to Pc,
otherwise...quite the journey,to arrive emptyhanded.Depends on perspective.

I'll not regret any of the time I spent logged on. When the servers go dark, I'll have experienced a pretty cool game. I don't consider that leaving "empty-handed".

It's just as any other game. When you're done, you're done. It doesn't matter what you take with you, only the experience that it was. IMO

Claydough
11-05-2015, 02:00 PM
This is why i would like at minimum for trion to advertise the % chances of the drop rate.

Esspecially when there are bugged bitstore boxes that devs are ignoring and turning a blind eye too.

Deadeye Joe
11-05-2015, 02:26 PM
Let's try to remain on topic gentlemen. I'm not here to argue the degrees of value placed upon an experience. If I lost all my money in a game of blackjack, I still have the experience of the game... Did I need to lose my money in order to have that said experience?

Let's question what we are being sold here. Average lockbox is 3 blues and a purple. Blues are worthless by most people's standards and what percentage of purps are worth keeping and upgrading?

Not too long ago there was also a post made by rashere, stating that the drop chances are loaded for desirable weapon types like ARs. So not only are we gambling away our money (I'm sorry folks, but it is gambling), the house also has the game rigged.

I am very discontent with the bitstore dice roll, I make no secret of that fact. But I know for a fact that defiance has a vast population of underage gamblers. This breed of hidden purchases, regulated by supposed Rng... Who's word do we have to go on that that system is legit? The people we are buying from... Trusty.

I for one would like to congratulate trion for legitimising gambling in a manner which requires zero regulation other than its own personal scrutiny. Also, they managed to exploit addiction as a means of driving sales of bit store lottery tickets. And before you start, yes, there are defiance addicts. Trust me.

Lol, probs gonna get banned now. Ta ta for now.

Ocho
11-05-2015, 03:35 PM
So, i was mulling over the nature of bitstore boxes and i can't help but see a casino. gambling is a regulated practice and as such, profitable gambling agents are required to have some form of gambling awareness endorsement etc... at least in the uk, can't speak for elsenwheres upon god's good earth, since i limit my cultural boundaries to the four walls of my living room. lol.

so here's how gambleaware.co.uk defines gambling:

'Gambling is taking part in a game during which you risk money, or something of monetary value, in order to win money or a prize. The outcome of the game is usually down to chance, so when gambling you might leave with less money than you started off with, and sometimes with nothing at all.' (gambleaware.co.uk)

if you are willing, lets make this a point of discussion. please try to present all opinions as opinions and hopefully we can avoid all the passive aggressive one-upmanship that this forum is so often prone to. what are your thoughts on the bitstore lockbox roulette wheel? should it be rightfully attributed as profitable gambling? or am i a tool, seeking to divert your attentions from more prevalent issues? lol. thoughts?

By the definition you have supplied above, Defiance doesn't qualify. I've bolded the relevant text. Think of it this way, there is a certain minimum baseline and possibly more that you are purchasing. If you don't like it, it isn't required.



I am very discontent with the bitstore dice roll, I make no secret of that fact.

To dig further into my previous point, the vast majority of stuff that comes out of a box is tradable. A few older costumes and cyber rigs are the only exceptions that come immediately to mind. So if you don't like the boxes, you can purchase the items you want from other players. It's an option we intentionally support to give folks an alternate way to acquire what they want.

Olaf
11-05-2015, 03:47 PM
By the definition you have supplied above, Defiance doesn't qualify. I've bolded the relevant text. Think of it this way, there is a certain minimum baseline and possibly more that you are purchasing. If you don't like it, it isn't required.



To dig further into my previous point, the vast majority of stuff that comes out of a box is tradable. A few older costumes and cyber rigs are the only exceptions that come immediately to mind. So if you don't like the boxes, you can purchase the items you want from other players. It's an option we intentionally support to give folks an alternate way to acquire what they want.

Why do bitstore items have the same vendor scrip value as a non bitstore item? Shouldn't an epic weapon purchased from the bitstore be worth more in game currency than a non bitstore epic?

Claydough
11-05-2015, 03:52 PM
So why arnt bitstore cyber rigs tradable?

Grandpa Ace
11-05-2015, 04:08 PM
So why arnt bitstore cyber rigs tradable?

Better question--why aren't Cyber rigs and chips, or at least the chips, tradable?

irisawifi
11-05-2015, 04:21 PM
I for one would like to congratulate trion for legitimising gambling in a manner which requires zero regulation other than its own personal scrutiny. Also, they managed to exploit addiction as a means of driving sales of bit store lottery tickets. And before you start, yes, there are defiance addicts. Trust me.

.

This is true for pretty much any online game, it is not a Trion exclusive issue. This is how the system works. Every game, online and in RL, uses psychological cues to keep us playing..and paying.

Also, thank you for posting this topic. I'm teaching Addiction this semester and we will be having a discussion on gaming soon. It's pretty crazy and sometimes even tragic. :( What's important is that we are aware of the chances we take, the money we spend, and the time it takes in our lives. Moderation is crucial.

TheStigsCousin
11-05-2015, 04:29 PM
I'd say the bitstore is more a game of chance than gambling. In gambling, there is no guarantee that you will win something.

pew pew pew
11-05-2015, 04:32 PM
Why do bitstore items have the same vendor scrip value as a non bitstore item? Shouldn't an epic weapon purchased from the bitstore be worth more in game currency than a non bitstore epic?Why so? Because you have paid real money? Just imagine the people who farm keycodes and the amount of money they have lost while playing this game instead of going to work ;)

You pay money for instant access to a lockbox while it comes along with an increased drop chance and often an exclusive synergy. The whole business model isn't new, it's very common.

Claydough
11-05-2015, 04:42 PM
Better question--why aren't Cyber rigs and chips, or at least the chips, tradable?

They are exploitable by farming hr with alt characters

irisawifi
11-05-2015, 04:43 PM
I'd say the bitstore is more a game of chance than gambling. In gambling, there is no guarantee that you will win something.

Agreed. In this regard, even Supreming can't be considered a gamble because you can just pay for 100% if you have the AF.

Gaming is not true 'gambling' but it does use the addictive properties of gambling to keep players playing. It's just like advertising and tapping into psychological cues to make us feel we WANT to buy the product. Every company is fighting for our attention (and wallets) ;) It's the world we live in.

Olaf
11-05-2015, 05:10 PM
Why so? Because you have paid real money? Just imagine the people who farm keycodes and the amount of money they have lost while playing this game instead of going to work ;)

You pay money for instant access to a lockbox while it comes along with an increased drop chance and often an exclusive synergy. The whole business model isn't new, it's very common.

Because it's a paid for item with real money? What does farming key codes have to do with anything... Bitstore items should be worth 10x the ingame vendor value of non bitstore acquired items.

Dixie Cougar
11-05-2015, 05:13 PM
You guys do realize that the market value of many blue mods from bitstore only synergies is considerably higher than their vendor value right??

Ray8888
11-05-2015, 05:19 PM
Not too long ago there was also a post made by rashere, stating that the drop chances are loaded for desirable weapon types like ARs. So not only are we gambling away our money (I'm sorry folks, but it is gambling), the house also has the game rigged.

I don't think that's what they were talking about. And I don't even think it was Rashere. RNG also governs whether an NPC goes for cover or charges right at you. People have been misquoting this a lot.
Source if I'm wrong, wouldn't be the 1st time.

Olaf
11-05-2015, 05:24 PM
You guys do realize that the market value of many blue mods from bitstore only synergies is considerably higher than their vendor value right??

Not from the ingame vendor.

Dixie Cougar
11-05-2015, 05:27 PM
Not from the ingame vendor.

No, you're missing the point. Sell them to other players. People will buy junk. Vendoring is a last resort.

Olaf
11-05-2015, 05:29 PM
No, you're missing the point. Sell them to other players. People will buy junk. Vendoring is a last resort.

Hmm. Have about 20 sustained suppression t3 and t4s bmg mods. Haven't been able to get rid of em yet, but can't justify vendoring them for such little scrip.

Dixie Cougar
11-05-2015, 05:33 PM
Hmm. Have about 20 sustained suppression t3 and t4s bmg mods. Haven't been able to get rid of em yet, but can't justify vendoring them for such little scrip.

BMG mods? Can't help you there!

ST and CE seem to have been better gambles than Sustained Suppression, as far as I know.

Ryu Soba JP
11-05-2015, 05:35 PM
By the definition you have supplied above, Defiance doesn't qualify. I've bolded the relevant text. Think of it this way, there is a certain minimum baseline and possibly more that you are purchasing. If you don't like it, it isn't required.



To dig further into my previous point, the vast majority of stuff that comes out of a box is tradable. A few older costumes and cyber rigs are the only exceptions that come immediately to mind. So if you don't like the boxes, you can purchase the items you want from other players. It's an option we intentionally support to give folks an alternate way to acquire what they want.

I don't think costumes were ever tradable.
And many Jackpots were locked as non tradable.
So no, we can't trade for what we want.

Ryu Soba JP
11-05-2015, 05:39 PM
I'd say the bitstore is more a game of chance than gambling. In gambling, there is no guarantee that you will win something.

It's the same thing. Gambling is a game of chance. Bitstore purchases (supply Crates) are a game of chance.
Neither have a guarentee that you will get anything. (Well in the case of bitstore "anything good")

Lithova
11-05-2015, 06:01 PM
To dig further into my previous point, the vast majority of stuff that comes out of a box is tradable. A few older costumes and cyber rigs are the only exceptions that come immediately to mind. So if you don't like the boxes, you can purchase the items you want from other players. It's an option we intentionally support to give folks an alternate way to acquire what they want.

If this was actually true then why are we experiencing account bound items that are not tradeable like cyber rigs, cyber chips and previous jackpots from various events? Why can't we trade cars or outfits? I mean you've just stated that Trion supports an alternative way for players to acquire what they want by purchasing the items from other players.

Claydough
11-05-2015, 06:15 PM
I don't think costumes were ever tradable.
And many Jackpots were locked as non tradable.
So no, we can't trade for what we want.

Read his post again, he says costumes are non trade.

And trade locked jackpots were not tied to any form of bit store "gambling"

TheStigsCousin
11-05-2015, 06:30 PM
It's the same thing. Gambling is a game of chance. Bitstore purchases (supply Crates) are a game of chance.
Neither have a guarentee that you will get anything. (Well in the case of bitstore "anything good")

With gambling, you either win something or you lose what you put up (money for example) and walk away with nothing. A bitstore box, you always get something from it, so it's not a gamble. You are getting something for what you put up (money/bits). The chance part is for something you deem valuable or useful. Useful or not, you still get something from the box.

Claydough
11-05-2015, 06:40 PM
With gambling, you either win something or you lose what you put up (money for example) and walk away with nothing. A bitstore box, you always get something from it, so it's not a gamble. You are getting something for what you put up (money/bits). The chance part is for something you deem valuable or useful. Useful or not, you still get something from the box.

No...

You get nothing really.
Trion own everything you buy, you cant sell what you own and when the servers shut down next year you will have nothing...

Bentu
11-05-2015, 08:35 PM
I don't think costumes were ever tradable.
And many Jackpots were locked as non tradable.
So no, we can't trade for what we want.

Yeah costumes were never tradeable and recently jps from events were also made untradable.
Although I believe the named drops from hh are tradeable I don't know about the jp weapons.

pew pew pew
11-05-2015, 11:08 PM
Because it's a paid for item with real money?That's exactly the reasoning I've expected and already written down by me if you have read carefully :p

What does farming key codes have to do with anything...You miss the point. People who are farming in this game will invest a lot of time of their life. Time they could have used to work, to earn real money instead of playing the game. So your point that bitstore items "worth" more because of the usage of real money isn't a good one.

Bitstore items should be worth 10x the ingame vendor value of non bitstore acquired items.You haven't got the purpose of the bitstore. As said you pay for instant access, you pay for a higher drop chance*, you pay for exclusive synergies*.

* No, that doesn't mean drop chances needs to that high that you get an OJ every 2nd lockbox. I do like the low drop chance, otherwise it will lead into direction of p2w. In my opinion the game already went to far into this direction with the introduction of supreme quality. Easy notable who has spent money ;)

* If you have purchased lockboxes with standard synergies in the past then you have to blame yourself... no offense. Telling us that you vendor purple stuff shows some ignorance about the "value" of exclusive content. I would be happy to get my hands on even a green stock for detonators of the sustained suppression synergy.

_____
At the end it's pretty simple, virtual sh** is worthless. Humans always try to construe a reasoning behind their actions. If you acknowledge that you are wasting time/money for stuff which you can't even touch, smell or taste then you would recognize the stupidity behind your actions. Not meant offensive nor I'm talking to you exclusively, I'm talking in general.

Atticus Batman
11-06-2015, 12:17 AM
No...

You get nothing really.
Trion own everything you buy, you cant sell what you own and when the servers shut down next year you will have nothing...

See the problem with people complaining about spending money, so they don't realize that they are not buying anything with bits, as Trion owns it all. What you are really doing is paying a fee to rent the items for as long as the server is online, or your account exists, or both.

Or as Pew pew pew says:


At the end it's pretty simple, virtual sh** is worthless.

hempman
11-06-2015, 03:10 AM
You miss the point. People who are farming in this game will invest a lot of time of their life. Time they could have used to work, to earn real money instead of playing the game. So your point that bitstore items "worth" more because of the usage of real money isn't a good one.
I would be happy to get my hands on even a green stock for detonators of the sustained suppression synergy.

_____
At the end it's pretty simple, virtual sh** is worthless. Humans always try to construe a reasoning behind their actions. If you acknowledge that you are wasting time/money for stuff which you can't even touch, smell or taste then you would recognize the stupidity behind your actions. Not meant offensive nor I'm talking to you exclusively, I'm talking in general.

i kinda laughed,because lets face it,all of us are defiance addicts.
and,if you are on xbox360na,come see me i have your det mods.:D
we can work out how much for the virtual sh*t later ;)

to me,the whole thing balances on the actual value for your buck.
and the rng doesnt seem to be worth it at this time,at least for me.:(

PithHelmetIrath
11-06-2015, 06:14 AM
Adding a 'gambling awareness endorsement' is the least of this game's worries..

WhiteKnight019
11-06-2015, 07:51 AM
I would like to put out there the model of the simple gamble that every one sees in America everyday and don't even realize it. The Crane game. You put in a quarter or two and try to win a stuff animal. What most people don't realize is this is a form of legal gambling that isn't regulated. You get a small chance, and my small chance I mean about 1 in 1000 chance to win something. Why? because the person who owns the machine is allowed to time when pressure is applied to the claws and for how long. Some business's use candy crane games with an always win model, but others use the 1 in 1000 chance model. So you start with 1 or 2 quarters, and sometimes will spend up to $5 trying to get a stuff animal that probably cost $1. Its a gamble. Its legal and its not regulated.


Then you get micro transaction models for games. Most games have them now. Defiance, Call of Duty Advance Warfare, and now Halo 5. Why? because you get good stuff for the game that can or cannot be beneficial to your play style. These are all prizes, why because even if you may not use it someone else can. You may not want that blue assault rifle, but the guy next to you could use it, turn it purple and rock it. Plus, your paying extra money for property you do not own. You may own that video game your playing, but the actual in game property is not yours. You are buying a chance to play it. You're not gambling in a sense because you do not own the property. You are giving away your money to a company who will then use it to benefit them, not you. That's what I try and tell people who get upset that when a game makes new content its not catered to them to their play style. They make it for the benefit of all and may or may not be good for some.

Simple fact is if you don't like it, you do not have to buy into it. Its like the stock market, you may or may not get a return on your investment. You buy the chance to get better. In Defiance, that's what you are doing, buying the chance to get better in game. Its not gambling at all.

If anything, its digital addiction (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-08-digital-addiction-real-symptom-problems.html). That's the real culprit here. People who play candy crush (which is now owned by Blizzard Activision, those great people who brough us WoW) spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars just to advance a couple of levels. They are addicted to that technology. Girls who do selfies all the time not only have a vanity disorder but also are addicted to social media. If anything, its not digital gambling, its digital addiction.

Tanqueray
11-06-2015, 08:32 AM
I applaud the idea, providing help to ppl who struggle, however online gambling is a big grey area atm. The laws regarding gambling are not being updated to take into account online activities or virtual currencies. To ask a gaming company to attach this sort of help publicly is asking them to publicly state their product is equal to traditional gambling and can bring this issue into public awareness. The follow on from that is not something any game developer is likely to want to initiate, the immediate impact will be their legal expenses going up.

Im sure the day will come when there is no choice but to hash it all out, but for now if you want that kind of awareness to come about so ppl who need help know where help is available, then its on individuals for now to get it done.