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DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 08:48 AM
so on a other post i saw the team is always talking about new and better rngs. any news on this front? because the current rng is bad . this event on my high ego toon 0 ojs from the event. only my weekly box. and i used my low toons and got ojs from the event. have yall tested the rng with numbers close to the real population sizes? instead of really really high unreal numbers? this forum only accounts for a really small fraction of the players base. the numbers of people in game saying the rng is broke . is alot higher than yall think. when you get 2 of the same type , rarity ,and nano weapons in a box its not random. this has happen to me and others hundreds of times. and still ongoing

Mister Ree
11-18-2015, 09:52 AM
We'll get new rng when we get outfits we won from bitboxes granted to all toons, and all the other promises that are a year or longer old, like the social bug fix etc etc.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 09:55 AM
unless we get more people from in game on forums . to keep reporting old and new bugs things will never be fixed

David Irwin
11-18-2015, 10:26 AM
I'm not quite sure how to quantify it but somehow I have had the suspicion for a long time that rng is some how influenced by how you play or the weapons you choose to use, because players will each have their own unique consistencies to rng. some examples: Some people never get OJ grenades, other brag about getting them all the time. I almost never use elec nano, cause I don't really like it to much, you know what I also pretty much never pull that nano, only ever pulled 2 or 3 oj's with elec in all my time playing ( more than a year) , also I love AR's almost always use a load with an AR and something else. last event I pulled almost all the mods I pulled were for automatics. I never use infectors or smgs, and you know what I pretty much never get them either. Some people pull jackpots like crazy, I almost never pull named weapons , i'll get weapons with great rolls, but I've only ever pulled a couple named or jackpots. others who have loads of jp's collected will seem to have an easier time getting more.

BoTheFallen
11-18-2015, 11:19 AM
I'm not quite sure how to quantify it but somehow I have had the suspicion for a long time that rng is some how influenced by how you play or the weapons you choose to use, because players will each have their own unique consistencies to rng. some examples: Some people never get OJ grenades, other brag about getting them all the time. I almost never use elec nano, cause I don't really like it to much, you know what I also pretty much never pull that nano, only ever pulled 2 or 3 oj's with elec in all my time playing ( more than a year) , also I love AR's almost always use a load with an AR and something else. last event I pulled almost all the mods I pulled were for automatics. I never use infectors or smgs, and you know what I pretty much never get them either. Some people pull jackpots like crazy, I almost never pull named weapons , i'll get weapons with great rolls, but I've only ever pulled a couple named or jackpots. others who have loads of jp's collected will seem to have an easier time getting more.
Don't know about this. I use smgs almost exclusively, but I never get them. Instead I get snipers and shottys, which I never use.

Altras
11-18-2015, 11:39 AM
I know rng on my vet toon compared to a newer one is ridiculously different

David Irwin
11-18-2015, 12:10 PM
Don't know about this. I use smgs almost exclusively, but I never get them. Instead I get snipers and shottys, which I never use.

like I said before I'm not sure how to quantify it exactly, but each player does seem to have there own version of rng, that I think must be a reflection of how you play in some way.

Ocho
11-18-2015, 12:13 PM
so on a other post i saw the team is always talking about new and better rngs. any news on this front? because the current rng is bad . this event on my high ego toon 0 ojs from the event. only my weekly box. and i used my low toons and got ojs from the event. have yall tested the rng with numbers close to the real population sizes? instead of really really high unreal numbers? this forum only accounts for a really small fraction of the players base. the numbers of people in game saying the rng is broke . is alot higher than yall think. when you get 2 of the same type , rarity ,and nano weapons in a box its not random. this has happen to me and others hundreds of times. and still ongoing

The RNG is good, but it is very very random. That means you can see weird streaks as an individual and think there is a problem. That's just the nature of the beast. There is no bug here.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 12:41 PM
The RNG is good, but it is very very random. That means you can see weird streaks as an individual and think there is a problem. That's just the nature of the beast. There is no bug here.
a weird streak like not pulling a jp box with 64 keys in 2 years . and its individuals that this is happening too.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 12:51 PM
a weird streak like not pulling a jp box with 64 keys in 2 years . and its individuals that this is happening too.

or not being able to role the rolls we want .sinking thousands in forge . ever since rerolling started. sorry but the rng is busted if you took a in game poll . the players would say the rng is broken

Mister Ree
11-18-2015, 01:03 PM
The RNG is good, but it is very very random. That means you can see weird streaks as an individual and think there is a problem. That's just the nature of the beast. There is no bug here.

I know you probably have a lot new to learn about this game, and are busy doing so on and off the forums but your predecessor was the go between for the community and the devs, helping bring light to issues in the game and where the rng has always been broken certain things being reported here about limited time event bugs are being overlooked and they need to sorted asap. Like, for example the fact they are dropping non event items continuously. So while I understand you're new and things are crazy can you look into this and any other limited time event issues please. Thanks

Lithova
11-18-2015, 01:09 PM
The RNG in this game has always been bad, its not a secret, it really needs an overhaul and should be based on players max damage total. If you shoot one thing or empty one clip your total max damage would be less than the guy who emptied his entire magazine and used an ammo spike to reload his magazine then shot 20 more enemies using 94587459438 more bullets than you. Then that guy should be able to get better rewards.

Sadly we've all witness you can go to any event, fire one round at a target get a couple thousand points then sit back doing nothing to contribute and you'll still get the same or better rewards as those players who put in the effort and time to actually participate in the event.

The worst part about this craptastic RNG system is that the dev's think its fine and needs no overhauls or change. This is proved by Ocho's earlier post


The RNG is good, but it is very very random. That means you can see weird streaks as an individual and think there is a problem. That's just the nature of the beast. There is no bug here.

If that post is any indication of what we can expect, then folks its fairly obvious that the RNG system will not be changed.

Sliverbaer
11-18-2015, 01:13 PM
Sadly, I have found that my RNG is better if I don't log in and I play something else.

hempman
11-18-2015, 01:15 PM
as i walk up to the weekly rewards crate and predict a shotty reward and then pull a .....Shotty.
for the billionth time.
yep,no bug here.

cmon,we arent stupid,the whole zone todasy sat and talked about the rng and what we Specifically get and guess what?
its

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 01:16 PM
denial is not just a river in Egypt yall know

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 01:20 PM
The RNG in this game has always been bad, its not a secret, it really needs an overhaul and should be based on players max damage total. If you shoot one thing or empty one clip your total max damage would be less than the guy who emptied his entire magazine and used an ammo spike to reload his magazine then shot 20 more enemies using 94587459438 more bullets than you. Then that guy should be able to get better rewards.

Sadly we've all witness you can go to any event, fire one round at a target get a couple thousand points then sit back doing nothing to contribute and you'll still get the same or better rewards as those players who put in the effort and time to actually participate in the event.

The worst part about this craptastic RNG system is that the dev's think its fine and needs no overhauls or change. This is proved by Ocho's earlier post



If that post is any indication of what we can expect, then folks its fairly obvious that the RNG system will not be changed.

but the devs said the talk about new rngs ideas daily. if the rng is so a okay . why talk about new rngs at all? sounds fishy to me

Slothrop
11-18-2015, 01:27 PM
The RNG is good...There is no bug here.
...these are not the droids you are looking for...

PithHelmetIrath
11-18-2015, 01:29 PM
Sadly, I have found that my RNG is better if I don't log in and I play something else.

Sneaky, sneaky.. I was going to say this. lol

PTR47
11-18-2015, 01:33 PM
The RNG in this game has always been bad, its not a secret, it really needs an overhaul and should be based on players max damage total. If you shoot one thing or empty one clip your total max damage would be less than the guy who emptied his entire magazine and used an ammo spike to reload his magazine then shot 20 more enemies using 94587459438 more bullets than you. Then that guy should be able to get better rewards.

No.

You were not around for "kill stealing" and while I have issues with RNG also, the above is not part of the issue. For resource limited events (points, enemies), I like the game strategy of only requiring minimum score for the end chest. Those people getting more score get additional resources and drops (XP, scrip, keys, AF). Fine. With unlimited resources (points, enemies), it's fine to reward additionally for higher score. As per incursions and seiges, this happens. It's fine. It's a good, balanced strategy in general and I find it better than the "kill steal" whining we had once upon a time.

Jaydogg
11-18-2015, 01:38 PM
It's no coincidence that low ego toons get more Oj/jp drops. By doing this the player is enticed to buy arkforge from the bitstore to maintain that weapon as he/she egos up. The house always wins smh

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 01:40 PM
It's no coincidence that low ego toons get more Oj/jp drops. By doing this the player is enticed to buy arkforge from the bitstore to maintain that weapon as he/she egos up. The house always wins smh

that makes cents

pew pew pew
11-18-2015, 01:49 PM
LOL, rng... people are always mocking about the rng in every game. Humans always try to explain things, it's not your fault, it's human nature that your brain tries to construe things :)

Lycan Nightshade
11-18-2015, 01:55 PM
I really have to question if the devs actually play the game or not... cuz anyone who actually PLAYS the game can tell the rng is busted....

A_D3MON
11-18-2015, 02:02 PM
no true rng sadly enough... in ANY game... but the rng n this game is definitely broken and weighted and should be fixed... i mean come on getting a jackpot weapon for only scoring about 7k points? its ridiculous...

and pew pew pew i can agree that most people try to make connections where there are none but in this game the connections are very real...

I mean if u don't have oj grenades then odds are u aren't going to get oj grenades for a LONG time unless u have the scrip... if u have oj grenades then ur going 2 b getting oj grenades a lot more often....

its like its weighted 2 give ojs based on wat u have

snoglobe81
11-18-2015, 02:09 PM
As terrible as it is my clan and I have taken up a game of calling out what you get in the end. I said a nano-less t3 saw. That's what I got. Sometimes you have to find the humor in bad situations.

Lithova
11-18-2015, 02:10 PM
No.

You were not around for "kill stealing" and while I have issues with RNG also, the above is not part of the issue. For resource limited events (points, enemies), I like the game strategy of only requiring minimum score for the end chest. Those people getting more score get additional resources and drops (XP, scrip, keys, AF). Fine. With unlimited resources (points, enemies), it's fine to reward additionally for higher score. As per incursions and seiges, this happens. It's fine. It's a good, balanced strategy in general and I find it better than the "kill steal" whining we had once upon a time.

No.

This is what lead to the score boosting threads and kill stealing complaints. This game should be based on damage total for rewards. Not kills total (which is what your referring to). If we went back to what you're referring to we would see score boosting (which is what we still see cause sadly people still think score means something in this game)...those guys running around with the bmg's and mass cannons, they're spamming for points but not doing much for damage total (per target).

edited to add - Either way the RNG system is terrible and the dev's think its fine.

Oh also with regards to your statement of minimum score for the end chest, I'm not opposed to that but players who contributed more in effort/dmg total per target shouldn't be int he same reward pool as someone who just barely made the minimum.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 02:16 PM
This is all pussfooting around the real problem:

The RNG is probably working as intended, but the game's rewards system is WAY too dependent on it. So much so that it is depriving players of a sense of progression.

Lithova
11-18-2015, 02:22 PM
This is all pussfooting around the real problem:

The RNG is probably working as intended, but the game's rewards system is WAY too dependent on it. So much so that it is depriving players of a sense of progression.

Progression? Or do you mean Achievement or accomplishment?

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 02:25 PM
Progression? Or do you mean Achievement or accomplishment?

All of the above.

PTR47
11-18-2015, 02:29 PM
No.

This is what lead to the score boosting threads and kill stealing complaints. This game should be based on damage total for rewards. Not kills total (which is what your referring to). If we went back to what you're referring to we would see score boosting (which is what we still see cause sadly people still think score means something in this game)...those guys running around with the bmg's and mass cannons, they're spamming for points but not doing much for damage total (per target).

edited to add - Either way the RNG system is terrible and the dev's think its fine.

The Mass Cannon is pretty terrible for points actually. I've been running around with it for a bit, and I'd do way better without it. But it's kinda nice to clear out a big pack at the same time, but ya, the arkfalls are fast enough as it is. I'll swap it out.

I'm fine with damage for score. I'm not fine with linking score with drops in a score-limited environment. To be clear: I'd still be at the top and getting the better rewards if this came to pass, I just think there'd be a LOT more whining than there is currently. Because you'd see the rise again of the boomers and "whoever gets to it first", new players be damned.

And ya, I've complained about the RNG before and even sent a message to Mrs. Kiwi one frustrated evening. It took me over two years to get 7 OJ grenades, and I bought 2 or 3 of them.

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 02:31 PM
The RNG is good, but it is very very random. That means you can see weird streaks as an individual and think there is a problem. That's just the nature of the beast. There is no bug here.
Then how come i've never gotten a JP but the Omec, never get a JP from ANY event even if i'm on 12+ hours a day every day which i get nothing but blues and the extremely rare t4 mod/OJ?

I spend so much time on events & get nothing but blues, noob gear, & elites barely give me anything, i have to buy EVERYTHING from players because the game refuses to give me anything. It's very frustrating.

If it helps i'm f2p since i couldn't get the full game.
The rng is NOT fine.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 02:35 PM
The Mass Cannon is pretty terrible for points actually. I've been running around with it for a bit, and I'd do way better without it. But it's kinda nice to clear out a big pack at the same time, but ya, the arkfalls are fast enough as it is. I'll swap it out.

I'm fine with damage for score. I'm not fine with linking score with drops in a score-limited environment. To be clear: I'd still be at the top and getting the better rewards if this came to pass, I just think there'd be a LOT more whining than there is currently. Because you'd see the rise again of the boomers and "whoever gets to it first", new players be damned.

And ya, I've complained about the RNG before and even sent a message to Mrs. Kiwi one frustrated evening. It took me over two years to get 7 OJ grenades, and I bought 2 or 3 of them.

i bought all of mine , friends gave me 2 i needed . i still never pulled a oj nade

Fasthideous
11-18-2015, 02:44 PM
I pulled OJ nades yesterday, first time in 2 years of playing.

Fasthideous
11-18-2015, 02:46 PM
If i was able to play my main toon (freezes my console when im loading in) I could tell you what i would be getting from every NFH Major.... double blue :/ Good news though for anyone effected by what ever bug is actually causing characters to hard freeze up your game / console, a fix is from what I was told in place today!

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 02:47 PM
Then how come i've never gotten a JP but the Omec, never get a JP from ANY event even if i'm on 12+ hours a day every day which i get nothing but blues and the extremely rare t4 mod/OJ?

I spend so much time on events & get nothing but blues, noob gear, & elites barely give me anything, i have to buy EVERYTHING from players because the game refuses to give me anything. It's very frustrating.

If it helps i'm f2p since i couldn't get the full game.
The rng is NOT fine.
So, with this, please fix the broken RnG, it is very terrible for most players.

Kuroro
11-18-2015, 03:13 PM
I'm not quite sure how to quantify it but somehow I have had the suspicion for a long time that rng is some how influenced by how you play or the weapons you choose to use, because players will each have their own unique consistencies to rng. some examples: Some people never get OJ grenades, other brag about getting them all the time. I almost never use elec nano, cause I don't really like it to much, you know what I also pretty much never pull that nano, only ever pulled 2 or 3 oj's with elec in all my time playing ( more than a year) , also I love AR's almost always use a load with an AR and something else. last event I pulled almost all the mods I pulled were for automatics. I never use infectors or smgs, and you know what I pretty much never get them either. Some people pull jackpots like crazy, I almost never pull named weapons , i'll get weapons with great rolls, but I've only ever pulled a couple named or jackpots. others who have loads of jp's collected will seem to have an easier time getting more.

well i think you are right but it is more difficult to explain.rng is not "rng" in games,it does not exists,"random" is calculated by numbers on games,so its not random at all.imagine a list with squares,something like made with excel,the things you do before of ending the arkfall affect your position in that list.that is how "rng" works on games,we cant prove it because there is not save state to load and end the arkfall in a different way once and once again,but that is how it rng works,and as i said,"random" is inexistent in games.but we cant know how it works so it will keep being "random" for us.we should have a copy of the game where we could quick save and quick load to try different ways until we get near of the jackpots in the "list",the list that changes on every major arkfall,to see how the "rng" works

i have been having fun with the rng of yugioh forbidden memories,portable,quick save and quick load until i got the best cards

Smokey Black
11-18-2015, 03:19 PM
Eh I've never got a lockbox jackpot. Picked up 4 from event arkfalls but was grinding hard for those. Everything else was bought/traded for or given to me as gifts from clanmates.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 03:51 PM
This is all pussfooting around the real problem:

The RNG is probably working as intended, but the game's rewards system is WAY too dependent on it. So much so that it is depriving players of a sense of progression.

This. Thanks Dixie.

I believe we've touched on this before, but it's worth talking about again. RNG = random number generator. That's all it does. It generates a random number between the values fed into it. It's actually random, which doesn't mean 'an even distribution' or 'guarantees a result x% of the time'. Every time you ask it for a value, you're getting a random number. By its very nature, randomness has streaks. It's particularly noticeable over the short term or when you're looking for a specific result among many (like a jackpot item). I've personally run many, many tests on our RNG with sample sets in the 100s of thousands and it's working as expected.

Saying the RNG is 'broken' is both wrong and not useful. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do: generating random numbers. The complaint, at its core, is a lot more complex than that but boils down to 'I'm not getting the results I want'. I'll get to that in a minute.

First, though, let's shotgun some things that RNG is not to hopefully make these discussions a bit more useful.


Your character does not have an RNG. The RNG is a global function, not something assigned to you or your character. Everyone is connected through the RNG. Kumbaya.
EGO does not matter to the RNG. All it does is take a couple values and return something in between. The RNG is perfectly neutral. It does not see EGO. EGO can come into play for particular results, like how expeditions only drop particular rarities once you get above a particular expedition tier (EGO), but that isn't related to the RNG itself.
The RNG does not hate you and/or love someone else. Despite what it may seem, the RNG is a computer algorithm and incapable of feelings...for now.


Now, the root of the issue: why aren't you getting the results you want despite lots of tries?

It's about the sample set and results weightings. To use loot as an example, let's say a really simple loot table has one weapon each of rare, epic, and legendary tiers. The higher the tier of an item, the more rare it is, so a loot table may look something like this:


50% - Rare
40% - Epic
10% - Legendary


So, right off the bat, there's a 1 in 10 chance of getting a legendary item every time you try. That does NOT mean that you are guaranteed one if you try 10 times. Each result is independent, like flipping a coin. Just because your quarter came up heads the last time doesn't mean it will come up tails the next. Statistically, over a large enough sample size, the average number of tries it takes to get a legendary is actually closer to 7 (ie. 50% of the time, it takes 7 or less tries to get a legendary). By 10 tries, that chance is up to around 65%. 20 tries is about 88%. It never reaches 100%.

Nearly every time we've gone and looked into someone's complaints about going through 'so many tries' and not getting the results they want, they haven't even come close to the number that would be the average to get that result let alone anywhere near the 90% mark. Opening up 7 boxes and not getting a jackpot item doesn't mean the RNG is broken. Jackpots are rare. That's why they're called jackpots.

Now, this is where things start to get more interesting. Actual loot tables obviously have a lot more things in them than 3. As an example case, a 'real' loot table may sub-divide the 10% for legendary into 10 different items, each at a 1% chance.

As you play the game, your gear gets better and the pool of items that would be an upgrade for you gets smaller. Let's say we use that 10% chance to get a legendary on a particular event. When you're first starting, any legendary is great and you get one pretty quickly. Once you get your first one, though, only some portion of the remaining items will be an upgrade. For simplicity, let's say that's 50%. So, in the same event, after you've gotten your first legendary drop, there's now only a 5% chance of getting something that's an upgrade. Get another one? Half chance again. Now its 2.5% (technically 2 or 3% since you can't have half a weapon). Continue that equation until there's literally only a single item that is an upgrade and your chance to get one per event is going to be really small. In our example, that 1 item in 10 legendaries would be a 1% drop chance. Math says the average number of tries (the 50% mark) to get that 1 item would be about 69. You could get it the next time. It could take you 300 tries. But average is about 69.

Apply that same concept to jackpot items, where the chance to get one at all is lower than getting a legendary. If there are 7 jackpots in an event, like Halloween, the chance to get any particular one each time you try is very small.

Same concept applies elsewhere. If you're re-rolling a bonus roll and there's 10 possibilities (for reference, bonus rolls all have the same chance to come up) but only 1 you want, its going to take you an average of 7 tries to get one...but it could take a lot less or a lot more.

From the standpoint of rarity distribution, being RNG based works fine. What it can't do, though, is reward persistence or skill. There are other ways to do that, but they have their own problems so aren't something to just replace RNG based loot with.

Silicon shards are an example. Rigs and chips are randomly dropped like other items, but you can convert them into silicon shards which can then be used to purchase the exact item you want. The difficulty with this is that it's imminently grindable. There's no question of skill or challenge. You could take an EGO 100 player and grind the same expedition non-stop to get the exact same rewards as an EGO 6000 player taking on top tier difficulty. The EGO 6000 player may be able to get them quicker, but there's nothing exclusive. That's part of why the absolute best items in the game aren't available via this method. You can't purchase legendary tier rigs/chips with silicon shards. Legendary chips and rigs remain only available as drops from the difficult, top tier bosses. That does mean they're subject to the whims of randomness, though.

The other problem is that currency systems like that still grow stale over time. You'll still eventually get everything you could want out of them and then the currency becomes largely valueless.

There are a bunch of other methods, particularly for loot distribution, that can be used but nothing Defiance can do currently. Some of them are things we've discussed internally and may end up doing, though its not an insignificant effort to implement.

The other part is just trying to constantly add new stuff to get. Like writing a book, though, the avid players will always consume content faster than we can make it.

Claydough
11-18-2015, 04:00 PM
This. Thanks Dixie.

I believe we've touched on this before, but it's worth talking about again. RNG = random number generator. That's all it does. It generates a random number between the values fed into it. It's actually random, which doesn't mean 'an even distribution' or 'guarantees a result x% of the time'. Every time you ask it for a value, you're getting a random number. By its very nature, randomness has streaks. It's particularly noticeable over the short term or when you're looking for a specific result among many (like a jackpot item). I've personally run many, many tests on our RNG with sample sets in the 100s of thousands and it's working as expected.

Saying the RNG is 'broken' is both wrong and not useful. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do: generating random numbers. The complaint, at its core, is a lot more complex than that but boils down to 'I'm not getting the results I want'. I'll get to that in a minute.

First, though, let's shotgun some things that RNG is not to hopefully make these discussions a bit more useful.


Your character does not have an RNG. The RNG is a global function, not something assigned to you or your character. Everyone is connected through the RNG. Kumbaya.
EGO does not matter to the RNG. All it does is take a couple values and return something in between. The RNG is perfectly neutral. It does not see EGO. EGO can come into play for particular results, like how expeditions only drop particular rarities once you get above a particular expedition tier (EGO), but that isn't related to the RNG itself.
The RNG does not hate you and/or love someone else. Despite what it may seem, the RNG is a computer algorithm and incapable of feelings...for now.


Now, the root of the issue: why aren't you getting the results you want despite lots of tries?

It's about the sample set and results weightings. To use loot as an example, let's say a really simple loot table has one weapon each of rare, epic, and legendary tiers. The higher the tier of an item, the more rare it is, so a loot table may look something like this:


50% - Rare
40% - Epic
10% - Legendary


So, right off the bat, there's a 1 in 10 chance of getting a legendary item every time you try. That does NOT mean that you are guaranteed one if you try 10 times. Each result is independent, like flipping a coin. Just because your quarter came up heads the last time doesn't mean it will come up tails the next. Statistically, over a large enough sample size, the average number of tries it takes to get a legendary is actually closer to 7 (ie. 50% of the time, it takes 7 or less tries to get a legendary). By 10 tries, that chance is up to around 65%. 20 tries is about 88%. It never reaches 100%.

Nearly every time we've gone and looked into someone's complaints about going through 'so many tries' and not getting the results they want, they haven't even come close to the number that would be the average to get that result let alone anywhere near the 90% mark. Opening up 7 boxes and not getting a jackpot item doesn't mean the RNG is broken. Jackpots are rare. That's why they're called jackpots.

Now, this is where things start to get more interesting. Actual loot tables obviously have a lot more things in them than 3. As an example case, a 'real' loot table may sub-divide the 10% for legendary into 10 different items, each at a 1% chance.

As you play the game, your gear gets better and the pool of items that would be an upgrade for you gets smaller. Let's say we use that 10% chance to get a legendary on a particular event. When you're first starting, any legendary is great and you get one pretty quickly. Once you get your first one, though, only some portion of the remaining items will be an upgrade. For simplicity, let's say that's 50%. So, in the same event, after you've gotten your first legendary drop, there's now only a 5% chance of getting something that's an upgrade. Get another one? Half chance again. Now its 2.5% (technically 2 or 3% since you can't have half a weapon). Continue that equation until there's literally only a single item that is an upgrade and your chance to get one per event is going to be really small. In our example, that 1 item in 10 legendaries would be a 1% drop chance. Math says the average number of tries (the 50% mark) to get that 1 item would be about 69. You could get it the next time. It could take you 300 tries. But average is about 69.

Apply that same concept to jackpot items, where the chance to get one at all is lower than getting a legendary. If there are 7 jackpots in an event, like Halloween, the chance to get any particular one each time you try is very small.

Same concept applies elsewhere. If you're re-rolling a bonus roll and there's 10 possibilities (for reference, bonus rolls all have the same chance to come up) but only 1 you want, its going to take you an average of 7 tries to get one...but it could take a lot less or a lot more.

From the standpoint of rarity distribution, being RNG based works fine. What it can't do, though, is reward persistence or skill. There are other ways to do that, but they have their own problems so aren't something to just replace RNG based loot with.

Silicon shards are an example. Rigs and chips are randomly dropped like other items, but you can convert them into silicon shards which can then be used to purchase the exact item you want. The difficulty with this is that it's imminently grindable. There's no question of skill or challenge. You could take an EGO 100 player and grind the same expedition non-stop to get the exact same rewards as an EGO 6000 player taking on top tier difficulty. The EGO 6000 player may be able to get them quicker, but there's nothing exclusive. That's part of why the absolute best items in the game aren't available via this method. You can't purchase legendary tier rigs/chips with silicon shards. Legendary chips and rigs remain only available as drops from the difficult, top tier bosses. That does mean they're subject to the whims of randomness, though.

There are a bunch of other methods, particularly for loot distribution, that can be used but nothing Defiance can do currently. Some of them are things we've discussed internally and may end up doing, though its not an insignificant effort to implement.

The other problem is that currency systems like that still grow stale over time. You'll still eventually get everything you could want out of them and then the currency becomes largely valueless.

The other part is just trying to constantly add new stuff to get. Like writing a book, though, the avid players will always consume content faster than we can make it.


Please run these tests on you cyber rig bit store boxes.

Because that is a case where your rng is actually broken.
$100 bought me like 30 blue prime rigs in a row. (That was every drop)

Olaf
11-18-2015, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the explanation Rashere. So what's going to be done so us players aren't continually bashing our head against a wall? I realise rng is random, but doing 20 expedition rounds in 1 session and not even getting a single oj is fair/rewarding? Doing 2000 major Arkfalls during a 3week event time span and not getting a single jackpot, even a rubbish one, thats rewarding and will keep us players playing?
At the end of the day, if the players are continuously getting shafted by the loot system, there won't be any players left to keep getting shafted.

Anyway, I like you Rashere, your the one dev who will give us factual/informative answers, so keep up with what your doing. Thanks.

Smokey Black
11-18-2015, 04:06 PM
Please run these tests on you cyber rig bit store boxes.

Because that is a case where your rng is actually broken.
$100 bought me like 30 blue prime rigs in a row. (That was every drop)

Don't believe a word you type. Stop trolling the devs.

Thanks for the transparency Rashere.

Olaf
11-18-2015, 04:08 PM
Don't believe a word you type. Stop trolling the devs.

Thanks for the transparency Rashere.

He posted a screenshot not long ago....

Sera Phenot
11-18-2015, 04:08 PM
Please run these tests on you cyber rig bit store boxes.

Because that is a case where your rng is actually broken.
$100 bought me like 30 blue prime rigs in a row. (That was every drop)

Randomness inherently includes streaks, sometimes of shocking length, because it is random. Only at huge aggregates does it actually appear random.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 04:16 PM
Randomness inherently includes streaks, sometimes of shocking length, because it is random. Only at huge aggregates does it actually appear random.

Yep, especially when the set of results is small, as in the case of rigs. There's only 3 types of rigs and rares are the most common result. Getting a run of a single type is unusual, but not impossible. I'd bet the rigs had different innate abilities, though, so are actually different rigs just all of the high level type 'rare prime'. If that's not true and they were all exactly the same rig, shoot me a PM with the details.

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 04:29 PM
RNG = random number generator. That's all it does. It generates a random number between the values fed into it. It's actually random, which doesn't mean 'an even distribution' or 'guarantees a result x% of the time'. Every time you ask it for a value, you're getting a random number. By its very nature, randomness has streaks. It's particularly noticeable over the short term or when you're looking for a specific result among many (like a jackpot item). I've personally run many, many tests on our RNG with sample sets in the 100s of thousands and it's working as expected.

Saying the RNG is 'broken' is both wrong and not useful. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do: generating random numbers. The complaint, at its core, is a lot more complex than that but boils down to 'I'm not getting the results I want'.
No, i'm not getting any results, that's the problem.
Lower the chance of getting lower tier gear, please, that might fix it.

Lycan Nightshade
11-18-2015, 04:33 PM
Lol new content.... pfft..

Ea Rapture
11-18-2015, 04:49 PM
No, i'm not getting any results, that's the problem.
Lower the chance of getting lower tier gear, please, that might fix it.

Or just suck it up. Drops are random. Maybe you have bad luck. Did you walk under a ladder or break a mirror recently? Lol

SirServed
11-18-2015, 04:50 PM
a weird streak like not pulling a jp box with 64 keys in 2 years . and its individuals that this is happening too.
2 years eh? That's a pretty bold statement considering the Jackpot key boxes haven't even existed for 2 whole years (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?172192-Defiance-2.204-(hotfix)-Patch-Notes). Come back on August 20th 2016 and say it again, if you haven't got one yet and want to be right for a change.


The RNG does not hate you and/or love someone else. Despite what it may seem, the RNG is a computer algorithm and incapable of feelings...for now.
Hahaha this thread is full of win. I'm having more fun reading the forums than I do while in game.

Lithova
11-18-2015, 04:55 PM
So there you have it folks RNG is fine but not really. Currency gets stale over time, players will gain better items over time, Defiance can't do other loot distribution. New content is a constant work in progress. Avid players are at fault for wanting more then what the dev's can provide.

Skiller115
11-18-2015, 05:51 PM
Yes let the butthurt flow through this thread!

Bentu
11-18-2015, 06:04 PM
My ten pennith, just because the rng is running as intended doesn't mean it's being applied fairly.
As long as the lock boxes have fixed drop rates I'm sorry but I will not believe that the rng isn't fixed in some way or another.
To pull the same 2 weapons from a t4 lock box but maybe different rarity on multiple occasions tells me that something isn't right.
The same goes for adjusting the oj drop rate from the monolith.

It's not an rng if the drop rate can be adjusted.

PTR47
11-18-2015, 06:08 PM
It's not an rng if the drop rate can be adjusted.

Sure it can be. RNG and loot table against which it is applied can easily be different things. That would be a different line of inquiry, and a reasonable one to ask for double-checking. But let's not confuse the two, because the devs have tested the number generator.

Bentu
11-18-2015, 06:11 PM
Sure it can be. RNG and loot table against which it is applied can easily be different things. That would be a different line of inquiry, and a reasonable one to ask for double-checking. But let's not confuse the two, because the devs have tested the number generator.

Sorry I disagree and will do until the cows come home.

As long as you can manually adjust the rng it's not random end of story.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 06:13 PM
Sure it can be. RNG and loot table against which it is applied can easily be different things. That would be a different line of inquiry, and a reasonable one to ask for double-checking. But let's not confuse the two, because the devs have tested the number generator.

Very different things indeed and it helps to be clear.

I've dug into, found, and fixed problems with loot tables. Everything from items being on there multiple times to items not existing at all to an item's chance within a loot table being set incorrectly. There are thousands of loot tables in the game and being specific about where you're having issues helps track down where to look.

That said, when you're just looking at the weapon type and ignoring the rarity and stat changes, there really aren't that many different options in a lock box. Getting the same weapon type back to back isn't very far fetched.

Claydough
11-18-2015, 06:13 PM
Yep, especially when the set of results is small, as in the case of rigs. There's only 3 types of rigs and rares are the most common result. Getting a run of a single type is unusual, but not impossible. I'd bet the rigs had different innate abilities, though, so are actually different rigs just all of the high level type 'rare prime'. If that's not true and they were all exactly the same rig, shoot me a PM with the details.

I sent you a pm long ago, but it went un answered...

I get random, but at what point will it be worthy of looking into?

I guess i could spend another 10k bits just to prove a point...

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 06:16 PM
Or just suck it up. Drops are random. Maybe you have bad luck. Did you walk under a ladder or break a mirror recently? Lol
bro you just don't understand (.jpg)
every event it's always all 2x blues with 1 or t4 t4 mods, maybe 1 oj.
for over a year. nothing.
i cry on the inside at every event.


Yes let the butthurt flow through this thread!
no u
(10 character)

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 06:21 PM
Very different things indeed and it helps to be clear.

I've dug into, found, and fixed problems with loot tables. Everything from items being on there multiple times to items not existing at all to an item's chance within a loot table being set incorrectly. There are thousands of loot tables in the game and being specific about where you're having issues helps track down where to look.
Events, getting 97% blues, never a single JP per event since 2014. maybe 1 oj if i'm lucky & 2 t4 mods, most of the time. for the whole event.

Ea Rapture
11-18-2015, 06:24 PM
bro you just don't understand (.jpg)
every event it's always all 2x blues with 1 or t4 t4 mods, maybe 1 oj.
for over a year. nothing.
i cry on the inside at every event.


no u
(10 character)

Again, Its random. I get bad drops too, but at this point it's common, it lets me be happy when I do pull an oj.

Tanqueray
11-18-2015, 06:25 PM
Currency becomes stale because its grindable and youll end up getting what you want through a grinding method... so why have the currency? limiting the rarities than can be bought with silly shards just makes it go stale faster. You want to prevent low ego players buying elite gear, so tie a second currency, like cereluem cores, to the legendary gear in vendors, a currency that can be limited to high ego activities.

If the options are rewards based on skill or grinding or a lottery, and a skill system isnt doable, then id take grinding over a lottery based system any day.

Alternatively give us an in game auction house and make every item tradeable, rigs/chips included.

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 06:27 PM
Again, Its random. I get bad drops too, but at this point it's common, it lets me be happy when I do pull an oj.
But it's every event, i get nothing, save for 1 oj or t4 mod, per event i'm on every day for.
how is that fine?

Ea Rapture
11-18-2015, 06:32 PM
But it's every event, i get nothing, save for 1 oj or t4 mod, per event i'm on every day for.
how is that fine?

Because its a machine. It doesn't know more than the information its given

Bentu
11-18-2015, 06:33 PM
But it's every event, i get nothing, save for 1 oj or t4 mod, per event i'm on every day for.
how is that fine?

It's not fine, I got an oj from the last HH for simply travelling to friend and quickly throwing a bio nades.
Event ends and oj drops, other I've hit nearly every crystal and got a decent score and got nothing worthwhile.
Mind you the oj wasn't much good either.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 06:37 PM
But it's every event, i get nothing, save for 1 oj or t4 mod, per event i'm on every day for.
how is that fine?

In real numbers, how many events are we talking per day? Only count majors since minors don't drop legendary items. Mentioning the t4 mod is confusing, though, since those don't drop from events at all. Are you instead talking about lock boxes which have t4 mods?

Also, you don't get 'nothing'. You get other loot. That's a big difference. Literally getting nothing would be a bug. Not getting as many legendaries as you want is a complaint about drop chances.

Being specific helps track down where any actual problems might lie.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 06:38 PM
It's not fine, I got an oj from the last HH for simply travelling to friend and quickly throwing a bio nades.
Event ends and oj drops, other I've hit nearly every crystal and got a decent score and got nothing worthwhile.
Mind you the oj wasn't much good either.

I should have added this to the list, but it's been said many times: score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end. It only affects currency and XP gain. As long as you've participated in the event, you get the same chance at loot as anyone else.

Not an ideal system and one I'd love to change so there's at least a minimum level of participation required to get anything, but that's how it works.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 06:49 PM
Rigs/chips being tradable would be awesome. When things are RNG based and not tradable, burnout sets in fast. I pretty much do expeditions for sport these days. I don't even pick up most of the loot that drops.

A little bit of RNG may make things more interesting than a straight grind on its own, but too much as we see in DEFI results in loot rage. My rig needs 5 orange damage diffusors to complete. I have never seen a single one. My inventory is chock full of junk oj chips (vehicle wrecker anyone?). So, as far as finishing my rig, I've long since given up. The gameplay itself is strong enough to convert "loot rage" to "loot apathy" but it's not a healthy dynamic all around.

So, to return to the thread... ranting about the RNG being "broken" is counterproductive and ultimately a distraction. As I said earlier, the RNG is not broken, it's simply too important. There's no sense of working your way to a goal because there are two states when it comes to an item/roll/whatever you want: square zero (do not have) and "yes" (do have). This is most starkly exemplified by the supreme upgrade system, but it's found in many other parts of the game too. When the drop rates are low, plenty of people end up on the "wrong" side of the bell curve. All of this happens without the RNG being broken. Trading is our only saving grace, and in the case of chips/rigs we don't even have that. Rule of thumb: If it can only be obtained via RNG, it should also be tradable.

GW2 is an example of a reward system done very well (for the most part). A mix of rng, direct bit/game currency exchange, and crafting. That game is not a shooter so it doesn't compete directly with this one, but the ideas are relevant.

Unfortunately defi can't monetize like GW2, because consoles. Sigh.

There is a LOT I put up with in this game simply because I massively prefer shooters, and DEFI's implementation in particular, to even the best hotbar MMOs. And because a responsible CL has to care about certain things.

Come for the gameplay, stay for the people, do both despite the dodgy rewards/loot economy. Does that sum it up?

Again, the RNG doesn't have to be broken to be a source of a dissatisfying experience. That is the underlying issue that "rage rage no jps ffuuuuuu" people are missing. The solution is going to be more of a challenge than simply fixing a broken generator, whatever the technical challenges associated with such a thing might be. That's not what impatient people (and who among us isn't at least a little bit impatient) want to hear, but that's how it is.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 06:51 PM
I should have added this to the list, but it's been said many times: score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end. It only affects currency and XP gain. As long as you've participated in the event, you get the same chance at loot as anyone else.

Not an ideal system and one I'd love to change so there's at least a minimum level of participation required to get anything, but that's how it works.

Considering how bad scorewhoring already is at these events and how poorly score is correlated with actual performance, I regard the current system as the lesser evil.

But yes, it could be better in theory.

Thanks for wading into this thread and clearing some things up. I'm still concerned about the future but hopefully you've directed the conversation in a more productive direction.

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 06:54 PM
In real numbers, how many events are we talking per day? Only count majors since minors don't drop legendary items. Mentioning the t4 mod is confusing, though, since those don't drop from events at all. Are you instead talking about lock boxes which have t4 mods?

Also, you don't get 'nothing'. You get other loot. That's a big difference. Literally getting nothing would be a bug. Not getting as many legendaries as you want is a complaint about drop chances.

Being specific helps track down where any actual problems might lie.
Don't majors give t4 mods?
and nothing, as in t3 x2, all the time.
i usually am logged in and go into event majors all day.
I see people pull OJ's or JP's, while OJ's are very rare for me, i've never pulled a JP, except for the Omec shield.

events, like NFH.
but i get t4 guns max at regular arkfalls
i have only pulled one oj grenade, ever.

I've only pulled 1 OJ faction weapon, ever.
i stopped doing most contracts.

r1p
11-18-2015, 06:55 PM
In real numbers, how many events are we talking per day? Only count majors since minors don't drop legendary items. Mentioning the t4 mod is confusing, though, since those don't drop from events at all. Are you instead talking about lock boxes which have t4 mods?

Also, you don't get 'nothing'. You get other loot. That's a big difference. Literally getting nothing would be a bug. Not getting as many legendaries as you want is a complaint about drop chances.

Being specific helps track down where any actual problems might lie.

Specifics:


I have never received an OJ weapon from any Soleptor, Top Notch, or VBI lockboxes in over 14 months of playing the game.
98% of the epics that I get from the faction boxes are shotguns, sniper rifles, pistols, etc.
I almost always get a blue shield and and a blue/purple shotgun and blue/purple sniper rifle from Top Notch.
I can always tell when I'm going to have poor luck with RNG for a couple of weeks with T4 boxes when I start getting mostly shotguns and sniper rifles from them.

Claydough
11-18-2015, 06:58 PM
Considering how bad scorewhoring already is at these events and how poorly score is correlated with actual performance, I regard the current system as the lesser evil.

But yes, it could be better in theory.

Thanks for wading into this thread and clearing some things up. I'm still concerned about the future but hopefully you've directed the conversation in a more productive direction.

+1 for truth.

Bentu
11-18-2015, 07:00 PM
I should have added this to the list, but it's been said many times: score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end. It only affects currency and XP gain. As long as you've participated in the event, you get the same chance at loot as anyone else.

Not an ideal system and one I'd love to change so there's at least a minimum level of participation required to get anything, but that's how it works.

That's kind of what I'm alluding to, if these things can be adjusted to suit then there's no randomness about it.

Imo this rng generator should be across the board with no manipulation at all.

As long as it can be adjusted it's not random.

Yes you can set it up to work within certain parameters but by doing that it's not random.

Claydough
11-18-2015, 07:00 PM
Specifics:


I have never received an OJ weapon from any Soleptor, Top Notch, or VBI lockboxes in over 14 months of playing the game.
98% of the epics that I get from the faction boxes are shotguns, sniper rifles, pistols, etc.
I almost always get a blue shield and and a blue/purple shotgun and blue/purple sniper rifle from Top Notch.
I can always tell when I'm going to have poor luck with RNG for a couple of weeks with T4 boxes when I start getting mostly shotguns and sniper rifles from them.


There are not real numbers.

Pls show your data and how you came up with these numbers and %'s

Rashere
11-18-2015, 07:05 PM
Don't majors give t4 mods?
and nothing, as in t3 x2, all the time.
i usually am logged in and go into majors all day.
I see people pull OJ's or JP's, while OJ's are very rare for me, i've never pulled a JP, except for the Omec shield.

events, like NFH.
but i get t4 guns max at regular arkfalls
i have only pulled one oj grenade, ever.

T4 mods are only in boxes right now. T4 guns only come from major arkfalls in the events, not minors. OJ grenades are stupid rare. I should probably address that.

When we get to jackpots, we start to see some interesting psychological phenomenon come into play. Jackpots are truly rare (legendaries really aren't that rare...just feels that way since people are generally looking for a specific one). The odds of any particular person getting one during an event is small. But there are a lot of people in every event, meaning a lot of chances for someone to get one, and jackpots have a nifty message that fires off when someone gets one. That makes them very visible, despite being very rare.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 07:07 PM
Considering how bad scorewhoring already is at these events and how poorly score is correlated with actual performance, I regard the current system as the lesser evil.

But yes, it could be better in theory.

Thanks for wading into this thread and clearing some things up. I'm still concerned about the future but hopefully you've directed the conversation in a more productive direction.

Completely agree, Dixie. That's why I mention wanting a minimum threshold rather than something more extreme, like loot chance based on ranking. It's probably possible to rework the entire score system so its fairer overall, but its a massive effort and there will always be ways to game a system like that.

Better to just be socialist about the whole thing: as long as you put in some minimum level of effort, you get the same rewards as everyone else. Similar to what we have now, just adding that 'minimum level of effort' bit.

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 07:10 PM
T4 mods are only in boxes right now. T4 guns only come from major arkfalls in the events, not minors. OJ grenades are stupid rare. I should probably address that.

When we get to jackpots, we start to see some interesting psychological phenomenon come into play. Jackpots are truly rare (legendaries really aren't that rare...just feels that way since people are generally looking for a specific one). The odds of any particular person getting one during an event is small. But there are a lot of people in every event, meaning a lot of chances for someone to get one, and jackpots have a nifty message that fires off when someone gets one. That makes them very visible, despite being very rare.
Then why did i get a t4 relentless decimation mod from a major?
Anything about low OJ rate from the factional vendors? They are lower than elite loxboxes.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 07:14 PM
Completely agree, Dixie. That's why I mention wanting a minimum threshold rather than something more extreme, like loot chance based on ranking. It's probably possible to rework the entire score system so its fairer overall, but its a massive effort and there will always be ways to game a system like that.

Better to just be socialist about the whole thing: as long as you put in some minimum level of effort, you get the same rewards as everyone else. Similar to what we have now, just adding that 'minimum level of effort' bit.

That might make it a bit difficult for lower level characters to participate. These events are already almost always TL10 and having experimented a bit with alts I can tell you that what is Easy Street on my main is a hard slog on an EGO 300 cannon fodder toon.

I think some kind of system that would allow anyone who puts in a reasonable amount of effort over the course of the event to walk away with a single untradable JP of their choice would significantly increase player satisfaction (and indirectly, retention) without blowing a hole in bit box sales.

For instance, taking the HH pursuits as an example, killing 666 hulkers nets you a reward crate that gives you a menu to pick one item from. Because it's not RNG based, having the weapon be untradable is a reasonable solution to prevent rampant altfarming. If people choose poorly, that's on them.

Having read the developer interview on UI development and such I know this is not a trivial undertaking, but I think it would produce positive results.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 07:16 PM
i have never pulled a t4 tn boomer or oj one from the topnotch crate . i gave up buying fraction boxes

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 07:18 PM
That might make it a bit difficult for lower level characters to participate. These events are already almost always TL10 and having experimented a bit with alts I can tell you that what is Easy Street on my main is a hard slog on an EGO 300 cannon fodder toon.

I think some kind of token system that would allow anyone who puts in a reasonable amount of effort over the course of the event to walk away with a single untradable JP of their choice would significantly increase player satisfaction (and indirectly, retention) without blowing a hole in bit box sales.
Is it bad i stopped playing during the 6th or 10th day of HH? i just got tired of the endless t3 stuff.


Deathbringer...i finally pulled a t4 tn bb, want it? lol.

r1p
11-18-2015, 07:18 PM
There are not real numbers.

Pls show your data and how you came up with these numbers and %'s

I'm sorry, did someone put you in charge? What would you do with it even if I did post "real numbers"? You don't have access to the Defiance's log tables so you can't confirm any of it even if I did provide it. However it would be real easy for someone at Trion to query the logs and verify what I posted.

However, since you are interested "real numbers" here's an easy one: 0%. I have NEVER received an OJ weapon from a faction lockbox. That one is really easy to keep track of because 0 divided by any number of boxes is still 0%.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 07:22 PM
Then why did i get a t4 relentless decimation mod from a major?
Anything about low OJ rate from the factional vendors? They are lower than elite loxboxes.

Faction vendor boxes usually only contain 3 items, one of which is always a shield.

Getting rid of the shield, or reducing its incidence, would help significantly. Shields can be given their own lockbox somewhere else.

Rashere
11-18-2015, 07:24 PM
Then why did i get a t4 relentless decimation mod from a major?
Anything about low OJ rate from the factional vendors? They are lower than elite loxboxes.

Great question. Just double checked the loot tables and the majors drop 2 items: 1 weapon (up to legendary) and 1 mod (rare or epic).

Which vendor and what are you buying from them? Every one is different so specific examples help track it down.

Olaf
11-18-2015, 07:25 PM
That might make it a bit difficult for lower level characters to participate. These events are already almost always TL10 and having experimented a bit with alts I can tell you that what is Easy Street on my main is a hard slog on an EGO 300 cannon fodder toon.

I think some kind of system that would allow anyone who puts in a reasonable amount of effort over the course of the event to walk away with a single untradable JP of their choice would significantly increase player satisfaction (and indirectly, retention) without blowing a hole in bit box sales.

For instance, taking the HH pursuits as an example, killing 666 hulkers nets you a reward crate that gives you a menu to pick one item from. Because it's not RNG based, having the weapon be untradable is a reasonable solution to prevent rampant altfarming. If people choose poorly, that's on them.

Having read the developer interview on UI development and such I know this is not a trivial undertaking, but I think it would produce positive results.

This token system is EXACTLY what these events need. 1 untradeable jackpot of your choice for putting in a stupid amount of work, so even if you do get bent over by the loot system, you know your work won't have been for nothing at the end of the event.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 07:34 PM
It's not fine, I got an oj from the last HH for simply travelling to friend and quickly throwing a bio nades.
Event ends and oj drops, other I've hit nearly every crystal and got a decent score and got nothing worthwhile.
Mind you the oj wasn't much good either.

i have been at many many arkfalls when this happens its sad. one shot 1 kill oj named

Claydough
11-18-2015, 07:38 PM
I'm sorry, did someone put you in charge? What would you do with it even if I did post "real numbers"? You don't have access to the Defiance's log tables so you can't confirm any of it even if I did provide it. However it would be real easy for someone at Trion to query the logs and verify what I posted.

However, since you are interested "real numbers" here's an easy one: 0%. I have NEVER received an OJ weapon from a faction lockbox. That one is really easy to keep track of because 0 divided by any number of boxes is still 0%.

Because people just make up figures and/or focus on the poor rng elements and complain to no end without any solid data to back their claims.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 07:40 PM
i have been at many many arkfalls when this happens its sad. one shot 1 kill oj named

and lets not forget the rerolling mastery rng. still cant roll damage on my infectors, snipers or boomers

Jerrmy12
11-18-2015, 07:41 PM
Great question. Just double checked the loot tables and the majors drop 2 items: 1 weapon (up to legendary) and 1 mod (rare or epic).

Which vendor and what are you buying from them? Every one is different so specific examples help track it down.
top notch, and i always buy top notch from tarr vendors.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 08:04 PM
T4 mods are only in boxes right now. T4 guns only come from major arkfalls in the events, not minors. OJ grenades are stupid rare. I should probably address that.

When we get to jackpots, we start to see some interesting psychological phenomenon come into play. Jackpots are truly rare (legendaries really aren't that rare...just feels that way since people are generally looking for a specific one). The odds of any particular person getting one during an event is small. But there are a lot of people in every event, meaning a lot of chances for someone to get one, and jackpots have a nifty message that fires off when someone gets one. That makes them very visible, despite being very rare.i have never pulled a jackpot since the came out from the 64 keys box . never

Bentu
11-18-2015, 08:31 PM
i have never pulled a jackpot since the came out from the 64 keys box . never

I was the same until approximately 5 month ago which I mentioned in another thread.
Since then I've had 3 jackpots from t4 lockboxes.

Edit. I had a Sting an Omec shield an I can't think of the 3rd at the moment and can't check unfortunately.

Crack
11-18-2015, 09:05 PM
The "Working as intended" and "Some have better luck than others" actually saves me a nice chunk of real money now days. I used to spend $100+ a month on boxes and pull lots of legendaries, but with my "luck & working as intended" over this past year and a half I no longer buy bits. Just the cost of the patron pass. So my bank account LOVES this RnG. lol

Too bad this drop chance and rng wasnt in place from the start...I could have saved thousands of dollars. ;)

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 09:20 PM
The "Working as intended" and "Some have better luck than others" actually saves me a nice chunk of real money now days. I used to spend $100+ a month on boxes and pull lots of legendaries, but with my "luck & working as intended" over this past year and a half I no longer buy bits. Just the cost of the patron pass. So my bank account LOVES this RnG. lol

Too bad this drop chance and rng wasnt in place from the start...I could have saved thousands of dollars. ;)

you are not alone

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 10:11 PM
has any gotten more than 22 arkforge from a 64 key box?

pew pew pew
11-18-2015, 10:12 PM
-[so much knowledge]-Finally someone with common sense :) Pretty well explained, unfortunately people will continue to construe connections for pretty low stacks. It's to hard for most of people to accept the fact that randomness is random and that it requires more than a few hundred drops to recognize the randomness. It's not their fault, it's the brain which continuously tries to connect things :)

BoTheFallen
11-18-2015, 10:18 PM
I just love all the "random is random" people. They were always sure to put in their 2 cents when those of us who farmed Doc Mercy for hundreds of hours in Borderlands 2 complained that he wasn't dropping Infinity pistols...until it was proved that he was not coded to drop them in TVHM/UVHM. :)

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 10:20 PM
after a few thousand drops and thousands of arkfalls it not random some is up with the rng . the rng gets struck dropping 1 single type of weapons . then moves to the next type of weapon . and the next type. i ve spent days getting nothing but shottys. spent a day
getting nothing but snipers

pew pew pew
11-18-2015, 10:35 PM
I just love all the "random is random" people. They were always sure to put in their 2 cents when those of us who farmed Doc Mercy for hundreds of hours in Borderlands 2 complained that he wasn't dropping Infinity pistols...until it was proved that he was not coded to drop them in TVHM/UVHM. :)And you think "random is random" people don't farm, don't put hundred's of hours into this game? However, you have nailed it. Infinity wasn't into the loot table, lol. Not an issue of RNG.


after a few thousand drops and thousands of arkfalls it not random some is up with the rng . the rng gets struck dropping 1 single type of weapons . then moves to the next type of weapon . and the next type. i ve spent days getting nothing but shottys. spent a day
getting nothing but snipersAgain, loot table vs RNG. Two different things.

Do you know the myth that people can't sleep on full moon? We construe something, we are connecting our sleeplessness with the very visual full moon.

PTR47
11-18-2015, 10:39 PM
I just love all the "random is random" people. They were always sure to put in their 2 cents when those of us who farmed Doc Mercy for hundreds of hours in Borderlands 2 complained that he wasn't dropping Infinity pistols...until it was proved that he was not coded to drop them in TVHM/UVHM. :)

I was just saying look at the loot table. COLLECT data. LIST the loot table. If the number generator is working, than the loot tables may be broken. I'm not trying to dismiss anybody's experience.

It's like this. Say the loot table is supposed to be a list of 6 items, and you're rolling a die to see what you get. Either may be broken. Everyone is blaming the die, and the devs are looking closely at the die, when it could very well be the table. If the table is supposed to contain 6 items, but it only contains 1, then the die could be right as rain, but you're still just gonna get that one item.

Look in the right place, and direct the devs accordingly.

BoTheFallen
11-18-2015, 10:39 PM
And you think "random is random" people don't farm, don't put hundred's of hours into this game? However, you have nailed it. Infinity wasn't into the loot table, lol. Not an issue of RNG.

Except that it was supposed TO BE in the loot pool. So it just made all of the people like yourself with those condescending " You don't understand RNG" attitudes, look like dbags.

Dixie Cougar
11-18-2015, 10:42 PM
Except that it was supposed TO BE in the loot pool. So it just made all of the people like yourself with those condescending " You don't understand RNG" attitudes, look like dbags.

Because, you know, Trion is responsible for the sins of Gearbox.

BoTheFallen
11-18-2015, 10:43 PM
Because, you know, Trion is responsible for the sins of Gearbox.

And out comes the biggest one of them all.

PTR47
11-18-2015, 10:50 PM
And out comes the biggest one of them all.

Dixie's not a ******bag and the Defiance Devs are being very upfront right now.

BoTheFallen
11-18-2015, 10:55 PM
Dixie's not a ******bag and the Defiance Devs are being very upfront right now.

I disagree. It's just my opinion.

PTR47
11-18-2015, 10:58 PM
I disagree. It's just my opinion.

Tastes may vary.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 11:33 PM
That's kind of what I'm alluding to, if these things can be adjusted to suit then there's no randomness about it.

Imo this rng generator should be across the board with no manipulation at all.

As long as it can be adjusted it's not random.

Yes you can set it up to work within certain parameters but by doing that it's not random.

well said well said

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 11:35 PM
yall need to spread the word to clan members and friends to join the forums . and have their voices heard its the only way things while get address around here

DEATHBRINGER210
11-18-2015, 11:38 PM
And you think "random is random" people don't farm, don't put hundred's of hours into this game? However, you have nailed it. Infinity wasn't into the loot table, lol. Not an issue of RNG.

Again, loot table vs RNG. Two different things.

Do you know the myth that people can't sleep on full moon? We construe something, we are connecting our sleeplessness with the very visual full moon.

so what is the rng for then ? the rng is for the loot right . if not plese explain what the rng is for

clay marrow
11-18-2015, 11:59 PM
I appreciate the time it took and explanation by Rashere to us all here. I am going to say that the idea of a guaranteed named JP of our choice after reaching a certain milestone upon completion of events would be a very fair compromise to all of this. I get the idea of the long fulfilling chase but when the chase ends and you have absolutely nothing to show for it that you enjoy, it sours the experience. Two or three guaranteed JPs an event would be too much but one of your choice untradeable or not would make the most people happy it seems to me.....

I'll take a mincemeat please... XD

richardkrainium
11-19-2015, 01:45 AM
if the rng is working as intended and isnt character based, please explain how it is that there was someone on the 360 whose rng was so bad that he was pulling t3s from mod caches when its a t4 mod box

Octo
11-19-2015, 02:03 AM
The RNG is random.
Now go find a Cano External recoil reduction for your Needler !
Alright, joking aside, RNG is fine. Extremely frustrating but fine. We just need a better loot table. I'm tired of nanoless guns. Like, really, tired.
And melee stocks. And dispersion muzzles, munitions interchangers, shotgun hip spread, white and green items, Tachyons, Hurricanes, Pipers, you know, the useless things !

Claydough
11-19-2015, 02:23 AM
Rng is not random

hempman
11-19-2015, 03:51 AM
Very different things indeed and it helps to be clear.

I've dug into, found, and fixed problems with loot tables. Everything from items being on there multiple times to items not existing at all to an item's chance within a loot table being set incorrectly. There are thousands of loot tables in the game and being specific about where you're having issues helps track down where to look.

That said, when you're just looking at the weapon type and ignoring the rarity and stat changes, there really aren't that many different options in a lock box. Getting the same weapon type back to back isn't very far fetched.

can you please explain that to me?
cause,ive told you repeatedly that i can predict a shotty/sniper in every box.
and then pull them.

and,when i look at my inventory,theres Ars,BRs,Dts,Rockies,Infectors.
all Not the Same weapon type as shottys shields and snipers.

maybe im not explaining this right.
theres 4 items in each box right?
no matter which crate/elite/rep/rewards.
well the Purple item,because i dont get ojs,will almost Always be a sniper,shotty,shield.
80% of the time.

to clarify and head off the trolls,im not complaining about the lack of ojs.
im trying to figure out why i only get certain types of weapons.


It's probably possible to rework the entire score system so its fairer overall, but its a massive effort and there will always be ways to game a system like that.

Better to just be socialist about the whole thing: as long as you put in some minimum level of effort, you get the same rewards as everyone else. Similar to what we have now, just adding that 'minimum level of effort' bit. ......i cant begin to tell you,how many No Effort people get ojs and named drops......
happens All the time!
while the rest of us,who,yanno actually Play the game,
get the Blues...over...and over...and over again.

this is why we are getting tired of the game.
time invested/money spent/for fun/for rewards/that just arent there for us.

pew pew pew
11-19-2015, 03:59 AM
so what is the rng for then ? the rng is for the loot right . if not plese explain what the rng is forReally? RNG , random number generator, creates a random number. The loot table on the other hand associates the random number to an item.

A very minimalistic example...
If you got a loot table of 10 items with 3 shotguns, 2 rocket launchers, 3 snipers, 1 pistol and 1 smg. Your chance to pull your wanted pistol is at 10% while you have an 80% chance to get "crap" and another 10% chance for the less-wanted smg. Just because you don't like shotguns, rocket launchers, snipers doesn't mean the RNG is broken. You have an issue with the loot table. The sad thing; As longer you play as bigger will be this "crap" table. With other words; As longer you play as less likely you will pick a new cherry.

Come on, lets be honest, your inventory is full of weapons you liked once but you are using the cherries of them and you expect sweeter cherries.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 04:03 AM
Really? RNG , random number generator, creates a random number. The loot table on the other hand associates the random number to an item.

A very minimalistic example...
If you got a loot table of 10 items with 3 shotguns, 2 rocket launchers, 3 snipers, 1 pistol and 1 smg. Your chance to pull your wanted pistol is at 10% while you have an 80% chance to get "crap" and another 10% chance for the less-wanted smg. Just because you don't like shotguns, rocket launchers, snipers doesn't mean the RNG is broken. You have an issue with the loot table. The sad thing; As longer you play as bigger will be this "crap" table. With other words; As longer you play as less likely you will pick a new cherry.

Come on, lets be honest, your inventory is full of weapons you liked once but you are using the cherries of them and you expect sweeter cherries.

so the rng wasnt at fault when we got all the converters?

pew pew pew
11-19-2015, 04:05 AM
so the the rng wasnt at fault when got the all converters?Loot table, could have been a duplicate entry ;)

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 04:09 AM
Loot table, could have been a duplicate entry ;)

nope it was a busted rng that handed out all them converters

Octo
11-19-2015, 04:15 AM
Rng is random because you can, technically, get every single item from the loot table. A shotgun, a shield, a pistol... -> a random item. You can also get the same item over and over again, because why not, it's random.
Now, weighted random is a thing, too.




50% - Rare
40% - Epic
10% - Legendary


Can be:
- 50% - Fast action reloader
- 40% - Commando Scope
- 10% - External recoil reduction

Or
- 50% - Outlaw
- 40% - Run-n-Gun
- 10% - Cannoneer

Et cetera.
Don't know if Defiance use this kind of... algorithm, but I'd say yes. :confused:

pew pew pew
11-19-2015, 04:16 AM
nope it was a busted rng that handed out all them convertersBecause that is a better explanation than duplicate entries and it's the moon fault that we can't sleep :)

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 04:17 AM
Really? RNG , random number generator, creates a random number. The loot table on the other hand associates the random number to an item.

A very minimalistic example...
If you got a loot table of 10 items with 3 shotguns, 2 rocket launchers, 3 snipers, 1 pistol and 1 smg. Your chance to pull your wanted pistol is at 10% while you have an 80% chance to get "crap" and another 10% chance for the less-wanted smg. Just because you don't like shotguns, rocket launchers, snipers doesn't mean the RNG is broken. You have an issue with the loot table. The sad thing; As longer you play as bigger will be this "crap" table. With other words; As longer you play as less likely you will pick a new cherry.

Come on, lets be honest, your inventory is full of weapons you liked once but you are using the cherries of them and you expect sweeter cherries.

like someone said on this thread how can it be random if its adjustable ? so the war master dropping all them ojs was the loot table as well

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 04:21 AM
Because that is a better explanation than duplicate entries and it's the moon fault that we can't sleep :)

(sarcasm) we think we know who u work for :)

hempman
11-19-2015, 04:25 AM
Really? RNG , random number generator, creates a random number. The loot table on the other hand associates the random number to an item.

A very minimalistic example...
If you got a loot table of 10 items with 3 shotguns, 2 rocket launchers, 3 snipers, 1 pistol and 1 smg. Your chance to pull your wanted pistol is at 10% while you have an 80% chance to get "crap" and another 10% chance for the less-wanted smg. Just because you don't like shotguns, rocket launchers, snipers doesn't mean the RNG is broken. You have an issue with the loot table. The sad thing; As longer you play as bigger will be this "crap" table. With other words; As longer you play as less likely you will pick a new cherry.

Come on, lets be honest, your inventory is full of weapons you liked once but you are using the cherries of them and you expect sweeter cherries.

yes,yes,my inventory is full of good stuff.....because i Bought them ingame chat.
Not because any of the boxes gave me anything worth keeping and,
Not vendoring for Less that what i just spent to Open the &*&^ box.:(

Bentu
11-19-2015, 04:32 AM
I disagree. It's just my opinion.

You'd be surprised how many sit back and share your opinion.

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 04:48 AM
Keep raging, it's funny. Notice how I never said the RNG was acceptable? No, because you were too busy finding a reason to be salty. Too busy attacking the devs claiming it's broken. It has to be broken. Why? Because you bought a couple lockboxes and got junk. Boo hoo. You ain't special. I've probably left more junk on the ground than you've picked up.

I'm offering solutions to the underlying problem. Certain others are choosing instead to insist that the devs fix something that the devs think is not broken. Good luck with that.

Yes, those with nonsensical opinions should dislike me. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm not running for class president, popularity means nothing. I could sit here and make airhead posts about how the game is all about fun and how we should all be having fun because we're all here to have fun and how broken the RNG is because my psychological biases said so... but I ain't gonna.

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 04:55 AM
And out comes the biggest one of them all.

Your argument was complete nonsense. You used a game by a different developer, published by a different publisher to claim Defiance RNG is broken. Somewhere out there in some game, a loot table was broken, ergo Defiance RNG is broken.

That's crazy talk.

pew pew pew
11-19-2015, 05:13 AM
@Deathbringer
You can only set a low limit and an high limit for rand(), the outcome will be completely random. You can work with this number (the loot table!) but the outcome itself is random, even with "pseudo-randomness" how its called by IT experts is random.


(sarcasm) we think we know who u work for :)
Illuminati anyone?


yes,yes,my inventory is full of good stuff.....because i Bought them ingame chat.
Not because any of the boxes gave me anything worth keeping and,
Not vendoring for Less that what i just spent to Open the &*&^ box.:(And you were able to buy the good stuff for your junk items? Doesn't seem to bad if you got stuff you were actually looking for.

I'm too tired and some guys are too stubborn, last reply from me... doesn't make sense to even try.

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 05:16 AM
Illuminati anyone?


BROlluminati. Welcome to the club.

I guess you haven't made it big on this forum until someone calls you a secret Trion employee for disagreeing with their anecdotally based opinion masquerading as fact. I think I'm up to 6 now despite probably being the worst shill ever. (What if I'm a double agent? What now?!)

Hey Scott, where do I send my W-4?

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 05:21 AM
only 2 players on this thread love the rng

hempman
11-19-2015, 05:25 AM
shaking my head at the people trion to justify things.

and,for your information,i started off w selling trading t4s and now we are one of the most well known ingame daily traders/sellers.
in other words,i Worked to get what i have,i didnt stand around shooting off 2 shots at events and getting free ojs,
i didnt farm,and i didnt get my value of money spent in this game...Yet.

i bought this game/multiple copies/to have Fun and shoot things with other Teammates.
i brought Friends from other games to this game....:(
now,the game consists of standing around,watching people loot drop items and seeing slackers posting about their newest oj.
this isnt the game i thought i was getting addicted to anymore......

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 05:27 AM
shaking my head at the people trion to justify things.

and,for your information,i started off w selling trading t4s and now we are one of the most well known ingame daily traders/sellers.
in other words,i Worked to get what i have,i didnt stand around shooting off 2 shots at events and getting free ojs,
i didnt farm,and i didnt get my value of money spent in this game...Yet.

i bought this game/multiple copies/to have Fun and shoot things with other Teammates.
now,the game consists of standing around,watching people loot drop items and seeing slackers posting about their newest oj.
this isnt the game i thought i was getting addicted to anymore......

What does any of this alleged "information" have to do with anything?

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 05:28 AM
only 2 players on this thread love the rng

Love is a strong word.

You didn't actually read the thread did you?

hempman
11-19-2015, 05:30 AM
notes the same 2 trolling again..didnt we have a talk about this very thing Ocho??
and its the Same 2 people from the last episode....whats the deal.

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 05:33 AM
notes the same 2 trolling again..didnt we have a talk about this very thing Ocho??

A dev comes in here and explains it in detail (which must have taken some effort) and the collective response boils down to "nuuuu it's still broken because stuff and things and I picked up a shotgun from this lockbox and flipped a coin and got heads 4 times in a row CLEARLY RIGGED!"

Well, throw in some random capitalization, misplaced punctuation, etc. I left those out.

This community embarrasses itself sometimes.

hempman
11-19-2015, 05:37 AM
you are preventing productive conversation.

ive been very productive on this thread,ive explained my problem and every detail i can,
in the hopes that it can be figured out.
this forum is For asking questions and debating things.
meanwhile,yet again,you are trolling me.
you did it on my rng thread,and here you are again.
fine,you are Reported.

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 05:39 AM
ive been very productive on this thread,ive explained my problem and every detail i can,
in the hopes that it can be figured out.
this forum is For asking questions and debating things.
meanwhile,yet again,you are trolling me.
you did it on my rng thread,and here you are again.
fine,you are Reported.

Every detail you could? Did you use the bug template they provided? (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?219655-Submitting-Bug-Reports&p=1790987&viewfull=1#post1790987)Did you actually provide any data like this guy? (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?227332-EXL-RNG-Data) Nooope. Instead, this:


as i walk up to the weekly rewards crate and predict a shotty reward and then pull a .....Shotty.
for the billionth time.
yep,no bug here.

cmon,we arent stupid,the whole zone todasy sat and talked about the rng and what we Specifically get and guess what?
its

Look guys, he has a sample size of one billion. It's proven beyond a doubt! This is true science, ladies and gentlemen.

Some people aren't here to "debate" anything, they're here to insist that they're victims. Without any valid evidence. And then accuse anyone who disagrees of trolling. Where is your data?

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 05:54 AM
or the tarr crates stuck on dropping ojs . now tarr crates only drop whites. so the loot table stuck on whites . or the rng set to drop white guns ands mods. or just bad luck/

stayloc
11-19-2015, 06:33 AM
How random is it? Went to lock box pulled 2 OJ weapons, next time I went pulled OMEC shield, next time 100 AF. Last 3 times blues and epic. So what am I saying - random just random.

Kapo
11-19-2015, 07:02 AM
or not being able to role the rolls we want .sinking thousands in forge . ever since rerolling started. sorry but the rng is busted if you took a in game poll . the players would say the rng is broken

Best part about RNG is that is no only broken most of the players that u see winning plenty jps n decent ojs are F2P players investing 0 money on the game I know we are all f2p but many players like me have invested alot of money in this game , I my self have a patron pass and is worth less more daily's to get more vendor junk and more forges to win to sink on reroll and mastery that never happen I can't remember when was the last time I got a mastery that I wanted because it never happens, been playing for a year and have yet to win anything worth keeping from 64kyes lol box so yeah 0jps for me there too . Do see same player winning jps and decent ojs and same player that never get anything nice keep getting junk...

idonthideiblaze
11-19-2015, 07:19 AM
My rng is so broke I've quit an come back a few times due to this my last jp pull was a Piper mkii at the armistice event...an I've pulled 1 jp pull...the guardian angel long ago...an when I do pull ojs from lock boxes its either a pistol or bmg....plz help

richardkrainium
11-19-2015, 07:29 AM
shaking my head at the people trion to justify things.

and,for your information,i started off w selling trading t4s and now we are one of the most well known ingame daily traders/sellers.
in other words,i Worked to get what i have,i didnt stand around shooting off 2 shots at events and getting free ojs,
i didnt farm,and i didnt get my value of money spent in this game...Yet.

i bought this game/multiple copies/to have Fun and shoot things with other Teammates.
i brought Friends from other games to this game....:(
now,the game consists of standing around,watching people loot drop items and seeing slackers posting about their newest oj.
this isnt the game i thought i was getting addicted to anymore......

really...never heard of you

hempman
11-19-2015, 07:35 AM
thats cause 3vyl is my friend and hes the main guy out there.
he helps everyone and i just help him help them.

sixsais
11-19-2015, 07:54 AM
I've read the entire thread (it's been a slow morning) and what I've seen is people generalizing over very specific and personal streaks. You might be getting a lot of shotties now, but that doesn't mean you're going to be getting only shotties from now on until you stop playing Defiance; it also doesn't mean we are all getting shotties. Going by facts, without numbers or stats because I honestly don't care that much as to keep track, I always get different results during each event, sometimes even after achieving very similar scores, with different toons.

Is it easier to get a jackpot or a legendary on a toon just because it has a lower ego? From my experience it really isn't. I'm playing with three toons, two of which are ego 6000 and one that is about 4.2k, and they have been levelled up during events all year round. Have I spent an equal amount of time on each toon, at different egos, on every event? No, I have not. Have I gotten better results in one toon than the other? Yes. On which one? Simply the one I've spent more time in during the events.

note: by grinding I mean showing up at majors, not talking about how much effort I put into them because that varies.

Let's use Hulker Hell as an example. I grinded the event a lot during the first two days because I wanted to do all the pursuits for the title and outfit on my main toon. That resulted in me getting a jackpot I gave away (I didn't like it) within 48h of the event's release. But I also got a bunch of legendaries, rares, a few t4 mods and plenty of blue drops.

Then I moved onto grinding the event with my lower ego, which was barely 2k at the time, for a few days. I received one of the two jackpots I wanted and kept and a bunch of t4 mods during a week of playing with that toon. But I also got A LOT of blue drops and purple weapons that weren't to my liking.

So which toon did better? The one where I got a higher number of legendaries, or the one where I got the one legendary I did want, plus a few useufel rares? Subjectively speaking, the lower ego did better because it gave me results that were more to my liking. But when you go by numbers and rarity of the drops, my main toon did better in 48h of grinding the event like a mad woman. I just didn't like what I got.

Is the rng broken? The devs say no, that it works as it is intended to. It just happens to suck because the rewards rng is giving us are not to our liking or don't fit our needs.

Tbh, I'm more miffed that we're getting non-event drops at event arkfalls than about all the blues I've been getting during this year's NFH. I've gotten 7 legendaries between the weekly crates and drops and I've only kept one of them. So, technically, I'm doing okay, I just don't like what I'm getting.

Events aside, I have yet to see a jackpot from a 64 keys lockbox -- or my coveted oj amakuni T_T from a 7th Legion supply crate, or an oj hog leg from a Gunslinger one -- and I've only gotten oj grenades twice in about 17 months of playing. But I have gotten some decent purples and legendaries I've used to successfuly level up secondary toons -- I've gotten plenty of legendaries from lockboxes, they just weren't good enough to keep or to use on my main toon; at a max ego with pretty much every weapon I've ever wanted.

Sorry for the long post, just posting MY own experience with rng. Takeaway what you will from it.

ps: I will still momentarily rage when I get double blues after an event arkfall, because reasons :p

Dixie Cougar
11-19-2015, 07:56 AM
Events aside, I have yet to see a jackpot from a 64 keys lockbox -- or my coveted oj amakuni

I would give her both of mine, make these tradable! They are just toys, no harm in letting them go to people who will find them amusing.

Mister Ree
11-19-2015, 09:08 AM
I would give her both of mine, make these tradable! They are just toys, no harm in letting them go to people who will find them amusing.

Yep, there's no reason why swords should be untradable anymore and no reason why white weaps can't be brought all the way to supreme, the new roll system makes the upgrade locks pointless

Lithova
11-19-2015, 09:15 AM
Ok here's what we know so far, the RNG is working as intended despite the many complaints of poor loot rewards. Unfortunately they (Trion) feel its at an acceptable level of operation and since its too much to implement another way of loot distribution we're stuck with the current system. These points are reinforced by these statements from Rashere

First we have the true statement that RNG is working as intended. In that fact its absolutely correctly randomly number generating...just like when you flip a coin...you're absolutely flipping the coin.


I believe we've touched on this before, but it's worth talking about again. RNG = random number generator. That's all it does. It generates a random number between the values fed into it. It's actually random, which doesn't mean 'an even distribution' or 'guarantees a result x% of the time'. Every time you ask it for a value, you're getting a random number. By its very nature, randomness has streaks. It's particularly noticeable over the short term or when you're looking for a specific result among many (like a jackpot item). I've personally run many, many tests on our RNG with sample sets in the 100s of thousands and it's working as expected.

But the community has continued to counter-argue that the loot rewards are either unsatisfying or nonsensical, sadly guys, Trion believes the loot rewards are fine its stated here,



It's about the sample set and results weightings. To use loot as an example, let's say a really simple loot table has one weapon each of rare, epic, and legendary tiers. The higher the tier of an item, the more rare it is, so a loot table may look something like this:

50% - Rare
40% - Epic
10% - Legendary


So, right off the bat, there's a 1 in 10 chance of getting a legendary item every time you try. That does NOT mean that you are guaranteed one if you try 10 times. Each result is independent, like flipping a coin. Just because your quarter came up heads the last time doesn't mean it will come up tails the next. Statistically, over a large enough sample size, the average number of tries it takes to get a legendary is actually closer to 7 (ie. 50% of the time, it takes 7 or less tries to get a legendary). By 10 tries, that chance is up to around 65%. 20 tries is about 88%. It never reaches 100%.

Nearly every time we've gone and looked into someone's complaints about going through 'so many tries' and not getting the results they want, they haven't even come close to the number that would be the average to get that result let alone anywhere near the 90% mark. Opening up 7 boxes and not getting a jackpot item doesn't mean the RNG is broken. Jackpots are rare. That's why they're called jackpots.

Now, this is where things start to get more interesting. Actual loot tables obviously have a lot more things in them than 3. As an example case, a 'real' loot table may sub-divide the 10% for legendary into 10 different items, each at a 1% chance.

As you play the game, your gear gets better and the pool of items that would be an upgrade for you gets smaller. Let's say we use that 10% chance to get a legendary on a particular event. When you're first starting, any legendary is great and you get one pretty quickly. Once you get your first one, though, only some portion of the remaining items will be an upgrade. For simplicity, let's say that's 50%. So, in the same event, after you've gotten your first legendary drop, there's now only a 5% chance of getting something that's an upgrade. Get another one? Half chance again. Now its 2.5% (technically 2 or 3% since you can't have half a weapon). Continue that equation until there's literally only a single item that is an upgrade and your chance to get one per event is going to be really small. In our example, that 1 item in 10 legendaries would be a 1% drop chance. Math says the average number of tries (the 50% mark) to get that 1 item would be about 69. You could get it the next time. It could take you 300 tries. But average is about 69.

Apply that same concept to jackpot items, where the chance to get one at all is lower than getting a legendary. If there are 7 jackpots in an event, like Halloween, the chance to get any particular one each time you try is very small.

Same concept applies elsewhere. If you're re-rolling a bonus roll and there's 10 possibilities (for reference, bonus rolls all have the same chance to come up) but only 1 you want, its going to take you an average of 7 tries to get one...but it could take a lot less or a lot more.

From the standpoint of rarity distribution, being RNG based works fine. What it can't do, though, is reward persistence or skill. There are other ways to do that, but they have their own problems so aren't something to just replace RNG based loot with.


Did you catch that? Lemme clarify past the impressive numbers part..



From the standpoint of rarity distribution, being RNG based works fine. What it can't do, though, is reward persistence or skill. There are other ways to do that, but they have their own problems so aren't something to just replace RNG based loot with.


And its further reinforced again in his statement here



There are a bunch of other methods, particularly for loot distribution, that can be used but nothing Defiance can do currently. Some of them are things we've discussed internally and may end up doing, though its not an insignificant effort to implement.


And again here


That's why I mention wanting a minimum threshold rather than something more extreme, like loot chance based on ranking. It's probably possible to rework the entire score system so its fairer overall, but its a massive effort and there will always be ways to game a system like that.

Better to just be socialist about the whole thing: as long as you put in some minimum level of effort, you get the same rewards as everyone else. Similar to what we have now, just adding that 'minimum level of effort' bit.

So they can overhaul / replace the current loot distribution, but that requires a lot of work and sadly we won't be seeing that or any improvements if at all to the current loot distribution, anytime soon.

But wait there's more


T4 mods are only in boxes right now. T4 guns only come from major arkfalls in the events, not minors. OJ grenades are stupid rare. I should probably address that.

Sure the dev's are bound to be incorrect from time to time, however since some players have experienced getting T4 mods at the latest special event majors (NFH), we all knew that the first part of this statement was incorrect regarding the T4 mods, and we all experienced the obnoxious low rate at which OJ grenades drop...but that's not the point here, its the mindset that this dev and probably other dev's thought that NO T4 mods at these events was an acceptable option. I question why are the stats so low anyways?


I should have added this to the list, but it's been said many times: score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end. It only affects currency and XP gain. As long as you've participated in the event, you get the same chance at loot as anyone else.

Not an ideal system and one I'd love to change so there's at least a minimum level of participation required to get anything, but that's how it works.

There you have it folks "score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end." RNG is working as intended, edited to add "new" loot distribution? pshhhhhhhh

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 09:18 AM
Ok here's what we know so far, the RNG is working as intended despite the many complaints of poor loot rewards. Unfortunately they (Trion) feel its at an acceptable level of operation and since its too much to implement another way of loot distribution we're stuck with the current system. These points are reinforced by these statements from Rashere

First we have the true statement that RNG is working as intended. In that fact its absolutely correctly randomly number generating...just like when you flip a coin...you're absolutely flipping the coin.



But the community has continued to counter-argue that the loot rewards are either unsatisfying or nonsensical, sadly guys, Trion believes the loot rewards are fine its stated here,



Did you catch that? Lemme clarify past the impressive numbers part..



And its further reinforced again in his statement here



And again here



So they can overhaul / replace the current loot distribution, but that requires a lot of work and sadly we won't be seeing that or any improvements if at all to the current loot distribution, anytime soon.

But wait there's more



Sure the dev's are bound to be incorrect from time to time, however since some players have experienced getting T4 mods at the latest special event majors (NFH), we all knew that the first part of this statement was incorrect regarding the T4 mods, and we all experienced the obnoxious low rate at which OJ grenades drop...but that's not the point here, its the mindset that this dev and probably other dev's thought that NO T4 mods at these events was an acceptable option. I question why are the stats so low anyways?



There you have it folks "score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end." RNG is working as intended, loot distribution? pshhhhhhhh

ever since the jackpot boxes came out 0 jackpots . none at all

Ea Rapture
11-19-2015, 09:27 AM
Ok here's what we know so far, the RNG is working as intended despite the many complaints of poor loot rewards. Unfortunately they (Trion) feel its at an acceptable level of operation and since its too much to implement another way of loot distribution we're stuck with the current system. These points are reinforced by these statements from Rashere

First we have the true statement that RNG is working as intended. In that fact its absolutely correctly randomly number generating...just like when you flip a coin...you're absolutely flipping the coin.



But the community has continued to counter-argue that the loot rewards are either unsatisfying or nonsensical, sadly guys, Trion believes the loot rewards are fine its stated here,



Did you catch that? Lemme clarify past the impressive numbers part..



And its further reinforced again in his statement here



And again here



So they can overhaul / replace the current loot distribution, but that requires a lot of work and sadly we won't be seeing that or any improvements if at all to the current loot distribution, anytime soon.

But wait there's more



Sure the dev's are bound to be incorrect from time to time, however since some players have experienced getting T4 mods at the latest special event majors (NFH), we all knew that the first part of this statement was incorrect regarding the T4 mods, and we all experienced the obnoxious low rate at which OJ grenades drop...but that's not the point here, its the mindset that this dev and probably other dev's thought that NO T4 mods at these events was an acceptable option. I question why are the stats so low anyways?



There you have it folks "score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end." RNG is working as intended, edited to add "new" loot distribution? pshhhhhhhh

Yup, and It still doesn't matter. Loot is fine. It wouldn't really be cool if EVERYONE pulled 15 JPs an event. And yes, Rashere didn't know about the whole Mods part of Major events, but he deals with weapons. And as a dev he is a natural enemy to practically everyone in the community b/c let's face it (you will never see eye-to-eye with them on alot of things) playing the game and making sure it works are two different things. Frankly you should be happy you have an event.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 09:32 AM
Yup, and It still doesn't matter. Loot is fine. It wouldn't really be cool if EVERYONE pulled 15 JPs an event. And yes, Rashere didn't know about the whole Mods part of Major events, but he deals with weapons. And as a dev he is a natural enemy to practically everyone in the community b/c let's face it (you will never see eye-to-eye with them on alot of things) playing the game and making sure it works are two different things. Frankly you should be happy you have an event.

the dev said it himself this rng runs its streaks . a 2 years plus streak no jps from the 64 key box . i pulled my first oj at ego 3037 a nanoless frc magnum 7/31/2013

Ea Rapture
11-19-2015, 09:37 AM
the dev said it himself this runs it streaks . 2years plus streak no jps from the 64 key box . i pulled my first oj at ego 3037 a nanoless frc magnum

At ego 2k I pulled a Nano less Respark Regen ARK. It did 0 DMG and took a bunch of forge to upgrade but hey, still love it.

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 09:45 AM
At ego 2k I pulled a Nano less Respark Regen ARK. It did 0 DMG and took a bunch of forge to upgrade but hey, still love it.

i just pm a dev to look into my streak of no jackpots i want see what they find .im a daily player and i play on 7 toons

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 09:50 AM
Ok here's what we know so far, the RNG is working as intended despite the many complaints of poor loot rewards. Unfortunately they (Trion) feel its at an acceptable level of operation and since its too much to implement another way of loot distribution we're stuck with the current system. These points are reinforced by these statements from Rashere

First we have the true statement that RNG is working as intended. In that fact its absolutely correctly randomly number generating...just like when you flip a coin...you're absolutely flipping the coin.



But the community has continued to counter-argue that the loot rewards are either unsatisfying or nonsensical, sadly guys, Trion believes the loot rewards are fine its stated here,



Did you catch that? Lemme clarify past the impressive numbers part..



And its further reinforced again in his statement here



And again here



So they can overhaul / replace the current loot distribution, but that requires a lot of work and sadly we won't be seeing that or any improvements if at all to the current loot distribution, anytime soon.

But wait there's more



Sure the dev's are bound to be incorrect from time to time, however since some players have experienced getting T4 mods at the latest special event majors (NFH), we all knew that the first part of this statement was incorrect regarding the T4 mods, and we all experienced the obnoxious low rate at which OJ grenades drop...but that's not the point here, its the mindset that this dev and probably other dev's thought that NO T4 mods at these events was an acceptable option. I question why are the stats so low anyways?



There you have it folks "score has nothing to do with the item rewards you get at the end." RNG is working as intended, edited to add "new" loot distribution? pshhhhhhhh
the dev said lets just say the loot table looks this. these are not the actual numbers they are running

DEATHBRINGER210
11-19-2015, 09:57 AM
and im still rolling my infectors . no damage rolls yet or even a speed boost

Lithova
11-19-2015, 10:37 AM
Yup, and It still doesn't matter. Loot is fine. It wouldn't really be cool if EVERYONE pulled 15 JPs an event. And yes, Rashere didn't know about the whole Mods part of Major events, but he deals with weapons. And as a dev he is a natural enemy to practically everyone in the community b/c let's face it (you will never see eye-to-eye with them on alot of things) playing the game and making sure it works are two different things. Frankly you should be happy you have an event.

Nope, wrong again. Quit trying to pass off your incorrect opinions as fact. Thank you.

Fallen_Aingeal
11-19-2015, 10:49 AM
T4 mods are only in boxes right now. T4 guns only come from major arkfalls in the events, not minors. OJ grenades are stupid rare. I should probably address that.

When we get to jackpots, we start to see some interesting psychological phenomenon come into play. Jackpots are truly rare (legendaries really aren't that rare...just feels that way since people are generally looking for a specific one). The odds of any particular person getting one during an event is small. But there are a lot of people in every event, meaning a lot of chances for someone to get one, and jackpots have a nifty message that fires off when someone gets one. That makes them very visible, despite being very rare.

How is it explained that the SAME ppl receive jackpots {and a lot, if not all} during events, while others have never received one at all{except from the welfare boxes}.

When I witness this, it tells me that the RNG is skewed...JS

Claydough
11-19-2015, 12:34 PM
Still yet to see any kinda of actual real numbers posted...

Bentu
11-19-2015, 01:24 PM
Still yet to see any kinda of actual real numbers posted...

You won't or I doubt you will because people are going off thier experience, it's not something they've sat down and said right I'm going to pump a hundred bucks a month into boxes to see what my rng is like.

Mind you if someone wishes to fund this little experiment and send me the cash I'll gladly buy and open boxes all day long.

What I can say about the jp though is up until recently I hadn't pulled a single jp until I mentioned it in another thread. Since then I've had 3 jackpots from t4 lockboxes.

Make of that what you will but I do play this game quite a lot and if I can I'll open t4s over the lesser ones so I've been happily surprised by my recent change of luck.

TrionBrasse
11-19-2015, 01:33 PM
Hello folks,

We've been following this thread for some time now. Thank you all for your detailed and thoughtful opinions on the topic.
While the RNG mechanism for the game is working as designed and intended (as the Devs have previously stated), we are always looking at ways to improve Defiance's itemization and player experience.

We are now locking the thread, as it has been a very useful feedback vehicle and has served its purpose admirably.
Brasse