PDA

View Full Version : Question about Bio Nano



Menetekel
12-22-2015, 11:23 AM
Please don't mention bio! Bio is horrible, using bio is equivalent to striping your enemy naked, asking him how it feels then killing him with a butterknife!

Okay so I'm confused a little bit here. To me Bio is the best nano in the game. Tearing through plates allowing maximum damage per shot just seems to make sense. So if anyone has any intelligent insight into the Bio vs. other nanos debate then I would greatly appreciate any feedback explaining what/which is better and why.

Menetekel

Jack Robo
12-22-2015, 11:25 AM
Heres a link to the nanos http://www.defiancedata.com/page=15/nano-effects

Mantater
12-22-2015, 11:26 AM
Radiation is green.

Menetekel
12-22-2015, 11:32 AM
Generally speaking I know about nanos in general... I'm looking for specific information regarding the quoted comment as it just doesn't make any sense to me.

For me far and above Bio is the best nano because it actually allows you to do full damage to the enemy. In Warmaster for example a traditional load out would be high DPS Bio weapon for armor break then a High Crit Fire Nano weapon because of the added health nano damage. (Used to be everyone was supposed to have radiation because it stacked... but this seems to have changed and is a different topic altogether anyway)...

Maybe I'm missing something but -30% continuous damage with fire or electric nano seems less effective than the overall damage you would get after using bio to destroy the plates.

WhiteStrike
12-22-2015, 11:34 AM
Okay so I'm confused a little bit here. To me Bio is the best nano in the game. Tearing through plates allowing maximum damage per shot just seems to make sense. So if anyone has any intelligent insight into the Bio vs. other nanos debate then I would greatly appreciate any feedback explaining what/which is better and why.

Menetekel
Once the plates are gone your Bio weapon will have subpar DPS.Not to mention that Radiation can pierce up to 7 Plates thus making Bio redundant. Sure,there are enemies with 10 plattes such as Formidable Bulwarks.But those enemies are so uncommon that you can just carry Bio Grenades to deal with them or use a Scourge,thus allowing everyone to deal Bio damage.

Bentu
12-22-2015, 11:37 AM
Op like you I prefer the Bio nano and it doesn't matter where you shoot an enemy it strips their plates (except wm that is).
Some will say if you're hitting the crit it bye passes plates and shields but you can't always do that.

Menetekel
12-22-2015, 11:45 AM
Once the plates are gone your Bio weapon will have subpar DPS.Not to mention that Radiation can pierce up to 7 Plates thus making Bio redundant.

Is that the radiation damage itself... becaue I would assume the bullet damage would still be at -10% (per plate) until they're broken?

Ea Rapture
12-22-2015, 11:50 AM
Bio is a decent nano, but not the best.

While I agree plate damage is great, I use PS weapons which do far better if your 25% plate DMG Syn procs. I use Syphon with Plateslicer as I get lifesteal while breaking plates and it does decent damage to shield and health not to mention crits bypass plates. So the gun becomes an all around great weapon.

Logain
12-22-2015, 12:06 PM
<snip>

For me far and above Bio is the best nano because it actually allows you to do full damage to the enemy. In Warmaster for example a traditional load out would be high DPS Bio weapon for armor break* then a High Crit Fire Nano weapon because of the added health nano damage. (Used to be everyone was supposed to have radiation because it stacked... but this seems to have changed and is a different topic altogether anyway)...

<snip>

*This is not correct:


Simple Warmaster Guide:

<snip>

5. Choose a high DPS weapon (like a VOT Pulser, Castithan Springer, VOT Tachmag Pulser, Hog Leg, Needler etc.) with either fire, radiation or bio nano close to your ego. SMGs benefit greatly with a falloff mod and I highly recommend it if you are space averse. However, a DMG barrel and staying within 20m of the WM will maximize your DMG output. Shoot your high DPS weapon until the crystal armor breaks.

<snip>

What nano to use?
Good summary of Nano Effects are found at DefianceData (http://www.defiancedata.com/page.php?id=15).
Need a good mixture of Fire, Radiation, and Bio in most kill groups.
- Radiation when proc'ed (indicated by little tick damage) increase all damage from everyone.
- Biological removes the armor plating more efficiently and when proc'ed all damage is increased to armor plating.
- Syphon when procs repairs your shields and increases health but suffers a damage deficit compared to other nanos. (So use only if you die a lot).
- Fire does more damage to health than all other nanos (+50%).
- Nano-Less does the second most damage to health after Fire (followed soon after Radiation and Biological).
I recommend fire and radiation guns and a bio grenade.
TLDR: Use FIRE. If you don't have fire use Radiation. If not those two use Bio/Syphon/Nano-less. And equip a Bio Grenade.

Why Fire?!? I like Bio!?!
The Blue Crystal Armor of the Warmaster is HEALTH based. Much like the Crit Spot when exposed.

If you look at Nano Effects on Defiance Data in the previous question you will notice that Fire does 50% more damage than nano-less while Bio does 15% less than nano-less for a net result of 65% lower DMG if you are using a Bio Weapon compared to Fire.

<snip>

I hope this helps. Good luck all and happy Warmaster hunting!!!

I highly recommend using both fire weapons and a bio grenade. Throw the bio grenade at the floor of the WM right in front of left (non-hanging hand) right before the third set of bombs. This will bio infect the WM allowing all incoming damage with the remove armor buff and will mitigate those who are point hording (term modified to be family friendly).

Menetekel
12-22-2015, 12:13 PM
Bio is a decent nano, but not the best.

While I agree plate damage is great, I use PS weapons which do far better if your 25% plate DMG Syn procs. I use Syphon with Plateslicer.

Have to say a PS Syphon AR sounds pretty sweet. The buff for 3 extra plates would be very nice in deed.

I personally use a Spinal Tap Bio BR myself. The shield and health steal is very nice especially with the plates gone from the bio. My secondary is usually a det of some kind. Use to always be my Scourge but now I switch between that and the Dawn's Light depending on the situation.

I do have to say thought that Plate Slicer is a rarity as there aren't many of those around. If you had the Plate Damage from the Plate Slicer syn and say Fire for the nano then that to me would be a very sweet weapon in deed damage wise. They syphon nano is sort of like a proc'd lifesteal but paired with the 3 extra plates I'm sure it's very sweet.

Logain
12-22-2015, 12:14 PM
To answer the OP question in the most simple of terms. By the time the bio weapon strips away the armor plates a radiation or fire version of the equivalent gun would have already killed the health based enemy.

General rule of thumb for health based enemies with 4 or more plates radiation is the best nano for damage. For enemies with 3 or less Fire is the better nano to use.

For the most part crit hits bypass armor plates in PVE (exception WM and a few bosses/mini bosses in expeditions). In that case, fire is the superior nano to use because it already bypasses armor plates.

For shield based enemies electric is better than bio for analogous reasons.

The one reason I can see about using a bio gun is for support only and only if it has Plate Slicer because grenades/detachment. (There are some min/max players who will even argue that this is not recommended as well btw).

That is the reason why people recommend the use of fire and radiation over bio.

Menetekel
12-22-2015, 12:15 PM
*This is not correct

It use to be... but WM has changed so much that the standard load out has changed as well. Going back two years this was the traditional load out. But it doesn't seem to matter much anymore anyway.

Ray8888
12-22-2015, 12:19 PM
I have good jackpots in every nano, a Lady, a Wolfman, a Warmonger, oddly enough the one that knocks out Bulwarks the fastest is my Supe Precious. I don't know if it's the combo of fire/bio but it's noticeably much more effective.

I'd never bring her in a WM but for Bulwarks she's beast.

Ea Rapture
12-22-2015, 12:31 PM
Have to say a PS Syphon AR sounds pretty sweet. The buff for 3 extra plates would be very nice in deed.

I personally use a Spinal Tap Bio BR myself. The shield and health steal is very nice especially with the plates gone from the bio. My secondary is usually a det of some kind. Use to always be my Scourge but now I switch between that and the Dawn's Light depending on the situation.

I do have to say thought that Plate Slicer is a rarity as there aren't many of those around. If you had the Plate Damage from the Plate Slicer syn and say Fire for the nano then that to me would be a very sweet weapon in deed damage wise. They syphon nano is sort of like a proc'd lifesteal but paired with the 3 extra plates I'm sure it's very sweet.

It kept me alive in HS T30 RD8. So I can't complain. I actually only died 11 times. The least of all 4 of us. Syphon is a very minimal lifesteal making Crits more essential however it still works well, regardless. The 4th part of the Syn helps loads.

Here are my PS ARs Stats. (VBI AR variant)
Mastery: Recoil
Accuracy
Recoil (rolled) [.01 Recoil]
Crit
Stowed
Dmg
Shield Steal

It's old rolls, but still viable.

Logain
12-22-2015, 12:32 PM
It use to be... but WM has changed so much that the standard load out has changed as well. Going back two years this was the traditional load out. But it doesn't seem to matter much anymore anyway.

Bio was really good at point hording. Has been this way since patch 1.5. Before patch 1.5 Radiation and Fire were still better because of the addition damage bonus that could be triggered by those nano proc'ing thus upping damage per second. Nilxain has mentioned the use of radiation in the first WM guide as of Dec 2013 (Note: Arkbreaker DLC was released 12/10/13):



Radiation is the best choice because it provides a raid wide damage buff and it stacks. When selecting any other nanos here is a great guide (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?117431-Nano-Effects-Quick-Guide) for quick reference.

Dixie Cougar
12-22-2015, 12:58 PM
The quote had an odd way of putting it, but it's basically true. Note that none of the DLC5 perks actually increase bio's damage.

For score, bio is king because of armor plate break points. For killing things, not so much.

I don't give a rat's behind about score, so I never use it. If you really want keycodes, it might be worth a look. If you need forge, do coops.

SirServed
12-22-2015, 01:42 PM
I'll explain this using numbers. Everything changed with DLC 5 (Patch 1.5 as Logain stated previously) so you have to look at the big picture with nano effect usage.

No Nano - 5000 card damage
Bio - 4500 card damage
Radiation - 4500 card damage
Fire - 4500 card damage

Bio
With DLC5, it will deal 30% extra durability damage (just durability damage, not actual) and have a 1.5 Armor Plate penetration factor. This means it will deal full damage to any target at up to 1.5 Armor Plate value. Your weapon will max out at 4500 damage done without external influence. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present after 1.5 and the user does not crit (and in special enemy cases) or Bio removes the Armor Plates.

Radiation
With DLC5, a Radiation weapon will deal an additional 15% damage and have a 4 Armor Plate penetration factor.
Radiation's damage enhancement due to DLC5: 4500*1.15 = 5175
Radiation's damage when nano triggers: 5175*1.25 = 6468.75

Since Radiation has an Armor Penetration value of 4 and nanoless weapons have a value of 0, a Radiation user with DLC5 will deal more damage to an enemy target than a weapon with no nano effect in all circumstances, period. In addition, Irradiated can proc, increasing the damage of all users by another 25%. Adding Gamma Rays into the mix, Radiation can put out this much damage to any target with 4 or less Armor Plates and there's nothing they can do about it. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present after 4 and the user does crit (and in special enemy cases).

Fire
Fire has the advantage when it comes to health damage. Thanks to DLC5, Fire users can deal up to 65% additional damage to enemy health bars without external influence. The two downsides to using Fire are Armor Plates (since it has an Armor Plate penetration factor of 0) and Shields (since Fire weapons only deal half damage to them). There's a DLC5 perk to raise Shield damage from 50 to 65%, making it only 10% less effective than everything else that's not Radiation or Electric.

Fire's health damage enhancement: 4500*1.5 = 6750
Fire's health damage enhancement due to DLC5: 4500*1.65 = 7425
Fire's additional health damage when nano triggers: 7425*1.1 = 8167.5

When it comes to raw health damage and no Armor Plates, Fire is the champion, period. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present when the user does not crit (and in special enemy cases).

Electric has the same rules as Fire, but the roles of Health and Shield are swapped.

This is why Logain previously stated that less than Armor Plates present 4 is Fire while 4 or more Armor Plates present is Radiation. Bio's only real selling point is that it rewards points to the user for breaking Armor Plates. You can apply the Bio effect by another means (e.g. Grenade, Scourge, Corruptor, Sludge) and have 100% of your weapon's damage converted to Durability Damage without having to actually sacrifice the benefits of using a good nano. The big picture is that breaking an enemy's Armor Plates is not the same as killing them, meaning full-time Bio users run around using a nano effect intended to remove temporary enemy assets while maxing out at subpar DPS.

EDIT: If you log into the game with DLC5 perks slotted in your Loadout, they won't be active. The fastest way to fix this is to switch Loadouts.

David Irwin
12-22-2015, 02:03 PM
bio is great for wrecking plates,.. but very slow at health damage... fire destroys health but sucks against shields.... radiation is likely the best all around nano... if you had to choose. but they all have some benefit. when running in teams for things like WM or expos's its seems best to have team mates using each fire , bio, and radiation. syphon can be handy cause as long as your killing things you can eat bullets like a boss. I have 2 perforators, one is what you would expect. But the other is syphon converted , I prefer this one on enemies with shields. anything 5 or more plates though, you pretty much gotta use bio or rad , unless someone else is. and electric,.. well i guess its cool to electrocute things, it seems to should to extra damage to anything that is a machine.. but i don't think it does. also being able to use nano perks, versus not , makes a HUGE diff.

Bentu
12-22-2015, 02:07 PM
The one reason I can see about using a bio gun is for support only and only if it has Plate Slicer because grenades/detachment. (There are some min/max players who will even argue that this is not recommended as well btw).

That is the reason why people recommend the use of fire and radiation over bio.

I remember it being mentioned in a thread just after the Plate Slicer syn came out that there was no point in using the Bio nano on a ps weapon as it was a waste of the nano, basically you're better off with a fire or rad nano.
Is that not the case then?

Skiller115
12-22-2015, 02:13 PM
I'll explain this using numbers. Everything changed with DLC 5 (Patch 1.5 as Logain stated previously) so you have to look at the big picture with nano effect usage.

No Nano - 5000 card damage
Bio - 4500 card damage
Radiation - 4500 card damage
Fire - 4500 card damage

Bio
With DLC5, it will deal 30% extra durability damage (just durability damage, not actual) and have a 1.5 Armor Plate penetration factor. This means it will deal full damage to any target at up to 1.5 Armor Plate value. Your weapon will max out at 4500 damage done without external influence. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present after 1.5 and the user does not crit (and in special enemy cases) or Bio removes the Armor Plates.

Radiation
With DLC5, a Radiation weapon will deal an additional 15% damage and have a 4 Armor Plate penetration factor.
Radiation's damage enhancement due to DLC5: 4500*1.15 = 5175
Radiation's damage when nano triggers: 5175*1.25 = 6468.75

Since Radiation has an Armor Penetration value of 4 and nanoless weapons have a value of 0, a Radiation user with DLC5 will deal more damage to an enemy target than a weapon with no nano effect in all circumstances, period. In addition, Irradiated can proc, increasing the damage of all users by another 25%. Adding Gamma Rays into the mix, Radiation can put out this much damage to any target with 4 or less Armor Plates and there's nothing they can do about it. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present after 4 and the user does crit (and in special enemy cases).

Fire
Fire has the advantage when it comes to health damage. Thanks to DLC5, Fire users can deal up to 65% additional damage to enemy health bars without external influence. The two downsides to using Fire are Armor Plates (since it has an Armor Plate penetration factor of 0) and Shields (since Fire weapons only deal half damage to them). There's a DLC5 perk to raise Shield damage from 50 to 65%, making it only 10% less effective than everything else that's not Radiation or Electric.

Fire's health damage enhancement: 4500*1.5 = 6750
Fire's health damage enhancement due to DLC5: 4500*1.65 = 7425
Fire's additional health damage when nano triggers: 7425*1.1 = 8167.5

When it comes to raw health damage and no Armor Plates, Fire is the champion, period. This value is mitigated by 10% per enemy Armor Plate present when the user does not crit (and in special enemy cases).

Electric has the same rules as Fire, but the roles of Health and Shield are swapped.

This is why Logain previously stated that less than Armor Plates present 4 is Fire while 4 or more Armor Plates present is Radiation. Bio's only real selling point is that it rewards points to the user for breaking Armor Plates. You can apply the Bio effect by another means (e.g. Grenade, Scourge, Corruptor, Sludge) and have 100% of your weapon's damage converted to Durability Damage without having to actually sacrifice the benefits of using a good nano. The big picture is that breaking an enemy's Armor Plates is not the same as killing them, meaning full-time Bio users run around using a nano effect intended to remove temporary enemy assets while maxing out at subpar DPS.

EDIT: If you log into the game with DLC5 perks slotted in your Loadout, they won't be active. The fastest way to fix this is to switch Loadouts.
This is why I only have ONE bio weapon in my entire inventory, and that is a FRC Heavy sawn-off Scattergun, which I only used extensively in pvp only. But the day I dropped a rad one it became obsolete instantly. The rad one completely eclipses the bio one! Only reason why it's still in my inventory is because nobody is skilled enough to use one on my server (except shifty) but this is a topic for another thread.

David Irwin
12-22-2015, 02:17 PM
the sludge is a fav of mine, and I have oj bio nades.. but these do not seem to strip armor nearly as fast a bio shotgun, AR/ BR, or det.

Logain
12-22-2015, 02:24 PM
I remember it being mentioned in a thread just after the Plate Slicer syn came out that there was no point in using the Bio nano on a ps weapon as it was a waste of the nano, basically you're better off with a fire or rad nano.
Is that not the case then?

A Bio PS gun fully modded triggers the 4 syn bonus fastest by removing armor plates fastest/easiest. It is great as a support gun.

Also to quickly math (sorry done via phone):

Assume card DMG 100 for both Fire and Bio.

Then Fire DMG to armor plates is 100*(1+Fire Bonus to health+Fire Perk)*(Fire DMG to Plates+PS Bonus [1]):
Fire = 100*(1.65)*0.2 = 33

For Bio DMG to armor plates is 100*(1+No Bio Bonus to Health+No Bio Perk)*(Bio DMG to Plates+PS Bonus [1]):

Bio = 100*1*(1.25+0.1) = 135

So Bio DMG to plates > Fire DMG to plates which helps trigger PS [4].

There is a reason why all the PS Named weapons were Bio.

SirServed
12-22-2015, 02:31 PM
the sludge is a fav of mine, and I have oj bio nades.. but these do not seem to strip armor nearly as fast a bio shotgun, AR/ BR, or det.
There's no argument that the Bio substitutes don't strip Armor Plates as fast as a Bio nano weapon. The overall goal is not to strip armor but how quickly you can dispatch your target. Sure, stripping armor is a means to an end, but not always a necessity. People are placing this necessity above their overall ability to dispatch targets and it falls upon the shoulders of those in the know to carry them to victory.

Smokey Black
12-22-2015, 02:34 PM
My bio plate slicer weapons are the bees knees. Works amazingly with the syn.

Skiller115
12-22-2015, 02:40 PM
There's no argument that the Bio substitutes don't strip Armor Plates as fast as a Bio nano weapon. The overall goal is not to strip armor but how quickly you can dispatch your target. Sure, stripping armor is a means to an end, but not always a necessity. People are placing this necessity above their overall ability to dispatch targets and it falls upon the shoulders of those in the know to carry them to victory. Shhhh.... now they'll know they're being carried!

David Irwin
12-22-2015, 02:49 PM
There's no argument that the Bio substitutes don't strip Armor Plates as fast as a Bio nano weapon. The overall goal is not to strip armor but how quickly you can dispatch your target. Sure, stripping armor is a means to an end, but not always a necessity. People are placing this necessity above their overall ability to dispatch targets and it falls upon the shoulders of those in the know to carry them to victory. as long as your doing damage constantly and you don't get dropped your winning in my books, the rest is personal taste. it would be pretty dull if everyone just ran apex and rad BR..... i run slightly crippled load-outs on purpose sometimes just to test my skill..... you could also argue that better gear may just make you a lazy arkhunter... for some this is the case.

Mister Ree
12-22-2015, 02:50 PM
Don't forget bio doesn't just strip plates, it also slows down targets. I like all nanos, its nanoless that's the problem.

SirServed
12-22-2015, 02:57 PM
Don't forget bio doesn't just strip plates, it also slows down targets. I like all nanos, its nanoless that's the problem.
Bio has a chance to slow down targets whereas the Scourge/Corruptor/Sludge have monopolized this specific effect as a guaranteed passive when used. You'll find no argument about nanoless weapons being a problem. As I can't think of any real merits to grant them at this point, they should simply be removed from the game.

NullWolf
12-22-2015, 03:45 PM
Bio isn't the best option for every situation but its a good nano to have around

Turkeyshot is a natural bio and because of the plate slicer syn its fantastic for close quarters combat in pvp.
Any bio dets are great for coops due to the all the points you get from shredding through all the enemies plates and armor.
Tombstone is just a great all around bio lmg and very accurate for its gun type

Menetekel
12-22-2015, 03:56 PM
I am curious why armor plates even exist at this point considering all the numbers given say they don't mean anything anyway at least to fire and radiation. Will have to get some nano mod converters and test this on my white VOT blast rifle to see how much damage is actually mitigated. It just doesn't make any sense to have armor plates there if they don't do any damage resistance.

Hunting for nano mods to commence will post results when testing completed.

Dixie Cougar
12-22-2015, 04:00 PM
Bio has a chance to slow down targets whereas the Scourge/Corruptor/Sludge have monopolized this specific effect as a guaranteed passive when used. You'll find no argument about nanoless weapons being a problem. As I can't think of any real merits to grant them at this point, they should simply be removed from the game.

Or a change nano feature put in. Easy revenue for Trion if people are in a big hurry, retroactive path to viability for nanoless guns, and less complaining about that JP being the nano someone didn't want.

SirServed
12-22-2015, 04:12 PM
I am curious why armor plates even exist at this point considering all the numbers given say they don't mean anything anyway at least to fire and radiation. Will have to get some nano mod converters and test this on my white VOT blast rifle to see how much damage is actually mitigated. It just doesn't make any sense to have armor plates there if they don't do any damage resistance.

Hunting for nano mods to commence will post results when testing completed.
Bio and Syphon weapons are great for leveling players, but not so much in the endgame portion of Defiance. In addition, Armor Plates are always factored in PvP, even when you crit your target.


Or a change nano feature put in. Easy revenue for Trion if people are in a big hurry, retroactive path to viability for nanoless guns, and less complaining about that JP being the nano someone didn't want.
This is why the collective knowledge of The Consortium doesn't just come from one brain.

WhiteStrike
12-22-2015, 04:45 PM
as long as your doing damage constantly and you don't get dropped your winning in my books, the rest is personal taste. it would be pretty dull if everyone just ran apex and rad BR..... i run slightly crippled load-outs on purpose sometimes just to test my skill..... you could also argue that better gear may just make you a lazy arkhunter... for some this is the case.
An Apex Sludge-Hammer and a Radiation Blast Rifle is your idea of a good loadout?

Bentu
12-22-2015, 05:42 PM
I am curious why armor plates even exist at this point considering all the numbers given say they don't mean anything anyway at least to fire and radiation. Will have to get some nano mod converters and test this on my white VOT blast rifle to see how much damage is actually mitigated. It just doesn't make any sense to have armor plates there if they don't do any damage resistance.

Hunting for nano mods to commence will post results when testing completed.

If I remember what Trick said correctly, Plates were introduced to basically give the Bio nano something to do.
Whether that's the case or not I have no idea but at the time they were thinking of ways to increase the difficulty and came up with this.

If not I'm sure I'll be corrected.

Logain
12-23-2015, 06:51 AM
I am curious why armor plates even exist at this point considering all the numbers given say they don't mean anything anyway at least to fire and radiation.


If I remember what Trick said correctly, Plates were introduced to basically give the Bio nano something to do.
Whether that's the case or not I have no idea but at the time they were thinking of ways to increase the difficulty and came up with this.

If not I'm sure I'll be corrected.

I think Armor Plates exist to up the difficulty of enemies and to add some kind of nuance to nano selection. If Armor Plates did not exist and nanos were as they are now, Fire and Electric would be all that was used. Because Armor Plates exist it gives purpose to Radiation that bypasses them and Bio that destroys them. The issue is that the Bio effect and perks do not stack up comparatively.

Having a Armor Plate penetration perk (Virulent) on a nano designed to destroy plates (Bio) makes no sense to me. Virulent should not be a bypass plates perk for Bio but an increase damage perk for Bio similar to Radiation Burns for Radiation.

Finally just as an aside Syphon would be better off with better perks as well. Bloodsucker should steal more life (maybe 1% more per step so 3% more at max) or make Syphon inherently steal more life to compete with Purge/Hallow Point/Spinal Tap. And Deadly Apparition should have same the value as Radiation Burns.

David Irwin
12-23-2015, 07:18 AM
An Apex Sludge-Hammer and a Radiation Blast Rifle is your idea of a good loadout?
i really don't know , since i've never had an apex, and i'd usually rather use a good AR over a BR... it just seems to be one of the most common loadouts I see among higher ego players.. inspect people hang around traz, there is always a couple rocking that load out.

SirServed
12-23-2015, 11:09 AM
Having a Armor Plate penetration perk (Virulent) on a nano designed to destroy plates (Bio) makes no sense to me. Virulent should not be a bypass plates perk for Bio but an increase damage perk for Bio similar to Radiation Burns for Radiation.

Finally just as an aside Syphon would be better off with better perks as well. Bloodsucker should steal more life (maybe 1% more per step so 3% more at max) or make Syphon inherently steal more life to compete with Purge/Hallow Point/Spinal Tap. And Deadly Apparition should have the value as Radiation Burns.
If these changes were made and the points for breaking Armor Plates were removed, I'm pretty sure the nano bashing would cease to exist due to there being actual balance in the game for a change. I'd also feel a hell of a lot better knowing people with Bio and Syphon weapons were dealing 15% more damage than before, too.

Bentu
12-23-2015, 12:42 PM
I think Armor Plates exist to up the difficulty of enemies and to add some kind of nuance to nano selection. If Armor Plates did not exist and nanos were as they are now, Fire and Electric would be all that was used. Because Armor Plates exist it gives purpose to Radiation that bypasses them and Bio that destroys them. The issue is that the Bio effect and perks do not stack up comparatively.

Like I said back when Trick introduced Plates Bio had nothing to do other than slow an enemy down and even then the 5k player were complaining about the ease of the game and at the same time syphon received a big nerf.
If they'd left syphon alone there'd of been no need for other life steal weapons.
He was also playing a lot of BL2 back then so I'm surprised Bio didn't evolve some slag characteristics to make up for the syphon nerf.

Ea Rapture
12-23-2015, 12:54 PM
Like I said back when Trick introduced Plates Bio had nothing to do other than slow an enemy down and even then the 5k player were complaining about the ease of the game and at the same time syphon received a big nerf.
If they'd left syphon alone there'd of been no need for other life steal weapons.
He was also playing a lot of BL2 back then so I'm surprised Bio didn't evolve some slag characteristics to make up for the syphon nerf.

In a way, it did.

Bio slows targets but as I recall (I may be incorrect about this), bio also reduced the DMG an enemy could inflict (while proced) by 50%. I also believe Bio adds plate DMG to all DMG received.

Also when Radiation Procs, all attacks bypass some Armor.

eaglepowers
12-27-2015, 10:17 AM
I thought:
Armor exists to make nanoless even more craptastic?
Rad has 5% less card damage than other nanos?
Why mention rad and fire procs but not bio's?

Virulent should be damage as stated by Logain. Syphon perks should get a buff.
Even though fire and electric perks seem to have opposing effects I always felt that shields have more hp than health so electric would be a better choice for enemies with shields.

I only pve and I try to either optimize for surviving, speed kills, score, support or a combo of which imo makes all nanos worthwhile.

Buff or remove nanoless weapons in non explosive they are currently worthless.

SirServed
12-27-2015, 01:42 PM
I thought:
Armor exists to make nanoless even more craptastic?
Rad has 5% less card damage than other nanos?
Why mention rad and fire procs but not bio's?

Virulent should be damage as stated by Logain. Syphon perks should get a buff.
Even though fire and electric perks seem to have opposing effects I always felt that shields have more hp than health so electric would be a better choice for enemies with shields.

I only pve and I try to either optimize for surviving, speed kills, score, support or a combo of which imo makes all nanos worthwhile.

Buff or remove nanoless weapons in non explosive they are currently worthless.
Radiation used to have higher card damage than other nano effects and was changed to be equal to others. Shield HP % varies by enemy, with 99ers being the highest. Electric would normally be the correct choice, but it depends on how well you can play it. Shooting a 5 Armor Plated enemy in not the crit spot will result in dealing less damage than you would with a Radiation weapon, making it a wasted effort since you're guaranteed to end up dealing less damage than Radiation would to the target's health.

EDIT: I didn't bother mentioning Bio's effects because I later mentioned weapons that are guaranteed to grant this effect rather than having a chance. Also, the Bio effects don't actually contribute to killing the enemy. Slowing an enemy and lowering its damage done may help keep it away from you but is not the same as killing it. The argument here is that simply dealing more damage to the target and having an alternative to the Bio nano itself that gives you all of the Pros with none of the Cons is the way to go.

Saminator
12-27-2015, 01:50 PM
I've played the game since April 2013, and I can definitely say that fire does the most damage! Especially against boss units that lose their armor at the beginning of the battle pretty much. But yeah fire naturally does 150% damage to health, and even if the enemy has armor, just do critical hits as that bypasses armor plates.

So personally the highest DPS I've seen being used against the Warmaster is the Black Cat, due to having very high crit along with fire nano and the jackpot 5% stat buffs.

SirServed
12-27-2015, 02:04 PM
So personally the highest DPS I've seen being used against the Warmaster is the Black Cat, due to having very high crit along with fire nano and the jackpot 5% stat buffs.
Despite being the best of its kind, the Black Cat is a very underrated weapon. People still cling to their 7.4+ crit value weapons but don't realize how much total itemized damage they're losing by not trading up to the new roll system. It's a shame.

Skiller115
12-27-2015, 05:33 PM
Despite being the best of its kind, the Black Cat is a very underrated weapon. People still cling to their 7.4+ crit value weapons but don't realize how much total itemized damage they're losing by not trading up to the new roll system. It's a shame.

It's really sad to see people clinging onto their MK I Piper! I wouldn't wipe my butt with a MK I Piper! Just because it has double rolls doesn't mean it's better than the new rolls! I wish people could count to 5 and can tell that the Piper MK II has the same amount of reload as the MK I! As well as having better stats overall.

WhiteStrike
12-27-2015, 06:00 PM
It's really sad to see people clinging onto their MK I Piper! I wouldn't wipe my butt with a MK I Piper! Just because it has double rolls doesn't mean it's better than the new rolls! I wish people could count to 5 and can tell that the Piper MK II has the same amount of reload as the MK I! As well as having better stats overall.

It's really sad seeing people cling to any Piper.

Saminator
12-27-2015, 07:03 PM
Despite being the best of its kind, the Black Cat is a very underrated weapon. People still cling to their 7.4+ crit value weapons but don't realize how much total itemized damage they're losing by not trading up to the new roll system. It's a shame.

I don't get it because the mk2 can do the same crit as mk 1 as well. I'll quickly explain.

Mk 1 legendary jackpot wildcat

6% crit assassin
x1.15 crit green
x1.25 crit blue
x1.10 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Supreme Jackpot Wildcat (mk 2 rolls)

6% crit assassin
x1.35 crit supreme (you get this just for supreming it too)
x1.15 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Please learn from this people! Stop clinging onto your mk 1's, no matter how you see it, the mk 2's will ALWAYS be better. I have given you proof here, if their are STILL non-believers, I may just have to take a picture of my supreme wildcat for proof.

Bentu
12-27-2015, 07:35 PM
I don't get it because the mk2 can do the same crit as mk 1 as well. I'll quickly explain.

Mk 1 legendary jackpot wildcat

6% crit assassin
x1.15 crit green
x1.25 crit blue
x1.10 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Supreme Jackpot Wildcat (mk 2 rolls)

6% crit assassin
x1.35 crit supreme (you get this just for supreming it too)
x1.15 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Please learn from this people! Stop clinging onto your mk 1's, no matter how you see it, the mk 2's will ALWAYS be better. I have given you proof here, if their are STILL non-believers, I may just have to take a picture of my supreme wildcat for proof.

That's all well and good but can you tell me why I should give up my mk1 jp wildcat and try and secure a mk11 wildcat (if I had one that is).

There's absolutely nothing that can't be done in this game that warrants the need for these new jps except for the need to have one.

Saminator
12-27-2015, 07:48 PM
That's all well and good but can you tell me why I should give up my mk1 jp wildcat and try and secure a mk11 wildcat (if I had one that is).

There's absolutely nothing that can't be done in this game that warrants the need for these new jps except for the need to have one.

Well once you supreme it and turn it to mk2, even though the crit is the same, everything else is greatly improved. Legendary damage roll changes from x1.10 to x1.12, along with the base damage of the gun also going up around 2% - 3% due to it being supremed, so around 5% more damage. A LOT more mag, quicker reload, and faster fire rate. So everything is improved and i don't think any stat is lower than the mk1 version, so their's no flaw to it, highly recommend it.

Don't think of it as a need, remember for gamers, we just come on Defiance to relax, we don't need anything, heck we don't need to play the game. But we want things, we want better gear, we want to feel stronger, we want to do things that will make the game fun, and we want to feel like we've achieved something from putting time into the game. I feel like this is just one of those things :) Just try not to take the game too seriously.

xXxDSMer
12-27-2015, 07:48 PM
My $0.02:
Bio is great for high armor targets (generally 7-10 plates), and it does do standard dps when the plates are gone. Great for getting plates off so the entire group does full dps sooner than later.

Radiation ignores 2.5 plates on its own, or 4 plates with DLC5 perks (it does not add the 25% it says it does, which would be +2.5 plates, unless it has been fixed). So up to a total of 4 plates ignored making it great for anything with 4, maybe 5, plates - or less.
Whomever earlier said radiation ignores 7 plates, is mistaken. 2.5 plates on its own + 0.5 plates while irradiated + 1.5 plates from DLC5 perk = 4.5 plates at most, and yes radiation does have a damage increasing effect to it that still applies even when there's no plates, but that isn't armor ignoring. It's a damage boost that works regardless of plates on target.

Far as warmaster on radiation vs fire - a combination of both spread across the players in the instance is actually best. Particularly if there's a few ultimag users... not optimally effective to have all those ultimags be radiation, but great for there to be at least one rad and one fire. Why's that you ask? because radiation does have a damage increasing effect while it's DoT is active, and so does fire for bare health targets (which is what the warmaster is for more than most of the fight).

3 stacks of irradiated makes everything do about an additional 50% damage, and 3 stacks of burning also makes non-fire nanos do about an additional 50% damage (3 stacks burning only increses fire damage on bare health by about an additional 10% since it's already at 150% dmg without a DoT of any kind - and electric doesn't get up to 125% on bare health, just 100% while target's burning - but who actually uses electric in wm anyway lol).

Those two damage increasing effects from those nanos DoT's do work together at the same time. So: essentially doubling card dmg with 3 stacks of irradiated and burning going at the same time (plus crit multipliers, overcharge, damage spike, and whatever else is applicable at any given time).

---

and if you're having trouble staying alive, or just would like a bit more breathing room in the level of health department - there's things like syphon anything, rad/fire/bio ST or HP

Bentu
12-27-2015, 07:58 PM
Well once you supreme it and turn it to mk2, even though the crit is the same, everything else is greatly improved. Legendary damage roll changes from x1.10 to x1.12, along with the base damage of the gun also going up around 2% - 3% due to it being supremed, so around 5% more damage. A LOT more mag, quicker reload, and faster fire rate. So everything is improved and i don't think any stat is lower than the mk1 version, so their's no flaw to it, highly recommend it.

Don't think of it as a need, remember for gamers, we just come on Defiance to relax, we don't need anything, heck we don't need to play the game. But we want things, we want better gear, we want to feel stronger, we want to do things that will make the game fun, and we want to feel like we've achieved something from putting time into the game. I feel like this is just one of those things :) Just try not to take the game too seriously.

Erm I'm not the one taking it too seriously my friend, I have absolutely no need for these things that you and the other "gamers" as you say need to want.

One may be better than the other but there is still no need to have it except to want it.

When they introduce a boss that I absolutely must have this gun to beat it then I'll look into getting one.
Until then I'll just play the game.

DEATHBRINGER210
12-27-2015, 08:13 PM
poop boots are awesome . i like the sad look on the players face in pvp , when the have them on

Smokey Black
12-27-2015, 08:23 PM
I don't get it because the mk2 can do the same crit as mk 1 as well. I'll quickly explain.

Mk 1 legendary jackpot wildcat

6% crit assassin
x1.15 crit green
x1.25 crit blue
x1.10 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Supreme Jackpot Wildcat (mk 2 rolls)

6% crit assassin
x1.35 crit supreme (you get this just for supreming it too)
x1.15 crit mastery

Total = 56%

Please learn from this people! Stop clinging onto your mk 1's, no matter how you see it, the mk 2's will ALWAYS be better. I have given you proof here, if their are STILL non-believers, I may just have to take a picture of my supreme wildcat for proof.

the elephant in the room with your crit % calc is adding sup crit mastery. Costing 150 AF a roll is crazy..I nearly lost my mind trying to roll legendary crit mastery. I mean you argument looks good on paper but isn't real.

DEATHBRINGER210
12-27-2015, 08:30 PM
what are the crit stats on the supreme mk2 wildcat cards say?

Saminator
12-27-2015, 10:07 PM
the elephant in the room with your crit % calc is adding sup crit mastery. Costing 150 AF a roll is crazy..I nearly lost my mind trying to roll legendary crit mastery. I mean you argument looks good on paper but isn't real.

You have to look after your weapons! People shouldn't compare their perfectly modded and rolled mk1 weapons to mk2 weapons they aren't going to look after, cause then that isn't a fair way to test the difference between a mk1 and mk2. Gotta test both equally, so this is just a point to those that say (and this is a lot of people) that mk 1 weapons do more crit than mk2, or mk 1's are better than mk 2 cause of multiple same rolls, etc.

Saminator
12-27-2015, 10:08 PM
what are the crit stats on the supreme mk2 wildcat cards say?

Do you mean the rolls? My friend is borrowing mine at the moment but once I get it back I can take a picture of my supreme mk2 wildcat.

SirServed
12-27-2015, 10:22 PM
My $0.02:
Bio is great for high armor targets (generally 7-10 plates), and it does do standard dps when the plates are gone. Great for getting plates off so the entire group does full dps sooner than later.
The problem with this strategy is that most targets in the game can be killed by force without having to remove all of their Armor Plates, meaning the "Bio first, kill later" strategy is inferior.


3 stacks of irradiated makes everything do about an additional 50% damage, and 3 stacks of burning also makes non-fire nanos do about an additional 50% damage (3 stacks burning only increses fire damage on bare health by about an additional 10% since it's already at 150% dmg without a DoT of any kind - and electric doesn't get up to 125% on bare health, just 100% while target's burning - but who actually uses electric in wm anyway lol).
Irradiated doesn't stack with itself, and neither does Burning. Irradiated and Burning trigger for a set period of time and can be refreshed, but do not stack with the addition of multiple triggers. This means you'll get 25% from an Irradiated trigger and only 25%, ever. Electric with the benefit of Burning actually goes up to 112.5% without and 135% with Electrical Fire on Health. It probably feels like less because you aren't factoring things like the target's Armor Plates against your Expected Damage.

r1p
12-28-2015, 07:17 AM
the elephant in the room with your crit % calc is adding sup crit mastery. Costing 150 AF a roll is crazy..I nearly lost my mind trying to roll legendary crit mastery. I mean you argument looks good on paper but isn't real.

Not just the AF going into the mastery but what about supreming in the first place? People are pretty fast and loose when they talk about how much better the current new roll system is due to the ability to supreme weapons. It's as if supreming something is just some trivial process with no costs or risks associated with it, but unless you are willing to dump 3300 AF into into the 100% upgrade option then it's an iffy proposition at best. Once it is supremed then you can begin the trek into re-mastery Hell at 150 AF per attempt and it promises to be a long, frustrating, and expensive ride.

There are way too many paper-stat warriors on here proselytizing on the virtues of re-rolling/re-mastering/supreming to get the absolute best possible weapon and they haven't got the foggiest idea what the "point of diminishing returns" means. Trion put a price on AF by selling it in the bit store so it is worth ~$20 for 500 whether you grind for it or buy it. So in a game that rewards people based on showing up rather than how much they actually do, is it really worth putting $120+ into 1 weapon to make it 3-5% better than it was? The only place where good weapons truly matter is in expeditions and that doesn't mean that they need to be perfect or supreme. You would be better off buying 200 hunter reqs for ~$60 then ~$120 on a golden phallus.

Bentu
12-28-2015, 07:26 AM
$120 on a golden phallus.

Post of the year award goes to r1p :cool:


There are way too many paper-stat warriors on here proselytizing on the virtues of re-rolling/re-mastering/supreming to get the absolute best possible weapon and they haven't got the foggiest idea what the "point of diminishing returns" means.

To be fair to them though they've done everything else in the game to the point of boredom that this is all that's left for them to do.

Mrdr
12-28-2015, 01:55 PM
Post of the year award goes to r1p :cool:

Seconded...not too many days left to beat this one. Good one, r1p. :cool:

Ray8888
12-28-2015, 02:22 PM
To be fair to them though they've done everything else in the game to the point of boredom that this is all that's left for them to do.

This.
After this weekend I have every gun that I wanted. Very little left to do until Heartbreaker except to perfect them.

xXxDSMer
12-29-2015, 03:52 AM
The problem with this strategy is that most targets in the game can be killed by force without having to remove all of their Armor Plates, meaning the "Bio first, kill later" strategy is inferior.


Irradiated doesn't stack with itself, and neither does Burning. Irradiated and Burning trigger for a set period of time and can be refreshed, but do not stack with the addition of multiple triggers. This means you'll get 25% from an Irradiated trigger and only 25%, ever. Electric with the benefit of Burning actually goes up to 112.5% without and 135% with Electrical Fire on Health. It probably feels like less because you aren't factoring things like the target's Armor Plates against your Expected Damage.

Go take your consortium thinks it knows everything self, pick up an ultimag in radiation or fire, shoot it at any target that can survive more than three shots, with all shots fully charged - and try again to tell me or anyone that it's impossible to get 3 stacks of a nano effect's DoT on a target.

Then while you're actually using the weapon I was talking about in regards to 3 stacks of either nano effect - go do some testing of your own, as I have done, with another player and a pve target with a rather large health pool and you'll see that +50% damage as well. And do an actual test with an OBSERVED damage baseline... not card damage baseline like you're assuming my tests were based on, while you were also assuming armor plates weren't accounted for.

As you will discover if you go do those tests yourself - most everything I said is from my own testing in game. And you'll get the same results unless nanos have somehow drastically changed again.

Didn't happen to have an electric weapon to check on the bare health target while it was 3x irradiated or burning, so mention of electric not gaining the same % as other non-fire nanos while a target is burning happens to be based on http://www.defiancedata.com/page=15/nano-effects - which is mostly accurate. Of course there is a chance that "100% while target is burning" may not have been updated when electric got buffed from 50% dmg on bare health to 75% damage on bare health.
How do I know it's "mostly accurate"? Because it does not, and has not, mentioned irradiated increasing damage taken by a target even when all plates are ignored, or there are zero plates remaining on the target.

Also, I find it rather funny that while attempting to tote your knowledge of game mechanics as word from some book that would typically be capitalized as Book if it were pertaining to a religion - that you'd even consider I hadn't thought of armor plates. Lovely display of arrogance though.

================================================== =============

And in response to your first response: I'm not saying everyone should run around with a bio weapon and something else. Bio, whether a blast rifle, corruptor or whatever else: is more of a support thing.

Have a group of four firing radiation, and only radiation, at a 10 plate bulwark and they're gonna be there a hell of a lot longer than group B:
one person in the same 4 person size group uses a bio nade, corruptor det, or just a direct fire bio weapon to get those plates broke faster and that 10 plate bulwark will die faster.
I don't care how good group A's radiation weapons are - group B's going to kill that 10 plate target faster.

7 plate targets quite likely the same.
Granted if all four in group B are using bio, then yeah the group's doing sub-par DPS. However, as you should already know if you possess such great wisdom -- I'm not talking about a whole group all using bio.

Mrdr
12-29-2015, 06:12 AM
I used my Fate's Kiss in the hulker minis where 20 or so would spawn to eliminate plates within seconds of them spawning then switch to my BHF AR to finish them off. Had to stay close to the ammo box, but it was really effective with others in the group using rad and fire to quickly dispatch them. I originally went in those instances with my Dancing Lady but found that within seconds plates were coming off with my bio nades. Problem was...I was running out of nades. Switch to FK and endless bio! Since most others were using rad I decided to bring out the BHF AR...it proved very very effective as well.

Bentu
12-29-2015, 06:18 AM
I used my Fate's Kiss in the hulker minis where 20 or so would spawn to eliminate plates within seconds of them spawning then switch to my BHF AR to finish them off. Had to stay close to the ammo box, but it was really effective with others in the group using rad and fire to quickly dispatch them. I originally went in those instances with my Dancing Lady but found that within seconds plates were coming off with my bio nades. Problem was...I was running out of nades. Switch to FK and endless bio! Since most others were using rad I decided to bring out the BHF AR...it proved very very effective as well.

Snap - depending on character, it's either a bio Sumi/Fates Kiss or Hallowed point followed by a BHF AR.
I use the same type of combo with Saws to.

SirServed
12-29-2015, 06:59 AM
Warning: This post is long.


Go take your consortium thinks it knows everything self, pick up an ultimag in radiation or fire, shoot it at any target that can survive more than three shots, with all shots fully charged - and try again to tell me or anyone that it's impossible to get 3 stacks of a nano effect's DoT on a target.
I will start by respectfully declining, as I will never actually equip an Ultimag of any kind in my career. Credit it to whatever you want, but that's just not going to happen, ever.


Then while you're actually using the weapon I was talking about in regards to 3 stacks of either nano effect - go do some testing of your own, as I have done, with another player and a pve target with a rather large health pool and you'll see that +50% damage as well. And do an actual test with an OBSERVED damage baseline... not card damage baseline like you're assuming my tests were based on, while you were also assuming armor plates weren't accounted for.
No, I won't. What you should be seeing is your card value being increased by 15% from Radiation Burns and then another 25% from Irradiated for a grand total of a 43.75% damage increase, not 50%. You use your card value as a baseline to know what values you should be expecting after beneficial effects are added. However, that was not the case. Thanks for picking this fight by the way. I went into the Bunker and started experimenting to realize that for some odd reason, Radiation Burns is actually adding ~16.67% damage to my card values instead of the 15% that the perk displays. Free damage!

Exhibits A and B (You can click these for full-size images):


http://i.imgur.com/P93Kgtql.png (http://i.imgur.com/P93Kgtq.png)

http://i.imgur.com/URZqAMIl.png (http://i.imgur.com/URZqAMI.png)

The Numbers:
The card value from Exhibit A is 7869 while the display value from Exhibit B is 9181.
Adding 15% from Radiation Burns - 7869*1.15 = 9049 (the actual output is higher, hmm)
The actual difference calculation - 9181/7869 = 1.1667 (and a bunch of floaters)
Going back to Exhibit B...
Adding Irradiated - 9181*1.25 = 11476.25 (nailed it)
Actual gain from Radiation Burns and Irradiated - 11476.25/7869 = 1.4584 (or 45.84% gained)

I then removed my Cyber Rig and all perks, and the display damage matched the card value. I then slotted Radiation Burns and only Radiation Burns to get the ~16.67% damage boost. I then logged and compared numbers from all of my Radiation weapons, the ~16.67% damage theory held. The values were slightly different after the third decimal value, but that can be explained by floating decimal values that we aren't allowed to see on our weapon cards (e.g. 7869.3 damage appears as 7869 damage on the card). As you see, between Radiation Burns and one Irradiated proc alone, it's already getting close to an increase of 50% damage unaided, allowing for the stacking of Radiation procs would create a complete imbalance. The DoT from the nano triggering may indeed stack, or it may simply be benefitting from the numbers I previously posted. Until the DoT starts dealing comparable damage to the weapon in question, I really don't care.


As you will discover if you go do those tests yourself - most everything I said is from my own testing in game. And you'll get the same results unless nanos have somehow drastically changed again.
I did the tests myself before responding last time. I should have listened to my better judgment that told me to post documentation but I was being lazy, shame on me.


Didn't happen to have an electric weapon to check on the bare health target while it was 3x irradiated or burning, so mention of electric not gaining the same % as other non-fire nanos while a target is burning happens to be based on http://www.defiancedata.com/page=15/nano-effects - which is mostly accurate. Of course there is a chance that "100% while target is burning" may not have been updated when electric got buffed from 50% dmg on bare health to 75% damage on bare health.
How do I know it's "mostly accurate"? Because it does not, and has not, mentioned irradiated increasing damage taken by a target even when all plates are ignored, or there are zero plates remaining on the target.
Time for DD to get an update.

Exhibits C and D (You can click these for full-size images):


http://i.imgur.com/Yn7zcRIl.png (http://i.imgur.com/Yn7zcRI.png)

http://i.imgur.com/WhRMqiFl.png (http://i.imgur.com/WhRMqiF.png)

The Numbers (I use DLC5 perks):
Card Value is 5073
Adding the 50% Fire effect from Pyro Grenade - 5073*1.5 = 7609.5
Electric damage to health penalty - 7609.5*.9 = 6848.55
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty - 6848.55*.7 = 4793.985

That number is dangerously close to the value in the screenshot. More floating decimals?

If Electric did actually cap at 100%, it would look something like this instead:
Full card damage or 100% to health, meaning 5073 expected damage.
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty - 5073*.7 = 3551.1

That looks a lot like not what my screenshot shows. I'll stick to the belief that Electric benefits from the 50% damage to Health granted by Burning and DD is outdated. One issue I do have is that even if it were still 50% reduction vs. health, the correct operation would be 50% of 150% = 75% instead of 50% + 50% = 100%.

So I went about it a different way:
5073 card damage.
Instead of adding a penalty, I added the Fire damage increase directly to the nano factor. This pushed the multiplier from .9 up to 1.4 (1.4-.9 = .5 or 50%).
Adding Burning directly - 5073*1.4 = 7102.2
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty: 7102.2*.7 = 4971.54 (Rounds up to 4972, nailed it again)

This means that without DLC5, Electric does 125% damage to health with Burning applied to the target and 140% with DLC5, better numbers than even I theorized. This proves that DD's figures are outdated.


Also, I find it rather funny that while attempting to tote your knowledge of game mechanics as word from some book that would typically be capitalized as Book if it were pertaining to a religion - that you'd even consider I hadn't thought of armor plates. Lovely display of arrogance though.
I chose to credit you with the potential benefit of making a mistake instead of plainly calling you wrong/bad and slinging insults at you.


And in response to your first response: I'm not saying everyone should run around with a bio weapon and something else. Bio, whether a blast rifle, corruptor or whatever else: is more of a support thing.

Have a group of four firing radiation, and only radiation, at a 10 plate bulwark and they're gonna be there a hell of a lot longer than group B:
one person in the same 4 person size group uses a bio nade, corruptor det, or just a direct fire bio weapon to get those plates broke faster and that 10 plate bulwark will die faster.
I don't care how good group A's radiation weapons are - group B's going to kill that 10 plate target faster.

7 plate targets quite likely the same.
Granted if all four in group B are using bio, then yeah the group's doing sub-par DPS. However, as you should already know if you possess such great wisdom -- I'm not talking about a whole group all using bio.
It seems like you didn't quite understand what I said, so I'll say it again: The Bio nano in endgame is mostly obsolete, as there are other weapons available that don't have the Bio nano attached to them but are guaranteed to grant the same benefits instead of relying on a chance to trigger. One Bio user in an Expedition attempting to strip plates from a group of enemies will find themselves less useful to the party than the guy that was designated to show up with and make use of an Autumn's Scourge.

Thank you for your time.

Mrdr
12-29-2015, 07:21 AM
Snap - depending on character, it's either a bio Sumi/Fates Kiss or Hallowed point followed by a BHF AR.
I use the same type of combo with Saws to.

Shame were not on the same platform...I'd empty mags with you any day...

Edit: just realized you are in fact on PS3...I'll try to find you NA next time I'm on.

Bentu
12-29-2015, 09:48 AM
Shame were not on the same platform...I'd empty mags with you any day...

Edit: just realized you are in fact on PS3...I'll try to find you NA next time I'm on.

Psn is OblongDice :cool:

xXxDSMer
12-29-2015, 11:14 PM
Warning: This post is long.


I will start by respectfully declining, as I will never actually equip an Ultimag of any kind in my career. Credit it to whatever you want, but that's just not going to happen, ever.


No, I won't. What you should be seeing is your card value being increased by 15% from Radiation Burns and then another 25% from Irradiated for a grand total of a 43.75% damage increase, not 50%. You use your card value as a baseline to know what values you should be expecting after beneficial effects are added. However, that was not the case. Thanks for picking this fight by the way. I went into the Bunker and started experimenting to realize that for some odd reason, Radiation Burns is actually adding ~16.67% damage to my card values instead of the 15% that the perk displays. Free damage!

Exhibits A and B (You can click these for full-size images):


http://i.imgur.com/P93Kgtql.png (http://i.imgur.com/P93Kgtq.png)

http://i.imgur.com/URZqAMIl.png (http://i.imgur.com/URZqAMI.png)

The Numbers:
The card value from Exhibit A is 7869 while the display value from Exhibit B is 9181.
Adding 15% from Radiation Burns - 7869*1.15 = 9049 (the actual output is higher, hmm)
The actual difference calculation - 9181/7869 = 1.1667 (and a bunch of floaters)
Going back to Exhibit B...
Adding Irradiated - 9181*1.25 = 11476.25 (nailed it)
Actual gain from Radiation Burns and Irradiated - 11476.25/7869 = 1.4584 (or 45.84% gained)

I then removed my Cyber Rig and all perks, and the display damage matched the card value. I then slotted Radiation Burns and only Radiation Burns to get the ~16.67% damage boost. I then logged and compared numbers from all of my Radiation weapons, the ~16.67% damage theory held. The values were slightly different after the third decimal value, but that can be explained by floating decimal values that we aren't allowed to see on our weapon cards (e.g. 7869.3 damage appears as 7869 damage on the card). As you see, between Radiation Burns and one Irradiated proc alone, it's already getting close to an increase of 50% damage unaided, allowing for the stacking of Radiation procs would create a complete imbalance. The DoT from the nano triggering may indeed stack, or it may simply be benefitting from the numbers I previously posted. Until the DoT starts dealing comparable damage to the weapon in question, I really don't care.


I did the tests myself before responding last time. I should have listened to my better judgment that told me to post documentation but I was being lazy, shame on me.


Time for DD to get an update.

Exhibits C and D (You can click these for full-size images):


http://i.imgur.com/Yn7zcRIl.png (http://i.imgur.com/Yn7zcRI.png)

http://i.imgur.com/WhRMqiFl.png (http://i.imgur.com/WhRMqiF.png)

The Numbers (I use DLC5 perks):
Card Value is 5073
Adding the 50% Fire effect from Pyro Grenade - 5073*1.5 = 7609.5
Electric damage to health penalty - 7609.5*.9 = 6848.55
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty - 6848.55*.7 = 4793.985

That number is dangerously close to the value in the screenshot. More floating decimals?

If Electric did actually cap at 100%, it would look something like this instead:
Full card damage or 100% to health, meaning 5073 expected damage.
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty - 5073*.7 = 3551.1

That looks a lot like not what my screenshot shows. I'll stick to the belief that Electric benefits from the 50% damage to Health granted by Burning and DD is outdated. One issue I do have is that even if it were still 50% reduction vs. health, the correct operation would be 50% of 150% = 75% instead of 50% + 50% = 100%.

So I went about it a different way:
5073 card damage.
Instead of adding a penalty, I added the Fire damage increase directly to the nano factor. This pushed the multiplier from .9 up to 1.4 (1.4-.9 = .5 or 50%).
Adding Burning directly - 5073*1.4 = 7102.2
Damage to 3 Armor Plate penalty: 7102.2*.7 = 4971.54 (Rounds up to 4972, nailed it again)

This means that without DLC5, Electric does 125% damage to health with Burning applied to the target and 140% with DLC5, better numbers than even I theorized. This proves that DD's figures are outdated.


I chose to credit you with the potential benefit of making a mistake instead of plainly calling you wrong/bad and slinging insults at you.


It seems like you didn't quite understand what I said, so I'll say it again: The Bio nano in endgame is mostly obsolete, as there are other weapons available that don't have the Bio nano attached to them but are guaranteed to grant the same benefits instead of relying on a chance to trigger. One Bio user in an Expedition attempting to strip plates from a group of enemies will find themselves less useful to the party than the guy that was designated to show up with and make use of an Autumn's Scourge.

Thank you for your time.

Congarats on figuring out something I've known for quite a while (radiation burns = +16.67% instead of +15%.)

And yes you will indeed see increased damage with two stacks of irradiated:

8054 observed dmg
10067 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 1x irradiated = x1.2499 dmg
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 2x irradiated = x1.50dmg
14094 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 3x irradiated = x1.7499

8655 observed damage, no plates (5770 card)
10819 fire rocker 1x irradiated = x1.2500
12983 fire rocker 2x irradiated = x1.4896
15146 fire rocker 3x irradiated = x1.7499

8457 observed dmg. syphon hac 0 plates no dot
10571 syp hac x1 irradiated = x1.2499
12685 syp hac x2 irradiated = x1.4999
14799 syp hac x3 irradiated = x1.7499

The 2x irradiated effect can be observed on a beefy target with a bit of luck on proc of irradiated (increased chances for higher nano chance weapons ofc, like saturnalia hitting crits). The x3 irradiated figures are only obtainable for a very short period after a third full charge rad ultimag shot.

---

fire on the other hand, gets it's full damage boost on the first DoT application:


40086 observed
60129 syphon courier 1x burning = x1.5
60129 syphon courier 2x burning = x1.5

8054 observed
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 3x burning = x1.50
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 2x burning = x1.50
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 1x burning = x1.50

8655 observed (5770 card)
9232 fire rocker 1x burning = x1.0666
9232 fire rocker 2x burning = x1.0666
9232 fire rocker 3x burning = x1.0666
Does work out to x1.6 when dividing observed burning on fire damage by card dmg.

---

Electric & burning or irradiated on bare health: I found out why I didn't test that previously. The only electric weapon in my bag is an og crimefighter = variable damage = unsuitable for testing.

Not surprised electric gets the same +50% dmg boost as syphon, bio, rad, etc (excluding fire because fire's already at 150% on its own).

---

& btw: there's no plates involved in the tests I do (except for finding out things like gamma rays doesn't do the 25% / 2.5 plates it says it does).
I don't include plates, because anyone that's thought about even a fraction of all of this - knows exactly what plates do lol.
And any of the figures, plates effect could be added to, or removed from, and come up the same.
Not to mention: I don't have a 10 ego ultimag to apply DoT's without removing any plates :P So it's just easier to exclude plates from testing.

---

& the effect you're talking about from corruptor/scourge, is "corroding" (or at least that's the term DD uses to describe the bio DoT which adds a claimed +75% armor plate damage to non-bio damage types).
And using bio's DoT, is using at least part of bio nano - even when the weapon itself doesn't do bio damage. As I'm sure you already know, it comes from the pools corruptor/scourge creates, and only lasts as long as the target is standing in a pool.
Still utilizing bio, even though the explosions don't do bio damage :P

And yes, in a perfect group where at least one of them has a corruptor/scourge - that's ideal. However in a group where there is no corruptor/scourge available, one high dps bio weapon or even a good bio converted courier would be better to have (one of) than to not have it. Or for that matter, an apex (if a person somehow does have an apex, but doesn't have a corruptor/scourge).

& btw: I'm that guy that runs around in expo with a 4.5% ammo regen rig and a corruptor. So yes, I do understand what you're saying. :)

PS: I'm on 360, with no screenshot capability - but do feel free to do a quick test with a partner that has a rad ultimag if ya still don't believe :)

Or, ya know, borrow an ultimag - for science.

WhiteStrike
12-30-2015, 02:15 AM
Congarats on figuring out something I've known for quite a while (radiation burns = +16.67% instead of +15%.)

And yes you will indeed see increased damage with two stacks of irradiated:

8054 observed dmg
10067 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 1x irradiated = x1.2499 dmg
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 2x irradiated = x1.50dmg
14094 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 3x irradiated = x1.7499

8655 observed damage, no plates (5770 card)
10819 fire rocker 1x irradiated = x1.2500
12983 fire rocker 2x irradiated = x1.4896
15146 fire rocker 3x irradiated = x1.7499

8457 observed dmg. syphon hac 0 plates no dot
10571 syp hac x1 irradiated = x1.2499
12685 syp hac x2 irradiated = x1.4999
14799 syp hac x3 irradiated = x1.7499

The 2x irradiated effect can be observed on a beefy target with a bit of luck on proc of irradiated (increased chances for higher nano chance weapons ofc, like saturnalia hitting crits). The x3 irradiated figures are only obtainable for a very short period after a third full charge rad ultimag shot.

---

fire on the other hand, gets it's full damage boost on the first DoT application:


40086 observed
60129 syphon courier 1x burning = x1.5
60129 syphon courier 2x burning = x1.5

8054 observed
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 3x burning = x1.50
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 2x burning = x1.50
12081 bio heavy on 0 plate health, 1x burning = x1.50

8655 observed (5770 card)
9232 fire rocker 1x burning = x1.0666
9232 fire rocker 2x burning = x1.0666
9232 fire rocker 3x burning = x1.0666
Does work out to x1.6 when dividing observed burning on fire damage by card dmg.

---

Electric & burning or irradiated on bare health: I found out why I didn't test that previously. The only electric weapon in my bag is an og crimefighter = variable damage = unsuitable for testing.

Not surprised electric gets the same +50% dmg boost as syphon, bio, rad, etc (excluding fire because fire's already at 150% on its own).

---

& btw: there's no plates involved in the tests I do (except for finding out things like gamma rays doesn't do the 25% / 2.5 plates it says it does).
I don't include plates, because anyone that's thought about even a fraction of all of this - knows exactly what plates do lol.
And any of the figures, plates effect could be added to, or removed from, and come up the same.
Not to mention: I don't have a 10 ego ultimag to apply DoT's without removing any plates :P So it's just easier to exclude plates from testing.

---

& the effect you're talking about from corruptor/scourge, is "corroding" (or at least that's the term DD uses to describe the bio DoT which adds a claimed +75% armor plate damage to non-bio damage types).
And using bio's DoT, is using at least part of bio nano - even when the weapon itself doesn't do bio damage. As I'm sure you already know, it comes from the pools corruptor/scourge creates, and only lasts as long as the target is standing in a pool.
Still utilizing bio, even though the explosions don't do bio damage :P

And yes, in a perfect group where at least one of them has a corruptor/scourge - that's ideal. However in a group where there is no corruptor/scourge available, one high dps bio weapon or even a good bio converted courier would be better to have (one of) than to not have it. Or for that matter, an apex (if a person somehow does have an apex, but doesn't have a corruptor/scourge).

& btw: I'm that guy that runs around in expo with a 4.5% ammo regen rig and a corruptor. So yes, I do understand what you're saying. :)

PS: I'm on 360, with no screenshot capability - but do feel free to do a quick test with a partner that has a rad ultimag if ya still don't believe :)

Or, ya know, borrow an ultimag - for science.
What if the Ultimag is the weapon the causes the "Irradiated stacks" that you claim that exist?

SirServed
12-30-2015, 02:35 AM
& the effect you're talking about from corruptor/scourge, is "corroding" (or at least that's the term DD uses to describe the bio DoT which adds a claimed +75% armor plate damage to non-bio damage types).
And using bio's DoT, is using at least part of bio nano - even when the weapon itself doesn't do bio damage. As I'm sure you already know, it comes from the pools corruptor/scourge creates, and only lasts as long as the target is standing in a pool.
Still utilizing bio, even though the explosions don't do bio damage :P
The Bio effect granted directly increases durability damage to 100%, and that came directly from the mouth of the Creative Lead at the time. Having a Bio result and being Bio are two different things. Simply having the Bio nano on your weapon will lower the card damage by 10% and also allow you to equip perks to enhance its effects. Things that have a result are still a guaranteed trigger, much better. Since the Scourge/Corruptor is a manual Det, up to 6 grenades can be placed ahead of time in an ambush type fashion. You can literally cover the floor in a Bio pool as opposed to getting one guy at a time.


Or, ya know, borrow an ultimag - for science.
I'd sooner delete my character.

DEATHBRINGER210
12-30-2015, 03:15 AM
and what did we learn from all this?

Mister Ree
12-30-2015, 07:43 AM
and what did we learn from all this?

I learned, l don't read long boring posts about being meta.

Mrdr
12-30-2015, 08:11 AM
and what did we learn from all this?

That SirServed hates ultimags to the point he won't even use one to attempt to prove someone wrong and thereby must assume that it can triple stack. I also learned that there is someone else in this game who might take the numbers more seriously than even SirServed (and that's saying something because he's usually the numberest guy around...for good reason).

I also learned that I wasn't the only person who thinks bio/fire loadout is fun and useful in some situations. Oh, and Bentu is :cool: because he also uses a BHF AR with a bio back up weapon and he's a fan of Lemmy (different thread but still...).

WhiteStrike
12-30-2015, 08:32 AM
That SirServed hates ultimags to the point he won't even use one to attempt to prove someone wrong and thereby must assume that it can't triple stack. I also learned that there is someone else in this game who might take the numbers more seriously than even SirServed (and that's saying something because he's usually the numberest guy around...for good reason).

I also learned that I wasn't the only person who thinks bio/fire loadout is fun and useful in some situations. Oh, and Bentu is :cool: because he also uses a BHF AR with a bio back up weapon and he's a fan of Lemmy (different thread but still...).

Fixed that for you.

r1p
12-30-2015, 09:31 AM
and what did we learn from all this?

I learned nothing I didn't already know:

In expeditions it is very beneficial for one member of the group to use a Corruptor because it slows down the enemies, aids in stripping their plates, and nerfs the damage that they can do.
Number/Logic geeks love to argue over the slightest bit of minutae because it is so important to them that they are right that it doesn't matter whether if it is really important.
Too many people still believe that the best weapons actually matter in this game. At the end of an event major it is most likely that the best equipped Arkhunter will end up with "2 blues". It is just as likely that a loud mouth noob that has been playing for 3 weeks, thinks that they know everything, and spent almost the entire final screaming in zone for someone to revive them will be rewarded the best JP that the event has to offer. They will then blast zone trying to sell their ego 380 JP for 50mil "cuz I herd dat a 6k saled 1 4 dat much".

eaglepowers
12-30-2015, 09:41 AM
I learned that ultimags are SirServed's math kryptonite.

dremora ven0m
12-30-2015, 10:17 AM
Use a bio hogleg over my bio plateslicer pulser in wm as it scores me more points, I use a plateslicer sludge with a maid in expos if I can be bothered, most the time its 1 of my pipers or my supreme nova, some times I use a duster or wolf man, all depends on the expo & which toon I am also on..
When i start doing heaven sent will prob use my plateslicer electric pulser, then again will prob just go with the piper & maid combo!
As someone said earlier, bottom line is killing the enemies as fast as possible!!