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Rah
04-08-2013, 08:20 AM
My sister and her boyfriend were playing this and he was under the impression it was cross platform, so I bought the game to play with them. Now I've purchased a game that I can't play with the people who I bought the game to play with. I did not read the specifics, I just bought it on steam at his word that it was cross platform. Though I probably do not have a legal claim, this is a problem.

Enough confusion exists about this game's being cross platformed that it is unethical to not clearly indicate up front at the time of purchase that it is not cross platformed play, and what the company's plans are, if any, to ever work toward that end. Sales are being made on third party misrepresentations, and while I applauded Trion for their work in Rift, and perhaps the game of Defiance itself, this unethical profiteering is enough to make me lose all respect for Trion as a company.

dirtyklingon
04-08-2013, 08:22 AM
if you search for it it's easy to find.

cross platform never means that different platforms can play together unless specifically stated they can, which is rare. i can think of 2 examples, ff11 and shadowrun. and that's it.

Kerian
04-08-2013, 08:23 AM
Yes, I agree.

When I bought Modern Warfare for the XBox, I was expecting, since it was a multi-platform release, for it to be cross platform as well.

Yes, yes. Do I have a legal claim against Infinity Ward? Profiteering and respect, and all that.

Lemech
04-08-2013, 08:27 AM
To be honest, I have never seen a cross-platform work ever. Maybe in some of the multiplayer shooters where there isn't much to join up but a single small map, but DCUO was unable to get it to function nor was CCP when they announced their new tie in ground game to EVE was going to function this way, it never really has. So if you see MMO and Cross platform, don't buy it unless your friends all play it with the same hardware Console or PC.

Radz
04-08-2013, 08:28 AM
To make an assumption that essentially goes counter to common multiplatform practices is not the developers fault. Almost all multiplatform games are compatible with only their own platform. Cross-platform gameplay is a pipedream that will likely never become mainstream because the parties involved simply cannot get along well enough for it to happen.

Don't blame Trion because you took the logical leap.

Nextic
04-08-2013, 08:55 AM
buyer beware?

They never said it was cross platform, and why would you want it to be? PC would wreck console peasants with superior controls and that would cause a uproar in PVP.

Honestly its your fault for assuming and not doing a little research on your purchase. I never buy anything past $40 without looking into it.

Kkaos Reinz
04-08-2013, 12:36 PM
buyer beware?

They never said it was cross platform, and why would you want it to be? PC would wreck console peasants with superior controls and that would cause a uproar in PVP.

Honestly its your fault for assuming and not doing a little research on your purchase. I never buy anything past $40 without looking into it.

Actually, they did say it would be cross platform, and in truth it is. It works cross platform on a stand alone network. The problem is, Microsoft in it's infinite stupidity decided that they were not comfortable with the integrity of "other" platform servers, and could not guarantee server stability if they allowed cross platform play... blah blah blah... long story short, Microsoft is kokk blocking because they still hate Sony. EVEN THOUGH Final Fantasy has been cross platform for years, and is still going strong to this day.

Facade
04-08-2013, 12:42 PM
^
Aside from their initial intentions of making it cross-platform they said that it wouldn't be. A quick Google search would tell you that it isn't cross platform.

Radz
04-08-2013, 12:42 PM
Actually, they did say it would be cross platform, and in truth it is. It works cross platform on a stand alone network. The problem is, Microsoft in it's infinite stupidity decided that they were not comfortable with the integrity of "other" platform servers, and could not guarantee server stability if they allowed cross platform play... blah blah blah... long story short, Microsoft is kokk blocking because they still hate Sony. EVEN THOUGH Final Fantasy has been cross platform for years, and is still going strong to this day.
It's been a long time since they said it would be cross platform. Most people around here are new to the game and didn't even know they'd ever said that.

That being said, it was so long ago and was almost a "Yeah, we want cross platform, but we haven't even looked at coding it yet" that you cannot really say they have touted cross platform as a major selling point of the game.

Yeah, it's stupid that companies cannot put aside their stupid grudges for something as awesome as true cross platform play, but that's not Trion's fault and I doubt the entire blame can be laid at Microsoft's feet either.

Chivaro
04-08-2013, 12:44 PM
They mentioned numerous times that it wasn't going to be cross platform.

SlashZaku
04-08-2013, 12:52 PM
Are you sure it's not your sister's boyfriend confusing the terms 'multiplatform' (available on multiple platforms) and 'cross-platform' (being able to play with other players on another platform not the same as the one you're on)? That sounds like this is the case.

To be honest, I have never seen a cross-platform work ever. Maybe in some of the multiplayer shooters where there isn't much to join up but a single small map, but DCUO was unable to get it to function nor was CCP when they announced their new tie in ground game to EVE was going to function this way, it never really has. So if you see MMO and Cross platform, don't buy it unless your friends all play it with the same hardware Console or PC.Um, Dust 514 is still currently in Beta. Their first 'full' release is coming ~May 6th so it's kind of early to say they failed on the EVE/Dust integration just yet.

Rah
04-08-2013, 01:22 PM
Caveat emptor is the defense for all unethical sales practices. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. It's a way for businesses to lose customers permanently. I like Trion, and actually find the game pretty enjoyable, but the fact remains I would not have made the purchase had I not been told by a third party I could play it with console using family and friends.

The problem that exists is that some of the public believes this game is cross platform - that is the servers host the communications to clients on any of the different platforms, so that people with pc can play with people with consoles, not that it is multi-platform with a server for each platform maintained, segregated, and operating independently of each other. I don't really believe that Trion would want an unscrupulous image, so I am trying to help make someone aware that they need to put a warning label on purchases, and make public the situation and intent to cross platform, whether it is dead in the water, silenced by court order, or they are actually doing something about it.

I haven't purchased an MMO since WoW vanilla release that I didn't have friends to play with. For me, that's my whole style of playing an MMO - having a few friends to play with going in, and making more along the way, not having to make all new friends from scratch, dealing with so many unknowns and not having any constants. I purchased it under the impression of another player that I could play with them across the platform gap. I was the first in my sister's circle of people invited to buy and actually discover, no, I can't find you in game, and then do the whole internet search, "uh guys? It's not cross platform. Yeah, there are other people upset about it, too." I'm sure several other people purchased the game under the same false impression.

So I'm not trying to get a refund, I'm not trying to stir up hate, I'm not blaming Trion for lying to me. But I am trying to create an awareness that a false impression exists that specifically profits them, and they have an ethical obligation to clear up the misrepresentation.

Radz
04-08-2013, 01:28 PM
There is nothing illegal or even wrong happening here. THAT's the point people are generally trying to make.

Sledgehammer70
04-08-2013, 01:54 PM
My sister and her boyfriend were playing this and he was under the impression it was cross platform, so I bought the game to play with them. Now I've purchased a game that I can't play with the people who I bought the game to play with. I did not read the specifics, I just bought it on steam at his word that it was cross platform. Though I probably do not have a legal claim, this is a problem.

Enough confusion exists about this game's being cross platformed that it is unethical to not clearly indicate up front at the time of purchase that it is not cross platformed play, and what the company's plans are, if any, to ever work toward that end. Sales are being made on third party misrepresentations, and while I applauded Trion for their work in Rift, and perhaps the game of Defiance itself, this unethical profiteering is enough to make me lose all respect for Trion as a company.

We support cross platforms as in the game is available on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC. But we do not support cross platform play. We have been very open about this across the board.

Defiance will never allow PC users to play with Xbox or PS3 users etc... This isn't a decision we have put in place, this is a policy that both Microsoft and Sony have in place.

Kkaos Reinz
04-08-2013, 02:04 PM
^
Aside from their initial intentions of making it cross-platform they said that it wouldn't be. A quick Google search would tell you that it isn't cross platform.


Agreed, I was simply replying to the post that stated they "never" said it.

Oster
04-08-2013, 02:05 PM
My sister and her boyfriend were playing this and he was under the impression it was cross platform, so I bought the game to play with them. Now I've purchased a game that I can't play with the people who I bought the game to play with. I did not read the specifics, I just bought it on steam at his word that it was cross platform. Though I probably do not have a legal claim, this is a problem.

Enough confusion exists about this game's being cross platformed that it is unethical to not clearly indicate up front at the time of purchase that it is not cross platformed play, and what the company's plans are, if any, to ever work toward that end. Sales are being made on third party misrepresentations, and while I applauded Trion for their work in Rift, and perhaps the game of Defiance itself, this unethical profiteering is enough to make me lose all respect for Trion as a company.

Maybe confusion exists for you, but no offense, I'm pretty sure most other people took 10 seconds to go google it and find out before spending their money on it. They never claimed the servers were cross-platform or that it would ever be for sure after going live, just that the alpha/beta servers ran with all three platforms playing together.

Don't like the fact that it's not cross-platform? Take it up with Microsoft, they're the reason it's not, not Trion.

Kkaos Reinz
04-08-2013, 02:09 PM
There is nothing illegal or even wrong happening here. THAT's the point people are generally trying to make.

Agreed, definitely not Trion's fault. This anti-cross platform agenda has been an issue for a long time between Sony and Xbox. However, seeing as there's now a game that organically grows with a tv show, hey... anything is possible... in another decade or three ;)

Todeswulf
04-08-2013, 02:12 PM
speaking about that...I'm not getting why Trion didn't at least make PC and Xbox cross platform, I understand about the whole Sony/MS war and that they hates each others forever my precious, but Square easily did the cross platform for FFXI, also console games tend to get played and traded or put on the shelf to collect dust, I think the longevity of the game for Xbox players would have been greatly increased.

Colteran
04-08-2013, 02:45 PM
Another case of not doing your research before hand. Bad consumerism 101. Sorry, but this this on your head, not Trion's.

lPATT
04-08-2013, 03:38 PM
i am laughing , i am sorry to laugh at your issue but i am still gonna laugh at it xD

Jardian
04-08-2013, 03:46 PM
The confusion is Cross platform and Cross play are two diffrent things and of course people never look something up. They just assume they are always right.

3rdpig
04-08-2013, 03:56 PM
YOU took the advice of someone who's uninformed and YOU failed to do YOUR research to prove or disprove it.

And that means Trion is unethical? Sorry but no. What that means is that you're just not that bright. Chalk it up to a learning experience and try to be smarter next time.

Dekar
04-08-2013, 03:57 PM
Sorry to hear that you got your info wrong mate, but that really isn't the game maker's fault. If TRUE cross platform was the norm for any genre, then i would feel for you more, but this is just standard game making right now. This game was marketed no differently than the latest call of duty, with logos that say xbox, playstation, and pc, telling you the platforms you can play the game on, but no one flips that you can't play them together. :/

You said that your friend assured you it was cross platform, and sadly, your friend gave you information that he/she didn't actually check up on. Google is your friend mate, but hopefully you get some fun out of the game anyway :)

Daergar
04-08-2013, 08:46 PM
Yay, another case of adorable ignorance. Thanks, made my morning. Good luck with your continued existance, prove Darwin wrong man.

Darkeus
04-08-2013, 09:09 PM
Man, you have to research games before you buy them.

Lol, no wonder CoD games sell so much.... :p

Shinji Ex
04-08-2013, 09:13 PM
Research is a lot easier to do these days on vidya gaems thanks to the internet

FYI besides Final Fantasy 11 there is no such thing as cross platform

Warkaiser
04-08-2013, 11:37 PM
Research is a lot easier to do these days on vidya gaems thanks to the internet

FYI besides Final Fantasy 11 there is no such thing as cross platform

And Phantasy Star Universe.

Wonder
04-09-2013, 02:46 AM
We support cross platforms as in the game is available on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC. But we do not support cross platform play. We have been very open about this across the board.

Defiance will never allow PC users to play with Xbox or PS3 users etc... This isn't a decision we have put in place, this is a policy that both Microsoft and Sony have in place.

not really. from info i gathered from both official and unofficial sites i was also under the impression that PS3, Xbox, and PC users could all coexist within the same game and play with each other for the first time ever - and i actually did my research

im not complaining or anything personally i dont care im just saying theres some confusing info out there and some of it comes directly from you Trion guys

and for the record cross-platform play is very different than multiplatform play. the meanings of the words in cross-platform play (the meanings of the actual words themselves NOT what people have made the term mean - there are many terms that have the same issue) actually suggest that all the platforms would be on the same server (regardless of what the term intends - go ask your english teacher he/she/it will tell you the same)

so i hope you can all see where people who dont know the lingo could get confused. all the empty vague threats were uncalled for tho

Rah
04-09-2013, 10:18 AM
It's hilarious how many people are only reading what they want to see, and then flaming me about blame when I'm not even talking about blame. I took the word of someone I did not have any reason to doubt. It sounded cool, I went for it. Well, now I have reason to double check before spending money on his word, but that's beside the point with the ethical situation. To all the people here who don't seem to understand ethics, it is unethical to profit from a common misrepresentation, even if the misrepresentation is not the fault of the company. The ethical thing to do is to make sure the misrepresentation is cleared up before the time of purchase in a way that is guaranteeing anyone who will buy it is informed before they will buy it. For example, adding a separate, single disclaimer (so that people will read it, unlike a EULA) that must be acknowledged before a purchase is allowed on steam. I'm not blaming Trion for making me purchase the game, only saying that if Trion had such a disclaimer, I would not have purchased the game (and yes, there is a HUGE difference for those of you not seeing it). I'm not even unhappy with the game itself. I'm only upset that a company that I otherwise like a lot might be acting unethically.

@Sledgehammer Thank you very much for the direct response, including the specific status and reason. As you can see in Wonder's response, the language being used is confusing the issue, even in Trion's attempts to be clear across the board about it. One complaint is only one complaint, although I understand not everyone expresses complaints, so there is some representation factor. The real question is, how many complaints regarding this exact issue have you seen? If the answer is 5, 10, or higher, then that is a significant impact of the misrepresentation. The higher the impact, the more urgent this suggestion I'm making: make efforts to clear up the misrepresentation before people buy. Not through press, not on the web site, but at the point of purchase - an acknowledgement on steam, and a sticker on retail store boxes. Something that will be in people's faces. The cost would be minimal and you'll lose a few sales, but you'll be saving people from the misrepresentation, which would ultimately be doing the right thing. And that is all I want: for Trion to do the right thing going forward.

Rah
04-09-2013, 10:33 AM
all the empty vague threats were uncalled for tho

What empty vague threats? I'm hoping you don't mean me, as the only thing I said which I could think of that could possibly be mistaken for a threat is when I spoke about a company being perceived as unethical will lose customers. That is a simple generic observation I would think most people that hold value in ethics would agree with, not a threat to Trion. Or did you read in lack of certainty into "Though I probably do not have a legal claim"? Because I wasn't saying I 'might have a legal claim', I was saying I probably don't have a legal claim, as in, I don't see a legal claim, and I am not pursuing that. I was differentiating legality from ethics, leading my issue as one of ethics.

Superhero
04-09-2013, 10:41 AM
oh man i remember playing quake arena on my PC and demolishing all those virgins on the Dreamcast (Console Kiddie)

Slow as hell, i for-one would love to see 360/ps3 kiddies in PVP easy kill is an easy Kill.

http://murmolka.com/img/l/i.imgur.com/NFhXY.png

Obsidian
04-09-2013, 10:44 AM
My sister and her boyfriend were playing this and he was under the impression it was cross platform, so I bought the game to play with them. Now I've purchased a game that I can't play with the people who I bought the game to play with. I did not read the specifics, I just bought it on steam at his word that it was cross platform. Though I probably do not have a legal claim, this is a problem.

Enough confusion exists about this game's being cross platformed that it is unethical to not clearly indicate up front at the time of purchase that it is not cross platformed play, and what the company's plans are, if any, to ever work toward that end. Sales are being made on third party misrepresentations, and while I applauded Trion for their work in Rift, and perhaps the game of Defiance itself, this unethical profiteering is enough to make me lose all respect for Trion as a company.

This is not trions fault. This is xbox vs ps3 fights from their parent companies. They would insta ban and revoke rights to create games for their consoles if there was any cross console game. Thank them. Also that has been the case since the first xbox console. This is not new information.

Random
04-09-2013, 10:46 AM
My sister and her boyfriend were playing this and he was under the impression it was cross platform, so I bought the game to play with them. Now I've purchased a game that I can't play with the people who I bought the game to play with. I did not read the specifics, I just bought it on steam at his word that it was cross platform. Though I probably do not have a legal claim, this is a problem.

Enough confusion exists about this game's being cross platformed that it is unethical to not clearly indicate up front at the time of purchase that it is not cross platformed play, and what the company's plans are, if any, to ever work toward that end. Sales are being made on third party misrepresentations, and while I applauded Trion for their work in Rift, and perhaps the game of Defiance itself, this unethical profiteering is enough to make me lose all respect for Trion as a company.

I will assume you are joking.

As you just admitted you were a foolish buyer. You heard from a third party source it may be cross platform based on old information long ago made completely obsolete and this is unethical from Trion?

Seriously?

Type into google "Is Defiance Cross Platform 2013".

It is unethical of you to make claims such as this due to your ignorance.

Or in the words of my Xbox people.

"Dude you stupid".

Radz
04-09-2013, 10:46 AM
I'm sorry, but I still don't see the unethical angle. It would be unethical if EVER game ever made was cross-platform and they neglected to mention that "Hey, you can't play this game with other platforms even though EVERY other game does." They are doing the exact same thing as all the other AAA titles, yet somehow they have become unethical for it?

And don't give me BS about misrepresentation. Just because a couple idiots on the internet made some (logically faulty) leap that the game would be cross-platform does not mean anything was misrepresented. It's means some people made assumptions and the general Internet populace was too lazy/ignorant to actually fact check.

Heck, I hoped it would be cross-platform, but I didn't make that assumption. I looked and asked people who I KNEW would know and figured it out on my own.

Rah
04-09-2013, 10:47 AM
Slow as hell, i for-one would love to see 360/ps3 kiddies in PVP easy kill is an easy Kill.

Although I do some pvp in games, I usually do it mostly with friends in a group. Mainly I wanted to be able to group with my sister and her boyfriend who are on a console. Not because of some advantage in pvp.

Hawty
04-09-2013, 10:47 AM
Unless you are brand new to gaming i dont know why youd buy a game thats multi platform assuming its going be cross platform. I always check

Random
04-09-2013, 10:49 AM
oh man i remember playing quake arena on my PC and demolishing all those virgins on the Dreamcast (Console Kiddie)

Slow as hell, i for-one would love to see 360/ps3 kiddies in PVP easy kill is an easy Kill.

http://murmolka.com/img/l/i.imgur.com/NFhXY.png

Ironic post is ironic~

Rah
04-09-2013, 11:13 AM
I'm sorry, but I still don't see the unethical angle. It would be unethical if EVER game ever made was cross-platform and they neglected to mention that "Hey, you can't play this game with other platforms even though EVERY other game does." They are doing the exact same thing as all the other AAA titles, yet somehow they have become unethical for it?
I chose you to respond to because you're less insulting and more trying to make a point. I'm on a pc, and the AAA games I see are mmos or single player, not console games creating platform specific short term games. My first mmo was FFXI, and all the rest have been PC only. So to people who play shooter games that this is old news to, that's nice. To me, the idea of an mmo being cross platform was not only feasible, I played it. Also the fact that they are not cross platform is not the ethical issue. That there is a misrepresentation that profits them is.


And don't give me BS about misrepresentation. Just because a couple idiots on the internet made some (logically faulty) leap that the game would be cross-platform does not mean anything was misrepresented. It's means some people made assumptions and the general Internet populace was too lazy/ignorant to actually fact check.

Heck, I hoped it would be cross-platform, but I didn't make that assumption. I looked and asked people who I KNEW would know and figured it out on my own.

I'm guessing you're only responding to the first post in the thread and didn't read the later ones. I took the word of my sister's boyfriend who I had no specific reason to doubt, along with no warning signs from personal gaming experience. I'm not saying Trion is to blame. I'm saying a misrepresentation exists. To what extent it exists; well Trion knows how many similar issues they've seen in forums and customer service complaints via phone and email, and requests for refunds. If that's a lot, then Trion has an ethical obligation to clear up the misrepresentation no matter how stupid or ignorant or lazy any angry poster here feels the complainants are. There's no issue of fault in this ethical issue; it doesn't matter who created the misrepresentation - only that one exists, it is common enough to affect many people, that the company is profiting from it, and whether or not they do the right thing (clear up the issue before and attached to the purchase so they no longer profit from a misrepresentation). Whether the company or someone in it caused the misrepresentation doesn't matter - only that they continue to profit from it or do something to clear it up.

Sterangerman
04-09-2013, 11:17 AM
This is your own fault, all you had to do is a small amount of checking to be sure. So you goofed up and want to come on the forums and cry about it get real.

Radz
04-09-2013, 11:29 AM
I'm not going to argue anymore since this guy seems to be equating his issue with some great moral wrong and insists on such as a means to shift the blame of this situation to someone other than himself. I leave you with these two words that sum up any purchase you make.

Buyer Beware

Rah
04-09-2013, 12:55 PM
I'm not going to argue anymore since this guy seems to be equating his issue with some great moral wrong and insists on such as a means to shift the blame of this situation to someone other than himself. I leave you with these two words that sum up any purchase you make.

Buyer Beware

I'm sorry you don't understand ethics or absence of blame. Morality and ethics are separate. Morality deals with judgment of an action not necessarily within a specific context like "murder is wrong". Ethics is about judging an action or choice usually within a professional context - like maintaining a policy that profits from harm to people not directly caused by a company - it's less about right and wrong so much as "the right thing to do."

And I'm not blaming Trion for anything. I've specifically said that in my posts. You don't seem to understand how I can urge a company to action in spite of holding them faultless, so you accuse me of "equating his issue with some great moral wrong." Nope, I'm not blaming, and there's no great moral wrong.

In light of a situation, if the situation is prominent enough (again, Trion has access to how many complaints and returns they've received regarding the issue, I'm sure most people don't like the flame war of posting to a forum, getting accused of things you're not even saying, being insulted by people who don't understand and the issue doesn't apply to, and they think because it doesn't apply to them, that they need to defend the company by insulting the person bringing up the issue), a company has an ethical obligation to fix the part of the situation that is unethical. That's it. Very simple. I'm bringing light to it. With this issue, it doesn't matter at all how many people are NOT affected by it, only how many are. So every person that comes in here, not trying to understand my side of the issue, showing support for Trion by insulting me doesn't get that they're not winning anything. They don't get that I like Trion, too, that's why I'm bringing it up (because a customer that cares about a company is more likely to bring up to a complaint than one who doesn't). I'm not even trying to get anything out of the issue personally, only to see that Trion does the right thing and other people do not purchase the game under a prominent third party misrepresentation in the future.

And snarky comments like "buyer beware" is just asking karma to kick you when you're down. There will come a time when some situation far worse than this (because as I said, I'm not even unhappy with the game, just wanting Trion to do the right thing) happens to you, and you will be mentally kicking your own butt for having said it.

Besides, it's not like I'm asking that the game be changed to ezmoad or anything!