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View Full Version : Will there ever be a sniper that does 2000 damage? A RANT!



Manta Dracoon
04-08-2013, 09:50 AM
Now listen to this carefully so I don't give you the wrong idea! I'm aware snipers can do up to 5000 dmg on a criticle hit, but thats not the point of this. I have an EGO rating of 490 and I had (had because its sold now) a BAS that did 1571 DMG. its green and its ego rating was 271. I found another sniper recently to replace tht one due to it being Max lvl and my new sniper does is blue 1259 with an EGO rating of 475. I thought weapons would get increasingly stronger to meet the demand of tougher enemies. Same goes with shields and their capacity.

I hope this changes so we can have better loot for our lvl and not have to down grade and look back. We need to keep looking foward towards cooler and stronger gear and not the same Generic stuff over and over again!

Lazerus
04-08-2013, 09:52 AM
ego ratinf of 1000 here, the 1,2k base sniper rifles are still the highest.
only some additional effects are there, like the meteor rifle for example (knockback or turns enemy around)

Camfak
04-08-2013, 10:09 AM
All items are RNG.
To keep the balance, since 1-5000 has the same PvP/Co-op/etc, weapons will have a very minimal difference between EGO 1 to 5000.

Daergar
04-08-2013, 10:10 AM
A weapon's ego rating or color doesn't matter much for the pure damage. Inherent bonuses/synergies and number of existing modslots is what makes the higher tier weapons attractive. Not their damage, since that will be the same (within the subclass naturally).

Manta, you simply have not understood how the system works and you're making a feather out of a non-existant hen. Future balancing needed; for sure. Different system; nah, quite like this.

As for increasing your power, ehm... you get more ego points, thus more possibilities for diverse builds. More perk slots, more loadout slots (pve matter, but still). Your character gets stronger, the weapons are secondary, relatively speaking.

I actually find that locating the exact right nade and shield for a loadout to be much more important and difficult. Not at least because I tended to sell my, for example, flashbangs with electricity on them because I didn't understand the game well enough during the first few days. ;)

IntenseSpirit
04-08-2013, 10:12 AM
Base damage will never change. You can, however, invest time, scrip, and keycodes to work on getting attachments that increase base damage, and if you're lucky, find a sniper with a static base damage multiplier.

AgentMytho
04-08-2013, 10:21 AM
EGO Rating 670 here, still using a low 200 Shotgun (green), Assault Rifle (blue), and Shield (blue). I have kitted them out with 4 mod slots, although not all slots are filled. I haven't found anything to replace them, although I do try some alternate weapons now and again.

I buy Weapon kits whenever I have enough Keycodes (I started with tier2, now buy tier3), I have only seen 1 Orange item (a rocket launcher, which is pretty good, but runs out of ammo very quickly since it comes with a +5 magazine).

cfStatic
04-08-2013, 10:29 AM
Weapon damage is static, only changing with each sub-group of weapon(Service Rifle vs. Carbines for AR for example). And of course, whether or not you trick them out with mods. Though mods have relatively little effect on a weapon.

Manta Dracoon
04-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Ok some of you are getting the idea I was trying to make, mainly Daergar does. But I have seen many MMOs with PVP that have high class loot and it's still balanced. Guild wars 1 & 2, WoW, and Fury, just to name a few, had it so you can find amazing weapons, armor, and spells and use them in PVP matches.

I want Defiance to do the same! I want to inspect a level 1349(random number) and see that he has some awesome weapons and is a force to be reckoned with, like seeing lvl 81's in GW2.

Having said that I know there are mods and skills, but I want base weapons to get a boost per level so if and when I become lvel 5000 Im not finding and using the same crap loot lvl 1's are finding and using.

Warkaiser
04-09-2013, 09:56 AM
Ok some of you are getting the idea I was trying to make, mainly Daergar does. But I have seen many MMOs with PVP that have high class loot and it's still balanced. Guild wars 1 & 2, WoW, and Fury, just to name a few, had it so you can find amazing weapons, armor, and spells and use them in PVP matches.

I want Defiance to do the same! I want to inspect a level 1349(random number) and see that he has some awesome weapons and is a force to be reckoned with, like seeing lvl 81's in GW2.

Having said that I know there are mods and skills, but I want base weapons to get a boost per level so if and when I become lvel 5000 Im not finding and using the same crap loot lvl 1's are finding and using.

The issue is that such a system doesnt work well in a shooter. Not only that, but those were all RPGs. Both of those things are kind of tied together. In a shooter the system is designed around player skill. You as a player get better, faster, more accurate, move better, use better tactics, etc. An RPG on the other hand is based on your character's skill development with big increases in stats, gear, more powerful skills, etc. In games like WoW, etc where the power gap between multiple levels and tiers of gear is very big, we refer to it as vertical progression.

Though Defiance has some progression it wont be as big of a change as in most RPGs. GW2 was similar, though slightly more vertical, with lower progression than usual but still higher than Defiance, but it was still pretty much your standard MMORPG combat system, justw ith the addition of dodge. The problem is vertical progression and player skill based combat systems dont combine very well. Its not as big of a deal in PvE, but any game where there is PvP it becomes a huge issue and a source of nonstop whining and ragequitting. Everyone is playing vs eachother regardless of level. Reason is you will have not only the gap in player skill (some people are amazing at shooters, some people suck at them) but you will also have a big gap in character power (taking very little damage and doing much more damage). It is extremely difficult to balance such systems, especially ina game with systems like Defiance and a few others where you arent seperated from high level players at low levels in PvP.

Darkfall tried to do exactly that, and it failed pretty hard in large part because of it. It combined twitch / shooter style player skill along with a large difference in stats and gear. The system allowed vets who were both good at that style of combat and also had maxed stats and powerful gear just destroy entire groups of people with little to no challenge. Even if that vet came up against a newer player who was equally or more skilled, their stats & gear often won the fight for them. Wouldnt have been such a big deal if it was just vets fighting vets and newbies fighting newbies, but instead it resulted in a large portion of vets just griefing newbies all day long who couldnt do anything about it. People didnt want to spend a bunch of time being weak compared to everyone else and having to grind for stats & gear, so they just left.

Anyway, a system which combines both can be done. But there is a very fine line that has to be walked to avoid making things too uneven. I think Defiance walks that line pretty well for now. There is a bit of progression there, especially when considering fully moded gear with multiple stat bonuses built in, elemental effects, more perk slots, and increased shield and grenade power, but its not a large gap like in Darkfall which winds up making it very unbalanced. The game just came out, it will still take some time for them to tweak everything and get it perfected. After that is done we will likely see an increase in the amount of progression and / or the types of progression available, as well as new types of gear, at the very least for Season 2 since the cap will most likely be raised as well.

Keep in mind that while the base weapon damage may not increase, your overall power with it does through leveling your weapon skills. You get things like a higher crit multiplier which although it doesnt increase your normal damage, does increase your crit damage. Get yourself a weapon with a natural crit bonus on it, add a crit mod, use some crit perks, and you will do quite a bit more damage with those crits.

Also, the enemies dont become a whole lot tougher in the sense that they do in an RPG. A mob in the later zones wont instantly 1 shot you and you wont do 0 or 1 damage to them if youre low level like you would in your standard RPG. You will have a slightly tougher time due to less bonuses / mods on weapons and less perks, but with practice and player skill you can still manage quite well. You wont be useless just because you dont have some magical numbers that say youre strong enough to do it.

Ralifur
04-09-2013, 10:04 AM
The issue is that such a system doesnt work well in a shooter. Not only that, but those were all RPGs. Both of those things are kind of tied together. In a shooter the system is designed around player skill. You as a player get better, faster, more accurate, move better, use better tactics, etc. An RPG on the other hand is based on your character's skill development with big increases in stats, gear, more powerful skills, etc. In games like WoW, etc where the power gap between multiple levels and tiers of gear is very big, we refer to it as vertical progression.

Though Defiance has some progression it wont be as big of a change as in most RPGs. GW2 was similar, though slightly more vertical, with lower progression than usual but still higher than Defiance, but it was still pretty much your standard MMORPG combat system, justw ith the addition of dodge. The problem is vertical progression and player skill based combat systems dont combine very well. Its not as big of a deal in PvE, but any game where there is PvP it becomes a huge issue and a source of nonstop whining and ragequitting. Everyone is playing vs eachother regardless of level. Reason is you will have not only the gap in player skill (some people are amazing at shooters, some people suck at them) but you will also have a big gap in character power (taking very little damage and doing much more damage). It is extremely difficult to balance such systems, especially ina game with systems like Defiance and a few others where you arent seperated from high level players at low levels in PvP.

Darkfall tried to do exactly that, and it failed pretty hard in large part because of it. It combined twitch / shooter style player skill along with a large difference in stats and gear. The system allowed vets who were both good at that style of combat and also had maxed stats and powerful gear just destroy entire groups of people with little to no challenge. Even if that vet came up against a newer player who was equally or more skilled, their stats & gear often won the fight for them. Wouldnt have been such a big deal if it was just vets fighting vets and newbies fighting newbies, but instead it resulted in a large portion of vets just griefing newbies all day long who couldnt do anything about it. People didnt want to spend a bunch of time being weak compared to everyone else and having to grind for stats & gear, so they just left.

Anyway, a system which combines both can be done. But there is a very fine line that has to be walked to avoid making things too uneven. I think Defiance walks that line pretty well for now. There is a bit of progression there, especially when considering fully moded gear with multiple stat bonuses built in, elemental effects, more perk slots, and increased shield and grenade power, but its not a large gap like in Darkfall which winds up making it very unbalanced. The game just came out, it will still take some time for them to tweak everything and get it perfected. After that is done we will likely see an increase in the amount of progression and / or the types of progression available, as well as new types of gear, at the very least for Season 2 since the cap will most likely be raised as well.

Keep in mind that while the base weapon damage may not increase, your overall power with it does through leveling your weapon skills. You get things like a higher crit multiplier which although it doesnt increase your normal damage, does increase your crit damage. Get yourself a weapon with a natural crit bonus on it, add a crit mod, use some crit perks, and you will do quite a bit more damage with those crits.

Also, the enemies dont become a whole lot tougher in the sense that they do in an RPG. A mob in the later zones wont instantly 1 shot you and you wont do 0 or 1 damage to them if youre low level like you would in your standard RPG. You will have a slightly tougher time due to less bonuses / mods on weapons and less perks, but with practice and player skill you can still manage quite well. You wont be useless just because you dont have some magical numbers that say youre strong enough to do it.

^
|

This.

It doesnt compare to the normal mmorpg loot stat increases. You can compare this game more to a game like doom or unreal or what not where you have the same weapons through the entire game.

What they could have done tho is add more variety as u get higher. aka more types of weapons. Would give a reason to level your EGO after uve gotten the stats you wanted.

Nonetheless you can level your weapons dmg in different ways like for an example focus on your proficiencies in your weapons. Also some weapons comes with a stat that increases its base dmg and you can most likely get modules that increase the dmg as well.

Nonetheless they could still have split pvp and pve like they do in alot of mmorpgs nowadays (Even tho I dont consider this an mmorpg but an mmo with TPS in big letters attached to it :-P) That would have made ground for the pve progression I suppose. :-)

But in the end when there is no progression it is 10 times easier to balance. And this game being a shooter then the pvp element will in the end be what keeps it alive if trion does it right.

Greywolf
04-09-2013, 10:13 AM
<Wall of Text>

What you just said needs to be stickied, people don't understand this yet, and you explain it well.

+1

Dist0rt3d Hum0r
04-09-2013, 10:15 AM
Snip

I think I just fell in love...

Beautifully said.

Dwane
04-09-2013, 10:15 AM
I have an EGO rating of 490 and I had (had because its sold now) a BAS that did 1571 DMG. its green and its ego rating was 271.

Im pretty sure u mean that sniper rifle with 1271 dmg and not 1571.

Tango80
04-09-2013, 10:21 AM
I look at this games guns similar to real life guns.

A boltactionrifle that uses a 7.62mm is going to do roughly the same damage as an assault rifle that uses 7.62mm.

Same round different fire rate different accuracy.

You get my drift? All the guns across the same class tend to do the same amount of damage the only difference is either.

Rate of fire.
Reload speed.
Bloom.
Recoil

Higher Alpha Damage weapons tend to have Either a Very low Reload speed, Low Rate of fire, High bloom, High Recoil or combination thereof.

While Low Alpha Damage weapons tend to have High reload speeds, High rates of fire, Low Bloom, Low Recoil, or combination thereof.

So it's a trade off get a low damage weapon that spews rounds fast with little to no recoil, tight shot grouping, and reloads in the blink of an eye. Or a High damage, Large Recoil, Large shot grouping, and reloads like a slug in a race.

The Crit Multiplier tends to be higher on pistols and Sniper rifles because they have a slow rate of fire compared to AR's and SMG's, Not to mention some have slow Reload speeds also. Also each and every Sniper Rifle comes with a free scope (no mods needed really).

So far this stops the power creep that is inherent in many MMO's Heck if you were in the beta you know what weapon was OP'ed and i'm quite glad they removed that gun. If not look up the Plasma Pulsar then you will know what i'm talking about.

Vikar
04-09-2013, 10:27 AM
I'd also like to echo Warkaiser's response and the responses of everyone who agreed with him.

One of my most favorite things about this game is that character progression doesn't involve meaningless stat inflation but the creation of a build to support your favorite playstyle. I've never cared for vertical progression, I consider it time-wasting filler that needlessly stratifies the community, so this is the very first MMO I've ever truly fallen in love with. And I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online. Lateral progression ftw.

fishboy11
04-09-2013, 10:29 AM
get the perk that gives you bonus dmg from a crouch, i do a little over 3k dmg with a headshot from a crouch with my sniper rifle and i havent put any mods on it yet

jetah
04-09-2013, 10:33 AM
I look at this games guns similar to real life guns.

A boltactionrifle that uses a 7.62mm is going to do roughly the same damage as an assault rifle that uses 7.62mm.

Same round different fire rate different accuracy.

You get my drift? All the guns across the same class tend to do the same amount of damage the only difference is either.

Rate of fire.
Reload speed.
Bloom.
Recoil



I'd at least like to see a slight damage increase, even minor like 5 points, between a 0 EGO vs a 500 EGO.
Then why have the quality color of weapons? why not just make them all white.

Warkaiser
04-09-2013, 10:33 AM
What you just said needs to be stickied, people don't understand this yet, and you explain it well.

+1

I really wish they would. Thats like the 20th time Ive had to make very similar posts between here and mmorpg.com. I should just start copy / pasting it instead of retyping it several times a day.

xScribble
04-09-2013, 10:36 AM
Found a sniper with base DMG multiplier. It's at 1309 base. I'm also hitting for 7k+ on crits with maxed perks. Situational, but I'm getting them. Doesn't add anything to the conversation, but I felt like sharing anyways.

Cavadus
04-09-2013, 10:38 AM
I want Defiance to do the same! I want to inspect a level 1349(random number) and see that he has some awesome weapons and is a force to be reckoned with, like seeing lvl 81's in GW2.

If this game ever turned into that I would uninstall it immediately.

Banal skinner box treadmill content like that has no place in a legitimate shooter.

Tango80
04-09-2013, 10:40 AM
I'd at least like to see a slight damage increase, even minor like 5 points, between a 0 EGO vs a 500 EGO.
Then why have the quality color of weapons? why not just make them all white.

Synergy man Synergy.

High ego Purple guns and Orange guns have higher synergy slots then a blue gun.

Which in turns makes the gun that much more powerful.
An Orange gun might have this for a Synergy stat.
1. 1% Ammo Regen per second
2. 2% Ammo Regen per second
3. 5% cool down on EGO power after kill
4. 10% cool down on EGO power after kill

A purple would have two synergy slots while a blue would only have one.
Now do you understand?

Hecate
04-09-2013, 10:40 AM
I'd at least like to see a slight damage increase, even minor like 5 points, between a 0 EGO vs a 500 EGO.
Then why have the quality color of weapons? why not just make them all white.

If you are still low EGO you won't notice much of a difference between the color tiers. Once you get up there the differences become far more obvious. Blues and better start getting synergies and have more innate bonuses like higher clip size and/or bonuses to other weapon stats (straight damage is pretty rare and always single digit % though).

fang1192
04-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Synergy man Synergy.

High ego Purple guns and Orange guns have higher synergy slots then a blue gun.

Which in turns makes the gun that much more powerful.
An Orange gun might have this for a Synergy stat.
1. 1% Ammo Regen per second
2. 2% Ammo Regen per second
3. 5% cool down on EGO power after kill
4. 10% cool down on EGO power after kill

A purple would have two synergy slots while a blue would only have one.
Now do you understand?

I want that as an Assault Rifle/ Submachine Gun - seriously

Tango80
04-09-2013, 10:44 AM
For example if you go to the VBI vendor and take a look at the purple guns. You will notice these guns have a synergy bonus toward crit damage. Specifically the pistols and sniper rifles. Get the correct synergy mods into those guns then you will have a pretty tricked out death dealing machine.

Thunderclap
04-09-2013, 10:59 AM
Which is why I am so so happy that I did the gamestop preorder. I love the sporeshot. It will actually kill the cleavers before they kill me at melee range. (besides the cool animation of them puffing up, exploding, the alien[the movie] bugs running out, biting the mutant rifleman to death and scattering. Its is d@mn awesome. I do agree though. I would love an orange sniper rifle. (would love a rocket launcher too) Nevertheless, have yet to find something with the bolt on it. Flames yes (ar and smg with it) radiation yes (grenades and pistol)

Mustaine
04-09-2013, 11:05 AM
You're lvl 5/50.

Look out for a EGO 2K+ sniper, stats oughta be better.

Tango80
04-09-2013, 11:10 AM
You're lvl 5/50.

Look out for a EGO 2K+ sniper, stats oughta be better.

Stats are pretty static across Ego levels Damage is roughly the same. However If the gun levels up the added extra stat can add damage or more crit.

Also Higher Ego level guns tend to have synergy bonuses to most if not all guns blue rarity and up.

iChinglish
04-09-2013, 11:12 AM
Bolt actions are fine at the moment. I use the FRC one which does 1271 damage base and I kill most things in one headshot. Stronger mobs are staggered so it's easy to lock them down in stuns.

Pair that with all the damage / crit mult buffs from the EGO grid around cloak and you deal heavy heavy damage to even the biggest and toughest enemies.

Also, as has been said, this is a shooter first. Shooters need balance. In Unreal Tournament, one player's flak cannon was exactly equal to the next player's, in Quake, one player's plasma gun was exactly the same as the next and so on. Higher level guns get strengths in the form of stronger synergies and nano-effects.

Vilmu
04-09-2013, 11:13 AM
still balanced.

WoW

PvP balanced in WoW..? We must be thinking about different games here...

But to stay on topic, i don't mind the current system as it is.

Greywolf
04-09-2013, 11:27 AM
Progression in this game doesn't go up, it goes sideways.

If that makes sense.

Anyway, as soon as I find an orange wolfhound pistol with run-n-gun synergy on it I will be in heaven, ... painful getting all those mods together tho..

Warkaiser
04-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Progression in this game doesn't go up, it goes sideways.

If that makes sense.

Anyway, as soon as I find an orange wolfhound pistol with run-n-gun synergy on it I will be in heaven, ... painful getting all those mods together tho..

Heh. Im looking for the same. Love my Wolfhounds. Goes great with my sniper rifle & crit perks.

Ralifur
04-09-2013, 02:30 PM
Synergy man Synergy.

High ego Purple guns and Orange guns have higher synergy slots then a blue gun.

Which in turns makes the gun that much more powerful.
An Orange gun might have this for a Synergy stat.
1. 1% Ammo Regen per second
2. 2% Ammo Regen per second
3. 5% cool down on EGO power after kill
4. 10% cool down on EGO power after kill

A purple would have two synergy slots while a blue would only have one.
Now do you understand?

This is also not the only thing. The higher the grade of the weapon the more "Enchants" or added stats or whatever u wanna call them, they will have.

Inside these added stats there can also be increased dmg in various ways so there you have it. thats your progression and thats what you should be aiming for. You look for the weapon that fits YOU! and trust me that will take a long long time. :-)

PS: well said also tango80