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Zacharyne
04-11-2013, 03:26 AM
Okay, so I tried one of these and I now have a pressing question:

You only have one or two shots and it takes ages to reload. The damage output is laughable compared to any other shotgun, or perhaps any other weapon when you factor in the load times. I also see that the damage is to be nerfed in the coming patch.

So, the resulting question, what the hell am I missing with this weapon type?

Karzak
04-11-2013, 03:29 AM
Okay, so I tried one of these and I now have a pressing question:

You only have one or two shots and it takes ages to reload. The damage output is laughable compared to any other shotgun, or perhaps any other weapon when you factor in the load times. I also see that the damage is to be nerfed in the coming patch.

So, the resulting question, what the hell am I missing with this weapon type?

pvp, thats why

Arsenic_Touch
04-11-2013, 03:30 AM
There are perks that if used in combination with the sawed off shotgun, they can be useful in pvp, but outside of that they mostly suck and now with the nerf they're going to be even worse in pve.

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 03:31 AM
Don't forget that they fire twice, so the damage is effectively twice what it displays.

Doowi
04-11-2013, 03:34 AM
Cloak with Shadowed Strike and the Sawn-Off = 1 shot kill

Zacharyne
04-11-2013, 03:45 AM
Cloak with Shadowed Strike and the Sawn-Off = 1 shot kill

This seems to be the common theme in most posts.
Sad that it's going to render the PvE content almost worthless.

Doowi
04-11-2013, 04:01 AM
This seems to be the common theme in most posts.
Sad that it's going to render the PvE content almost worthless.

Uh no it won't. Shotguns are still perfectly fine in PvE and to be honest the nerf is required as I've been on both ends of the shotgun while doing this, so I understand it's very OP and very annoying. This is no way will affect PvE, so don't worry.

Beats
04-11-2013, 04:07 AM
I dont even use cloak and I have a sawed off that is still a guarantee 1hit at close range in pvp.

As for what you are missing, they are burst damage weapons not dps like a lmg/ar/smg/etc

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 04:10 AM
I dont even use cloak and I have a sawed off that is still a guarantee 1hit at close range in pvp.

People seem to conveniently forget that that's the reason for the existence of sawed-off shotguns.

Insanityplea
04-11-2013, 04:21 AM
I use a sawed-off...first time I tried one I was like "This gun sucks." Then leveled my pump shotty and only had a sawed on me during a hellbug mission, so equipped it and ripped apart like 12 skitterlings in 1 shot...I was sold :o

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-11-2013, 04:52 AM
They could definitely use a damage boost, or a rate of fire increase. I'd prefer a damage boost in keeping with the theme of the weapon class.

Worst is when you play Co-Op missions where the number of players increase the health of the mobs.

Insanityplea
04-11-2013, 04:58 AM
mm i think sawed-off honestly do more dmg than they need in pve atm anyways. 5 people at hellbug arkfall and i can still 1shot archers with mine.

Zacharyne
04-11-2013, 05:01 AM
Okay, maybe I'm playing a different game here...

I currently have a pump action shotgun and a sawn-off at roughly the same ego level. They do almost exactly the same damage per shot. The difference is that I can fire the pump-action 15 times in rapid succession and almost reload it FASTER after the ammo expires.

How does this factor in for weapon balance?

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 05:04 AM
Okay, maybe I'm playing a different game here...

I currently have a pump action shotgun and a sawn-off at roughly the same ego level. They do almost exactly the same damage per shot. The difference is that I can fire the pump-action 15 times in rapid succession and almost reload it FASTER after the ammo expires.

How does this factor in for weapon balance?
I one-shot tankers with my sawed-off when thy lift their helmets.

Zacharyne
04-11-2013, 05:12 AM
I one-shot tankers with my sawed-off when thy lift their helmets.

Maybe I need to spend more time with the game. I'm only around 200-something EGO.

Do the weapon roles become more distinct at the later stages?

Karzak
04-11-2013, 05:16 AM
I one-shot tankers with my sawed-off when thy lift their helmets.

cluster grenade launcher
booom
reload
boom

tanker dead ;)

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 05:21 AM
Maybe I need to spend more time with the game. I'm only around 200-something EGO.

Do the weapon roles become more distinct at the later stages?

Granted, I speced around doing this, but I had a shotgun that dealt 250 x 12 damage. That gets doubled because it fires 2 shots at once. The shotgun I used was lvl 150 or so. Right now I am lvl 826 and respeced a whole bunch of time and I must say that anything is powerful if you build around it but nothing beats a sawed-off in burst damage.

Shima
04-11-2013, 05:58 AM
Maybe I need to spend more time with the game. I'm only around 200-something EGO.

Do the weapon roles become more distinct at the later stages?

They do if you build towards them. Like I'm built entirely around crit damage since I snipe more often than not. Most of my perks are completely useless for full auto non-precision damage.

Zacharyne
04-11-2013, 06:02 AM
Thanks for the input guys.

The main reason I'm asking is that I have an idea for a build that requires a high burst weapon, and I was hoping sawn-off was it.

BrackenEU
04-11-2013, 08:19 AM
Granted, I speced around doing this, but I had a shotgun that dealt 250 x 12 damage. That gets doubled because it fires 2 shots at once. The shotgun I used was lvl 150 or so. Right now I am lvl 826 and respeced a whole bunch of time and I must say that anything is powerful if you build around it but nothing beats a sawed-off in burst damage.

Where the hell did you get one with 250x12?! cause ive not seen one with that power? which model was it? the VOT Auto Fragger? cause i want :p

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 08:31 AM
Where the hell did you get one with 250x12?! cause ive not seen one with that power? which model was it? the VOT Auto Fragger? cause i want :p

I lost that shotgun a long time ago, but it was a VOT sawed-off model. I only found 2 of them and I'm lvl 826 now.

cfStatic
04-11-2013, 08:43 AM
Uh no it won't. Shotguns are still perfectly fine in PvE and to be honest the nerf is required as I've been on both ends of the shotgun while doing this, so I understand it's very OP and very annoying. This is no way will affect PvE, so don't worry.

Then you know unless they nerf the damage down to like 1000(down from almost 1900ish) it's not going to have any effect. Just equip Sucker Punch as well and keep on 1 shotting people in PVP.

Uttrik
04-11-2013, 09:18 AM
Where the hell did you get one with 250x12?! cause ive not seen one with that power? which model was it? the VOT Auto Fragger? cause i want :p

The VOT Nano Fragger is 240x12. It shoots in a line pattern like the heavy pump shotguns. Probably my favorite burst weapon. Shoot-overload-shoot ends just about any enemy, including the super elites.

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 09:29 AM
The VOT Nano Fragger is 240x12.

That's it. I lost the weapon so I couldn't look up the stats.

Migrayne
04-11-2013, 09:46 AM
The VOT Nano Fragger is 240x12. It shoots in a line pattern like the heavy pump shotguns. Probably my favorite burst weapon. Shoot-overload-shoot ends just about any enemy, including the super elites.

My first thought on that nano fragger is the flat line would spread the shot out to the point it would not be good for one target only aoe. Do all 12 hit the target.in front of you or does it spread a lot?

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 09:51 AM
My first thought on that nano fragger is the flat line would spread the shot out to the point it would not be good for one target only aoe. Do all 12 hit the target.in front of you or does it spread a lot?

It shoots 24 since it blasts 2 bullets at once. Iirc, it has default accuracy of 10 and it is just the right amount to hit multiple enemies as well as get all the shots in closer up. A real beast.

Saraya
04-11-2013, 09:57 AM
Okay, so I tried one of these and I now have a pressing question:

You only have one or two shots and it takes ages to reload. The damage output is laughable compared to any other shotgun, or perhaps any other weapon when you factor in the load times. I also see that the damage is to be nerfed in the coming patch.

So, the resulting question, what the hell am I missing with this weapon type?

Generally sawed off shotguns are not that much more potent than a standard barrel. People saw the end off in order to make the weapon smaller to conceal it.

However for the purpose of this game, I cannot see why they bothered and you get this impression that a low capacity/long reload weapon would have high damage output.

Uttrik
04-11-2013, 10:10 AM
Generally sawed off shotguns are not that much more potent than a standard barrel. People saw the end off in order to make the weapon smaller to conceal it.

However for the purpose of this game, I cannot see why they bothered and you get this impression that a low capacity/long reload weapon would have high damage output.

They do have a high damage output. The best normal pump shotgun is probably the Heavy Scattergun, and it's 160x12 (8?). The Heavy Sawed-Off is 1900x2 and the Nano Fragger is 240x12x2. While they don't have close to the DPS of full auto weapons, they're still amazing burst on stronger enemies.

Uttrik
04-11-2013, 10:42 AM
My first thought on that nano fragger is the flat line would spread the shot out to the point it would not be good for one target only aoe. Do all 12 hit the target.in front of you or does it spread a lot?

What Rhorge said. I don't really use it to AOE. Get close and everything hits. You're pretty much guaranteed that whatever you're shooting at is going to die, so you don't have to worry about getting shot back. If there are multiple enemies standing close together, it will most likely kill them all. Just sprint from enemy to enemy while using cover to mitigate damage. A Respark type shield helps as well.

It's a more fun style of play for me than sitting crouched, pew pewing with a rifle.

Rhorge
04-11-2013, 10:59 AM
It's a more fun style of play for me than sitting crouched, pew pewing with a rifle.

I had to switch out for a frontier SAW once I hit San Fran. Just too many powerful enemies at once. Now that I got better at the game I'm getting back into shotguns.

cstate
04-11-2013, 02:42 PM
sawed-offs are my gloves-off go-to option for all PvE content outside of arkfalls and has been since I manhandled nim with one without a single scratch. coop charts top dmg 80% of the time (usually quite close in 1m+ situations as I don't switch to ranged fire as often as situations warrant), darkmatter is superfun, I can't remember the last time I had to extract, etc. some observations:

A single trigger pull of a nano fragger delivers more than 4x the damage potential of its pump equivalent grind fragger and reloads both expended shells in slightly less time than it takes for said grind fragger to manually reload four shells for the equivalent delivered damage.

each opportunity to pull the trigger also represents a period of time where you must be exposed to enemy fire. with a saw-off that period of time is necessarily cut very short. you aren't meant to just stand there like a doofus while you reload, or hoping to get in a one-shot. get to cover, circle around, advance on the next target, recloak. the more I've used used sawed-offs the more I've found that getting the killing blow is just icing compared to being able to constantly reposition yourself for the next big shot. as long as you've hit something, you can be confident you've done more than your share of damage or that whatever it is you shot isn't going to last much longer and you're already long out of their sights.

I usually stick with nano fraggers but the picture for frc variants is similar except the frc sawed-offs trade the 8 extra pellets per trigger pull for improved reload speed and tigher spread, and its pump variant similarly trades rate of fire for faster reload. less burst, better sustain either way. The regular VBI variants aren't worth mentioning because they are terrible.

The result is still that unless you tend to stand still out in the open eating bullets while you reload, sawed-offs allow you to deliver more damage more safely than their pump equivalent. the drawback being that a trigger pull is very much an all-in and can be more wasteful if you miss or overkill a target.

This does not take into account synergies with cloak, as the sawed-offs are able to take full advantage of the shadowed strike damage bonus to deliver as much every shot as a fully upgraded overcharge, not to mention full reload bonus proccing that can significantly boost cooldowns and ego duration.

For blur, pump may be a more optimal choice as it's easier to get in melee hits in between reloading shells than it is for a full sawed-off reload.