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PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:02 AM
I'm starting this thread, because I see something starting with this latest batch of patch notes that Sledgehammer posted that bothers me:

First off, what doesn't bother me is all the bug fixes. Thats a LOT of bugs, and thankfully most of them are small, but it's good to see them fixed.

What *DOES* bother me is the rampant use of the nerf-bat on just about every weapon out there. LMG's are taking a hit, sawed off shotguns are taking a hit, grenade launchers are taking a hit, rocket launchers (already underpowered for many versions) are taking a hit, and INFECTORS are taking a hit.

Now, on the surface, this may seen ok to some people, but to me, it's totally the opposite. These changes really do nothing more than NERF the PvE players and favor the PvP crowds constant complaints on the forums and in game.

Devs.. is this REALLY the way we want Defiance to go from the start? Do we REALLY want this game to be nothing more than a console-ported-PvP extravaganza?

Now mind you all, I don't partake in PvP.. it's not my cup of tea. And I sure don't mind that other people do. However, when the complaints of the PvP crowd (most of which, sorry to say, are UNFOUNDED) start to affect the playability of the PvE and RPG-based players, then there's a problem with the way things are being developed. Sorry to say it, but it's true. Now do I feel for those of you who are getting one shotted in the back by someone with a tweaked out sawed off and cloak? Nope.. sure don't. You decided to play PvP, deal with it. Learn to beat it. Take the EGO powers that limit damage from behind AND the others that reveal cloaked players. Do I feel bad for you because some uber-noob with a rocket launcher and a penchant for bunny hopping keeps swatting you down like the little insignificant bug? Nope.. sure don't.. learn his patterns, learn to run and gun, and pwn his backside like the nooblet he is.

If these "balances" in PvP are going to become the issue in this game, to the point that the Dev's are going to constantly Nerf PvE players, then this game is going to rapidly become a wasteland instead of a success. We have seen this happen previously in other games, and we've seen the results. Personally, this is not something I want to see happen in Defiance.

The Devs need to take note of this, and there have been on other threads, a multiple litany of ways to address this problem, including making weapons specifically for pvp, which would address the PvP balance vs PvE balance issue entirely.

What are your thoughts....?

jvp
04-11-2013, 10:09 AM
Having the same ruleset for both PvE and PvP is a disaster waiting to happen. In a perfect PvP environment, everyone has the exact same weapons, equipment, health, etc. Using those same rules in PvE can make for a boring game, and removes potential for character progress. The better solution would be to create static gun loadouts for people in PvP.

I can only speak for myself, but I bought this game for PvE. If I wanted a large scale PvP fest, I'd be playing Planetside still. If I wanted fast action 6v6 deathmatch, I'd already be playing one of the other thousand FPS/TPS games already out on the market.

I'm hoping this isn't a sign to come. I'm hoping that the PvE 'fun' side of things won't be hamstrung by how closely balanced the devs are going to make the PvP side of the game.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 10:15 AM
I made a thread about the whole seperate pvp and pve weapin stats and just destroyed. So i agree with OP on that matter, but as for your opinion on pvp and how weapons feel, your opinion was completely invalidated by the FACT that you stated you DO NOT play pvp sooooo yeaa. I do agree that the nerf is way too much.

mcwjimbo
04-11-2013, 10:15 AM
history has shown that games that start gearing more towards PVP over PVE = die

Fizzywinks
04-11-2013, 10:16 AM
Probably the only thing that can kill this game off in a couple of months. Balancing it for PVP.
And even if they do, the PVP is still very mediocre at best. Even after the nerf, the most efficient way to go about things is cloak/blur + shotgun. That is not going to change. It is just spectacularly dull. There might be some hope for Shadow Wars. It has the potential to be fun. I wish they had focused on it more rather than the generic nonsense that we got.

Balancing your PVE loot fest of a game over PVP is a series of terribly stupid ideas and I got a bad feeling the Devs are going to go ahead in some sort of deluded attempt to think they can get a slice of the pie from the market, especially the console side.

Era
04-11-2013, 10:16 AM
You realize that Shadow Wars takes place on the world map and you HAVE to balance the game for both PvP and PvE simultaneously, right?

Conflict
04-11-2013, 10:19 AM
I'd agree with you if we had the numbers to back it, but I don't so I'm going to assume the damage was too high all around on Sawed Offs and the LMG needed tweaking.

Not to mention it's Day 9 of the game. Give it a month before you claim the direction of the game.

Pasha
04-11-2013, 10:20 AM
I see there is yet another futile PvP "balance" attempt.

If PvP will be removed tomorrow - I won't notice the difference because I don't play it. When weapons will be nerfed further - I'll quit because I already cannot finish any "kill boss in under X minutes" co-op achievements and barely can do quests solo.

Probably that was main idea - to force players to leave in 2 weeks for the sake of saving server resources for new wave of customers.

SensaiDoom
04-11-2013, 10:21 AM
"I don't play PvP, but I can say that all the PvP complaints are UNFOUNDED"

To paraphrase the OP ^

Olcsonn
04-11-2013, 10:29 AM
I have to agree that the bug fixes were massive, and I have rarely seen bug fixes of that size from any game. I have to give Trion a cyber high-five for that massive fix. I also have to hope and pray that the weapon balances come from a shortage of time and Trion will do it correctly in the future.
:cool:
With all of that said, I have said the same thing about a lot of games that do this. I am not sure why PvP always seems to steal the attention, maybe PvPers are just bigger whiners or something else. If a game is going to have separate PvP and PvE systems then they need to separate them completely and call it a day. There needs to be changes to how a weapon works PvP and how that same can work PvE, a weapon that is very useful in PvE gets nerfed because of the PvP QQers can make that weapon completely useless in PvE, and in my opinion that is just wrong. If you look at games like Warhammer Online that game was almost purely focused on PvP so it made it easier for them to keep gear in check and balance; however, this is not WAR and the PvP and PvE system are kept separate so the balancing should be kept separate.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:29 AM
@Armed - No.. my point about weapons damage in PvP is based on the numerous complaint posts on these forums from PvP players. Just because I don't PvP doesn't mean I don't READ about it :)

@Conflict - perhaps I said it wrong so that it was easily misconstrued, but I'm not saying this *IS* the direction of the game now, I'm stating that it SHOULD NOT be the direction of the game in the future or with early updates.

@Era - Yup, and I've only seen Shadow War happen once, but didn't join in. Nor did I actually SEE anyone fighting, although I heard a lot of cheers and jeers in the chat box after it was done.

I honestly think the only real way to balance this game (or most others for that matter) is a system I've seen used before where items have two sets of stats.. one for PvE, the other for PvP. It brings balance, and gives more look to find, buy, or trade for with other players. This works really well with an auction house environment (that we're now seeing on the forums instead of in game).

Fizzywinks
04-11-2013, 10:30 AM
You realize that Shadow Wars takes place on the world map and you HAVE to balance the game for both PvP and PvE simultaneously, right?


No game has ever been balanced for both PvE and PvP. It won't happen, especially in a loot based game where drops and variables are mostly random. If PvP was to happen, they need an entirely different ruleset altogether. They can waste all their time and resources, it won't happen.

The only reason why Shadow War has the potential is precisely because the very constraints put on by the competitive maps are entirely dissolved. So much more strategies and mods of gameplay open up. Will it be balanced? No. Never will.

But it will definitely be a strong card to play than some generic 8v8 map where strategies are so very limited.

Conflict
04-11-2013, 10:30 AM
I see there is yet another futile PvP "balance" attempt.

If PvP will be removed tomorrow - I won't notice the difference because I don't play it. When weapons will be nerfed further - I'll quit because I already cannot finish any "kill boss in under X minutes" co-op achievements and barely can do quests solo.

Probably that was main idea - to force players to leave in 2 weeks for the sake of saving server resources for new wave of customers.

Then on to the next game that Massively covers which you'll preach for 2 weeks, then hate?

Olcsonn
04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
I see there is yet another futile PvP "balance" attempt.

If PvP will be removed tomorrow - I won't notice the difference because I don't play it. When weapons will be nerfed further - I'll quit because I already cannot finish any "kill boss in under X minutes" co-op achievements and barely can do quests solo.

Probably that was main idea - to force players to leave in 2 weeks for the sake of saving server resources for new wave of customers.

Pasha All I have read on these forums from you is about how you are going to quit... Just do it and save us the time of reading your narcissistic b!tching.

Conflict
04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
@Armed - No.. my point about weapons damage in PvP is based on the numerous complaint posts on these forums from PvP players. Just because I don't PvP doesn't mean I don't READ about it :)

@Conflict - perhaps I said it wrong so that it was easily misconstrued, but I'm not saying this *IS* the direction of the game now, I'm stating that it SHOULD NOT be the direction of the game in the future or with early updates.

@Era - Yup, and I've only seen Shadow War happen once, but didn't join in. Nor did I actually SEE anyone fighting, although I heard a lot of cheers and jeers in the chat box after it was done.

I honestly think the only real way to balance this game (or most others for that matter) is a system I've seen used before where items have two sets of stats.. one for PvE, the other for PvP. It brings balance, and gives more look to find, buy, or trade for with other players. This works really well with an auction house environment (that we're now seeing on the forums instead of in game).

You are aware there is a change to Pistols in the patch notes that is PVP only right?

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:33 AM
I'm going to expand on something I said in the OP:

I stated that your PvP complaints are UNFOUNDED.

I stated this for a very simple reason:

NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PVP. You do so at your own desire/wish/whatnot, and you do so knowing that your going to have to deal with backshots, bunny hoppers, cloaked opponents, and the list goes on and on. YOU CHOOSE to PvP. By making that CHOICE, your affecting your own experience and your own community involvement.

That is why, in my honest opinion, any PvP complaints about weapons is UNFOUNDED. Learn the tactics.. learn the ego system and what works.. then out of pwn the noobs who love to bunnyhop or whatnot.. and while your doing all that, learn to NOT COMPLAIN.. YOU CHOSE to do PvP.. no one made you.

omega32x
04-11-2013, 10:33 AM
Instead of nerfing the overall damage of viable and good weapons why not just up the damage of weapons that need it? Nerfing the damage of weapon types is only going to make it harder in the long run especially if they up the damage of progression content. Nobody wants to play a game with gimped weapons.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:35 AM
@Conflict - yep, I read that as well. I've also read that for some pistols (not the flare gun), that the weapons clip is limited to ONE ROUND. Frankly, yeah.. that one I can agree wholeheartedly needs to be changed. By doing such a nerf on a specific weapon, the devs have made that weapon pretty much useless.

Conflict
04-11-2013, 10:37 AM
I'm going to expand on something I said in the OP:

I stated that your PvP complaints are UNFOUNDED.

I stated this for a very simple reason:

NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PVP. You do so at your own desire/wish/whatnot, and you do so knowing that your going to have to deal with backshots, bunny hoppers, cloaked opponents, and the list goes on and on. YOU CHOOSE to PvP. By making that CHOICE, your affecting your own experience and your own community involvement.

That is why, in my honest opinion, any PvP complaints about weapons is UNFOUNDED. Learn the tactics.. learn the ego system and what works.. then out of pwn the noobs who love to bunnyhop or whatnot.. and while your doing all that, learn to NOT COMPLAIN.. YOU CHOSE to do PvP.. no one made you.

Ladies and gentlemen.

I present to you the mentality that destroyed World of Warcraft above.

Bask in it's "self absorbed, logically flawed, poorly structured argument" glory.

omega32x
04-11-2013, 10:38 AM
Ladies and gentlemen. I present to you the mentality that destroyed World of Warcraft above. Bask in it's "self absorbed, logically flawed, poorly structured argument" glory.

Wow is still alive and thriving despite how horrible you claim it is lmao

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 10:40 AM
I'm going to expand on something I said in the OP:

I stated that your PvP complaints are UNFOUNDED.

I stated this for a very simple reason:

NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PVP. You do so at your own desire/wish/whatnot, and you do so knowing that your going to have to deal with backshots, bunny hoppers, cloaked opponents, and the list goes on and on. YOU CHOOSE to PvP. By making that CHOICE, your affecting your own experience and your own community involvement.

That is why, in my honest opinion, any PvP complaints about weapons is UNFOUNDED. Learn the tactics.. learn the ego system and what works.. then out of pwn the noobs who love to bunnyhop or whatnot.. and while your doing all that, learn to NOT COMPLAIN.. YOU CHOSE to do PvP.. no one made you.

Alright, so by that logic, all your pve complaints are unfounded as well? I mean you CHOOSE to PVE.NO ONE FORCES YOU RIGHT?
Reading about problems dosent do anything. You need to experience them yourself before you go around trying to invalidate someone elses opinion before they even say anything.
Btw I totally agree with your seperate stats thing.

Playt99
04-11-2013, 10:40 AM
I have played PVP before not really my thing, instead of limiting PVE player like me why don't they open a PVP server for those who want to play. Makes only sense to me plus I don't want weaker weapons the system is messed up enough as it is ( If you use your weapon it upgrades but then you have to stop using it cause you don't get any more XP)

Olcsonn
04-11-2013, 10:42 AM
You are aware there is a change to Pistols in the patch notes that is PVP only right?

Conflict I understand what OP is saying, but one weapon change that is PvP only and nerfing a good chunk of the others is kind of like kissing you on the cheek and then smashing your thumb with a hammer. When you start screaming about the busted thumb I look at you and say "I kissed you on the cheek" get my point?

PseudoCool I do and do not agree with the PvP complaints. Yes it is completely voluntary, but it is still a part of the game and therefore should be taken serious. Should they learn the tactics, yes, should they learn the EGO system, yes, and should they learn what works and doesn't, well duh; however, if the system is completely off then yes they should fix it. With that said they should not hurt PvE just to cater to the PvP who overly QQ. I play both, of course I lean more towards PvE, but I do play PvE and the shotgun in PvP was tough to play against (of course I just went out and got a great shotgun for myself), but in PvE I find the shotgun very situational at best for my play style, but that does not mean that others did not use it and enjoy it in PvE. By nerfing it on both the PvE and PvP sides of the game you may have killed that weapon system for one group of players to cater to the QQing, Trolling, and just plain out b!tching of another group of players. (using the shotgun as an examples to represent all of the nerfs.)

omega32x
04-11-2013, 10:46 AM
I have played PVP before not really my thing, instead of limiting PVE player like me why don't they open a PVP server for those who want to play. Makes only sense to me plus I don't want weaker weapons the system is messed up enough as it is ( If you use your weapon it upgrades but then you have to stop using it cause you don't get any more XP)

Well the thing is its not quite like world of warcraft or rift where you choose a server type and are forced to fight in it. There is no world pvp unless you specifically go to the shadow wars area or click on a pvp instance to fight in. The world is not forcing you to pvp 24/7 atm. So having separate servers would be kind of silly.

As i stated in this post earlier instead of NERFING weapons why not just raise the ones that need it to meet the damage out put others do?

Conflict
04-11-2013, 10:46 AM
Conflict I understand what OP is saying, but one weapon change that is PvP only and nerfing a good chunk of the others is kind of like kissing you on the cheek and then smashing your thumb with a hammer. When you start screaming about the busted thumb I look at you and say "I kissed you on the cheek" get my point?

My point was simply this: If one weapon was changed for PVP, and 2 others were changed all around, logically one would assume that the numbers for the 2 other weapons in BOTH PVE and PVP were too high and/or needed tweaking.

Instead people are going into a frothing rage that PVP is affecting this game. If that was the case, I'd guess the developers would have changed ALL the weapons for PVP only, similarly to the Pistol change.



As i stated in this post earlier instead of NERFING weapons why not just raise the ones that need it to meet the damage out put others do?

Because then developers have to raise mob health, then boss health, then "Destroy objective" health, then arkfall crystals health.

Instead, you nerf the few things that are too high in damage, and leave the rest alone. Which alots time to fix/add other things. Work smarter, not harder.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:48 AM
ok.. response time -

@Armed - check EVERY POST I've ever made on these forums. You won't find a SINGLE ONE with a complaint about PvE.. not the damage, not the vehicles, not the enemies.. nada. Why? Because I love PvE, and I enjoy the challenges I provide myself (like solo-ing minor arkfalls or taking on MASSIVE mobs of enemies).. So sure.. you can have that point, but it's pretty invalid in my case. Now, that being said, there ARE a lot of posts about PvE balance, mobs, aggro.. etc etc.. and guess what.. I tell them the same thing. Learning to play the game based on situations is a huge help.

@Conflict - Hate to be the bearer of bad news here sport.. but WoW was destroyed from the get go. It wasn't that it was a bad game, and it wasn't that it had bad servers, lack of contect, etc etc.. what destroyed WoW from opening day.. was the lack of community. EVERYONE complained about everything. Everyone thought the whole thing should be open PvP.. and EVERYONE did nothing to help each other out. And my "feeling" about WoW is NOT a feeling.. I alpha and beta tested WoW, and played for the first few months of it's launch, so it's a REAL mentality that I'm speaking of. However, thinking that another persons views on your mindset, which is obviously "it's all about PvP", are wrong because they don't match with yours is exactly what's wrong with a whole other slew of things in society today that have nothing to do with any video game. Now, that being said.. I will continue to bask in my mentality, because it's the RIGHT ONE per MY VIEWS. I encourage you to do the same and continue down your own path. I don't want you to be a clone of me, or even agree with my views.. but if your doing to DISAGREE and claim it's an issue of mentality or intellect or whatnot, how about you exercise your fingers and follow the OP, and give an IDEA how to address this problem NOW, before it becomes a huge issue. You *CAN* do that right?

Carlos Mastermind
04-11-2013, 10:51 AM
Really? I thought this would favor PvE more in terms of challenge. I along with many others sped through PvE missions, though I read some people got stuck at certain bosses. I kind of want to get stuck at a boss for once instead of easily beating them the first time. All they did is nerf all the hard hitting weapons so you don't instantly kill. Instead of running around with a shotgun and super shields, maybe I will get a chance to actually use strategy, but not because I want to because we will all be forced to. The only thing that keeps a game going is the challenge.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 10:51 AM
ok.. response time -

@Armed - check EVERY POST I've ever made on these forums. You won't find a SINGLE ONE with a complaint about PvE.. not the damage, not the vehicles, not the enemies.. nada. Why? Because I love PvE, and I enjoy the challenges I provide myself (like solo-ing minor arkfalls or taking on MASSIVE mobs of enemies).. So sure.. you can have that point, but it's pretty invalid in my case. Now, that being said, there ARE a lot of posts about PvE balance, mobs, aggro.. etc etc.. and guess what.. I tell them the same thing. Learning to play the game based on situations is a huge help.

Well then its just that whole "Learn to play" BS. How bout you learn to play with the weapons after they got nerfed?
Every point your making is countered by the exact same answer but in a pvp sense.
Also, what if somebody loves pvp? And how can my point invalid to you? Yours is just as invalid because its the same argument.

omega32x
04-11-2013, 10:55 AM
"Hate to be the bearer of bad news here sport.. but WoW was destroyed from the get go. It wasn't that it was a bad game, and it wasn't that it had bad servers, lack of contect, etc etc.. what destroyed WoW from opening day.. was the lack of community. EVERYONE complained about everything."

What? Games still alive and kicking lol. Infact im playing right now. I see no lack of community lmao. Maybe on opening day but its fine as fare as i can tell lol.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 10:57 AM
@Armed - the problem is that these weapons nerfs are coming about BECAUSE of PvP complaints. There are well over 100 posts on just the general forums alone about specific weapons being too "over powered".. and not one of them is from PvE, their all from PvP. Not every player is an "elite".. hell. when it comes to shooters, even I'm not an elite. But I don't COMPLAIN about a weapon being too overpowered or underpowered.. I learn to play and learn which mobs a specific weapon works best for, and which ones it doesn't. I like digging into the meat and potatoes underbones of a game's mechanics and really tweaking my character and playstyle to match with what works for me.

But that's the issue here - we're taking nerfs at day 9 for the sake of PvP and based on PvP complaints. That is a slippery slope that we've all seen before in many different games, and we all have seen where it ends up.. a games rapid demise and death. This is history, and frankly, I love Defiance, and it's a history I don't want to see repeated here. That's why I think the community needs to man up and come up with SOLUTIONS to this issue of weapons in PvP before it turns into nothing more than a nerf-fest on every side of the battle to appease the "lowest common denominator" of player in PvP.

I welcome your thoughts on ways to address the balance of weapons between PvP and PvE.

Mr Marston
04-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Yes!!! Do NOT nerf these weapons for the co-op/open-shared-world modes, the advanced AI are already a little difficult while only having underpowered weapons to start off with, God knows how the hell we'll be horribly failing at this game with NERF'd and UNDERPOWERED weapons to start off with. Don't get me wrong, Trion has been working hard to keep this game in-shape, don't screw up now Trion!

Also does anybody know why that in the first patch notes topic of the "Patch Notes" section it says in the title at the end "Sharks - (in winter solstice)"? I hope that doesn't mean we'll have to wait 'till December for the first MAJOR update.

omega32x
04-11-2013, 11:05 AM
Yes!!! Do NOT nerf these weapons for the co-op/open-shared-world modes, the advanced AI are already a little difficult while only having underpowered weapons to start off with, God knows how the hell we'll be horribly failing at this game with NERF'd and UNDERPOWERED weapons to start off with. Don't get me wrong, Trion has been working hard to keep this game in-shape, don't screw up now Trion!

Also does anybody know why that in the first patch notes topic of the "Patch Notes" section it says in the title at the end "Sharks - (in winter solstice)"? I hope that doesn't mean we'll have to wait 'till December for the first MAJOR update.

I think they were probably just trying to come up with a name for the patch lol.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:13 AM
How about I try a different approach here..

Let's just break out the weapon I see complained about the most in PvP.. the sawed off shotgun.

I've got one, and I totally LOATHE it in PvE. And I'll tell you why -

Weapon stat says it's 1919 points of damage.. after firing BOTH shots, one immediately after the other.. with a 4 second reload.

Ok.. great right! Wrong.. in PvE, you pretty much have to get on top of an enemy to use it, and the reload is just as long as my LMG, which in the same 8 seconds does more than 3K damage with the occassional critical, and without unloading the entire magazine.

Further more.. IF you get cloaked and sneak up behind a bad guy, and let him have it in the back of the head with BOTH barrels, your lucky to see 600 points of damage total. I've done this repeatedly with Raider Blitzers, and gotten my backside handed to me on the reload by the one I shot. The damage potential, in PvE, for this specific weapon that's so often complained about in PvP, it's just not there.

So what does that tell you?

Does that tell you the weapon is OVER powered? Does it tell you the weapon is UNDER powered? Does it tell you that the NPC's have too much armor/defense? Does it tell you that players in PvP do NOT have enough shields/HP? Therein lies the problem with game balance for PvP vs PvE.. the current solution of nerfing weapons (either individual weapons or an entire class of them) based on EITHER SIDE of the dynamic isn't realistic. It's not FIXING anything, it's only putting a band aid on a bullet hole.

I'm all for game balance, and I'm for a decent challenge scale based on my ego level and team size. I'm not a PvP player, but frankly, I love watching it when 2 others go at it. Even then, I don't get into PvP zones because I tend to face plant A LOT. Not my cup of team honestly, and I know that. But that doesn't mean I'm immune to what's happening in PvP, nor ignorant of it.

I want game balance for everyone. In a game with BOTH PvP and PvE, there really isn't an easy way to come up with it. THAT is why, in the OP, I asked for your thoughts on how the dev's COULD respond to this need and keep that balance.

Conflict
04-11-2013, 11:13 AM
ok.. response time -

@Armed - check EVERY POST I've ever made on these forums. You won't find a SINGLE ONE with a complaint about PvE.. not the damage, not the vehicles, not the enemies.. nada. Why? Because I love PvE, and I enjoy the challenges I provide myself (like solo-ing minor arkfalls or taking on MASSIVE mobs of enemies).. So sure.. you can have that point, but it's pretty invalid in my case. Now, that being said, there ARE a lot of posts about PvE balance, mobs, aggro.. etc etc.. and guess what.. I tell them the same thing. Learning to play the game based on situations is a huge help.

@Conflict - Hate to be the bearer of bad news here sport.. but WoW was destroyed from the get go. It wasn't that it was a bad game, and it wasn't that it had bad servers, lack of contect, etc etc.. what destroyed WoW from opening day.. was the lack of community. EVERYONE complained about everything. Everyone thought the whole thing should be open PvP.. and EVERYONE did nothing to help each other out. And my "feeling" about WoW is NOT a feeling.. I alpha and beta tested WoW, and played for the first few months of it's launch, so it's a REAL mentality that I'm speaking of. However, thinking that another persons views on your mindset, which is obviously "it's all about PvP", are wrong because they don't match with yours is exactly what's wrong with a whole other slew of things in society today that have nothing to do with any video game. Now, that being said.. I will continue to bask in my mentality, because it's the RIGHT ONE per MY VIEWS. I encourage you to do the same and continue down your own path. I don't want you to be a clone of me, or even agree with my views.. but if your doing to DISAGREE and claim it's an issue of mentality or intellect or whatnot, how about you exercise your fingers and follow the OP, and give an IDEA how to address this problem NOW, before it becomes a huge issue. You *CAN* do that right?

I actually do both, PVE and PVP. I'm looking at it objectively and from both perspectives.

You telling people that PVP that their complaints are unfounded is the same as them telling you your complaints are unfounded. I also playing MMOs before WoW. The game was challenging, involved itself with risk vs reward, achievements felt like achievements, and an epic item was dropped by an epic boss with an epic fight.

The PVP didn't destroy WoW. The "me me me" mentality did. Everyone wanted something but didn't want to work for it. Now you have everyone clones of eachother, and the game resembles more of Carnival games than an actual MMO.

BaiorOfRed
04-11-2013, 11:14 AM
I hate the idea of separate balancing of damage and stats for weapons in PVP vs PVE. Separate balancing only makes sense when both are negatively influencing each other. Most of the time its the PVErs who think PVP is bad for the game never the reverse. I mean, have you ever met someone who was awesome at PVP and sucked at PVE?

Balancing separately increases the learning curve and makes PVP like an entirely separate game. Balancing weapons in PVP, in the long run, makes weapons more balanced in PVE in my opinion as PVP tends to push weapons to their limits way more than PVE ever could. Most of the time PVE players just don't think out how their weapon should be used and they don't really push to find out like PVPers.

Sawed off shotguns - People think they are worthless in PVE and so they shouldn't be nerfed right? Here's the thing, this is a superior weapon when dealing with individual targets. A situation that comes up much more rarely in PVE than in PVP. Having a sawed off in the secondary and using it, plus cloak, for big enemies or bosses is huge. So you can't take a sawed off shotgun and face-roll crowds of mobs, who cares?

LMGs - I am not sure about the vague tweaks to improve the other LMGs, which are downright awful in both PVP and PVE, but the SAW is a potent weapon all around. I am not surprised about the rate of fire thing.

Detonators - A gun that allows you to do AOE damage will always be useful in crowds, especially one you really don't need a lot of aiming to use effectively. This is the opposite problem from the sawed off. People think they aren't very effective because they can't smash monarchs or other big enemies/bosses to pieces with it.

The only thing that baffles me are the infectors. Sure, I have died to a few in PVP but not all that often and in PVE they seemed decent but not really OP.

Edit: Also, commenting on the balancing act between PVP and PVE from only one perspective (PVE) is limiting. Keep in mind, all PVP players who want changes also HAVE to play PVE to at least some extent. So, not like we are trying to break that aspect of the game.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:19 AM
@ Conflict - Same thing I told Armed... Your more than welcome to tell me my complaints are unfounded.. but then I challenge you to find a time I've complained on these forums. Oh wait.. that's right.. there isn't a single instance where I've said "Oh god, this weapon is shtako!" or "Oh god, can someone please turn down the difficulty on x-mob or x-boss". Its not there because I don't complain about it.. I look at it as a challenge and go after it.

Now.. are there people who complain about stuff in PvE.. sure are. But here's the thing: That list of nerfs that just got posted.. that's the bee-knees-who's-what's of pvP complaints on these forums, and even back in the beta forums. Those nerfs *may* balance out PvP, but it's not going to do anything for PvE at all, other than make every mission a huge challenge. Challenge is good, but NOT at the expense of game balance, which is exactly what nerfing weapons for one side of the coin's complaints is doing.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:20 AM
How about I try a different approach here..

Let's just break out the weapon I see complained about the most in PvP.. the sawed off shotgun.

I've got one, and I totally LOATHE it in PvE. And I'll tell you why -

Weapon stat says it's 1919 points of damage.. after firing BOTH shots, one immediately after the other.. with a 4 second reload.

Ok.. great right! Wrong.. in PvE, you pretty much have to get on top of an enemy to use it, and the reload is just as long as my LMG, which in the same 8 seconds does more than 3K damage with the occassional critical, and without unloading the entire magazine.

Further more.. IF you get cloaked and sneak up behind a bad guy, and let him have it in the back of the head with BOTH barrels, your lucky to see 600 points of damage total. I've done this repeatedly with Raider Blitzers, and gotten my backside handed to me on the reload by the one I shot. The damage potential, in PvE, for this specific weapon that's so often complained about in PvP, it's just not there.

So what does that tell you?

Does that tell you the weapon is OVER powered? Does it tell you the weapon is UNDER powered? Does it tell you that the NPC's have too much armor/defense? Does it tell you that players in PvP do NOT have enough shields/HP? Therein lies the problem with game balance for PvP vs PvE.. the current solution of nerfing weapons (either individual weapons or an entire class of them) based on EITHER SIDE of the dynamic isn't realistic. It's not FIXING anything, it's only putting a band aid on a bullet hole.

I'm all for game balance, and I'm for a decent challenge scale based on my ego level and team size. I'm not a PvP player, but frankly, I love watching it when 2 others go at it. Even then, I don't get into PvP zones because I tend to face plant A LOT. Not my cup of team honestly, and I know that. But that doesn't mean I'm immune to what's happening in PvP, nor ignorant of it.

I want game balance for everyone. In a game with BOTH PvP and PvE, there really isn't an easy way to come up with it. THAT is why, in the OP, I asked for your thoughts on how the dev's COULD respond to this need and keep that balance.

The thing about that is weapons all their strengths and weaknesses. Some more than others. Lmgs are amazing in pve for a long clip,whereas in pvp not so much because of a long as reload and low movement accuracy.
Sawed are amazing in pvp simply for such a high damage output, whereas in pve as u clearly stated are completely useless and out of place. So this is where pvp/pve seperate stats would come in handy once again. I dont see why they cant do that rather dropping the nerf hammer all the time. its so frustrating.

Schiefer
04-11-2013, 11:21 AM
I'm going to expand on something I said in the OP:

I stated that your PvP complaints are UNFOUNDED.

I stated this for a very simple reason:

NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PVP. You do so at your own desire/wish/whatnot, and you do so knowing that your going to have to deal with backshots, bunny hoppers, cloaked opponents, and the list goes on and on. YOU CHOOSE to PvP. By making that CHOICE, your affecting your own experience and your own community involvement.

That is why, in my honest opinion, any PvP complaints about weapons is UNFOUNDED. Learn the tactics.. learn the ego system and what works.. then out of pwn the noobs who love to bunnyhop or whatnot.. and while your doing all that, learn to NOT COMPLAIN.. YOU CHOSE to do PvP.. no one made you.

O so PvP shouldn't ever need to be balanced guys, it's ok.
because me using a pump action shotgun needing to 5 hit an opponent who can switch to a sawed off and 1 hit me is ok, i'm just not skilled enough apparently.

We choose to PvP so it's ok if half of the weapons are capable of 1 hitting players and the other half need several more hits.

honestly why are people even complaining? it's PvE? is it really that hard for the community? lol. Way to many casuals playing video games anymore. Have any of you even played a MMO.

This is the equivalent of someone on WoW crying "why would you nerf my warlocks shadow bolt now how am i suppost to do 15k whole damage in a boss fight! just because i can hit 200k crits and 1 hit opponents it's not unfair! those people just are not skilled enough to kill me in 30 hits before i shoot off my 1 whole shadow bolt!"

This really smells of "FPS" gamer mentality, and clearly not a MMO mentality..

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:22 AM
@ Conflict - Same thing I told Armed... Your more than welcome to tell me my complaints are unfounded.. but then I challenge you to find a time I've complained on these forums. Oh wait.. that's right.. there isn't a single instance where I've said "Oh god, this weapon is shtako!" or "Oh god, can someone please turn down the difficulty on x-mob or x-boss". Its not there because I don't complain about it.. I look at it as a challenge and go after it.

Theres no need to do that, your just one of the few who actually adapt and play the game. Thats what they wanted you to do. Thats why there is no "class" system. RESPEC! thats why its there!

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:23 AM
O so PvP shouldn't ever need to be balanced guys, it's ok.
because me using a pump action shotgun needing to 5 hit an opponent who can switch to a sawed off and 1 hit me is ok, i'm just not skilled enough apparently.

We choose to PvP so it's ok if half of the weapons are capable of 1 hitting players and the other half need several more hits.

Half the weapons one shot? Really?

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:26 AM
@Scheifer -

Well no.. infact you should have read the whole thread before posting. I've been an MMO player since, well probably since before most of the current WoW crowd where born. WoW wasn't my first rodeo at alpha/beta testing MMO's, and frankly wasn't my worst.

However.. the mentality I'm presenting here is NOT a "FPS vs MMO" mentality. It's a PvE vs PvP mentality. I don't PvP, and frankly, I hate seeing the nerf-bat swinging in ANY GAME, at Day 9 post launch, and that wouldn't matter if it was against PvP or against PvE.. 9 days in and swinging the nerf bat is NOT a good sign IMO.

A couple of us here agree in having seperate PvP/PvE stats for weapons as a way to have the balance needed. It'd be easier than starting whole servers for specific PvP or PvE environments, and it would make a whole new class of weapons to work with. The idea of the OP.. was to get SOLUTIONS that can be presented to the Dev's INSTEAD of the nerf-bat for balancing, which swings those scales towards the sloped side of PvP.

Schiefer
04-11-2013, 11:28 AM
Half the weapons one shot? Really?

it's clearly an over exaggeration to express a valid point -_- but i forgot that you can't make statements on the internet without pointless remarks such as this back.

Myria
04-11-2013, 11:28 AM
Most of the time its the PVErs who think PVP is bad for the game never the reverse.

You must be kidding? I would suggest going to the Eve forums and trying to count the number of "Eliminate Hisec" threads -- it's well into the thousands. Or perhaps going to the MO or Darkfall forums and suggesting there be a PvE server. Or go to any forum where Camelot Unchained is being discussed (which, sadly, is about all of them) and suggesting the game will fail because it has no PvE.

I have never played an MMO, and I've played most of them, where PvPers didn't ***** endlessly about PvE.


I mean, have you ever met someone who was awesome at PVP and sucked at PVE?

More times than I can possibly count.

Sadly most of them were so convinced of their inherent superiority that they weren't even teachable. Convinced of their own awesomeness, they just kept doing the same damn stupid things over and over and over again.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:31 AM
it's clearly an over exaggeration to express a valid point -_- but i forgot that you can't make statements on the internet without pointless remarks such as this back.

Well when your attempting to get a valid point across, you really shouldnt exaggerate.
Also i can understand this, but half would imply a greater number than one. sooooooo ehhhh

Facade
04-11-2013, 11:31 AM
ok.. response time -



@Conflict - Hate to be the bearer of bad news here sport.. but WoW was destroyed from the get go.

The ****?
You lost me there.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:32 AM
@Armed - well yeah.. I am an odd bird when it comes to games. I like to break things down and really get into the numbers behind the mechanics. Heck, I've got a 3" thick binder FILLED with numbers notes from the 23 patches and updates to a game I played for 8 years just as a reference (even though the game isn't around anymore, I can't seem to pitch the 1000's of hours of work to put those numbers together). I'll be doing the same thing with Defiance. Doesn't matter to me that I just hot Rosa's story line and I'm only Ego 341 at day 9. I'm having fun, and gathering a TON of data that I'll be able to share with other people. But.. that's because I adapt and PLAY.. who cares about face planting? who cares if it takes me a dozen or so times to beat a boss? Who cares if I get swamped by mobs of Niner's on the docks that rapid shoot those friggin grenades where you have no room to escape? Heck.. not me.. I figure out how to win.. that's part of what a game challenge is supposed to be.

I also know.. there are people who don't want that challenge.. they are the more casual gamers, and I have always felt there should be a spot for them as well in any game.

So.. to recap from the OP and suggested solutions -

1. Different stats for weapons based on PvE or PvP environment (most preferred)
2. Different servers for PvP and PvE (least preferred IMHO)

Now.. does anyone else have something constructive to add or a possible solution that doesn't decry one side or the other, and doesn't include the lovely nerf bat? LOL

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:37 AM
@Facade -
Yup.. WoW was destroyed on Day 1. Why? Because the genius developers listened to EVERYTHING that every PvP tester told them and implemented it for launch. NOTHING that was suggested nor pointed out by the PvE crowd was implemented nor even taken into account.

To futher excaberate this problem, the community as a whole is shtako. There's no help for new players on most shards, there's no reference for people at all to follow (unless your coming it with someone who's ramping you into a guild on your first day).. and the entire thing is a gear grind.

So yeah.. WoW is NOT the game people claim it is.. it's nothing more than a sad time sink, when in reality, it could have been 100 times better (and probably 10 times MORE successful that it is) with better balance.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:37 AM
@Armed - well yeah.. I am an odd bird when it comes to games. I like to break things down and really get into the numbers behind the mechanics. Heck, I've got a 3" thick binder FILLED with numbers notes from the 23 patches and updates to a game I played for 8 years just as a reference (even though the game isn't around anymore, I can't seem to pitch the 1000's of hours of work to put those numbers together). I'll be doing the same thing with Defiance. Doesn't matter to me that I just hot Rosa's story line and I'm only Ego 341 at day 9. I'm having fun, and gathering a TON of data that I'll be able to share with other people. But.. that's because I adapt and PLAY.. who cares about face planting? who cares if it takes me a dozen or so times to beat a boss? Who cares if I get swamped by mobs of Niner's on the docks that rapid shoot those friggin grenades where you have no room to escape? Heck.. not me.. I figure out how to win.. that's part of what a game challenge is supposed to be.

I also know.. there are people who don't want that challenge.. they are the more casual gamers, and I have always felt there should be a spot for them as well in any game.

So.. to recap from the OP and suggested solutions -

1. Different stats for weapons based on PvE or PvP environment (most preferred)
2. Different servers for PvP and PvE (least preferred IMHO)

Now.. does anyone else have something constructive to add or a possible solution that doesn't decry one side or the other, and doesn't include the lovely nerf bat? LOL

Take that attitude into pvp and you could be a force to reckon with.
But anyway thats beside the point. lol
If could add me as a contact on here or a friend or whatever on here thatd be amazing, id love to know about your data collection stuff cause that sounds like an awesome idea.

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:40 AM
@Armed - done. Same name ingame if you want to add me there as well. I'll be glad to share my data mining when it get's to a shareable point. And.. having someone to test the PvP side out with could be rather fun.. and a lot better than trying to PvP with the main crowd in regards to data mining :)

Schiefer
04-11-2013, 11:42 AM
@Scheifer -

Well no.. infact you should have read the whole thread before posting. I've been an MMO player since, well probably since before most of the current WoW crowd where born. WoW wasn't my first rodeo at alpha/beta testing MMO's, and frankly wasn't my worst.

However.. the mentality I'm presenting here is NOT a "FPS vs MMO" mentality. It's a PvE vs PvP mentality. I don't PvP, and frankly, I hate seeing the nerf-bat swinging in ANY GAME, at Day 9 post launch, and that wouldn't matter if it was against PvP or against PvE.. 9 days in and swinging the nerf bat is NOT a good sign IMO.

A couple of us here agree in having seperate PvP/PvE stats for weapons as a way to have the balance needed. It'd be easier than starting whole servers for specific PvP or PvE environments, and it would make a whole new class of weapons to work with. The idea of the OP.. was to get SOLUTIONS that can be presented to the Dev's INSTEAD of the nerf-bat for balancing, which swings those scales towards the sloped side of PvP.

If you're as old as you claim to be in the MMO industry you should understand this is how it has always been implemented, I've been playing MMO's since EQ1 and runescape classic incase you were suggesting i started with WoW?.

to you're idea on splitting PvP and PvE weapons, how would this stop a company from nerfing the weapons? there still capable of making things to difficult or to easy with certain weapons. What i'm seeing as a suggestion basically is to give all weapons the same damage output for either PvE or PvP but give them a new skin? If so i fail to see how that is a viable solution for anything?

sorry i can't give examples on anything apparently because if i over exaggerate the community will begin to cry. So until i have exact numbers, see exact fractions of health loss on a character, and have it put into charts i'll refrain from giving examples.

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:43 AM
@Armed - done. Same name ingame if you want to add me there as well. I'll be glad to share my data mining when it get's to a shareable point. And.. having someone to test the PvP side out with could be rather fun.. and a lot better than trying to PvP with the main crowd in regards to data mining :)

PVP can get old waiting for the ques, but its usually fun. Are you on PS3?

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:48 AM
@Schiefer - Nice.. I played EQ1 and Runescape as well.. good games for their time.

And no.. we're not talking about a "new skin". I think the best way to put the damage modification for PvP vs PvE is simply a damage modifier for PvP. Make it a known modifier and part of the weapons statistics from the start. This has been done, quite successfully mind you, in many other games in the past, and didn't involve a nerf to either side of the scale. Granted, it DID take a bit of time to get balanced out, but that's still better than a nerf bat right from the start. This allows for the same weapon, in a game like Defiance, to gain XP, gain class skill XP, and be usable for both PvP and PvE without changing the way the weapon works, only adjusting the damage output in PvP zones. It's really a rather simple idea, and like I said, we've seen it work before on many games and platforms (City of Heroes, SWTOR, DCUO are current examples that use the system).

Now.. that being said.. I look forward to your examples.. just let us know where your "exaggerating" or whatnot.. hopefully however, with your level of game experience, the exaggerations will be limited in lieu of good honest data :)

PseudoCool
04-11-2013, 11:49 AM
@Armed - nope.. PC

armedpoop
04-11-2013, 11:51 AM
@Armed - nope.. PC

Lol but of course. Welp, ill just wait for your notes thing then.

Schiefer
04-11-2013, 12:02 PM
@Schiefer - Nice.. I played EQ1 and Runescape as well.. good games for their time.

And no.. we're not talking about a "new skin". I think the best way to put the damage modification for PvP vs PvE is simply a damage modifier for PvP. Make it a known modifier and part of the weapons statistics from the start. This has been done, quite successfully mind you, in many other games in the past, and didn't involve a nerf to either side of the scale. Granted, it DID take a bit of time to get balanced out, but that's still better than a nerf bat right from the start. This allows for the same weapon, in a game like Defiance, to gain XP, gain class skill XP, and be usable for both PvP and PvE without changing the way the weapon works, only adjusting the damage output in PvP zones. It's really a rather simple idea, and like I said, we've seen it work before on many games and platforms (City of Heroes, SWTOR, DCUO are current examples that use the system).

Now.. that being said.. I look forward to your examples.. just let us know where your "exaggerating" or whatnot.. hopefully however, with your level of game experience, the exaggerations will be limited in lieu of good honest data :)

ahhhh you see i agree with that idea being a good one. Mod's to make weapons better in PvP and without them there mediocre in PvP and good in PvE. Maybe incorporate some new stat such as "Resiliance" for a lack of a better word.

I thought you were just saying make x weapon PvP and x weapon PvE and if you want to use one for the other than to bad lol.

Conflict
04-11-2013, 01:07 PM
@Facade -
Yup.. WoW was destroyed on Day 1. Why? Because the genius developers listened to EVERYTHING that every PvP tester told them and implemented it for launch. NOTHING that was suggested nor pointed out by the PvE crowd was implemented nor even taken into account.

To futher excaberate this problem, the community as a whole is shtako. There's no help for new players on most shards, there's no reference for people at all to follow (unless your coming it with someone who's ramping you into a guild on your first day).. and the entire thing is a gear grind.

So yeah.. WoW is NOT the game people claim it is.. it's nothing more than a sad time sink, when in reality, it could have been 100 times better (and probably 10 times MORE successful that it is) with better balance.

Wait.. what? Honor and Battlegrounds weren't even implemented Day 1. There was 0 incentive to PVP during day 1.