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View Full Version : What does defiance need to survive past the next MMO release?



Santana Ortega
04-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Let's keep this somewhat civilized.
We all know the game needs fixes and bugs squashed. Quests and such working and no weapon grabing cookie monster.

What I am refering to is content wise.
What will keep Defiance up and popular once ESO and any other major, or minor mmo comes along.

To me, and the devs have already mentioned this will not happen...The Game has to have major cities, ruins and all.
If the TV show has a ruined St Louis and renamed it Defiance, the game needs a ruined San Francisco and Oakland at minimum, maybe even San Jose. Sacramento is maybe a better direction to move towards and on to Reno.
Just having landscape and small shacks and docks is a cop out. Alcatraz needs to be there, might be I have yet to get that far. Heck that survived Book of Eli.

Another thing the game needs is a meeting place. alla Defiance, where everyone can call home.
Again I have yet to get down south enough to know if that is in the game.

Any other thoughts?

ironhands
04-11-2013, 01:32 PM
challenging scripted encounters, that can fail if people don't pay attention beyond a simple timer mechanic, either arkfalls, or co-op maps, or massive raids into an enemy fort.

bullet-sponge encounters won't hold attention for too long

alienoid
04-11-2013, 01:39 PM
Well ESO is fantasy, Firefall and Wildstar are cellshading/cartoony/guns ala FF (read weapons that are 3 times your size and weight) so while I'll play ESO because, well, it's TES man, no kidding with TES ;) Defiance will still be my post apo crack.

Cities, I'm not sure. Doesn't fit well. A players hub of some sort ? Definitely but needs to be something more creative than a city IMO, more original.

jnt
04-11-2013, 01:56 PM
Character progression with more then 20 hours of depth.

Shima
04-11-2013, 01:58 PM
I don't really see this game as competing with an MMO. It has some of the features of an MMO but it's nothing like any MMO I've ever played.

I'm not sure trying to make it like one will really help the game, either.

SonicBoom
04-11-2013, 02:01 PM
What will keep Defiance up and popular once ESO and any other major, or minor mmo comes along.I think people exaggerate things too much, to be honest. MMOs are just like any other games out there. It's not one game to rule them all. World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 are both over a decade old, yet they are both doing well. Secret World, SW: Old Republic and Tera all failed quite badly, yet they are all going strong. Guild Wars 2 wasn't quite a failure, but it's not as popular as it should have been. People still play it, though. And that's pretty much the point here. It doesn't matter how many games are coming out, and how good they are. Some people will move to the new game, some won't. Some will go to the new game first, then come to the old one later to see what they missed out on. There is plenty of room for WoW, Everquest 1 and 2, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, lord of the Rings Online, Defiance, Tera, Guild Wars 2, SW: Old Republic, Wildstar, Elder Scrolls Online, DC Univers Online and lots of others to coexists side by side. :)


... so while I'll play ESO because, well, it's TES man, no kidding with TES ;)Well, Oblivion was a big joke, and Skyrim the punchline, so... :) Not that I want to derail the thread, but Elder Scrolls isn't what it used to be. It has gone more and more from roleplaying into a pure action game. Skyrim is the worst offender so far, as nothing we do there has any consequenses at all. You can get married, then forget all about your spouse two seconds later. You can even go away for months with another man or woman, yet your spouse sits at home without a care in the world, waiting for you to come home. But you never do, as there is nothing to do there. You can save people from dragons, yet once the heavily scripted and predictable attack is over, they don't even recognize you. Not one thing in the entire game matters. There's not even any challenges there anymore. No puzzles, no fun bosses, no surprisingly difficult enemies or anything like that. You just walk around, explore an empty (yet pretty) world with no challenge. But it looks good, so obviously it sells. Imagine if people came to their senses and demanded some actual gameplay too? Most developers would be bankrupt in a month. ;) Oblivion was boring, but at least it felt like an Elder Scrolls-game. Skyrim doesn't even do that. It's just a generic viking fantasy-world with very little "Elder Scrolls" going on. There's the occasional Khajiit, but that's about it.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I do want Elder Scrolls Online to be a big hit, but it doesn't look good. Guild Wars 2, SW: Old Republic, Tera, Warhammer Online, Secret World and Star Trek Online were all "guaranteed hits", yet they all failed. Considerign ESO have very little to do with the single-player Elder Scroll-games, and that all three factions are locked to individual zones, what makes you think ESO will succeed, when so many others have failed?

Insanityplea
04-11-2013, 02:07 PM
Honestly TES series failed, especially Oblivion on the whole to me. "Lets make a game, an awesome looking game, with lots of **** to do...but then hit budget with large issues revolving around in the game. But then lets open up Modding for the playerbase, cause yanno they can fix our failures...they did in the past and will again in the future."

Thats my whole gripe with TES Morrowind - Skyrim. Anything pre-dating Morrowind I did not play.

mikegonzalez2k
04-11-2013, 02:10 PM
More Instances/Raids

More CoOP / PVP things to do

Different types of Arkfall bosses (so it doesn't seem like the same over and over again)

Variety of enemies, I feel like I'm fighting the same enemies over and over again, no new strategies...

Make dailies actually have a purpose other than just raising reputation.
Add special drops from specific challenge quests which are daily and rare.

The world is way too small. Compare the world size to other popular MMO's that are doing well. Is your MMO comparable in size? If not, there's a huge problem with the length of the MMO. This could easily be remedied by adding regions as the show progresses.
As of right now the game doesn't feel that long. It seems the equivalent of getting to level 30 in WoW or Rift.

Create more EGO Powers. 4 Is seriously lacking in variety. To make it interesting add synergetic effects to EGO Powers so combining 2 or 4 have set effects. Allow more than 1 EGO Power to be used at once.

The servers need to be way more stable, and not as laggy.

Currency needs to have more of a purpose, right now there isn't much of one.

You need a more in depth crafting system than the Salvage Matrix.
Perhaps make mods for vehicles to add lots of fun interesting effects which gives players something to do and make. Also make outfits craftable as well as shields and grenades.

Customizable Characters... See Aion or Terra for research.

Oh and fix the chat system. This is an MMO, it would be nice if interacting with players was actually easy to do. The chat messages should disappear in less than 5 seconds. They should scroll and stay visible like every other MMO on the planet. They should be moveable, customizable in size and font. They should have transparency options. There should be a general are chat which is extended throughout the entire region not just within a 300m radius. For example look at Telara. If you are anywhere in Freemarch you can interact with the players in that area. Since there aren't really large industrial towns in this game there isn't going to be a large congregation of people hanging out trade spamming all day so you don't need to limit the chat radius.


Mostly if you want to keep players playing you ultimately just need more content. Games like World of Warcraft may not be the best MMO on the market, but they do keep their players engaged, and that's why their community is still so strong. Rift is a great game but everyone got to the end game too quickly and then stopped playing because they felt they had nothing else to do. I hope you guys learned not to do that with future MMOs.

Donkleaps
04-11-2013, 02:16 PM
This game in no way should try to be a traditional MMO.

I think the better option for this particular game is to go the route of Global Agenda and build an outlying map area beyond what the game is already and let players challenge each other over control of said areas in order to gain bonuses and extra loot.

As a side note the first company to really get the mechanics of a true open world FFA SANDBOX done correctly on any post apocalyptic theme is going to make a killing.

mikegonzalez2k
04-11-2013, 02:20 PM
Would have happened earlier but Fallout Online never happened ><

Pale
04-11-2013, 02:28 PM
Well I’m a slow poke and maybe half way done with the main story and still have tons of side quest and achievements to gain, only 774 EGO at the moment.

But Defiance is my second Game, which works great, I get my raid done and some Nightmares in Secret World (for puzzles, challenging boss fights and such), then it’s off to Defiance for some good old fun run and gun.

The big thing is if the TV show will do well and how they keep the sync and timeline going between the two is why I’m going to stick around. If the TV show becomes a big hit then the game will prosper and the sync between the two will become even more dynamic (least I hope).

and really it hasn't even been 2 full weeks since the release of the game, your not paying a sub why worry so.

alred
04-11-2013, 02:39 PM
I dunno, just keep adding content, fixing bugs. As I already own the game, there is no reason why I shouldn't play it every so often.

Also, I guess it depends on how that MMO is set up. Monthly fee, or free to play like Defiance.
I know shroud of the Avatar is in the works, and it also won't have a monthly fee. It made it's kickstarter goals.

But I'm pretty much done with MMOs, world of Warcraft left a crap taste in my mouth. And I still have 4 or 5 game time cards left. And yes, I return to it every so often as well.

Radzwe
04-11-2013, 02:43 PM
The game is basically F2P already... within 3 months, the game will go on sale and bring some more people in. Many of the games people have listed as failed are making money for their developers. I hate SW:TOR F2P model, but the Star Trek Online model works pretty well.

A F2P game with a stream of new content, even paid content, will likely do pretty well.

As an aside, I imagine they have tons of new features planned.

Jardian
04-11-2013, 02:48 PM
People will leave people will come. Some troll always wants to post some crap about the next mmo killing so and so and every time it dont do squat. If it did WoW would have died long ago people been gripeing about it on their froums since its release saying they didnt like this or that and this needs to change or im going to tell my mommy.

So to sum it up either play or dont but dont try and troll like anything posted here will matter.

srf3003
04-11-2013, 02:52 PM
Cookies. Cookies make everything better. Oh, and maybe a global chat system.

alienoid
04-11-2013, 02:53 PM
People will leave people will come. Some troll always wants to post some crap about the next mmo killing so and so and every time it dont do squat. If it did WoW would have died long ago people been gripeing about it on their froums since its release saying they didnt like this or that and this needs to change or im going to tell my mommy.

So to sum it up either play or dont but dont try and troll like anything posted here will matter.

^This. Hard to find in there but there are people with common sense, that's a relief ;)

Kuldred
04-11-2013, 02:55 PM
Anyway, to get back on topic, I do want Elder Scrolls Online to be a big hit, but it doesn't look good. Guild Wars 2, SW: Old Republic, Tera, Warhammer Online, Secret World and Star Trek Online were all "guaranteed hits", yet they all failed. Considerign ESO have very little to do with the single-player Elder Scroll-games, and that all three factions are locked to individual zones, what makes you think ESO will succeed, when so many others have failed?

GW2 failed? News to me. Probably news to all of thier full servers as well. You know most of thier servers are still at capacity, right?

KodiakX
04-11-2013, 02:59 PM
I've been playing MMOs for a long time and I can tell you now there's two basic things needed for any kind of longevity:

1. Good gameplay. The game play elements have to be solid and fun. While "fun" can be subjective, in general most people like action oriented games. Even WOW has pretty fast game play with the number of instant cast abilities they have despite still having a full arsenal of slow and boring stuff too. Game like Defiance has this in spades where the "not so realistic" shooter elements create a fun and fast atmosphere. Once they work the kinks out of the perks and game play it'll be very solid.

2. Focusing on the end game. People, no matter how slow, will eventually hit your end game. Some people it'll take a week. Others it'll take a month. Others it'll take 6 months. By focusing your development efforts on the end game you'll ensure you're not wasting your development time because everyone will take part at the end. This is one of those secrets to WOW's success which ever since Burning Crusade has a bunch of filler content for a few levels, then a huge focus on the cap. Defiance does a decent job of this by creating a super high character advancement goal of 5000. The problem is the variety of content to do for those 5000 ego ranks is pretty low and after a certain point you stop caring because you have everything you'd need to be functional. The game becomes a decision of do I want to repeat the same 4 Major Arkfalls over and over for the next month to grind towards 5000 or just say screw it. Content alone isn't enough however and you need to support your end game as well. I quit SWTOR because I was tired of spamming fleet for a group every day for a month fighting against chat trolls, not because I had ran out of stuff to do. Defiance's lack of social features does it no good either.

You're not going to please everyone, that's a given. There's a huge crowd of people who really hate the "grind to cap then the game begins" but unfortunately for them they'll play just the same so don't really matter. Unfortunately most game companies don't have enough of 2 and always end up coming up short around the 1 month mark where your average gamer comes along. We've seen this countless times before over the last few years while the games that do focus on supporting a robust end game will keep the customers.

On 4/30 the NWO beta goes into open with no more wipes (basically a launch) which means they got till around then. Personally between all the terrible bugs, poor design, and the prospect of grinding 4 Major Arkfalls to keep advancing likely won't keep my interest past that date. Ya never know and they might just pull something out of their hat (experience tells me to doubt it).

Ikagawa
04-11-2013, 03:00 PM
World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 are both over a decade old

Nope. Math is hard!

alienoid
04-11-2013, 03:02 PM
Anyway, to get back on topic, I do want Elder Scrolls Online to be a big hit, but it doesn't look good. Guild Wars 2, SW: Old Republic, Tera, Warhammer Online, Secret World and Star Trek Online were all "guaranteed hits", yet they all failed. Considerign ESO have very little to do with the single-player Elder Scroll-games, and that all three factions are locked to individual zones, what makes you think ESO will succeed, when so many others have failed?

Well, I play STO, SWtoR and TSW. I don't need a game to be a press success to appreciate it. I give it a try by myself. If I enjoy it, it's a success to me and that's good enough.

SonicBoom
04-12-2013, 06:40 AM
But Defiance is my second Game, which works great, *snip*

and really it hasn't even been 2 full weeks since the release of the game, your not paying a sub why worry so.That's one thing that surprised me. When I got Defiance, I was just coming out of Rift (got to the mid lvl 40s, then got bored), and was honestly thinking about having Guild Wars 2 as my 'main' MMO. Although all three of my GW2 characters only are around lvl 15, I did have one around lvl 36 earlier. Just forgot my account-name and made a new account instead. :) But anyway, look at the flaws in Defiance:

- There's no customization
- No classes
- Boring story
- Boring gameplay
- No crafting
- No MMO-feeling (chat is dead, even in dungeons)

And so on and on. It was fully expecting it to last a week or two. But what surprised me is that Defiance is really growing on me. We do get more customization as we go along (I reached EVO rating 250 lat night), and right now I have five or so different uniforms to pick from. Not counting all those in the cash store. That's not a lot, but how many do we need? And I know there are more down the road in the main story, the other episodic missions (I've done all four we have right now), and there'll be more in the cash store. No classes? No sweat. I have far more perks than I can use anyway. No crafting? Wel.... sort of. We can modify our weaponry, which is a lot more fun than I thought it would be. And besides, I'd rather improve my shotgun than bake a cake anyway. Hehe.

That leaves the MMO-feeling. It's too early to tell how that'll be, but Trion has promised a large patch both next week and two weeks after (so they told me in an e-mail today), and I know they are working on the chat system. They aren't stupid, after all. A better chat system will lead to a better MMO-feeling. Besides, I was invited to a clan yesterday, but left it after a few minutes as I didn't know how to even chat in the Clan-chat. If I had know that (and I will, once we get a better chat system), I would have gotten my MMO-share. Plus, there's the lovely Arkfalls. They might get a bit repetitive, and yes, no one talks to each other there (other than though microphones, but I don't use them), but at least I've been constantly fighting alongside 15, 20 other people there. And once we're done with one, we set off towards the next one together, even if in silence.

So all in all, I think the main thing Defiance need to succeed is players willing to give it a fair chance and stick with it for a while. Trust me, don't play it a few hours and quit.If you stick with it over a week or so, it will grow on you. It's not your typical MMO, and yes, it has flaws. But it's improving a lot, and a hell of a lot of fun to play. :)

Edit: Oh, and I forgot the story. Boring? Well... yeah. But it's an MMO, so what do you expect? Plus, we got the tv-series for our story. Hopefully, the game-story will get better as we get the tv-story going, and get to know the characters and world better.

Nicc0
04-12-2013, 07:12 AM
I hope that Trion wil not give up on this game because of all the stupid hate seen around,the game is really good and fun,there are some bad problems but I have seen worst launch by games with montnly fee.
So I'm asking myself why all those bad critics on mob AI,glitch and bugs that are present also in all the others mmo.
Looking forward to see Trion going ahead and make this game better and better,maybe some "angry" stupid that done hasty review will have to reconsider his position.

Anim
04-12-2013, 08:33 AM
I hope that Trion wil not give up on this game because of all the stupid hate seen around,the game is really good and fun,there are some bad problems but I have seen worst launch by games with montnly fee.
So I'm asking myself why all those bad critics on mob AI,glitch and bugs that are present also in all the others mmo.
Looking forward to see Trion going ahead and make this game better and better,maybe some "angry" stupid that done hasty review will have to reconsider his position.

A tiny fraction of the complaints are about bugs, the huge amount is about the complete lack of things to do. ****, even one extra pvp map would please people for a while at least and we know it's there because we played it in beta.

Nicc0
04-12-2013, 08:46 AM
Maybe people plays too much,after a week post launch I'm nearly ego 600 and still have to do many story and side quest in Marin,never been in Sausalito,I have completed only a co-op map and still have to join PVP match because I'm not a good PVP player.
I'm not saying that the game is perfect but we need games like Defiance because are fun and in many ways different from the same old mmo mechanics,we can not play same old mmorpg forever,there must be some evolution at some point and if games like Defiance are bashed and people are told to not buy them we will play world of warcraft forever,so I say to give some time to Trion before say this game is not worth buying.

hexxman
04-12-2013, 09:48 AM
without a totally revamped chat functions and socilization this game will fail before the tv series comes out nevermind the next mmo release.

discosoc
04-12-2013, 10:33 AM
They need more effective methods of communicating and trading with players. The fact that the game relies so heavily on voice chat is going to limit it pretty badly. Unfortunately, first impressions are very lasting in the MMO and gaming world. The Defiance team screwed theirs up, so the best they can hope for now is to either avoid bleeding players or pray that the show becomes some kind of ratings behemoth.

To any Trion dev's out there thinking about making another MMO (or whatever genre you want to call this), do not bother releasing it on the PC if the game design doesn't support it. Horrible UI, no usable social functions beyond local voice chat, no way to trade stuff without posting on forums a-la 1999, too many confirmation prompts that can't be turned off, and graphics settings that are restricted to the capabilities of a console.

You guys screwed up big time.

Shima
04-12-2013, 10:35 AM
While I completely agree with you guys about the chat woes for the PC, I have to wonder just how big the playerbase of this game is on the PC vs 360/PS3.