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View Full Version : What do you guys think of weapons?



Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 10:00 AM
sorry if a thread like this has been created before but I'm talking to a friend about all the weapon mechanics and i wanted to see what everyone else though, such as.


Not getting skill EXP after you max your guns EXP to full?
SMG, LMG and assault rifles having the same ammo pools?
yellow guns doing more DMG then oranges?


I've noticed a lot of threads complaining about guns and i usually stick to the answer "the devs wanted to keep the game balanced" but there comes a point when its kind of ridiculous.. I have an orange SMG that does less damage then a yellow? and the guns i do enjoy using i never get to use except for in PVP because they dont get me skill exp... I dont want this to turn into another one of those "oh lets bash on this person, they hate the game" i love the game and have played it none stop since release! XD

Sajin
04-12-2013, 10:02 AM
Heh I think I'm the only one that wants the SMG Plasma Pulser [el] back xD

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 10:03 AM
Heh I think I'm the only one that wants the SMG Plasma Pulser [el] back xD

lol xD i know a few people who want it back... :P

mcwjimbo
04-12-2013, 10:06 AM
how about shields LOL my blue respark III is way better than a purple respark IV i got < OBVIOUS fail issue

Sajin
04-12-2013, 10:06 AM
Do you know if they have a variant of it? Or did they just nuke it? The closest thing I can find is the pistol you get from beating end boss...already forgot his name :/

mbergeron
04-12-2013, 10:07 AM
I like how the weapon system is because it isn't a borderlands farm fest and I think it will take time for people to learn how to get the most out of the weapons as far as synergy goes. It can get a little cumbersome in the inventory when you try to sell and salvage weapons, but overall I enjoy the system as it is.

Cutlass Jack
04-12-2013, 10:07 AM
We should definately continue to get skill EXP after maxing a weapon out. It kind of defeats the purpose of giving weapons bonuses for maxing out exp if you can't use them after that point. It makes the player feel punished at a point they should feel rewarded.

I think modding should be better too. You should at the very least be able to replace a mod in a gun without having to destroy all other mods in the gun.

Wooisme
04-12-2013, 10:08 AM
Yeah agree, exp after weapon is max. So pointless to keep weapons, End up buying throw away weapons to level skills and I don't like that.

Bedouin
04-12-2013, 10:10 AM
Not getting skill EXP after you max your guns EXP to full?
SMG, LMG and assault rifles having the same ammo pools?
yellow guns doing more DMG then oranges?




I agree, these things do not make sense.

SonicBoom
04-12-2013, 10:11 AM
I really like the weapon system. It doesn't bother me that all machineguns (LMG, SMB and assault rifles) have the same ammo pool. I mean, how often do you run low on ammo anyway? As for yellows doing more damage than oranges etc, I'm sure that's just a few patches away. And as for not getting EXP once your gun levels up, that's pretty neat. It forces you to choose if you want to keep your currently awesome gun and not get any more general weapon experience, or if you want to switch to a somewhat worse gun, but in return get more general weapon experience. I love difficult choices like this. :)

Youngwings
04-12-2013, 10:11 AM
I personally Like that once a weapon is maxed, you cant use it level anymore... make me try new weapons. As for the SMG, LMG and AR having the same ammo type... i think that sucks. And "Yellow" Weapons having the same stats is inaccurate. They may have the same damage, and the same reload... but the color determines the extra stats. "Yellow" has none, Blue has 1, Purple has 2, and Orange has 3. For instance, i have 2 VBI SMGs, one Yellow, has no extras, and the other is Orange, has 1.10x Rate of Fire, 10% Ego Recharge on Kill, and +15% Grenade Recharge on Full Reload.

AgentMytho
04-12-2013, 10:11 AM
First I played to ego 850 and I am on the last main mission in the game, and I have been using the same 186 shotgun and 236 assault rifle the whole game. Which means my highest weapon level in the game is 2. So it doesn't completely screw you to not have a weapon level 20, although it will probably hurt you in PVP.

But once I realized this I did go out and bought a couple of cheap AR's and spent about 3 hours maxing out their experience (casual play not grinding kills) to get my AR skill to 6.

On the other hand my secondary weapon, a sawed off shotgun, is so slow to use and so situational, that despite trying to use it as much as possible I only earned about 1/4 of the experience bar on the weapon (although I think i got up to weapon level 3).

So basically I think the system is flawed, since it is much more difficult to upgarde some weapons, and kind of a cheesy way to force palyers to swap weapons of the same type. On the otherhand if you choose not to participate it is't the end of the world.

xXChromeGhostXx
04-12-2013, 10:14 AM
I think they seriously need to stop nerfing the physical players and give us bump ups jesus christ, we're facing 10-30 enemies with skilles equal to ours but yet they nail me from across the map with SMG's and do full damage with them BS i'm ten feet away and y damage drops so bad it's stupid. We need better shields.. ohhh 1030 wit 40 sec charge and 3 delay yeah okay, best I found is a Rhino3 with 1703 30% but like a 9. delay. it's BS bump our stats on shields and nerf the ****ing enemies. I mean I just finished the mission where have to activate all the Bulwarks and fight off the Dark matter. And that was ridiculous c'mon this is something that needs be addressed quickly. that or nerf the enemies down one gee.
Especially in Co-Op i'm EGO 726, but joining multiplayer matches in co-op with people 500-under they can't do **** to the enemies and im left doing the work it's BS.

Napalm Sunrise
04-12-2013, 10:34 AM
sorry if a thread like this has been created before but I'm talking to a friend about all the weapon mechanics and i wanted to see what everyone else though, such as.


Not getting skill EXP after you max your guns EXP to full?
SMG, LMG and assault rifles having the same ammo pools?
yellow guns doing more DMG then oranges?


I've noticed a lot of threads complaining about guns and i usually stick to the answer "the devs wanted to keep the game balanced" but there comes a point when its kind of ridiculous.. I have an orange SMG that does less damage then a yellow? and the guns i do enjoy using i never get to use except for in PVP because they dont get me skill exp... I dont want this to turn into another one of those "oh lets bash on this person, they hate the game" i love the game and have played it none stop since release! XD

I'm beginning to believe that the stats are so secondary they should have just scrapped the color system altogether. It's causing too much of a fuss for people because we were conditioned to believe the color tier system as law. With a horizontal progression system it runs directly counter to our instinctual understanding of what is valuable vs. what is not. You mentioned a perfect example. Additionally, the weapons seems to be contextually impacted much more than games with tiered gear systems. Like you can't just muscle an SMG in Defiance into a sniping role on demand due to recoil, ammo limitations, shared ammo pool etc. Borderlands 1 if you nabbed a Hellfire with a scope you had a flaming, full automatic, medium long to long range assault weapon with up to an 82 round magazine and massive DOT along with DPS additionally by the time you had these insane legendaries in BL1 you your character class could actively regen ammo be that through a combat skill or through a character mod. In this game you're lucky to regen a PERCENTAGE of ammo under certain circumstances limited in scope to the active perks you have equipped.

I liked the weapon system at first. It made me think I could finally just settle down with some gun I loved like Jane had Vera in Firefly and just update that baby. But with a max level weapon NOT gaining any weapon experience for the category it's like the system is contradicting it's own principles, for what purpose? I mean if it's just gonna be another AR I swap to for AR experience what is there to gain in player skill? variation, okay that's divisible by two for AR's. Burst Fire and and Full Auto but maybe full auto is what I like, so why hold me back if my gun already does full auto?

Personally after having thought about it more, I think the system is flawed by a lot. RL's generally do the same damage as a single shot sniper rifle?! Combat and Pump Shotgun damage tables are so wildly varied that just getting a shotgun doesn't mean it's gonna be a reasonable option off the bat you actually have to assess its' stopping power and effectiveness per shell. I mean the first FRC berserker shotgun I found did like 28x8 or something and I am guessing the huge tradeoff was the large magazine and high rate of fire. But what good is it if my FRC Scattershot pump does double that damage and takes two shots to kill vs. 4-6 on the berserker? IDK, it's little things like that which just make the game feel actually more UNBALANCED than balanced at least for the PVE parts. Especially when the Elite versions of anything become hell on wheels to kill before they kill you especially when they attack in mobs.

Fiben Bolger
04-12-2013, 10:37 AM
I think the system is brilliant. What I think is really unhealthy is the gear grind that has come to define MMO gaming. It wasn't always that way.

No one should feel a sense of accomplishment because they've acquired a "legendary" weapon in a game. A raise at work? Yes. A better job? Yes. Making your spouse smile? Yes. Getting an "A" in school? Yes. Learning to play piano? Yes. Owning a virtual weapon in a virtual world? No.

I play for fun. I am not such a hamster on a wheel, racing but getting nowhere (owning a new legendary lmg is getting nowhere), that I can't simply appreciate the fun of playing a game. I cannot understand people who demand this stuff. Crack junkies make more sense. At least crack is an actual drug that gets you high, not a bunch of 1s and 0s on a hard drive.

It is great that advancement in this game comes not from gear, but from player skill. For me, this game combines a persistent, open world, fun, an alter ego who is allowed to shoot people in the face...and no gear grind. It is the perfect MMO that I have been waiting for for a very long time.

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 10:52 AM
I'm beginning to believe that the stats are so secondary they should have just scrapped the color system altogether. It's causing too much of a fuss for people because we were conditioned to believe the color tier system as law. With a horizontal progression system it runs directly counter to our instinctual understanding of what is valuable vs. what is not. You mentioned a perfect example. Additionally, the weapons seems to be contextually impacted much more than games with tiered gear systems. Like you can't just muscle an SMG in Defiance into a sniping role on demand due to recoil, ammo limitations, shared ammo pool etc. Borderlands 1 if you nabbed a Hellfire with a scope you had a flaming, full automatic, medium long to long range assault weapon with up to an 82 round magazine and massive DOT along with DPS additionally by the time you had these insane legendaries in BL1 you your character class could actively regen ammo be that through a combat skill or through a character mod. In this game you're lucky to regen a PERCENTAGE of ammo under certain circumstances limited in scope to the active perks you have equipped.

I liked the weapon system at first. It made me think I could finally just settle down with some gun I loved like Jane had Vera in Firefly and just update that baby. But with a max level weapon NOT gaining any weapon experience for the category it's like the system is contradicting it's own principles, for what purpose? I mean if it's just gonna be another AR I swap to for AR experience what is there to gain in player skill? variation, okay that's divisible by two for AR's. Burst Fire and and Full Auto but maybe full auto is what I like, so why hold me back if my gun already does full auto?

Personally after having thought about it more, I think the system is flawed by a lot. RL's generally do the same damage as a single shot sniper rifle?! Combat and Pump Shotgun damage tables are so wildly varied that just getting a shotgun doesn't mean it's gonna be a reasonable option off the bat you actually have to assess its' stopping power and effectiveness per shell. I mean the first FRC berserker shotgun I found did like 28x8 or something and I am guessing the huge tradeoff was the large magazine and high rate of fire. But what good is it if my FRC Scattershot pump does double that damage and takes two shots to kill vs. 4-6 on the berserker? IDK, it's little things like that which just make the game feel actually more UNBALANCED than balanced at least for the PVE parts. Especially when the Elite versions of anything become hell on wheels to kill before they kill you especially when they attack in mobs.

Thank you for taking the time to type that out, I appreciate the thought and time that went into it. and ya I'm lvl 1,233 at the moment.. i would be higher but for the past 3-4 days iv just been screwing around because grinding is soooo dull until the patch on the 15th when i can redo story missions. I had a sniper rifle up until last night that was level 20 that blew my lvl 1000 bolt action snipers out of the water. and it was a white.. lol.

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 10:57 AM
I think they seriously need to stop nerfing the physical players and give us bump ups jesus christ, we're facing 10-30 enemies with skilles equal to ours but yet they nail me from across the map with SMG's and do full damage with them BS i'm ten feet away and y damage drops so bad it's stupid. We need better shields.. ohhh 1030 wit 40 sec charge and 3 delay yeah okay, best I found is a Rhino3 with 1703 30% but like a 9. delay. it's BS bump our stats on shields and nerf the ****ing enemies. I mean I just finished the mission where have to activate all the Bulwarks and fight off the Dark matter. And that was ridiculous c'mon this is something that needs be addressed quickly. that or nerf the enemies down one gee.
Especially in Co-Op i'm EGO 726, but joining multiplayer matches in co-op with people 500-under they can't do **** to the enemies and im left doing the work it's BS.

I only find problems with shields when im in things like "moonshine shacks" but i can understand were your coming from to a point.

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 11:01 AM
I really like the weapon system. It doesn't bother me that all machineguns (LMG, SMB and assault rifles) have the same ammo pool. I mean, how often do you run low on ammo anyway? As for yellows doing more damage than oranges etc, I'm sure that's just a few patches away. And as for not getting EXP once your gun levels up, that's pretty neat. It forces you to choose if you want to keep your currently awesome gun and not get any more general weapon experience, or if you want to switch to a somewhat worse gun, but in return get more general weapon experience. I love difficult choices like this. :)

Its not a really "difficult choice" its more annoying then anything. someone said something along the lines of "we're supposed to be looking forword to the better guns, not looking back to bad guns" something like that which i agree with.

PseudoCool
04-12-2013, 11:07 AM
First off.. I'm calling BS on the poster who said he has to do all the work in Co-Ops because of the Ego level difference. I just did a co-op this morning with a level 1128, and I had more kills and damage than he did, and I'm only at 370 right now. So horsepucky.. get some better co-op teamies next time :)

And I've said it before, and I'll probably say it a hundred more times.. LMG's and AR's SHOULD have the same ammo pools, but SMG's SHOULD NOT be included. When the dev's did this, they didn't listen to the players in Alpha/Beta, and it effectively nerfed all the SMG's right back to the stone age. Who wants a weapon that's max is 122pts of damage when the exact same bullet in an LMG gives you 404 damage? Even the nano effects do NOT make up for that type of difference.

I think the amount of content, for a game with massive amounts of upcoming content from being tied in with a tv show, is about right, and I am glad to see the new patch will have the ability to re-run the previous missions. That's the thing that people aren't getting.. weekly or bi-weekly updates based on the TV show tie-in for in-game activities. The Dev's haven't given us a proper or even estimated time line for that yet, but there's no way to do a tie in between the two without some pretty hefty content updates once the show goes live.

The weapons system.. oh man.. the leveling is a bit odd to get used to. The weapons don't do more damage, but have more secondary stats, which actually, when you get the right weapon, it's rather fun to work with. Getting that weapon however, can be quite the challenge. Getting the mods for that weapon to really fly, that's even harder.

I don't like that the weapon doesn't continue to increase the class xp after it's filled up, but it DOES keep you moving onto new weapons and whatnot. Which after a bit is nice, because you just retrieve the mods and scrap the weapon.. put the mods into another one and keep going (yes, I've done this with 3 LMG's so far). However.. it's a bit of a time sink, and I'd rather something smoother and more time efficient.

Overall.. I give the game a 8.5 out of 10.. the chat system being the HUGE detractor for me (and not mentioned so I'm not off topic from the OP).

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 11:19 AM
First off.. I'm calling BS on the poster who said he has to do all the work in Co-Ops because of the Ego level difference. I just did a co-op this morning with a level 1128, and I had more kills and damage than he did, and I'm only at 370 right now. So horsepucky.. get some better co-op teamies next time :)

I dont fully understand all that part of your post :o sorry XD and i gree with the AR and LMG pools but it would just be nice to have the option. and i agree ill sit here and wait for the new content. I mainly just made this thread to really see what you guys thought of it.. since iv heard a lot of "blah blah blah *terribly worded argument* blah blah stupid game" though i know a lot of you guys are better then that XD

Radzwe
04-12-2013, 11:23 AM
I am a fan of weapons, they are cool

Napalm Sunrise
04-12-2013, 11:26 AM
Thank you for taking the time to type that out, I appreciate the thought and time that went into it. and ya I'm lvl 1,233 at the moment.. i would be higher but for the past 3-4 days iv just been screwing around because grinding is soooo dull until the patch on the 15th when i can redo story missions. I had a sniper rifle up until last night that was level 20 that blew my lvl 1000 bolt action snipers out of the water. and it was a white.. lol.

Wow a level 20 showing the new young guns at level 1000 how they did it when you had almost no EGO perks or new fangled synergy bonuses and that dark matter sorcery huh? J/K

But on a serious note that is just... that is crazy. Like there should not be any separation of statistical or practical viability with THAT wide of a performance divide between both leveled gear and color tiers if the color tier system were to have ANY VALUE whatsoever.

Solpel
04-12-2013, 11:43 AM
I agree the system is flawed, I can live with the shared ammo some what for assault LMG/SMG(though SMG using the same rounds as the other two makes little sense). However, the rest of it is like they tried to take a little of this and a little of that from multiple FPS games but didn't commit to any one in particular, and then hoped that it would suddenly be awesome? I hope whoever designed the system was fired... from a cannon.

First we have a color coding system that means almost nothing(which as others mentioned probably causes a lot of the confusion currently). The synergies on the "better" weapons tend to be as lackluster as everything else, and in most cases are useless to a person's build or the weapon type its on. Then their's the extra bonus from purple/orange, like 15% grenade recharge on kill that are great, then you have others that are horrible, so it makes it a crap shoot on even getting what someone might consider a good combination.

In my opinion, what they need to do to improve this category more is give more levels to the higher category weapons, so a white can go up 1 level like currently, and unlock 1 bonus, a green can level twice, a blue can level three times, purple four times and orange 5 times, as an example. Now their is greater variation, but not so much that it completely unbalances things.

This would also allow a person to continue to use a weapon type they like for longer if they decide to keep the current system of having character weapon skill stop progressing when weapon xp is filled.

However that system should not stay in the game, it adds nothing but tedium, and a good game design philosophy is that if something is a game is neither fun, nor adds anything of importance to the game, then it's a flawed component that needs to be removed or changed(sort of like how the lack of a loadout hotkey is a horrible UI design).

Then we have the mod system, this could have also added some coolness and variation to the games weapons, and could also have been turned into a sort of crafting system for the game. Instead we have more generic junk that add's very little to the game, at least with Battlefield 3 their mod system add's real differences to the weapons more then here.(and where the heck are the reflex and red dot sights!!)
Whatever happened to the mod system like in this pistol picture?(0.50 cal grenade attach for pistol, yes please!)
http://en.defiance-wiki.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/c5/Defiance_game_Sidearm_breakdown.jpg/742px-Defiance_game_Sidearm_breakdown.jpg

There is not enough of a difference or variation in the current mod's, you basically have 2 or 3 choices for most spots to do a small generic upgrade to one base stat, instead of a system that could let you change how a weapon functions. Where are the barrel mods that let you change the caliber of bullet that can be fired but sacrifices say rate of fire, or a barrel attachment that adds a secondary grenade launcher to your assault rifle. How about a magazine mod that adds armor piercing or explosive rounds, or enemy seeking guided rounds. (we do at least have various nano ones, but they're very rare and only replace what already exists on a weapon).

So we have a generic weapon system, no in game armor (btw, nice job having those early 2009/2010 pictures showing a version of game that had actual armor items, disappear from Stephan Dube's site Trion! :p ), no meaningful progression, and at the moment(at least we know this will change) very little in the way of content/mission/story. So what exactly is supposed to keep most players around again? Certainly not the pvp.

Btw, I don't hate the game(I don't love it either), but currently it has nothing to keep me, and I imagine a lot of other players here around for long term.

PseudoCool
04-12-2013, 11:58 AM
@Solpel

Nice post, and excellent thoughts.

I have to agree with your idea for a weapons "upgrade" system, that would make weapons more useful in the long run, but not sure about making them more "fun".

As for mods, well.. I've gotten ONE that added a radiation nano effect, and as well added a +6 to my magazine.. and for AR's no less. If I remember correctly the synergy mod for that one is Brutal and I got it from a synergy cache (which I recommend NO ONE buy, they are atrociously crap-shoots).

I like the ideas you've got for mods as well, and having those items be high priced from the vendors (not a random) would be great as well. The random generator in this game... well.. ehh.. not really happy with it.

As for armor.. well.. I'd like to see more in the way of shields, or even moddable shields. The whole concept of having armor, either bought or dropped, just feels too much like a gear grind to me, and I LOATHE gear grinds, especially in MMO's with a static end game.

Solpel
04-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Yes, i'm fine with the game not having armor, if they made shields better and being able to be modded as well. I'd also love to see the sidearm weapon slot return(those early game screenshots I mentioned on top of having armor, also had 2 weapon slots + a sidearm slot, as well as shield)

Currently both shield and grenade slots are rather plain.

Amber Fae
04-12-2013, 12:33 PM
@solpel
@Pseeudocool

Ya i have to agree with you both, you both have very good ideas for the game lol! XD