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View Full Version : Please fix the weapon leveling system....PLEASE!



Gero
04-14-2013, 10:23 PM
I really like this game. Other than the glitches, server issues and occasional lag (Xbox) I've been playing this game pretty much non-stop when I have free time. I just hit ego rating 904 and the one thing that really upsets me about this game is the weapon leveling system.

Lets be honest here, there is very little in the way of gear progression in this game. Guns don't really get stronger, and thats fine. I understand this game was made so that you can play with anyone at any time. If your friends at 2000 ego rating and you're at 200 you can still play together in a meaningful way, and I love that. So, seeing as guns don't really get 'stronger' clearly the goal when gearing your ark hunter is finding a set of gear that works best with your play style and build. Also, with the mod system, making the gun you like the most the best it can be is one of the most interesting things about this game. So why in the heck did we create a weapon leveling system that requires you to constantly have to replace your weapons with guns you may not like as much?!?!?!?!?!

At my current ego rating I have 4 load outs. Of those loadouts I have 3 that I really love with guns modded just the way I like with level II+ mods in all slots, and one I use for leveling with just vender guns and vender mods...... So how does it make sense that in a game, that is clearly about customization more than progression am I using the load out I like the least 95% of the time?! How is that a good system?

Also, as someone who pvps 60%+ of the time he's in game, it really stinks to feel like you're falling behind because you want to use the guns you feel the most competitive with. Weapon leveling in pvp is already very slow because you clearly not mowing down enemies at a super high rate (even though I do very well). The fact that I feel like I shouldn't be using the guns I like better just seems like bad design.

I think they need to either
A) allow you to reset weapon exp on a maxed out weapon for a small amount of resources
B) Allow you to keep gaining skill levels once you max out a guns exp


TL'DR
The constant forced weapon switching caused by the weapon leveling system seems counter intuitive to the games general design and concept and should be changed. People should use the guns they like.

Dana Dawn
04-14-2013, 10:43 PM
What is even more insane is that:
- the only weapons you can get are of the same ego level as yourself.
- the weapons of a higher ego level are exactly the same as a lower ego level, when their colour are the same.
- It costs a lot more to add mod slots on a higher ego level weapon.
- You don't get more currencies at a higher ego level.

What we are probably going to see is veteran players spamming the newbie zone asking newbies to buy them weapons for script.

Gero
04-15-2013, 12:34 AM
What is even more insane is that:
- the only weapons you can get are of the same ego level as yourself.
- the weapons of a higher ego level are exactly the same as a lower ego level, when their colour are the same.
- It costs a lot more to add mod slots on a higher ego level weapon.
- You don't get more currencies at a higher ego level.

What we are probably going to see is veteran players spamming the newbie zone asking newbies to buy them weapons for script.


This blows my mind too. I have no idea why its like that. Imagine how much it costs to add a mod slot to a 5000 ego gun haha

Dist0rt3d Hum0r
04-15-2013, 12:39 AM
I honestly don't like it either, but it is a way to get you out of your comfort zone and getting you to try new things, though poorly done at best.

BassGSD
04-15-2013, 12:45 AM
This blows my mind too. I have no idea why its like that. Imagine how much it costs to add a mod slot to a 5000 ego gun haha

I'd wager that they'd come with all 4 slots filled by that point.

Around EGO 500 you're pretty much always going to get weapons with 3 innate mod slots. So it's not too much of a stretch to assume you'd get 4-slotters regularly at some point down the line.

Shootersa
04-15-2013, 12:49 AM
get past 1000 and everything will drop 4 slot.

illgot
04-15-2013, 12:50 AM
I'm at 1k ego and starting to find more of my weapons with 4 slots already set and 1 more bonus than before.

I am also noticing some of the weapons have a little more damage.

I like this system. It makes every level viable. Nothing drives off players like getting into a game and noticing you stand no chance because the people that have been around since the start have gear 5000% better than you.

As for the weapon experience, I wish we could pay an NPC to reset our weapon experience so we can keep using weapons we perfected without the need to change them out to level up our weapon role.

Gero
04-15-2013, 12:52 AM
I honestly don't like it either, but it is a way to get you out of your comfort zone and getting you to try new things, though poorly done at best.

I understand that. Still after a little time playing you'll see every gun type pretty much. Like I've used every kind of ar that there is and I know what I like, and what I don't.

CommissarSCV
04-15-2013, 12:52 AM
I'd wager that they'd come with all 4 slots filled by that point.

Around EGO 500 you're pretty much always going to get weapons with 3 innate mod slots. So it's not too much of a stretch to assume you'd get 4-slotters regularly at some point down the line.

Generally yes you end up getting 4 slots on anything green+ over 1000 ego. Plus after buying or finding some good guns you end up leveling to increase your overall stat, you may find a weapon with a better level bonus than your current. I've ended up with much better guns over 1000 due to inherent stats, that end up having a great bonus as well. Either way, when you hit 20 you won't care about leveling weapons anyway. Just have one loadout for junk leveling weapons, and another with the good stuff for the tough fights.

j_door8
04-15-2013, 01:08 AM
I'm confused here. So I have two load outs right now, only about 250 ego. One is my human AR and vog shotgun. Other one is like an alien AR and some explosive weapon can't remember. I only really use the first load out because its my favorite, why would I use something different for leveling and for pvp/more difficult things?

Vouric
04-15-2013, 01:23 AM
I'm confused here. So I have two load outs right now, only about 250 ego. One is my human AR and vog shotgun. Other one is like an alien AR and some explosive weapon can't remember. I only really use the first load out because its my favorite, why would I use something different for leveling and for pvp/more difficult things?

Well once you max the weapons xp bar you can no longer gain any increase in its corresponding weapon skill.

Hexi
04-15-2013, 01:48 AM
This thread again. Look people, the progression is SLOW, you're not gonna get cool stuff at EGO 100 like you might wish. This is good, it give a reason to keep playing. I'm at 1.1k EGO and I can destroy anyone under 1k EGO in instance damage and I only have defensive perks. Do you know why? Because I have guns thye simply do not have access to. I also have shields they can only dream of.

Stop crying that you didn't get the uber weapon of death and destruction handed out to you simply for participating.

Use a good gun when you need to and level up the overall skill with random events and stuff where it doesn't matter.

silvertemplar
04-15-2013, 02:09 AM
What is even more insane is that:
- the only weapons you can get are of the same ego level as yourself.
- the weapons of a higher ego level are exactly the same as a lower ego level, when their colour are the same.
- It costs a lot more to add mod slots on a higher ego level weapon.
- You don't get more currencies at a higher ego level.

What we are probably going to see is veteran players spamming the newbie zone asking newbies to buy them weapons for script.

Looks like there is a reason to roll alts afterall. I wondered how they were going to get any of the veterans to buy into a new race (assuming it's added) without the game changing . So now you can roll up that new race and just keep it at a low ego and trade in low ego guns.

illgot
04-15-2013, 02:12 AM
Looks like there is a reason to roll alts afterall. I wondered how they were going to get any of the veterans to buy into a new race (assuming it's added) without the game changing . So now you can roll up that new race and just keep it at a low ego and trade in low ego guns.

Right. I plan on doing a constant scan for weapons but the highest weapons I have seen on the shops are purple. It would have to be one hell of a purple weapons to forgo that extra bonus or two an orange can spawn with at the higher ego levels.

MrViewtiful
04-15-2013, 02:13 AM
Weapon Leveling feels slow, or is it just me or is it not moving? O.o

Xanirus
04-15-2013, 02:27 AM
Weapon Leveling feels slow, or is it just me or is it not moving? O.o

With 4 or 5000 ego levels...I would think so. The game is meant to last a long time. Think of every 100 ego levels is the equivalent to 1 level.

MrViewtiful
04-15-2013, 02:29 AM
Insanity O.O

j_door8
04-15-2013, 05:14 AM
Well once you max the weapons xp bar you can no longer gain any increase in its corresponding weapon skill.

Why is maxing a weapon skill out bad isn't that what you want to do?

silvertemplar
04-15-2013, 05:21 AM
Why is maxing a weapon skill out bad isn't that what you want to do?

He's referring to the xp bar on the weapon itself. Each weapon has an "xp limit" , if it hits this limit you do not gain xp towards that weapon type and hence your weapon skill no longer increase until you change to a new weapon.

It's basically Trion's way of breaking your weapon, forcing you to use a new weapon. A better way would have been having a "repair" function to reset this bar, maybe costing you all kinds of scrib/resources to do so.

Enepttastic
04-15-2013, 05:23 AM
Why is maxing a weapon skill out bad isn't that what you want to do?

Vouric's point is, if you're doing easy stuff, may as well get some extra progression out of it by ranking up other weapon types.

EDIT:

He's referring to the xp bar on the weapon itself. Each weapon has an "xp limit" , if it hits this limit you do not gain xp towards that weapon type and hence your weapon skill no longer increase until you change to a new weapon.

It's basically Trion's way of breaking your weapon, forcing you to use a new weapon. A better way would have been having a "repair" function to reset this bar, maybe costing you all kinds of scrib/resources to do so.

Or that. Not all there at the moment.

Personally, while I did find it odd they went the route they did with weapon xp, I'm not really against it. I honestly think the issue is that it's so different from what's been done before that it's throwing us, as the player-base off.

Think of the weapon xp system as a risk vs reward scenario. You have a maxed shotgun with good stats/mods you like. Using it makes fights ALOT easier but since its exp is maxed, you don't gain any more skill experience with it because you don't have as much risk. Nothing says you have to scrap/sell it; it may be good to keep it for those tougher fights, plus as you get your skill ranks higher, it'll improve as well(via the rank up perks).

In fact, the only issue I have with the xp system is that I think that a maxed weapon should sell/scrap for more than an untouched weapon.

Pheonix580
04-15-2013, 05:25 AM
AGREEd IT SUKS HAVING TO GET A NEW WEAPON EVERY TIME TO LEVEL UP A WEAPON SKILL

Gero
04-15-2013, 07:51 AM
This thread again. Look people, the progression is SLOW, you're not gonna get cool stuff at EGO 100 like you might wish. This is good, it give a reason to keep playing. I'm at 1.1k EGO and I can destroy anyone under 1k EGO in instance damage and I only have defensive perks. Do you know why? Because I have guns thye simply do not have access to. I also have shields they can only dream of.

Stop crying that you didn't get the uber weapon of death and destruction handed out to you simply for participating.

Use a good gun when you need to and level up the overall skill with random events and stuff where it doesn't matter.


I'm pretty sure you misunderstood the thread.

I'm not saying that there's a problem with people at a higher ego rating getting some more interesting stuff....

I'm saying that I should be able to use whatever gun I enjoy using and I shouldn't have to switch to something I like less because of the silly experiance cap on weapons.

DeMoted
04-15-2013, 07:52 AM
You said Fix but you are actually trying to CHANGE the game to fit what YOU want.

Gero
04-15-2013, 07:57 AM
You said Fix but you are actually trying to CHANGE the game to fit what YOU want.


I would say 'fix' because its just an outlandishly bad system that really isn't fun for anyone. You like switching guns every level? Awesome! You can still do that. Still if I find a gun I like I should be able to use it for more than a hour.

Warjack
04-15-2013, 08:08 AM
i am Ego 2015 and i need to agree..i have my main weapons which are really good but i dont/cant use them because of the weapon leveling cap ;). Anyway...i really enyoing the game and hope they will fix/change some things to make Defiance even more better!

DeMoted
04-15-2013, 08:11 AM
I would say 'fix' because its just an outlandishly bad system that really isn't fun for anyone. You like switching guns every level? Awesome! You can still do that. Still if I find a gun I like I should be able to use it for more than a hour.

You never had a problem in other MMOs when they do it...

Gero
04-15-2013, 08:20 AM
You never had a problem in other MMOs when they do it...

What other mmos require you to change to a different or even a weaker weapon of the same type to continue leveling a weapon skill......I've never seen that in my life.

DeMoted
04-15-2013, 08:24 AM
What other mmos require you to change to a different or even a weaker weapon of the same time to continue leveling a weapon skill......I've never seen that in my life.

Every MMO does that. You have a favorite weapon like you say and you out level it so it becomes useless and no longer can use that weapon. This game at least once you hit max level you can go back to that gun you saved from the beginning, you can't do that in other MMOs.

chaosorb
04-15-2013, 08:46 AM
ROFLMMFAO!! Um, Trion doesn't fix crap in Rift which is their "money cow" what makes you think they're going to fix stuff here!?!

Enepttastic
04-15-2013, 09:00 AM
What other mmos require you to change to a different or even a weaker weapon of the same time to continue leveling a weapon skill......I've never seen that in my life.

While most don't "require" you to use a weaker weapon, many MMOs that had/have weapon skills that leveled on use were configured in such a way that using weaker weapons was the best way to level them. This is mainly due to hits = exp and not damage.

WoW used to be that way, UO is that way and I'm sure there's others.

What people don't realize is that when you wrap your head around the concept instead of beating it against a wall whining about how the exp gaining is different, you realize there's some actual logic(intentional or not) here.

The logic is simple, you don't become a master of a concept by merely using one form of it.

Let's take two handgun enthusiasts for example: Joe and Greg.

Joe, likes his Glock and shuns all other types of handguns. He's been training with that Glock for years and every time he does maintenance on it, he can be heard muttering, "This is my Glock, there are many like it but this one is mine...."

Greg, on the other hand, enjoys using all types of handguns. He trains with one model and when he feels like he's mastered it, moves on to another.

Now, let's take Joe and Greg out for a little shooting competition.

Round 1: Glocks(Competitors supply their own)
Odds are that Joe is going to win but it's doubtful the margin will be high. Joe is extremely comfortable with his gun and it is practically an extension of his hand. Greg, while not as in tune with his Glock, is still pretty close to Joe's skill level with his Glock and the extra practice with other handguns may still give him an edge(via concepts he learned while using the other models) that may still allow him to beat Joe.

Round 2: Glocks(Stock models offered by organizers)
Greg has the undisputed advantage here. While Joe is looking to compensate for the difference in feel compared to his weapon, Greg has long since learned how to adjust and will most likely be vastly more accurate than Joe is.

Round 3: Revolvers(Provided by organizers)
Same as before except Joe is even more out of his depth. Not only is he not using his preferred gun, but neither is he using something remotely similar even though they are in the same category. Greg wipes the floor with Joe when it comes to scoring.


Another example(and shorter) involving languages:
Bill knows Spanish, English and French.

Jack knows the above, as well as Latin, Portuguese, Japanese, and Chinese.

Both are able to read and write their known languages fluently. Who is the more cunning linguist?

The only thing I think that could be changed in regard to weapon levels while still preserving the concept the devs came up with is this: Allow weapons to keep leveling past level 1 at the normal rate with a chance of either improving any previous bonus or adding a new one. However, as a weapon ranks up, the amount of exp that goes to the skill gets penalized. So say you're using the Survivalist's Rifle and get enough exp to rank it up. May have gained say 3/4s of a manual rifle skill level with the exp. By leveling the rifle from 1 to 2, you then suffer a 5-10% decrease in skill exp and may only gain 5/8ths of a level. And so on, and so forth culminating with say, going from level 4 to 5 on the rifle does not give any skill exp but then maxes out the weapon.

Warjack
04-15-2013, 09:27 AM
While most don't "require" you to use a weaker weapon, many MMOs that had/have weapon skills that leveled on use were configured in such a way that using weaker weapons was the best way to level them. This is mainly due to hits = exp and not damage.

WoW used to be that way, UO is that way and I'm sure there's others.

What people don't realize is that when you wrap your head around the concept instead of beating it against a wall whining about how the exp gaining is different, you realize there's some actual logic(intentional or not) here.

The logic is simple, you don't become a master of a concept by merely using one form of it.

Let's take two handgun enthusiasts for example: Joe and Greg.

Joe, likes his Glock and shuns all other types of handguns. He's been training with that Glock for years and every time he does maintenance on it, he can be heard muttering, "This is my Glock, there are many like it but this one is mine...."

Greg, on the other hand, enjoys using all types of handguns. He trains with one model and when he feels like he's mastered it, moves on to another.

Now, let's take Joe and Greg out for a little shooting competition.

Round 1: Glocks(Competitors supply their own)
Odds are that Joe is going to win but it's doubtful the margin will be high. Joe is extremely comfortable with his gun and it is practically an extension of his hand. Greg, while not as in tune with his Glock, is still pretty close to Joe's skill level with his Glock and the extra practice with other handguns may still give him an edge(via concepts he learned while using the other models) that may still allow him to beat Joe.

Round 2: Glocks(Stock models offered by organizers)
Greg has the undisputed advantage here. While Joe is looking to compensate for the difference in feel compared to his weapon, Greg has long since learned how to adjust and will most likely be vastly more accurate than Joe is.

Round 3: Revolvers(Provided by organizers)
Same as before except Joe is even more out of his depth. Not only is he not using his preferred gun, but neither is he using something remotely similar even though they are in the same category. Greg wipes the floor with Joe when it comes to scoring.


Another example(and shorter) involving languages:
Bill knows Spanish, English and French.

Jack knows the above, as well as Latin, Portuguese, Japanese, and Chinese.

Both are able to read and write their known languages fluently. Who is the more cunning linguist?

The only thing I think that could be changed in regard to weapon levels while still preserving the concept the devs came up with is this: Allow weapons to keep leveling past level 1 at the normal rate with a chance of either improving any previous bonus or adding a new one. However, as a weapon ranks up, the amount of exp that goes to the skill gets penalized. So say you're using the Survivalist's Rifle and get enough exp to rank it up. May have gained say 3/4s of a manual rifle skill level with the exp. By leveling the rifle from 1 to 2, you then suffer a 5-10% decrease in skill exp and may only gain 5/8ths of a level. And so on, and so forth culminating with say, going from level 4 to 5 on the rifle does not give any skill exp but then maxes out the weapon.

in some points you may be right but your examples are correct if we are talking about reallife. I think its easy to understand whats the problem is when you got some orange/legendary weapons ingame. Some of them are really great cause of the improved stats but after 30min. they are getting useless because they maxed level...so the game forces you to use for example green or white weapons instead of the orange ( generally: forces you to unequip your best weapons cause they are maxed)..and this in my opinion is not a good thing!

Enepttastic
04-15-2013, 09:32 AM
Oh, I did manage to post in this topic. I really need to give myself an avatar or something so I see them easier.

Edit:


in some points you may be right but your examples are correct if we are talking about reallife. I think its easy to understand whats the problem is when you got some orange/legendary weapons ingame. Some of them are really great cause of the improved stats but after 30min. they are getting useless because they maxed level...so the game forces you to use for example green or white weapons instead of the orange ( generally: forces you to unequip your best weapons cause they are maxed)..and this in my opinion is not a good thing!

Game's not forcing you to unequip anything. It's giving you the option, use your better weapon but understand that less risk equals less reward(easier time killing things = no weapon skill exp) or use something you haven't maxed out and gain weapon and skill exp in addition to normal exp, loot, etc.

That said, since I was working on reposting a variant of what I did post, I fleshed out a concept for the weapon leveling system I mentioned earlier and am going to make a thread on that instead of threadjacking this one on it.

Tshudoe
04-20-2013, 11:05 AM
This does get quite annoying. Especially considering (in my experience) weapons do not, or barely, get better as you rise in power rating. I'm 1000+ at the moment and still using shields and grenades from when I was around 800. The only reason my guns are about the same rank is because they max out and I'm forced to replace them in order to keep increasing my skill ranking, not because they're better. My biggest issue was when I bought a tier 4 lock box and got 2 orange items, a pistol and shield. The pistol was decent, because I really wasn't using them, but the shield was horrible. The rank was over 100 higher than the one I had equipped, but it's stats were all worse. >.>

Tgreen
04-20-2013, 11:31 AM
Weapon leveling is a pain if you want to level with proper weapons by playing normally instead of power leveling with one skill after another with the throw away vendor greens that give you most exp.


It costs a lot more to add mod slots on a higher ego level weapon.
You don't get more currencies at a higher ego level.

That one is really mind boggling ... basicly you pay more to get the same just because you played the game longer.

That weapon stats don't scale with EGO is by design though.

WeeohhWeeohh
04-20-2013, 11:50 AM
Find a vender weapon you like and level it. Once leveled, sell/break it down. Buy said weapon again and repeat the process.

Theresa
04-20-2013, 01:05 PM
it is fun for those of us who understand it lol level up your weapon skill all the way then just use your one beast of a gun...this game gives you soo many weapons just use one to the max then take your mods off and put them on the next and so on if you have one you like just save it but im absolutely sure youll find a better one once your maxed, yeah it takes time to level your weapon skill all the way but its worth it for all the extras you get on that gun.