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The Skrillanator
04-16-2013, 12:21 AM
Hey Arkhunters,

As I patrol these forums searching for any bit of Lore I can get my hands on, I'm coming across an awful lot of threads that simply complain.

They lied about the patch date and now we don't have one
They Patch too much
Their customer service and support sucks
They shouldn't remove episode missions

blah blah blah blah buhhlaaaahhhh

Seriously I've seen at least 5 of each of these topics in separate threads.

Now I work in the customer service/sales industry (part time while in school), so I'm more than familiar with these sorts of issues as a customer. I can relate to those of you complaining about such issues.

It sucks. You give someone hard-earned money and expect a service in return.

But see, UNLIKE sales and sales-related customer service, I can understand real-time constant product usage, complete with updates and interrelated media, is a much more dynamic and strenuous experience.

This is opposed to buying a 2013 BMW from my lot, to update your ride, replacing your 1997 Daewoo, and getting a new, Q.C. tested, triple checked M3 complete with warranty and service packages.

Trion isn't asking for additional money. They're providing this update service to you on the daily.
They're GIVING you DLC (Do I dare pull out the ME3 card on this one for fear of being locked?).

And, additionally, this game is NOT a car that you buy once and simply use as it depreciates in value with a check-up every 30,000 mi or 10 months (which ever comes first). For a car to do what Trion and Defiance are doing, you'd need a team, every day, inspecting, checking, and changing the cogs that make your machine work.

Now imagine that team, as big as it is, is actually working on a car... make that THREE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT cars... that MILLIONS of people use not only on a daily basis but an hourly basis.
Now imagine people are STILL USING this car while they fix it.
NOW ADD TO THE MIX the fact that thousands of people using these cars, out of the millions, are ALL complaining about something.

It's [supposed to be] easy to deal with an issue with a material good. If your car is messed up, people are PAID to relieve this problem.

And the amount of anguish I'm witnessing would shock me if I wasn't currently a player.
But the thing is, Trion isn't rolling on a pile of money while everyone rages. A lot of the people you're getting mad at make what? 40? 60k a year? I know QA don't get paid NEARLY enough to deal with the bullshtako they go through.

MAYBE a top tier programmer makes just under 6 figs...

But remember this is annually. 300 days a year, they work for towards that goal.

And that work comes in the form of the daily micro-patches in launcher you see.
Trion doesn't HAVE to hold live streams. They don't HAVE to make a dynamic MMOTPS. They don't HAVE to introduce large scale client patches to the game or input new races or attempt to be the FIRST EVER tie the friggen game into a TV show.

But they do. Otherwise we'd have a crappy rip off of "Rogue Trooper" with a little dash of RE in there. (7-year-old-and-older game references FTW)

And behind all the fireworks that we're enjoying are regular-a** people, like you and I, lighting the fuse.

You have a right to complain, don't get me wrong. But there is a VERY DISTINCT difference between complaining and attacking. And when making a complaint, keep in mind that what it is you're complaining about is essentially the brainchild of hundreds of people who want it to work flawlessly just as much as YOU do, if not more so.

So all I'm asking is that people remember that. Video gaming in the past has, for the most part, been inhuman. In this case, however, it is pretty well completely powered by the sweat of others.

And if Launch, and their INCREDIBLY GRACIOUS subsequent email addressing the issues as well as GIVING US in game content for simply sticking with it, is any indication at all.

They ARE sweating to make you smile.

My two cents. :)

Beats
04-16-2013, 12:22 AM
They lied about the patch date and now we don't have one
They Patch too much

Best thread. Patch too much.

Makes me sad seeing both those thread types.

Serious though. I enjoyed the read.

Phenomenal TJ
04-16-2013, 12:26 AM
For the most part you'll find the majority of the forums are made up of two kinds of people, those that whine about things and say Trion sucks, and those that would name their first born child Trion if it would please the Trion Gods. Very nice to hear a level headed person speak, refreshing - and nice.

Edge0
04-16-2013, 12:29 AM
Well, I reported a bug and asked for a bit of help and got a response from their CSR of "k" and my ticket was closed. My encounters with support in Rift have been great, but that's definitely not the best way to start off my experience with their support in Defiance...

The Skrillanator
04-16-2013, 12:30 AM
My encounters with support in Rift have been great, but that's definitely not the best way to start off my experience with their support in Defiance...

But it's the same company, the only difference (and the LARGEST) is that the game is, what? two weeks old?

REiiGN15
04-16-2013, 12:31 AM
This game was not worth 60 bucks. Should have just gone the F2P route.

Mivo
04-16-2013, 12:33 AM
Actually, customers who complain are usually good customers. Someone who experiences problems and is upset about them, even furious and irritated, is frequently extremely happy when the issues are addressed and resolved, and feels grateful toward the company. There are some studies that show that a customer of this kind will be a more loyal and better customer than one who never had any problems in the first place.

I've been working in the customer and community field for over twenty years now, and I feel that often both sides could improve. Customers could be a little more patient, understanding and aware of the fact that there are real people on the receiving end of the abuse and the sarcasm, and companies could frequently benefit from better communication, more transparency and genuine appreciation for the people who put their food on the table (it's really easy to fall in that trap where as customer support person you look at disagreeable customers as annoyances).

The Skrillanator
04-16-2013, 12:40 AM
Oh no I totally agree, without complaining customers a product would never become better.

The reason I'm readily defending Trion here is because their service is quite evident. A lot of people on these forums seem irritated that their ticket gets logged and the change doesn't happen instantly.

I just want to remind people that this isn't math. The solution to a problem doesn't arrive immediately after adjusting your formulas or calculations. I myself have complained to various companies - hell XBL being one of them as of yesterday for forcing me to log in using my email every time I switch on my Xbox. Was my problem resolved? Not as of yet. Am I upset about that? Not at all! They communicated the reason to me, apologized, and assured me that this was being worked on and I wasn't the first with the issue. What more can I do but sit back, play my game, and hope for the best? I've complained about service at restaurants, or other retailers, etc.

Trion isn't AT&T or (in Canada) Rogers Wireless. They're not pushing you to "upgrade" or hiding anything from us as customers. They're doing what they can and I think a lot more people need to realize this.

If Trion pulled a Gearbox/2k games (RE: Duke Nukem Forever?) I'd be MOOOAAAAARRR than willing to set them on fire.

But they didn't.

The Skrillanator
04-16-2013, 02:08 AM
Servers went down for maintenance...
Cue the angry "WHY NAO?!" threads?

Elandriel
04-16-2013, 04:05 AM
I work in a similar position but besides CS I am also developer, coder and tester. Now, the number of clients I have, the size of projects I work on and the size of the team that is behind all that is nowhere near as big as Trion's, but we do the same basic thing more or less the same way.
I can't tell you how many times I've talked to different people that were not from computer industry about software pricing. And not once was I left with a good feeling afterwards. Every single discussion about software pricing (in general) I had, my end argument was "but, software is different". And every time I felt like an ******* for saying it.

BMW (or any other car company) tests their new car. They do millions of km while testing different things. They do not send their cars with batteries half full or radio with only one button working. They still manage to send a car with a serious problem into production, but that is more of an exception.
But it's a rule in software industry. We let our customers do the testing. We say "there are too many different hardware and software combinations for us to test!". And we have a point. It is almost impossible to test all those combinations. But it is also us, software industry, that uses this excuse for not testing more. We are the ones that stop testing at certain point and send our product into the world knowing what will happen.

One thing is certain: there never was and there never will be 100% working software that was made by human. Even the most simplest program that calculates two numbers and shows you the result on your screen can produce wrong result or other errors in certain cases.
It also just isn't possible for 150 people to think about everything that 1 million people are going to do. And ways they are going to use to do it. But that does not give gaming industry an excuse to do even less. That does not give them an excuse to ship barely tested products to the public saying "Oh, well. You are going to experience bugs any way, so couple more of them won't hurt".

If I could I would make every country on Earth a socialist country (no, that's not the same as communism). Worker's rights should be the top priority for any company and society, imo. That said, while I am a developer or cs guy that talks to one of my customers, I am first and foremost a professional. It saddens me to say, but that is not the same as person. I am a representative of my company, of my product and as such do not have the luxury of acting on bad feedback, even If that insulted me.
If one my of my customers was to say "You are an idiot!" I would simply put the phone down, call her/him and ask if they are prepared to talk like civilized people.
But if my customer says "Your product is idiotic!", then I have no right, as a professional, to do anything else but help this customer and try to convince them it is not so. After all they paid full price with real money. They didn't use Euros with only one side and promised us to send the other half when all our bugs were solved.

I've had good experience with Trion and their CS while I was playing Rift. I don't know if this team is the same as this, current one, that's working on Defiance. And frankly, I don't care since I don't communicate with John, Betsy or Pablo from Trion, but Trion.
And Trion, as such, doesn't have such good service for Defiance as it had (or still has) with Rift. It can all change in the future, there's no denying that.

So ... I agree that attacking anyone from Trion on a personal basis should not be part of our community, but we should keep criticising and not stop until we are satisfied. Of course that will never happen, but Defiance will also never work without bugs and other problems, so this dance is the best chance we as players and they as developers have to keep Defiance growing.

Demetrius
04-16-2013, 04:11 AM
I just hope a good server restart fixes the broken quest, one of the very first is broken, its stuck because one of the needed objectives never spawned so its all locked up

Schwa
04-16-2013, 04:39 AM
But it's the same company, the only difference (and the LARGEST) is that the game is, what? two weeks old?

Rift at two weeks had a continent's worth of content Defiance does not. And stability. And challenge, in the form of raid rifts and expert dungeons. Yes, they were challenging for a new server community and before the nerfs.

And unique faction rewards locked by faction rank. We have vendor trash in different colors.

There's such a wide gulf in quality between the two products I wouldn't believe they were from the same company if they were stripped of their names and placed side by side.

While I understand Defiance does not go for gear-based progression as Rift once did, they are going for a skill-based progression system. Yet they completely forgot to add any repeatable high-skill content to finish their design. After what we saw from episode missions tonight, I don't have high expectations for upcoming episode content, outside of DLCs.

The Skrillanator
04-16-2013, 11:13 AM
I think there's a logical reason for everything.

Like I said, Trion isn't just lying there saying "F*** the customers". Maybe the fact that Rift was a single platform release while Defiance is a triple platform triple A title? I think a port to the vastly different mediums of game play would take a long time.

Anyways, the patch released today eh?
Totally predicted: Threads complaining about the size. LOL IS THERE NO PLEASING YOU PEOPLE?

Edit: this is all speculation of course, but I feel like it was a pretty good justification. Trion worked hard and delivered, albeit a little late, and will continue to do so - the disparity between games will disappear. After all, Rift and Defiance seem to try and do very different things.

Edge0
04-16-2013, 11:17 AM
Like I said, Trion isn't just lying there saying "F*** the customers".

Tell that to their support team. Receiving responses to my tickets with "K" and then closing it seems like a nice way to tell me that whoever is manning their support staff (I've heard others have this type of response as well) doesn't care at all.

Thee Apothecary
04-16-2013, 11:18 AM
I nearly miss read your thread i took a second read and realised i didnt have to eliminate you from the player base thats a good thing

Slop
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
tell me its competent service to have a paid member of staff reply K to a customer . I didn't buy a bag of peanuts at the corner store. Not very professional.

Saraya
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
TL;DR = 'I was bored and felt the need to share with you my opinion on your opinion about someone else's opinion on the game, the show, TRION, Sci-Fi. I am aware there are tons of these threads already but I felt, truly and honestly that my views were valid, warranted and special enough that you should read them.'


Oh the joys of the Defiance forum, where everyone feels entitled to turn it into LiveJournal.com

Captain Chron
04-16-2013, 11:22 AM
Why is it these types of threads always end up as car analogies?

My complaint is fairly simple and shouldn't be condescended upon like I'm one of these whining sissies.
I simply want the bits they were very eager to take money from my PSN walet for... but have yet to deliver in over 60 hours.

Most of us are well aware of the woes of early lifecycle MMOs.
But some things are simply unacceptable.

If you take my money for a premium currency... then the premium currency had better be delivered. Bad enough I've already paid for a game that is, in essence, about a quarter finished when you factor in bugs, upcoming DLC, patches, and the like. So when I give more money than what is required for the price of admission to a game, I expect to receive what I paid for without having to make a fuss to get it.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:24 AM
I Just hope the game is playable, Im not entirely sure of the maintenance times, but it sucks that they did maintenance the only time I have off from work. As long as it comes up in a timely manner they are doing just fine.

Mivo
04-16-2013, 11:32 AM
Tell that to their support team. Receiving responses to my tickets with "K" and then closing it seems like a nice way to tell me that whoever is manning their support staff (I've heard others have this type of response as well) doesn't care at all.

If it was really just "K", it could have been a failed attempt to include a pre-defined answer via a hotkey (hit shift+K instead of control+K). I can't think of a reason why someone would reply with "K" instead of just a pre-written form response ("Thanks for the feedback, we'll be looking into this issue!") to hush you up, even if they didn't want to bother.

Dark Raven80
04-16-2013, 11:44 AM
I understand all the patches are needed and don't have any problem with the down time that makes the game better. I do however have a major issue with their nonexsistant tech/customer service that has closed bug tickets of mine for missing weapons with no response or resolution to the fact that I bought bits for lock boxes only to have those weapons vanish...

If I use a car analogy it would be- I bought a car only to have the dealer come by and take back the windshield, passenger side front tire, steering wheel, and transmission for no reason and with no explanation. Then go to the dealer who has service desk door locked and have to wait a week to find out what the deal is....

Edge0
04-16-2013, 11:45 AM
If it was really just "K", it could have been a failed attempt to include a pre-defined answer via a hotkey (hit shift+K instead of control+K). I can't think of a reason why someone would reply with "K" instead of just a pre-written form response ("Thanks for the feedback, we'll be looking into this issue!") to hush you up, even if they didn't want to bother.

Well, I've heard of others receiving similar single letter responses as well. It's poor form on their part, very poor form.