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View Full Version : Thank you for killing Sawed Off Shotguns



Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 09:23 AM
I had hoped that you had realized the folly of nerfing this weapon class, but you went through with it. It was the only weapon class I really liked despite the problems faced with it in PvE. Now it is just utterly useless; a raw damage nerf without and form of compensation other wise. Now it will be right there alongside the Magnum.

And for what? PvP balance? PvP balance won't exist as long as you have small maps and Cloak. It wasn't any fault of the Sawed Off Shotgun. People will still ***** and moan about Cloak and Shotguns.


:mad:

Cutlass Jack
04-16-2013, 09:25 AM
I'll be honest, I couldnt even tell the difference on mine post nerf. So far at least. What difference were you actually seeing in game?

Rikishi
04-16-2013, 09:26 AM
I agree. I rarely got killed by regular sawed-offs before the patch, usually it was just the explosive one (aoe damage, hell of a range compared to normal sawed-offs). They should have just nerfed those and let the normal ones be, imo.

DeMoted
04-16-2013, 09:27 AM
I had hoped that you had realized the folly of nerfing this weapon class, but you went through with it. It was the only weapon class I really liked despite the problems faced with it in PvE. Now it is just utterly useless; a raw damage nerf without and form of compensation other wise. Now it will be right there alongside the Magnum.

And for what? PvP balance? PvP balance won't exist as long as you have small maps and Cloak. It wasn't any fault of the Sawed Off Shotgun. People will still ***** and moan about Cloak and Shotguns.


:mad:

Hahaha "I am a baddie and didnt realize till my OP weapon was normalized"

Vadarian
04-16-2013, 09:27 AM
Shotguns suck anyway get over it and find a new weapon.

Zeal
04-16-2013, 09:29 AM
Grind fraggers. bane of my life.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 09:31 AM
Hahaha "I am a baddie and didnt realize till my OP weapon was normalized"

Yeah the Sawed Off was totally overpowered.

That's why everyone and their cat was using it.

Oh wait... Nobody was using it. They were using Pump Shotguns.

The issue in PvP is

1) too small maps favouring CQC
2) Cloak

Not freaking the Sawed Off, the gimpiest and least used Shotgun type in the game!

lippy827
04-16-2013, 09:32 AM
Yeah I liked the sawed off never used in pvp but it was fun on missions now it is useless. Instead of nerf they should have just takin out of game so we don't get em in lock boxes.whats next to complain about. I remember reading a thread nerf ne thing with ammo. That's where we are heading. Thanks complainers

markgatty
04-16-2013, 09:32 AM
NERF ALL THE GUNS...
why didnt they just change the cloak a little so you can see em moving around? and why not kill all the other shotguns too? ive done very little pvp but when i did i was getting killed by all shotgun types.

DeMoted
04-16-2013, 09:33 AM
Yeah the Sawed Off was totally overpowered.

That's why everyone and their cat was using it.

Oh wait... Nobody was using it. They were using Pump Shotguns.

The issue in PvP is

1) too small maps favouring CQC
2) Cloak

Not freaking the Sawed Off, the gimpiest and least used Shotgun type in the game!

If no one was using it then how do you know it is so bad?

DeMoted
04-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Yeah I liked the sawed off never used in pvp but it was fun on missions now it is useless. Instead of nerf they should have just takin out of game so we don't get em in lock boxes.whats next to complain about. I remember reading a thread nerf ne thing with ammo. That's where we are heading. Thanks complainers

Lol I doubt you have even tried them yet. Just here to cry.

Lenko
04-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Yeah the Sawed Off was totally overpowered.

That's why everyone and their cat was using it.

Oh wait... Nobody was using it. They were using Pump Shotguns.

The issue in PvP is

1) too small maps favouring CQC
2) Cloak

Not freaking the Sawed Off, the gimpiest and least used Shotgun type in the game!

My sawed off shotty almost one-shots blacklungs.
Not sure why people say they're gimp.

DeMoted
04-16-2013, 09:34 AM
My sawed off shotty almost one-shots blacklungs.
Not sure why people say they're gimp.

People are stupid. Very simple answer.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 09:37 AM
My sawed off shotty almost one-shots blacklungs.
Not sure why people say they're gimp.

The time it takes for you to reload and finish him off is longer than a Combat or Pump Shotgun would've taken to just shred his behind in the first place. People are too focused on "one-shotting" to realize the sad truth of how gimped the class is.

The DPS was very, very low and now it is even lower.

Combined with its range limitation it is just horrid. Were it not for the badassery inherent to the playstyle I would've started using Detonators and Infectors like everyone does.

Sdric
04-16-2013, 09:37 AM
Actually Sawed Offs were fine, VOT (auto) Fraggers were/ are the main problem.
High range, high magazine, high damage.
I don't even mind my legendary Fragger getting nerfed into the ground as long as they finally do something about this broken weapon.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 09:38 AM
They can't just nerf 'all' the shotguns and call it right, the shotguns all have a very big variance from one another. Especially considering the pellet composition.

Trion doesn't just listen to 'complainers' when they change things... they also collect data. Most shotguns right now are a very high risk, high reward set, to where you have to rush headfirst ( aka get real close ) to enemies to do anything proper.

Each weapon has its uses for certain situations, not all weapons are proper to each and every situation. They saw a problem in the sawn off shotguns, and they fixed it. If they see its been taken down too far.. then they'll adjust it again. There's no point in seeing a nerf as 'the end of a weapon', they'll continue patching the game as it goes on.. and many more things will change.

To brewtality: Who said you only have one weapon? If you think its too slow to recharge, then melee the opponent or switch to your other weapon to finish him off.. The fact you can two hit a blacklung makes it pretty strong.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 09:40 AM
Actually Sawed Offs were fine, VOT (auto) Fraggers were/ are the main problem.
High range, high magazine, high damage.
I don't even mind my legendary Fragger getting nerfed into the ground as long as they finally do something about this broken weapon.

They are still the problem. The patch didn't touch Pumps nor Cloak, or added larger PvP maps.


They can't just nerf 'all' the shotguns and call it right, the shotguns all have a very big variance from one another. Especially considering the pellet composition.

Trion doesn't just listen to 'complainers' when they change things... they also collect data. Most shotguns right now are a very high risk, high reward set, to where you have to rush headfirst ( aka get real close ) to enemies to do anything proper.

Each weapon has its uses for certain situations, not all weapons are proper to each and every situation. They saw a problem in the sawn off shotguns, and they fixed it. If they see its been taken down too far.. then they'll adjust it again. There's no point in seeing a nerf as 'the end of a weapon', they'll continue patching the game as it goes on.. and many more things will change.

I've been playing with the Sawed Off since launch. All through-out the main game and all the side quests. I know the weapon class inside and out.

This nerf makes no sense and is utter B.S.

Zhaocore
04-16-2013, 09:43 AM
Hahaha "I am a baddie and didnt realize till my OP weapon was normalized"

This is the kind of attitude this community does not need.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 09:43 AM
Only according to you, a random player. When the people who developed the game and know its inside decided it had to be nerfed.

Sdric
04-16-2013, 09:44 AM
Trion doesn't just listen to 'complainers' when they change things... they also collect data. Most shotguns right now are a very high risk, high reward set, to where you have to rush headfirst ( aka get real close ) to enemies to do anything proper.


Yo, that's why shotguns outdamage SMGs at midrange.
And Cloak with 50% uptime sure makes shotgunning a "high risk, high reward" and rushy-profession.

Or... maybe it is just the opposite and shotguns are op.

I mean - maybe people are just too proud to use unfair weapons like SMGs or assault rifles and every single PvP player is only using a shotgun in order to give his opponents a fair chance - right?

Mustaine
04-16-2013, 09:46 AM
Mine still 1-hits everyone and everything. Dont see anything wrong with the raw damage.

NalkorRN
04-16-2013, 09:48 AM
If no one was using it then how do you know it is so bad?

It's PvP, they compete against each other. It's like bringing a DRG-5N to an 8v8 match where tonnage and weight class are used instead of an CTF-3D, you'd be gimping yourself for bringing that along.

If PvPers realize a specific weapon or load-out is bad, they won't use it at all. Bring a bad weapon and load-out to a match and you can become the weakest link no matter how good you are. The PvPers stick with what works the best and fastest in a given map because... it works the best and fastest on a given map.

Erei
04-16-2013, 09:48 AM
The time it takes for you to reload and finish him off is longer than a Combat or Pump Shotgun would've taken to just shred his behind in the first place. People are too focused on "one-shotting" to realize the sad truth of how gimped the class is.

The DPS was very, very low and now it is even lower.

Combined with its range limitation it is just horrid. Were it not for the badassery inherent to the playstyle I would've started using Detonators and Infectors like everyone does.
Sawed off shotgun are not meant for good DPS. They are meant for good burst damage, which is quite different.
I don't know by how much they were nerfed, maybe they were nerfed to oblivion, but if they still OS in PvE, they are still doing their job. If you want to DPS, and not burst, take another shotgun.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 09:55 AM
Yo, that's why shotguns outdamage SMGs at midrange.
And Cloak with 50% uptime sure makes shotgunning a "high risk, high reward" and rushy-profession.

Or... maybe it is just the opposite and shotguns are op.

I mean - maybe people are just too proud to use unfair weapons like SMGs or assault rifles and every single PvP player is only using a shotgun in order to give his opponents a fair chance - right?

Heh, I like you. You get it Brain. Spot on.

K A S H I H A R A D
04-16-2013, 09:57 AM
I'm still downloading the patch so if anyone could drop off the actual stat numbers of Sawed-offs post nerf I would appreciate it. I'd like to gauge the level of annoyance for any PvEr who hasn't completed the related pursuits yet. I remember VOT Fraggers and the grenade versions being the only types that kept me from losing interest in the grind altogether.

Right now though I'm more concerned about the Infector nerfs since I still have five more weapon levels to grind.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 10:03 AM
Yo, that's why shotguns outdamage SMGs at midrange.
And Cloak with 50% uptime sure makes shotgunning a "high risk, high reward" and rushy-profession.

Or... maybe it is just the opposite and shotguns are op.

I mean - maybe people are just too proud to use unfair weapons like SMGs or assault rifles and every single PvP player is only using a shotgun in order to give his opponents a fair chance - right?

There's a problem with your claim, however... First off... cloak isn't a shotgun, its a complimentary power which people seem to like using with the shotgun. Cloak doesn't make shotguns overpowered... it increases their efficiency.. just as the other skills do the same thing in different ways. Decoy... you can have your enemies totally oblivious while you shoot them... overcharge? Do even more damage.

Second.. Then why am I using an smg and assault rifle for mid range rather then my good ole scattergun? That's because damage fall off is too much for the shotgun to compete when most of its pellets don't hit the mark. Not to mention SMG's and AR's do more damage, much quicker at mid/long range and tend to have much bigger crits.

If you guys want, we can play a little game.. and see just how far ahead you guys might be thinking yeah? We'll go with Brew since he's the one who started this topic.

Simple, just answer my questions, and we'll see how far it goes.

1- What is your loadout with your sawn off? And your power.
2- How would you have them nerf these shotguns?

Dajinii
04-16-2013, 10:03 AM
Sawed off shotties are powerful but only for good players who know how to shoot. Cause once you miss your chance to kill, your a goner if you slow and cant react to failed mission. Reloading sucks so if they nerf damage output, it still has to be somewhat stronger than the other 2 shotguns.

DustOfDeath
04-16-2013, 10:03 AM
whats the damage now (still patching) ? i recall it was like 1919 or such - which is actually low considerign the very long reload speed. my pistold can do way more burst dps in short time.

I could care less about tho sawed offs... but i need to get magically lvl 10 for pursuit... no effin idea how.

Zeal
04-16-2013, 10:05 AM
IMO with shotguns, they're good in anyones hands but extremely deadly in a decent players hands, like a guy who can pretty much always place both shots from a sawed off into center/head mass etc.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 10:36 AM
Cloak doesn't make shotguns overpowered...

It does actually. People with Overcharge/Decoy+Shotguns do very, very poorly in PvP. The only other power that could work is Blur, but even that doesn't even begin to compare.

Cloak+Shotguns+CQC maps is what's killing PvP, *not* Sawed Off Shotguns. Just try killing someone in PvP with a Shotgun by running up to him and actually survive to land the shot. It is very difficult. Especially with a Sawed-Off.

Nerf. Makes. No. Sense!

Asheki
04-16-2013, 10:44 AM
It does actually. People with Overcharge/Decoy+Shotguns do very, very poorly in PvP. The only other power that could work is Blur, but even that doesn't even begin to compare.

Cloak+Shotguns+CQC maps is what's killing PvP, *not* Sawed Off Shotguns. Just try killing someone in PvP with a Shotgun by running up to him and actually survive to land the shot. It is very difficult. Especially with a Sawed-Off.

Nerf. Makes. No. Sense!

I do it constantly, you don't need to be invisible to surprise someone in CQC ( its called situational awareness ), and without cloak... you can just do massive damage with things like Overcharge... Again, if you believe yourself to be right..

1- What is your sawed off loadout.
2- There needs to be a nerf, how would they do it in your opinion?

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 10:46 AM
Here's a thought: What if sawed off shotguns are nerfed not because of PvP, but PvE?

Sawed shotguns can practically 1/2-shot almost anything, but has a long reload. Overcharge let's you reload immediately. Hence Overload with sawed off shotgun can 1/2-shot anything. But of course you have to wait for overcharge to refill. What's that, perks and weapon abilities which lets you quickly refill overcharge whenever you fully reload?

EDIT: Oh, and having electric element on your sawed off also gives you enough time to reload too, so you generally get time to shotgun twice before they can retaliate.

COLD
04-16-2013, 10:46 AM
decoy perk can uncloak player just sayin... play some call of duty and you will know what really annoying ,guns or players

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 10:47 AM
I do it constantly, you don't need to be invisible to surprise someone in CQC ( its called situational awareness ), and without cloak... you can just do massive damage with things like Overcharge... Again, if you believe yourself to be right..

And would you call it overpowered? No, no you wouldn't, right? The risk vs. rewards are somewhat balanced, are they not? As such, Sawed Off Shotguns are *not* overpowered and did not deserve a damage nerf. Cloak is the problem. Surely you can follow my reasoning here? Cloak removes any and all downsides to Shotguns in general.

Cloak and the tiny PvP maps are the problems. If they had started with bigger maps, people would've complained about Cloak+Sniper Rifles instead. Cloak is just imbalanced in PvP.

As for how to fix it? I dunno. But one thing is for sure; nerfing Sawed Off Shotguns will have fixed nothing.

Rainman
04-16-2013, 10:48 AM
Someones Mr Angry today...

Asheki
04-16-2013, 10:51 AM
And would you call it overpowered? No, no you wouldn't, right? The risk vs. rewards are somewhat balanced, are they not? As such, Sawed Off Shotguns are *not* overpowered and did not deserve a damage nerf. Cloak is the problem. Surely you can follow my reasoning here?

Cloak and the tiny PvP maps are the problems. If they had started with bigger maps, people would've complained about Cloak+Sniper Rifles instead. Cloak is just imbalanced in PvP.

As for how to fix it? I dunno. But one thing is for sure; nerfing Sawed Off Shotguns will have fixed nothing.

According to sawed off users, the sawed off shotguns are still working great.

And you still haven't answered my questions, but I can understand if you need time to think. So you say cloak is the problem.. here's a new question then.

3) How do you fix cloak?

K A S H I H A R A D
04-16-2013, 10:52 AM
Here's a thought: What if sawed off shotguns are nerfed not because of PvP, but PvE?

Sawed shotguns can practically 1/2-shot almost anything, but has a long reload. Overcharge let's you reload immediately. Hence Overload with sawed off shotgun can 1/2-shot anything. But of course you have to wait for overcharge to refill. What's that, perks and weapon abilities which lets you quickly refill overcharge whenever you fully reload?

Viable but doubtful. Mainly because you can already murder everything in the campaign in half the time without any unnecessary preparation or EGO usage what so ever with a full auto FRC Assault Rifle, Flashbangs and Ground Pounder Detonator.

Wrenito
04-16-2013, 10:53 AM
Oh this guy again (op).

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Separately, that ground pounder was also nerfed. :p

And I added that small edit of electric element, which lets you get two shots in anyway, without overpower. Overpower just makes it well, more overpowered.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 10:55 AM
According to sawed off users, the sawed off shotguns are still working great.

And you still haven't answered my questions, but I can understand if you need time to think. So you say cloak is the problem.. here's a new question then.

3) How do you fix cloak?

I did actually. I said I don't know how to fix Cloak. It is imbalanced not only in certain aspects of it, but in it's entirely. As I said though, this nerf of Sawed Off damage will accomplish nothing to solve any sort of Shotgun problem in PvP. It was pretty much doomed when they decided to go with Cloak as an EGO Power.

It is a complicated issue that takes way more than a damage nerf to solve. The fact that they nerfed the Sawed Off while most people use Pump in PvP just adds to the stupid.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 10:56 AM
Honestly I don't see an issue with making sawed off shotguns go from 2k base damage to 1k base damage hell that 2k was more than any rocket launcher lol

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 10:57 AM
Honestly I don't see an issue with making sawed off shotguns go from 2k base damage to 1k base damage hell that 2k was more than any rocket launcher lol
Don't forget it's 2k x2 because you fire two shots at a time.

iChinglish
04-16-2013, 10:58 AM
I get killed by a lot more grind fraggers or infectors than I do by sawed offs.

Infectors got nerfed, sawed offs got nerfed, grind fraggers did not. So now, grind fraggers will be abused even more in PvP. Yay...? -.-

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 10:59 AM
Also with the other shotguns capping around 800 damage that 2k was just outrageous. I know it reloads slower but that isn't any reason to make it do more than the 1k.

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 10:59 AM
Honestly, I still don't know why people think it's meant as a PvP nerf. After all, everyone has said plenty of reasons why it doesn't fix PvP at all.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:02 AM
I did actually. I said I don't know how to fix Cloak. It is imbalanced not only in certain aspects of it, but in it's entirely. As I said though, this nerf of Sawed Off damage will accomplish nothing to solve any sort of Shotgun problem in PvP. It was pretty much doomed when they decided to go with Cloak as an EGO Power.

How so? There's plenty of games with invisibility powers that run great.. Team Fortress 2 anyone? The problem with Sawed off shotguns isn't about Shotguns, its about sawed off shotguns.

Small pvp instances are needed, you don't have a choice but to have them simply because if they were too big then it would be a pain for small numbers to actually achieve anything proper.. If you don't want to deal with close combat.. then you can go fight in shadow wars which have much bigger and varied terrain.

Cloak is just a means to once in a while get an easier drop on people.. who can still kill you if you do it poorly, a group of people will easily dispose of a cloak guy probably before he can even kill anyone, weapons like bmg, decoy's perk, poop shoes, and so on can mess up anyone with cloak when said cloaker could just look for red dots on the map and come up behind the enemies to achieve the same effects.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:02 AM
Honestly, I still don't know why people think it's meant as a PvP nerf. After all, everyone has said plenty of reasons why it doesn't fix PvP at all.

Indeed. Tho tbh I hate pvp and will only do it for the achievements and pursuits and will never touch it outside of that so to me a broken pvp is no big deal. Hell I won't even touch regular xbox games with pvp multiplayer like CoD or Halo lol.

Wynce
04-16-2013, 11:03 AM
I'd love it if they changed sawed off shotguns with slugs to.. you know, be effective at more than 5 feet? Why bother with slugs at all, if you're going to be that close anyways?

ryzo
04-16-2013, 11:04 AM
I'll be honest, I couldnt even tell the difference on mine post nerf. So far at least. What difference were you actually seeing in game?

how are u guys playing the nerf is ment to come with this patch are u guys online?

czern
04-16-2013, 11:04 AM
i think sawed offs were fine i tried using them in pvp and always felt the pump was better for it but TO FIND A REASON TO USE the sawed ofF you need it to one shot the gamed npc enemies or its pointless now it will be even harder to find A REASON TO USE IT

MrViewtiful
04-16-2013, 11:04 AM
sawed off shotguns have a long reload... seemed fine the way it was

aprisma
04-16-2013, 11:05 AM
I hope this nerv is also for the npcs.
I always get killed by this guys with the shield when they sneak behind me and I am to tired to notice them :-)

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 11:05 AM
Honestly I don't see an issue with making sawed off shotguns go from 2k base damage to 1k base damage hell that 2k was more than any rocket launcher lol

You don't? Have you taken into account the risk involved in using the two weapon classes? Range? I agree that Rocket Launchers are rather gimped too, but your argument is just so flawed...

Cutlass Jack
04-16-2013, 11:06 AM
how are u guys playing the nerf is ment to come with this patch are u guys online?

The game was briefly up after the patch went live. Then they took the servers down again. I was in game for about a half hour. Not enough for extensive testing. I kind of wish I wrote down the pre-patch numbers now, since I wasn't noticing a difference from what I remembered.

SymbiottePhage
04-16-2013, 11:06 AM
Now if they can add like pvp tokens per game / pvp gear / more maps, I think it'd make the pvp more enjoyable.

Wynce
04-16-2013, 11:07 AM
i think sawed offs were fine i tried using them in pvp and always felt the pump was better for it but TO FIND A REASON TO USE the sawed ofF you need it to one shot the gamed npc enemies or its pointless now it will be even harder to find A REASON TO USE IT

Agreed. In PVE when I was using my sawed off, if anything took more than 1 shot at point blank range, it was annoying. If anything took more than two, it was useless.

I could just be using an AR or SMG and kill them much faster. Not to mention at range where I have better cover.

ryzo
04-16-2013, 11:07 AM
Indeed. Tho tbh I hate pvp and will only do it for the achievements and pursuits and will never touch it outside of that so to me a broken pvp is no big deal. Hell I won't even touch regular xbox games with pvp multiplayer like CoD or Halo lol.

same here though I do respect the "cod rage" virus and agree that if its op in pvp it should be killed off a lil but can they change the power of a wep for pvp only? I meen they change how much ammo you have and stuff for pvp so it cant be that much harder for the damage can it? if it is btw don't hate on me lol just makin a comment don't feel 1 way or the other on it I use combat shotty if any others have to low mags or to long reloads for my taste

Wrenito
04-16-2013, 11:08 AM
I wasn't noticing a difference from what I remembered.That won't matter to the OP. He's on a QQ crusade because "a change" was made to his preferred pvp *cough* pve weapon. Nevermind the change is probably hardly noticeable, he enjoys the attention.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:08 AM
You don't? Have you taken into account the risk involved in using the two weapon classes? Range? I agree that Rocket Launchers are rather gimped too, but your argument is just so flawed...

I use the sawed off all the time on my Blur loadout I close in bust off a shot then melee everything to death so it doing less damage will not effect my play style with it at all.

ryzo
04-16-2013, 11:09 AM
The game was briefly up after the patch went live. Then they took the servers down again. I was in game for about a half hour. Not enough for extensive testing. I kind of wish I wrote down the pre-patch numbers now, since I wasn't noticing a difference from what I remembered.

oh ok that's for replying cutlass so bored out my mind was lookin forward to the patch but its let us down a little today

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 11:09 AM
i think sawed offs were fine i tried using them in pvp and always felt the pump was better for it but TO FIND A REASON TO USE the sawed ofF you need it to one shot the gamed npc enemies or its pointless now it will be even harder to find A REASON TO USE IT
Sawed off sticky grenade shotgun with electric element worked wonders in PvE. Massive AoE damage, Electric stun gives you time to reload and fire again assuming anything survived. (Overcharge let's you fire once more, for the overkill, and is available rather often thanks to all the full reload ego recharge passives, which you do often with sawed off shotguns)

Not to mention you can just use hit and run tactics to compensate for needing to reload.


Agreed. In PVE when I was using my sawed off, if anything took more than 1 shot at point blank range, it was annoying. If anything took more than two, it was useless.

I could just be using an AR or SMG and kill them much faster. Not to mention at range where I have better cover.

Unless you're using one of the nade shotguns, which has the benefit of being AoE (hence bypassing shield lancer shields, and killing groups at once).

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:10 AM
Only according to you, a random player. When the people who developed the game and know its inside decided it had to be nerfed.

Yeah, because companies never make mistakes. Go look at the Mass Effect 3 patch list, go see guns being nerfed, buffed, and nerfed again, going back and forth to find proper "Balance". OP has made a legitimate topic, and the community on these forums are horrible.

Cutlass Jack
04-16-2013, 11:11 AM
That won't matter to the OP. He's on a QQ crusade because "a change" was made to his preferred pvp *cough* pve weapon. Nevermind the change is probably hardly noticeable, he enjoys the attention.

Hey I'm with him as probably the only other PvE Sawed Off Shotgun user. I dont PvP at all and its my favorite weapon type. Which is why I was asking him what differences he actually noticed in game since I'd be raging (or at least sadfaced) too if it were major.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:11 AM
Yeah, because companies never make mistakes. Go look at the Mass Effect 3 patch list, go see guns being nerfed, buffed, and nerfed again, going back and forth to find proper "Balance". OP has made a legitimate topic, and the community on these forums are horrible.

I never said a company can't make mistakes, but they make a lot less then a player who hasn't been part of the game's development, and can only see the numbers the game allows him to see.

sushiking89
04-16-2013, 11:12 AM
Just get rid of cloak or nerf it on PVP, it's ridicules. It's like they dont want you to use another skiill other then cloak for pvp.

Wynce
04-16-2013, 11:13 AM
Sawed off sticky grenade shotgun with electric element worked wonders in PvE. Massive AoE damage, Electric stun gives you time to reload and fire again assuming anything survived. (Overcharge let's you fire once more, for the overkill, and is available rather often thanks to all the full reload ego recharge passives, which you do often with sawed off shotguns)

Not to mention you can just use hit and run tactics to compensate for needing to reload.



Unless you're using one of the nade shotguns, which has the benefit of being AoE (hence bypassing shield lancer shields, and killing groups at once).

I'd love to be using courier shotguns to level this weapon skill. Unfortunately, I never find the stupid things and they're not available for purchase from any vendor to my knowledge.

Freyar
04-16-2013, 11:13 AM
Just get rid of cloak or nerf it on PVP, it's ridicules. It's like they dont want you to use another skiill other then cloak for pvp.

Because they'll totally axe the primary active skill that people CHOOSE at the start of the game.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:14 AM
I never said a company can't make mistakes, but they make a lot less then a player who hasn't been part of the game's development, and can only see the numbers the game allows him to see.

The company clearly thought it was balanced prior to the update. It's hit and miss, they have to play around with it and see how it feels. The fact that I rarely ever see this gun type being used is a point in itself. You might as well say Beta testing is useless because players dont know what's under the hood exactly (unless youre on pc, you can probably dig into the files and check exact numbers, which would make your point collapse if they save any of it locally), but a lot of the time developers dont find an issue till a lot of players hop in and find it.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:14 AM
Just get rid of cloak or nerf it on PVP, it's ridicules. It's like they dont want you to use another skiill other then cloak for pvp.

1) Getting rid of cloak completely ruins countless builds both with and against cloak, makes many weapon/perk combos useless.. And forces people who start on cloak to wait almost forever to have a valid pvp build for a 'power' that can be emulated by coming up behind an enemy and shooting him in the back of the head.

2) how would -you- nerf it?

To Vilyn: While feedback is always appreciated... you have to remember that they would never act solely on it.. They do draw their own numbers which they compare with people's feedback. They keep an eye on what happens in the game in a way that players can't see, and can collect data freely while again.. players are only able to see what the game itself allows them to see.

Wrenito
04-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Hey I'm with him as probably the only other PvE Sawed Off Shotgun user. I dont PvP at all and its my favorite weapon type. Which is why I was asking him what differences he actually noticed in game since I'd be raging (or at least sadfaced) too if it were major.They needed to scale back the top end dmg to prevent the insta-gib. It should still be effective as a big hit secondary. Seriously hope you two aren't using it as a pve primary.

Thee Apothecary
04-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Yeah the Sawed Off was totally overpowered.

That's why everyone and their cat was using it.

Oh wait... Nobody was using it. They were using Pump Shotguns.

The issue in PvP is

1) too small maps favouring CQC
2) Cloak

Not freaking the Sawed Off, the gimpiest and least used Shotgun type in the game!

everyone was using pump or auto shotguns not sawed off's because sawed off's if you miss your dead

Beldhan
04-16-2013, 11:16 AM
my main concern was the syphon version of this weapon, before the patch it was possible to get 5-7 proc on one shoot... that was overpowered by far!

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:16 AM
I'd love to be using courier shotguns to level this weapon skill. Unfortunately, I never find the stupid things and they're not available for purchase from any vendor to my knowledge.

I get courier shotguns from tier 4 lock boxes all the time I sold a dozen of them yesterday alone. I have also picked them up in co-op maps from time to time so they aren't to hard to aquire. Well now they might be because of the keycode earning decrease lol.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 11:19 AM
That won't matter to the OP. He's on a QQ crusade because "a change" was made to his preferred pvp *cough* pve weapon. Nevermind the change is probably hardly noticeable, he enjoys the attention.

Will you just stop with the trolling? I'm not gonna bite.

Sdric
04-16-2013, 11:19 AM
There's a problem with your claim, however... First off... cloak isn't a shotgun, its a complimentary power which people seem to like using with the shotgun. Cloak doesn't make shotguns overpowered... it increases their efficiency.. just as the other skills do the same thing in different ways. Decoy... you can have your enemies totally oblivious while you shoot them... overcharge? Do even more damage.

Second.. Then why am I using an smg and assault rifle for mid range rather then my good ole scattergun? That's because damage fall off is too much for the shotgun to compete when most of its pellets don't hit the mark. Not to mention SMG's and AR's do more damage, much quicker at mid/long range and tend to have much bigger crits.

If you guys want, we can play a little game.. and see just how far ahead you guys might be thinking yeah? We'll go with Brew since he's the one who started this topic.

Simple, just answer my questions, and we'll see how far it goes.

1- What is your loadout with your sawn off? And your power.
2- How would you have them nerf these shotguns?

An atomic bomb on the floor is not that dangerous - but if you got a plane to drop it out of it becomes the pure horror.
Cloak just is the plane, shotguns are the bomb.
Cloak sure is strong, but even with a pistol or a SMG which are also supposed to be close combat weapons it's not half as powerful as combined with a shotgun.

Damage falloff is too high?
You just made my day1
Try the +8 barrel and no SMG or pistol user EVER has a chance against you.

Again I say, try an SMG at mid range and a shotgun.
SMGs have such a huge falloffdamage drop you can place a whole magazine into your enemies head, if he has a rhino shield you'll have to reload at least twice.
Same for pistols.
The effective range, the range they're powerful at, is the same for all 3 - sure you won't hit a guy at long range with your shotgun; but at the very same range a SMG or pistol will maybe do 7~9 damage per shot which basically equals nothing.

How I would nerf Shotguns?
I would decrease their falloff damage by 8.
The current range of unmodded shotguns already is extremely high even without an upgrade.
Decreasing the falloff damage by 8 would at least force people to actually trade of 1-shot-headshots with their crit-multiplier for the incredible mid-range power they currently have instead of granting them both for free.

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
I get courier shotguns from tier 4 lock boxes all the time I sold a dozen of them yesterday alone. I have also picked them up in co-op maps from time to time so they aren't to hard to aquire. Well now they might be because of the keycode earning decrease lol.

But normal mobs should drop weapons more often how, so that compensates. :p

And yes, a courier shotgun with electric element was pretty much amazing for most PvE content as a primary weapon, save for extreme extra HP enemies (elite versions of high hp enemies), bosses (which already have high HP anyway), or snipers (cause range, and they like to spawn on top if tiny platforms, making it hard to land the grenades right). So just use an AR for those situations.

greatdividers
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
As I said though, this nerf of Sawed Off damage will accomplish nothing to solve any sort of Shotgun problem in PvP.

so Trion officially stated that they nerfed sawn-offs because of pvp, or are you just speculating? because it's equally as likely that they are nerfed because of pve.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
1) Getting rid of cloak completely ruins countless builds both with and against cloak, makes many weapon/perk combos useless.. And forces people who start on cloak to wait almost forever to have a valid pvp build for a 'power' that can be emulated by coming up behind an enemy and shooting him in the back of the head.

2) how would -you- nerf it?

To Vilyn: While feedback is always appreciated... you have to remember that they would never act solely on it.. They do draw their own numbers which they compare with people's feedback. They keep an eye on what happens in the game in a way that players can't see, and can collect data freely while again.. players are only able to see what the game itself allows them to see.

I clearly realize that, but anybody who has played a game that is actively being updated and balanced continually know that things will fluctuate back and forth, I wouldnt be surprised to watch it get re buffed (or some of its stats buffed). The point of the thread is to draw attention to the issue, not for somebody to come in and say "developers know all". If the developers knew all maybe the game would actually work on the xbox, and they wouldnt need all these patches or the beta test or anything. I'm increasingly frustrated with this community. The whole purpose of this game is to go against power creep, but when a weapon set is left in the dust to the point nobody wants to use it, there's an issue. It's not even situational, other shotgun types are by far superior.

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 11:23 AM
How I would nerf Shotguns?
I would decrease their falloff damage by 8.
The current range of unmodded shotguns already is extremely high even without an upgrade.
Decreasing the falloff damage by 8 would at least force people to actually trade of 1-shot-headshots with their crit-multiplier for the incredible mid-range power they currently have instead of granting them both for free.

By the way, I believe explosive-type weapons (including the flaregun, and all shotgun grenade type weapons) have absolutely no falloff damage.

Sdric
04-16-2013, 11:25 AM
By the way, I believe explosive-type weapons (including the flaregun, and all shotgun grenade type weapons) have absolutely no falloff damage.

You're right - they don't.


//other topic
Ah, well about cloak:
Just increase the time it takes to re-stealth by about 1.25 seconds, that should be enough to make other ego powers more attractive.
I wouldn't touch the shield recharge upon re-stealth though, it's quite a tactic element combined with Rhino shields.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:27 AM
An atomic bomb on the floor is not that dangerous - but if you got a plane to drop it out of it becomes the pure horror.
Cloak just is the plane, shotguns are the bomb.
Cloak sure is strong, but even with a pistol or a SMG which are also supposed to be close combat weapons it's not half as powerful as combined with a shotgun.

Damage fallof is too high?
Try the +8 barrel and now SMG or pistol user EVER has a chance against you.

Again I say, try an SMG at mid range and a shotgun.
SMGs have such a huge falloffdamage drop you can place a whole magazine into your enemies head, if he has a rhino shield you'll have to reload at least twice.
Same for pistols.
The effective range, the range they're powerful at, is the same for all 3 - sure you won't hit a guy at long range with your shotgun; but at the very same range a SMG or pistol will maybe do 7~9 damage per shot which basically equals nothing.

How I would nerf Shotguns?
I would decrease their falloff damage by 8.
The current range of unmodded shotguns already is extremely high even without an upgrade.
Decreasing the falloff damage by 8 would at least force people to actually trade of 1-shot-headshots with their crit-multiplier for the incredible mid-range power they currently have instead of granting them both for free.

An atomic bomb is dangerous whether it is in a plane or not, it can be blown up on the spot. Simply moving behind an opponent with said shotgun is a plane as well, and a lot more viable then simply using cloak because its always available.

Again, shotguns have pellets, pellets which don't fly as straight as a bullet, I've always had more success with weapons like smg's and pistols at mid range.. Which I hope you know what mid-range is.. and you're not confusing it with point blank range.

I'm not sure what kind of game you're playing if your pistol is apparently only doing that much damage mid range ( and those weapons also have fallout dmg mods in case you thought shotties were somehow special ). With the added bonus that most pistols can have a ridiculously high crit dmg which makes them awesome mid range, and at taking out certain enemies. The wolfhound is a pretty awesome pistol which can be turned into an awesome mid range killing machine while needing to only land one bullet while the shotgun must land all of its pellets to be effective which is difficult to do at long range... not to mention shotguns have poor critical hits.

Pistols and SMG's can shoot much further -normally without mods - then shotguns can, and its their inherent benefits.

To Vylin: I,m still going to use it, others are still using it. Its just the first days of the patch... Henceforth there is no reason to say it doesn't work until more data is collected. And who said dev's know all? I'm pointing out that they would know their reasons more then a random player.

Wrenito
04-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Will you just stop with the trolling? I'm not gonna bite.The only one trolling is you. How many threads we need about sawed offs from you? The gun is terrible for pve, you can drop the charade.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 11:32 AM
so Trion officially stated that they nerfed sawn-offs because of pvp, or are you just speculating? because it's equally as likely that they are nerfed because of pve.


The reason why I don't think they are nerfing it on PvE grounds is because I don't think they're that clueless and stupid.

greatdividers
04-16-2013, 11:34 AM
The reason why I don't think they are nerfing it on PvE grounds is because I don't think they're that clueless and stupid.

but you think they're clueless and stupid enough to nerf sawn-offs to fix the cloak+shotgun combo?

.............

0/10

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:35 AM
Pistols and SMG's can shoot much further -normally without mods - then shotguns can, and its their inherent benefits.

To Vylin: I,m still going to use it, others are still using it. Its just the first days of the patch... Henceforth there is no reason to say it doesn't work until more data is collected. And who said dev's know all? I'm pointing out that they would know their reasons more then a random player.

People use crappy guns all the time just because they like them. It doesnt mean they arent outclassed. I'd use some Mass Effect examples because it fits so well but im not sure how many here would get any of the references.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:37 AM
People use crappy guns all the time just because they like them. It doesnt mean they arent outclassed. I'd use some Mass Effect examples because it fits so well but im not sure how many here would get any of the references.

*Raises hand* lol

K A S H I H A R A D
04-16-2013, 11:37 AM
People use crappy guns all the time just because they like them. It doesnt mean they arent outclassed. I'd use some Mass Effect examples because it fits so well but im not sure how many here would get any of the references.

I unfortunately would for I spent years trolling BSN's ME3 MP forum.

...

I wouldn't wish the horrors I witnessed on a daily basis upon any of my worst enemies. ...Except maybe Jim. He's a real ****.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 11:37 AM
but you think they're clueless and stupid enough to nerf sawn-offs to fix the cloak+shotgun combo?

.............

0/10

Yes I do. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't see any legit reason to nerf it at all but I can see the reasoning behind a PvP based nerf. As misguided as it may be.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:39 AM
People use crappy guns all the time just because they like them. It doesnt mean they arent outclassed. I'd use some Mass Effect examples because it fits so well but im not sure how many here would get any of the references.

or because they're not as rubbish as some people make them out to be? Maybe they've found ways to continue using them? Maybe people play Dan because he's awesome and much better then the usual Shotos? Maybe Daigo should have never quit playing Ryu because of a nerf and wouldn't have then been perfected?

Maybe people should play the game ( which is just in its beginning ) and then see where it leads to before they claim that Trion might not know what they're doing? Maybe some people argue about a patch that just came out and haven't extensively tested it yet to see if what they say is true?

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 11:40 AM
The reason why I don't think they are nerfing it on PvE grounds is because I don't think they're that clueless and stupid.
Why would nerfing it on PvE grounds be clueless and stupid?

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:40 AM
Yes I do. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't see any legit reason to nerf it at all but I can see the reasoning behind a PvP based nerf. As misguided as it may be.

My thing with calling it a nerf for pvp is that I have spent hours in pvp for the achievements and pursuits and I have yet to see a single sawed off everyone is always using the pump action even in the Shadow Wars and yes I watch the killed with text more than the match because it more interesting lol.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:41 AM
I unfortunately would for I spent years trolling BSN's ME3 MP forum.

...

I wouldn't wish the horrors I witnessed on a daily basis upon any of my worst enemies. ...Except maybe Jim. He's a real ****.

I am permanently banned off those forums. So easy example, that game had a few guns that were "best of the best", but people would still use lower class guns like the revenant, mantis, phalanx, avenger, seriously anything that wasnt a black widow, or harrier, or claymore, or reegar (im just gonna make the list short, there are others obvs), were just underpowered, but people liked the variety so they used them anyhow.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:42 AM
I am permanently banned off those forums. So easy example, that game had a few guns that were "best of the best", but people would still use lower class guns like the revenant, mantis, phalanx, avenger, seriously anything that wasnt a black widow, or harrier, or claymore, or reegar (im just gonna make the list short, there are others obvs), were just underpowered, but people liked the variety so they used them anyhow.

Indeed the trade offs for some weapons doing massive damage just were not worth it. That is how I feel about the sawed off in Defiance.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:43 AM
or because they're not as rubbish as some people make them out to be? Maybe they've found ways to continue using them? Maybe people play Dan because he's awesome and much better then the usual Shotos? Maybe Daigo should have never quit playing Ryu because of a nerf and wouldn't have then been perfected?

Maybe people should play the game ( which is just in its beginning ) and then see where it leads to before they claim that Trion might not know what they're doing? Maybe some people argue about a patch that just came out and haven't extensively tested it yet to see if what they say is true?


I literally hate this community. I dont know if its the culmination of the 3 types of players or if its just the type of gamers this draws in, but jesus christ these forums have one of the worst player communities I have seen since Mass Effect 3.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:44 AM
I literally hate this community. I dont know if its the culmination of the 3 types of players or if its just the type of gamers this draws in, but jesus christ these forums have one of the worst player communities I have seen since Mass Effect 3.

Is that directed to me as well?

Grimno
04-16-2013, 11:44 AM
They nerfed the sawed off?

I guess you could say the guns...

*puts on shades then pauses, relizing they don't know anything about sawed off shotguns thus has no clever word play to finish the joke. They google Sawed off Shotgun blueprints, looking at the different parts of it to try and pull something from it*

Give me ooone second... I got this, I got this...

Hmmm, short-barreled is a name used for it, but only in the SBS...noone would get the 'coming up short" reference..

*browses more*

Hmmm.. a lot of shotguns are modifed by "cutting the barrel short." It's... doable.

Alright...
Ahem

I guess you could say the gun's...

...getting cut down to size.

YYEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH~

Cutlass Jack
04-16-2013, 11:45 AM
I literally hate this community. I dont know if its the culmination of the 3 types of players or if its just the type of gamers this draws in, but jesus christ these forums have one of the worst player communities I have seen since Mass Effect 3.

Really? As a BSN regular, I find these forums comparatively relaxing.

Greyhawk
04-16-2013, 11:45 AM
They nerfed the sawed off?

I guess you could say the guns...

*puts on shades then pauses, relizing they don't know anything about sawed off shotguns thus has no clever word play to finish the joke. They google Sawed off Shotgun blueprints, looking at the different parts of it to try and pull something from it*

Give me ooone second... I got this, I got this...

Hmmm, short-barreled is a name used for it, but only in the SBS...noone would get the 'coming up short" reference..

*browses more*

Hmmm.. a lot of shotguns are modifed by "cutting the barrel short." It's... doable.

Alright...
Ahem

I guess you could say the gun's...

...getting cut down to size.

YYEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH~

LMAO you deserve an internet cookie for that.

jvp
04-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Sawed off shotguns are a pain in the *** to use in PvE. They aren't as good as the other shotguns in PvE.

I'm currently trying to level mine to 10, and trust me, it's not that fun.

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 11:46 AM
My thing with calling it a nerf for pvp is that I have spent hours in pvp for the achievements and pursuits and I have yet to see a single sawed off everyone is always using the pump action even in the Shadow Wars and yes I watch the killed with text more than the match because it more interesting lol.

Now you're getting it. That's why I'm "whining".

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:50 AM
or because they're not as rubbish as some people make them out to be? Maybe they've found ways to continue using them? Maybe people play Dan because he's awesome and much better then the usual Shotos? Maybe Daigo should have never quit playing Ryu because of a nerf and wouldn't have then been perfected?

Maybe people should play the game ( which is just in its beginning ) and then see where it leads to before they claim that Trion might not know what they're doing? Maybe some people argue about a patch that just came out and haven't extensively tested it yet to see if what they say is true?

No, I quoted you for fun. But the hostility and argument flaming is atrocious. Just talk about the damned sawed off, your arguments for or against the nerf, and quit the derailing of other garbage. This whole "developers wanted it so deal with it" attitude is just miserable. The forums are a place for people to spread comments/concerns or just discuss the game. If he wants to discuss the sawed off nerf that he finds to be unnecessary, then discuss it, or you really have no purpose in the thread. If I want to go make a thread about how my infiltrator armor isnt red and somebody started discussing how unimportant it was to fix it so get over it (which they would), it'd be just as frustrating as this. Although that's not directly gameplay related, thats my example. I see more topic derailment arguments here than in most places, and extremely conflicting community attitudes. It's obvious the devs wanted to try a nerf, but that doesnt mean they werent wrong or that parts of it should be buffed, or that the OP isnt allowed to make an argument for why he is against the nerf. ANd if you are all for the nerf then by ALL MEANS make your own counter argument. But the argument that the devs say so...doesnt work. Thats not a discussion, nor is what most people use to argue a post about in here. /rant about this community

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:52 AM
No, I quoted you for fun. But the hostility and argument flaming is atrocious. Just talk about the damned sawed off, your arguments for or against the nerf, and quit the derailing of other garbage. This whole "developers wanted it so deal with it" attitude is just miserable. The forums are a place for people to spread comments/concerns or just discuss the game. If he wants to discuss the sawed off nerf that he finds to be unnecessary, then discuss it, or you really have no purpose in the thread. If I want to go make a thread about how my infiltrator armor isnt red and somebody started discussing how unimportant it was to fix it so get over it (which they would), it'd be just as frustrating as this. Although that's not directly gameplay related, thats my example. I see more topic derailment arguments here than in most places, and extremely conflicting community attitudes. It's obvious the devs wanted to try a nerf, but that doesnt mean they werent wrong or that parts of it should be buffed, or that the OP isnt allowed to make an argument for why he is against the nerf. ANd if you are all for the nerf then by ALL MEANS make your own counter argument. But the argument that the devs say so...doesnt work. Thats not a discussion, nor is what most people use to argue a post about in here. /rant about this community

If I were you, I'd read the topic from a few pages back. Just saying.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:52 AM
Really? As a BSN regular, I find these forums comparatively relaxing.

I havent been on the BSN since prior to the final MP dlc, ive been banned, so i dont know how it is now. But I know back then it was the most miserable community ever, until I came here and it felt 10 times worse, because the community is larger and seemingly pretty angry at everything.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:53 AM
If I were you, I'd read the topic from a few pages back. Just saying.


Couldnt care enough about your Devs argument that i saw from the first couple of pages to read anything else you say. And I also unleashed my general hate for this community in that post, its not all about you.

K A S H I H A R A D
04-16-2013, 11:56 AM
Really? As a BSN regular, I find these forums comparatively relaxing.

Agreed... but if one branch of the forum community appears to be given free reign to dictate how another plays this game I'm going to feel a wicked case of deja vu coming on asap.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 11:56 AM
Couldnt care enough about your Devs argument that i saw from the first couple of pages to read anything else you say. And I also unleashed my general hate for this community in that post, its not all about you.

Not my problem then. Hate all you want, its all there is on this forum most of the time when there's any form of disagreement.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:57 AM
Not my problem then. Hate all you want, its all there is on this forum most of the time when there's any form of disagreement.

YOU are a problem. So there's that.

Vilyn117
04-16-2013, 11:58 AM
Agreed... but if one branch of the forum community appears to be given free reign to dictate how another plays this game I'm going to feel a wicked case of deja vu coming on asap.
PC MASTER RACE TO THE RESCUE. Seriously, I play on PC and those guys were craaaaaazy elitests.

Asheki
04-16-2013, 12:03 PM
YOU are a problem. So there's that.

I hope you understand that I value your opinion, but it doesn't change my own. You should probably get back on the subject of shotguns instead of just being confrontational.

Doowi
04-16-2013, 12:05 PM
*hugs his FRC Scattergun*

Oh and my Cloak with all perks for increased time and damage while in cloak!

Alcohol Fueled Brewtality
04-16-2013, 12:06 PM
*hugs his FRC Scattergun*

Oh and my Cloak with all perks for increased time and damage while in cloak!


*Shakes fist*

This is your doing, boy!

Oldschoolratz
04-16-2013, 04:16 PM
CLOAK and SAW-OFF SHOT GUN : Noobs PVP !!!!!!!!

Kitten Mittons
04-16-2013, 04:24 PM
And speaking of weapons that were nerfed to death, can we at least have the magnum back in exchange for killing sawed-offs?? Like, so it'll be useful in some way shape or form? I swear, they took the two most badass cowboy-type weapons and effectively removed them from the game.

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 04:52 PM
So lets end this, or some of it.
Brewtality, this is for you.

I agree that cloak + shotty is a boss combo, no one is saying its not deadly. Its a good combo.
I get killed by it, I get it, everyone rages when they get killed he same way all the time, it is ridiculous.
But lets entertain the idea that your not closed to reason and ask, could the problem be you?
Lets look at this objectively. If you get killed by running head first into an area and get blindsided by a "semi" invisible enemy (id like to state that like the predator, they shimmer) though very hard to see, maybe you should switch it up.
Not to accuse you of playing CoD or MW or anything, but this isn't that.

Dodge roll backwards and shoot them in the face.
You can't do that? Get better at it.
you cant get better? Try something else.
You keep getting killed by invisible people? Try a class that makes them visible or stop rushing, not that your are, but I have no idea how someone with enough mental prowess to navigate this game keeps dying the same way.

You know what I do when I keep getting sniped? Go inside.
If I get hit by invisible shottys? Realize thats how they play and adapt (non-noob status) I get higher and toss a few nades, watch the mini map for blips and ADAPT.
Get better, don't get madder.
Your not going to beat everyone and you will never be the best, someone will always kill you in a way you hate.

The fact that others are able to get over and around it means the burden of advancement is not on the weapon but the player.
Though in the case of a face to face "let's pull the trigger at the same time" situation I will agree there is no comparison to a good shotgun; a situation that, unless your to stubborn to try something new should, only happen once in a blue moon.

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 04:59 PM
I would also like to state the following common nerd phrases that help to prove my later point.
"There is no way anyone can win if you always use Hadoken."
"Jump kick beats anyone in Mortal Kombat."
"You can't touch Dhalsim."
"They are winning because they are camping."
"They pay for the game, so we can't beat them."

All things you can overcome by not doing the same thing over and over again.

Frostlight
04-16-2013, 05:04 PM
....
you cant get better? Try something else.
You keep getting killed by invisible people? Try a class that makes them visible or stop rushing, not that your are, but I have no idea how someone with enough mental prowess to navigate this game keeps dying the same way.

The fact that others are able to get over and around it means the burden of advancement is not on the weapon but the player.
Though in the case of a face to face "let's pull the trigger at the same time" situation I will agree there is no comparison to a good shotgun; a situation that, unless your to stubborn to try something new should, only happen once in a blue moon.

Pretty much this. Work your loadouts. Try using a combo of:
- Decoy (Primary)
- Sensor Sweep
- Rear Guard
- Materialize
- Fortified Stance/Hunger Down

A combination of that with others, or something similar. You have ego powers and perks, use them. Combat in this game is great because it's not only a reflex game, but a thinking game as well.

IntenseSpirit
04-16-2013, 05:07 PM
The fact you can two hit a blacklung makes it pretty strong.

"Two hit" isn't an appropriate way to look at weapons like this. Sawed-off shotguns deliver all of their damage at once, but at the cost of a long time without dealing damage. ARs on the other hand deal low damage at any one time, but are pretty much constantly dealing it. An AR can deal just as much damage over the same period of time, people just get angry that shields and health go from full to zero at one time rather than over the course of a few seconds.

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 05:07 PM
mlmlkdmslfkmasldkmflaskdf

DeMoted
04-16-2013, 05:07 PM
CLOAK and SAW-OFF SHOT GUN : Noobs PVP !!!!!!!!

Like the kids that cry Noob-tube in CoD.

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 05:08 PM
All this leads into my point, get over it.
If you use or don't use, and others use or not use effects you, make a change. Grow up. It's a game, play it or don't. Let us not sit and complain when we could be gaining the ability to overcome those that oppose us.

Good men did not give there lives in the pale wars so that you could give up. Work hard and win, or would you rather they make every gun IRL$ purchases so you dont have to try? Then you can just not put in effort and get what you want. Go play Dust.

Frostlight knows what the deal is.

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 05:09 PM
I had hoped that you had realized the folly of nerfing this weapon class, but you went through with it. It was the only weapon class I really liked despite the problems faced with it in PvE. Now it is just utterly useless; a raw damage nerf without and form of compensation other wise. Now it will be right there alongside the Magnum.

And for what? PvP balance? PvP balance won't exist as long as you have small maps and Cloak. It wasn't any fault of the Sawed Off Shotgun. People will still ***** and moan about Cloak and Shotguns.


:mad:

Sawn-offs were horrible for everyone in PvP...I got oneshot by a guy who came around the corner and surprise-clicked the trigger on it.
They needed to be nerfed

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 05:10 PM
You are for to win guy.

Jack Siwel
04-16-2013, 05:10 PM
The fact that they nerfed the Sawed Off while most people use Pump in PvP just adds to the stupid.

I haven't PvP'd yet, but, I did pick Cloak because I've played other games where the power to turn invisible worked to my advantage. I also use a pump shotgun with a 15 shot clip. Oh, and my secondary weapon is a bolt action sniper rifle with 13 shots.

I love shooting at targets with the sniper rifle and as they run toward me I cloak and run behind them to shoot them in the back a few times. Love the little knockback and disruption that it does...and I like the way they dissolve when I kill them.

Ok, back to the discussion...

IntenseSpirit
04-16-2013, 05:11 PM
Sawn-offs were horrible for everyone in PvP...I got oneshot by a guy who came around the corner and surprise-clicked the trigger on it.
They needed to be nerfed

Why? The same thing would have happened if it were a real shotgun and a real corner.

DarthAxis
04-16-2013, 05:13 PM
Why? The same thing would have happened if it were a real shotgun and a real corner.

Omg, why would I think that reality was a factor in a game? oh, bleh bleh bleh." I agree, shotguns, like a flare, are not meant to be DPS. They go boom and you hit the floor.

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 05:17 PM
Why? The same thing would have happened if it were a real shotgun and a real corner.

If this is your argument, any bullet to the head would be a one-shot. And an alien weapon that dissolves bodies would also be a one-shot no matter where it hit you.

IntenseSpirit
04-16-2013, 05:19 PM
If this is your argument, any bullet to the head would be a one-shot. And an alien weapon that dissolves bodies would also be a one-shot no matter where it hit you.

Your argument was that they should be nerfed because someone killed you with one.

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 05:22 PM
Your argument was that they should be nerfed because someone killed you with one.

No, it was because any unskilled person with anxiety issues can be scared by someone coming around a corner and accidentally pull the trigger and kill me.

If my Flare Gun hitting them in the chest, exploding, AND catching them on fire isn't a 1hit kill, then a blast to the chest from a normal shotgun shouldn't be.

IntenseSpirit
04-16-2013, 05:30 PM
No, it was because any unskilled person with anxiety issues can be scared by someone coming around a corner and accidentally pull the trigger and kill me.

If my Flare Gun hitting them in the chest, exploding, AND catching them on fire isn't a 1hit kill, then a blast to the chest from a normal shotgun shouldn't be.

I'll give you that one, but there's no reason for any of this PvP-centered weapon balancing should happen in the first place. Infectors and sawed-offs are pretty much useless with the new nerfs.

IntenseSpirit
04-16-2013, 05:31 PM
It looks like the Flare got the worst nerf though... almost half damage.

DustOfDeath
04-16-2013, 05:32 PM
infectors aswell.. the 10 range is horrible... i need to run damn close to mobs to hit them.


but... what happened with sawed offs? just looted heavy sawed off and its 1919 damage still.

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 05:34 PM
It looks like the Flare got the worst nerf though... almost half damage.

Haven't logged in to see that yet, that's my main weapon for PvE/PvP. I will be pretty pissy if it's been nerfed to 500dmg, but it won't change my stance on the issue lol

I'm willing to admit that it may be a little too badass

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Haven't logged in to see that yet, that's my main weapon for PvE/PvP. I will be pretty pissy if it's been nerfed to 500dmg, but it won't change my stance on the issue lol

I'm willing to admit that it may be a little too badass

Would make it in line with all the other grenade-type weapons, frankly. Lower base damage, but with DoT component to compensate.

Also, I still don't get why people think the sawed off shotgun nerf is for PvP..

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 05:55 PM
Would make it in line with all the other grenade-type weapons, frankly. Lower base damage, but with DoT component to compensate.

Ya, but the blast radius is VERY low, like...maybe 2ft lol

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 06:01 PM
Ya, but the blast radius is VERY low, like...maybe 2ft lol

Which is about the same as combat shotguns nade launchers, which is what I'm comparing with. :p

Separately, just checked, they seem to have increased the base crit from 2.5x to 3x?

SaintRaze
04-16-2013, 06:05 PM
Which is about the same as combat shotguns nade launchers, which is what I'm comparing with. :p

Separately, just checked, they seem to have increased the base crit from 2.5x to 3x?

I honestly don't care how bad they nerf weapons for PvP...just means people will be forced to develop some skills to play, and it makes it fun :D

armedpoop
04-16-2013, 06:17 PM
I do it constantly, you don't need to be invisible to surprise someone in CQC ( its called situational awareness ), and without cloak... you can just do massive damage with things like Overcharge... Again, if you believe yourself to be right..

1- What is your sawed off loadout.
2- There needs to be a nerf, how would they do it in your opinion?

Your trying so hard to be logical as to why they berfed it, but what it boils down to is the fact that cloakers can outdamage overchargers.
Breakdown: 5 points into Overcharge=30% damage increase. 1 point into Cloak and 3 into Shadowed Strike = 30% damage increase. Now combine that with sucker punch and you get + 15 from behind! Why do cloakers get to match overcharge levels of damage?

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 06:37 PM
Because the main benefit of overcharge is not the damage boost, but the instant reload.

Also, why does everyone (or at least lots of people) insist that Sawed off shotgun nerf is PvP related?

NeverMiss
04-16-2013, 06:44 PM
there are 3 types of shotgun
Combat Shotgun - good high rate of fire
Pump Shotgun - tweaking high damage with medium rate of fire
Sawed Off - high damage close ranged

Pump shotgun was where the problem was

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 07:02 PM
Unless you're talking about PvE, where Sawed off nade shotguns easily outdamages the other two in sheer effectiveness.

Which is why I think this is a PvE nerf, not a PvP one.

Kitten Mittons
04-16-2013, 07:04 PM
Unless you're talking about PvE, where Sawed off nade shotguns easily outdamages the other two in sheer effectiveness.

Which is why I think this is a PvE nerf, not a PvP one.

So make the range on the 'nade one absurdly low. Sawed-offs are supposed to have crap range anyway.

Lyokira
04-16-2013, 07:09 PM
So make the range on the 'nade one absurdly low. Sawed-offs are supposed to have crap range anyway.

Problem with that is that they'll have to entirely recode explosive damage. Currently all sources of explosive damage (including flaregun and nade shotguns) have no damage fallout from range, only from the point of effect (of which both pistol and shotgun nade launches have none off, in exchange for vastly smaller AoE radius)

EDIT: I might be mistaken, and that you meant shorter trajectory... which has the opposite effect of making nade shotguns a lot worse, because of self-damage. The absurd high damage from sawed off nade shotguns can 1-shot yourself if you're in range.