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View Full Version : F2P or SUB poll speak your mind



stormaaron
12-16-2012, 01:12 AM
Saw multiple threads about F2P (free to play) or SUB (pay to play) with mixed answers so i made a poll for it http://poll.pollcode.com/p8xp2t

Paladin
12-16-2012, 01:16 AM
This is a really really tough decision.....subs bring a balanced game but with fewer players and f2p brings many players but a system I just never liked :/.

AmazingPatt
12-16-2012, 01:30 AM
This is a really really tough decision.....subs bring a balanced game but with fewer players and f2p brings many players but a system I just never liked :/.

exactly my thought . i voted sub too

i will enjoy more the game if it was less player(but mostly quality player since they will pay for a game they enjoy and like) with a nice balance into it . =D

vampero
12-16-2012, 05:16 AM
Saw multiple threads about F2P (free to play) or SUB (pay to play) with mixed answers so i made a poll for it http://poll.pollcode.com/p8xp2t

You should have added B2P ( Buy 2 Play) to the poll. I got a feeling that it will be like Guild Wars 2 buy the game with no Sub and have a in game store.

Fikticio
12-16-2012, 09:34 AM
You should have added B2P ( Buy 2 Play) to the poll. I got a feeling that it will be like Guild Wars 2 buy the game with no Sub and have a in game store.

I agree with what you said.

And if you look at the interview that was given to Zam. They said it was to be something with several options. But first you will still have to buy the box, after that it will be your option to SUB or go F2P. Its clear that SUB players will have advantages that the F2P will have to pay for.

Phatality
12-16-2012, 12:49 PM
SWTOR just did that. They went F2P with a Sub option. i think its worked out for them since the servers got over loaded already. a lot of people want F2P to try the game out then go sub when they want to pvp/raid and get more in depth with all the game has to offer.
With Defiance im not sure this model would work since a lot of the game is based around group play and pvp.

Personally i would love a Sub system since it makes the player base more loyal and conscious about how they play the game and interact with each other.

Although F2P has been know to bring in more cash to the company, so it makes it a very tempting solution for long term sustainability. but i think since rift is still sub based and strong as ever there is no reason Defiance can't follow in its wake.

Tuchaka
12-16-2012, 12:54 PM
F2P all the fluff they sell i won't be buying anyway and i like paying less, as far as jerks go that is what ignore feature is for. A lot of people that want games to be sub only know they are gonna go broke buying cosmetic items so they are asking the game to save them....from themselves. Statistically the people that complain the most about F2P are its biggest consumers.

Fikticio
12-16-2012, 03:32 PM
F2P all the fluff they sell i won't be buying anyway and i like paying less, as far as jerks go that is what ignore feature is for. A lot of people that want games to be sub only know they are gonna go broke buying cosmetic items so they are asking the game to save them....from themselves. Statistically the people that complain the most about F2P are its biggest consumers.

I could not find your answer there. From the first phrase you say you look in favor of F2P. And you are clearly saying that you would not spend a single penny in the store. But my question, as we now that it will be most likly at least buy the box then chose, will you buy the box (or pay the download from steam or elsewhere)?

Tuchaka
12-16-2012, 09:40 PM
ya i am fine buying the box generally that is referred to as buy to play , like GW2.

Plasma
12-16-2012, 11:21 PM
you forgot a 3rd option the choice sub = access to everything and dlc for free, f2p = buy micro transaction items plus buy dlc. so sub pay 180 a year for sub and enjoy everything, ftp pay 30+ a year on item and pay 5-15 per dlc. so lets say their are 4 dlc aka patch in a year that's 20-60 plus your item that's 50-90 a year far cheaper then sub.
that's how i think it should work and its how swtor and secret world are runnig

AmazingPatt
12-16-2012, 11:31 PM
so far i love how they want a do it :
Dealspwn: So there'll be a one off-purchase...

Hill: Right.

Dealspwn: ... how then will you monetise it?

Hill: What we've talked about - it's not 100% but this is what we're looking at doing - is a dual system where somebody can decide that they want to grab little-by-little individual microtransactions and individual download content or they can subscribe and get all of that stuff included.

Dealspwn: So there'll be a premium membership or you can cherry-pick what you want?

Hill: Exactly.

Dealspwn: Will there be experience boosters and other time-savers?

Hill: Boosters are one of the things we're looking at, for sure. What we don't want to do is sell weapons. Cosmetic customisation - not just you but the vehicles you can drive. Those are the two primary drivers, besides download content which will only be available if you actually purchase it.

if they make it work like that i would totally be cool with it =D

( http://www.dealspwn.com/defiance-interview-senior-producer-rob-hill-124125 )

Paladin
12-16-2012, 11:39 PM
so far i love how they want a do it :
Dealspwn: So there'll be a one off-purchase...

Hill: Right.

Dealspwn: ... how then will you monetise it?

Hill: What we've talked about - it's not 100% but this is what we're looking at doing - is a dual system where somebody can decide that they want to grab little-by-little individual microtransactions and individual download content or they can subscribe and get all of that stuff included.


Dealspwn: So there'll be a premium membership or you can cherry-pick what you want?

Hill: Exactly.

Dealspwn: Will there be experience boosters and other time-savers?

Hill: Boosters are one of the things we're looking at, for sure. What we don't want to do is sell weapons. Cosmetic customisation - not just you but the vehicles you can drive. Those are the two primary drivers, besides download content which will only be available if you actually purchase it.

if they make it work like that i would totally be cool with it =D

( http://www.dealspwn.com/defiance-interview-senior-producer-rob-hill-124125 )

I wonder how that'll work though :S. Are they going to provide the premiums with exclusives, free content, or weekly goodies that would be in the microtransaction shop?

AmazingPatt
12-17-2012, 02:22 AM
I wonder how that'll work though :S. Are they going to provide the premiums with exclusives, free content, or weekly goodies that would be in the microtransaction shop?

that something i wonder too . maybe it give premium example 5 exp booster per week free but if you want more you need to pay more . but personally if i pay for premium i don't want to have to pay for micro-transaction too =)

Gibson Khaine
12-17-2012, 02:46 AM
so far i love how they want a do it :
Dealspwn: So there'll be a one off-purchase...

Hill: Right.

Dealspwn: ... how then will you monetise it?

Hill: What we've talked about - it's not 100% but this is what we're looking at doing - is a dual system where somebody can decide that they want to grab little-by-little individual microtransactions and individual download content or they can subscribe and get all of that stuff included.

Dealspwn: So there'll be a premium membership or you can cherry-pick what you want?

Hill: Exactly.

Dealspwn: Will there be experience boosters and other time-savers?

Hill: Boosters are one of the things we're looking at, for sure. What we don't want to do is sell weapons. Cosmetic customisation - not just you but the vehicles you can drive. Those are the two primary drivers, besides download content which will only be available if you actually purchase it.

if they make it work like that i would totally be cool with it =D

( http://www.dealspwn.com/defiance-interview-senior-producer-rob-hill-124125 )



This is basically a little like Star Wars the Old Republic.

Is free to download but your limited in how much of it you can do.
You need Micro Transactions for limited access to Pvp warzones and end game raiding content. Some purchases through micro transactions give a you a weeks access.

Subscribing for a month gives you more access as a 'prefferred status' customer

While those that have purchased the game and continue a subscription gain unlimited access to all content. which you can supplement with Micro transactions (of which you gain free 'credit' to purchase while your subscribing)

I think its a very good system and although alot of criticism has been made that Starwars going to free to play was a 'fail' system is in fact brilliant.

Those committed to many aspects of the game will find that a subscription gives them unlimited access to Warzones/pvp battleground and end game pve content.
Those that want access by micro transactions will be able to pay for the 5 or 6 PVP warzone access for the week for a cheaper price but if they have tyhe time or want to play more they will be better off subscribing.

This means you can choose which revenue fits your 'play time' more than anything.

The Micro transaction shop other than access for non subscribers also contains Vanity items that give no game benefit other than customizable appearances or minor experience boosts.

All in all this is probably the best system Ive seen to give a great revenue stream for Trion and Scifi as well as not being 'pay to win' but actually 'pay to play more' for the less casuals.

deusex2
12-17-2012, 02:11 PM
This isn't SWTOR system, but D&D Online system. The one that came up as a last ditch effort to save failing mmo title(which it did in abundance), and the one that every other failing p2p mmo has adopted(DCUO, TSW and SWTOR are recent examples).

I might as well refrain from from investing into Defiance for a while, if TRION needs that system right off the bat to keep the game going.

Plasma
12-17-2012, 04:12 PM
This isn't SWTOR system, but D&D Online system. The one that came up as a last ditch effort to save failing mmo title(which it did in abundance), and the one that every other failing p2p mmo has adopted(DCUO, TSW and SWTOR are recent examples).

I might as well refrain from from investing into Defiance for a while, if TRION needs that system right off the bat to keep the game going.

its the nature of today market i don't like it, i wish we could get out of this slump where people don't want to pay for games or content. i hope that that developers come to the realization that this is not sustainable for growth and go you what your going to pay for games again and if you don't like it too bad.

deusex2
12-17-2012, 04:41 PM
its the nature of today market i don't like it, i wish we could get out of this slump where people don't want to pay for games or content. i hope that that developers come to the realization that this is not sustainable for growth and go you what your going to pay for games again and if you don't like it too bad.


Yeah, and what's ironic is that in the end those people who are attracted by "free" part end up paying much more for less, in the long run.

As for growth, well, f2p attracts lots of people, but the problem is the quality of those people, not to mention the fact that f2p basically leaves people unpunished, whereas p2p system tends to keep troublemakers in check, more or less.

So yeah, it's good for business, but bad for us-consumers, at least for those who realize those simple facts.

Paladin
12-17-2012, 05:07 PM
Isn't f2p already out of the question? GameStop already holds pre orders for standard, limited, and collectors editions each at their respective prices of $60, $100, and $150. Now we just wait to see how the Microtransaction shop/subscription system will work

deusex2
12-18-2012, 02:46 AM
Isn't f2p already out of the question? GameStop already holds pre orders for standard, limited, and collectors editions each at their respective prices of $60, $100, and $150. Now we just wait to see how the Microtransaction shop/subscription system will work

If that is the case, then Trion probably aims for buy2play model, the same as GW1,2 uses. And considering how Arena Net handles item shop in their game, well I just hope Trion isn't planning to have some stupid Black Lion chests with stupid chest keys being bought for real cash.

Plasma
12-18-2012, 02:07 PM
f2p does not guarantee free to buy the box will most likely have a price.
selling 100,000 boxes at 50 would net them 5mill that's a good start to paying off the game

Carnak
12-18-2012, 04:18 PM
I posted this in one of the other business model threads but it looks like a lot people missed it.

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=31361&storypage=2


We haven’t picked one 100% yet, but we’re looking at a boxed product, so you’ll go to the store and you’ll buy it, or potentially download it through something like PSN. And then you have a choice – it’s dual – where you can decide “I want to pick things and pay for them piecemeal”, or “I can pick a subscription, and get all of that stuff as I go, and get all of the DLC free as long as I’m subscribed.”

Chaotica
12-19-2012, 03:53 PM
You should have added B2P ( Buy 2 Play) to the poll. I got a feeling that it will be like Guild Wars 2 buy the game with no Sub and have a in game store.

This seems to make the most sense. With the XBL and Play stores, adding another for the PC seems the most logical. There's also the fact I doubt a console gamer would pay a subscription. :)

AmazingPatt
12-19-2012, 05:18 PM
This seems to make the most sense. With the XBL and Play stores, adding another for the PC seems the most logical. There's also the fact I doubt a console gamer would pay a subscription. :)

surprisingly console gamer when they like their game they don't mind subscribing or going premium like battlefield 3 and cod elite and pay a extra 50$ almost . even phantasy star and final fantasy had subscription fee and are still running ( i don't know if they are still popular trough xP ) but paying subscription is not big issue for console =D

Paladin
12-19-2012, 05:40 PM
surprisingly console gamer when they like their game they don't mind subscribing or going premium like battlefield 3 and cod elite and pay a extra 50$ almost . even phantasy star and final fantasy had subscription fee and are still running ( i don't know if they are still popular trough xP ) but paying subscription is not big issue for console =D

This is actually very true. However Phantasy Star is no longer running. I feel though that if subs become the only form of payment they should offer a deal where purchasing subscription includes XBL membership

AmazingPatt
12-19-2012, 06:08 PM
This is actually very true. However Phantasy Star is no longer running. I feel though that if subs become the only form of payment they should offer a deal where purchasing subscription includes XBL membership

you are referring to monster hunter in japan right? where every month you get a 30 day gold . so technically you don't lose your gold which i like a lot . and i didn't know psu is down =( i thought only the demo was taking out .

Cpt Blud
12-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Please Trion. No subs. Subs are the old model. FTP with paid xp multipliers, sidegrades and vanities at a dollar a pop is where its at nowadays. Anyway, not everyone has a credit card or tops up the console wallet all that often.

Go free 'episodic' DLC updates and plot critical premium DLC, a couple per season with season cliffhanger epic raid content. Yay.


DLC content:

Thinking there of raids themed on some mcguffin (tech item or VIP rescue) talked about or seen briefly in an episode, the DLC giving the players some backstory of what said mcguffin is for and why the show needed it.

Critical raids would be foreshadowed in the show, 'Omg, we need to send Bravo Team to secure that super secret technology thing, or we all gonna be in trouble!', (yes im not a pro writer) if the players fail hard the show ought to reflect that in saying 'Bravo Team flatlined sir!' or if the majority of players beat the content, 'Bravo Team report victory sir!'. And an episode draws on that as something of importance to the overall war effort, with grunts running with slo-mo asplosions detailing player efforts against the monster horde, and the building of some new awesome AA lasers back at base for example.

TL;DR, Missions and raids in tandem with the show plot. Paid DLC MUST influence the show, free DLC MUST immerse gamers into important plot points. All of it must make sense in context of the show, otherwise why bother.

However, never, ever, shovel out some godawful mess like 'A rift has opened! Go to Blahtown and murderize the evil [insert cheesy World Boss]! You must be taller than this sign to enter. Pay nao and receive triple fanboy points!'.

Why pay? People pay for their cable tv to watch the show so its not a huge leap to think, "Hey, if a drop a couple bucks i get to do THAT AWESOME THING IN THE SHOW JUST NOW but in the game! and look cool while I'm at it!, and I get a new shiny look for my gun and a pet!, and dude! players can influence the show, thats mindbendingly cool! take my money!".


Microtransaction Store:

Weapons, abilities and such, but never ever gear so uber that the vanilla players feel paywalled and the 'short on time, long on stupid' gamer can purchase away all further game challenge into the corner sobbing to itself.

Include interesting 'sidegrades' that allow broad character customisation, within strict constraints, so no uber builds that crush everything.

Any sidegrade, item, deployable, weapon, armor, skillbook, or whatever.. Any at all with no exception, should operate only one way. If there are skill values x and y, the item can raise x a little at the expense of a little y. Within a budget constraint capped by an EGO pool or something. That is playstyle customization not pay to win.

So a player could 'spec' as, lets say, a medic but suck a bit more in the tanking category. Which is a tank players job, who in turn sucks a bit more at the medical category.

Include many many 'look and feel' variants of gear, and vanity items like clothes, hair and armor decals. All ranging from free to paid, paid reserved for the real pretty or high tech stuff.


Fun stuff:

Autofollowing pets like a busted repair drone called Sparks hovering over the shoulder, or a little tame world mob, the red one with the freakish maw, called Mr Nibbles naturally, growling occasionally. Pets confer no abilities other than looking cool, marking some milestone like beta involvment or achievement like a kill on a worldboss. Or a gold gun or whatever. Just nothing really obnoxious like flying mounts.


And thats all I'm writing for now. Mr Nibbles wants his nap. O\/\/\/O Rawrff?

Paladin
12-19-2012, 09:56 PM
you are referring to monster hunter in japan right? where every month you get a 30 day gold . so technically you don't lose your gold which i like a lot . and i didn't know psu is down =( i thought only the demo was taking out .

Yeah I felt the same way :(

deusex2
12-20-2012, 11:03 AM
Please Trion. No subs. Subs are the old model. FTP with paid xp multipliers, sidegrades and vanities at a dollar a pop is where its at nowadays. Anyway, not everyone has a credit card or tops up the console wallet all that often.

Go free 'episodic' DLC updates and plot critical premium DLC, a couple per season with season cliffhanger epic raid content. Yay.


DLC content:

Thinking there of raids themed on some mcguffin (tech item or VIP rescue) talked about or seen briefly in an episode, the DLC giving the players some backstory of what said mcguffin is for and why the show needed it.

Critical raids would be foreshadowed in the show, 'Omg, we need to send Bravo Team to secure that super secret technology thing, or we all gonna be in trouble!', (yes im not a pro writer) if the players fail hard the show ought to reflect that in saying 'Bravo Team flatlined sir!' or if the majority of players beat the content, 'Bravo Team report victory sir!'. And an episode draws on that as something of importance to the overall war effort, with grunts running with slo-mo asplosions detailing player efforts against the monster horde, and the building of some new awesome AA lasers back at base for example.

TL;DR, Missions and raids in tandem with the show plot. Paid DLC MUST influence the show, free DLC MUST immerse gamers into important plot points. All of it must make sense in context of the show, otherwise why bother.

However, never, ever, shovel out some godawful mess like 'A rift has opened! Go to Blahtown and murderize the evil [insert cheesy World Boss]! You must be taller than this sign to enter. Pay nao and receive triple fanboy points!'.

Why pay? People pay for their cable tv to watch the show so its not a huge leap to think, "Hey, if a drop a couple bucks i get to do THAT AWESOME THING IN THE SHOW JUST NOW but in the game! and look cool while I'm at it!, and I get a new shiny look for my gun and a pet!, and dude! players can influence the show, thats mindbendingly cool! take my money!".


Microtransaction Store:

Weapons, abilities and such, but never ever gear so uber that the vanilla players feel paywalled and the 'short on time, long on stupid' gamer can purchase away all further game challenge into the corner sobbing to itself.

Include interesting 'sidegrades' that allow broad character customisation, within strict constraints, so no uber builds that crush everything.

Any sidegrade, item, deployable, weapon, armor, skillbook, or whatever.. Any at all with no exception, should operate only one way. If there are skill values x and y, the item can raise x a little at the expense of a little y. Within a budget constraint capped by an EGO pool or something. That is playstyle customization not pay to win.

So a player could 'spec' as, lets say, a medic but suck a bit more in the tanking category. Which is a tank players job, who in turn sucks a bit more at the medical category.

Include many many 'look and feel' variants of gear, and vanity items like clothes, hair and armor decals. All ranging from free to paid, paid reserved for the real pretty or high tech stuff.


Fun stuff:

Autofollowing pets like a busted repair drone called Sparks hovering over the shoulder, or a little tame world mob, the red one with the freakish maw, called Mr Nibbles naturally, growling occasionally. Pets confer no abilities other than looking cool, marking some milestone like beta involvment or achievement like a kill on a worldboss. Or a gold gun or whatever. Just nothing really obnoxious like flying mounts.


And thats all I'm writing for now. Mr Nibbles wants his nap. O\/\/\/O Rawrff?


DLC is a shortcut to hell. Sooner or later everyone start abusing DLC system to squeeze more cash out of players. I'd rather pay for a well earned expansion pack. Because when the dev makes you pay 50-60$ for it, they have no choice but to make it attractive to you, whereas DLC delivers a quest or two and rips you off for 10$.

MechPilot
12-20-2012, 11:42 AM
Sub..



preferably a Bi-monthly Sub.....So Damned tired of the the "Free-to-Play, Drop real money to buy power" Fad that has swept over the franchise. Just saying the name world of tanks is like a swear word to me.

JellyBean
12-20-2012, 03:56 PM
F2P, We are already paying to purchase the game initially. As long as the item store doesn't make it unbalanced or create super powered players I think it'll be a great system. I can see paid and unpaid dlc content aswell. paid for the larger portions. I wouldn't be too crazy to pay 60 bucks for a game and then bust out a credit card number for a sub. not cool

Atheosis
12-20-2012, 04:57 PM
This game will totally flop if it requires $60 up front and/or has subscription fees. The only way this game builds up a decent playerbase is with a F2P model. As long as they keep the microtransactions from being Pay 2 Win I think it's really the only way to go if they truly want the game to be successful.

Plzbanme
12-20-2012, 05:12 PM
F2P: You can get at every part of the game with in reason. You can go any where, reach max level, get any weapon and use it. You can buy boosters that make things go faster, not get anything right away. You can buy skins or model swap outs so your guy looks badass. Free players may have a smaller backpack but still a reasonable amount of room. Character slot may also be limited for free players but enough for 2 or 3 slots.
This is what I think a good F2P game is, Blacklight does this pretty damn good, you put in time and you get more out and shop prices are well with in reach, one good game and you can get most things. This one also seems to make the most money, TF2 had a 12x increase in income after going free to play. I find this the best way to make money if you have a large enough time for content. I love Free to play.

Sub:You pay monthly for a game no matter how much you play. I believe this was good about 5 to 10 years ago but now it is just not wroth it. The devs get a fixed income from each member and people don't always want to pay monthly just to play a game, WoW keeps dropping to around a million active accounts in between releases.

P2W: Mostly like free to play for free players, but paying players get to go everywhere, frees don't. Paying players can buy something that makes them strong and get boosts right away that makes them stronger(going lvl 1 to 10). Free players mostly can't get anything in the store and only have one slot

P2P: EVE, I don't have much time with P2P game but EVE is one.

B2P: Only good for single player game, good for players for mmos but I don't see as much money here as F2P

Black_wraith
12-21-2012, 12:20 AM
both are terrible ideas. How about one time purchase for 60$ and non micro transaction or stupid subscription. The game will die before it even comes out. No one on console want to do that crap and pc people really dont like micro transaction . None of those games do well in the long run. Both ideas are stupid.


Ok pay for the game 1x!! then add on dlc or have a bf3 premium idea. I have high hope for this game, but i wont touch it if i have micro F2p is stupid hands down or sub. Both will kill the game incredibly fast.

deusex2
12-21-2012, 08:09 AM
Again with DLCs...What's with people so willing to throw their money away into the wind?!

First of, Defiance is a MMO, not multiplayer game like BF3, so please no need for lame DLC, it's what ruins games.

Second, once again, why are you, people, so willing to pay 10$ for a raid or two?!

And third, DLC for MMO is a source of blatantly OP stuff. Every time stuff comes out as DLC for MMO, it's something OP, which basically forces you to buy it in order to compete with others. There are very few MMOs out there who doesn't do that.

So please, no DLC in MMO, enough! Open cosmetics store and flood it with cosmetic items all you like, throw in xp/cash boosters and even add ability to buy in-game cash for real money(that's the best way to fight with gold-sellers)! Just don't do any DLC stuff! Feel free to release expansion packs every now and then, but don't do DLCs!

Atheosis
12-21-2012, 08:14 AM
both are terrible ideas. How about one time purchase for 60$ and non micro transaction or stupid subscription. The game will die before it even comes out. No one on console want to do that crap and pc people really dont like micro transaction . None of those games do well in the long run. Both ideas are stupid.


Ok pay for the game 1x!! then add on dlc or have a bf3 premium idea. I have high hope for this game, but i wont touch it if i have micro F2p is stupid hands down or sub. Both will kill the game incredibly fast.

Good luck getting people to invest $60 in a brand new MMO IP.

deusex2
12-21-2012, 08:54 AM
Good luck getting people to invest $60 in a brand new MMO IP.

Uh, that's what people normally do, actually.

Ultima12
12-21-2012, 09:53 AM
I vote sub all the way. Free to play usually means pay to win.

Chandrae
12-21-2012, 10:37 AM
I vote sub all the way. Free to play usually means pay to win.

I don't get why people are against paying $10.00 - $15.00 a month for many, many hours of entertainment.

You can't even take the ol' lady to the movies for that.

:confused:

Atheosis
12-21-2012, 10:44 AM
Uh, that's what people normally do, actually.

Actually they don't. Most new IP's fail. Especially MMO's.

Atheosis
12-21-2012, 10:45 AM
I vote sub all the way. Free to play usually means pay to win.

And if it doesn't?

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 11:53 AM
If the devs know what they are doing it will be free to play but not pay to win. It is all about the item but not the power in free to play games. Firefall and Planet Side 2 are free to play and Defiance can't compete with those Triple AAA MMO shooter. Not ever free to play game is pay to win.

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 12:01 PM
*unless Defiance is also free to play

deusex2
12-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Actually they don't. Most new IP's fail. Especially MMO's.

Care to provide examples? Because as much as I remember, most of recent p2p titles failed not because of paying model, but because of crapload of other reasons.


And if it doesn't?

Well that's the thing-it mostly is.


If the devs know what they are doing it will be free to play but not pay to win. It is all about the item but not the power in free to play games. Firefall and Planet Side 2 are free to play and Defiance can't compete with those Triple AAA MMO shooter. Not ever free to play game is pay to win.

Firefall is still in beta so that doesn't counts for much. As for Planetside2, it pretty much is a p2w dumbed down version of PS1.

Ultima12
12-21-2012, 12:56 PM
And if it doesn't?

Then I don't know, honestly. Whatever it takes for this game to be sucessful. We console gamers need a truely good mmo.

But, free to play is almost always pay to win....

Ultima12
12-21-2012, 01:01 PM
Care to provide examples? Because as much as I remember, most of recent p2p titles failed not because of paying model, but because of crapload of other reasons.



Well that's the thing-it mostly is.



Firefall is still in beta so that doesn't counts for much. As for Planetside2, it pretty much is a p2w dumbed down version of PS1.
Plus, Firefall will be completely free. I also wouldnt consider it AAA. I played the beta and it's decent enough but it definitely feels like a free game. I don't think many people would pay $60 for it.

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 01:20 PM
Firefall is coming a long great but there is no set date for release but I would say in about 4-6 months it will be release, it will be right along defiance for players and if a play has to choose free over pay they will go free. This game might not work for x-box, Microsoft is a **** when it comes to patches and updates.

Shadinaxx
12-21-2012, 01:23 PM
I'm a fan of subs, I've posted on other similer threads as to why.

Of course everyone wants something for free, but when they make something awesome, they wanna charge others for it.

Sub will do several things:
provide the developers with a steady paycheck to KEEP developing.
Limit access to the game/community from spammers, scammers and lamers (not eliminate, but limit)
Give a reason to think of how each player is behaving, if they are faced with a ban for misbehaving or cheating


One of the cons of a sub has mostly to do with console gamers. PSN and MSL both charge fees to access their online content, ONTOP of their normal internet access subscription. This has nothing to do with the game developers, it has everything to do with Sony and Microsoft. Complaining about that, would be like complaining to Ford or Honda about why they have to pay Chevron 3 bucks a gallon for gas.

On the flip side, the fees you pay PSN and MSL for access, isnt exclusive to Defiance, it's also part of ALL your online content. MAYBE, PSN and MSL access sub will be included at discount with a defiance sub, who knows until you see it.

Bottom line, imo: If you cant afford to play the game, maybe you shouldnt be playing the game.

and TL;DR; It was already hinted at, that you will have a choice to buy dlc "piece meal" content and access, or pay a sub an get it all included. "Free" wont happen, if it does, I want my Lambo.

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 01:24 PM
PSN is a free services but I never thought about spammers and how it could effect this game. But still most people want to try before buy and free to play is the best for income. You just have to have your store set up right. Exp boosters, skins and paints, access weapons and stuff early.

Shadinaxx
12-21-2012, 01:27 PM
any game that has an in game market, gets hit with gold sellers. Free, like firefall, will have it in abundance, provided firefall implements a player trade system.

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 01:34 PM
any game that has an in game market, gets hit with gold sellers. Free, like firefall, will have it in abundance, provided firefall implements a player trade system.

The only reason they don't have it is because they are working on a way to stop gold farmers. They could make a lot money off gold farmer if they use a system. Players can put in-game money up for real money. The market would flood and gold farmers are gone. You can see this in the steam market, bad crates in the last 24 hours have dropped to 50% of what they were selling for yesterday. Everyone wants to under cut everyone.

Shadinaxx
12-21-2012, 01:51 PM
Diablo III

Black_wraith
12-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Good luck getting people to invest $60 in a brand new MMO IP.

good luck with people actually buying into a F2p game. I hate to break it too you, but most if not all f2p games are pay to win. No such thing as F2p game and monthly subs are just dumb, why would you wanna pay monthly for a game is beyond me. 10-15$ to play on a console? F-that.

Paladin
12-21-2012, 02:23 PM
good luck with people actually buying into a F2p game. I hate to break it too you, but most if not all f2p games are pay to win. No such thing as F2p game and monthly subs are just dumb, why would you wanna pay monthly for a game is beyond me. 10-15$ to play on a console? F-that.

Gameplay is SOOOOOO much more rewarding as a sub. However i dont think my wallet can take another sub game so I'm hoping for a b2p with xp boosts and expansions not DLC

deusex2
12-21-2012, 04:55 PM
Gameplay is SOOOOOO much more rewarding as a sub. However i dont think my wallet can take another sub game so I'm hoping for a b2p with xp boosts and expansions not DLC

Yeah...Personally, I'd rather have p2p, but I don't mind b2p, so long as there are no DLCs, because as of late, those are nothing but a slap in the face of gamer with common sense.

Plzbanme
12-21-2012, 05:25 PM
You guys thing how to get the game effects the way it plays, I can tell you that free to play games can be better than other game that are p2p. Blacklight is better than COD, Blacklight has all the basic gameplay elements of the COD games but has it game play set up so you don't have to deal with campers and cheap stuff. It is not the way you pay it is about how the devs make the game. When you think about it what you really mean to say is, All current f2p games I have played have not been as good as sub.

AmazingPatt
12-21-2012, 06:27 PM
All current f2p games I have played have not been as good as sub.

this ^^^^^^

Black_wraith
12-21-2012, 06:28 PM
Gameplay is SOOOOOO much more rewarding as a sub. However i dont think my wallet can take another sub game so I'm hoping for a b2p with xp boosts and expansions not DLC

No one on console wants to do that. I'm fine with buying the game or buying the game as a premium model with dlc(as long as they have a *** load of content). Think about it, only a handle full of people want to do that subscription crap. Since this game isn't really well known threw out the game world think about it, you'd shoot yourself in the foot if it was 10$ a month plus a base price. rewarding please, whatever happened to make a game you pay a flat price then half that for a large expansion...


I think base price plus premium. MMO aren't doing as well because of subscription fee, and F2p games are kinda meh...the games with "premium" package seem to sell more *points at borderlands 2 and BF3* subcription may be a good idea, but not for console and not for a absurd price like 10-15$ a month. If you think so good luck seeing this game sell large amounts, i want this game to be a hit

Paladin
12-21-2012, 07:15 PM
No one on console wants to do that. I'm fine with buying the game or buying the game as a premium model with dlc(as long as they have a *** load of content). Think about it, only a handle full of people want to do that subscription crap. Since this game isn't really well known threw out the game world think about it, you'd shoot yourself in the foot if it was 10$ a month plus a base price. rewarding please, whatever happened to make a game you pay a flat price then half that for a large expansion...


I think base price plus premium. MMO aren't doing as well because of subscription fee, and F2p games are kinda meh...the games with "premium" package seem to sell more *points at borderlands 2 and BF3* subcription may be a good idea, but not for console and not for a absurd price like 10-15$ a month. If you think so good luck seeing this game sell large amounts, i want this game to be a hit
Well actually Dc Online for ps3 came out selling a lot of units but didn't get a lot of them to stay because of the subs. So if defiance becomes a b2p they will sell a lot And keep their players. An MMO on a console is a tempting idea many players will like to try. Slap the fps action on there and you get many more players. They can also do a plan where buying MMO subscription also gives you Xbox Live subscription. They've been doing this on Monster Hunter Frontier and its selling great

deusex2
12-22-2012, 06:00 AM
You guys thing how to get the game effects the way it plays, I can tell you that free to play games can be better than other game that are p2p. Blacklight is better than COD, Blacklight has all the basic gameplay elements of the COD games but has it game play set up so you don't have to deal with campers and cheap stuff. It is not the way you pay it is about how the devs make the game. When you think about it what you really mean to say is, All current f2p games I have played have not been as good as sub.

Please don't bring in Blacklight into this. The game is nothing but a hackfest, coupled with grind from hell. You're either forced to use the same starter crap all the time and get beaten by just about anyone or you can just unlock everything you want by buying it.

It's pretty much the same as Planetside2, only PS2 is more balanced and plays on a massive scale.

jcdraider
12-22-2012, 08:44 AM
Optional Subscription based games are stupid and alienate a lot of players that can't afford to pay for subs from joining friends at in-game events. A smart company would make it easy for everyone to play together and allow micro-transactions for cosmetic and mild convenience items.

The big problem I see is that game companies that use f2p models often copy the standard pay to win cash shops that korean developers are so fond of. While these games start popular since they are new and die quickly because items in the cash shops quickly gives an advantage to those that spend tons of money(perfect world, aeria games, and Nexon spring to mind.) I've recently been seeing a trend with newer US and European developers are moving to convenience and cosmetic only items. Upcoming game firefall is a good example of this so far, but that game is still in early development so I can only hope they keep it that way.

I've never stuck with optional subscription games. As stated above they alienate players that don't have are want to spend money on subscription or can't afford to buy the stuff through micro transactions. Its really annoying to get to a certain point in a game with friends and find out they cannot join you because they don't the premium membership that you do. While sub games like dc online and star wars are fun at first they quickly become money grabs that are just as bad as a lot of f2p with pay to win cash shops.

Pay 2 play games that require a renewed subscriptions are alright. I like the balance that you get from them not having cash shops. I've been pay for extra cosmetic and dlc items pop up on these games lately. Making them effectively as bad as game with cash shops. When you're paying a monthly fee already why should you need to pay extra for special content. That stuff should be available to everyone and is just showing excessive greed from game companies. I also don't like the fact that a lot of my friends cannot play the game with me unless they are paying for the game.

As for me, I stick to more independent games that are f2p and have no pay to win cash items yet. I don't mind paying for an initial game and massive expansions like guildwars does. One thing I won't do is use a game that separates its players by the amount of money they can afford spend through some sort of tiered subscription like Sony does with there games.

Black_wraith
12-22-2012, 06:53 PM
Optional Subscription based games are stupid and alienate a lot of players that can't afford to pay for subs from joining friends at in-game events. A smart company would make it easy for everyone to play together and allow micro-transactions for cosmetic and mild convenience items.

The big problem I see is that game companies that use f2p models often copy the standard pay to win cash shops that korean developers are so fond of. While these games start popular since they are new and die quickly because items in the cash shops quickly gives an advantage to those that spend tons of money(perfect world, aeria games, and Nexon spring to mind.) I've recently been seeing a trend with newer US and European developers are moving to convenience and cosmetic only items. Upcoming game firefall is a good example of this so far, but that game is still in early development so I can only hope they keep it that way.

I've never stuck with optional subscription games. As stated above they alienate players that don't have are want to spend money on subscription or can't afford to buy the stuff through micro transactions. Its really annoying to get to a certain point in a game with friends and find out they cannot join you because they don't the premium membership that you do. While sub games like dc online and star wars are fun at first they quickly become money grabs that are just as bad as a lot of f2p with pay to win cash shops.

Pay 2 play games that require a renewed subscriptions are alright. I like the balance that you get from them not having cash shops. I've been pay for extra cosmetic and dlc items pop up on these games lately. Making them effectively as bad as game with cash shops. When you're paying a monthly fee already why should you need to pay extra for special content. That stuff should be available to everyone and is just showing excessive greed from game companies. I also don't like the fact that a lot of my friends cannot play the game with me unless they are paying for the game.

As for me, I stick to more independent games that are f2p and have no pay to win cash items yet. I don't mind paying for an initial game and massive expansions like guildwars does. One thing I won't do is use a game that separates its players by the amount of money they can afford spend through some sort of tiered subscription like Sony does with there games.




i like this post a lot. Personally i prefer battlefield 3 idea base game or package with premium an get early access to dlc's . i probably wont get this game if it has subscrption or in game money which beyond horrible

Plzbanme
12-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Please don't bring in Blacklight into this. The game is nothing but a hackfest, coupled with grind from hell. You're either forced to use the same starter crap all the time and get beaten by just about anyone or you can just unlock everything you want by buying it.

It's pretty much the same as Planetside2, only PS2 is more balanced and plays on a massive scale.

A grind from hell? That is only if you are stupid, you don't prem-buy every part you want. You rent by what you need and hackers are not common anymore. Blacklight is good if you know what you are doing, but yes there is some grinding. But when you think about it grinding is part of the game in nature. You want to play the game to start with and you earn GP for doing so, it is a fun grind. And it is very balanced game, with a very high learning curve, you got to aim for the head.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-22-2012, 08:49 PM
I myself want F2P with option to buy content or the ability to make very small amounts of store points buy playing content and winning, maybe since this game runs with TV series have hints on it where to find store points that are very hard to follow without being really into game think that will get people to watch the show and play the game I for one am very excited to watch the show and then jump into game and follow a story that way seems very refreshing to me and no one has brought this up I do not get that this can be one of the biggest things ever if people do it right. And I must say I feel that so far Trion is doing a great job at this from the VBI site to all the videos about the game that always talk about the show and how it connects.

this is just my opinion I do hope others share it though.

deusex2
12-22-2012, 11:18 PM
A grind from hell? That is only if you are stupid, you don't prem-buy every part you want. You rent by what you need and hackers are not common anymore. Blacklight is good if you know what you are doing, but yes there is some grinding. But when you think about it grinding is part of the game in nature. You want to play the game to start with and you earn GP for doing so, it is a fun grind. And it is very balanced game, with a very high learning curve, you got to aim for the head.

There's nothing balanced about it. The game designed to be pay2win and you simply can't keep up with competition unless you cough up the dough. Not to mention that the game itself is CoD lite.

Fiancee
12-23-2012, 04:18 AM
We already know it uses somekind of hydrid business model. Theres free and paid content.

Plzbanme
12-23-2012, 11:19 AM
There's nothing balanced about it. The game designed to be pay2win and you simply can't keep up with competition unless you cough up the dough. Not to mention that the game itself is CoD lite.

Just because you suck at the game doesn't mean you can say it is pay to win. I was playing with stock for the longest time and kicking ***, and if you don't like stock just get a premade. Don't for get high learning curve, I bet you jump for 5 minutes when it went on steam, got your *** kicked by everyone that has been playing the game since it launch outside of steam and thought it must be play to win. If you play about 2 hours a day(I was doing 4 hours per day for about month before steam) You earn about 125 per game, and you can get 10 games in about a 2 hour period. 125 time 10 is 1250 and 1250 time 7 is 8750 gp a week which is two prem-buys. There are also all the stuff you get as you rank up, which let you keep trying parts as you keep trying to find which parts meet your play style. Also they give you the best killsteak right off the bat, the hardsuit.

deusex2
12-23-2012, 04:27 PM
I was in it's beta and at it's launch. Cool trolling trolling though. I state the fact-whoever pays real cash gains the advantage and you run your mouth about how bad I must be at that crap of a game-very mature of you.

I was decent at that garbage rip-off, but all I could do was working for guns instead of having fun, hence grind from hell. You could buy everything you wanted and roflstomp anyone in that game, or you could be a slave and work for guns, only to be eventually roflstomped.

And when you consider the amount of money you have to spend in order to have fun instead of having another job, BF+COD are actually cheaper in a long run.

Plzbanme
12-23-2012, 06:03 PM
I was in it's beta and at it's launch. Cool trolling trolling though. I state the fact-whoever pays real cash gains the advantage and you run your mouth about how bad I must be at that crap of a game-very mature of you.

I was decent at that garbage rip-off, but all I could do was working for guns instead of having fun, hence grind from hell. You could buy everything you wanted and roflstomp anyone in that game, or you could be a slave and work for guns, only to be eventually roflstomped.

And when you consider the amount of money you have to spend in order to have fun instead of having another job, BF+COD are actually cheaper in a long run.

Wow, so you weren't having fun and keep playing? I don't know why you would. It is balance and stock is just as good as top level stuff. I use stock armor for the most part all but my helmet which has a special skin got it free. The game has gone through changes since launch.

Fikticio
12-23-2012, 07:21 PM
Hi Plzbanme,

If you whant just play F2P games you should go to the EST, go live in China or Korea. If you dont whant to pay for stuff, mabe you should go to... nowhere. No one will give you nothing for free, the free in F2P its just an ilusion, where if you dont spend money you are not at the same lvl as the ones that do spend it.
In life to survive you need a job to make money to pay the rent and to buy food. So Devs and companies have the right to charge you for there jobe.

Plzbanme
12-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Hi Plzbanme,

If you whant just play F2P games you should go to the EST, go live in China or Korea. If you dont whant to pay for stuff, mabe you should go to... nowhere. No one will give you nothing for free, the free in F2P its just an ilusion, where if you dont spend money you are not at the same lvl as the ones that do spend it.
In life to survive you need a job to make money to pay the rent and to buy food. So Devs and companies have the right to charge you for there jobe.

Man, I feel sorry for you. You have play such bad free to play game you can't stand the sight of them. And I know free to play isn't free, they charge in time and effort, something today's games don't have and really need. Also after TF2 went free to play, it saw a 12X income increase.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Hi Plzbanme,

If you whant just play F2P games you should go to the EST, go live in China or Korea. If you dont whant to pay for stuff, mabe you should go to... nowhere. No one will give you nothing for free, the free in F2P its just an ilusion, where if you dont spend money you are not at the same lvl as the ones that do spend it.
In life to survive you need a job to make money to pay the rent and to buy food. So Devs and companies have the right to charge you for there jobe.

I have to say I disagree. I play DDO and if I really wanted to not pay for anything I do not have to most of the game I have Bought because I do love playing the game. but I have also made a lot of store points by just playing the game what like I said is what I love to do, play the game. so F2P can be free if someone is willing to do the grind what is very possible. depending on what type of F2P system is in use but I think this is just the NEW and people have to get used to it.

Change is part of Life

Fikticio
12-23-2012, 09:46 PM
Man, I feel sorry for you. You have play such bad free to play game you can't stand the sight of them. And I know free to play isn't free, they charge in time and effort, something today's games don't have and really need. Also after TF2 went free to play, it saw a 12X income increase.

I have played some good F2P games, but after a while i got tired of the giga grind (alods)(requiem), there ar good free to play game, but you have to admit the store calls for you to spend money if you whant to see the end game (see it soon), a good exemple of a game that is now free to play and as one of the most giga grinds ever is Aion, and i played the game on day first and payed for 6 months (subed), i was blinded by the new. Most free to play are to estern.
And TF2 whent free to play as an ilusion, they whented to try somthing, it was a experiment, but to see it you need to benot blinded by the fact its free and see what apening in the game industry.

Fikticio
12-23-2012, 09:50 PM
I have to say I disagree. I play DDO and if I really wanted to not pay for anything I do not have to most of the game I have Bought because I do love playing the game. but I have also made a lot of store points by just playing the game what like I said is what I love to do, play the game. so F2P can be free if someone is willing to do the grind what is very possible. depending on what type of F2P system is in use but I think this is just the NEW and people have to get used to it.

Change is part of Life

First, free to play is here since 1996, its not new, whats new is the way they now use it to make tons of money.

Second, DDO whent free to play whith a ton of restiction, if you whant to play all the game buy the dlc and play all classes and all races (play all the game) you have to spend money.

Genobee
12-23-2012, 09:54 PM
.............

Thayl Ruttgar
12-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Again I said you can do it without ever opening your wallet but it does take time but you pay with your time instead of money you should look closer to how things really are there I have spent less than $200.00 and been playing for two years that would be more than $200.00 as a sub and i do not lose my stuff if I don't pay. open your eyes and really if you think about time 1996 is not forever ago and the way F2P is now used is the way things are going since it has been around since then I do not think it is going anywhere.

Fikticio
12-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Man, if you whant somone to get addicted to somthing, just give them a litle and they will ask you for more and more... Yes in all (or most) F2P games you can work you way just by playing in time, but in the end if you whant to kep up with the rest what can you do. And a year pass sub in some game cost 100$, DCUO when it cam out was selling life time subs for 200$ (or less dont remember).
The point on spending money in a game, if the game is good and the store is good every player will a some point spend money in it. And in the end the point of a F2P is to get the whales.

Plzbanme
12-23-2012, 10:16 PM
They need to make money some where, that is why things are the way they are in a lot of free to play games. If you could do everything fast why would you ever spend money or even play for that matter. Tell what you think would be good for a free to play game. Beside you are getting the game free, it is kinda a **** move to ***** about how long it takes to do anything.

deusex2
12-24-2012, 03:33 AM
Wow, so you weren't having fun and keep playing? I don't know why you would. It is balance and stock is just as good as top level stuff. I use stock armor for the most part all but my helmet which has a special skin got it free. The game has gone through changes since launch.

Oh, it was fun at first and yeah-the basic gear was enough for any pug stomps. However that gear was only good enough for pug stomps and nothing more. Any 1lvl idiot coughing out 25$ up front would dominate any match, why? Because he'd buy his access to the highest lvl gear. And have you ever ran into premades or clans wearing fully customized gear? You literally had no chance against any of them, even if you'd get a drop on one guy.

To stand a chance against those guys you had to re-customize your gear and your gear selection was limited to your level unless you'd buy your way out of leveling curve. And even when you'd be lvl high enough, you'd still have to earn enough money to rent the gear itself. You'd literally be forced to grind for several days in order to rent all the gear for one lousy day.

So I gave the game a break and by the time I've returned I saw stupid robots dominating in every match, that was when I've said enough and uninstalled the damn game.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the idea and the customization in the game, those were major sale points for me and they were awesome. Unfortunately, Perfect World made sure to restrict it as much as possible for free players and they made sure that the only way to truly enjoy the system was to pay cash, lots of it...Or to grind stupid exp for eternity.
-----------------------------------

Right now I'm playing Hawken, it's a f2p game, where free players aren't meat for slaughter, where you can literally play without paying a single dollar and still be on par with others. You have the same selection as every other player in-game. You can buy just about everything performance related with in-game currency, except for cosmetics and xp/in-game currency boosters. And with real cash you can buy pretty much everything, except you can't buy your way out of leveling, unlike Blacklight.

Not to mention the fact that in Hawken skill beats everything. You can be lvl1 newbie and you can devastate lvl25 pilot(max lvl), so long as you're skillful enough. That was how Blacklight should be, but they went and allowed any scrub to buy his way to glory.
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As for DDO, I actually like their system. The game itself ended up being turned into WoW with d20 dices, but the system they came up with to save the game was pretty good. I mean you can grind enough stuff while playing for free to afford to buy DLCs and stuff from item-shop, which is nice. I also like how you can buy piece by piece stuff. For example if you don't like the whole DLC, but you only like the new class or race, you can unlock only those.

And this is something that lots of other companies overlooked, SOE for example, with DCUO.

Speaking of DCUO, I've actually bout life-sub for that. I payed 60$ for the game itself and then 200$ more for the life sub, because I played it during beta and it was awesome. The problem started right after the release, though. Not only it took the devs forever to fix the exploits that were reported at the beginning of closed beta, but it also took them forever to balance things out. On top of that, they'd overnerf certain things, making some classes completely useless, while overbuffing others, making them borderline OP.

But sure, that was first year and all, except that they kept at it all the damn time(even now). But what caused the game to fail and force it into f2p, was DLC! They've made the first DLC and they were going to charge ten more bucks for it, on top of subscription! They also did it few months before SWTOR came out(real smooth guys). So the majority of player base said F to that and abandoned the game until SOE was forced to turn DCUO into f2p with optional subscription and limitations for f2p players.

Now I'm not playing the game at all, because of the changed combat system. At some point SOE just tired of trying to fix their own incompetence and said that it wasn't a bug, but a feature and it was working as intended. Later on, they've also changed few more things that made me completely give up on the game.

So yeah, let's keep DCUO out this discussion, a failure is a failure.

deusex2
12-24-2012, 03:43 AM
edit1: Also I feel the same way as Genobee about GW2, except that in GW2 leveling up isn't all that bad. What really gets to me is that in GW2 money makes more money and you HAVE to buy gems in order to generate money. You, also, have to buy stuff from the cash store if you want to be successful during holiday events. Why do you have to be successful during holiday events? TO EARN EVEN MORE MONEY! And not to suck, because when it comes down to events-GW2 becomes pay2win, which I find to be insulting to me, as a GW1 player.

edit2:WOW! I can't edit my posts five minutes after posting them?! That's messed up forum policy.

edit3:also, wow wall of text lol

Plzbanme
12-24-2012, 09:52 AM
Oh, it was fun at first and yeah-the basic gear was enough for any pug stomps. However that gear was only good enough for pug stomps and nothing more. Any 1lvl idiot coughing out 25$ up front would dominate any match, why? Because he'd buy his access to the highest lvl gear. And have you ever ran into premades or clans wearing fully customized gear? You literally had no chance against any of them, even if you'd get a drop on one guy.

To stand a chance against those guys you had to re-customize your gear and your gear selection was limited to your level unless you'd buy your way out of leveling curve. And even when you'd be lvl high enough, you'd still have to earn enough money to rent the gear itself. You'd literally be forced to grind for several days in order to rent all the gear for one lousy day.

So I gave the game a break and by the time I've returned I saw stupid robots dominating in every match, that was when I've said enough and uninstalled the damn game.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the idea and the customization in the game, those were major sale points for me and they were awesome. Unfortunately, Perfect World made sure to restrict it as much as possible for free players and they made sure that the only way to truly enjoy the system was to pay cash, lots of it...Or to grind stupid exp for eternity.
-----------------------------------



All the gear is balanced with low level and high level. You think players will a lot of gear shell out money but the people that have this gear have been playing for a while and are high skill. And 25 dollars will get you half a set of armor or a low level gun. Their prices for that kind of stuff are high. If you went up against me you would get your *** handed to you on a silver platter, server 3 different ways to Sunday. It is not the gear, it is the in the player. The only reason there are rank is to keep you play and give the reward of leveling up.

deusex2
12-24-2012, 10:37 AM
All the gear is balanced with low level and high level. You think players will a lot of gear shell out money but the people that have this gear have been playing for a while and are high skill. And 25 dollars will get you half a set of armor or a low level gun. Their prices for that kind of stuff are high. If you went up against me you would get your *** handed to you on a silver platter, server 3 different ways to Sunday. It is not the gear, it is the in the player. The only reason there are rank is to keep you play and give the reward of leveling up.

No, the rank is there to restrict free players and to force them into paying insane amounts of cash to unlock better gear earlier, get real. The gear might seem balanced when you compare it one by one, indeed most of those are sidegrades, however when you consider the fact that every gun and armor consists of many parts in that game, and that each and every part has their own stats, you end up constructing guns with some insane firepower and RoF.

Not to mention the fact that last time I checked, the damn robot was beefy as hell, there was no chance against him in 1v1.

And like I've said before-starter gear is only good for pub-stomping, which I hope you're still enjoying. However if you'd run into a player with equal skill, but better, fully customized gear, you'd get decimated, plain and simple. You may say whatever you like, but when skill is matched, the difference in gear decides the outcome(and sometimes luck).

lycrates
12-24-2012, 12:52 PM
I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits perfectly here as well:


I have NEVER seen a non-sub game to be worthwhile in the long run. The reason B2P and F2P games sound too good to be true is because they ARE!!

The ultimate difference is that MMOs require a lot of constant new content updates in order to stay interesting not become stale and boring. I have never seen a company to be able to provide lots of new frequent content updates without a subscription model.

Even if you look at GW2, - a buy to play game, most people have stopped playing because there is not much to do at the end. And even then, GW2 is not a good game for comparison because it is mostly focused around PvP, while Defiance will have its focus towards cooperative PvE (from what I understand).

Games with a focus on PvE NEED frequent content updates. Yes, playing a game regularly and not having to pay for frequent content sounds awesome. Too bad no company has managed to pull it off yet (developers dont work for free you know).

Even games that have a dual model (either pay optional subscription or pay for DLCs individually) dont have good content updates. For example, The Secret World follows that model and its montly content updates are tiny, at best.

World of Warcraft on the other hand, is releasing a TON of content constantly. I dont even have time to go through everything and they are preparing to release yet another Raid with a ton of bosses. Not to mention many new zones, quests, etc. I dont particulatly like WoW, but with all the B2P and F2P mmo crap that is out there, i dont have many options.

Plzbanme
12-24-2012, 01:32 PM
No, the rank is there to restrict free players and to force them into paying insane amounts of cash to unlock better gear earlier, get real. The gear might seem balanced when you compare it one by one, indeed most of those are sidegrades, however when you consider the fact that every gun and armor consists of many parts in that game, and that each and every part has their own stats, you end up constructing guns with some insane firepower and RoF.

Not to mention the fact that last time I checked, the damn robot was beefy as hell, there was no chance against him in 1v1.

And like I've said before-starter gear is only good for pub-stomping, which I hope you're still enjoying. However if you'd run into a player with equal skill, but better, fully customized gear, you'd get decimated, plain and simple. You may say whatever you like, but when skill is matched, the difference in gear decides the outcome(and sometimes luck).

The game is free, it isn't going to be like a normal game for mp. The point of a free to play game is to like you try it before letting for put money into, if you want to play free, you can. But they need to make money some where, and for blacklight it is pretty damn fair. Let's say you play 2 hours a day for a week. You earn 125 per round on average, and game last about 10 minutes, and you can get 5 games an hour in. You earn 1250 per day which means you can rent 10 parts for a day or save for later. If you wait to the end of the week, you have 8750, which is enough to prem buy 2-3 parts or rent 5-7 parts for a week. Grants you now have a kickass custom gun. Or you can prem-buy a high grade premade which is made out of top rank parts and there you are on level with the top rank people in terms of gear. The problem here isn't the game, it is you. You have no idea what it takes to make a game, and keep updates going. They make you pay in time and you want to get everything right a way, which is how it works in B2P game. They have to be give somewhere and you just don't want any. And that robot guy, is weak as crap at med to long range, each hero has a best uses distance if you want to fight him in it, go right a head.

deusex2
12-24-2012, 03:42 PM
Except that every damn lvl1 can unlock everything so long as he pays real cash, which is pretty much p2w. As for robot, he has(or had) highest available armor in-game which wasn't attainable with regular gear, available for everyone. And on top of that, thanks to the legal-wallhack, every player can see each other, so every player decides the conditions of engagement.

On top of that-congrats! you've worked for a week and got yourself a gun, for a week. Now keep working in order to gain enough money to maintain the gun, oh and you can forget about renting any other gear. Now if you want to permanently buy a gun-no problem, but you just have to be max level in order to gain access to all the required parts...And in the meanwhile you have to keep renting premade guns, hoping to somehow save some for that perma-gun.

And then there's gear and all other equipment aside from guns and you have to rent those too, while leveling up and struggling against cash sink, that is rented guns.

Get it now? What you're saying is good and makes sense in theory, in reality you have overcome tons cash sinks or come in terms with the fact that you have to use inferior gear all the way until you level up enough to be able to actually buy the damn parts. Which will take an unreasonable amount of your time. or you can simply pay real money and get it right off the bat.

So yeah, it's a pay2win where you either slave away for your gear or you simply buy it with real money.

I'm willing to give you that Blacklight p2w is the least insulting one from all other p2w rental systems out there, but no matter how you spin it and no matter how much you talk about skill-fact remains it's a p2w game.

And don't give me that "well they have to earn money somehow" crap! There are tons of other ways to do it, without turning the game into p2w. Heck they could've made fortune in cosmetics alone in that game! But no-they have to treat free players as slaves.

Plzbanme
12-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Except that every damn lvl1 can unlock everything so long as he pays real cash, which is pretty much p2w. As for robot, he has(or had) highest available armor in-game which wasn't attainable with regular gear, available for everyone. And on top of that, thanks to the legal-wallhack, every player can see each other, so every player decides the conditions of engagement.

On top of that-congrats! you've worked for a week and got yourself a gun, for a week. Now keep working in order to gain enough money to maintain the gun, oh and you can forget about renting any other gear. Now if you want to permanently buy a gun-no problem, but you just have to be max level in order to gain access to all the required parts...And in the meanwhile you have to keep renting premade guns, hoping to somehow save some for that perma-gun.

And then there's gear and all other equipment aside from guns and you have to rent those too, while leveling up and struggling against cash sink, that is rented guns.

Get it now? What you're saying is good and makes sense in theory, in reality you have overcome tons cash sinks or come in terms with the fact that you have to use inferior gear all the way until you level up enough to be able to actually buy the damn parts. Which will take an unreasonable amount of your time. or you can simply pay real money and get it right off the bat.

So yeah, it's a pay2win where you either slave away for your gear or you simply buy it with real money.

I'm willing to give you that Blacklight p2w is the least insulting one from all other p2w rental systems out there, but no matter how you spin it and no matter how much you talk about skill-fact remains it's a p2w game.

And don't give me that "well they have to earn money somehow" crap! There are tons of other ways to do it, without turning the game into p2w. Heck they could've made fortune in cosmetics alone in that game! But no-they have to treat free players as slaves.

That armor only applies to the head, if you don't know. You can keep saying it is pay to win but my math say it ain't. I have also done test with friends with balance and it came out that the balance was in fact better than the new CODs. You have no idea how effective or for that matter ineffective cosmetics are at getting money. Less than 1 percent(.06%) of players would buy anything from the store because it isn't helpful in any space or form. They have to make money, cosmetics have never worked for any game, but tf2 and it only works there because you can get money out of the game. Now you can keep saying it is pay to win or you can put some effort in to your gaming or drop some cash.
Now I can see that you just want to fight it out now. So /ignore

deusex2
12-24-2012, 05:24 PM
That armor only applies to the head, if you don't know. You can keep saying it is pay to win but my math say it ain't. I have also done test with friends with balance and it came out that the balance was in fact better than the new CODs. You have no idea how effective or for that matter ineffective cosmetics are at getting money. Less than 1 percent(.06%) of players would buy anything from the store because it isn't helpful in any space or form. They have to make money, cosmetics have never worked for any game, but tf2 and it only works there because you can get money out of the game. Now you can keep saying it is pay to win or you can put some effort in to your gaming or drop some cash.
Now I can see that you just want to fight it out now. So /ignore


Oh is that so? I wonder if guys at Riot Games know about it? Damn they better change their f2p model ASAP if they don't want to bankrupt...

Other then that, I'm glad you're ignoring me, because arguing with fanboy like you is pretty pointless, so keep having fun with p2w game.

Plzbanme
12-24-2012, 05:33 PM
Oh is that so? I wonder if guys at Riot Games know about it? Damn they better change their f2p model ASAP if they don't want to bankrupt...

Other then that, I'm glad you're ignoring me, because arguing with fanboy like you is pretty pointless, so keep having fun with p2w game.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_Wiki

deusex2
12-25-2012, 05:28 AM
Except LoL character skins generate a friggin fortune as well. Now please go back to ignoring me.

Night Hawke
12-25-2012, 11:57 AM
i'd prefer a sub, for me imo i like that i set it up and can walk away i don't feel like i'm being nickel and dimed by the game i'm trying to play/support. i also don't like the in your face nature of F2P or B2P+CS. Sub mmo's seem much less about the various ways to get money meanwhile the other 2 models are constantly in your face about buy this or buy that.

With every F2P/B2P game i have played in the mmo space (STO, SWTOR, GW2, etc) all you see is cash shop stuff, those with lockboxes are especially bad at this. They keep it in your face with your loot that you should give them money to access your chance at something. Some games are worse than others, STO is worse than GW2 in the lock boxes category but SWTOR easily wins at making you feel like you are second class if you don't sub (so whats the point other than to get money out of subs too).

Overall i like the simplicity of subs. i like how everyone that subs is an equal member of the community. Every update is about the game and adding content and features to it. not flavor of the month cash grab thing. I pay them once a month and everyone can get back to making the game better and we can focus on the game not how the company is going to get its next paycheck.

I play on PC i can't speak to the experiences of console players.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-25-2012, 12:19 PM
SO just have the game F2P with the ability to SUB. like I said before I play DDO and have always been a prem player i own almost all of the game and earn store points while playing, I have spent like $200.00 +or- and if I would have sub'd I would have paid more and would not own it it would go away when I stop paying but this way I can put money in when I am able to being the only working person in a family of four this model works well for someone like me. Now I do think someone that SUB's should have a bit of an advantage so I am not taking away from it, just don't take away from others this is why I feel that everyone is going F2P in some way so as to not take away from their player base. change is always going to happen.

maxztt
12-25-2012, 02:57 PM
It's a hard decision. I always preferred the other players in subscription-based games over the other players in free-to-play games and I definitely preferred that everything was always available through ingame means.


On the other hand, with free-to-play you have more freedom to decide when to play. You don't have to worry about paying the 15€ a month although you don't play a single second in that month. You just jump in and out whenever you like. (which also takes away from some of the game feeling, since the community of free-to-play games seems to be less serious about the games)


My last point would be, that I doubt that a subscription based MMO could be very successful in todays world, with all the high quality free-to-play games popping up these days.

Eve Online and World of Warcraft seem to be the only big subscription-based games that are left and successful.
All the others either converted to some form of free to play or are virtually dying.

Black_wraith
12-25-2012, 03:23 PM
It's a hard decision. I always preferred the other players in subscription-based games over the other players in free-to-play games and I definitely preferred that everything was always available through ingame means.


On the other hand, with free-to-play you have more freedom to decide when to play. You don't have to worry about paying the 15€ a month although you don't play a single second in that month. You just jump in and out whenever you like. (which also takes away from some of the game feeling, since the community of free-to-play games seems to be less serious about the games)


My last point would be, that I doubt that a subscription based MMO could be very successful in todays world, with all the high quality free-to-play games popping up these days.

Eve Online and World of Warcraft seem to be the only big subscription-based games that are left and successful.
All the others either converted to some form of free to play or are virtually dying.

f2p games die extremely fast, because they're nothing mroe then pay to win

Thayl Ruttgar
12-25-2012, 03:51 PM
WoW I am sorry that you guys have had bad times with F2P games but I have played a lot of F2P and have found that there is good and bad in all game how many sub games have failed people should look at a game for what IT is and not if it is F2P or SUB, open your eyes to the world around you.

lycrates
12-25-2012, 05:20 PM
SO just have the game F2P with the ability to SUB.

Let me explain to you how games with optional Sub work.

Optional Sub also nessecitates that content updates are optional to buy. As such, it is easy to guess that most people will not pay for a Sub or most of the optional content updates.

Since content updates are optional, seven things must ultimately happen:
1) Content updates are kinda of minor and boring because they are optional and cannot be an intergral part of the game.
2) Many people are not going to get them.
3) People who dont experience frequent content updates will eventually get bored and leave.
4) The cost for the development of new content falls increasingly on the small number of Subcriptions.
5) Less funding means smaller and smaller content updates.
6) More people leave due to the lack of new content.
7) Game becomes fully a free to play mess (cash shop with tiny new content updates).

This is not new. Us veteran gamers have seen these thing happen again and again. Sadly, the only AAA MMOs that are able to pull off the necessary frequent content updates which keep people engaged are subscription only MMOs. There is a reason for that and sadly developers do no work for free.

Atheosis
12-25-2012, 05:47 PM
f2p games die extremely fast, because they're nothing mroe then pay to win

I really wish people would stop perpetuating this ignorance. Not all F2P games are P2W.

deusex2
12-25-2012, 05:52 PM
Let me explain to you how games with optional Sub work.

Optional Sub also nessecitates that content updates are optional to buy. As such, it is easy to guess that most people will not pay for a Sub or most of the optional content updates.

Since content updates are optional, seven things must ultimately happen:
1) Content updates are kinda of minor and boring because they are optional and cannot be an intergral part of the game.
2) Many people are not going to get them.
3) People who dont experience frequent content updates will eventually get bored and leave.
4) The cost for the development of new content falls increasingly on the small number of Subcriptions.
5) Less funding means smaller and smaller content updates.
6) More people leave due to the lack of new content.
7) Game becomes fully a free to play mess (cash shop with tiny new content updates).

This is not new. Us veteran gamers have seen these thing happen again and again. Sadly, the only AAA MMOs that are able to pull off the necessary frequent content updates which keep people engaged are subscription only MMOs. There is a reason for that and sadly developers do no work for free.

Actually, from my experience with DCUO:

1)Mostly true, however some provide optional(and very often OP classes). Those very quickly become mandatory for everyone.

2)True

3)Kinda true, those people get bored with the game itself in general and are bound to leave sooner or later, new content or not. But later on, same kind of people pops in anyway, with no dedication and no intention to stay for long. They're there either to troll people or to kill few hours of their free time before moving on to the next f2p. It's one of reasons why I like p2p-it scares those people away.

4)Well, if the game ends up f2p, it's because of low number of subs and that number doesn't go up when the game turns f2p(especially since subs don't get all that much more for being subs). The game starts earning money on DLCs and other items, being bought by those people that come in, throw away few bucks and leave.

5)Usually, but mostly smaller content updates means that the devs become greedy. Why sell something a whole, when you can sell it piece by piece, for the same price as a whole thing? That's the problem with most of DLCs these days.

6)True, but some leave because they don't like getting ripped-off by DLCs.

7)That happens always, sooner or later, but always with f2p games. For the same reasons stated in #5

Also you've forgotten one more thing:

8)Optional subs/DLCs alienate gaming population. It's like all those fancy new maps that cost 10$ and have nobody playing on those, because very few people actually have that DLC.

Shadinaxx
12-25-2012, 05:57 PM
Let me explain to you how games with optional Sub work.

Optional Sub also nessecitates that content updates are optional to buy. As such, it is easy to guess that most people will not pay for a Sub or most of the optional content updates.

Since content updates are optional, seven things must ultimately happen:
1) Content updates are kinda of minor and boring because they are optional and cannot be an intergral part of the game.
2) Many people are not going to get them.
3) People who dont experience frequent content updates will eventually get bored and leave.
4) The cost for the development of new content falls increasingly on the small number of Subcriptions.
5) Less funding means smaller and smaller content updates.
6) More people leave due to the lack of new content.
7) Game becomes fully a free to play mess (cash shop with tiny new content updates).

This is not new. Us veteran gamers have seen these thing happen again and again. Sadly, the only AAA MMOs that are able to pull off the necessary frequent content updates which keep people engaged are subscription only MMOs. There is a reason for that and sadly developers do no work for free.

There are ways of having optional content without it being mediocre. For instance, using Trion for example, Storm Legion is considered optional for the Rift platform, but I would not call it even remotely mediocre. You can play WoW as any of the previous expansions without the newest ones. You just dont have access to the greatest stuff, the increased level caps, dungeons, etc. SWTOR also has the option of F2P or sub, but with their first expansion not quite out yet, we cant say if it's "optional" or not. They do have a mall system for certain things, that subs get a monthly "allowance" of the premium currency that is given them based on their monthly sub rate.

However, I do prefer subs, dont have to do this thing where I have to play the game for x amount of time just to have access to content that is right in front of my face. I will be playing for x amount of time regardless, to "level up" and get geared, practice, etc. However, I dont want to have to run some sort of time sink scam just to use something for free. Not my style, I will pay what it's worth to show my appreciation for the hard work people have put into making a good product.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-25-2012, 05:59 PM
I still disagree since like I said before everything is going this way and soon will be the standard I think you need open your eyes to the world and see that change is here and we need to make the most of it instead of make it sound horrible. I am sorry you are so one sided on this and can't see that we need to make it work not the DEV's. So if F2P WE need to buy content WE need to advertise this game and WE need to make it happen.

Shadinaxx
12-25-2012, 06:12 PM
There are several "free" games I play, some good, some bad, some medium. I dont think "free" games is the change that is needed. What's wrong with currency exchange (paying for a product you want)? It's been done for over 2 thousand years, and seems to work well enough.

Here's the thing, compare what you are proposing to say, a gas(petrol) company. I dont want to pay for fuel anymore, so let's goto Shell, and tell them we aren't gonna pay for fuel by the gallon/litre anymore. However, because we want to use their fuel, we'll sport a sticker on our vehicle, and advertise for them. Also, if they put out merchandise, and maintenance items for our cars, I'll buy my maintenance from them, and whatever other "swag" I feel like getting from them. They will, I garauntee it, laugh you out of their meeting room. This busniess plan does not benefit them. In the online gaming industry, we (as the players/consumers) have a bit more authority than a fossil fuel company. However, it's still a service that requires manpower to run. Funding the manpower takes money. The free to play market is nice, but it's designed to cater to those willing to spend the most on it. ON a balanced, benevolant dev base, the sub is hte BEST way to go, for equality. May not be the most convieniant route, but it's the most equal.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-25-2012, 06:23 PM
Again I have said I did not start this F2P thing but I do use it and do not think it is going anywhere, to compare online gaming to Fuel is not the same thing something that is luxury or something that is manditory not a comparison. but I do understand what you mean just wrong way to say it. F2P is here and staying if you like it or not look at almost all the SUB based games that started this year where are they now some form of F2P most of which SUCK. I play DDO and other games and do like the way they run it and do like the amount of content they are putting out and being able to get points from play as well as pay for them I play with almost all SUB players and keep up with them so this game is not PAY to WIN. I am sorry but please understand I get what you are saying but it is just not that way anymore so we as the players have to make it work and just PLAY FOR FUN which is what all games should be.

lycrates
12-25-2012, 10:16 PM
F2P is here and staying if you like it or not look at almost all the SUB based games that started this year where are they now some form of F2P most of which SUCK.



Its true that a lot of Subscription games of 2011 and 2012 sucked big time. The reason was not the subscription model though. It was because those games were nowhere near Primetime quality.
Lets look at them really quick:

Tera: Combat and graphics where excellent. Beyond that there was nothing there. It was so bad, that I would have to call that game a "money-rab" instead of a real and complete game.

SWTOR: Released with terrible bugs and missing key features. It was also created using the cheap "Hero" engine. Ultimately it was just a lower quality version of WoW so it was no suprise that it went F2P

The Secret World: Not a polished game (not by a long shot) and nowhere near ready for primetime. I kinda of feel sad for them because Funcom really put a lot of love into making it.

Overall all the new MMORPGs for 2011/2012 where all a huge disappointent. At this point I am pretty sure that their business model from the very beginning was the following:

1) Invest barely enough for an incomplete, unpolished game.
2) Hype it up.
3) Recover the investment and make a profit from selling the boxed game.
4) Charge a Subscription.
6) Fire almost all developers, but maintain a skeletal development team to periodically release small content patches in order to string customers along as long as possible.
5) After most suckers..err.. customers leave, turn the game into F2P and continue milking it until it dies.
6) Rince and repeat.

I think that is a fair description of the laterst MMO models. Great for the companies, terrible for the gamers. Only Rift and WoW have been different, but now I hear that Rift has fired almost all of its development team casting doupts into the quality of future updates.

I hope Defiance will be different, but the nature of the payment model will dictate if this is a game that Trion Worlds shows an interest in investing for the long haul or to just cash in and move on.

Shadinaxx
12-25-2012, 10:55 PM
I think the largest problem in MMO's lately, is that they push for a xmas release, doing alot of hype there and launching an incomplete game just to meet a deadline for xmas. Trion hasnt ever bought into holiday hype and the result is devs that arent fried out in coding around the clock during an already stressful holiday season.

F2P is a great modal, dont get me wrong, but Subs arent obsolete either, and therefore, dont need ALL games to reformat to a F2P system. My main point (comparing gas to game wasnt the best, but I was cooking dinner, so slightly distracted) is that subs keep everyone having an equal shot at greatness. Dont make a marketting system where someone that never leaves their beanbag in front of their xbox/ps3/pc and is the ayatolla of all shooters the ones that profit the most from a f2p system. Or, alternately, someone that drops the price of a new house into the game and it's mall system, the one no-one knows, but cant touch because of teh glowy boomstick of leet walletness they possess. (extreme scenarios, but you KNOW where I'm coming from on this).

I agree, 2011-2012 MMOs were all sorts of floppy. Defiance is a compeletly differant machine, Trion has a good track record of free AND paid for games (altho short list), and we even have a hybrid model mentioned for defiance. It was said that the game is a luxury. All luxuries I've ever experianced were paid for, either by myself, or someone else, but never by the person(s) providing the luxury (unless you count a demo).

Thayl Ruttgar
12-26-2012, 10:58 AM
OK Now I am with you I understand that a SUB might make money right off the start but I still think that a F2P model will sutain the game better in todays economy. Take me for instance I work two jobs and some work on the side when ever I can. I work my main job in our local ER and a second job at one of the plants around town as a Security/EMT I make enough money for myself, my wife and two children and I am more than happy to buy content and other store items but a SUB just does not work for me. I am sure I am not the only one this will effect and some that can SUB can also buy content so keep the numbers high I say.

Night Hawke
12-27-2012, 05:34 PM
OK Now I am with you I understand that a SUB might make money right off the start but I still think that a F2P model will sutain the game better in todays economy. Take me for instance I work two jobs and some work on the side when ever I can. I work my main job in our local ER and a second job at one of the plants around town as a Security/EMT I make enough money for myself, my wife and two children and I am more than happy to buy content and other store items but a SUB just does not work for me. I am sure I am not the only one this will effect and some that can SUB can also buy content so keep the numbers high I say.

Man that's a lot of work! out of curiosity how much do you spend monthly on f2p games?

Thayl Ruttgar
12-27-2012, 06:15 PM
Most of the time not much like I said I do work but the way my schedule works makes it better you would have to know my schedule to understand but I put in when I can.

Suun Brakur
12-27-2012, 07:29 PM
F2P there is no free it seems that the serious gamers will get nickle and dime so they can enjoy the game in its entirety. I would like SUB and I get the all the bells and whistle that goes with it. But if both is to exist hopefully SUB have all access to events and activities and F2P limited.

If I have to break out my credit credit every time to keep up with the events and activities, defiance will be a short lived experience for me.

Thayl Ruttgar
12-27-2012, 07:35 PM
I really think think they should look at DDO's model that would great. everyone should check it out and talk to players on there that do both.

smashasaurus
12-30-2012, 01:46 AM
heres an option go buy to play and have a cash shop, this way you avoid the spammers and somewhat negate hackers by making it more pricey when they get banned while drawing in the f2p crowd by having that one time basic price and cash shop. If thats not your cup of tea then go subscription but be warned most sub games iv seen are struggling nowadays so it may be a bad idea.


You have to weight the options

F2P:

pro's:

- High starter playerbase
- Usually easy to pick up and play
- Game usually has a longevity

Cons:

- hackers plague these games as theres no way to keep them out
- they can fail if the cash shop items are useless or too highly priced
- the lack of starter funds because the game is initially free can make updates or expansions take awhile to come out


B2P (w/ cashshop)

Pro's:

- High starter playerbase
- Usually easy to pick up and play
- Game usually has a longevity
- the starter money gives the producer and devs alittle breathing room
- The initial price deters some of the hardcore hacking you see in f2p games

Cons:

- they can fail if the cash shop items are useless or too highly priced
- the f2p diehards of videogames hate paying for games and may revolt



Sub's

Pro's:

- buy the game and the sub and you get all content
- usually with this type of game hacking is minimal
- when a game is in its early stages this allows devs/producers the largest amount of breathing room

Cons:

- high base price for the average user especially console users (xbl + monthly fee + base game cost)
- Sub based games lately have taken a downward spiral and most seem to be going f2p or bankrupt

My money is on buy to play it has the best of both worlds

Black_wraith
12-30-2012, 01:54 AM
one other thing id like to add in, Planetside 2 is a F2p game is being to suffer from population issues. So its pretty safe to say none of these will work in the long run. both ideas will kill the game one slow one quick.

Firebrand
12-30-2012, 02:40 AM
In my opinion, I would safely suggest the Buy to Play model with an optional subscription fee would be the most ideal. A subscription could increase exp gain, in-game currency and possibly even add monthly funds of cash shop currency for the subscriber. I would also suggest a Lifetime subscription to be made available for those who really enjoy the game.

The main reason to utilize the Buy to Play model is due to various console players (mainly the 360 users) already having to subscribe to even utilize the online services of said consoles. Having an additional subscription fee to play the game may cause console gamers to think twice about purchasing the game.

Secondly, I would say the overall Guild Wars style model has been working out a lot better for the companies switching to it. The company can acquire initial funds from customers purchasing the game and the cash shop increases the income based on the sustained player base.

To me, required subscription fees ideally work, but they also may have a minor psychological effect on customers. These subscriptions fees can cause people to feel like they need to play the game for a large amount of hours during the subscription time, otherwise they feel they wasted money. Overall, the longevity of a game's life is based on sustaining a player base.

Required subscription fees can negate the sustainability of a large player base by causing burnouts for a portion of the player base. Many players will easily burn out on the content, get bored and remove his or her subscription before the first month's paid subscription timer is up. Those fees also do not cater as much to casual players as much since a majority of casual players tend to have a limited amount of time to enjoy a game. I am fairly positive that a large majority of casual gamers enjoy their video games but shun the idea of paying $10-15 a month for a game they can only play at an average of an hour a day.

Sidenote: Someone mentioned The Secret World earlier in this thread. The Secret World seems to me that it is actually thriving more now that it went into the Buy to Play model. I log in and I now see a large community of players in that game on the various servers I have characters on rather than it being somewhat deserted. I personally have a lifetime subscription to TSW due to the fact that I like the type of mythological lore they added into the game through various means.

squidgod2000
12-30-2012, 08:06 PM
It'll likely be B2P w/ cash shop and DLC packs. You're not gonna get console players to pay monthly subs.

lycrates
12-30-2012, 10:02 PM
It'll likely be B2P w/ cash shop and DLC packs. You're not gonna get console players to pay monthly subs.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure you are right. If this was a subscription game, Trion would have released that information already. When you make a subscription game you have to build it around that concept, it is not something you can do last minute.

I think its too bad. From my experience, non-subscription games do not have large content updates and they always seem to die off after 6-12 months. Also, having optional DLCs also means that new content is going to be very secondary in nature and not integral to the game, which is a shame.

I think Defiance will be like Guild Wars 2: Lots of people playing it in the first few months and then moving on because there is little new engame progression content. I am definately going to playing it. I was just hoping for a more long-term subscription game with lots of frequent new content to keep us busy.

Nucleotides
12-31-2012, 01:22 AM
I am also looking for a game that I can play for a while. I hope they have enough content at launch to really make the game last. Nothing worst than a game high on promises but low on content so the game launch looks more like a beta.

wee
12-31-2012, 01:48 AM
I am also looking for a game that I can play for a while. I hope they have enough content at launch to really make the game last. Nothing worst than a game high on promises but low on content so the game launch looks more like a beta.

yea me too if theres a lot of things to do (fun instances not guild wars2 instances, open world bosses, crafting, pvp,) paying won't be a problem

Nucleotides
12-31-2012, 03:25 AM
yea me too if theres a lot of things to do (fun instances not guild wars2 instances, open world bosses, crafting, pvp,) paying won't be a problem

Lol I did the very first one you can while leveling and havent been back. I only do wvw at this point and praying for VB to choose me. I don't think a lot of things are going to be instances in this game. It really seems like they want you to pvp while you do anything but we will see what they decide. Just need to not make the "classic" MMO mistake of not having endgame at launch.