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jvp
04-21-2013, 08:55 AM
For those that are old enough to remember a game called Anarchy Online, which launch would you say was more disastrous?

I remember how horribly bad AO was on launch, you would literally enter a building and then immediately start falling through the world. It wasn't just one building either, it was a lot of them. Sometimes you couldn't hand in quests, sometimes you couldn't receive quests, things disappeared from your inventory, and the list goes on and on. I honestly didn't think any game would come close to the disaster that AO was at launch, yet here we are.

EDIT: To be fair, AO apparently did turn into a good game after about six months of major bug fixes. Hopefully it doesn't take that long for this game.

Technodude
04-21-2013, 08:57 AM
Nothing can come close to Anarchy Online sorry.

Orge Lambart
04-21-2013, 08:58 AM
AO was fun, I didn't play it from launch though probably a few years after. I have to say this game is probably one of the worst launch games I can remember, and I've played quite a few games at launch or very shortly after launch. EQ 2 and WOW both played at launch, LOTRO played like 2 - 3 weeks after launch. None of those games had this many glaring issues, people point to WOW, which had a few things going on but nothing in the scope of this game.

Seriously I think they went to a state college, pulled out a few first year students and asked them if they wanted a job coding a major release...

RegularX
04-21-2013, 08:59 AM
For those that are old enough to remember a game called Anarchy Online, which launch would you say was more disastrous?

I remember how horribly bad AO was on launch, you would literally enter a building and then immediately start falling through the world. It wasn't just one building either, it was a lot of them. Sometimes you couldn't hand in quests, sometimes you couldn't receive quests, things disappeared from your inventory, and the list goes on and on. I honestly didn't think any game would come close to the disaster that AO was at launch, yet here we are.

I didn't play AO, I had abandoned PC MMO's by then.

But based on your description I would so no. Not even close. Defiance is buggy sure, but the buildings aren't falling through the world. I'm not spawning into the landscape. I'm not being killed by enemies which invisibly spawn in front of me. I'm not shooting at phantom opponents that appear to be in one location but aren't. I'm not getting killed at my home base by a bunch of grenade tossing griefers. I'm not getting griefed by someone random ******* in the game who has decided it his personal vendetta to spawn to my location and kill me repeatedly.

That wasn't AO, that was PlanetSide. And it sounds like AO was worse.

So no, Defiance doesn't seem to be anywhere near in that category.

Munx
04-21-2013, 09:00 AM
Anarchy was much worse, and it turned into a hell of a game.

Then again Vanguard made Anarchy online look like a well polished game, which makes me wonder how vanguard scored a 7.5 at gamespot.

Cutlass Jack
04-21-2013, 09:01 AM
Nothing can come close to Anarchy Online sorry.

This. Its not even a question. Defiance isn't even in the top 10 of disastrous launches I've played through.

Funcom also holds the number Two spot with Age of Conan. However, its worth noting both games are still running, and get updates. And Secret World lauched comparatively much better, though at least for me, Defiance ran better at launch.

But to be fair, if we're doing company comparisons, Rift was one of the smoothest launches I've played in.

Kisrin
04-21-2013, 09:02 AM
For those that are old enough to remember a game called Anarchy Online, which launch would you say was more disastrous?

I remember how horribly bad AO was on launch, you would literally enter a building and then immediately start falling through the world. It wasn't just one building either, it was a lot of them. Sometimes you couldn't hand in quests, sometimes you couldn't receive quests, things disappeared from your inventory, and the list goes on and on. I honestly didn't think any game would come close to the disaster that AO was at launch, yet here we are.

EDIT: To be fair, AO apparently did turn into a good game after about six months of major bug fixes. Hopefully it doesn't take that long for this game.

OMG AO was the worst by far. I still have nightmares about that launch. Some of their launch bugs weren't fixed for a year or two. Some . . . are still there.

It was a great game for it's time, but the Defiance launch in comparison is load better.

Technodude
04-21-2013, 09:03 AM
Anarchy was much worse, and it turned into a hell of a game.

Then again Vanguard made Anarchy online look like a well polished game, which makes me wonder how vanguard scored a 7.5 at gamespot.

Vanguard ratings varied a lot. But for those who fell in love with its open world game play like non instanced dungeons, no loading screens, ability to build boats and houses, deep crafting system, political system..(i can go on and on) probably decided to over look how buggy the game was.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 09:04 AM
AO definitely failed hard, much harder than defiance.
That being said, AO still has a paying subscriber base, and still going after over a decade.

Orge Lambart
04-21-2013, 09:04 AM
I think all the quality devs are still over there on rift, while Defiance got stuck with B level, fresh out of high school, first year college students developers. If that isn't the case, I can't really figure out why the game would after 3 weeks still be in such a state. The only thing they have managed to really get right has been removing key codes from emergency events.

Cutlass Jack
04-21-2013, 09:06 AM
Vanguard ratings varied a lot. But for those who fell in love with its open world game play like non instanced dungeons, no loading screens, ability to build boats and houses, deep crafting system, political system..(i can go on and on) probably decided to over look how buggy the game was.

Vanguard was a hot mess of a launch. Probably the third worst launch I played in. But I did have a soft spot for much of the reasons you listed above. Actually crafting my own Galleon by hand, plank by plank, over weeks of playtime and sailing it around and open world was probably one of my most memorable feelings of accomplishment I ever had in an MMO.

But the game was (and still is) a mess.

Malloci
04-21-2013, 09:08 AM
Anarchy was much worse, and it turned into a hell of a game.

Then again Vanguard made Anarchy online look like a well polished game, which makes me wonder how vanguard scored a 7.5 at gamespot.

AO had a horrible launch, vanguard had a bad launch if you didnt have a really good pc. but I think AOC(conan) had the worse launch I had ever been in, but it may not have been as bad as AO because I left that game the first day and never went back.

I think this game is boring and needs content really soon but I would not say its even in the top ten bad launches of mmos.

Nymisis
04-21-2013, 09:08 AM
For those that are old enough to remember a game called Anarchy Online, which launch would you say was more disastrous?

I remember how horribly bad AO was on launch, you would literally enter a building and then immediately start falling through the world. It wasn't just one building either, it was a lot of them. Sometimes you couldn't hand in quests, sometimes you couldn't receive quests, things disappeared from your inventory, and the list goes on and on. I honestly didn't think any game would come close to the disaster that AO was at launch, yet here we are.

EDIT: To be fair, AO apparently did turn into a good game after about six months of major bug fixes. Hopefully it doesn't take that long for this game.

AO was completely unplayable at launch. I haven't encountered anything close to that disastrous with Defiance. I would put the Defiance launch closer to the problems that Cryptic had with CoH.

Malloci
04-21-2013, 09:12 AM
I think all the quality devs are still over there on rift, while Defiance got stuck with B level, fresh out of high school, first year college students developers. If that isn't the case, I can't really figure out why the game would after 3 weeks still be in such a state. The only thing they have managed to really get right has been removing key codes from emergency events.

Why was removing keycodes from emergencies a good thing? I still haven't seen anyone give a good reason why anyone should even do emergencies anymore.

Orge Lambart
04-21-2013, 09:16 AM
Why was removing keycodes from emergencies a good thing? I still haven't seen anyone give a good reason why anyone should even do emergencies anymore.

It wasn't a good thing but it's still the only thing they have properly implemented. I wonder why, could it be because it was having a negative effect on people using money to buy T4 boxes?

Jeff Kaos
04-21-2013, 09:24 AM
I don't really care how crummy an MMO launch was 10 years ago when they were a fairly new phenomena; I'll give past MMO launches a pass. But now that MMO's have been around for as long as they have it's inexcusable to launch one that has as many bugs as Defiance has. I refuse to lean on the "it's an mmo and every mmo has launch issues" crutch. If gamers don't start to hold mmo developers accountable for launching buggy games "because they're all buggy" than we'll continue buying buggy titles and hope that interest in them will last long enough for them to make it the game we all thought we were buying in the first place. I understand how difficult it must be to design an mmo but I also know that if in my job I did sub-par work I doubt I could get away with saying "everyone else's work is bad so don't judge mine".

IGears
04-21-2013, 09:26 AM
Defiance by a mile...lolAnarchyOnline

Technodude
04-21-2013, 09:26 AM
I don't really care how crummy an MMO launch was 10 years ago when they were a fairly new phenomena; I'll give past MMO launches a pass. But now that MMO's have been around for as long as they have it's inexcusable to launch one that has as many bugs as Defiance has. I refuse to lean on the "it's an mmo and every mmo has launch issues" crutch. If gamers don't start to hold mmo developers accountable for launching buggy games "because they're all buggy" than we'll continue buying buggy titles and hope that interest in them will last long enough for them to make it the game we all thought we were buying in the first place. I understand how difficult it must be to design an mmo but I also know that if in my job I did sub-par work I doubt I could get away with saying "everyone else's work is bad so don't judge mine".

I agree with you on this. We are in 2013 now with better technology and infrastructure. Maybe it was ok 10 years ago but we should expect better quality now.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 09:39 AM
Defiance by a mile...lolAnarchyOnline

must not have played AO then....

oexto
04-21-2013, 09:41 AM
Definitely Anarchy Online...that launch was god awful....and the next year after that was painful as well. It eventually grew up and blossomed into a great game, but dat launch...ouch.

Don't get me wrong, Defiance is pretty bad, and it ranks right up there...but AO, hands down.

IGears
04-21-2013, 09:42 AM
must not have played AO then....

yeah i did years ago, i played a 14 day trial of the game and i got to a point were i couldnt do quest without a group to complete... pissed me off...

Khufu
04-21-2013, 09:42 AM
must not have played AO then....

More like he didn't read the actual gist of the thread and is claiming Defiance to be a better game than AO not which was a more bungled launch.

I think AO is a better game but Defiance had a better launch.

Munx
04-21-2013, 09:43 AM
AO had a horrible launch, vanguard had a bad launch if you didnt have a really good pc. but I think AOC(conan) had the worse launch I had ever been in, but it may not have been as bad as AO because I left that game the first day and never went back.

I think this game is boring and needs content really soon but I would not say its even in the top ten bad launches of mmos.

? conans launch had issues, but they cant even compare to AO or vanguard.

And lets be fair in regards to vanguard, I went to give it another chance 1 year after launch, and after about 5 mins I got feel trough and got stuck inside one of the many massive walls near the starter area.

The biggest vanguard issues wernt due to players pcs.


And yes Techno, you are right vanguard did try to add alot of new things to the mix, to varying degrees of sucsess.

oexto
04-21-2013, 09:44 AM
yeah i did years ago, i played a 14 day trial of the game and i got to a point were i couldnt do quest without a group to complete... pissed me off...

Yeah, WTF is up with these Massively Singleplayer Online games anyway?? Groups? Why would anyone want to do that..pft.


I keed...don't furiously respond ;)

ironhands
04-21-2013, 09:45 AM
yeah i did years ago, i played a 14 day trial of the game and i got to a point were i couldnt do quest without a group to complete... pissed me off...

That's because it's an MMORPG....it's meant to be played with a full group...

ironhands
04-21-2013, 09:46 AM
More like he didn't read the actual gist of the thread and is claiming Defiance to be a better game than AO not which was a more bungled launch.

I think AO is a better game but Defiance had a better launch.

Clearly, but it's hard to claim either is better than the other, considering they're a different genre, and a decade apart. I do love me some AO though.

IGears
04-21-2013, 09:47 AM
Yeah, WTF is up with these Massively Singleplayer Online games anyway?? Groups? Why would anyone want to do that..pft.

I could play Tabula Rasa by myself except for the Base Defenses.. those were impossible by yourself

Kisrin
04-21-2013, 09:48 AM
I don't really care how crummy an MMO launch was 10 years ago when they were a fairly new phenomena; I'll give past MMO launches a pass. But now that MMO's have been around for as long as they have it's inexcusable to launch one that has as many bugs as Defiance has. I refuse to lean on the "it's an mmo and every mmo has launch issues" crutch. If gamers don't start to hold mmo developers accountable for launching buggy games "because they're all buggy" than we'll continue buying buggy titles and hope that interest in them will last long enough for them to make it the game we all thought we were buying in the first place. I understand how difficult it must be to design an mmo but I also know that if in my job I did sub-par work I doubt I could get away with saying "everyone else's work is bad so don't judge mine".

But it's a game across three platforms. Other than FF using the xbox, I can't think of an online game using all three at once. I'm honestly surprised the game isn't more broken.

I can't speak for anyone else, but beings this is a new game design, a buggy launch isn't so bad to me. I'd rather stick with it. If Defiance does well, hopefully more companies will do this.

Hopefully in another 10 years this will be standard concept.

The correlations between mmos 10 years ago and Defiance across all platforms is insanely valid. They were/are a new concept. There's not really much for them to fall back on.

*Sniff* we're cross platform pioneers.

jk/jk

Technodude
04-21-2013, 09:49 AM
That's because it's an MMORPG....it's meant to be played with a full group...

Grouping up and playing with others is now something exclusive to MMO RPG's ? who makes up these rules? you?

Munx
04-21-2013, 09:50 AM
Not sure if I agree that a game being released 10+ years before this one is a good excuse for it being riddled with issues.

While its true we got better technology and such today, it is also much more complex, which opens up to a bunch of new issues, not to mention it being on multiple platforms. (edited)

On a diffrent note, I have to question your comment about mmorpgs being ment to played in a full group ironhands, In my opinion Mmorpgs/mmos are ment to give you the possiblity of playing if a full group when and if you choose to do so, however it is also ment to give you the possibility of playing solo or duo when you feel so inclined.

Khufu
04-21-2013, 09:52 AM
Not sure if I agree that a game being released 10+ years before this one is a good excuse for it being riddled with issues.

While its true we got better technology and such today, it is also much more complex, which opens up to a bunch of new issues, not to mention the cross platform point which a poster above me brought up.

It's not truly cross platform if the platforms never cross one another. Next excuse?

Technodude
04-21-2013, 09:53 AM
It's not truly cross platform if the platforms never cross one another. Next excuse?

They have different teams to handle pc and consoles so i am also not buying cross platform excuse either.

Munx
04-21-2013, 09:53 AM
Sorry, I should have said on multiple platforms ;)

And I don't really see the game needing any excuses for why it has issues, very few mmos don't at launch.

Khufu
04-21-2013, 09:55 AM
Sorry, I should have said on multiple platforms ;)

And I don't really see the game needing any excuses for why it has issues, very few mmos don't at launch.

If the people buying the games stopped insisting that "this is the way MMOs work" maybe the publishers of these kinds of games would spend more time polishing the games instead of rushing them out the door. Change has to happen somewhere, eventually.

Munx
04-21-2013, 09:59 AM
If the people buying the games stopped insisting that "this is the way MMOs work" maybe the publishers of these kinds of games would spend more time polishing the games instead of rushing them out the door. Change has to happen somewhere, eventually.

While I totally agree publishers need to stop rushing games out the door, I would however say it is unfair to assume that all of these bugs would even become apparent before the game released to a full-sized audience.

And in defiances case I would say I understand it being rushed a bit more so then I would in most other cases, because it is infact connected to a tv series, and they built the game from scratch under the assumption that the game would release slightly before the series.

Khufu
04-21-2013, 10:01 AM
And in defiances case I would say I understand it being rushed a bit more so then I would in most other cases, because it is infact connected to a tv series, and they built the game from scratch under the assumption that the game would release slightly before the series.

That's just poor management on Trion's part but because the nature of this industry game companies can release half-done games. It's ridiculous really.

Munx
04-21-2013, 10:08 AM
That's just poor management on Trion's part but because the nature of this industry game companies can release half-done games. It's ridiculous really.

Poor management? I can't speak to your background in the game industry, but I cannot even imagine the undertaking a project like this is, or the various minefields it involves, Personally I would say trion managed quite well considering the fact that the game had to be out before series.

And I really wouldnt go anywhere near as far as saying defiance is half-done, It has issues, quite a few infact, but that dosnt make the game "half-done".

ironhands
04-21-2013, 10:20 AM
Grouping up and playing with others is now something exclusive to MMO RPG's ? who makes up these rules? you?

You flipped the logic. I have no idea how you came to that interpretation.

MMORPG games are designed from the ground up in almost every case to be played in groups. AO was designed as a typical MMORPG for its time, meaning you were expected to form a group.

Shismar
04-21-2013, 10:24 AM
It will be hard for any game to beat the AO launch. Defiance is trying, but not even close. The client is much too stable and thex even got the server mostly stable too (not always so in betas). Whatever happened with PC-NA ...

Technodude
04-21-2013, 10:24 AM
You flipped the logic. I have no idea how you came to that interpretation.

MMORPG games are designed from the ground up in almost every case to be played in groups. AO was designed as a typical MMORPG for its time, meaning you were expected to form a group.

All MMOS regardless of what acronym you use at the end are designed to be played with others. grouping is not compulsory but to say that it is MMORPG so it is designed to be played with groups is wrong. For example Mortal Online is MMOFPS sandbox game and is focused on playing with other players. But recently it is not just defiance but evven modern MMORPG are getting more and more solo oriented. This is new MMO trend and not RPG trend.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 10:27 AM
Not sure if I agree that a game being released 10+ years before this one is a good excuse for it being riddled with issues.

While its true we got better technology and such today, it is also much more complex, which opens up to a bunch of new issues, not to mention it being on multiple platforms. (edited)

On a diffrent note, I have to question your comment about mmorpgs being ment to played in a full group ironhands, In my opinion Mmorpgs/mmos are ment to give you the possiblity of playing if a full group when and if you choose to do so, however it is also ment to give you the possibility of playing solo or duo when you feel so inclined.

I didn't suggest that the time difference has any bearing on bugs, I was referring to the fact it's difficult to compare the gameplay quality, but you are correct, an MMO release 10-15 years ago was a different beast. Lots were still using dial-up connections, the overall bandwidth was lower, and graphic quality was very very different.

10-15 years ago, no, MMORPG games weren't meant to be played solo from what I've seen, they were still pretty new and really pushed the mutiplayer interaction, because at the time, there weren't a lot of multiplayer games, period.

The change to allow for more solo or duo options has evolved, and changed. I wasn't talking about the market, now, I was talking about the market, then.

Multigun
04-21-2013, 10:30 AM
Didn't play AO but was "old enough" to know what it was. Games that had much worse launches (mmo or otherwise) then Defiant in no logical order:

Age of Conan
Vanguard
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Diablo 3
Planetside
RF Online
Hellgate London
Tabula Rasa
Aion
World of Warcraft (has time really erased how bad a launch that was? )
Final Fantasy XIV

And the list could go on and on and on...

ironhands
04-21-2013, 10:31 AM
All MMOS regardless of what acronym you use at the end are designed to be played with others. grouping is not compulsory but to say that it is MMORPG so it is designed to be played with groups is wrong. For example Mortal Online is MMOFPS sandbox game and is focused on playing with other players. But recently it is not just defiance but evven modern MMORPG are getting more and more solo oriented. This is new MMO trend and not RPG trend.

Yes, but at no point did I even remotely imply that it was exclusive to MMORPG games. When AO was made, it was made to be played with a group, because at the time, it was what people expected. Grouping was "new" and fun. Just because I said it was expected to be in AO, doesn't mean other games can't have grouping options, I don't know how you can have interpreted my statement that way.

Yes, many current games provide solo alternatives, but I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about AO, which was designed for group play. Solo options do exist, but it was more tailored to the group dynamic.

Dist0rt3d Hum0r
04-21-2013, 10:41 AM
I do agree tha this game seems to have been rushed out, but that should have been a common sense thing with it being tied to a TV show. Any time that a game is tied to anything period it will be rushed, have less features then what was "promised", and have bugs. Hell, The Elderscrolls games are all SP and have bugs, but they're still insanely fun games, such as is defiance.

Now, on to the "this is 2013 there's no excuse" comments. They are not excuses. Facts are not excuses. A fact is a fact, not an excuse. So, now let us look at the facts. 10 years ago MMO's were still relatively new, thus it was not uncommon for issues to arise at launch or for launches to be completely unplayable. Why? Because companies did not have a whole lot to go off of and were, for lack of a better term, taking stabs in the dark.

Now, lets move to present day. Yes, technology has advanced in 10 years, but, as someone else has stated, things have also become much more complex. More complex means much more room for error, and room for more errors that had never been encountered before. With new ideas comes new problems. Basically, there is very little advantage that Defiance's launch had over AO's. Timeline means very little. If anything, Trion had many more issues that could have surfaced due to a much more complicated system, but they passed it adequately. Most of the "major bugs" that we saw at launch have been fixed or are in the process of being fixed.

"Trion's patches are making the game worse!" In a sense, yes, because they will sometimes bring up other issues that were not present before the patch. In another sense, no, because there is no possible way for Trion to be able to test for every single little problem. Many of the problems that will arise from past and current patches will have been and be seen for the first time by the Devs. Trion will fix them as they come up.

"Trion is a vet company. There's no excuse for these bugs!" True that Trion is a vet company, but even vets make mistakes or come across things that they have never encountered or seen before. The only conceivable way that Trion could have possible fixed these issues before launch is if they had done a beta test to the scale of the actual player base rather than the smaller groups that companies are so fond of. IMO, releasing a demo of the game to everyone would give a good pool of feedback and allow accurate server stress testing. This is just my opinion though, and I realize that this is most likely not possible.

All in all though, this is not due to "Poor Management" and Trion is not making up "excuses" to try to shift blame. Look at Rift and how well that game did on launch, and how well it still does. Trion isn't making up excuses for its mistakes, but is rather telling us how it is. If you choose to take that as an excuse, then so be it.

TL;DR: Then don't reply to my post. There is no excuse for ignorance.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 10:55 AM
With a lot of the people complaining about lost items, and the recent rollback/ego jump - I wonder how much of that is, or can be, attributed to people attempting to create new exploits/hacks causing server disruptions. I wonder if someone, somewhere, is sitting there knowing full well their attempt to boost their own XP caused a massive server glitch.

Technodude
04-21-2013, 11:00 AM
TL;DR: Then don't reply to my post. There is no excuse for ignorance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/mickey234/crying_baby_zps964a4908.jpg

Matsuri_Synapze777
04-21-2013, 11:06 AM
Divorce in a box. Hehe, just talked about Defiance a bit with an old friend of mine that used to play Everquest (yes, the 1st one, yes the one that was insane and nothing was easy mode)... and how the event's spawns locations had buggged me for hours reminded me of his stories from Everquest.

I think there should be some mad hard things to do in Defiance. Things that would take you an entire week to achieve or longer, things that would make your wife file for divorce. That would be a nice tribute to old veterans of the good ol' mmo style :)

Dist0rt3d Hum0r
04-21-2013, 11:19 AM
Divorce in a box. Hehe, just talked about Defiance a bit with an old friend of mine that used to play Everquest (yes, the 1st one, yes the one that was insane and nothing was easy mode)... and how the event's spawns locations had buggged me for hours reminded me of his stories from Everquest.

I think there should be some mad hard things to do in Defiance. Things that would take you an entire week to achieve or longer, things that would make your wife file for divorce. That would be a nice tribute to old veterans of the good ol' mmo style :)

I would love to see that, but with this impatient entitlement generation? Bad for business. :p

@Techodude: would have been better if you had found one of the Leave Britney alone guy. :p

Munx
04-21-2013, 11:20 AM
I didn't suggest that the time difference has any bearing on bugs, I was referring to the fact it's difficult to compare the gameplay quality, but you are correct, an MMO release 10-15 years ago was a different beast. Lots were still using dial-up connections, the overall bandwidth was lower, and graphic quality was very very different.

10-15 years ago, no, MMORPG games weren't meant to be played solo from what I've seen, they were still pretty new and really pushed the mutiplayer interaction, because at the time, there weren't a lot of multiplayer games, period.

The change to allow for more solo or duo options has evolved, and changed. I wasn't talking about the market, now, I was talking about the market, then.

Only the last part was directed at you ironhands.

But in regards to this, I have to ask when did this evolution happen in your mind? cause I remeber playing mainly solo during games such as eq, and I did in no way get punished for it, or pushed toward grouping.

Infact a alot of the various epic components were just as easy to aquire solo as grouped, some of the best loot in game could be found by soloing spawns.

Thats not to say I didn't tag along with guilds such a Forsaken Realm from time to time for grp content or raids, afterall the multiplayer experience is definatly a part of mmos, but a majority of the day I would be running solo, as would most people.

Im sorry but mmos were never about grouping, it was about having a persistent world where you could interact with other players, and if you choose to you could group with them, however the solo element of mmos have been just as strong as the grouping element of mmos for as long as I can remeber.


Edit: Techno could you resize that into a signature for me? its badass.

Edit2: Matsuri, Yeah don't think people would've reacted to well these days to the raids that took upward of a year for the top guilds to clear, or camping raster for days at a time hehe.

MacDeath
04-21-2013, 11:23 AM
I was there for the launch of AO. It was unplayable. Defiance has some flaws but it's a very playable game. No contest.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 11:36 AM
Only the last part was directed at you ironhands.

But in regards to this, I have to ask when did this evolution happen in your mind? cause I remeber playing mainly solo during games such as eq, and I did in no way get punished for it, or pushed toward grouping.

Infact a alot of the various epic components were just as easy to aquire solo as grouped, some of the best loot in game could be found by soloing spawns.

Thats not to say I didn't tag along with guilds such a Forsaken Realm from time to time, afterall the multiplayer experience is definatly a part of mmos, but a majority of the day I would be running solo, as would most people.

Im sorry but mmos were never about grouping, it was about having a persistent world where you could interact with other players, and if you choose to you could group with them, however the solo element of mmos have been just as strong as the grouping element of mmos for as long as I can remeber.

It was a slow progression, once more people got high speed data connection, the lines between single and multiplayer began to blur, especially once competition really began across the MMO field. I think it likely started around WoW, when other games began to lose numbers, they needed an alternative when a group of the right dynamic couldn't easily be found.

Solo, in EQ? EQ is incredibly difficult to handle solo for any serious content. I did many many years in EQ, played a wizard in a top end guild. Could solo a lot of things, but the only way to really accomplish anything required a very solid group, and none of the best loot could be found solo, unless you're talking about the first year or so. Raid level gear is far better than anything you could possible hope to solo, so I don't know where you're getting that information.

Yes, an MMO at its core is a persistent world, and yes, you can interact however you like, but the game was designed with group play in mind. Some solo content, of course, but the majority, is group.

Munx
04-21-2013, 11:54 AM
Ironhands, I was about 14 back when i started eq, and while it was most definatly more difficult then todays mmos, it was very much soloable.

If you are talking about endgame content such as raids, ofc mainly not soloable (Though duoing/tri-boxing parts of plane of nightmare was very much possible.)

Buts lets be honest raids/dungeons are just one aspect of the game and there were just as much to do solo, as there were raids and dungeons. And to this day, raids is not solo content.

Non of the best stuff?

Tranquil staff, Flowing black silk sash, fungus covered scale tunic (each of which were best in slot for monks for quite some time).

Not to mention the AoW pants which while required a raid to loot, they could be purchased of said raid group.

And thats just the monk specific gear.

I was in Nordstjarna and Illuminati both of which were just about the highest quality guilds you could get into on mith marr at the age range I was in, and I frequently ran with forsaken realm (gamer parent) which was argueably the second most sucsessful guild across the servers, so while I know the value of having a group or a guild in eq, It was most definatly in no way required to get a full experience.

Infact my my first year of eq, I barley grouped at all as I was embarresed at my horrible english(and yes I know its still far from perfect), I still managed to grind my way to max level solo, and often bewildered myself into content ment for grps.

Farming sand giants was alot of fun ;)


I often find it that people overestimate how much Wow changed the industry, wow = eq with more streamlined questing, overall easier gameplay, less grindy, smaller and less complex raids and "cartoony" graphics.

Then again the real stroke of genius by blizzard was the timing for theyr release.

Nymisis
04-21-2013, 12:00 PM
Grouping up and playing with others is now something exclusive to MMO RPG's ? who makes up these rules? you?

That isn't even REMOTELY what he said. Try going back to school for some reading comprehension before posting.

EdgeTW
04-21-2013, 12:04 PM
Nothing can come close to Anarchy Online sorry.

Yeah, AO is the is the all time record holder. I think there were daily status updates on progress going for over a month.

That said, they had an awesome foundation to build off of and become a really good game. It just.. was horribly broken at launch. There's a big difference between having content and being broken, and being too light on content (and buggy) to begin with.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 12:06 PM
Ironhands, I was about 14 back when i started eq, and while it was most definatly more difficult then todays mmos, it was very much soloable.

If you are talking about endgame content such as raids, ofc mainly not soloable (Though duoing/tri-boxing parts of plane of nightmare was very much possible.)

Buts lets be honest raids/dungeons are just one aspect of the game and there were just as much to do solo, as there were raids and dungeons. And to this day, raids is not solo content.

Non of the best stuff?

Tranquil staff, Flowing black silk sash, fungus covered scale tunic (each of which were best in slot for monks for quite some time).

Not to mention the AoW pants which while required a raid to loot, they could be purchased of said raid group.

And thats just the monk specific gear.

I was in Nordstjarna and Illuminati both of which were just about the highest quality guilds you could get into on mith marr at the age range I was in, and I frequently ran with forsaken realm (gamer parent) which was argueably the second most sucsessful guild across the servers, so while I know the value of having a group or a guild in eq, It was most definatly in no way required to get a full experience.

Infact my my first year of eq, I barley grouped at all as I was embarresed at my horrible english, I still managed to grind my way to max level solo, and often bewildered myself into content ment for grps.

Farming sand giants was alot of fun ;)

PARTS of the game are soloable, not all. To achieve the best, raids are required, raids are grouping. I didn't say that it didn't have parts that can be done solo, in fact, i said I could solo quite a lot, but you cannot complete the main story of any expansion without grouping, hence, "designed with grouping in mind". Raid level gear is in almost every case far superior to any soloable gear, sure, you've found 3 examples, that were, for a while, the best slot for a specific class, but how many slots of gear are there? Fine, I'll amend my original statement. In almost every instance, raid level gear is far superior to soloable items.

None of that changes the fact, that at its core, it was designed for group play. Just because you can solo something, doesn't mean that it wasn't designed to be done in groups.

duo/triboxing is also technically grouping. Just because you're controlling multiple accounts at once, doesn't mean that it's not grouped.

Zantium
04-21-2013, 12:09 PM
On PC at least this had a pretty good launch so it has to be Anarchy Online by a mile. Certainly a better launch than SWTOR or GW2 had.

Yokai
04-21-2013, 12:11 PM
Honestly, it's a close call between the bugginess of AO launch and Defiance launch. However, remember that AO was buggy and bad for more than a month after launch! It took roughly 3 months to really settle down and become stable and fun. So Trion still has some time to leave AO as the all-time winner for horrible launches.

Munx
04-21-2013, 12:21 PM
PARTS of the game are soloable, not all. To achieve the best, raids are required, raids are grouping. I didn't say that it didn't have parts that can be done solo, in fact, i said I could solo quite a lot, but you cannot complete the main story of any expansion without grouping, hence, "designed with grouping in mind". Raid level gear is in almost every case far superior to any soloable gear, sure, you've found 3 examples, that were, for a while, the best slot for a specific class, but how many slots of gear are there? Fine, I'll amend my original statement. In almost every instance, raid level gear is far superior to soloable items.

None of that changes the fact, that at its core, it was designed for group play. Just because you can solo something, doesn't mean that it wasn't designed to be done in groups.

duo/triboxing is also technically grouping. Just because you're controlling multiple accounts at once, doesn't mean that it's not grouped.

Those were 3 examples at the top of my head, there were ALOT more, not to mention ALOT of gear was infact not bind on pickup for the longest time, which in turn means anyone could aquire them solo.

Story? lets be honest eq didnt have a whole lot of that :), and if you mean the hunt for the class specific epics, alot of that like I pointed out earlier was soloable.

Sorry, but if some of the raid gear being better, and the hardest endgame being designed for raidgroups, ment that the game was mainly designed for grouping, then by that logic pretty much every game to date was designed mainly for grouping, something which you earlier claimed they had evolved from.

And lets not forget that eq had an abundance of RP servers, which has pretty much 0 to do with grouping, it had to do with social interaction.

as for Duo/triboxing it was just an example, I wandered in there solo aswell, and like I said often farmed group content.

I generally respect your opinions on this forum ironhands, but I guees this is just something we are gonna have to agree to disagree about :)

Malloci
04-21-2013, 12:22 PM
Ironhands, I was about 14 back when i started eq, and while it was most definatly more difficult then todays mmos, it was very much soloable.

If you are talking about endgame content such as raids, ofc mainly not soloable (Though duoing/tri-boxing parts of plane of nightmare was very much possible.)

Buts lets be honest raids/dungeons are just one aspect of the game and there were just as much to do solo, as there were raids and dungeons. And to this day, raids is not solo content.

Non of the best stuff?

Tranquil staff, Flowing black silk sash, fungus covered scale tunic (each of which were best in slot for monks for quite some time).

Not to mention the AoW pants which while required a raid to loot, they could be purchased of said raid group.

And thats just the monk specific gear.

I was in Nordstjarna and Illuminati both of which were just about the highest quality guilds you could get into on mith marr at the age range I was in, and I frequently ran with forsaken realm (gamer parent) which was argueably the second most sucsessful guild across the servers, so while I know the value of having a group or a guild in eq, It was most definatly in no way required to get a full experience.

Infact my my first year of eq, I barley grouped at all as I was embarresed at my horrible english(and yes I know its still far from perfect), I still managed to grind my way to max level solo, and often bewildered myself into content ment for grps.

Farming sand giants was alot of fun ;)


I often find it that people overestimate how much Wow changed the industry, wow = eq with more streamlined questing, overall easier gameplay, less grindy, smaller and less complex raids and "cartoony" graphics.

Then again the real stroke of genius by blizzard was the timing for theyr release.

When did you start playing eq? I played since release, I was there when the first dragon died and I was in a top progression guild until we cleared pop and I quit for good.

In the first few years of that game no class could solo anything significant, necros and druids were the only ones that could even level totally solo without it taking 2 years to hit 50. the game got a little more solo friendly and eaiser with expansions if you count going into zones you have out leveled, but wow was the game that made mmo difficulty trivial outisde of the raid environment.

Malloci
04-21-2013, 12:29 PM
Story? lets be honest eq didnt have a whole lot of that :), and if you mean the hunt for the class specific epics, alot of that like I pointed out earlier was soloable.

LOL, EQ had more story than any mmo I can think of to date, every single god had a huge back story and there were like 9 of them? it was just old style if you wanted the story you had to look for it.

And yeah a lot of the steps in class specicific epics were soloable and meant to be, but none of them were totally soloable unless ofcourse you did them at 60 or 80 since the quests were level 50 or 55? I finished the first epic in eq, ragebringer and there was 150 people from every guild on our server in kithicor forest for the last fight, lol and we needed them.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 12:30 PM
Those were 3 examples at the top of my head, there were ALOT more, not to mention ALOT of gear was infact not bind on pickup for the longest time, which in turn means anyone could aquire them solo.

Story? lets be honest eq didnt have a whole lot of that :), and if you mean the hunt for the class specific epics, alot of that like I pointed out earlier was soloable.

Sorry, but if some of the raid gear being better, and the hardest endgame being designed for raidgroups, ment that the game was mainly designed for grouping, then by that logic pretty much every game to date was designed mainly for grouping, something which you earlier claimed they had evolved from.

And lets not forget that eq had an abundance of RP servers, which has pretty much 0 to do with grouping, it had to do with social interaction.

as for Duo/triboxing it was just an example, I wandered in there solo aswell, and like I said often farmed group content.

I generally respect your opinions on this forum ironhands, but I guees this is just something we are gonna have to agree to disagree about :)

You are mixing up an important fact here.. Soloable =/= designed to be solo. Just because it can be done, does not mean it was intended to be.

The RP servers, by design, were more in line with grouping. You don't RP solo.

Munx
04-21-2013, 12:34 PM
I wasnt talking about backstory malloci.

I started about 1 year after release, and yeah It was soloable.

And Yes it felt like 2 years to hit cap, dosnt mean it took 2 years.


Obviously rping is not a solo act, haha, also dosnt make it solely grouping act however.

And it is very much something a solo player can partake in when roaming the world.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 12:36 PM
LOL, EQ had more story than any mmo I can think of to date, every single god had a huge back story and there were like 9 of them? it was just old style if you wanted the story you had to look for it.

And yeah a lot of the steps in class specicific epics were soloable and meant to be, but none of them were totally soloable unless ofcourse you did them at 60 or 80 since the quests were level 50 or 55? I finished the first epic in eq, ragebringer and there was 150 people from every guild on our server in kithicor forest for the last fight, lol and we needed them.

I actually solo'd my Wizard Epic, granted, i think i was level 75 or so. I had everything ready to go, I just needed phinny, venril sathirs remains, and a drop from the fear golem. I woke up in the middle of the night once, and thought hey, maybe i'll go see if he's there. found him, killed him in one shot, and he had the item. first time i'd ever seen the zone, stumbled on him by accident. figured hey, why not check for VS, so ported over and the remains were there. figured my luck was high, so i ran to fear, just in time to see someone finishing off the golem. grabbed my items and bolted. the odds of all of that happening in the 45 mins, are incredibly small. originally, the wizard epic required taking down a god, definitely not solable at the time, nor intended to be.

Defy
04-21-2013, 12:37 PM
Defiance launch wasn't smooth but certainly not disastrous as ao, simcity, or diablo 3

Malloci
04-21-2013, 12:40 PM
I wasnt talking about backstory malloci.

I started about 1 and a half year after release, and yeah It was soloable.

I can also dig a swimming pool with the barrel of my shotgun, it doesn't mean that's what it was meant for. EQ was not feasibly soloable for 80% of the classes period, if you were soloing you were doing it wrong and causing yourself much more grief than was necessary even if you were using one of the classes that were more suited for soloing.

Krovar
04-21-2013, 12:40 PM
I still play Anarchy Online.. This game will be shut down long before it hopes to reach that age :)

Malloci
04-21-2013, 12:42 PM
I actually solo'd my Wizard Epic, granted, i think i was level 75 or so. I had everything ready to go, I just needed phinny, venril sathirs remains, and a drop from the fear golem. I woke up in the middle of the night once, and thought hey, maybe i'll go see if he's there. found him, killed him in one shot, and he had the item. first time i'd ever seen the zone, stumbled on him by accident. figured hey, why not check for VS, so ported over and the remains were there. figured my luck was high, so i ran to fear, just in time to see someone finishing off the golem. grabbed my items and bolted. the odds of all of that happening in the 45 mins, are incredibly small. originally, the wizard epic required taking down a god, definitely not solable at the time, nor intended to be.

And I could probably solo ragebringer now if I was max level and was still the best geared rogue on the server, but I wouldn't call the game soloable because I soloed a quest 25 levels below me.

Munx
04-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Defiance launch wasn't smooth but certainly not disastrous as ao, simcity, or diablo 3

Reminds me just how offtopic I have brought us lol.


Once again, I will just have to agree to disagree with the two off you, I cannot speak to how eq was the first year of launch, but to me as a 14 year old It was very much soloable in its second year.

Once again, sorry for bringing this thread offtopic, Nostalgi is a ***** :)

Mal3fact0r
04-21-2013, 12:49 PM
Gamers have been talking about holding game companies accountable for years, yet they still fork over the cash on launch day (or headstart). The only way I can see it possibly changing (ignoring the fact that software will always have bugs and problems) is if people refuse to purchase at launch en masse, which, given the history so far isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

Money talks.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 12:53 PM
And I could probably solo ragebringer now if I was max level and was still the best geared rogue on the server, but I wouldn't call the game soloable because I soloed a quest 25 levels below me.

neither would i, that was the point :P

teflondon
04-21-2013, 03:12 PM
@Sigh@ I loved EQ. Still have great memories of that game. I'm reasonably sure NO game will give me the same sense of adventure and mystery around each corner that EQ had. Course, it was one of my earlier ones and all us Oldtimers always looks back at were we came from with warm feelings lol.

For those saying blah blah blah about Defiance. It's a great game. Really is. But I'm done most of what I want to do in less than a month. That has never happened to me in any other MMO, not once :(

AZAG0TH
04-21-2013, 03:17 PM
Anarchy Online - Hands Down.

ten4
04-21-2013, 03:30 PM
Never played AO, so dunno. But people bringing up examples of say AoC makes me chuckle. It had major issues and they lied about many things but I never had a rollback in AoC nor lost items like in Defiance. Basically, you can't play this game and expect your progress to save. Plus your char can get corrupt and you can lose items. Plus if you pay for boosts and servers go down for long durations: it still counts.

These things are not just random little bugs, they are features in Defiance so it seems to be the norm.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 03:44 PM
@Sigh@ I loved EQ. Still have great memories of that game. I'm reasonably sure NO game will give me the same sense of adventure and mystery around each corner that EQ had. Course, it was one of my earlier ones and all us Oldtimers always looks back at were we came from with warm feelings lol.

For those saying blah blah blah about Defiance. It's a great game. Really is. But I'm done most of what I want to do in less than a month. That has never happened to me in any other MMO, not once :(

they're rolling out Everquest Next soon, we'll see what that's like. They also did the progression server thing, but that was a joke, people just plowed through it.

That's what i like about defiance. Mt Tam will be just as fun, and have people in it, unlike Kurns Tower, any Luclin zone, etc, that's ignored because we've farmed better weapons and the XP is low.

I wonder what EQ would be like, if it were done with horizontal progression... Damn, I'd really like to build an emulation server for it now and scale everything. Same with AO, so much content completely ignored now.

Booshy
04-21-2013, 03:52 PM
I never played Anarchy Online - but I do know this is the worst launch I've experienced since Vanguard. All mmo's release with bugs, but this is definitely the dirtiest launch I've seen since that game.

Eisberg
04-21-2013, 03:54 PM
There is a reason why Funcom got the name Failcom

Booshy
04-21-2013, 03:56 PM
they're rolling out Everquest Next soon, we'll see what that's like. They also did the progression server thing, but that was a joke, people just plowed through it.

That's what i like about defiance. Mt Tam will be just as fun, and have people in it, unlike Kurns Tower, any Luclin zone, etc, that's ignored because we've farmed better weapons and the XP is low.

I wonder what EQ would be like, if it were done with horizontal progression... Damn, I'd really like to build an emulation server for it now and scale everything. Same with AO, so much content completely ignored now.

My guess is that EQ would be pretty empty with horizontal progression. Sure there would be a few that may like it, but the vast majority of people that play games, ESPECIALLY rpg games, enjoy feeling more powerful and getting better rewards as they play the game.

IGears
04-21-2013, 04:00 PM
I just don't want to be forced to play with a group if i don't want to... I know its a major part of a MMO is being able to group with others, but i just hate it when a quest (main quest in fact) tells you you have to have a group to complete this quest or make it extremely difficult forcing you to group. With this in mind, I also dislike some of Defiance's main quests forces you to be solo when grouped.

I kind of like it when a quest gives you a recommended level. Makes it easier to solo, even when you have to grind to that level.

ironhands
04-21-2013, 04:04 PM
My guess is that EQ would be pretty empty with horizontal progression. Sure there would be a few that may like it, but the vast majority of people that play games, ESPECIALLY rpg games, enjoy feeling more powerful and getting better rewards as they play the game.

it's empty other than the current expansion zone, like most games with the uphill grind

Justin CarMichael
04-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Nothing can come close to Anarchy Online sorry.

No joke. Something awful did a review of it even though the devs and publisher tried their hardest to get everybody not to review it. Basically their review came down to...

Oh yes, there was plenty of Anarchy, but nobody could verify the Online part. Heh....

blurps
04-21-2013, 04:23 PM
@Sigh@ I loved EQ. Still have great memories of that game. I'm reasonably sure NO game will give me the same sense of adventure and mystery around each corner that EQ had. Course, it was one of my earlier ones and all us Oldtimers always looks back at were we came from with warm feelings lol.

And rose tinted glasses...Anarchy Online for example was a great game for the time but pretty much 100% grind. Before the expansions it was grinding missions 24/7 ( solo ones first, group missions didn't actually work until a year or so after release ) and after Shadowlands was released it was hecklers over and over and over and over and...up to lvl 220. For all I like to complain about poor storylines and the usual kill 10 rats/fetch the package quests in modern MMOs, that's still miles better than sitting in one spot for hours or days and killing thousands of hecklers. Leveling in DaoC was pretty similar, although there were at least some quests. These days I just wouldn't play a game like that anymore.


Never played AO, so dunno. But people bringing up examples of say AoC makes me chuckle. It had major issues and they lied about many things but I never had a rollback in AoC nor lost items like in Defiance.

Yea, the launch of AoC was pretty smooth actually, no clue why people are calling it a bad. The game just lacked content starting in the mid level range already, that's a completely different issue though.